Bestselling Author & Historian Nathaniel Philbrick

What can past crises teach us about leading through division and uncertainty? Drawing on the lives of Revolutionary-era figures and other defining moments in American history, this conversation explores character, risk, and moral choice when the stakes are high. Originally recorded on November 13, 2025, featuring award-winning historian and author Nathaniel Philbrick with USS Constitution Museum President and CEO Jeff Draeger.

Transcript

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You know, it's funny when I think about leadership. I don't know if it's because I grew up in a family of teachers, but I think there has to be an element of being a good teacher in a leader. There has to be that ability to communicate and and get a sense of your audience and then impart that information to them. There has to be a teaching element and great teachers can be taught. But I tell you, it's like being an actor. You have to not get yourself caught up in that seem seemingly panicky unfolding of events. You have to have the ability to slow it down in your own head, think about it, and then make a decision and sell it and and execute it. And, you know, and those are, those are skills that, you know, can be taught. But the thing of it is, and it's like being in combat. Apparently, I have not only gone gray in your service, I have gone blind. Welcome to the USS Constitution Museum Leadership Forum, a leadership podcast mini series featuring dynamic conversations with leaders who embody the values of honor, courage and commitment. Thank you for being here. This episode features award winning author and historian Nathaniel Philbrick, whose storytelling brings defining moments in American history into sharp focus. From whaleboats in the Pacific to the siege lines of Boston. Philbrick is the National Book Award winning author of In the Heart of the sea, and a New York Times bestselling writer whose work reminds us that leadership is often forged before the ending is known. In this conversation, Philbrick joins USS Constitution Museum President and CEO Jeff Drager for an exploration of decisions under uncertainty, the discipline of focus and humility required to keep a republic in tact. Let's step into the room, as Jeff begins with a simple question that opens the door to something deeper. What's one item that you like to keep in your office that either helps to make it feel more comfortable and, you know, personalized to you, or that gives you inspiration? Yeah. Just to show you what a nerd I am, uh, I, I need to have in my office, uh, at arm's length away, Herman Melville's Moby Dick. If for me, it's it's my personal Bible. And, you know, and it's kind of a family tradition. My dad, uh, who's still with us at an assisted living facility on Nantucket. He was an English professor at the University of Pittsburgh, where I grew up. Pittsburgh, the maritime capital of the universe. And and he had a copy of that book in his study. And I don't know if I feel like it's a familial imperative, but that for me, that, you know, no matter what happens in life, no matter how good or bad it gets, if that book is nearby, we're gonna I'm going to get through it where I would like to be in San Francisco. The San Francisco Vigilance Committee, a a group of vigilante, uh, San Francisco businessmen, took over San Francisco. They they formed an army, took it over. And at the navy base in San Francisco was based one captain David Farragut. And, um, and I mean, talk about leaders. I mean, this was a guy who, you know, this was a potentially catastrophic situation. These guys had an army of 5000 armed people that had taken over the city. They hanged two people. They would hang two more. And, um, what do you do? Um, and the governor wanted the military to go in, but the, you know, he the federal government had to tell him to go in. And so what does he do? He he didn't have the US Constitution, the Constitution, but he had the John Adams. And he stationed the John Adams right off the waterfront of San Francisco, um, to, you know, let people know that the military was there in case something happened. And I would just love to have been in those streets. You know, it was just a fascinating time in a fascinating place where, you know, history was just boiling. From the talisman on the desk to a city on edge. Let's move from color to pattern across shipwrecks, revolutions and battlefields. Where does leadership reveal itself? Yeah. Um, you know, every. I tend to write about leadership issues. It's, uh, it really began for me with In the Heart of the sea, where, um, this is a whale ship very early in the history of Pacific whaling that got rammed by a whale. The men took to their whale boats. Uh, they were 3000 miles off the coast of South America. No one knew anything about the Pacific Islands. Uh, to the west, which would become Nantucket Backyard in a matter of months. But they didn't know anything there, and they had to make a decision. What do we do next? And, um, Captain Pollard was a brand new captain. This was his first captain at sea. And, uh, you know, you just, uh. And that what unfolded there? You know, I don't want to go too far in this because you have to buy the book if you haven't read it already. But with that, I began to read, you know, how so many pivotal things in history, in life hinge on issues of leadership and like what you were saying. So I've written about this whaling disaster. After that was a Captain Charles Wilkes, who led America's first exploring expedition, literally around the world. And, um, they they went to Antarctica, Hawaii, the Pacific Northwest. They created charts that were, uh, as late as World War Two were being used by the Navy in, in the Pacific Islands. They were the latest, you know, from 1840 and, um, and it was an expedition that was remarkable in what it accomplished. But Wilkes was a embattled leader. And, um, and, you know, so that that and then I went to, uh, Mayflower where, um, William Bradford, I mean, talk about a leader. And you see, and you begin to just what you're saying. You see entirely different, uh, situations, times, but you begin to see, um, you know, how what happens, you know, Custer. He was a great cavalry officer during the Civil War, but ran into problems when it came to the western plains, and particularly at the Battle of Little Bighorn. And what fascinated me about that battle was, um, you know, he divided his command in the face of a much larger force, which is not a smart thing to do. and, um, but and since everyone under his immediate command that there were survivors from the battle, a Little Bighorn, but everyone on what became known as Last Stand Hill died except for a horse named Comanche. Of these situations that are on one way or another, a survival situation, the decision will make a difference whether you know what will happen to people. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it goes wrong. But it's only in retrospect that you can look back and say, there, you know, that was the right decision, or oh, no, that was the wrong one. But it's um, inevitably, you know, you you, a leader to a certain extent, needs to be charismatic. Patterns help, but pressure compresses. What traits hold up when the clock is brutal and information is incomplete? You know, it's funny when I think about leadership. It's, um. I don't know if it's because I grew up in a family of teachers, but I think a good teacher, there has to be an element of being a good teacher in a leader. There has to be that ability to communicate and and get a sense of your audience and then impart that information to them. There has to be a teaching element and great teachers can be taught. But I tell you, it's like being an actor. A good leader has the ability, has certain charisma, has the ability to make decisions under tremendous stress. And that is really, really hard when things are happening at lightning speed. People want to know, what do we do next? You have to not get yourself caught up in that same seam. Seemingly panicky unfolding of events. You have to have the ability to slow it down in your own head. Think about it and then make a decision and sell it and and execute it and you know. And those are those are skills that, you know, can be taught. But the thing of it is and it's like being in combat, too. I mean, you're, you know, some people I remember talking to a retired Army major who was teaching at West Point and I was, uh, taught one of his classes, and he was saying he, you know, when he is in combat, he was, you know, been in Iraq and, and all of this stuff. And he said, it's funny, when I'm in combat, it's almost like things slow down around me and I see it. I, you know, where everybody's, you know, it's just there. And he says, I miss it, I miss it, and I mean, I'm not wired that way. I think I would I'm, I'm just too emotionally, you know, involved in everything. I could easily get pulled in various directions and lose it all, having that ability to see, you know, take a look around, understand what's going to work best, and then calmly deliver the orders. That's a real skill that yes, you can teach it, but I think you have to have that innate ability to be in a situation where all hell is breaking loose, and you're that one person who, uh, you know, is thinking constructively, uh, not just reacting to events, but trying to take control of those events. And that's and that's been a really interesting thing for me, going from book to book to book is, you know, we live with our cell phones. You know, we're instant communication. We take that for granted, you know. But during the American Revolution, you know, there wasn't an internet. There weren't cell phones. I mean, and, you know, you you would someone would get a get an order in the field knowing they would not hear back from anybody for 3 or 4 months. And you get an order. And the order was, uh, you know, came to you when circumstances were entirely different. And it's up to you to sort of go with what's unfolding around you and just can you imagine, you know, just not knowing. And you're not, you know, you don't know what your opponent is doing. You know, it's just a level of uncertainty that, um, I think we have a hard time I'm comprehending. And, um. And I think, you know what? I think the strength it imparted. We get so distracted now by everything. You know, it's just so much information coming in. We have this tendency to believe that our technology will solve it for us. But know at some point the human element has to enter in. And, you know, back in the 18th century, you had days where you could think about something without being, you know, on your own. You know, you wanted to know more, but you didn't have that ability. You know, now everything is just coming at you and how you figure out, you know, what's garbage. What's essential is really hard. It wasn't any easier in the 18th century. It was just very different. What happens when leaders face reality? Let's look at how they adapt. Seeing things as they are and adjusting while bringing their teams with them. In military circles and perhaps some others. There's a saying that no plan survives first contact. Um, how has seeing things as they are, rather than how you'd like them to be proven to be a strength in your analysis of leaders? Oh, it's it's the essential. It's the essential. Um, and to adapt to the situation. But doing it in a way that doesn't make it seem like you're, you know, making it up as you go along. But, um, that's the thing to do. Absolutely. You know, the it hits the fan and suddenly all your preconceptions, you begin to realize are not necessarily what happened. A real leader has that ability to say, okay, this is different from what we thought, But what do we do now? And that is so hard under immense pressures of of what to do next. And you know, well, I'm sure we'll be coming back to him. But George Washington for me is just the paramount example. Washington is the reason why I wrote a three books about the revolution. I was just going to do Bunker Hill, and then I didn't know what I was going to do. But then Washington showed up and and this was not the Washington and the $1 bill. This is a guy in his 40s. His hair was still red, reddish brown. And as I said earlier, he he thought he needed to deliver a knockout punch and see what happened. But that it it was impossible. They didn't have the gunpowder. It ended up being a siege that went on for nine months. Uh, and, uh, but, you know, he hung in there and he changed. And initially this was a guy who, you know, his father died when he was young. Um, his mother was a very strong personality. Uh, I think she was a lot like him. And they didn't necessarily get along really well. And he had an anger management issue as a kid, and he would very famously write down the rules of civility. And you see someone, uh, you know, and you see, you know, you see someone who begins to realize, yeah, I can't be mad at people all the time. I can't, you know, scream at them. I need to I need to change. And that is unusual. You know, most of us are who we are and then blame the rest of the world for not, um, conforming to our view of ourselves in the world around us. Washington had that ability early on to say, I know I need to change. I need to control this rage that's inside me. And he would do that, you know, not that he would snuff out who he had been by any means. That coiled. You know, intensity was always there. But what he was able to do was to control it with this tremendous will. And so you had this person who he was, you know, taller than everybody, handsomer than everybody. He looked the part. I mean, uh, you know, Henry Knox has this, uh, situation where during just before the Battle of Long Island, where the British are trying to basically intimidate Washington and, you know, they they bring in some officers to try to sort of say, you know, you really want to do this. And, and Knox and Washington basically, you know, blows them off. And, um, and Knox said, I'm paraphrasing here. He said he is as if he was something supernatural. You know, he just had that ability to intimidate when he wanted to, but also to inspire. I mean, he had, you know, he was he was a remote leader in one sense. Uh, Abigail Adams has this wonderful description of him after meeting him in Boston, saying, you know, he he he's he's aloof, but you have this sense of almost generosity in him. And that is a really tough line to be, you know, someone who is inspiring, intimidating, but you also think he's has your back, that he's seeing you. And so, you know, he comes into this thinking, we've got to fight. I want to. And he was a military guy. He wanted like, all military guys. He wanted to fight that battle where he wanted on the battlefield. And, you know, he had that victory and what he began to learn over the eight years of the American Revolution is that that he had he. That wasn't going to happen, because if he took his small, untrained army up against the British, the likelihood his he would suffer the defeat that would end everything. And so he began to learn, instead of going out there and being the the field commander of his dreams, he needed to play it. He needed to avoid a confrontation. He needed to play the rope a dope. It's all different now. It's no longer a colonial rebellion. It's a world war. We have the French. We have the Spanish on our side. We need the Navy. He saw that. We need the navy, the French Navy. But they, you know, the Navy goes into the Caribbean where the sugar plantations are. That's where the real money was being made. and this was a very terribly distracting and annoying to Washington. But he realizes this is going to take time. We need to work now. You know, to create, you know, allies. Those are that's a really hard relationship. When General Rochambeau, that great French general, would arrive that would ultimately help deliver the knockout blow in Yorktown. Those guys did not get along. You know, we have a tendency to look back and say, oh, it was amazing how they work together. And but it's kind of like Montgomery and Eisenhower. It was not an easy, uh, relationship whatsoever. The capacity to adapt is part skill and part temperament. Humility is the steadying force that helps leaders bring their teams with them and hold the center. And America, what America will be. Who knows? There are countless officers in Washington's army urging him to take over. You know, the Continental Congress has been dysfunctional from the beginning. And, um, you know, they were, you know, no one knew where the country was going to go for the you know, if you're going to lose everything, you know, if you let Congress these, you know, try to figure it out. But Washington said, no, you know, he wasn't about the power. He wasn't it wasn't about him. I mean, this is amazing. This is you know, he he led us through this revolution. And at the end, he just wanted to go home. He wanted to go home to Mount Vernon. And so it took Congress months to to get a quorum. They were so afraid that they were going to be attacked by their own army. They had moved from Philadelphia to, uh, to Annapolis. Quick note for context, we're going to jump briefly to the end of Washington's command when he surrendered his commissions in Annapolis in late 1783. Then we'll step back to an earlier moment that spring at Newburgh, when the Army was on edge and Washington had to hold the room. Washington arrives in Annapolis, and he he surrenders his commission. Uh, prior to this, King George had been told that this was Washington's intention. And he said, if he does that, he will be the greatest man in the world. Washington walked away from. He could have been a king. He walked away. He went back to Mount Vernon. He wanted to stay in Mount Vernon. We had the constitutional convention. He reluctantly, you know, presided over that. He did not want to become our first president. He realized, you know, he was a hero not only in America but the world. What was he? What was. What were the chances that he was going to be able to, you know, get a people who would revolted against, uh, England over taxes. How is he going to get them to pay taxes and fund their own country? And he comes in and they're like, oh, okay. Um, and he comes in and they're and they're pardon my French, but they're pissed. They're, you know. Oh yeah. He's just going to tell us to, you know, buckle up one more time, you know. And we're not going to take it. Now, stepping back to March 1783 at Newburgh, officers gathered as frustrations over unpaid wages and uncertainty about the war's end reached a boiling point. Washington entered the room to prevent a break with Congress, and he did it with a small, unforgettable gesture. And so Washington, you know, reads a prepared speech and they're all just. Yeah, right. Uh huh Huh? And then Washington. It's not going well. And then Washington has a letter from one of the members of Congress that is sympathetic to the plight of the officers. And he's he says, oh, let me read this to you. And by this point, Washington is now in his 50s. And like many people in his 50s, he's getting nearsighted. He's getting farsighted to the point that he can't read easily. And he's had, uh, a, um. I don't know if they call them optometrist, but a lens maker in Philadelphia make him a pair of reading glasses. You know, Washington is the biggest, most handsome guy on the planet. Uh, you know, like a Roman senator there, you know, and no one is. You know, and he starts reading this letter and he can't read the letters, and he puts it down, and he reaches in for his glasses And he says to his man, uh, apparently I have not only gone gray in your service, I have gone blind. Excuse me. He puts he puts on the glasses. And by that point, the sign of fragility in a man that had been through so much undid all of those upset men. And by the time he started reading, they were all weeping. Humility isn't weakness. It's what makes authority trustworthy. Before we close, Nathaniel Philbrick leaves us with one final assignment. You know Custer. He was a great cavalry officer during the Civil War, but. Ran into problems when it came to the Western plains, and particularly at the Battle of Little Bighorn. And what fascinated me about that battle was, um, you know, he divided his command in the face of a much larger force, which is not a smart thing to do. And, um, but and since everyone under his immediate command, there were survivors from the battle, a Little Bighorn, but everyone on what became known as Last Stand Hill died, except for a horse named Comanche, which is now stuffed at a museum in Lawrence, Kansas. Melissa and I have seen Comanche and, um, but in. When I am talking about the still point of just before all hell breaks loose, why the Custer's divided his command. He's. You know, he it's all beginning to unfold. I felt it incumbent to write about. What do we really know as people in these kinds of situations, and not only in the middle of the situation, but how we remember these situations. And so in. I have a paragraph there where I talk about what do you know? Where? Who? What is the human psyche in the midst of a situation like this? And what is who are. You know, what do we know? And we have preconceptions. We look around, we we, you know, all of these circulate. And in that paragraph for me, in which I talk about how all of this works and we make it and something happens and then we move on. And those of us who survive something like that are our are impressions of what unfolded at that specific moment. Change with us. Not that what happened Change. But we change. And as we change, we grow distant from what happened then. And I think that also gets to the essence of leadership, where, you know, it's you're in a situation where you've got all of this input, you have your own personal prejudices, you have your own aspirations. Some of us are, you know, some of us are looking at what's best for me in this situation. Some of a few, very few of us are genuinely altruistic. What is the best thing for everyone? It's this cloud of circumstances. We have our homework. Yes. Yeah. So find that paragraph. It's a chapter called Still Point. Please join me in thanking Nathaniel Philbrick for sharing his insights tonight. Well thank. You. It's so, so fun. Thank you for those questions. It was really fun. This conversation is part of the USS Constitution Museum's Leadership Forum. Our flagship series of live conversations with leaders in business, civics, the military, science, and culture. Subscribe to USS Constitution Museum presents for future episodes and visit us. To see upcoming forum dates and sign up for invitations. USS Constitution Museum presents the Leadership Forum produced by the USS Constitution Museum. Recorded and mixed by Travis Gray. Music licensed from the music. Bed and Lens. Distortions. Copyright. USS Constitution Museum.