Page Fright

What Happens AFTER You Get a Literary Agent?

• Sydney Kain and Liza Petrov • Season 1 • Episode 15

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Most authors believe the path to publishing success hinges solely on perfecting their manuscript — but what truly makes or breaks your writing career? In this episode, Sydney and Liza Petrov peel back the curtain on the hidden layers of the industry, revealing insider strategies on how to secure an agent, negotiate your book deals, and find the right editor to elevate your story.
You’ll discover the unexpected truth about what agents really look for during the manuscript pitch process, and how to leverage multiple offers to maximize YOUR leverage. They break down the crucial difference between jointly and separately accounted book deals and explain how this impacts your royalties — knowledge that can save your future earnings. Plus, learn the key traits to seek in an agent, including their passion, responsiveness, and commitment to championing your work — because who you work with can make all the difference.
Sydney shares her firsthand experience negotiating a two-book deal for her debut, revealing how to navigate contract specifics, genre changes, and the importance of a motivated agent who fights for you. Whether you're dreaming of a traditional publishing path or just starting to query, this episode offers practical advice for turning industry uncertainties into opportunities.
They also tackle the critical role of professional editors versus beta readers, explaining why investing in quality editing can dramatically improve your manuscript and your chances of sale. Find out where to look for trusted editing help and how to spot red flags that signal scams.
If you're an aspiring author eager to demystify the complex world of publishing, or someone on the brink of signing your first deal, this episode is your blueprint. Arm yourself with insider knowledge, avoid common pitfalls, and set your story up for success. Perfect for authors, writers, and creatives ready to take their craft and career to the next level — hit play now and get ahead of the game.

SPEAKER_01

I'm Sydney Kane. And I'm Lisa Petrov. And you're listening to Page Fright, where we talk about writing craft, the ins and out of the publishing industry, and our own personal journeys as authors. So let's dive in.

SPEAKER_00

Have you ever heard of the what is it, the millennial pause? No. Yeah, apparently, like there's a thing that we do that uh wait, are you millennial or are you like elder Gen Z? No, I'm millennial. You're a millennial? Okay, so I don't know the ages. Anyway, apparently, like Gen Zers cannot stand how we at the beginning of videos, apparently, I don't know, I never noticed it. Pause like at the start of a video. They call it the millennial pause. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01

So now I'm I'm gonna be so self-conscious about that now. I don't know. I think we should just like there is an edit button. We could just like edit pause. No, I mean like on all my other videos that I do, like on TikTok or Instagram. I definitely do a pause. Should you do a pause? I think so. Because like I think you should lean into the pause. Okay.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Just actually I'm gonna do a video now making fun of that. I'm gonna like pause for a too long of a time and then be like, okay, so I mean, that is like my personality to a T.

SPEAKER_00

You tell me that like you're annoyed about something I've done, and I'm just like, are you? Okay. Well, that gives me information for the future. Yes, yes. Anyway. So how were the hot springs that you went to? They were awesome. They're so cool. Uh, I love them. They're about like 40 minutes south, not not 40 minutes, uh an hour south of Austin. They're called Otine Springs. Autine. I don't know how to spell it. All right, I don't know how to say it. Um, O-T-T-I-N-E. And uh yeah, so it's basically just like a bunch of different pools of different temperatures. Um so like ranging from like 100 degrees to like it's basically a just a regular pool, like 80 degrees, and then they have a hot tub and they have a um cold plunge. And it's so funny. So like when you do the cold plunge, like there's a sauna, there's a hot tub, and then there's a cold plunge. Like the cold plunge is legit, unbelievably cold. Like, oh, you went in it? Oh yeah. But I'm you know, I'm a little weakling. So our group kind of divided into different levels of people. So me, it's the way that the the pool is, the cold plunge, is it's basically uh it's like steps on either side. There's a little bottom, you know, there's just a floor at the bottom that it's not that long. It's just very short. It's like, I don't know, just a little bit longer than my desk, you know. So you just walk down the stairs, you go across the bottom, and then you walk up. And the bottom, it just like goes like just to the top of your waist. And uh, that's all I can do. I could just walk through it the whole time. But there were other people in our group who like, you know, they go in and then they dunk themselves and then they leave. Uh, I was like, that's super impressive. And then there were people that were just hanging out in the I don't understand those people. Yeah, I was like, you freaks.

unknown

You brooks.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so anyway, I was really impressed with them. I'm I'm a person that's just like, I could stay in a hot tub forever. Um anyway, it was it's really beautiful. I recommend it to anybody if you ever go to Austin, plan a day trip. Um they you can you can get a like a day pass from like 8 a.m. to I don't know when they closed. It might be 6 p.m., 8 p.m. Uh, but we stayed there all day and then we came home sunburnt and happy. How do they keep it clean? I don't know. I never asked them about their filtration system, I just assumed it was clean. That is such a me question.

SPEAKER_01

I went to Barton Springs when I was little, and I'm a still am a scaredy cat, but I was even more of a scaredy cat when I was a kid. And I remember my aunt telling me, Oh, we're going to Barton Springs pool. And so I thought of a swimming pool. And I didn't even notice it when I took off my clothes and my bathing suit. And I remember my sister jumping in, so I jumped in after her. And then weeds or like seaweed and I was like, wow, this is such an interesting pool. And then I still didn't notice anything until I went over to the side and my legs brushed up against the mossy side. And I had a full freak out, just like started screaming. They had to get me out of the pool.

SPEAKER_00

It's adorable. Disgusted. You know, I'm a little bit like you. So these are like pools, basically. The history of the springs is that it used to be a natural spring recovery center for kids who suffered from polio. And then polio vaccine came out, nobody was getting polio anymore. So the spring shut down because it was just like a health spa. And uh then it got renovated a few years ago and it opened back up.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So like the pools are basically they are pools. It's just they're fed with like spring water, hot, hot spring water. So it's not like I don't know if they chlorinate the water. I don't think that they do. They um they request that you use only very specific types of sunscreen if you use any sunscreen at all. Some of the pools they kind of put them, they put rocks on the bottom, which is fun. But like that's just like that's cultivated. It's not like Barton Springs, which is like for listeners, it's a like full-on freshwater pool. There is it is dirt on the bottom. Like it's kind of like they just built it out with like there's cement, you know, walkways around it, rimming it. But everything else is basically like you're swimming in a pond, basically. You know? And uh there are like there are fish in there. Right.

SPEAKER_01

That's that's uh not my not my type of swimming. I get it. I don't go in the ocean, and so finding out being fooled into thinking I'm pretty sure they did this on purpose to get me into the water, but being fooled in this way, I I still haven't recovered, obviously. I'll tell you this, I don't swim in lakes.

SPEAKER_00

I don't like it. No, I get this. There could be anything in there. Yeah. Well, it's funny because lakes are less dangerous than the ocean. Like the ocean is just like, okay, there could be sharks. But a lake is like, what's there gonna be? A snapping turtle? Like alligator?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, they had some here in Dallas where people had a pet alligator or something, flushed it down the toilet, and then it got into the lake.

SPEAKER_00

That is that sounds like an urban legend, girl. That is an urban legend. Like that is how uh people started thinking there were alligators in the New York sewer system, too. Well, alligator flushed down the toilet. I do not believe that there are any alligators in the New York.

SPEAKER_01

The the these alligators are now going in through the sewers and they're talking up through the pipes to these kids and saying, come like swim with me.

SPEAKER_00

You're spreading misinformation.

SPEAKER_01

And then what are you doing?

SPEAKER_00

Then this clown comes up. He's like, come. What is this saying? Is it like fly away?

SPEAKER_01

You fly, you can float too. Oh, float too. That's right. Float to yeah. I still have to finish that series, the one that just came out on HBO.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um really good so far.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you warned you warned me about it. Um, I started watching it and I thought, I thought it was lame. I did not. Shut it. Well, no, okay.

SPEAKER_01

The baby is a little It's lame. Yeah. Once I saw it, I was like, oh boy. Yeah. But the baby doesn't last long. It's just in that first episode or two, and then it goes then it's grown up it. So you don't have to deal with the baby that long.

SPEAKER_00

Isn't that baby it? I'm assuming it is. Yes. Everything that's magical in that town is it. Yeah. I think it's him as a baby. Yeah. I like the original it, and that's kind of where I end that story. I don't, I don't really like tacked on, like imagined by other TV writer, writing crews, like continuations of stories. It's just too close to fanfiction. And I'm like, I don't care how professional a writer you are, there's something that like maybe I'll change my mind. Maybe I'll see something that like completely knocks my socks off. But in general, I just go, whatever. I don't know. It's not the real thing. I didn't sign up for this fanfiction, you know. Well, I think we killed it on the banter today. So let's let's move on to our next segment. We really killed it. Um yeah, uh well, I I do have a question for you. It's kind of been something I've been thinking about recently, so maybe this can be what we talk about with our wait, what? It's basically just can you walk me through what happens when you get an agent? Like what what hap- what's the whole process?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So once you sign with an agent, um you mean like what happens like to get you on submission? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So it's basically like you you write your query letter, and an agent's like, okay, let's let's chat. I like what you wrote. What happens with that process of getting the agent? And then what do they do after? How what happens to your manuscript after?

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so you get the the email, like, I I want to meet. I loved your work. Let's set up a call. Oh my god, is it everything that I hope it is? As magical as I think it's gonna be. It's so magical. It's jumping around, screaming, like rechecking the email a bunch of times, and then you set up a time to chat. And basically it's just to get to know you. They want to know what other projects you want to work on, do you want to stay in the genre and move on? Because they do want to keep you on for a career most of the time. And so they want to hear that you're doing other things. And they you talk about like editing styles, you kind of just see if you're a match with how your work process is and in general, just as personalities. And then if they like you, and usually if they're going into the meeting, they're planning on offering you to be a client, unless it just goes terribly and you guys are not a match at all, then and you know, they're telling you edits that they want to do, and you're just like really defensive, and no, I don't want to do that, then they're gonna be like, okay, maybe we're not a match. And so and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, definitely. Even though that initial email is super excited, exciting, and you want to be picked by this person, ultimately, if their edits are so drastically different from what you want to do, then maybe you aren't a good creative match and you have to make that decision as well.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yes, certainly.

SPEAKER_01

And so let's say they offer you to a representation, then they typically give you one to two weeks for you to reach out. And this is expected, so don't feel like you're being rude. You just say thank you so much for the offer, I'll get back to you soon. And then you message everyone you're still out with and tell them that you've been offered representation, and you you give them a deadline, and then hopefully within that deadline, they get back to you to set up a call if they're interested.

SPEAKER_00

Did so quick question Is this basically like would you tell writers when you send this out? This could actually just spark interest that wasn't there before, saying, Okay, there's competition now, someone wants me. Yes, and that extern that validation from someone else can lead to other people sending you offers. And you shouldn't take this two-week period for granted. You should jump on that and try to create this competition for yourself.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, definitely. Yeah, because we're all human and there's this sense of like, okay, this person's a hot commodity now. Like we, you know, they see something in them. Um maybe I've had, you know, sometimes if they're not sure if your manuscript will sell, and you see this in sub too, they're like, This is really cool, but I'm not sure if it's gonna be popular, they'll kind of wait to see if there's other interest. And then if there is, they'll hop on it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Or if they've just have it's like this external validation that's cool because they're they don't have a crystal ball. Like they're kind of they're they're playing the game like they do, but they they know like they're like a fake psychic. They're like, I know the future, but they know that they don't know the future. So they're just kind of looking for any hint to to tell them the actual truth. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Well, there's that side of it, and then also they're getting thousands of queries, and so you might be six months down on their list of getting to it, and then you bump up to the front. Yes. If you make that offer. So that's really nice too. And then usually the the um, you know, they'll say, Congratulations, and then take a step back, or they'll say, sure, yeah, let's set up a call. And that usually happens pretty quickly if they're interested, like within a couple days. So that's really exciting.

SPEAKER_00

And so then you pick your agent, you maybe you can talk to other authors that they represent and allow your so what is um, so let's say you're in that amazing situation where interest has been sparked, you get multiple offers after that initial offer. Uh what would be some advice that you would give to a writer who is picking amongst multiple agents? What should be some criteria for them when they're making that choice? What are they looking for in the agent?

SPEAKER_01

To me, the most important thing is are they excited about you? They're wanting to champion your project. It doesn't matter how successful they are or how well known they are, even if they're from like the top agency and they're the top agent. If they have a bunch of other clients that are their best sellers, you're probably going to be lower on the totem pole. So I would find someone that's very motivated, that gets your voice, and you feel like they're excited about you. Because I've I've had some friends who have gone on sub and they don't even go out to that many editors. And then after three months, five months, those editors decline. Then now your submission is dead, and the agents will pull it, and now you don't maybe don't know where you stand with that agent and you have to work on a different project. Whereas if you get an agent like mine who is so just supportive and believes in you more than you believe in yourself, then they will just keep finding more editors. They don't stop, they're going to lunches, they're going to events to make connections, they're constantly soft pitching your work. And even when you say to them, Maybe we should just call this, I think it's dead, they're like, No, it's not dead.

SPEAKER_00

We're still going. And and that happened to you. That's like this that's so interesting because like you're basically, I remember, you know, month after month we would meet in our writers' group and you'd be like, nothing's happening, nothing's happening. I got I told her, I'd like, is it time to pull it? Is it time to pull it? And she keeps on saying no. And now you're in a great position where you have the software on the book, it's finally happening, uh, you're coming out in 2027. And uh you have all these opportunities popping up because she stayed in the game long enough to find the right people.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And also she negotiated where uh I had not all of what I write is contracted to this publisher. So my horrors were able to go out on sub. And so yesterday we officially went back on on sub with my horror book. Ooh, big announcement. Okay We're giving my publisher exclusive look, of course, but we're I mean, we're moving forward with that. So that's my biggest advice. More than anything else, really all that matters is how passionate they are about you and that you really like them, and if they're responsive. Because I've just heard horror stories about agents who ghost my friends or um they just don't they don't seem that passionate. And and and I think that'll just keep you happier in the end is if you find someone like that, like like my agent.

SPEAKER_00

Do you have any recommendations for anybody that's like, okay, what if I do get ghosted? What should I do? Like, do you have any friends that just like got back on their feet and because the thing is it happens, you know? That's a part of life where someone doesn't come through for you. And you have to be resilient. You have to figure out what are you gonna do? Die? Like roll over and say, Well, my career's over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What is the next step after that? Because there is always a next step. That is tricky because when you sign the contract, you're signing that this project I'm working on with you, you sign that away to that agent for a couple of years because they're working on it. So let's say after the first six months, you get ghosted by them because it's not selling. Now you're in a tricky situation because you can't shop that book anymore for until that contract is up and you've signed a contract with this agent. So in your contract, it'll talk about how to terminate that relationship. And I would suggest reading fine print. Yes. And if you are getting ghosted legitimately, I would reach out to the agency first after you've tried for a couple months and say, is something going on? I haven't heard from my agent. Is everything okay? And then if they're just, you know, still not responding, then I would read in there how to formally terminate that relationship. And then unfortunately, you would have to work on a new project and move forward with a different agent.

SPEAKER_00

Could it be a just I wonder legally, this is my brain ticking away. I wonder legally if how much you have to change about the original project to be able to say that it's a different project. You know what I mean? You get ghosted and this agent is just not responding to you, you feel like the project is lost. What are what are the guidelines? And I'm not asking you to like answer this question, but it's just like food for thought. Like, how much does my original project have to change in order for me to say that it's mine? I'm certain that there's legal precedent. Something to this.

SPEAKER_01

I'm not sure at all. That's way out of my yeah, I know. We have to get like a lawyer on here to be like, well, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like what are the rules? Yeah. Look, every lawyer wears glasses, don't you know? Do they always push them up their nose? For those of you that can't see.

SPEAKER_01

Lisa was pushing imaginary glasses up her nose.

SPEAKER_00

They're they're the the nerd that all of us had in our 1980s uh high school experience. Mm-hmm. You know, they all have pocket protectors.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00

My stereotype. Anyway, we just lost all our lawyer followers out there. Yes, every lawyer, that's what I think of you. Anyway, I do it's an interesting conundrum, but it also kind of comes back to when you're picking your agent, thinking that this is something that's like in the character of the person that you're evaluating. Do they seem like someone that is going to fight for you? Does their agency seem like they are responsible and have a good track record, not just in getting authors sold, but in, you know, they're they're a valid agency that isn't just, you know, a random LLC that this person made in order to rip you off. You know, is this a real agent? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And you should not pay any money. So if you're also asked, if they're asked for any amount of money, then this is a scam and run. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So don't pay money. Right, right. Mantra, don't pay money for any of this. Yes, yes. Great. I just I want to make sure that everybody's clear on this. If you're paying money, you're being scammed.

SPEAKER_01

Your agent is paid by you after the book is sold. They get 15, usually around 15% of whatever it is that you sell. So that is how they make their money. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. Okay. Wow. Then what happens? So they go, so let's say they didn't ghost you.

SPEAKER_02

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00

You go on sub. Mm-hmm. What's gonna what happens there?

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so after you do a few more rounds of edits and on this manuscript you've already edited 50,000 times, then you have submission day. Yay! And what this looks like is to prep for this, you write a book proposal. And so your agent will write a pitch letter for you. And this is where they're selling you as an author. They're selling, they'll be like, I'm so excited to introduce Lisa Petrov's title. And then they'll say, It's about this, this, and this. Here's the comps, here's where I see it. And then they do a little bio about you, and then followed by the manuscript. And then alongside that, let's say you want to do a multiple book deal. So let's say yours is a series and it's gonna be a three-book series. So you would write a book proposal that you would write book one, and then you would write the detailed synopsis of book one with like pictures on it to kind of kind of like a Pinterest board to kind of show the vibe of it. Oh, that makes more fun. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. And then that's book one, and then you go down to book two, you do a full synopsis of that pictures, book three synopsis. And this whole package, the pitch letter, your manuscript, and your proposal of the three book deal goes to all these editors that your agent has decided to send to. Usually editors that they have a prior relationship to or the agency has a relationship with, or they just are in the know about what editors are looking for. Okay. And so that all gets sent out to them. And then you just wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait until one of them says, Wow, this is wonderful and I want to buy it.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so let's let's backtrack a second. Here's a key question. So you send out this package. Do you ever get requests to augment the package? Do you have to send out different packages to different editors? Like your agent comes back to you and says, Hey, I know this editor, let's not send them a, you know, I know you have an idea for a series. Can you come up with a synopsis that's basically like, hey, this is a one book deal with series potential? And you change, you know, things in the synopsis to make that book end right there and have possible future books, but they're just like, I know this editor is not going to go for a series. Have you ever like changed a package that you're going to send out on sub? Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, we changed genre mid submission. I think we're interesting. Yes. How did that happen? We were like, okay, we're not getting a bunch of bytes on the This thriller route because mine was really genre blending, which as we've talked about is very difficult to sell. So we were like, okay, we're not getting a ton of bites on this thriller route. We we then went out with dark romance and we submitted to a bunch of other editors under this dark romance genre. But we ended up selling it under the thriller genre, uh, but then they asked to change it to domestic suspense. So it's interesting how important the genre is. Yeah. Now in the case, where you are in the bookstore for them, right? Yes. Right. So that was agreed upon before they offered the deal. Was would I be okay with the genre?

SPEAKER_00

And I'm like, whatever genre you want, I'll however you want to sell this book, I don't really care.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So in terms of changing what I'm offering, this is just your proposal to them. So let's say they're reading it and they're like, I like this, but I don't want a book two or three. I only want to buy one of this book and I want to change the ending to where there's no series. Then they would come back to you with that. And then you have the option to say, okay, let's do that. Like for mine, I had submitted a a proposal for two books, my first book and then the sequel to that book. Yeah. And the publisher that I'm with now, Thomas Amers, came back and said, you know what? When we read this novel, we read it as a standalone. So if we were to sign you, what we would want to do is kind of close the ending a little bit, leave it a little bit still open just in case it does well, and you know, maybe in the future. But then what we still want to offer you a two-book deal. We just want a different story. A different standalone. And I came back to my agent and I was like, Well, I don't have another standalone idea right now. Are they okay with giving me a two book deal when I don't have any idea what I would write? Synopsis ready? No, nothing. She was like, Yeah, they're confident. So they were like, All you have to do is sub when you have an idea, submit a synopsis to them for approval prior to writing. And so that's what we did. I signed my two book deal with with my f full manuscript and then to be determined book two.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, that sounds reasonable to me. They are banking on you. Actually, I don't know how much skin off their back it is for them to sign a contract with you saying, like, hey, you have a book two book deal, and if you end up kind of fizzling out and being like, I actually really didn't have an idea for another book. This next book is not coming. I bet they have it in like the contract where it's just like they can be like, Well, we put one book out, and there's a time limit on how long you have to write the second book. And we didn't put any money into it because they didn't give you an advance on it, because you're a debut author, right?

SPEAKER_01

No, so you do, so that's another thing. We can get into contracts on another episode. So one of the things in there is are your books, like let's say you have a multiple book deal, one of the things are they jointly or separately accounted, which means, and I I hope I get this right. If they're separately accounted, that means each book is its own story. So let's say you get you get a three-book deal and they're gonna offer you uh $20,000 for each book, let's say. So that's $60,000 advance. Now let's say they want to do a Do they do that for a debut authors? Like they offered Yeah, it just depends. Like it's there, there's no range. Like usually the range is like $5,000 to unlimited. Uh but I would say the range for a debut is between five and thirty-five thousand dollars for a book.

SPEAKER_00

So And just to just to pause real quick, because I would love to talk about this after you finish your point or maybe in another episode, it's basically okay, let's strategize. What type of advance do you want as an author, especially a debut author? Oh yeah. Because you have to earn your way out of that in order to make royalties. Exactly. Right. So there's a whole bunch of other stuff that needs to be considered when you're talking about how big your advance is and how much you want that, like and how much say you have in the advance that they offer. So maybe we should do like a book deal contract episode where we break down things to look out for. Yeah, I think I think that that would be a good idea. We can also add on, not to reveal too much from your end, talking about movie agents as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

My lips are sealed, but right. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Not so sealed that I didn't just say that, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. We can talk about that as well because it's a it's a whole nother beast and it's really interesting. It really is, yeah. And and I'm still learning all the time. So it's and it's so many people out there are like, I want my book to be made into some sort of visual media, a television show, or a movie. I would love that. And uh I know that there are tons of authors out there who are just like, yeah, I'm reading my book in order for it to be adapted. Yeah. I mean, there's a whole bunch to know about that end of it. And it it might help you make the decision that actually I don't want this to happen, or something like that.

SPEAKER_01

Anyway. But I just want to finish the point about the jointly accounted and separately accounted, because that's very important. And a lot of people don't know about this. So let's say they get offer you a three-book deal, $20,000 a book, so $60,000, and they say it's jointly accounted. That means they're counting all three of those books as together, which means when you publish your first book, even though you technically only got paid $20,000 for that book, because it's jointly accounted, you would have to earn out $60,000 before you get royalties. So you do not want that. You want you want uh separately accounted, which means that each book is its own entity. And once you publish book one, you only have to earn out $20,000 to uh before you start making royalties.

SPEAKER_00

So that's really important for you to know. And this is interesting because knowing it now as an author who is pre-agented, this is something that you can think about like it's a topic of conversation to have with agents when you're considering whether you should become their client. Right? Like you should talk to the agent about what what are your practices when it comes to negotiating contracts with different publishers? Would you accept a deal like this or would you fight back on it? Because I heard that it could be bad for me. What are you gonna do when it comes to making a contract to protect me as an author? Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And I have learned so much from Christina. She was so good. When I got the book deal, I was so like, oh my God, what am I looking at? And she was like, Call me when you're ready and I will go through this with you line by line. Oh, fantastic. And she explained everything to me, has been teaching me. I'm like her apprentice. I'm like constantly, she's constantly, I'm like, what does this mean? And then she'll send me like a long email explanation.

SPEAKER_00

So we definitely need to do a whole episode on this because I feel like we could just break it down.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh and talk about, okay, this is how you strategize. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there's still there's so much to go into about it, you know, we in the beginning, when you're pre-agented, all you think about is the agent part because that's the next big hurdle. Yeah. But then once you get the agent, it's a whole new world opens up with so many things you have to learn and understand. And you can really feel like you're drowning because you're like, I don't, I didn't prepare for any of this. I have only Googled researched a million times about query letters and the the agent interview. I have not prepared for this whole aspect of it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I mean, the structure of the industry is really not conducive to writers being able to fight for themselves. Exactly. It's because you like an agent, you're part of a you are hired by a firm to do these things. And that firm has an interest in teaching you how to navigate contracts. And you have you you're mentored, you have other professionals that have been in the industry for a long time, and they're telling you, they're whispering in your ear, they're calling you into meetings all the time to pay attention to this, pay attention to that, don't fall into this like pithole, don't fall into this trap. And when you're a writer, so much of your time is spent along because all you're doing is the creative side of it. And yeah, you are a self-taught Googler. And that is no match for someone who's basically, I've been to law school, I've been to publishing law school, and I know all the stuff. So this kind of research is really important. Uh, and I think it's sad to think about how easy it is to be taken advantage of and how hard it is to become knowledgeable about this kind of stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And that's why, you know, a big reason why we wanted to even start this podcast was because there is no space where there's people like us in the beginning of our careers just trying to figure it out where we can ask these questions, understand the industry better. So that's why pretty much why we started this.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. I agree. I'm so happy we did it. Okay, so this was a wonderful little, I would call it a preview segment for a future episode, because I realized just how big this topic is in asking you these questions. So we'll move on to the main part of our episode now, but future topic for a future episode. Definitely, definitely. Okay. Excellent. What are we talking about today, though?

SPEAKER_01

So our main act, even though that was kind of like our main act, but we only have limited time now for our main act, we do, which is how do I find a good editor for my book? And can I just use a beta reader instead of hiring a professional? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

The answer is no, I don't think so. I'm coming hard down on you can't just use beta readers. I would honestly, seriously recommend investing money and time into finding someone that you trust that is professional, like a professional grade editor, to look over at least it might not even you might not be able to afford your manuscript, but you might be able to afford an editor that can look at a section of your manuscript and assess your prose. You might be able to afford an editor that can look at um synopsis of your manuscript or your series where you take them through beginning to end, but it's less words than uh uh a full manuscript, and they can give you developmental advice. And that to me is key and more beneficial than just beta readers. There's something personal about a beta reader. You guys know each other, you don't want to ruin friendships, relationships, like advice can get skewed from beta readers, but you can get real world advice from a professional who doesn't necessarily like they don't have to be the smartest person in the world, but they are in touch with an industry you're trying to enter, and they can say, hey, here are some different places you can take this, here are some pitfalls you're falling into for the industry as it is right now, you should make yourself more flexible in the end, like in the end of your manuscript, change it up this way. That's what I that's how I would strategize it. Because one more thing, I'm sorry, I'm monologuing, but the the the key that I found in finding an editor is that you pay by the word. Yes. So strategizing around how little can I give to which type of editor in order to get the most bang for my book is the way to go. That's what I would recommend.

SPEAKER_01

So for those of those listeners that are saying, listen, it is expensive to hire an editor. And I don't have a personal relationship with my beta readers. I've found them on social media or through some other website. I have a bunch of them. Why would it not be good for me to just take my beta readers' advice? Because they're readers, right? They can point out plot holes, they can point out different things. Why can't I use them?

SPEAKER_00

You're pointing out the plot holes in my very forcefully made statement from just two seconds ago. I love it. Um that that makes sense. Okay, what's your answer to those people? Well, what a great question, Sydney. Gosh, wow. Okay, I didn't, you know what? You blew my mind. I didn't think that those people existed until right now. You make complete sense. So there are people that are just like, okay, yeah, my online community is great. Do I need to branch outside of them? Okay. I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

I would say that editors have a different way of processing your manuscript. So whereas beta readers are gonna give you more of an emotional reaction, they're gonna give you more of like, I read this. I mean, and like think about when you're reading your own books. I read this and I didn't like this character, or I didn't like the ending, or I didn't like this subplot, or this didn't land with me, but then they're not gonna have solutions necessarily on how to fix that problem. They can maybe point it out to you, but they're not gonna be able to help you dig your claws in and figure out what's going on. Whereas editors are really trained in this, they're really trained and they have a very methodical approach on how they look at your manuscript, how they analyze it, the things they look for, and then they offer you solutions. They brainstorm with you, they help you come up with ways like why is this not working? Good editors do. Yes. Good editors do.

SPEAKER_00

Just putting that out there.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, that's my answer. I think beta readers are very valuable because they're gonna give you a reader reaction and they're gonna give you a good idea on how your manuscript will be received. So I think there's a lot of value in that.

SPEAKER_00

And you can give them the whole thing for free.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. It's a big value. And you get reviews that are ethical. But I think an editor is just invaluable. I mean, there's it's if you can afford it, that's the way to go. Now, where do we find such an editor?

SPEAKER_00

Um you sounded like my Poindexter lawyer. Now how do we find Yes? I can do your homework. I feel like I'm the professor today. Now, class. Okay, wait, wait, wait. So, how do you find this editor? I mean, there are actual marketplaces to find editors. You found your editor on something called Readsy. Yes. R-E-E-D-S-Y? Yes.

SPEAKER_01

That is a fabulous website. That tells you agents. Yes. It is editors. And they have uh big five editors on there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. No, they have they have big people, people who have won awards, and you can see the books that they have worked on. So when you go on ReadSeet, this is basic, this is basically a free advertisement for ReadSe. I know. Hey Readse, sponsoring. We would love it. We would love a sponsorship. But you found your editor on there. And when you were looking, like I'm certain that you saw what they have, which is basically like you scroll through, you look at the edit at the different editors' profiles, you see what they are willing to edit, because they might be like it could be a development, they might be only available for developmental edits of manuscripts. They might be there only to edit query letters. And you found a wonderful editor who helped you greatly, and she edited both, right? She looked at your manuscript and your query letter, correct?

SPEAKER_01

She offered a package. So we did and her package included one round of developmental edits and then another round of looking through what I did with her ch with her edits. And then she did my query letter for me. Well, I gave her what I had and she edited it, and then um yeah, and she did that. And that was my that was my package. And so that was, I mean, I got so many full requests after that help from her.

SPEAKER_00

This is like there's so many editors that are available, and this isn't it's basically just freelance for them. Um, and it's like I'm certain that like this is almost like doing like Uber in in addition to your regular day job. Like a lot of these editors are working for publishing houses. They already have books that they are manuscripts that they are assigned officially through their job. They they're working on those, but this is like a side hustle for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

You know, you have you have you have to shell out. Um, I would say that I'm I have more faith in this website and marketplaces like this than I do in necessarily like you can find an an editor to work with at, you know, conventions. You can go to different writing conventions. There are freelance editors who are promoting themselves at um uh at these conventions. You can I and I I I'm not sure if I recommend that personally. Like I because it's hard to assess whether they're a good fit for you. And it's kind of like I don't know, there's just not enough options out there. I do I I think it's really important to be able to compare different people, their different styles, how like how you feel they're gonna work with you, and the answers that they could potentially provide, and what they'll see in your work. Right. Because I think some editors just don't see what you're doing. And yeah, that's it's just a a creative difference. And creative difference is important. So many bands have disbanded because of creative differences. Hopefully that doesn't happen to us. Yeah, hopefully. I mean, we haven't done a creative project yet together, and it would be that would be fun.

SPEAKER_01

That would be fun. I've always Greer Hendricks and Sarah Pekinen co-write books together.

SPEAKER_00

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01

They have like five books out that they've co-written, and I love all of them. And so I've always thought, wouldn't that be fun to co-write a book with somebody?

SPEAKER_00

I don't even know how it would work, but I'm uh I'm down. I'm I'm up for the challenge. I I've read books before and I've I thought that they were very interesting. I mean, they read like a regular book, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

The writing, there's no difference. I really loved An Anonymous Girl by them. Oh, yeah. It was very interesting and totally recommended. Another free advertisement.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah, so when it comes to choosing an editor, uh I I really do like, I think that what I'm going to do is I'm gonna take my own advice. The advice that I gave, like, especially for like, say you have a lot of words in your manuscript. I think that the the best thing you can do is see if you can get developmental edits for the plot. You know, you have a lot of words in your manuscript, is that you as the writer feel like, where do I cut? This is a big Django tower, and I feel like if I remove any of the pieces, the whole thing's gonna fall. And you need someone else from the outside to help you go, actually, this is not that important of a Jenga piece. You know, these five chapters don't even need to exist. And you can reduce your word count for that debut that needs to be fewer words than maybe future books. If you if you have a hit on your hands, like you can get a longer book.

SPEAKER_01

I think that's hard for new writers to understand is like, why do I need a developmental edit? I've already written this book, I love it, it's perfect how it is. And I was like this with my first debut, and I first started learning about oh, you should get a copy editor or a developmental editor. And I was learning between the different types of edits. And I went on and I was looking at the services, and I saw one that was developmental edit, and then one was copy edit. And obviously, developmental edit is much more expensive, and I was like, No, I don't need a developmental edit. My book is amazing. I just need some copy edits and that's it. So but I obviously I was wrong.

SPEAKER_00

So let's let's Yeah, I I well I think that one of the one of the mistakes that people can make is thinking that developmental edits are for beginners. Like you you've been writing for a long time, you you've written multiple manuscripts, you feel like you've gotten more in your game, and it's just not true to think that a developmental is helping you develop as a writer like the fundamentals. It's more like just looking at your plot and uh understanding what needs to be removed, what needs to be added. And sometimes like you don't realize it, but like a core relationship in your plot, if you just twist it a little, you know, they they're enemies. They're just straight up enemies. And then you're like, but once they were friends, and you never you like you didn't think about that, and it suddenly like notches so many things down the line into place where you're like it made the entire thing so much more interesting. That developmental editor was the person that allowed you to get enough distance from the manuscripts that you had already written in order to see this small change in the backstory of your characters, and you see all the dominoes fall and you're like, oh, you fell perfectly into place. I just needed that kind of collaboration to get distance and then to apply. And and that's not a commentary on your skill as a writer. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Now I can't imagine. I mean, I'm like, give me all the edits. I'm like, here's my manuscript. I need developmental. I need developmental times 10.

SPEAKER_00

Help me to if you talk to the right people, they will see the shifts in the fundamentals of your plot that give it that juice, you know, that just you know, make the engine purr and just like, oh yeah, everything's going, everybody's gonna be excited, they want to turn the page, and everybody needs an outside person to help them see that. But it needs to be the right outside person.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you have just like anything, you have to find someone on your team that meshes well with you. Yeah, like you have you have to build a team that you feel like you can really work with and trust because it's a very vulnerable, intimate you know, feel is it?

SPEAKER_00

So boy is it. Yes. Um, yeah. Anyway, um well that's how I feel about editors. I do recommend Read Z. Uh I'm going to you utilize it once I get closer to the summer. And yeah, I think uh I think we covered it. Yeah. Nailed it. Yeah, nailed it in and out of the park. Boom. Nobody has any follow-up questions after that. God, we're good. Um well, okay. So we did get a really great reader question, actually. Yes. I'm very excited to talk about it. I have so many thoughts. Yeah. Are you gonna read it? Oh, or should I? You're leaving it up like I'm gonna read it. I introduced it. Now you read it.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so our question's from Margaret. How long should a chapter be? It's so simple. It's deceptively simple. Yes, but it is not simple at all.

SPEAKER_00

No, it's not simple. Um Well, so like I usually kind of go to, it's like it depends on your um the type of book you're writing. Yes. You know, it depends on the age group that you're writing for. It depends on um uh whether you're writing commercial, upmarket literature, like and then it depends on your story. Yes. Like even then it kind of matters and doesn't matter at the same time. That's my lead up to my answer. I'm not gonna go on forever. I want to hear more of your thoughts before I or say my own.

SPEAKER_01

I second your answer. And the same thing with how many chapters should be in your book. That's different for everyone. I will speak for thrillers and horrors. You typically, just to put the answer out there, is typically between 2,000 and 5,000 words, mostly between two and three thousand for thrillers, like really fast-paced. But some of mine have been below 2,000, like some of mine have been like 1,500 words. You know, so I've seen chapters with one word in it. Yes. And the word was fuck. I've seen I've seen books with a million words in it, and you think it's never gonna end, and you're like, my god, how many words is this chapter? So yeah, a standard is between two and five. If you're in that range, you're correct, you're in a good range, but again, you're the author, you're the creative. It just depends on what your story needs.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I think basically if you are not trying to make a point with the length of your chapters, stay between 2,000 and 5,000. That's that is a good just goal. That's a good par, you know? Just try to hit that and you're not going to be misled. If you are trying to be rhythmic with your chapters or make make a point, like that one word fuck chapter, like that you can absolutely do that. Don't be afraid. I would say if you want to make a point, then be strong, be straightforward, and it can it can show off some cleverness on your part. Yeah. But I I would just definitely uh what was your name? Margaret? Margaret, just play around with it. That's if if you if you want to, you know, get creative, then make a really short chapter. Or if if you feel like you have a lot to say and you can say it well, then make a longer chapter. I mean, I have a chapter that is like 9,000 words long. It's a long chapter, but I felt like it needed to be this kind of it was part of the the theme of the chapter of almost like a never-ending party night that like it needed to be a kind of cascade of events of and then and then and then and sh like the character, she's getting deeper and deeper into like a cocaine adult state where things get crazier and crazier. And like I didn't want to break it up into separate chapters. I needed it to be a descent into some like it was kind of like something irreparable happens at the end for this character, like she can't go back. And like making it one long cascade of events was important to me. So that's why I decided to make a longer chapter. I have other chapters that I'm like, yeah, it's like a paragraph long.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I think that's a really good point. Everything that you do in your book should have a purpose or you understand why you're doing it, and that'll really help it stay true to itself and for you to be able to champion it and understand. Um, I think if you have a reason for why you're doing something, then it should be there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And if you don't, then it should be out.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. If you look back on it and you're like, actually, I don't really have a reason for this, then maybe it shouldn't be in your book.

SPEAKER_01

I s I saw this video on YouTube of this girl talking about this whole layout on this application that can show you how your chapters compare to each other in length and is it flowing properly? And I'm like, no, this is too much energy spent where it doesn't need to be spent. Like chapters don't need to be matching each other or equal, or I don't know. I to me it's just the story is what flows, not the chapters.

SPEAKER_00

I completely agree. Like, I think that there are right bring reasons and wrong reasons for chapter length deciding that. And if it's just a kind of OCD fastidious, like all my chapters need to be 4,000 words and that's it, then I'm not sure if other people are gonna connect to that. Right. People connect to stories, people can connect to character-driven plots. And I mean, there are other people that connect to like, I don't know, reading a whole book on how machines work. So I I I don't I don't understand those people personally. So maybe, maybe there's no wrong reasons. Maybe I should just take that all back.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe your character has OCD and so it mirrors in your chapters, like your chapters have to be 4,023 words.

SPEAKER_00

That's a character-driven reason, girl. That's not like hard sci-fi, where it's like literally like these types of ships are like this, and these types of ships are like that. And like there are readers that are like, oh my god, I love this. I am drinking this up. You are rocking my world. I'm reading it falling asleep. I'm just like, oh god. I would never even be reading that. So no, but for anybody that writes that, there's an agent out there for you. Oh, yeah, and readers out there for you, and there are tons of readers or a niche amount of readers, you know. There's a good there's a good amount.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know how many, but there's an amount out there.

SPEAKER_00

Just write what you're gonna write, have fun, don't get too caught up in being perfect. That's the that's the basic rule. So we forgot to do our tomatoes. No, no, I know. I messed that up, guys. I'm sorry. That's all right.

SPEAKER_01

We're gonna be out of order today because we're not rigid. Yes. So I have a good one today.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I have a good one too. I can't believe I forgot it. It's so good.

SPEAKER_01

I thought we've been reading all these reviews for weeks now, and I'm like, surely there is a book that people cannot have bad things to say about. What about a children's book like Peter Rabbit? Ooh, okay. Turns out many people have things to say about this book. Children's books are a new territory for us. Okay. Yeah. So for The Tale of Peter Rabbit, one star review. This is gonna be great. Okay, but seriously, this is one of the worst children's books ever written. How is no one even going to mention that totally abrupt ending? Or the word choice implored him to exert himself is not ideal children's book language. And is McGregor supposed to be some evil figure because he seems like a hardworking guy who just doesn't want to be bothered by a pessy little rabbit while he's gardening? And is there supposed to be a lesson here at all? Is the lesson just listen to your mother, otherwise you'll get chamomile tea before bed with your siblings while your siblings get bread and milk? So stupid. I swear, this is just a classic because no one actually reads it, but great aunt whoever or some family friend always ends up gifting it.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so you know how um what's her face? The woman that made the video that we were talking about mostly. Hillary Lane. Yeah, you know how she triggered you? This reviewer triggered me. Really? As a as a former teacher who knows about how to do read-aloud books and what to pick for kids, that that one bit where it said, what was the language that's inappropriate for kids? What was the phrasing? Oh, I don't know, it was like while imploring something. Yeah. Okay. So just for our audience, if you're a parent out there and you're trying to pick a book for your kid to read, something to remember pick books with vocabulary that your kids don't know yet. It should be more advanced than your kids' reading skills. They soak up language like sponges. So as a rule, for any read-alowd book, it should be a higher reader reading level than your kid has. If you give a book to your kids for them to read independently, it can be as basic as they need it. But they will develop better emotionally, intellectually, reading-wise, even, if you read them books with tough language like that. So this person doesn't know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

You should also speak to them. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And you should also speak to your children with diverse vocabulary because then they will start speaking that way to you. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Speak to each other in their presence with diverse vocabulary, speak to them with diverse vocabulary, do not dumb down your language. That is that is something that I was taught as a teacher, and it helped kids. Kids need as much exposure to complex vocabulary as possible. It helps them express their emotions. It helps them be more emotionally regulated on the inside because they're able to talk about how they feel in ways that adults understand and then can help them. Yes. Like, yes, they should read this book because specifically because of that language.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you, Miss Petrov. So aggravating. Yeah. The second we start talking about children's literature, like I have so many thoughts.

SPEAKER_01

It's nice to see you being the triggered one this time and me being like the calm, like, yes, I understand. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

I'm so serene. I just I've seen kids be helped by intensifying the vocabulary and their exposure to it. Uh oh, just one side story before we go on to the next uh tomato, my tomato. When I was teaching, I was teaching fifth graders in my first year, and my I was still in grad school for teaching, and one of my grad school professors turned me on to this amazing practice. I love it. It's basically um you put together an emotional spectrum. It's just a display. You can put it up in your classroom, and the spectrum is just pictures of faces that you have where, like I just did cartoon faces. I did a circle, two dot eyes, and then they express different emotions. And they're basic emotions happiness, sadness, anger, neutrality. You know, sometimes you just don't really feel anything at all. Hopefulness, you know, just you spice it up a little bit. But basically you're going through the basic emotions. And as the year goes on, um, you start out at the beginning of the year with very basic vocabulary at the bottom. Like you do like a card, you write out like sad, just three letters. All like the kids know the word sad. They can read it, they can decode it. But as you go on, like angry, you know, but as you go on through the year, you attach different words beneath it, and they get more complex. Oh, I love it. Yeah. So beneath the word sad, like and you can just attach it with little clips. So they keep the word sad there, and then it just goes do, do, do, do. So like so for angry, you can go to irate, irritated, you know, and so perturbed. Yes. So it ends up with kind of funny results though, because if you have students that get angry in the year and they want to express this to you, there will be a point in the year when basically every student is gonna come to you and says, Miss Petrov or whatever, I'm vexed right now. And it's so funny to hear nine-year-olds tell you like that they're very vexed with this tool. A little Elizabet Elizabeth Bennett, I'm imagining. Yeah, it's it's really good. Anyway, so vocabulary is one of the most important tools in any parent or teachers in teaching kids how to regulate their emotions, and they're better off for it. Anyway, I'm done with my rant. I loved it. And you'll be creating little writers too. The more vocabulary. Yes, they're gonna feel more empowered when they do put pen to paper because that's one of the worst parts about writing essays when you're nine. You literally don't have the words to express yourself, and you're asked to write 500 of them, and it sucks. Yeah, it helped it will help them find their voice.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. The more words you have, the more your voice can come out.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. We have gone on too long. I have ranted too much. I have uh a review. I'm I'm taking us back into adult books. Uh classic. It's uh Agatha Christie's um murder on the Orient Express. Ooh, good one. Who could have anything bad to say in this book? I know, really. Who? Someone. This reviewer dead. Two stars, Dry and Disappointing is their title. Note, this is the first Agatha Christie book I've ever read, and I have not seen any of the film or TD TV adaptations. So they're just going in clean. This is what they write. This classic murder mystery takes place on a stranded train in the 1930s. Legendary detective Hercule Pro considers the clues, interviews the passengers, and cogitates ultimately solving the mystery by throwing some spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. The solution, while interesting, was almost absurdly implausible. That's a hilarious thing to say about the solution for this. Yes. And the book is written in such a way that the reader has no chance at all of deducing it on their own. Monsieur Poirot holds us at arm's length and will not let us in on much of what he's thinking. The writing style is dry and bland. I kept having to look up translations for all the French phrases bandied about. The plot, such as it is, offers virtually no dramatic tension. I would expect at least some sense of urgency in a murder mystery tale. The character development is shallow and leans on ethnic stereotypes to a disturbing degree, possibly a consequence of there being too many characters to begin with. Our hero is arrogant, pompous, and unlikable. At least the book is relatively short. This just goes to show that a famous title does not guarantee a good story, even if it's by a celebrated writer. I understand that other Christie books are better. I'm giving this two stars because I did really like a climactic reveal involving one of the characters. It's not worth reading the whole book for, though. I would not recommend this unless you feel you must read it in order to achieve complete genre literacy. Ten people found this helpful. Oh my god. Yeah. Woo! I found it dry. I mean, it's just the writing style of the time. It's one of those things where we've gotten closer and closer to characters and started to live in their heads in modern writing. And like in older writing, you're you're not necessarily experiencing that as much. Um where it's like, I I don't necessarily need to know all of Poro's inner thoughts. It's just a different type of story. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah. And I I just I I thought it was the my the funniest part was just when they said that the the result was implausible. And I'm just like, yeah, but it's it's a funny, it's a cool story. Yeah. It's kind of a comedy. Yeah. But also it's just like it's not it isn't character driven. It's a different type of story. Right. It's plot driven, it's mystery driven, it's a it's a puzzle to figure out. She's trying to give you a novel answer to a puzzle that has been done a million times before, and it was a novel answer. It was such a novel answer and such a fun one that you can't repeat it. Like she cornered the market on that one. That's true. You know, you it's yeah, that's one you can't repeat. Yeah. It's just basically just people are saying, like, are you doing a retelling of the murder on the Orient Express? Right. Like, are you are you doing a retelling of a Shakespeare play? Like so true. Yeah. This plot is so that it's just Agatha Christie's. And it's like, well, that's a feat on its own as a writer. Genius. Yeah. Absolute genius.

unknown

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00

Well, in another week of reviews that are terrible. Yes. So Syphini, I have a question for you. Um do you ever get jealous of other writers?

SPEAKER_01

What a personal and intrusive question.

SPEAKER_00

I guess that's just my personality. Constantly asking those kinds of questions.

SPEAKER_01

You know what? I will answer it, but I'm gonna wait till next week to answer that.

SPEAKER_00

Are you gonna name names? Maybe. Maybe I will. Oh, people should definitely listen for that. Okay, tune in next week. Don't forget to like and subscribe. I will see you soon on PageFright. All right. Bye. Bye.

SPEAKER_01

You just listened to Page Fright. Don't forget to like and subscribe and write to us at pagefrightcontact at gmail.com.

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Sydney Kain

Host