The Good Shepherd

Here is episode four of The Full Story Podcast, where we unpack Jesus as the Good Shepherd and what that means for us and those whom we are entrusted to lead.

John 10:1-21

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everybody, my name is Alex, and I'm Jagger, and you're listening to the Full Story Podcast. Here we share stories of faith, struggle, and redemption that we feel God's stories tools.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

And as you listen to these episodes, we hope that they bless you in the time to pause and reflect with the Lord. If you haven't already, please follow us at the Full Story Pod on Instagram to stay up to date on what's new. Also, feel free to subscribe to whatever platform you listen to us on to get notified when we post an episode. We hope you enjoy, and this is the Full Story Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Yo! We're back. We back. Full Story Podcast is back. Um, you already heard our intro, so Jagger, just jump right into prayer, and we'll get started.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Okay, sounds good. Sounds good. Um, Father, right now I just want to come before you and we just want to say thank you so much for this platform that you continue just to give Alex and I. I just pray over this time that as we speak, Lord, that you would use us, that we wouldn't feel led just to sound good, or we wouldn't feel led just because we like the story, but we would be led by your Holy Spirit to share what you're asking us to. And maybe that's uncomfortable, maybe that's uncertain, but Lord, as we even talk about the Good Shepherd, the one who provides all things, we just trust you in this time to lead us, to guide us, and I pray over those who are listening that they would just take time just to pause and reflect about who you are and who you are within being a good shepherd in their own lives. Lord, I thank you again just for this opportunity just to be here with my brother. I hand you this time. I invite you into this space, into this room. We love you, Lord. It's in Jesus' name that I pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Amen. Amen. Real honest and open um to everybody listening. Neither Jagger and I have clear direction of where we're headed with this episode. Real.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Um, but well, I would say that we don't normally have super clear direction on how we go about each episode, but this one we don't have anything except for just a word, which is shepherding. Yeah. And I think in conversation with my brother, I've just seen how Jesus just continues to reveal himself time and time again within this character and has taught me a lot of practical ways, like a shepherd actually walks with his sheep. And so, yeah, we're just trusting that as we share stories and as we talk about what he's taught us, um, maybe it would be a time where you'd be able to learn, but also just see like how God has just been really faithful and good within your walk, because I know he has within ours. And I think that's just a character that we get to like that's a characteristic of him that we really get to to see within him being our shepherd. So I kind of want to start us off by kind of talking about a time when he or I guess a season in my life where he really revealed like him as a good shepherd. And um so a little bit about my story for those who maybe heard of it in the first episode. I I grew up not having my dad, I grew up not having my father. And so when I grew up, and as I was going to church and as I like was being a part of YFC, and people were talking about like a good father, it was really hard for me to understand really like what that meant. And so there was a season that came about in my life where I had hurt my ankle twice, and it was it was a time where I truly believed the Lord was like, Hey, I need you to like sit down, I need you to chill. And in that, there was just this analogy that had come up with in that season that like the Lord had kind of broken my legs. It was carrying me through that season, which is what a shepherd does to his sheep. For those who don't know, like sheep that wander off, the shepherd will often break their legs so that they don't wander off again, but they end up the shepherd ends up carrying them like on their back. And so that was a season in my life where I had to let the Lord carry me on his back, um, just to rest and understand who I was. But it was hard because it I just felt like in timeout, I felt like in trouble. Um, but in that I had to understand how like even God as my father is playing within this same character of like God being like the good shepherd. And in understanding him better within shepherding, I got to understand him as my father better about who he was, who he was to me, and what he wanted for me. And so at the end of the season, uh I'm no longer like in crutches, I don't have a boot or anything anymore. Um I'm in my room and I just start praying, and I'm just like thankful for what he's like done, like within the season, what he's been able to provide, how he's been able to show up. And I'm crying in this prayer, and I'm in the same room where everything had kind of already initially happened when my ankle was when everything was already happening, basically. I was in the room, and God had shown me me in my corner of my room, just crying, just afraid, scared of what he was doing, unsure of what he had planned, um, questioning how he was gonna provide. And he literally showed up in me seeing myself across my room and literally like looking at me and being like, he just showed me him and me in the corner, and he just told me that, like, I've been here this whole time.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

And I don't want it, I don't want you to ever forget that. Like, I don't want you to ever like believe that I'm not here. And so since then, obviously with work and stuff, but that has always been like engraved in my brain, like that Jesus has never left me. And and I don't know, it's just like this really beautiful picture of like even when I felt the most alone or most unsure about what he was doing, he was in front of me, like and and I think even now I've had to take time to be like, okay, Jesus, like where are you? Like yeah. Um instead of just getting so caught up within myself. Um and so I share that because an aspect of a shepherd is presence and wait, before we kind of well, I know that ties in with your story, but I I just had a question as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Um maybe just like elaborate on the story a little bit more. Because you said that was like at the end, right? When you prayed and then you saw like Jesus, like you and Jesus in the corner. Yeah. Um what yeah, like I guess just kind of describe more of what it was like in that season. Um, like what was that season like? Because we're talking about the good shepherd, but that doesn't mean like our situation is good. Oh it's kind of like rocky and and so I guess just kind of like share more of what was what was happening, what other things were happening in that season. Because obviously, like the analogy was like the bro breaking the legs, like twisting your ankle twice, but what else was kind of like happening in there that you felt like he was like like you could see that he was carrying you through.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

I think that was probably one of the the biggest things. But in in addition to that, um me and my mom were fighting um about just something we weren't agreeing on, and it lasted for quite some time. Yeah. So much so where like I ended up getting uh kicked out of my house, and then I also got into a car accident and I was irresponsible, so I didn't have insurance at the time. So we were fighting back and forth with an insurance company because I wasn't at fault, it was somebody else's, but I was just trying to figure out like how my life was gonna look like um in this in this season where I just was really uncomfortable. Yeah. I was also in a job that I wasn't I wasn't in YFC or at familia uh in the capacity that I'm in now. And so I was at a different job that I didn't like. And so my circumstances just were just not what I wanted. Yeah. And so it wasn't just like the ankle, but it was just a time where like my world just didn't look like what I wanted it to look like. Yeah. And um and I think for me, like I can get really caught up in what I don't have. Um, and I think even to like be transparent and honest, like that's kind of where I'm at now. Where like my life just doesn't look like what I would like it to look like. But that's also without saying like the Lord has provided every single thing like leading up to this point.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

And um I was gonna say because like you you just said like then it didn't look like my my life didn't look like how I wanted to. And then I was just thinking, like literally our conversation. It's like, well, it still doesn't kind of look that way, you know.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Um but I think that's the cool part is that like it he doesn't promise like that what he's leading us into is good, it's that he's good, right? And that we get to trust that he is good. Um, but that's hard when what's happening around us doesn't correlate, you know? It doesn't it doesn't add up. The girl math is not mad thing. The girl math is not like it's just not mad thing. And what would you say is the difference though? From then till now? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

I think there is a difference, yeah. But yeah, so you can share that.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

I think believing just that I think it's just understanding that better of yeah, like what I am experiencing or enduring or you know, witnessing in right now, one is temporary. I think that was probably like the biggest thing I learned within that scene. Like it's all super temporary, like it will pass. Um, because although in that time it felt like forever, it was really only like a couple months. Yeah. And so one that things do pass.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Um they do feel like forever though.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

But I I I genuinely think it was that, just knowing that he's he's what's good, not not what's around me, right? And and it and that was revealed in that moment in that room when I was praying and he showed up and he showed me where I was, right? Um, but he showed me where he was in the same time, yeah. And it was this understanding of like, okay, yes, what your life looks like now may be better or good than what it was a couple months ago, but that's not what I'm trying to like get you to focus on. I'm trying to help you understand that I'm good. And because I'm good, like I'm providing these things like as well. Like they're added. Yeah. You know, but don't, but don't dismiss the fact that just because your life maybe looks better, that that's all you need, if that makes sense. Like that's that's added, but it's not everything. Yeah. And so in this season, and being honest, like when I have thoughts about how my life could look like if I was somebody somewhere else, um, or working somewhere else, right? I know it's temporary. I know those feelings aren't common to me. But then also I know that God has provided way more than I could have ever done on like my own. Um and so it's like this invitation to continue to trust him, even in the face of like my discontentment, like even in the face of being like uncomfortable and just like maybe a little grouchy or just like disappointed with how my life or how I wanted my life to look like. Um, I think is these are just some of like the the main things that I've been able to learn like from that last season. But it's hard. Yeah, it's really, really hard. Because there can be all this like understanding up here, but there's no belief like in our heart. Yeah. And allowing him to connect those things, because he's he's the only one who can. Um takes time and a lot of like working out.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yeah. I know you were gonna go into like presence.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

I don't know if you wanted to also elaborate on that part of Yeah, that was just part of um that was just part of the prayer of being able to see him like show up. But even now, like knowing that despite the fact that my life doesn't look like what I want it, like he's still here with me. Yeah. And knowing that I think he also knows that the life that I have doesn't look like what I want it to. He's not shocked by that. He's not yeah, he's not thrown by that. He's not thrown by the fact that I have desires that quote unquote aren't being met like right now, right? Um and so being able to take that to him and be like, yeah, my life doesn't look like what I want it to right now. And there that's frustrating or that's disappointing, or you know, all those things. Um but knowing that he's there to listen, um, I think is really important for me, at least right now. And I think even too, what's coming to mind is that it's a man who's showing up for me.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

You know, it's not another woman, it's not another girl, like it's it's a man who's showing up for me that um is foreign to what I've seen like in my life. Because it's different when a man or a woman like comes into a space. The presence that they bring, the authority that they they they carry, like it's just different. And so, yeah, there's just a man who continuously shows up for me. And there's power, there's like strength in that. That's not on my own, but I just generally get to like I can just see me like leaning my head on him, yeah, and being like I just I don't know what you're doing, and I sometimes I I honestly don't know what I'm doing here, but I know that you've led me here and um would you either continue to do that or would you show me like maybe what I've missed? Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

I like that you bring up the fact that it's a man that's showing up. I th well a couple of things, and I'll kind of hopefully get around to it. I think one because like in your story, it's been women more prevalent in your in your story, and then I think two women that you've leaned more towards anyway, right? But I think that's be been because of like a lack of a man or a male figure in your life. So the fact that you bring up the fact that it's like a man showing up, it's it's what you need right now.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Um, and and I say like right now because uh I've been reading The Shaq and uh what's the guy's name? Oh Mackenzie. So Mac, you need to read the book, Shaq. I'm not gonna explain the whole book. I'm not gonna explain the whole book. It's good.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

I don't want to spoil it, but uh he pretty much It's like, and if you've watched the movie, you still need to read the book.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You really do. It'll make you cry. If the book, or I guess if the movie, I haven't watched the movie. Anyway, um, yeah, he it depicts like the Trinity, you know, the three and one, and so he goes to this shack, and then there is there is this big black woman, then there's Jesus as a man, like just a regular, just think about a regular Jesus, but like in overalls and boots and like a regular carpenter, like a modern day carpenter, and then this like little Asian lady that's like a flower, like a flower lady.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

She's like a gardener, right? Oh, yeah, a gardener, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Go gardener would be the word. So yeah, the big black lady is is is depicted as God the Father, right? That we know. And then obviously Jesus, the man, the carpenter, is depicted as Jesus, and then um yeah, the Asian woman is depicted as the Holy Spirit. And I remember in the book, he's like, I but I thought you were you were a man, like I thought you were supposed to be a man. And you know, God is like if I were a man right now in your life, like that's not what you need. Um because you know, a man that he would it it wouldn't bring as much sense of like comfort and yeah, like whatever like a woman brings doesn't come from a man, and whatever a man brings doesn't come from a woman. And I think uh the fact that it was depicted the way it is, it was it's honestly just really cool to like read it that way and be like, whoa. And honestly, that book has just helped me even understand and see God in such a different way and in such a different light. That when we talk about the Good Shepherd, there's just like ability that he has to adapt into the season that we're in to comfort us in the way that we need him to comfort us. For you right now, it's looking like a man, you know, to have strength, to have perseverance, um almost this sense of like strength and ability to know like you have what it takes to continue through this season. But other seasons, even you know, even when it was your ankle, it was maybe something you needed somebody that was more comforting and just loving and nurturing and caring for you instead of like that rough, like rigid or like rigid, like love of a man, you know. That still brings that like strength, you know.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Yeah, that's actually really good because even in the difference of seasons, I would say that even Jesus showing up within that prayer time, yes, he was he was he was Jesus, so he was a man, right? But I I think in that season with my ankle, God I think was more womanly, you know, because I remember I was walking really closely with one of our friends, her name is Gabby Mohika, and she was Habgabi. Shout out to Hobgabi.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

I don't know if she listens to this, but let's hope she does.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

We'll we'll let her know that she got shouted out because I was learning from her, and and so she was just really close within my life at that time, and she would check in and she'd call, and and there was one time she called, and I didn't know I needed somebody to call me. But she called and I was literally laying in bed, just bored out of my mind. And she calls me and I just start crying. And she just she's just talking to me and and just kind of caring for what I have to say as well, and so um yeah, I just remember her even as I'm like transitioning into like crutches and and like boots and stuff, she's still like just so intentional. Yeah. And whether or not that was her job or not, I think God definitely orchestrated, or I know that God orchestrated like that partnership for that time because he knew that I needed a woman, yeah, or an older sister or whatever, right? Um, and I couldn't necessarily take it from uh from a male who maybe would be more uh a little maybe a little rougher. I don't know how else to explain that, but yeah, I know what you mean though, but I think there's there's there's just naturally like a difference within the way that those two sexes like lead, you know, a male and a woman. And so um, but even looking at my life now, where Gabby is a little a little more removed, um, I'm not under her anymore. And there are just naturally like more men like in my life, and seeing how God's Persona and character has like shifted into that voice and less of like the nurture and the the Yeah, this like this motherly figure.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Yeah. That is really cool. I like that. Literally like Yeah, God can show up either either way and tap into either one. And I love the fact that he just like I said, he just knows the season that we're in and he knows what we need. Um and I think even um because we kind of touched on like presence, but like even touching on like the provision, like he's providing what we need in that season. And that's powerful. But even now, as like we're talking about the shepherd, I'm like, they're all important. Can we talk about like the three P's of like presence, provision, and protection? It I'm sure you could share a story or I can too of like seasons where he was protecting us. And yeah, they're just all encompassing because like if I think about those like three Ps, and we learn those like out of training. But when I think about all three of those, like I was the training is like for us, right? But if it's for us and I'm trying to protect or provide for somebody, well, I have to be present first off, and so that I think that's why I said like presence is the most important, but like Jesus just at all times is just operating in all three, that there isn't one that's more important, but he's it's all of them all at the same time. He's present with us, he's protecting us from things that we want, but he knows that we don't, like it's not gonna benefit us, and then also um just providing what we need in the season that we need it in, in the way that we need it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

And well, because if if if someone who's leading, right, isn't present, yeah, then they may assume how that person or whoever they're leading needs to be protected or needs to be provided for, right? But I think I think in those they they might sense like a lack of protection and uh pro and provision because not everything is being met. And so I think that's why it's so beautiful that that God knows everything because He knows exactly what we need and in what time we need it in, you know. And and so yeah, I think even there is maybe a more prevalent like a how would I say that? There's just more of an importance with presence because if you aren't, then how do you discern what needs to be protected and provided for? Yeah, you know, and maybe that's just because of the season I'm in right now, that's why I see the importance of it, but but yeah, I think too, it just takes time and being present is a lot of work, yeah. And I brought up my story about shepherding and how God shepherded me, but I also know that God has created me to have a heart to shepherd others, yeah. And and just like he has shown up and revealed himself to me as a good shepherd, he's also used me to display himself and it's it's allowed me to see others the way that he sees them, but then also in this like very meta thing, I've seen myself in those that I lead and shepherd. And yeah, it's a very humbling and sometimes gut-retching like experience to to do what we do and to and uh to lead the people that we do. But I honestly like it it I know that you have stories about students, and I definitely wanna wanna go there. I know for those who are really close to to us, like I I know I've shared this story before, but there was this student who had invited me into like his life, and he was doing football in this time. His name's Marco. Shout out Marco and we shared this with Hannah? Yeah, I think I have. I believe I have, and if not, um maybe I maybe I definitely should actually.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Well, you definitely will because shout out Hannah, Grace and Marco.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Exactly. Awesome. And so he's invited me into football games, and I'm gonna tell you this right now, he's not close. He's pretty far. So I'm I'm driving so far. I'm driving like at least a good 40, 45 minutes to go see this kid play for maybe an hour, maybe an hour and a half. And uh, but I know that me showing up meant like the world to not only him, but his sister and his mom. Well, there's this one game where his mom has to leave and and his team is losing really bad. And I'm just like, why is she not here? Like, why like she should be here? Like, I don't know how to like help him when he comes out of this game, and like just all of these thoughts of like, I'm just not the guy to be here for him like that. So the game ends, and I'm watching Marco on the field just kind of go to his other teammates who are down, and he's just encouraging them, and he's just leading without even knowing it, and he is supporting them in their loss. And immediately God's like, hey, you need to like, you need to be out there when he gets like you need to be, you need to be up, like out of the stands, so that way when he gets off the field, like he sees that you're there. So I just go up, and then me and Kate uh also go up and the rest of his family go up. And so I'm looking for him. I'm like, I know he's about to turn out, like, I know he's like right there. And sure enough, he like comes out and his friends leave him, and he like locks eyes with me, and he just beelines just straight to me. And so I hug him, and he just immediately breaks. There were he didn't say anything, there were no words said, but he just starts crying. And um I'm like, I'm not gonna cry, I'm not gonna cry. He also smells really bad. And um, it was a really beautiful moment that I got to have with the student, not because maybe like I was just able to comfort him in that time that he lost or whatever. What was beautiful for me was that God showed me that that's that's like not only who I get to be for this young man, but that's who he is for me. Like, despite my failing or loss, despite um like me just maybe feeling like I didn't do my best. Yeah, me smelling crazy and being super dirty, like he's just receiving me as I am, and he's not letting go, he's not tapping me on the back to like you know release the hug. Um, but he's just waiting for me to be like good. And so I just stayed with Marco until he was ready to like release, and then I let him go. And and and it was just this weird like parallel where I just saw how the Lord provides that for me, but I was able to do that for another, yeah, you know, and and that's always really crazy because I think some so many times like I've gone in my head about how I'm just not that person for those people, or there's somebody else that could do that, and God's like, no, like I don't know who you think's there, but they're not there, like it's you, yeah, and I've placed you there. So, and since then, like me and Marco's relationship has just been very different in the best of ways, right? Um, but just really grateful that the Lord aligned that to happen, um, because it showed me more of who he was, yeah. And I think also more of who like Marco is, too, like just this natural leader who who cares for others as well. Um, but in that moment it's not about him leading, it's it's just about him being who he is, just being Marco, you know. And so that's just one of the stories. But there's a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

It's crazy to hear because you you can talk about Marco, but it it's you.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

And then I could talk about like Memo and like a conversation I had with him a couple weeks ago, but it's me. Yeah. And I think that's get that's what gets really hard is when these conversations or these times, like, they're like not very removed from where you're at, like in the moment. Yeah. And you're just like, God, like why are you having me leave from a space of just like not feeling like I got it down? And and it's funny that when you ask the question, because it's like, well, I never asked you to have it down, or he tells you, like, I've never asked you to have it like good or down or whatever, however you want to say that. But yeah, I think that's just the real like that's the real money maker right there when when you're having to simply just be obedient to what God's wanting for the people you're leading because you know you're like right there with them. But then you also get to share that with them and and be able to like empathize and not just be this person standing on a mountain being like, hey, you should do this.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah. I was like just thinking about well, I I because we're talking about shepherding, and I don't want to go like super far off, but I'm just kind of asking myself, like what is what is the difference of like shepherding and discipleship? Are they similar or yeah, I don't know. I don't know if you would even have a an answer or a thought to that. But I'm just thinking about that right now. Or is because there's always this like, what is discipleship? And you could get like 20 different answers, you know, within the same space, and everybody will tell you something different. And so my mind's going to like no, like discipleship is it's shepherding. But I don't know if that's true. I'm just it's just a thought that I'm having right now.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Yeah, I think that's and that can be like a a way larger question, but I think in my initial thoughts to it are that I can shepherd people who maybe aren't very close to Jesus. Um I had a conversation with like this young lady, and for the sake of the story, like I I want to keep it like pretty broad. But she was really struggling one night with her parent, and it was all based out of a moment where she decided to disciple her parent. But her parent doesn't have Jesus, doesn't know Jesus, and it created conflict, like he created a fight. And something that the Lord had ha had me share with her was that well, we can't disciple people who don't have Jesus because it's it's it's abrasive. It it's like a lot for that person to experience like correction or redirection when they don't have Holy Spirit. And if anything, they feel attacked or put down or you know, or they take things personally, yeah. And so I see how maybe shepherding can be broader and maybe encompass different kinds of people. That's why I say like people who maybe aren't as close to Jesus, while discipleship involves people who who know Jesus or who have said yes to Jesus and are willing to listen and obey. Because another thing is for those who I have been discipling, when I've given advice or given direction and they've chosen not to take it, discipleship can't happen. Like discipleship is harder to happen from that point because it's like, well, you you're you're not listening to what I'm directing you to do, and not to say to be like this boss or like to be like this like person who just is bossing people around, but I do believe like in discipleship, like that person has to trust you too. And if they're not willing to like take the advice or at least discern like what God is wanting them to do, yeah, within your leadership, then like the discipleship kind of takes a pause, you know?

SPEAKER_00 35:47

So So would you say that before entering into like a discipleship like relationship with somebody, shepherding comes before that?

SPEAKER_02 35:58

I would because I think in shepherding trust is trust is like established.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Yeah. And I and I kind of ask that too, because like as you said, you can't like disciple somebody because the whole point in even when you think of like uh you know Jesus' command in Matthew 28, go make disciples of all nations. That's really that's geared to like go and lead them to Jesus, like tell them about Jesus, live a life like Jesus, right? Um, to obey all the commands. And so yeah, like he said that my mind goes there, and I'm like, oh, like that's so true. And then I go back to like the scripture in John 10. So this is John 10, 14, and it says, I am the good shepherd, I know my own sheep, and they know me, just as my father knows me, and I know the father, so I sacrificed my life for the sheep. This is 16. I have other sheep too that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd. And I I think of that scripture is that like there are others, right? The context is like his people are the Jew, like the Jewish people, the Israelites, but then the other people or like the other sheep not of this like sheepfold are the Gentiles, the rest of the world.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

But when I think about um he says, I must bring them also, they will listen to my voice. Like, he has to go and like get them and bring them in. I think that's where when we're talking about like for us in shepherding and like discipleship, like the shepherding comes before because in that they trust you, they kind of learn who you are, they learn your voice, they understand you, um, and you understand them. And then from that you start to just bring them closer to I think discipleship then turns to like I'm gonna point you to the good shepherd. So it's almost just like I've shepherded you for this season only to get you to a discipleship point to where I'm now like, here's the good shepherd. So now they're actually like in discipleship, being transformed, looking more like Jesus, walking and talking and knowing the scriptures. Um I think that's that's cool. Sorry, I don't know, my mind just kind of followed that.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

I know I and I agree because what I think about like an actual shepherd with his sheep, I'm sure there are sheep that that know he is providing all things, that he's gonna protect them. So they're they're close, like they're around him. And I feel like those are like the disciples, right? Those are quote unquote the disciples in that flock, right? Yeah, but that doesn't mean that the shepherd is just responsible for those who are close to him, but he has others who are still wondering, who are still lost, who are still going about and doing whatever. Um, and also think about how Jesus, even inviting his disciples, invited broken people who didn't fully understand or trust like what he was wanting to do, but still chose to follow him. And so much so that he chose somebody who he knew would betray him and then also deny him. You know what I mean? And so I think too, like making it super clear, like discipleship doesn't mean you're like getting it right all the time, or like that you're you got it down or perfect, but there is this ability to to know who Jesus is within discipleship. That I don't believe that shepherding necessarily um that someone who is being shepherded or people being shepherded necessarily have.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Yeah, you know. I was also thinking about like the uh the Samaritan woman. And I love how the chosen like depicts that scene.

unknown 39:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

But yeah, like Jesus, you know, in the scripture it says like he had to go, you know, that way. So he goes and then he meets the Samaritan woman at the well. And I think when we're talking like because the the shepherding and the presence and then like the trust that's built in shepherding. I think that's what's being built in that moment with her. You know, he's literally like telling her who she is, like about her life, yeah. And you know, telling her, like, no, I am like the living water, you know, that'll never dry up. Like, she's like, Well, where can I get it? It's like, hello, it's me. And then it finally kind of clicks, yeah, and then I don't know how many, I forget how many days it was. It was like a couple days that he stays in Samaria. But dude, I I just kind of wonder in that moment there wasn't, you know, I'm gonna disciple you, you know, in in all the things that you're doing wrong. And let me let me point you back. Yeah, it's like, no, I'm just gonna love this woman. I'm gonna care for her, I'm gonna be right here for her, the presence, the provision of providing like the living water and the protection. Um, what would the protection be? It's in there.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

I I believe all three elements are in there, but um, I think there's a protection in encouraging her, encouraging her to not go back to the life that she has.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Ah, yeah. So yeah, like all three elements are in there. And so as she's like realizing all of that, I could imagine the couple days that he stays in Samaria, like these people are just like, Yes, tell us, like, tell us more. And in that discipleship, shepherding and then discipleship is probably happening in that, and it's just like, yeah, that's what it is. And I think even when he invites his disciples, you know, I don't think I don't, I don't, I don't think right away or in moments he's just like rebuking them or pointing out like all their faults and all their all these these things. It's like, no, I think he's he's just building that relationship, that trust with them. And then soon, sooner or later he's like revealing himself through the miracles and the teachings, and they're like, We know who you are. And he tells them, like, you only know this, you know, like through revelation by my father in heaven. So, like, you know, like you know, but yeah, like I don't know, I don't I don't know, like shepherding is yeah, it's cool to think that it comes before, and then like real discipleship can happen. Yeah. But yeah, I my mind just kind of went to like scriptures and and just thinking about all of that and just kind of like bringing it together.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Yeah, that's good. Well, I know that you also have stories about ways that you shepherded and are shepherding that I don't know if you want to share.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

I'm trying to think of because so honestly, like the whole shepherding thing is it feels really recent for uh yeah, for me, like it just it's really recent because even is it before camp? That you had like we prayed or I prayed? I think it was before. So I don't know what like a couple weeks ago from now. You know, we're kind of talking about like, well, what are we gonna talk about on the episode and what is it gonna be? And I think you had brought up the word shepherding, but you're like, but I don't know, like it's just a thought. And then, you know, I actually had taken some time to intentionally pray. Um, you had asked me that night, like, but you have to actually pray. I was like, fine, fine, I'll pray for you for real. Um, but yeah, I remember praying one night, and and then the Lord just like just took me to John, it was like 10 10, 10 9. And well, I read, you know, I read the the chunk of like The Good Shepherd, but I knew then that I was like, oh, we're gonna talk about like Shepherding. Um and And then like you think the day after the verse of the day was John 10 9. So it was like super close into like what the Lord was like speaking, and you know, it could be a coincidence or whatever, but or I could just like be making it up or trying to tie something in. Nah. But I was like, oh, dude. Yeah, I think this might be it. And then we go into our camp, you know, our spring break camp. Uh that was what?

SPEAKER_01 44:27

Was that last week?

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Two weeks ago? Two weeks ago. Oh my gosh, that was two weeks ago. That's crazy. Two weeks ago. That's crazy. But yeah, so we go into camp. Um, and you know, I bring, you know, a group of boys, and it was a Friday night. It just like hit me. I was like, whoa. And what had hit me was that standing before me, because I was praying with the guys, was literally something that the Lord had spoken to me personally years ago, like six years ago, alone, and he was just like, hey, I'm gonna use you to like disciple young men. And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about, big Doug. I don't know what that means, but alright, like we'll do it. And I remember just like praying, so then six years later goes by, and I'm praying with these guys, I camp, and I'm realizing like, oh dang, my god, you're using me right now, and like your words are true, like this is happening, and so I was just like, I was in such awe that this is like happening right now, and it's it's because you had talked about how um, like with Marco, like you you could speak of Marco, but it's like speaking of yourself. One specific guy, his name's Royal Fox, so shout out to Fox if you listen to this. Shout out Fox Dude for real, incredible, incredible young man. Um I literally I see the same thing in him. When I speak of him, it's like I'm just speaking of myself. And I know that because with Zach, shout out Zach, our supervisor, he just tells me things about me that I'm like, nah, no. There's no possible way. That's not me. Yeah, but then I just like turn around and I go and shepherd Fox or disciple him, and I'm telling him the exact same things. And it hit me, I don't know when it hit me, but I was like, I'm you, you're me. I'm Zach, he's me. And this like shepherding discipleship is just moving down along to the next person that comes along, and I was like, that is that is beautiful, powerful. And I'm almost like thinking, you know, like yeah, God's so intentional with the people that he puts in our lives, because it's probably it's probably gonna hit closer to home than we think. No, for real. Like what they're going through, what they're dealing with, and um, yeah, like just Fox is I've just seen him kind of um he's really open and and people love him, and people like at school, I've just seen like engage with him. And even before he started to notice it, I would tell him, I'm like, no, bro, like you just have something in you. I don't know what that something is, but you have something so beautiful and so powerful and so magnetic that people just want to come to you, they say hi to you, they just tap you know, your shoulder with their hand, or you know, those small gestures that just seem kind of like whatever. I'm like telling him this, and then like five people walk by and say hi to him, and he looks at me like, I'm like, I'm telling you, like this is who you are, and still like this sense of or this lack of like belief that that's true. The fact that I was able to bring him to camp, and then he got to see the way people engage with me in space. He's observing and he's seeing, and he's like, Oh, I see what you mean. Like, there was a morning at breakfast, he was like, I see what you mean, and I'm like, Yeah, but that's not like just me, like that's you too, bro. You know, and it was so cool. I was just like, that is funny. So if I'm gonna talk high about Fox, it's like words that I can use of myself as well. And and I think that's just I don't know, the way that Jesus just just works in that. I'm just like, wow, wow.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

Yeah, when when God gives you the eyes to see people, it almost like I feel like when he gives you the eyes to see people, he's giving you just a piece of his heart for that person. Yeah. And it's heavy. I remember um I think the first time that ever happened was with Sarah. And it might have happened before, but I think the first time that I could really remember that he had kind of spoken that was when we were at your sister's house. And our friend Sarah likes to play like childhood videos of herself with her with her dad and with her mom. And and so she's playing them on the TV. And at the time, me and Sarah like were we are really close, but at the time we were just kind of finding ourselves like butting heads more. And as she's playing this video of herself in the restroom of her house, um, she's just singing when she's like a little girl, and her dad and her mom are just watching her, and she couldn't be like more herself in that video. Yeah, like she just couldn't be more like Sarah. God just goes, Every time you address my daughter, you're addressing her. Like every time you talk to Sarah, like that's the Sarah you address, like that's the Sarah you talk to. And I'm like I'm like sitting on your sister's couch, like, like about to ball, because again, it's like if that's how you see Sarah and are interesting me to then care for her, then that's exactly how you see me and are interesting others to like take care of me. Yeah, you know, yeah, and I'm like, Because there's nothing, there's nothing I don't know, there's just nothing more like um beautiful, there's nothing more beautiful, there's nothing more pure in that kind of love because there's just no expectation. There's no, she's a little girl, like I can't, you know what I mean? Like I I'm not gonna expect anything of a little like a little Sarah, but uh as I'm talking to like adult Sarah, like I get to have that same heart, you know. And um, yeah, I don't know, there's just something really crazy about shepherding. And I think it's just that. I think it's just being able to have pieces of God's heart for others that like are in your life.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

Yeah, I really love that that God gives us that and he shares. Or it like entrusts us with those, like with his own. Not to not to make us like in place of him, but to just literally lead him back. Oh to just lead them back to the good shepherd, so that they would know his voice, that they would know who he is, and I was simply I was simply another shepherd. Now like, hey, like, just go this way, but like here's the real sheep bowl that you want to be a part of, you know.

SPEAKER_02 52:22

But there really is nothing, there's like nothing more heartbreaking than sharing what God has for somebody and them not seeing it. And or just being like, dude, like, like this is who God has like literally built you to be. Yeah. Um like this is who like where God's like I can see leading you, right? And it's and it's generally not coming from a place of like higher than thou, like, or anything like that, but I think because you have the heart for that person that God has you see what God's wanting to do. And yeah, I think it's just really really hard to be able to to be in that space with others where it's like I'm gonna be here with you, but like the like I'm and I'm enduring this with you, even as you're like not getting it, quote unquote. Yeah. Um and just the amount of times like others just done that for me. Like in my hangups and like the things that I run back to, like he has never once been like, damn bro, like you're going back to that again. Like he doesn't he doesn't like belittle or like make me feel lesser. Yeah. It's just I don't know. This this thing that we get to do with each other where it's like I yeah, he's just enduring it with me, um, and is patient. Because I remember like conversations that we've had with each other where I'm like Alex, like this is who you are, and same thing, like you've done that for me, and and we're just like blinking at each other, like what you talking, you talking to me? Are you sure? And it just kind of goes silent, but um, but because that's like sometimes the hardest place to be with somebody, there is nothing like greater than being able to walk with somebody who like hears it from him, you know what I mean? Because yes, we are a vessel that he uses, but when it comes from him and his voice, like and it's so clear to that person, and they begin to move like in a different direction, like there's just something that I think, yeah, in ways I've felt like the almost like the weight, like of like being released off. Yeah, and it's felt really cool to be able to yeah, just to be able to be like um excited and celebrating like a son or a daughter who's come to find like who God is in their life, yeah. Because I remember even when you shared like what God has spoken to over you during high school camp, I was like, yes, yes, and I know it might maybe doesn't feel so big, maybe doesn't feel like the biggest thing in the world, right? But I think there are things that he's beginning to like um draw back, not draw back, but uh like kind of unravel within you to see like yourself a little bit better. And I even I even heard that in our phone call the other night where you're like just being able to see your presence being influential, right? And it's not that's not prideful to think that way, it's just knowing the way that God has designed and created you to walk into spaces. And and so yeah, to like be able to like do it, to be able to do life with you and for you to see it, it's like really freeing, and I think it allows yeah, it just gets me excited for what God continues to do, like in in your life specifically. Um but in in uh in others, like that I have been asked to shepherd.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

Yeah. So I I guess for um for one, like pointing pointing them back to him, and when they start like hearing his voice and knowing him, and like because you're saying like yes, like you're getting it. Yeah, it was just like recently, even that I had been like the students that I work with, just like pointing them back to to like Holy Spirit, to Jesus, to God the Father, and telling them like this is where I this is this is all you need. And when you actually start to spend time and know him and hear his voice, the things that he's gonna tell you are gonna be far greater things than I could ever encourage you with. Because it's coming from something outside of us physically, but at the same time is inside of us spiritually, and the things that he's just spoken over like the students that I'm with and and the boldness and the courage that is like coming out of them. Um literally, like Fox like spoke last week, you know, at Campus Life at our like uh club on campus, and he just spoke so so powerfully and so real and so honest. Um Julia just spoke as well, like super powerfully, super boldly, knowing that you know, God had given her a word, and and I was just hey, like waiting for the Lord to literally share that with her, and then you know, affirming the fact that like the Lord had been wanting me to ask her to like speak. And then even Emma, like Emma is just coming out of her shell and out of boldness, all of a sudden wants to speak at campus life and share her story, and I'm just like a hundred percent like you can't, but you know, these students haven't gotten to the place that they have because of Alex, they've gotten to the point where they're at because they're hearing the God, God's voice, their father's voice through the Holy Spirit. And when I think about yeah, just like shepherding and and talking about shepherding, that's what we need to be doing as shepherds. I'm gonna point you back to the good shepherd. And I'm not gonna take any credit for your growth, for the mountains that you've climbed, for the things that you've overcome. I'm not gonna take any credit for that, but I'm I'm gonna cheer you on and say, like, thank God that they hear your voice. Thank you, Jesus, that you're speaking to them. Thank you that you're using them and just transforming them from the inside out. Because what he does is so much more powerful than than what you or I could do as shepherds here on this earth, you know, with the people that he's entrusted us with. And the only thing that we really can do that's powerful is to say, like, no, I just pointed them back to you, to the good shepherd. And um like I like I had told you over that phone call that we had was that a couple nights ago. Um I think I told you that, but like presence is the most important for us, I think, here physically is that we would just show up. Just show up. Because I remember when I started at Youth for Christ, like at City Life, um it was my first year like really knowing who Jesus is and walking with him. And I had to drive far to the west side like 30 minutes. Um I was like, alright, well, I'll do it. Um and I remember I just kept showing up. I had a hard time connecting with the students. There was only like five of them. It was like during COVID. And I would show up, and then I'd go into the room, I'd play 2K with a student, his name's Mikey, and then he wouldn't talk to me. Like we wouldn't have a conversation at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Just played the game.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

I only I think I only knew his name because Houston would have told me his name, but wow. Like, I don't think I ever got a word out of this guy. Yeah, we would just get on the game, play one-on-one. Just I would beat him because I was really good at 2K. And that was it. Yeah, for real. I'm pretty good. Um, and then even moments when we were playing like 2v2s, he wanted me to be on his team, but he yeah, like it was, I never really got conversation with him. But I continued to show up, and for a whole year I did that. That's all I did, essentially, is what I did. And barely got any words out of him even towards the end of the year. And then by the next year, when I came back, Mikey was this a completely different student towards me. And it was it was like night and day. He just wanted to like be around me, he wanted to talk to me. He would actually like answer questions that I had for him, or if you know, I was just like checking in on him, like, hey, how are you doing? What's going on? This and that. I was able to speak life into him, and it was all just because I kept showing up. I was still very much immature, broken, struggling, sinful, lustful, like all of it. But when I would show up, the Lord was using it every single week for the sake of Mikey's life at that time. And even now I don't see him as much, but even while he was still in high school, the like the days that I would show up to City Life after they moved me um over to campus life, I would show up and Mikey was like attached to my hip. And it was and I remember I started realizing like it's presence. I have to show up. Because then when I don't, they're gonna ask and they're gonna wonder. And then if I miss again and again and again, all that trust, all that rapport that you built with them through that time that you were present, it starts to just kind of fade, diminish. And honestly, it probably would start to build something in them that would even further pull them away from trusting the next person. Will they just leave? Well, they're just gonna leave again, or this and that, you know. Um and so that's why I say like presence is the most important thing. I know we want outcomes, I know we want to see numbers, I know we want to see growth and like wonder like, am I even making an impact? And even as I share that story, like I whoever's listening, and if you're in ministry or you're just like walking with somebody that you love and you just don't know if you're even making a difference, like just keep showing up. You just got you have you just gotta keep showing up. Because eventually one day, like, who's to say that the Lord wouldn't won't use all that time that you showed up to impact that person's life?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:18

Yeah, yeah, even just thinking about ways to continue to be somebody who gets out of the way for the Lord to speak, like for this generation, because this generation is on fire, dude. Is on fire for the Lord. Something that Kate had said from camp, which I think is honestly really true and gonna be an opportunity for us to grow as leaders, is that she she felt like when she was at camp, she just witnessed these students be so hungry for the Lord, so much so that it felt like they were hungrier than the leaders. And it's like as we continue to lead a generation that probably is a lot more like curious and desperate for the Lord, like that should continue to draw us to greater dependence on who he's called us to be, but I think also who he's entrusting like this next gen to be as well. Yeah, but that requires us to get out of the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:22

Yeah, we need to you know just point them back to Jesus. We're we're in Gen Z, but we're like the older half of Gen Z. We got a little sprinkle of millennial in us, but even like in the scripture that I had read, you know, it says they will listen to my voice and there will be one flock with one shepherd. That's it. There's not multiple, there's not multiple voices, there's not another shepherd, it's one flock, it's one shepherd. And if we yeah, just kind of nosey our way to kind of block the From listening to the one shepherd. Um, we're leading them astray. I'd love to pray us out. Jesus, thank you for this time. Thank you for everyone who has just listened. I just pray over their lives right now. Whether it is that they are in a position of shepherding or they're being shepherded, um, or they're trying to figure that out. Lord, I pray that you would meet them where they're at, that they would know that you are present, that you are Emmanuel God with us. I just pray protection and provision over their lives. Lord, that you would remain with them, that your Holy Spirit would be activated within them, and that they would recognize and know that you are alive within them. And so, even in moments of doubt or of fear or just confusion, I pray that they would, yeah, just tap into the power of the Holy Spirit that leads and guides and advocates for us and counsels us and just leads us back to the Good Shepherd. That is you, Jesus, that is you, our Father in heaven. Um, so again, thank you for this time. Thank you for the words, and I just pray that it would just fall in somebody's heart, whether it be for encouragement or hope. Um and so again, just thank you, Lord. We just thank you. We love you, and it's in your name I pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:27

Amen.