Nightmare in the Hot Tub: Arrested for Murder After a Tragedy

This episode of Fit For Radio tells the unbelievable true story of Michael Hessemer — a night that began like any other and ended in tragedy.

What started as friends joking and wrestling in a hot tub took a devastating turn when one of the men drowned. In the aftermath, Michael found himself at the center of a criminal case, arrested and charged with murder. Suddenly, a young man with his whole life in front of him was fighting for his freedom against a system determined to hold someone responsible.

Michael shares what it was like to face trial, the weight of being accused of something he never intended, and the life-altering moment when he was ultimately sent to prison on a lesser charge. For someone who had never imagined stepping inside a prison, entering the harsh and often dangerous world behind bars forced him to adapt quickly just to survive.

But this story isn’t only about the tragedy or the time behind bars.

It’s about resilience. It’s about confronting your darkest chapter and choosing who you will become on the other side of it.

Michael opens up about the lessons he learned, the people he encountered inside the prison system, and how he rebuilt his life after walking out. It’s a powerful conversation about accountability, perspective, and the strength it takes to come out of adversity determined to be a better man.

A gripping story of survival, growth, and redemption you won’t forget.

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Gosh, it was just, you know, that mode it I was so sad. Uh, and I was, you know, still hopeful uh at that point, uh no idea of how long, and uh thinking that you know something could possibly happen, just praying to God and just everything you can possibly imagine. Uh an essential like meltdown, or you just kind of go into a uh are you hysterical? Absolutely. I mean, um it's a nightmare. You you you you're hoping it's a nightmare.

Growing Up in Lake Oswego

SPEAKER_01 0:44

This is the Fit for Radio Podcast. I'm your host, Drew Tiedeman, inside the Stafford Hills Club. And if you ever come and do my show, you'll see it is so pristine and clean in here. You got that salt water pool, and actually, right when I walk down the hallway, you can see the steam coming up. And I like to start the morning off a little workout over there in the freshly remodeled gym. And my wife, Amy, she loves the classes. And I think I just got signed up to try uh the Pilates Reformer class here, and I was notified that I might not survive that. So check it out, staffordhills.com. And if you tell them Drew said, it will get you half off your initiation. And I was just here last night as well. Um, such a good time and very relaxing. Hit that hot tub and a little of the old steam room. Right now, though, it is an interview that I've been waiting to do for 15, 16 years, something like that. And it is finally here. An interview with a guy I've known a long time, a man who has a story that most people can, I don't know if you can 100% relate to because most of us don't go through it. But my guest today is Mike Hessemer. How's it going, bud? It's going well. How are you doing? I'm doing good. Um I'm so glad that you're here. Now, you and I actually go way back. Um, we grew up in the same hometown, Lake Oswego, Oregon. And I think a lot of people, once they start to hear this story, will know of it or it will remind them of a story that kind of rocked the area at the time. Uh, Mike, I'm just gonna be blunt about it. Uh, an incident happened when you were uh just a young man in your 20s, uh, where you were you were put on trial for murder. Correct. And um it was it was something like I'd never seen before. And we're gonna, we're gonna kind of break down how we got there, what happened, what happened thereafter, and where we're at now. And it's really uh kind of mind-blowing that it is 2026 and that we are sitting in this room right now, and you and I have had many conversations about this conversation. So let's just get into it, all right? Yeah, let's do it. All right. Well, we grew up in that small town, like we said, a lot of shared childhood experiences, going to the same high school, same friend groups, um, an easy-going life in the 90s. Um, actually, I think you grew up, one of your houses you grew up in is just a half a block from my house that I live in now. Um, it is a tight-knit community. We talk about it on this show. It's an important part of the story because it's also a place where crime rarely happened uh back then or now. Um, every story is a headline story. And do you remember the good old days? Do you remember growing up in uh Lake Oswego where everybody was just packing a car seven deep, driving around in circles, going to 7-Eleven, riding skateboards, doing the whole downhill thing? You remember those days?

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Man, yeah, it was a safe, uh, nice community. Uh, you know, people often refer to Lake Oswego as a bubble, and you probably still do.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Yeah, it is called the bubble, and that's because it is kind of incubated from the outside environment. I mean, even you just go into Portland proper, it's a different place than it is there. And so I think we all kind of grew up with, I don't know if it's a false sense of of security, but definitely uh not always up on our guard. Um now you and I met way early, because I I also know your siblings. I know your family. You're from a bigger family, I'm from a bigger family. So I actually was in the same grade as your brother. Um, your sister, I also went to school with. And, you know, since I have siblings the similar age, it all just kind of it's a melting pot. And then, of course, when you grew up and I was introduced to you, you and I became pretty fast friends. And uh you were friends with a lot of my good buddies, and so kind of worked your way in from there, right? Yeah. Um, your brother even lived on my floor at one point when we were freshmen in in college. He lived there until uh the people who ran the house were like, we have to stop feeding this guy. Yeah. Um and so we gave him a few more meals and then he he moved on. But you and I also um as we got through school, you know, it's a it's a giant party in college and all that stuff. And then it was like kind of career time. Yeah. Right. So I went into radio and started kind of from the ground up, grinding up the ladder in radio. And and you were one of the few people who went like straight to work.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Yeah. Yeah. Uh well, most of our friends had, you know, folks kind of foot in the bill for school. And it was uh, you know, it was just me. Uh come from a large family, and um, and so I was always working and trying to go to school and it just uh, you know me from working at the skateboard shop. And then uh that turned into wow, I can't afford to live like this. So and you know, kind of got into sales from there.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, because I remember you used to work at the skateboard shop across from my work. So like when I'd go get food at the mall, I'd come stop by there, and you were always up there slanging like skate decks and snowboard coats. Yep. Um, which was kind of it it fit your personality then as a young guy, though. I mean, you kind of had that easy go lucky, catchy with a longboard. Uh you had a little of the old broski in you. Oh, yeah, definitely. Uh, which actually is part of the reason why you were endearing to people and our friends, you know, we would always kind of I I always saw you in that light as always smiling, always, you know, just carefree. Um mistakes along the way, but still carefree and and a good friend to have. Um now, as we as we kind of like started to move on there, um eventually you leave Eugene and you move back to Portland. Yeah. Yeah. Um when did that go down?

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Uh excuse me. Um, I was about 23 years old. Uh and my mom uh is going through some, you know, health issues. So I'd moved back to Lake Oswego, just transferred from uh one car dealership to another one.

The Night of the Incident

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Okay. So you're selling cars and uh you're grinding away, you're in the sales lane, which did fit your personality. Um now, once you move back, this is the kind of the part of my life where I'm separate from everyone else because I'm in radio and I'm just kind of tied to the tree, kind of, you know, like when you get a radio job, you can't just like roll out. And I wanted to be in Portland, um, but it was during a uh it was during a Wild West party time where everybody's out on the weekends, everybody's partying, staying up late, doing the whole thing. And I was kind of the guy who the majority of his friends had moved home or moved to California. And so my life slowed down a little bit. I still partied and I still had a good time, but I was missing um the fast lane of it. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like I I kind of and some friends actually went as far as to describe me as boring. And I was like, it's not that boring, but I appreciate that. Yeah. Um, I think that was a way of saying that safe and responsible, uh i.e. boring. Yeah. Um, but that's kind of the path that we were on. Now, things take a change though. Um, and on on one evening, now um it's so strange to me because I wasn't there, but I just I can remember a phone call that came into me after everything we're about to talk about. And and I remember being frozen in time. And I think some people will also be there when it comes to this. Now, this story involves two other individuals, which we're gonna leave their names out of it for now because this is your story, and and they have the right to their privacy and their legacy, and out of respect for families and those people, uh, we're gonna be ambiguous with their names. Um now this is something that definitely split a city and a friend group and all that, and it's something that has been worked through over time, and you'll see why. Um let's start at the beginning of the evening of when everything kind of went down. Yeah. Um, what was the plan as you get into that evening, uh, the day of the the events?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Gosh, uh, it was the the day before the Super Bowl. Um, and uh guess it was, yeah, 2008, uh right before a recession hit. Um and uh we were just uh kind of in uh party mode. And it was like, hey, we're yeah, have no real plans and we're just kind of hanging out and you know, uh kind of partying leading up to Super Bowl Sunday. And you guys, do you go out to the bar? Were you at a were you at a strip club where were you? Oh man, well, well, both. Um yeah, so we were, you know, kind of at our apartment and uh and then at um and then at a bar and a strip club, which is very um embarrassing to have to later admit, you know, in a trial.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Uh yeah, well, young men and well, and ladies when they're you know in the party lane, you end up at these places. It's partially a novelty, but it doesn't it when you're trying to build character in any situation, it's it's a bit of a tough pill to swallow.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Oh, absolutely. I mean, uh so like even describing this, I'm I'm uh just thinking in context of my you know 23-year-old self and and just uh you know, uh as we you know build this environment, having that in the forefront.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

This is yeah, and I mean just trying to be completely transparent with you, just because this is why it's important, is it gives you context of the evening. You know, it's like you you know those nights, and everybody who's ever partied knows this is where a night starts to get on and it gets crazier and crazier and kind of takes turns and gets fuzzy at times. But then, you know, the next morning you talk about like, I can't believe we were there or that we did that, even though it's not it's not your daily character. You don't leave the car dealership to go sit at the rail, but in context of any party, yeah, you could end up there. Exactly. And that's where you ended up. Um now you guys party, party, party, and then you decide that you're gonna go after party. What's the plan?

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah, at that point we were like, hey, let's uh go back to our apartment complex, um, you know, and go over to my place and just kind of, you know, kind of hang out and uh and you know, party a little bit longer and probably, you know, eventually go to bed and uh then it's Super Bowl Sunday, and then probably wake up with a headache and and you know do it all over again.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Um so when while you're over there, um you guys at some point you decide that you're gonna take a trip to so you're at you're at a big apartment complex that's well known in the town, sits way up at the top of the hill there on the backside near Portland. Yeah. Um now you guys decide you're gonna go to the hot tub. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

So well walk me through it. Well, I mean, it's it's hard to even walk you through all this because by this time we are just, you know, blotto, just completely obliterated. And um, you know, uh it would be a better idea to go to bed. Exactly. At this point, we're, you know, browned or blacked out. And uh, you know, the the idea is let's go get in the hot tub.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

And it's just uh And I feel like a hot tub is already a bit of a recipe for disaster because if you've had a couple drinks, you get in there, it's like a crock pot, it makes me dizzy and not feel good.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Exactly. I mean, you know, you later on find out the effects of hot tubs when you're encounter a situation like this, you know, hyperthermia, um, especially if you get in a hot tub that you don't know is like 108.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Um so you guys get in the hot tub, and it's you and two other of our friends. So they're not just like random people, they're friends. Everybody showed up together as buds. Yep. At one point, it's just you and one other friend in the hot tub. And from what I gather, and I I'm I don't want to put words in your mouth, so you say whatever, whenever, but you guys get in like a a water chopping fight. Yeah. Uh like the what the what you you know when you're in a pool and like your brother's smacking the water and it's shooting it up into your face. Is that what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Exactly. That's what appears to be going on, you know, later on. Because there is a surveillance camera. Yeah. Later on. So, you know, at this point, I have just, you know, my my memory due to, you know, just being, you know, intoxicated or maybe even trauma at this point now is I'm, you know, understanding more about PTSD. But um, yeah, uh, it appeared just to be, you know, just a like a water, you know, splashing, like you're in the water with your brothers and sisters splashing back and forth.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

And the reason why I do have some insight into that is I have seen this video, uh, and we'll get to how that's even possible. But it's it's just it's context that, you know, what starts off as as quite innocent kind of um back and forth eventually leads to what would you describe it as like when you see the video? Uh, is it a wrestling match? Is it, you know, what what exactly is going on from what you're seeing?

SPEAKER_00 14:31

From from my perspective, knowing, you know, me and uh just the uh the spirit of the night, yeah, just turned into like a horseplay wrestling match.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

And those things can kind of those things can kind of escalate in a hot tub too, because it's not like so. If I'm wrestling with you in the hallway, it's all very temperature controlled. Where you're in a hot tub, I just feel like and everybody's been using whatever they've been using to be up all night. They're they're all juiced already. Um, so do you have what what are your memories from in that moment? Because in the video, it almost looks like a jet wash, you know, like almost like um somebody turned the the bubbles on because it's it's 2008. The cameras aren't necessarily like they are now, like from when I was watching it, like it's not like ultra HD. Yeah. Um so what do you remember? Because from what I gather is there's this scuffle, and then at some point the two of you separate.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Correct. Yeah. The you know, the memory of that is just for me is gone. But just knowing, you know, uh what you know after the fact. Yeah, after the fact is, you know, it's stopped. You know, I think that uh if you're overheating, two people are overheating that are highly intoxicated, and it was just like whoa, you know, and uh a separation. Yeah. Of like, wow, let's, you know, both of us are feeling, you know, a little bit woozy here, and you know, let's go to, you know, opposite sides, you know, self-preservation mode of like, wow, let's, you know, take a breath here.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

And I that's what I remember as I remember you two separating and basically to two separate sides of the hot tub. And at some point, though, it almost feels like you're falling asleep or or something. Uh what do you, when you see the video, what do you see that next part as?

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Gosh, I see myself, I also see our our friends on the couch at you know, five in the morning where they're in that like you know, head nod, head nod mode where they're half awake, half asleep, you know, falling asleep, uh, getting ready to essentially pass out. And um, and and that's what that's what I see, and that's you know, what I I know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

And at some point, um, the other man in the tub goes under the water. Yeah. Right. So he I'm guessing the both of you are feeling similar, um, exhausted, nodding off, and whereas in you're still somewhat coherent, he goes down. Correct. And so as he goes down into the water, there's it seems to me that you're you're still oblivious to it at first. Like that when he goes under there. Yeah. Um what do you at what point do you realize he's under the water or do you do you and what happens next?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

What happens next is I have no idea, you know, perception of what's you know ahead of me. Um and what what's even happening. And um, you know, I just see myself. There's even uh bubbles uh being blown uh you know in the video if you if you watch. So uh there's me nodding out, falling in there. Um, and then in the video, uh, you know, it shows my me pulling myself out and uh just you know kind of crawling uh away, which showing that I'm you're you're equally exhausted at this point. Exactly. And uh and and just passing out. My next my next memory is like my so you fall asleep there. Yeah. Okay. On the concrete for like I was, you know, it was uh off camera, partially off of camera for, you know, for it was almost like, I don't know, gosh, ten minutes of laying there. Okay. Um, and my next memory is my my first memory of, you know, uh of any kind of like sobering event. It just kind of shocks you back into the world. The cold yeah, I just remember the cold concrete um in that um indoor pool hot tub area and just you know, jolted back uh to reality and and seeing uh your your friend, the person that you're just having a good time with, um, you know, under and having no concept of time or perception of anything um going into like panic mode.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

So when you panic, what do you do? Because this is this is a critical moment in what will end up being a trial for your freedom. Yeah. What what happened once you're once you're here?

The Critical Moment and Aftermath

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Well, once once I'm in that that very moment, it's you know I he's under get to him, you know, jump in out the water, jump in, pull him out, no idea how long he'd been under, um, and then screaming for help, um, trying to, you know, pull him out. Uh, remember, you know, that and eventually, you know, getting him out screaming for help and um, you know, call 911, you know, we need uh help, and then trying, you know, any kind of memory of what CPR looks like. Um, and that's when our other friend who wasn't, you know, had had stepped out with another person we were hanging out with that night, had, you know, kind of come in to um to assist.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Wait, can I back you up for a second? And am I incorrect? And wasn't there a point where you walked outside the door? Did you ever walk out and back in? To get the door for uh and that's the only time you walked out. Yeah. Okay. Because I think a lot of people are under the perception that you left the facility and returned. Is that that's incorrect? That's incorrect. Okay, and then I think that that's good to have clarity there. Yeah. Um and it's also worth pointing out if you watch this video on YouTube, you're looking at you and you're like, well, you just pull somebody straight out, but there's like 30 pounds of pure muscle on your body now that was not there in 2008.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Oh, at that point, uh, just to yeah, put things in perspective, I was uh like 150 pounds maybe.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

150 if you've you know on your heaviest days, really.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

On my heaviest days. I mean, uh and so that's you know, probably like 10 pounds of like beer pudge on me, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yeah, I was gonna say your fighting weight would be like 125 if you were cut.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Wrestling weight, it would have been way less.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

And but when you look at what happens with you, this muscle comes on. So 40 pounds later. Yeah, exactly. It's the Fit for Radio podcast, and it's brought to you by the Stafford Hills Club, ranked the number one health and wellness facility in the Portland area. And when you get here, you can tell exactly why that is. They've got this quality saltwater pool surrounded by chairs and a little grilling spot outside ready for spring and summer. And you want to get in here, get yourself a family membership, an amazing kids' club, and they actually cap those memberships so that you don't have to be searching for a chair all summer when you're out at the pool. You have room to enjoy your membership at Stafford Hills, where they have the premium indoor and outdoor. Door tennis, the high quality workout facility upstairs, great classes, and so much more. So rep where you just want to pump some iron, maybe you want to go read a book by the fire. It's all here at Stafford Hills. Check it out today, staffordhills.com. So now that we're clear that you only get up and go over there to to get the door for our other friend, what happens when when he gets in there?

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Um, you know, call 911. Mind you, this is a long time ago. I my memory's really choppy of that moment, but it was panic mode. Get your friend help at this point. And so he's been pulled out of the water at this point. Correct. Yeah. And we're we're trying CPR, we're doing everything we can. We're waiting for the um the paramedics.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

And so as you're you're trying and it's not successful, and at this point, you're also a little hazy on how long it's been because you also passed out. No idea. So I mean, it could be a long time, it could be a couple minutes, it could be anything.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Yeah. You're hopeful like it's a couple minutes, but yeah, it's the worst possible scenario, your worst nightmare and and first introduction of the frailty of um of our existence.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Exactly. And, you know, life is just about the thinnest of margins. And, you know, I've known you forever, and so it's different for me in this interview because I know what you is in your heart and what kind of person you are. And so it didn't make it just doesn't make any sense to me that that the narrative could be written that it was malicious or there was intent, because that's who plans it that way, right? No. That's not that's not normal behavior. And I knew that you and him were friends. Yeah. Um, so it it wasn't making any sense on that level. I want to ask you, as he's laying there and you guys are trying, and you've notified the authorities and they're on the way, the human in you, not just the I want to know obviously the compassion part. I know we've discussed that many times about how you feel about the incident and everything, but what's going through your mind like as a human being? And there has to be an an element of self-preservation and fear of the unknown, and or was, or were you still just locked into the moment? What was going through your head as you waited for help?

Crisis and Confusion

SPEAKER_00 24:29

I I gosh, it was just, you know, that mode, it I was so sad. Uh, and I was, you know, still hopeful uh at that point. Uh no idea of how long, and uh thinking that you know something could possibly happen, just praying to God and just everything you can possibly imagine, uh, an essential like meltdown, or you just kind of go into a uh are you hysterical? Absolutely. I mean, um you you can never prepare yourself for a moment like that, and then to to be confused and then to like be around your first uh the first person that has that you've known that has passed away that that close and in proximity. And um, it's there's nothing you can you can uh do to prepare yourself for for that moment, you know, this person that you you know, like a friend, you love this friend and uh a person you've been with all night, and all of a sudden there you're it's a it's a nightmare. You you you you're hoping it's a nightmare.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

And it it is, it's the worst scenario you could be in, especially when it takes place in a part where you don't have all of your memories, you know, like because the confusion of it is well, you're you don't know exactly what's happening, you know, like there is surveillance and stuff now to kind of walk back on, but you know, walk me through it. Like who gets there first? Police, fire, ambulance.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Yeah. What happens? Fire paramedics uh show up first. I'm I'm holding the door open so they can, you know, get through. Um they go in there and they they're they're doing everything they can to assess the situation and help. Um police show up uh and you know, start looking. Um they're asking me what happened. I I have no idea. I'm I'm saying uh there's there's security cameras you can go look at them uh and you know, offering that, like I have no idea. But if you want to know, um you you can it's gonna be on there. It's gonna be on there. And uh, you know, whatever trying to be helpful in any any kind of way, but also it just um devastated as unable to truly communicate and like sit down and have a conversation. Exactly. You know, those those moments where you sober up instantly, but you're still being affected by um everything. And now it's is it turning to morning?

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Is it still dark? It's like five or six so the sun is coming up, it's starting to get light at this point, yeah. And it's kind of like a dawn is breaking on a whole different chapter of of a a lot of our lives, yours in particular, obviously the other guys who were there, because um this is it it it took one guy who was laying there. Like, did how long did they work on him? I I'm you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

No concept did they take you guys away from them, uh him or Yeah. I think uh our friend was probably, you know, still um there that but I was I had initially let him in, so they they had us out in the lobby, I think, or beside me. I'm not sure if he was out there also.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

And um, you know, at some point they come to the realization that they're not gonna be able to save him. Yeah. And did they relay that to you immediately?

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Yeah, I I could hear them kind of coming down the hallway and saying it, and I was just, you know, more mortified, mortified, hysterical at that point, and just crying and uh thinking about his family at that point and just any any person's, you know, just the fallout of that and the the gravity of the situation was just, you know, starting to sink in, but you you can't prepare or or you know, brace yourself for that.

Criminal Charges

SPEAKER_01 28:15

And you, you know, you didn't know this when you got up in the morning and you got ready and you got dressed, but you never get to go home after the incident.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Well, actually, uh Or do they? Do you they watched the police initially watched the video or just, you know, the uh the impression was horrible accident, man. Like go home. Uh we'll ask you more questions um later. And so they they sent So they'd sent you home. They sent me to my yeah, my apartment, that same apartment complex. So I went home and just, you know, was Upside down. Upside down, just went right in my room, couldn't call anybody, couldn't think, couldn't, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

How long did you how long were you home before they came back?

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Um probably like uh no real concept, maybe like an hour. Oh, so they don't they they don't leave for long? No, they uh they're there and uh a district attorney had come in and uh and overruled everything. Yeah, and said, hey, we should, you know, go talk to this guy. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

So they come to your apartment and they question you there?

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Yeah, they said, hey, you know, uh, we'd like to ask you some more questions, kind of the the quintessential. We need you to, you know, kind of come downtown. And give us a statement. Yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

So did they come pick you up? Were you allowed to drive down yourself, or how was that?

SPEAKER_00 29:36

They picked me up, but it wasn't like you're under arrest or anything like that. It was, you know, pick you up, take you to the the hospital to see if you have, you know, um injuries and get your blood and urine and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

And the whole deal because they wanted to know everything that was happening. And and that's what happens when when somebody passes away, the rules change completely. You know, like if the person survives, they can round the edges a little bit, but when somebody dies, I feel like it really it really turns things up a notch. Yeah, correct. So they take you to the hospital, do they get all those things, and then where do you go from there? Um from the hospital, they um they took me to um county jail. And that's where they book you or they question you, or um so like when did they tell you they're gonna charge you with something?

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Well, after they they took my blood and and urine, um, they started asking me questions about, you know, what's in the blood, what's in the urine. And that's, you know, when I uh kind of went into like a self-preservation mode, was like, hey, do I need an attorney? You know, not wanting to admit of the recreation things we were. Because you guys were drinking and doing drugs. Correct.

Trial and Community Reaction

SPEAKER_01 30:51

And you d at the time you're like, you just figured that would change everything? I don't I don't even know. I just uh Do you think looking back on it that was a good decision or a bad decision? And I don't know the answer to that.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

I I don't either, but I think it was a bad decision because in, you know, then they turned full transparency is the um is the name of the, you know, as you go into a trial.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

And if you were fully transparent, then maybe they would have charged you with something less. But instead they went for the full Monty.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

I mean, yeah, at first they charge me with yeah, manslaughter in the second degree. Um and then they have the ability to change that. Yeah, the ability to go to a grand jury and present you whatever evidence they feel they want to do a grand jury, even if they don't have a full discovery, they can present key things to kind of persuade uh a charge maybe up from the charge that they um are really going for. Um and and that's my opinion of what happened here.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Yeah, and they take a swing for a home run and hope to get a ground rule double. The the reason for a plea bargain, right? Yeah, to get you to come come off of it. Now, when when you find out that they're gonna charge you with murder, that had to have been a devastating blow.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Oh man, I I wasn't ready for it. And and to just know the the falseness of that accusation and the the actual charge coming against you and and the the gravity of wow, not only is this not true, um, and a misrepresentation of um of what actually happened, um, but it's also the the rest of my life um uh on the line.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

And it also going back to this town that you're from, it becomes the headline. First murder trial in 30 years or whatever it was in Lake Oswego. I mean, it was like this long gap before that came up. And then, you know, it's in gossip circles. You know, I the you know, the guy who passed away who was a friend of mine, he was also really good friends with my friends, you know, and so this was like this was so divisive as in, you know, we've lost a loved one. And so when that happened, it also caused, caused all kinds of different rifts because it was kind of like who's taking whose side here? And what what you come to find out is that when bad things happen and when a stigma gets put on somebody, like what happened to you, people turn their heads and bury them in the sand.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Correct. Yeah, that uh you learn a lot about people when when something like this happens. Because most people don't want to tarnish or touch tarnished goods. Exactly. And I also learned a lot about um expectations in myself. Do I do I have an expectation for these people to try to preserve themselves, just doing what they have a natural instinct to do? So um I I could have like a stance of, you know, like, oh, I can't believe that they didn't uh step up to the plate uh the way that I expect them to, but but really they're just doing they're just doing the best they can. Yeah.

Friendship and Support

SPEAKER_01 34:08

And you know, and I I have known you for a long time, and you and I have talked at great length, and you'll you'll find out exactly how that comes about here. Um, but I've always I've always thought it was commendable that you've never blamed anybody else. You've never you've never thrown hate or venom towards those who turn their heads on you. You've it you've always you always took responsibility for the moment in the capacity that it should be, not in the capacity that they tried to paint you in. Correct. Um, but I always thought that that had grace in it amongst the situation that you were put in, because you're in your early 20s. Your entire life is in front of you. And the next time I see you, I come to visit you in county jail, I believe it was. Uh, do you remember that? The black and white stripes. Yeah. And it frightened me. I came in there and horrifying. My first of uh quite a few times through a metal detector or whatever to come. Actually, I didn't metal detect there because you were behind plexiglass. Correct. Yeah. But I was there with a bunch of other people who I just didn't expect, you know, you or me to be in there.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

No, it's it's a fish out of water. And um and when you tell people where you're from in there, it it's it's like a joke. And you have to be okay with the joke and not let them kind of walk on you, and you're you're in a completely different environment with people that you would never ever be around, you know, by choice.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Absolutely. Now, this is interesting to me, and I don't think I've ever talked to you about this, but you know, you're in there and you're trying to like reach out or or or whatever and get a hold of somebody, at least a comrade or a friend or a support group or something, right? Because you're all alone. Yeah. And at some point, you called me. Um, and I can remember, you know, this is many years ago, but I can remember the collect call thing that pops up on the phone and basically gives you the option to accept something from a call from a prisoner. Yeah. And I obviously I didn't have a long list of people who that might be. Yeah. Um, and so I accept the call. Um, do you remember that at all?

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Yeah. You know, I remember every every moment, you know, that it's an echo chamber fishbowl of a unit, and it's you all, you know, people that are being accused of extremely, you know, violent um crimes. So you only have a window of time to, you know, 15 minutes to talk on the phone or something like that. And and you're looking around, I remember when someone finally accepted. And I was like, are you serious? You know, the the surprise and the you know, the kind of uh the joy that uh there's a world bigger than this, you know, um fishbowl.

Reflecting on the Experience

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Yeah, and I I remember thinking to myself, if I was in your position and the phone's ringing and then it's like declined, like it just would speak volumes to who I am because I also I know you, you know, and I I've known you for so long that in in my mind the the narrative that was being written just did not fit. And I hadn't seen any video. I was taking you 100% at your word.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Yeah, and uh that that's a that's an amazing quality that um I think you have. You're you're a you know, you're a good friend, kind of like no matter what. I'm not trying to, you know, blow you up, but that that is like the um what those examples, those examples. Is is my friend a good friend or not? Uh having that moment where uh, you know, you can say you'd show up, but is there an example of it? And um and when when you picked up that phone uh call, it was uh wow, you know, there's you know, at least someone will will talk to me. You you you think that of all the people that um are just don't want to be touched by it.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

It's uh and I remember I so I drive up at the time, I don't live here. I live in Eugene, Oregon, and I drive up here to come see you, and so I got to go stay at my parents' house. And I told them straight away, because you got to think, even from their perspective, they're hearing these rumors all over town. Now I'm driving to town to go sit with the guy. And I just told him straight away, I was like, to me, this is what's right, and this is what I have to do, is I'm gonna go see him and I'll be able to look into his eyes and I'll know, I'll know if this is true or not, you know. And I knew the second I walked in there, I knew before I got there I probably wouldn't have driven all the way up. I knew that it was not what they were saying that it was. Um, and it was at a time, even in 2008, it wasn't like you could just like articles on articles and articles. It was like all very ambiguous stuff. Um, I hated seeing you behind the plexiglass. You were still, you know, you weren't um because I saw you later on because they what they do in these situations is they sit and they milk you out there for a while to try and get that plea or to try and get it. And I mean, and you're in that fishbowl. It's probably hard to stay steadfast.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

You have a new person generally, almost, you know, at least once a week in there with you, you know, a two-person thing, and they it's uh it's a waiting game. Yeah, they want to ride you out for a year or two years while you wait for trial and see if it kind of essentially breaks you until you get get to that. I don't think it takes that long to prepare for a trial. Maybe, maybe um Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

So from the day that you were arrested to the time that you actually got a chance to defend yourself in court, how much time had passed? Uh over a year.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Over a year. Over a year of sitting in uh there are pretty bad conditions in that in that county jail. Um, I mean, you have this like sh two-person shower area with a a tray slot, and that's where you get your food. So no one can be showering when you get your food. It's just um it's pretty bad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

And um you actually faced conditions in a couple of different facilities, but how would you rank that amongst different places as is that as bad as prison? Is it worse? Worse. It's worse.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Well, no, I mean it's it's probably safer than prison. Uh you you're not in like uh as much danger physically. I mean, you could be, but you're not people still have the opportunity to get out there. Yeah, less weapons, less, you know, time, you know, with you know, dangerous people. But yeah, um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

But still a very sketchy environment. And for a guy who's, you know, this is like snowboard skate, Mike, you know, like this is like this, your eyes at first must have just been like almost like silver dollars.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Oh, horrified. I mean, uh, and then to to know that, okay, like what are the statistics of someone like winning a trial, you know, like coming to terms with like, hey, I could do, you know, a long time in there, and then how am I gonna survive? You know, you're a guy and you're like, you know, all of us guys think of that scenario, are you gonna survive this situation or could you survive in this situation? And and I, you know, I was a you know, smaller, you know, average guy going, oh wow, and I'm in danger. I, you know, not am I in danger, but I I'm in danger. Like, am I gonna be able to protect myself and how am I gonna do that?

SPEAKER_01 41:24

And I remember in the lead up ahead of this, um, and I I've told you this before, but you might not remember, I actually got a a visit from a couple of detectives who came, drove all the way down to Eugene and met me at a Starbucks, and they wanted to get to the bottom of your story. And they really wanted me to just give up on my angle, which is Mike's a good person, that's not possible. X, Y, and Z. I'm just laying it out the way that it's supposed to be laid out. So much, in fact, that one of the detectives this is a tight-knit community. I sang in like an elite choir with in high school. And so he's he's not like truly involved because it's it's kind of a conflict. So I'm talking to the other guy, and and I just I did not give him what they wanted. I don't think I wasn't being I wasn't holding anything back, but I just was saying what it is that I feel about you. And and I think part of the reason they came to talk to me is because I my name appeared on a sheet that said that I was going to arrive at your trial.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Yeah, as a as a character witness, which is um, you know, they get that, you know, we get a list of the people that they're gonna um put on the stand and uh yeah, it's just goes both ways.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

So now, um, out of the for a character witness, you know, obviously I don't I don't testify on the facts of the trial. I I testify on your character. Did you ask anyone else to do this for you, or at this point had nobody answered the call, or what what was what was the deal?

SPEAKER_00 42:57

Yeah, so um it yeah, no one really would um in in that uh but I did have like a um uh childhood like youth group leader guy that uh I'd known when I lived in Lake Oswego. And then when my dad moved to Hawaii, you know, I spent some time with him over in Maui and um and he was willing to speak on my behalf and my character he's known me since I was a kid. Um you've known me since I was a kid, and um and really people aren't knocking your door down to to say anything nice about you, especially when there's allegations that oh yeah, they don't want to be associated. No, and and even if they don't believe it, I mean, and uh or whatever their stance is, it's just you would I don't want to be touched by this. I don't and and it it's I I think that I would, but it's hard to say until you're put in that situation.

Looking Back On The Trial

SPEAKER_01 43:45

And what people don't know also is when you walk into a trial, on it's almost like a wedding. You've got like the bride's side and the groom's side, you know, you've got the defendant and the victim. And then it was just so weird because I go in and I sit on your side, and then all these people who Where my friends are sitting either the ones who can't get their mind made up or sitting in the middle, the bench that goes across the middle, like dead in the center, because they don't know what to do, or they're sitting on the other side, which is I and I'm just like, I hate that it's divided, you know, and I'm like, I'm not here to say one over the other. I just want to let's just get bat down to brass tacks. That's true. Yeah, exactly. Let's just bring out the truth. You're listening to the Fit for Radio podcast. And of course, it's brought to you by the Stafford Hills Club, which is everything you need in a workout facility. It's also a place to make friends and build a family here as you are stronger, smarter, and just more mobile together at Stafford Hills, a beautiful kids' club that you can trust with your kids. I do it myself while I work out, and it's peace of mind the whole time. Also, get here and get that membership lined up before the summer months hit and you're out there tanning those buns by the pool, enjoying the grill and so much more. They've got you dialed in at Stafford Hills. Check out all of the amenities for you at Staffordhills.com. Now, when we're at the trial, you know, I got a chance to see you again. And now you've been hidden away from the sun for so long that I remember thinking, because you were always like tan. Like you always had like a at least like kind of an olive complexion. Yeah. But I remember thinking, God, not necessarily sick, but that sickly kind of look. Um, and then I'm trying to think that did I see you in the hallway ahead of time? Because I thought I saw you, because they let you put your nice clothes on, but I could have sworn I saw you in the prison outfit ahead of time, but it's been so long. I don't know if I dreamed that part.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

No, they get you uh into like a back room, right? Yeah. So they wake you up, you know, around four in the morning, and uh then they like bring you into this like cold tank, and you're wearing these like, you know, striped uh kind of canvas stuff, and they get you changed and um and then they bring you over uh in shackles, and then they let you get changed, and then you put your shackles back on, and then then go to the holding tank, and then you go to your trial, which they had uh like a taser on me. Oh, so it could zap you. Yeah, there's some officer my whole trial with uh like a thing on his you're wearing a taser the whole time. It was uh there's one that was around my waist, and then there was one on like my ankle. And wow, no running. I asked for the ankle one. Um and it was really odd the way the trial set up. You think that the uh, you know, we're talking about the families on opposite sides, but you have the district attorney and us sitting at the same table. So I'm like rubbing elbows with the guy that's trying to put me away forever. And uh, and then I have a taser on my foot and like an officer like, you know, like winking at me or, you know, kind of like making jokes about, you know, the thing goes off for eight seconds and he goes, you don't want to ride the bowl, you know. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

And you're like, How am I here? Yeah. You know, and and you never get used to it, I'm guessing. Like the shackles and all that. Did it ever get to where that wasn't a big deal? Because the first time they put those on you, you're probably like, oh my God.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Yeah. The shackles, I mean, uh the ankle ones are the ones that get to me. They do. And then when you actually get transported to prison, they put what's called the black box on you. So it's like a shackle on a shackle that like connects your like feet to your hands. So and then you ride for like three hours on a is that ceremonious?

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Like why why then is are you a more risk than any other time?

SPEAKER_00 47:33

It it's transporting any, you know, uh they just take it all the way. They take it serious, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Um, so during this trial, I'm only there for one day, you know. So like the day that I'm invited to testify is also a day, and I don't know how many times they showed it, but is the day they showed the hot tub camera. And so that was the first time that I had actually seen the footage. And it was interesting to me. It actually I was glad because I saw the footage and then it was my turn to go up so that I could at least be like, okay, well that that backs up what it he said to me, you know, and it it it matches that. And you never said that it that you never denied that you know you have a part in the situation.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Oh yeah, I knew it yeah, I was where I shouldn't be doing what I shouldn't be doing, you know, that the you know led to the death of a man. And yeah, my f my you know, my friend, if we weren't doing what we were doing, my friend would still yeah. He'd still be here.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

And you know, and that's and kind of the letter of the law at the lower crime kind of reads like that, you know, whereas in the murder thing, just I could not and would not say no to coming there to fight against that.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

Yeah, no intent, you know. I've never had intent to to hurt somebody. I mean, um, yeah. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

And so when I get there, um, I see your grandparents and you know, I see your family and stuff, and I'm I'm I'm motivated, I would say that. Um it was a very it was a it was a different situation for me because that's the first and only time that I've testified at something like that. Um, but I knew how important it was. And when I got my chance to go up there to defend you, I I guess I was under the impression that I would be able to speak. And uh the district attorney was not was trying desperately to not let me finish my sentences or get to as soon as it would turn positive about you, he would just like smack, like trying objection. Yeah. And so at a point during this, I just kind of I decided that if I come off of this thing and I don't get the words out, why why did I even come up here? And so I just kind of turned and kind of ignored a few of those objections and just kind of kept talking. And I remember him being agitated uh that I had spoken up for you out of turn. But it's one of those things where it's not gonna hold me in contempt for telling you that telling the jury that you're a good person and that you're a compassionate guy, you know, and I I'm at least I didn't think so.

SPEAKER_00 50:23

You probably could have. You know, it meant so much to me.

The Weight Of The Verdict

SPEAKER_01 50:27

And maybe my my ignorance uh helped you there because I was just was not, I mean, and if they were gonna, you know, if they were gonna charge me for saying that you're a good person, then light me up, dude. Yeah, go right ahead. And um, they did not. He was agitated, but I came off the stand. I had accomplished my goal, and that was just to reiterate. I was hoping that they would see a good person on the stand who is just telling you about another good person who had a bad thing happen to them and a bad thing that happened for the whole everyone involved. Nobody comes out clean in the scenario, and and it's that's not lost on me or you. Uh, afterwards, though, your your grandparents came up to me and uh I think it was your grandpa, he's like, you know, nobody has been able to get a word in with that guy in there until you did. And and he gave me a big old hug, and it just meant the world, you know, it was like I'll drive up here every day.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

You're probably the first man that's hugged that that guy's hugged in like 50 years. Um it was pretty nice.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

And, you know, those uh it's it's those types of things that, you know, I remember that more than I remember a lot of things because that day was was wild for me. And that's just one day in this, in this experience that you're going through.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Um I would say that's yeah, you know, maybe the the day that you took the stand was maybe the most important one of the most important days of like my the future of my life and where where I'm sitting right now, you know.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Um because if you get convicted of murder, you could spend the rest of your life there.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

Yeah. The the opinion of of three or uh, you know, um your jury of 12 people, um uh your whole my yeah, my whole life uh was sitting right there. And then um knowing this uh district attorney is just um so good. I mean, his job is to to crush to get uh conviction, um no matter what. Um and and so I I remember you asking yourself questions and answering them up there. I don't remember exactly what you said, but like I love the transcript. Uh yeah, I would love it. We I have it. It's yeah, it's huge, but uh that's amazing someday. But um yeah, I I think, you know, I I'm dressing my daughters uh this morning. I'm thinking, you know, about to come in here, I'm thinking about that moment. That moment doesn't happen. Maybe my daughters don't happen. And uh, you know, and that's and that's just the that's the world to me. Um, you know, I I think about that moment probably like once a week. Um, I've told people that story um a lot of times, but that was probably in my trial um when people were like, wow, maybe this guy didn't, you know, um brutally do something intentionally, but it was just, you know, reckless behavior that led up to a horrific accident. Um that's what I felt was like the kind of like a pivotal point. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

Well, I that means the world to me, and you know that. And we've talked about this at great length because right at this moment, there's a couple options on the table. They can convict you of murder, they can convict you of manslaughter, or they can send you home, right? Yeah. And what what if any hope did you have of going home?

SPEAKER_00 53:39

I really didn't. You know, I mean, maybe uh if it was what I, you know, probably uh I thought it was at best maybe gonna be criminally negligent homicide, is what the jury, you know, with the the evidence that was presented, maybe they could, you know. And that wouldn't be a mandatory minimum? No, not a mandatory minimum. And you know, I might have done some time and then, you know, kind of probation. And then I was like, yeah, if they get into the weeds a little bit, it could be manslaughter. And then I was like, there's no way it's gonna be um murder. I just didn't I didn't feel it. I I and then I was willing to stand up for that. That was uh I don't know if the the district attorney offered me plea deals and I just said I just said no because I I want to take it to them.

Adjusting To Prison Life

SPEAKER_01 54:19

I don't want to Yeah, you don't want to and then it's forever, well he did do it, but then he saved himself. Like, no, I I I want them to say it that I didn't that I did not do that intentionally and that it's just the course of actions. So when it comes down, is it just like the movies? They stand you up, you take a deep breath. How does how do they read this verdict?

SPEAKER_00 54:41

Yeah, so just like the movies. I mean, you I'm sitting there, uh, you know, you zoom out of your body kind of thing. Um, you the hot adrenaline washes over your body. It's all down to this moment. And it's all down to this very moment, you know. The jury finds the defendant, you know, not guilty. Bam, you know, and just like the relief of like a cold wash over that hot adrenaline. And then um then they said for you know the lesser included crime, which you know, the process of them determining what that is is you know uh debate in itself. But they said manslaughter in the first degree and hit that gavel. I knew exactly that that meant 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

And you'd already been locked up for n one, so that meant you had nine more to do. Nine more to do.

SPEAKER_00 55:27

And do they tell you straight away where you're going? No, no idea. They take you to a place to classify you by age, by uh to make you a warrant of the stare. Like you're basically they own you at that point. At that point, yeah, they're like, okay, can we get information from this person? Do we need to keep them separate from somebody? Um, is he a younger guy? Is he uh affiliated with gangs? Um checking you for tattoos and yeah, all that. Yeah, stripping naked.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

Um because it's all very brutal on you know, like the psyche too, with like the getting naked and cavity searches and all that stuff. And we are gonna have you on again to discuss some of the other aspects of a standard issue human going into a prison, because they there is so much. This podcast would be three and a half hours long if we got into all that. So we are going to do another episode, but and the reason why that's even possible is where they decide to send you. Now, how long do you lay in wait before you get told where? Because you know how long.

SPEAKER_00 56:31

Yeah. You just don't know where. Exactly. So you're there for like uh it's actually the women's facility. Um, and they also have like a section for intake where they, you know, classify each man and they send them from you know right up the road here uh to whatever facility in Oregon after they classify them. So all right. And then so once you were classified, you were sent where? Uh to uh Pendleton. Pendleton. Yeah, EOCI. Now that is a maximum security prison. Like medium max. It does have maximum aspects to it. But it's but the medium max. But it's like where, you know, square like in the movies is has the prison yard because like the max max max, you're like locked down in a box for 23 hours a day, let out into a you know, a case with no contact with anybody.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

Because you got a little bit more shaw shanky going on there, the where you can go out in the yard and do the do the whole thing. Now, when you get there, they transport you in the aggressive way and the whole deal. And is there is there a shock entry type thing where they bring you in and the warden comes and tells you to that life's over? Or how how does that intake roll?

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Yeah. So um you you get brought, it's like a three-hour drive or a four-hour drive or whatever it is, and you're into the middle of nowhere. In the middle of nowhere. It's freezing cold. Um, and you're wearing this uh aggressive shackle system, you know. So your hands hurt, you're cold, you gotta use the restroom, you know, all the things. You know, by the time you get there, you're just like trying to, you know, get to the, you know, unshackled to a toilet or something, you know, uh, gotta pee. And uh once you get there, I want to say that it wasn't, you know, this like, you know, the warden comes out with a shotgun, you know. Yeah, it wasn't like that. But You're in my house now. But there was a situation kind of kind of like that. You know, there had been a you know recent fight. So the uh um the guard uh had a guy in handcuffs with his hands like above his head and he was bleeding out of his face with a nurse trying to hold like gauze underneath him, like going to the infirmary as were being intaked with like my gosh, you're like, where am I? Oh yeah, I was like, okay, uh it is what you know, a little bit at least what they they say it might be.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

And you're still a pretty little guy here. You uh when you're in county, you're not do you have access to weights?

SPEAKER_00 58:51

No, but I mean, uh I got into you know a regiment because I'm like, man, I'm gonna have to be able to maybe defend myself. So you start doing push-ups and stuff in a cell, or what were you doing? Like Navy SEAL burpees and and push-ups and just anything that I it could keep me busy. You know, I was reading, I had, you know, um amazing support system of people sending me books, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:10

Um Yeah, I know for a fact just because I am that this type of a creature that I would be that would be I would live on the ground doing push-ups. I'd be like hanging from the bottom of my bunk trying to strengthen my arms, like anything to try and not be so little. Because at the same time, I haven't really started my fitness journey. You and I are both little guys. Yeah. I mean, I'm still a pretty little guy in general. We're not we didn't get any taller, but just didn't have the strength.

Maintaining Connections On The Outside

SPEAKER_00 59:36

Yeah, I did not have the strength and like knew that I I might need it. So I was like, okay, I am in self-preservation mode, you know. God give me the strength to just get, you know, buff enough to defend myself or whatever, whatever I might need to do. Um and you need that muscle yesterday because you're now here. Exactly. Here I am. And uh I know they have weights here and um and and all that, but I'm like, am I even allowed to use them?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:00

Uh yeah, what are the rules? I mean, you're just kind of a fish out of water at this point. Yeah. Um now early on in your stay there, eventually you start getting access to like being able to make calls and get, you know, time on your books and money on your books and and all that. So you and I actually we don't break communication. We continue to have a dialogue now that you're kind of settled in to a new spot. Yeah, yeah. We we talk pretty often. I mean, um a couple times a week for the for the length of however a long it was, it would let you talk, and then eventually it would say, like, all right, you two, shut up. And it that would be you're running out of time. You have one minute remote. Yeah, wrap it up. Yeah. Pretty much. So when you were on the phone, is it is that like the movies? Are you like out in a hallway on a phone or where people are like, get off the phone?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

Exactly. Exactly. You got some dude tapping his foot, looking at you all crazy, and you're like, dude, look at that guy. He's been on twice, you know.

unknown 1:01:02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

Um, and I remember those calls, and you know, it was a it was a strange time for everyone involved because I what I would do is you would call, and so I would take the call and I would go out on my back porch, and you know, Amy, my wife, would be there and and my roommate at the time, and they just knew I was just gonna go out and I was gonna talk to you until the lady on the phone told me one more minute, and that would be that. And that was just kind of part of life and part of a routine. And there were a few times where I couldn't answer, but most of the time I was able to we had to deal with if you call me at this time, then I can I can answer your calls. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

No, that was uh I think that was key to uh the the psychological survival.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:44

It keeps you grounded in your reality too, like that you and I can still you I could also update you on people and things, and you know, you'd be like, Well, what's so-and-so doing? And I'm like, oh blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And and so you're not disconnected. And part of that, why I think that helps is it kept one foot in reality that, you know, outside of these walls and outside of a bunch of tear gas and threats is a home and is like a, you know, there's an ecosystem for me out of here. I just have to get through this.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:17

Exactly. So it's a constant, you know, uh fight of I just gotta get through this. And um, and then an acceptance of I I can be worthy of, you know, uh a life better than what's being portrayed in here or what these dudes are glorifying.

Friendship Through Adversity

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

And you were there because you get this 10-year thing, like when I get the phone call about the incident, I still live in my apartment over by the karaoke bar where we all used to hang out. Like it's that long ago. I remember standing in the room taking the call, just dumbfounded, like staring at my broken AC unit in the wall, just like, uh. And then you fast forward my entire time I owned my house in Eugene, and then even like moving to Portland, like it's like a whole process right in that time. And it was so long. But I also want to say that it was mutually beneficial uh for me as well as for you, because I know I was a lifeline, but also during that time I've I've hinted at it and we'll do a show on it. But I was sick for three years. I I I call it I joke around and I call it the thousand days of sadness. It's just because I was so sick all the time. Mystery diagnosis, nobody knew what was wrong with me. And you would listen to me talk about what I'm going through, and and it was ambiguous because I didn't necessarily know, but you would hear me out and I would hear you out about what you were going through. And so like nobody else wanted to hear our whining or our issues, but we could kind of push that back and forth. And during that time, that allowed us to build our friendship to more than just bar buddies. And I always cared about you. I'd pick you up in the dead of night, but like most grown men do not talk on the phone for two hours every twice a week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:09

They just don't, they don't, or talking about, hey, I'm worried about this, or uh Yeah, real life stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:15

Yep, you know, and and I didn't know, you know, I didn't know what my future looked like, you know, because I I was dating Amy, but I was sick for three years. I was damaged goods. You didn't know what your future looked like. You're all alone in a cold bunk, you know, it's like we needed each other. Yeah. And so I don't want it to seem like I just helped you, you know, because you you helped me too.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:41

Yeah. Well, that that's great to hear. And, you know, the solidification of a friendship through like a, you know, uh a symbiotic uh, you know, thing is it's good to hear because I I feel a lot of times like, hey man, I was, you know, taking a lot, you know. I don't feel that you feel that I owe you anything, but I I know that um, you know, it's just good to hear that um, hey man, we're we're helping each other out, you know, sharpening each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

100%. And, you know, and honestly, your gripes held more water than mine because I, you know, my tummy hurts and I get sick and dizzy. And yours were uh, yeah, a guy beat the blood and crap out of somebody in the mess hall, and then they shot us with tear gas, and I'm kind of burning up in the eyes right now. That's a tougher day than what I'm going through. And so I think a lot of times you would put me into perspective to where, yeah, I am going through the toughest time of my life physically, but I'm also not going through what you're going through. Yeah. So it gave me some perspective. You spend a lot of time there in Pendleton. Did you ever make a blanket? Uh, never made a blanket.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:42

Are they making blankets there? No, but the uh the Nesperse, the uh the Native Americans, the tribe, yeah, the tribe, the bunch of dudes are in there that are like OG uh Nesperse and uh and their grandmas made some of the original designs. They have their own opinion about Pendle Pendleton uh blankets, but of course. But they uh um they're really cool uh to the native community out there. They have sweats and they have um they allow them a lot of um religious grace out there. Nice. Yeah.

Transitioning Through Prison

SPEAKER_01 1:06:11

Now um I want to get into because like it kind of transitions, and like I said, we will do a show all about stories of being in an intense prison and some of the things that you went through. Um, but what I do want to get into is the transition from there to the minimum security unit. It's the Fit for Radio podcast, and it's brought to you by the Stafford Hills Club. If you haven't been here, you gotta check it out. Staffordhills.com. They've got everything you need, whether you're lifting weights, you're into the cardio, or you'd like a guided class, they've got everything there. Also the salt water pool, people doing laps with the steam coming off it at dawn. It's so nice. Or if you just want to swim on your own time, they've got you covered and kick back and relax as we're about to see sunshine every day here soon. So Stafford Hills is your spot to get ready for that beach bod, staffordhills.com. Because a lot of people don't know that when you go from the semi-max to me in my mind, it's maximum security, but not like you know, a Russian prison, but a pretty intense prison to minimum security prison, which is almost like a giant farmhouse with a locked door that smells gross, and you know, I did visit there. But I always thought it was crazy when you discussed going from point A to point B. Like, so you take me from when you're in Pendleton and how they had you dressed to what happened when they pulled up at the do you remember this?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:48

Oh yeah, I remember the exact well, you you kind of wait your whole sentence for this moment, you know. But I've been just blown away that it's so Yeah. I made it to well, and and you feel that way when you get released too. Uh, there's there's two different feelings that are very similar where you just have this abundance of freedom that you weren't didn't have access to just seconds before. Okay. Um, so yeah, uh the I'll walk you through the the Pendleton to what was the name of that next facility?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:16

Uh Mill Creek. Mill Creek, which is now condemned. Now a condemned building, all kinds of lead paint and other, you know, which and shady behavior. But uh so we can talk openly about it. You're heading to the new facility, and and just tell me what what they do.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:29

Yeah, so uh they wake you up early and it's usually around breakfast time. So um I I'm being uh I get called to for transport. So I have all my stuff in this like plastic bag. And are you giddy? I'm I'm really happy, but I'm like, you know, you're always like worried that something's gonna go wrong or something like that. Like the last second. Oh no, a judge just ruled five more years on the colour. Five more, yeah. You know, that's that you're being blamed for the your other cellmate did, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:57

Yeah, because you never know when you're gonna catch a charge in there. You have to be careful so you can go home.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:02

Yeah. So it's uh just a timing game trying to stay away from certain scenarios, dodging trouble, dodging trouble, essentially. And and there's plenty of idiots to get into trouble. So it's yeah. So you're all you've got your gear. Got my gear. I'm walking uh across the yard. Then I see a bunch of officers running up to uh these like metal stairs to this unit, uh, guy getting beat up, and there's blood literally dripping down from the um from the grates on like three stories up onto the pavement that I have to walk over with my plastic bag with my stuff. Oh my god, and get me out of here. I'm trying to get past the cops, otherwise, I'm gonna have to, you know, it's gonna affect my ability to get through the check gate because they got to deal with cleaning up this guy and getting this other guy to the hole. So I was like, I can get past these guys. So I get to a minimum facility. So I finally get in, do the whole black box thing, right? They pack you up. You it's like your Hannibal Lecter. Yep, the whole deal. And uh I get transported, you know, three hours to to Salem. And then I know where I'm going. I know the the freedoms or their the rumors of the freedoms that are at this facility, um, because it's essentially just a work camp, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:04

Um and uh and if you're willing to work, you're gonna get so you're gonna breathe fresh air.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:09

Exactly. Cheap labor for the the city and state and all beyond cheap. We'll get into that another time. Yeah. So um, so but I'm excited. I'm like, wow, I I just walked across a pool of blood and I'm gonna go to a place where everyone's afraid to you know get in trouble and sent back here and all that. So um I get I finally get there and they take off my shackles, and I'm standing in like a parking lot and I realize there's no fences. And you have no shackles, and no shackles. And I'm I'm looking around going, wow, like I just had people like, you know, with loaded guns and guard towers and five seconds ago, really, in the grand scheme of life. Yeah, there was a guy in the shotgun in the van, you know, um, you know, that would have shot me all the way up to here, all the way up to the parking lot. Now it's fun. Yeah, now it's fine. We'll just send you back to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:54

So black and white, you know, it's like, oh boom, and now it's changed. And I remember when you because you called me when you were once you got to Mill Creek, and now um it's cool also because now you can hear my radio show there. If you're in a work truck or whatever, like all those things are possible. I can come visit you. Yep. Um, which I think having the ability, and I could have come up there too, and I do apologize that I never came up to Pendleton, but it's like risk your life across the the straits of eastern Oregon. Yeah, but you know, in a perfect world, I would have been there, but I I made it a point to make it up to you when you got there so that I could come visit and sit in the same room with you. And um it gets to the point where actually, and my oldest daughter, I I tell her this sometime. I'm like, you know, you've been to a prison, right? Oh yeah. Because remember, we brought her in, and you know, that's I I thought that was so funny.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:46

And the and the uh the the officers there all listen to your show. So like I got a little bit of leniency uh there helps you out a little bit. Yeah, a little bit of cred. And uh, but not with the other Emmys like that, you know, those guys like them, you know, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:00

But uh yeah, because when my baby came in there, they like, you know, I think they're making sure there's no like cocaine in her diaper and all this stuff. Yeah. Um my grandma, you know. I know, and I had to wear, I couldn't wear jeans in there, so I'd have to go like switch into slacks because you guys wore jeans and like there were these weird rules where I had to change my so I'd be out in the car putting on like an outfit that I hadn't worn in five years, and just look like a schlub when I walk in there and go back out and be such a diva that I'd change back and then drive away. Yeah. Um, but while you're there, you're you become you become like the head of their work crew. Like you become like Mr. Reliable.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:39

Yeah, well, I mean, I don't have tattoos on my face. I don't have any tattoos. Uh I don't have anything against them. I just don't have any and kind of made a point not to Yeah. Well, it's I don't have them either.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:49

It's kind of rare not to. So like where used to you have a tattoo makes you different. Now you're different because you don't have them.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:55

Yeah. So but to each their own, I think they look great on some people. Oh, my wife has yeah, tons of tattoos. Yeah, you know, I love tattoos, you know. Family members, I just I chose not to.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:04

I'm gonna get that giant hawk for you on your back. You just you let me know.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:08

Yeah, yeah. The lower back.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:10

Yeah. So you kind of gain cred by, I mean, you're well spoken, you're articulate, you know, you don't you don't talk like you're deep-rooted gangster or anything like that. So that probably helped. No meth background, that's you know, is a big thing. Your jaw still sits standard.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:25

Yeah, I hope so. Uh yeah. And uh yeah. So yeah, I ended up with this job where um a lot of furniture and things get made for uh colleges, um, the Capitol building, uh DHS, DMV. Uh inmates will make this furniture and uh and then inmates will end up delivering it across the the state guys with like four years or less that don't have any, you know, uh less risk of running. Exactly. Less risk of running, no, you know, uh sex crimes or anything. Yeah, you can't be out amongst the wolves. Exactly. Uh, because you're going into schools, you know, which is insane. That is nuts.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:02

And no, no offense to you. Oh that you're rest of your team. What are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:06

The whole time I'm like, looking at the officer, we shouldn't. Yeah, we shouldn't even like be here, especially with this guy, you know. And I built the desk outside and then they'll bring it in. Right, you know, and I'm just like, this is insane to me. But um, but I was very grateful because I got out. But um, as soon as I got back on this like box truck after, you know, installing cabinets or whatever it was, um, stripped naked and um and then sent to my bunk. They what have you go walk there naked? Uh well, no, they put you in this like cage and then in a room and they have you do the you know, kind of the loople deal. Spread and cough and um lift and separate and the the whole deal, and then you're then you're released back into this facility with no fences.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:45

Which is which is such a tough thing because even though now you're you're grateful that you're not in the heavy security and with like the real troubled people, it still is degrading to have to constantly open your cheeks for people and all that stuff. Like, did you get numb to that eventually where you're like, whatever, this is just life?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:06

Yeah, no, I think back in the other facility, you know, where they would, you know, take uh, you know, a couple hundred people into like a would look like an old school gymnasium with the wood bleachers and they're looking for a knife or they're looking for drugs, and uh, and they just had it with everybody. So they bring everybody down and they'll line up like 70 people or 77 people on that unit, you know, and uh strip everyone naked at the same time. And while everyone in the bleachers, you know, the other couple hundred people are watching. Sitting there. Just sitting there watching you do the, you know, and and I got to a moment where this guy uh kept on telling me to like spread and cough more than once. It happened like like three times in a row, like I wasn't doing it good enough or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:46

See, this would be tough for me. Like even at the club, if there's five naked dudes in there in the locker room at once, I get vertigo. Yeah, yeah. I don't need to necessarily be there for all that.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:57

Yeah, and he's expecting an enthusiastic cough so he can, you know, look at me in a very, you know, vulnerable position, and I start laughing. And he didn't like that I thought it was funny, you know, and I was just like, this is But it's awkward, and so I'm laughing. Yeah, exactly. Like it's nervous, like and then once I knew it like upset him, I start, you know, kind of laughing harder. Uh and uh and it just turned into this big thing where you know he's like, you know, put me in handcuffs and have me sit in the corner for a while. But uh until you know, I'm like, you have like a hundred people to strip search, you're gonna take five minutes on each person. Come on, man. Yeah, like let's move along already. You're killing me. But you have those moments where you're um you you feel like that um they're trying to get you in a psychological game, and you're like, you're not getting me anymore.

Finding Freedom and New Beginnings

SPEAKER_01 1:16:40

Yeah, you're trying to demoralize me, and I have decided I'm going home at some point. Yeah. And I think um, you know, I I also want to point out something, you know, while you're in these facilities, you make a concerted effort to work on nutrition, work on your body, you teach yourself how to play the guitar, you lean deeply into your faith, and you use these things as distractions. And I remember um I was like, oh, he's learning how to play the the guitar. I hope he can do that, and you did it. I think it was very impressive. The fact the fact that you you were proactive along the way, that you were kind of like educating re-educating yourself and what you needed to do and what you had access to. And I remember when I finally saw you when I actually came to the facility, I was like, oh my god, he's huge. Like he's a he's a monster. And I I've hadn't even started my like serious push-up regiment yet. So I was like, oh my God, I got some work to do over here because you were like my size were smaller when you went in there, and then you I see you and you're just like fully yoked.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:49

Yeah, it was uh it was a rededication of my life. Like I had this moment of like, what what are my priorities? I can't let this, you know, horrific accident um, you know, just uh go into this, you know, phase where I go backwards. Uh, I can't let all this, you know, be in vain, I guess, or whatever. And I had this thing where I was like, I want to, I want to be it, I want to be a husband, I want to be a dad, I want to, I want to work hard. And I start looking at these, you know, jobs and these people that I admire. And I'm like, what do I admire about them? And uh, and I had that lot of time to reflect on that. And how do I, you know, transition? Yeah, playing guitar and music, uh, everything. Uh just uh focusing the front of your mind on like a mundane task so the rest of your mind can just fade away. You know, you're not listening to the the shoe squeaking outside your cell with a fight when you have your headphones on and you're uh playing a guitar or doing something like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:46

So did you find a that you were happier when you got to Mill Creek because you were able to live your life a little bit more, or were you still kind of having to be on the defensive and kind of keep yourself in the tunnel?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:58

Uh both, actually. Uh yeah, there's some times where you're like, man, I'm on this crew and these guys are smuggling this stuff. I can't say nothing, and you know, they're gonna get me written up. Exactly. Or these officers have like a vendetta against, you know, these guys that that I know that I work with, and I'm gonna get caught up in this. So you have this anxiety that you're gonna get sent back to the place you were just at. They could take it all away. Take it all away, or give you more time for something you had nothing to do with, you know, like drop of some drugs, and you're just happening to be on the crew and you're like, whoa, that wasn't. Sorry, we charge everybody. That wasn't it wasn't in my body. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:34

Um, so during this time, you you um you're kind of coming to the end of it. You actually met your wife while you were still there, uh, which is kind of cool that that is able to the next phase of your life is kind of being integrated at that point. Can you tell me uh before uh what it was like when um you are going home, like the final day when it's time for you to to actually leave?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:04

Yeah, yeah. Let me just touch real quick on, you know, the the importance of uh of my wife and this whole situation. So we met uh in a crazy way. I'm playing guitar for a bunch of different church services, all kinds of denominations, religions, things like that. But uh this old this uh older gal had was a volunteer in there, and she's like, hey, uh one day after church was like, I want you to meet my granddaughter. And I said, you know, that's a horrible idea to talk to any man in here about that. Yeah. She's like, Will you write her a letter, the sweetest lady you ever met? And uh I was like, No, you know, there's absolutely no, and you should never ask anyone else in here to do that. And she's like, Yeah, I just I feel I have a feeling, you know, kind of thing, and um and went that direction. And we were very reluctant, you know, she was pestering us so much that we just essentially agreed to write each other. Um, she wasn't living in North Carolina, I'm living in um in Salem and uh in a facility. Yeah, and we or the the agreement was we'll write as friends. And I wrote her a letter, sat in her mailbox for two weeks, and she didn't care even when she got it, she's like, This is odd, you know. Um, but they have a uh look, we'll go into another episode about her background. Her dad was, you know, is incarcerated forever uh as a bank robber. Um, and so she it was familiar to see this this letter, you know. She has no ambition of ever writing an inmate, you know, probably the exact opposite, you know, she's a you know, a Navy military gal. And uh, and so she, you know, uh opened the letter and um took a long time to write me back. And eventually we just started this dialogue via pen and paper. Uh, which turned into yeah, love and all that, probably irresponsible, this and that. But uh we ended up getting married in there, you know, fast forwarding to that that moment of wow, this, you know, this gal's been coming to see me, you know, for for two years, you know, straight. You know, obviously the uh friends and family are, you know, uh, she didn't even tell her family about my situation in North Carolina until like two years after everything. So when you were out I had to tell myself for the first time. I had no idea. It was just, yeah, that was that's a lot. Yeah, it was a lot. Um buckle up, guys. Buckle up, guys. I got an interesting story for you. I'm not crazy, I promise. Um so uh, but yeah, that moment um upon release, yeah, of course it takes longer than expected. And um, and there's there's so much pressure. I have no idea what I'm gonna do. I'm I'm 33 years old. I have you're about to head out with no money, nothing. Nothing. Yeah, just nothing. And my and my wife, you know, she's um living paycheck to paycheck, um bartending and and my aunt and uncle were just the best um through this. Um, and they were like, hey, you can live in this cabin that we originally built for your grandpa for this amount of money you and your wife can while you're saving up for something else. So kind of had a little plan. This amazing uh guy kind of mentored me um throughout my sentence as well and uh hired me on his construction crew. But so I had a little bit of a support system and but no idea how it's gonna happen. You know, uh statistics are that um I think the the first one is uh after three years, um, like 68% of people after they get out, after three years will will go back in. Then it goes up to like 78 or something after six years, and then it's an 80 something percent after nine years. And they and they pound this in your head. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:23

But you going into this, and you don't need me to tell you this, but you weren't you weren't a criminal though. Yeah. You know, so like you weren't you weren't from this. This is an ins an isolated incident that you had, but I guess part of it is is you become a lot of people become a criminal in 10 years of marinating in criminal milk.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:43

Yeah, no, you're you're right. You know, like uh you're affected by it. I knew I wasn't living that life or whatever um at all. And but I knew the system was set up to, you know, uh as a resistance, uh, no matter what. So I was like, I'm going into a situation of disadvantage no matter what.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:00

Well, and the cool thing is you get out of there, and you know, do you remember, does somebody pick you up? They drop you off, or how does that go?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:08

Yeah, my wife picks me up, and it was just like that surreal moment, like, wow, we're really here. We're driving away. We're driving away. You feel like Bonnie and Clyde, you know, like, yeah, hurry up before they pull us over, you know. Yeah, and you keep looking over your shoulder over and over. Yeah. As you're walking out the door, you're like waiting for that moment. Uh oh, one more thing. Uh yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:28

Oh, I forgot. Oh, wait, here's a little bit of small print here. Come on back. Yeah. Um, now you the cool thing is you get going in construction. Um, you actually really I've been so proud of you. You have really done well with that, and you've built yourself up into uh bigger roles and not just like a grunt, and you know, after which I'm glad because you did a you made pennies for all of the work that you did while you were at Mill Creek. You know, they they're they're robbing you blind, but you're also doing hard labor, you're putting your body through it, and you're a strong guy, but labor's labor. Um, so I'm glad to see that you're not just dragging sandbags at this point, uh, because you know, we do need you standing upright. Yeah. At some point.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:17

I do have a work truck in the parking lot full of tools, but I'm using them uh less and more of my brain. And uh, and yeah, my my job now is uh uh a huge blessing. And yeah, it's hard work. I'm not, you know, living uh uh extravagant life, but I was just so grateful that I have one.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:34

You build uh airplane hangers.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:36

Yeah, yeah. The um the outfit that I work for um primarily builds um, yeah, like aviation, uh business aviation hangars.

Building a New Life

SPEAKER_01 1:25:45

Um that's so cool, man. And we talked for at such great length about what what you were gonna do when you got out of there and what the plan would look like, and and you've done such a good job of all of it, of you know, not just the skills that you gained and the muscle and finding, you know, your wife, and you know, you have two beautiful daughters, and it's just it's such a great thing. You know, I uh you sent me this message, and you know, just to circle back on our friendship a little bit, you know, like it's not lost on me how special it is, you know, because of the bond that we have, and and it took a a tragic event for it to go full circle, but you sent me a message uh on uh my birthday a couple of years ago, and it's actually I'd say it's probably top three most important messages I've ever gotten in my life, and I'm just gonna read it to you. Normally I have I get a little choked up in doing so, but uh I I think I can hold it together. It says, Happy birthday, brother. You're the only person I know that I can text this early, because it was five in the morning. Uh thank you for being born. You're a genuine friend that has never turned his back on a buddy. I often think of it if you didn't stand up for me in court, and how that could have left me in prison for the rest of my life. I look at Luella and know that she is here because one friend out of many decided to crawl into the trench and pull his brother out with zero profit for himself. It's the hero gene, and it's a gift that most don't have. Thank you. Have a great day knowing that you're an inspiration, not just in your healthy physical habits, but mainly for your youth loyalty and your friendship. I can't tell you, Mike, how much that means to me. Like you know. I'm a triple girl dad. I love my girls. I would go to war for them, and I know you would for yours as well. And I see your girls and and I I see how happy they make you, and you know, this is just a result. of you know refusing to give up and you know tragic things happened and and a lot of people were affected and and you know we would all take it all back if we could but I just I'm proud of you for not giving up I'm proud of you for building that family and now raising those girls in a loving situation I see how you deal with them and how it's always them first and you know I don't think that it's fair for one moment to define a person you know I think that it's you get dealt a hand and it's how you deal with it. And you my friend have have come out on the other side of it in an incredible way and you should be extremely proud of yourself for that. You know I wanted to give you um kind of give you the floor for a second as we kind of wrap this up you know because there's a lot of things to it and you know the podcast is only so long and I know that we could have spent an hour on each section of this today. You know after what you've been through first of all I would say what would you say to other young adults who are out living their life flying by the seat of their pants not a care in the world you can't touch me type of a mentality what would you say to them?

The Fragility of Life

Accountability and Awareness

SPEAKER_00 1:29:28

Yeah I think about you know both of my daughters well and Evelyn and the same advice I would give to any young person and I have you know spoke to uh numerous young people but yeah for me is the the frailty of life um when you're a young man or a young woman you you just think that there's this uh in you know invincibility um and that your actions may not have the consequences that they actually could and um and and just an awareness uh like a spatial awareness uh my my whole life is pretty much dedicated to accident prevention now uh within my industry and um your job is to keep people safe yeah yeah a safety manager so like I mean uh like right now there's you know a hundred people working on our sites um right around there and uh the document and create programs and habits within those people to to keep them safe um but yeah back to the young people or anybody that was you know young athletes young uh anyone in that young stage where they're transitioning you know or in high school out of out of college it's uh there's there's not very much profit in that you know staying out a little extra or um or you I mean kids can't even experiment with drugs anymore. Um they they couldn't before but especially now now it's troubling it it's it's troubling it's dangerous um and um and just keeping up with with friends you know that that moment where you're you're hanging out with friends and you're just trying to you know kind of outdo each other uh it's it's just uh it's a facade and just being being careful uh being mindful um thinking about how um you know just three seconds can change the whole trajectory of your life or just um you know putting yourself in a situation where you're not not aware of what's going on around you uh there can be just massive consequences to that so I would just yeah just continue to encourage young people to um to call each other out if you see something you know call a friend out and say hey don't don't get in the car and and drive right now or um hold each other accountable yeah and accountability and and just uh trust within friends to you know hold each other accountable not that somebody should have held me accountable but um you know and that this whole situation could look different because you can't play the the what ifs games but um but for young people to be mindful that things can't happen things will happen and um if you're not if you're not careful and uh don't look out for each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:11

Yeah and Warren Buffett once said nothing good ever happens after midnight and look back on your life like yeah there's some fun moments but really at midnight most people are done making memories it's just that's when the debauchery begins that's when people are like let's go here and let's go here and it just cascades because a lot of times you go to the bar, the late night bar, and you're like, okay, we'll only have a couple drinks here but you had a couple drinks at the last place and then you prefunced a couple drinks at that spot and it really starts to snowball effect and affect your thinking long term. You know like when this incident went down I think most of people in our friend group it was a shock to understand that you know we are not invincible and life is just the thinnest line that could be snapped at any point. And I just encourage people and younger people now, they're not partying as hard, but the drugs are more dangerous. The the decisions that we make can be long term and and you're a perfect example of that. Now I think you're an example of it on two fronts. I think you're an example of it as in anything can happen to anyone who gets themselves in a situation like you can't control everything that happens to you but you can control the environment that you put yourself in that raises or lowers the chance of those things happening to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:34

Yeah. Does that make sense? Absolutely you know you can put yourself in in scenarios.

Lessons Learned and Moving Forward

SPEAKER_01 1:33:38

I mean just having the the little sayings you know nothing good happens after midnight or early to sleep, early to rise will make you healthy, wealthy, wise and having these little sayings you know little mantras mantras that we hear from a parent or somebody they probably don't remember even telling us but it sticks with us and we you know hold on to it and yeah well there's also a lesson on the back end too because you know don't put yourself in situations that can get you into the muck but also if you find yourself in a situation and this is where you've inspired me is that you took the adversity and you you harnessed it and you came out on top. You know so many people it would have collapsed them they'd be they'd be weird now. Like it's it's interesting to me that you're still have your personality like you and I went to uh an Oregon duck game not too long ago which I appreciate you taking me to that.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:32

Oh that was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:34

Thank you Britney for yeah for your service thank you Britney um but but basically you know we had a conversation all the way down there like almost outside of talking about this stuff almost like it we were back in time you know you you still have a sense of humor you still have joy in your life and and you've done all those things without shucking responsibility for the scenario that happened because you know well out of respect we don't we're not talking about names and we're not talking about the families and all that but that's always been the forefront of what you have wanted to make clear that you wanted to respect the family on the other end of this you know respect the legacy of the man who was lost and at the same time not let it define your entire story.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:22

Exactly you know everybody has a story and um you always have a a choice of how you respond. It's not just about what happens to you it's how you respond to what happens to you. Exactly and it's not about what happens to you um and kind of looking outward to me me cannot be happening.

Resilience and Response

SPEAKER_01 1:35:42

And you never did that you know and and I I I think that's commendable. So obviously um you and I the last thing I wanted to say too is you and I always discussed like we didn't know this was going to be a capacity of something that we would be able to do because I hadn't launched this podcast. I was doing my radio show and we had talked about us speaking to youth groups and us speaking to high schools and all that and like building out a whole assembly kind of like a scared straight type of a thing like don't get yourself into the muck and this won't happen to you. And we we were really doing the legs of that while you were still in jail. So it's like you weren't you were never me and you were like how can I use this to keep them from getting in here and you know when you got out you obviously you realized I have to make money I have to work and you and I are having a bunch of kids and grinding to pay bills and haven't had that chance to go and tell that story because the idea originally was I would MC and you would tell your story be so that I could you know facilitate the crowd and then you could deliver the mail. And I don't think that that is uh that that dream is dead. We could still totally do that. But I hope that this serves as a vehicle for people as well to be warned about uh the fact that we're not invincible and that bad decisions lead to bad results and that also when something happens to you don't let that be the end of the story. Exactly staple pages on the back of the book baby we got more to write yeah absolutely no I couldn't agree with you more well I love you buddy and we will have you back on in a little lighter capacity even though the stories are intense but a lot of the stories from in prison will be about other inmates and also how that's associated to you and I can't wait to discuss all the stuff with the work crews and the nine pennies they paid you for it. Oh man yeah they they they were brutal and my my wife was just a a saint through that process I mean there's so many uh there's so many great stories we haven't got to uh that are you know I mean they're horrible stories but they're they're they're uh interesting to talk about yes exactly amazing and not in the necessarily the positive mode just amazing as in make your eyes pop out of your head so thank you so much for sitting down with me I know that wasn't easy and I just want to give love to everybody who was a part of that story for people who who mourned after that and really this is just meant to be uh it's a warning to anyone that nothing's guaranteed and to just do what you need to do to keep yourself and those around you safe. And uh much love. Mike Hessemer thank you for coming on the show today. Thank you, Drew. Cheers