NASA Astronaut Sunita L. “Suni” Williams

When missions hinge on precision and preparation, what happens when things don’t go as planned? From launch delays to life aboard the International Space Station, this conversation explores resilience, teamwork, and trust in rigorous training under pressure. Originally recorded on September 2, 2025, featuring NASA astronaut Sunita “Suni” Williams and award-winning journalist and host of NPR’s On Point, Meghna Chakrabarti.

Transcript

Suni Williams:
We're not supposed to lose any thrusters. So. So when we start losing 1 or 2, they're like, this is not a good situation.

Suni Williams:
So that's the first thing that we did to slow down the situation. Get to a safe spot.

Voice Over:
From the USS Constitution Museum Leadership Forum, veteran NASA astronaut Sunita "Suni" Williams joins WBUR journalist and host of NPR's On Point, Meghna Chakrabarti.

Voice Over:
In 2024, Williams launched with Barry "Butch" Wilmore on a flight plan for days that stretched into months while a safe return was engineered. She takes us inside the cockpit to show how leaders decide under pressure, slow the moment. Trust the crew. Work the plan.

Suni Williams:
Was an interesting day.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Well, it is interesting because I think all the things that we want to know about leadership under pressure, um, happened during that multi-hour maneuver. And obviously the docking was ultimately successful. But in the process, there were some, let's call them anomalies. And we're going to get a little sort of technically nerdy here to get the pull it out, the leadership questions. So you were the pilot and the commander was Butch Wilmore, and there was a period during sort of midway through, I think, roughly the docking sequence where we hear from Mission Control that there was an RCS jet fail reaction control Systems thruster. What are those? And what was it? Was it serious at the time?

Suni Williams:
So day one, when we after we launched, we do a lot of burns to get to the right place for the next day, which is the really important day where you come up on the docking axis and you're ready to dock to the space station. So during the and during that time frame, we actually had some time to fly the spacecraft, each of us. So you really fly it from the left seat. So Butch was initially flying the spacecraft and he did some maneuvers, and then I got a chance to get in the left seat and do some maneuvers, and it flew wonderfully. The jets on that spacecraft are right sized, and it flies like a little sports car. When you want to fly it. It does everything you want to do it. And it just like points and it sounds right. So it wasn't a good situation.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
The public, insofar as what we could hear because you can watch obviously all what everything that NASA does, they have the live stream. So insofar as what the public hears, I've always admired that everyone's calm. Oh yeah. But what I want to know is early on, when we first start hearing that, oh, there was this RCS jet failed. There was no action. Something was out of range. So as a safety precaution, I think some of them shut down.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
What was your first, you know, sort of thought process when this thing that hadn't happened before? On the other docking sequences of the unmanned versions of the Starliner happened when you were on board.

Suni Williams:
So, you know.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Let me let me. Sorry. How do you judge the seriousness of a moment like that?

Suni Williams:
We're not supposed to lose any thrusters.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
So.

Suni Williams:
So when we started losing 1 or 2, there was like, this is not a good situation. And, you know, I have some procedures and I'm the systems guy, so it's in front of me is my book. And I'm looking at all the the thruster pages and trying to understand what's happening, but just maintaining, you know, an eye on the space station, because that's where we were looking at the space station. So we had a little bit of a verbalized conversation like, this is not going well, this is not going well, but there's a space station right there. And like the what I was talking to the guys on the Constitution, we have this thing called Gordo, no radio procedures. Like if you lost your radio in an airplane, what would you do? Something has to be predictable. So we had these Noro procedure. Thought process is, um, if we don't talk to the space station, then we're going to require these jets to keep us in an attitude so we can come back to Earth and we don't know what is actually happening. So our non-verbal communication was we're going there. And we both sort of knew that like.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Being is.

Suni Williams:
We're yeah, we're going to ISS one way or the other, even if we don't have communication with the ground. And it doesn't mean we were going to dock to ISS right away. We were going to fly it in to see how controllable the spacecraft was. Until we got to a certain point, we didn't even have to talk about it. We were like, this is what we're doing because we knew the, the, the situation we would have been in if we backed away.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Yeah. Okay. So interesting. So there's non-verbal communication, which actually was a form of decision making between the two of you, um, who was technically in charge at that moment.

Suni Williams:
So, um, since we had communications with the ground, the ground is actually in charge. So the flight director in mission control is in charge until we we lose comm. So then Then it's butcher's in charge. Um, but there's we. He's always told me, and we always feel this way about each other. You have 51% of the vote. You have 51% of the votes. So, you know, we, you know, like we we had that that going in, uh, scenario with each other through all the training that we had worked on beforehand. So if anybody didn't like what we were going to do, we needed to talk about it. And, you know, luckily we're at a point where it's not absolutely dynamic. We were what you mentioned earlier. We we are outside of a thing called the keep out sphere. You have to stay outside of 200m from the space station. And that way you know that you're not going to hit anything. So we were outside of the keep out sphere when all of this was going on. So we had a moment to actually have the conversation and talk to the folks on the ground.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
But then it really gets interesting.

Voice Over:
Don't chase the why. Work the what right in front of you by time. Regain options.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
So then I mean obviously you train for every sort of for as many possible scenarios as you can, but what is it about the training that do you think helps you manage when anomalies that you haven't trained for actually happen during the year?

Suni Williams:
So very interesting. So it's foundational skills, right. It's sort of like you're already been tested or you've worked through, particularly with your training team and your mission control team, when you have anomalies and how you're going to handle them. And we already have divisions of labor of what we're supposed to, what we are going to do. Butch had his hands on the controls. I had all the systems displays in front of me. I have the book open since his hands are busy and I'm leading him through what we are going to do. And I'm looking for this. And I didn't really have to look because I knew this is not an anomaly that we normally have, but let's talk about what we've lost because you sort of forget about or not forget about, but put aside. You compartmentalize why this is happening. I don't know why. Mission control isn't telling me why they have a lot of data also. So let's deal with what we have right now and make sure we can be okay. So you get to like you want to work on a safe space. Until then, you have a little bit more time to figure out the answer of why and how you can correct it.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Okay, I have to say, it didn't occur to me that you didn't know why, right? Because we're talking about this retrospectively, and Mission Control is trying to figure it out. Well, I want to get to, like, how they tried that in a minute. How do you manage what a normal person would feel is rising anxiety, not knowing why? Something potentially. I don't want to say catastrophic, but, um, a real wild card comes up, right?

Suni Williams:
I mean, it's not a happy feeling, so it's but it's a, you know, one of a little concern, but you got to you got to just sort of put it aside a little bit. Yeah. Um, you know, we have a we we are the two of us. That was it, you know, that we're in that spacecraft that we're actually operating a spacecraft. So just to go back a little bit. So at about just the technical side at about 265m, they told us to take over manually. So Butch is actually flying. His hands are on the controls. He's watching the space station. We have little eyes. Vision system that has to look at the space station such that we can rendezvous. There's a system that's called Vesta that we need to keep looking at the space station. So he keeps he has to keep it pointed at the space station. And the reason we did the manual is because that way we have control. If we kept it in automatic or automation, then the automation is going to go, you've lost this, you've lost this, I'm going to kick you out, and then you're going to go away from the space station if you stayed automatic. So that's the first thing that we did to slow down the situation, get to a safe spot. He goes manual. He's flying it. He's holding the controls. We could stop in space relative to the space station. We're all we're all flying around Earth 17,500 miles an hour. But it's formation flying. So if if the space station here and we're here, we can stop our relative motion and just stay there.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Slowing down the situation. That's absolutely really interesting. Okay. Um, just for, I don't know, maybe you all know this. I didn't until relatively recently. I mean, it's supposed to be able to dock autonomously, which it had done before.

Suni Williams:
Tutorials one time before? Yeah.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Yeah. So, um, and but there were built in portions during the docking procedure where you were supposed to go manual, but this was not one of those.

Suni Williams:
This was not one of those.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
So, so as I was watching, there is this moment where I think you're about 260 to 65m away from ISS, and Mission Control says they're going to do these hot fire tests. Yep. Okay. And so that is like individually firing these thrusters that weren't.

Suni Williams:
Working individually, taking them out of the set and then put firing them and then potentially putting them back in the set.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Okay. Now I would like to talk about communication and information flow during that. So there there you're you and what you're holding and and mission Control is saying okay, well we're going to he's he's actually calling out the particular thruster that they're testing, right. Right. Right. Okay. So can you talk to me about that, like how that was working in terms of keeping the information flow going so that the tests had the greatest chance of success?

Suni Williams:
Yeah. So again, I was talking about the vision system. So we had to keep facing the, the the space station. So he has Butch has his hands on controls. I have the systems again. And I'm doing the comm between our, uh, flight director or our Capcom capsule communicator sitting right next to the flight director. And in that room, there's all the people who have all the different disciplines and prop, you know, propulsion and guidance, navigation control. Those are key people, as well as rendezvous, who's monitoring our profile and where we're supposed to be coming in toward the space station. So he's got all that data coming in his ear and the prop and the GNC people say, we're shutting that thruster down. Um, and so it's off and Butch is flying, and then they're like, we're going to hot fire it. fire. And so then there were like three, two, one. And I'm like, oh, hands off the control. So he I'm, I'm the middleman here because he has his hands on the control. So he's not being able to talk because you have to press a button to talk. So I was doing that as well as watching the systems and, and making sure he knew exactly when, because his eye, his eyes and his concentration was on staying looking at the space station.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
During even during the test.

Suni Williams:
Right. Well, during the test. So you have to take your hands off the controls. Okay. So he lies.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
You have to. Correct?

Suni Williams:
Yeah. He lines up the the spacecraft looking at the space station and then mission control calls. I call him hands off. Then I say hands, hands off. He has to take his hands literally off the controls. And the spacecraft is floating around there, and we're hoping it's not going to float too far away. As they shut the thruster down and started back up again.

Voice Over:
Clear roles and shared trust move teams, cockpit and ground, seeing different parts of the same picture.

Suni Williams:
We had an extra orbit, so we usually plan for a docking at a certain time where the sun is behind you. You don't want the sun shining in your face, just like you're driving down the road. You don't want to have the sun in your face so you can't see what's going on. And those vision system needs to be able to see also. So we timed the the docking when the sun is like above and behind us through a through a time frame, we don't want to also don't want to really dock in the dark. Yeah, we can, but it's not optimal. And so we have an hour and a half to get around the earth. And so we have one docking window. And then a little while later we have a second docking window. So we skipped the first docking window because we knew it was over. And that was also not really communicated. But we knew like, hey, we have problems. We're not going to dock on the first docking window. We're going to have to wait till the second time around to get this all done again, sort of non-verbal, but we've done enough in the simulator that our team is a little bit of a well-oiled machine and can actually understand exactly where we are during those big changes in the trajectory.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Yeah. So for those of you who love detail like me, 11:15 a.m. Central time was the first docking window on that day. The next one was at 1233. Yep. Um, so. So before we get back to some of the, the sort of the technical things that were happening.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Was there a moment or maybe in training where, um, or how do you manage moments where there's actually disagreement between you and your crew member or.

Suni Williams:
In a dynamic situation like this? Uh, we fall back on our training and we trust each other. So I am serious about the 51% of the vote. So somebody will verbalize. I'll verbalize. Hey, hands off the controls. If he's not ready, he's going to tell me no. And then we'll wait. And I will convey that to Mission control. So it is really in a dynamic situation. I'm not going to even ask why. You know, there's no time to ask why dynamic things. If someone says, no, we don't do it. We just wait till the next moment to have a conversation about it. Um, I don't remember. I have to listen to the tapes whether or not I ever told them to hold off, or he told me to hold off. Um, but that communication seemed like it. With all of that understood, went pretty well up and down from the spacecraft to Earth and in between our seats.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
But the trust has to be there.

Suni Williams:
The trust has to be there.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
And is that something that's intentionally built during during during training?

Suni Williams:
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I think the way we we train for these flights, we wouldn't be successful if we didn't trust each other in those scenarios. I mean, there's definitely times where, uh, in training, um, I'm handling an emergency all by myself, and he just has to keep his hands on the controls. Like, if we have a fire or a deep breaths, I'm doing a bunch of things, and I'm just calling out because there might be a switch on his side over there. Just turn that switch and he doesn't have time to think about, like, hopefully he knows the whole scenario and hopefully I know the whole scenario from him, but it doesn't even matter. Like, if I'm telling you to do that, then you just do that. Yeah. Yeah. And we built that into all of our training and our team has exercised us enough that we went into scenarios where where we're handling multiple emergencies. And so you just have to trust the other person.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Are there specific tactics or exercises that NASA incorporates into training to help build that trust? Or is it simply just training over and over again?

Suni Williams:
No, I mean, it's a build up process, right? So you handle one maybe. So the way we do it, like you'll handle one emergency and then you have both have time to,

Suni Williams:
you know, suss it all out. But then eventually then they'll do another one that two and then then three, whatever at the same time. And so you it builds up because you know, you've already the other person has the skill set. So it just takes a little time. But you get there okay.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Yeah. So you just have to do it over and over again.

Voice Over:
A test of process, not bravado.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Okay. So then as you're sort of parked essentially relative to ES at 265m and the these hot fire tests.

Suni Williams:
Are.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Happening. Are happening. Um, it was very, very interesting to me that after each one they asked you, Mission control asked you if you could see or hear. Yeah, the thruster being fired, that they actually relied on your human senses. Oh, yeah. Over whatever. Telemetry information.

Suni Williams:
And I never I didn't think about it at the time. But but of course, we're in a little Cannes and they're right around us. So, yes, you can hear and feel, you know, you can hear hear it more so than feel it because it's small thruster. I mean, the the nozzles only this big. They're pretty small. I was just looking at them two days ago or whatever last week. Anyway, the nozzle is only this big. Um, so. But you can hear them because you can hear actually when the valves open. Because essentially it's hypergolic fluid. So as soon as the valves open, these two fluids come together, make a little explosion. And, you know, out goes the thruster so you can hear that valve opening and that happening. And I didn't realize it at the time, but we had, um, less thrust. It wasn't like the way we'd have trained. It's either working or it's not working like there's a clog. Right. So it's either working or it's clogged up and it's not working. But we could hear the the valves move. And what we didn't realize were some of the thrusters were just degraded. Not not just I shouldn't say that they were a lot degraded, but they just were not putting out the amount of thrust that they were supposed to. So the automatic system was like cutting them off. They were saying, you're not putting out 50%, so we're getting you out. So then that's why some of them were failing. They were still maybe putting out some thrust, but not the whole amount wasn't enough. It wasn't.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Enough. And I think ultimately there were what, five that had gone out. Mhm. Um, and they were able to get what four of.

Suni Williams:
Them.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Were.

Suni Williams:
Back.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Back to fully like optimal working condition.

Suni Williams:
Yeah. And we have to get to 200m uh, to, to switch back over from manual to automation. So. So once we got them all, as many as we could back when. Absolutely not. Uh, then we were able to fly into 201, 95 to 205m, and then automation can take it back. Now that was a different conversation too, because once we've gone manual, we've done this in the SIM before, in the simulation, before, once you've gone manual. Do I really want to go back to automation? Is automation causing the problem. And I don't want to have that be my problem again, particularly as we're getting closer and closer to 200. Is that keep out sphere around the space station. So we both were like.

Suni Williams:
I don't know.

Suni Williams:
But Mission Control was like, yes, we're going to do this because the way we see the data, it looks like it'll be fine. The automation is not causing the problem. It's the thruster itself.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Can you talk more about that, though? Because we so far have been focusing on the teamwork between you and Butch. But obviously, as you said earlier, like there are hundreds if not thousands of people on the ground who are part of this whole process as well. Um, when you have that a I don't know, moment. I mean, how do you put to rest, um, doubts or concerns about decisions being made in Houston?

Suni Williams:
Yeah, it's the same. I mean, honestly, it's almost the same as the 51%. But me and Butch are one entity. They're another entity, right? So they also have 51% of the vote. And we also know that we don't have all the data. There's no way they could display all of the, you know, the ones and zeros in our cockpit displays that the folks on the ground have. And so they could actually see some of the chamber pressures of the thrusters and knew like, okay, it's the thruster problem. It's not it's not the automation problem. Now we have to undo some of the automation. And they can do this that says if you only fire at 50%, I'm going to kick you out of the set. Uh, they can undo that. They can say, just just keep it in the set. Just keep it in the set. So that was part of the process too. We saw them changing some of the automation on the fly, as well as doing the hot fire tests. and you're like, wow, these guys are. And we knew them. We know them very, very, very well. They're they're awesome. And they they know the systems better than we could ever know them. But we have the whole conglomeration of all the systems, like an individual propulsion control engineer is awesome. They he knows every single thing about that, but doesn't put it all together. Like, Butch and I were putting it together and the flight director. And so we violated some flight rules because in the flight rules they said, you know, we have to have dual fault tolerant, which means you can be able to have two failures and you can still fly. We were not there and I think a couple axes, but we decided that was okay. We're going to take it in to dock as with what we had. So so our plan just to, you know, just to back up two seconds here to is like we we had decided what we would do is go into ten meters when you're, you're inside the keyboard sphere, which is a little bit dangerous because you're really close to the space station and it's huge. It's a football field. That's how big, how big this thing is. And so you're driving this capsule, which is about as big as this stage. Into the into that football field so you can get whacked with it with the solar rays and stuff if you're out of control. So our thought process, had we lost calm, and also the team on the ground had the same thought process, we're going to drive this guy into ten meters and just hold there and make sure that everything feels as good as it can be, just in case we had to fly manual and dock to the space station. We have to wait there anyway, because the docking system has to align itself and send some commands to make sure that the docking system which connects us is working okay. So the whole thought process from everybody was, let's get to ten meters and see what happens. If we're if we can't, you know, manage flying this we're backing out right away.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Oh okay. Okay. Now of course, given NASA's history, which is full of successes, but also the most some of the most high profile failures, um, you know, you could look at We in the media tend to look at everything in a negative light. Um, so I know, like when when NASA first announced that the reason why you were staying was because they deemed it not safe for the astronauts to come back when they didn't fully have a handle on why these failures happen in the media and the public conversation. It was like, oh, massive failure from NASA. Also, Boeing's on the line. ET cetera, etc. but isn't there another way to look at this? Oh absolutely right. And so far that this whole sequence that we just talked about was one of success in the face of possible.

Suni Williams:
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Could have gone a totally different way. And then it would have been, I think, what we would all call a failure. I don't necessarily call it a failure. I feel like it's a very big learning experience. We did some things that were not the way those thrusters had been flown before. We learned that as a result of this incident, we learned, you know, exactly how they're made. What small little things causes heating for the Teflon. You know, there's there's a lot of questions that were answered because of this flight, which they could have not had those problems in a couple different scenarios, and then they could have found those failures later, and it could have been much more dramatic and much more consequential. Right. So I think this was a really great event in that regard, but we just sort of ran out of time because the space station program has to have a rotating crew come up and another one come down at a certain time based on negotiations and food and clothes and all that kind of stuff. So, um, we just we actually just ran out of time by September. And so we had to make they had to make the call genuinely.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
How how did you feel when it was decided that you guys were going to be up there for longer?

Suni Williams:
Well, we were listening to the the data as it was coming in. We were you know, I, you know, right from the get go, I was a little bit happy.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
I know, you know, I was going to say, you.

Suni Williams:
Know, a lot of people were like, oh, you're smiling.

Suni Williams:
It was just because I love being in space. I love the space station, and there's just so many great things and fun things that we're doing up there. And, you know, it's just fun to be part of a team when they're doing when they're really doing good stuff. And I would have been a little I mean, just my own selfish self, a little sad to come home, but very happy for the program if we actually got the space craft to come home. But I was happy to stay just because, you know, this is a great place to live and work, right? Um, as the summer went on and we are listening to the testing because we were involved with it, like, not that we were doing anything, but we were able they were able to dial us in, you know, good thing for zoom and other other activities that were able to listen into the ground conversations. You know, we still had some questions ourselves. And we had those conversations, you know, offline, like.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Hey, what questions were they? Um, so.

Suni Williams:
So we had questions like, we're testing a thruster. How about if we test the whole package of thrusters, the way they're mounted on the spacecraft? It's just like you're testing one part of your engine of your car. but it's not encapsulated in your whole car. So is that really going to work the same way? So the initial conditions and how the whole, um, how the spacecraft operates, is that contributing to the problem that we're having? And it was so so we didn't get to the point where we were testing it like it was actually being flown entirely. We tested only a single thruster. And so I think the writing on the wall was getting clearer and clearer to me. And Butch up there, like, they have a lot of explaining to do, Lucy, before we get on that spacecraft. But in the meantime, you know, we used it as a safe haven because it was a little bit sick spacecraft, but it was still our way to go home when we had all the people up there. And so that was a consideration in the back of our minds. Like, if something goes wrong with the space station, we are going to go in that spacecraft and come home. So, you know, we're all we're weighing all the risks here. Also, it's a it's a risk to the bigger, bigger group than just me and Butch. Right. It's a risk to the whole space station. What are we going to? What do we do? We'll have to go home in that spacecraft.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
All of you.

Suni Williams:
Know, just me. You just. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Not all of us. No no, no. I might be confusing the subject here a little bit, but I think there was some contention and some debate on the ground. Also, like, what is the safest thing for the whole International Space Station program? Do we put those two in that spacecraft and send them home, or do we keep them up on the space station and then we don't really have a great way for them to get home? So then what do we do? So we actually had seats that were made out of essentially styrofoam or foam on the Dragon capsule, because we didn't have enough seats. Once Starliner left, we were we were taking that risk that we didn't we didn't have a spacesuit. We didn't have a seat. We were strapping ourselves into essentially styrofoam on the on the floor of the Dragon for reentry. Yeah. For so that that was like that for a couple of weeks until our spacecraft came up and we had seats. And so that's that's what I'm saying is like there was a lot of debate, there's a lot of debate. And you have to look at all these sides of the picture. And I, you know, I, I pity the poor people who have to actually make the ultimate call about what we're going to do, because, you know, they have to explain that to, you know, our family and our friends about what the situation they're putting us in.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
You know, there's the decision made between sort of the nucleus team. Then there's the broader team on ES. And then, of course, there's the public. The public. NASA as a whole. And your families. Yeah, I mean, I can I can definitely understand how an unexpected 200 plus day absence from family and friends is challenging. But part of me is still that stargazing kid who was like, that would.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
Have been so awesome.

Suni Williams:
It is nice to get away from your family and friends.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
No, it's.

Suni Williams:
Like it's like, no, it's like.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
You're.

Suni Williams:
Like, you get to spend that much more time on the international space. I miss my dog.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
What I've heard here to tonight is so interesting to me because obviously there's there's practice, there's building Trust. Uh, there's sort of healthy debate leading to ultimately, we hope. Um, decision making that's not inflected by emotion. Right.

Suni Williams:
Yeah, exactly. And, and I think we all knew there was a lot of motion flying last summer. Um, with all of this and all of last year, which was a little bit crazy, too, because the decision had already been made. So that seemed weird to me. And Butch, because we're already we're there. Right? So there's, there's let's move on with all of that too. So yeah, I think there's lots of levels of decision making. And at some point in time, you know, just to go back to that one point that I was making about being in that other spacecraft, you have to realize where you're you're places in it. All right. What is what is our what is our greater purpose? And I think, you know, being in the Navy, that foundation sort of gave me that idea. Like, you're just you're one part of it. And knowing that, like, I'm a helicopter pilot, I do logistics and I deliver people and mail and all that kind of stuff. You know, everything from eggs to bombs. But then there's the other people who are doing other things, and I'm supporting them. And then there's, you know, another service, the guy on the ground, and you're supporting them. So I think that was the benefit that me and Butch had were both Navy guys. So we have lived in a world where you, like, I'm just one piece of this, and I have to be part of the bigger team that's getting the mission done and the job done. And so we have opinions. Of course we are knowledgeable, but then at some point in time, you have to let the people who have the biggest picture make the call.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
That is such a good point because being in the services you are naturally, I'd say hopefully imbued with this sense of purpose. Right? Which sounds like it was really key in terms of, um, the various forms of leadership that were needed to handle the situation. Um, I wonder what has being an astronaut and this part of your career, which came, of course, as you said, after your naval service. Um, what are some of the experiences that you've had that that have changed you, that will, that will stay with you, that have maybe altered your your perspective, not just on on yourself, but your fellow human beings?

Suni Williams:
Yeah. I mean, I think I'm very fortunate. I've had three really great missions and a lot of a lot of folks, particularly in the shuttle time frames, sort of did the same thing over and over. Not that every time it's different and new, but I mean, it had some very different spaceflights, and I think they're the reason I felt very comfortable was because I learned so much from each of them. My first one. Um, I, we were only up there with three people, and I actually the second part of it, I was up there as an American with two Russians. And that that was really to me like one of the momentous times. I was like, oh, crap, I'm I, I could really screw this part up.

Meghna Chakrabarti:
You know, like like I have no one to.

Suni Williams:
Fall back on. Well, mission control, of course, but nobody up there because I was up there with an American. And he laughed. And then I was like, oh, now it's just me. Um, so that really felt a lot of weight on my shoulders on that first mission. But I think that set me up to do the next one, which was great. I was the pilot on a Russian Soyuz and felt super confident to be able to get over there and speak Russian and be very in tune with how this spacecraft works and be the guy to start the engine, you know, shut down the engines. Um, felt very confident about that. And I think that's what led me and my military and test background to me and Butch, both to be the first testers of this spacecraft, which I was pinching myself. I'm like, are you kidding me? This is like the, you know, test pilots dream come true that you have all these opportunities. And so just when I think about it, I think about how much growth potential everybody has, you know, take one step, then try something new and then try something new. And, you know, you'll just surprise yourself of what really great things you can do when you push yourself a little bit, um, being an astronaut and being in space, I mean, it's incredible, I love it. I wanted to go back. I wanted to stay because I wanted to have the moment to be able to look out the window. I wanted to have a moment that I could write emails to my family and friends to, like, take them on the journey with me, because not everybody gets to do it right.

Suni Williams:
So to say the least. So I wanted.

Suni Williams:
To really share that. And that's the that was the part about long duration missions or staying up in space, which was so rewarding to me. I got to send pictures, I got to explain what was going on, and it was it was just really neat. And it I mean, the biggest perspective coming from this mission at the end, and I was mentioned to a couple of people over at the cocktail hour. So if I'm repeating myself, I apologize. But people are nice. People are good. We care.

Suni Williams:
I mean.

Suni Williams:
That was what I got out of this mission.

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Preparation is respect. Trust is earned. Calm is a practice choice and shows up in the human details.

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This conversation is a part of the USS Constitution Museum's Leadership Forum, a flagship series of live conversations with leaders in business, civics, the military, science, and culture. Each forum is a special evening in Boston with a cocktail reception followed by an on stage program. Subscribe to the USS Constitution Museum presents for future episodes, and visit USC

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