Professional Jealousy...What Do You Do About It?

Navigate the complex emotion of jealousy in your writing career with insights from seasoned authors. This episode explores how jealousy can impact your creative journey and professional relationships, offering strategies to transform it into a source of motivation and self-improvement.

Join Sydney and Liza as they discuss real-life experiences and practical advice on managing jealousy, turning it into a positive force that will drive your success as a writer. Whether you're crafting your first novel or refining your voice, learn how to harness jealousy to fuel your ambition and enhance your literary journey.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I'm Sydney Kane. And I'm Lisa Petrov. And you're listening to Page Fright, where we talk about writing craft, the ins and out of the publishing industry, and our own personal journeys as authors. So let's dive in. Hey!

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Hey girl. Hello. Long time we'll see. Yes. Yeah. Well, I am excited because before we got on, you were talking about uh a retreat that you're about to take part in.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Oh, yeah. It's this um it's called Shadows and Secrets. It's this virtual. Well, they have two. They have one in Salem at this haunted hotel that's in person, and then they have this virtual one. And so I've started that and they're helping me workshop uh a horror novel that I had a loose outline on, but it just felt like it was really missing something. So we're doing a deep dive on that and really diving into character arcs, plot, uh motivations. Um that's really exciting. Really, so I know everything about this world. And then talking about like midpoints and twists and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Um I love that I love that time in creating a story when you're, you know, you're developing all of the basics. There's something really exciting about it. Also something really frustrating because you feel like you could go in so many directions. Oh yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Yeah. But it's nice. I used to be when I before when I was just a straight up pantser, I would just start writing right away. And I wouldn't know anything about it. But I have found the more work I do before writing, the easier it is to write and the faster I write because I'm so grounded in it. I I feel like I know the people in it. I know how they would react, I know why they're acting the way they are. Whereas before when I would be writing, I'd be like, why is she acting so suspicious? Or like, why is she something weird about her? So then now I'm like, I know why you're being weird. Like you're the bad guy, you know? So you're getting so disciplined, Sydney. I know. I know. It's like I'm really turning into type A. No, no, no, not type A.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

A professional. Let's let's not use any derogatory terms like type A.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Right. Okay, you're so right. But I have to get it together because I have my manuscript due in December. I have this, I'm getting edits on, I've just heard from my assigned editor for the one that's getting published in February. Those edits are getting in on the 20th. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

I have four weeks. Wait, wait, just a clarification for me. So when you say those edits are getting in, you are turning in edits in response to the edit letter that you already got, or you're getting an edit letter?

SPEAKER_02 2:36

I'm getting the edit letter and inline edits for the first round. So exciting. I got my actual schedule, so it's four weeks I have with the edits, then I give it back to her, and she has two weeks, then I have two weeks, and then it's due for copy edits.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

All right.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

So it's gonna be just crunch time, gotta go. Well, you look like you're excited. I am excited. It's weird. It's like a nervous, excited, it hurts so good kind of situation.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

I bet I bet I think that that's been like what it's been for you since the beginning, since you got your agent, since everything. You've you've had this like, it's so good, it hurts, yes, kind of feeling.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Uh yeah, that's how it is. But even writing in general, I feel like is a hurt so good situation.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Well, one day I will get to your position. Uh well, should we dive into our stagecraft?

SPEAKER_02 3:34

This week we're doing a stagecraft, not a way what. Exciting. Yes. Yes, this was a brilliant idea on your part. Oh, no, you came up with stagecraft. What are you talking about? Oh, no, not the name. The Oh, oh, oh, what we're doing today. Yes, yes, yes. No, stagecraft was my idea, and it is quite brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Yeah, it is quite brilliant. Um, okay, so I'm I'm looking at my notes. Our stagecraft for today is addressing this specific question, which we kind of touched on already in our opener. How do you decide whether a scene is working for your story? So, you know, talking about building that story up from scratch, that beautiful zone when you're plotting everything out. Well, you are also writing a lot of trial scenes. Uh, you are keeping some, throwing out others, but how do you make the decision? At what point in that process do you decide, hey, this is a keeper, or it's just not working.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

That one is hard for me to pinpoint how something works. It's kind of the same thing for me about uh like save the cat. I think it's a beautiful model, but I can't follow it. And it's the same thing with scenes where I can't I just have I just get this feeling, which is the same thing with story structure. I get a feeling about how the story should go, and then it becomes a natural midpoint climax end. Um and I feel the same way with scenes, it's just this feeling. And so I did some research on like how do other people determine if a scene is working. Okay. And just to kind of give me ideas and like see if any of it resonated with me. And I think it always comes down to the purpose of it, uh, whether there it's building tension, moving plot forward, telling us something about the characters, like why did I write this scene? Yes. And how did it feel when I read it to myself? Like, does it feel good? Like I would want to read it as a reader, or did it feel like stilted or slow or whatever? And that's kind of how I that's where I start. And then I probably get more technical as we go, but I think that's a big a starting place for me.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

What about you? Oh, absolutely. What the what purpose a scene serves is the foundation for what tells me whether it's working or not. If if I just wanted to write it and I wanted to just see what happened, then I know that it's not necessarily tethered to the rest of the story in any functional fashion. What I always wanted to address is basically what you've said. Is it moving the platforward? Is it telling me something about the characters? Is it related to the central themes of my book? So and I and I always go back to kind of what what type of book are you writing? You know, if you're writing something that's a little plottier, then you may not want to spend time on theme-based scenes that don't necessarily move things forward, don't necessarily tell you deep dark secrets about ki the character or illustrate their kind of the way they tick and just kind of dwell on philosophical questions. Like if if you're not writing something that's closer to literature, then you probably don't want to have those kinds of scenes.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

This is a really cool stagecraft too, because the advice we would give about if a scene is working would be so different because mine is very much in your face. You're not trying to understand the meaning behind my words, you're just kind of along for the ride. Whereas you people would have to kind of put more work in. It's less of a roller coaster ride and more of a yeah, what's a what's a ride that's equivalent to that type of riding you do? I don't know. You're you're like the one where they have to spin it.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

I was gonna say quicksand. You're just like slowly being consumed. Yeah, you die at the end of my book. Just so you know it's a verse.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah, when she writes You die. When I write, the character dies.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

So exactly. Um but uh yeah, it it is also interesting. It's just like, let's uh we we can we can zero in on specific parts of a scene too, where you're like, okay, is this conversation working? Because I don't know, little tidbit about me as a writer, like I am constantly having like conversations running in my head between characters. I'm like, oh, she could say this, and then he says that. And like when I when I was younger, like instead of singing in the shower, I would just have like dialogue conversations between made-up characters in my head in the shower. Oh, that's what I would do. I wish I could have heard those. Oh, they're deeply embarrassing. So I'm so happy you didn't.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Yeah. I also think about in turn also with dialogue, dialogue needs to be witty and saying a lot. Um, people think that dialogue needs to be like, How are you doing? How's the weather? Like small talk, but really it's not. It's it it you don't talk the same way in books that you do in person. Um you're more of like for a purpose. Yes. But in terms of scene, there needs to be a goal for the scene. Um, there is like a beginning, middle, end, so it's like a mini midpoint and climax, in my opinion. Yeah. Maybe this is just for my style. And then something has to change after the scene, like maybe escalating tension, maybe more conflict, maybe confusion, maybe the characters changed for the better or worse. Um it has to do something, it can't just be m stagnant.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

I completely agree. It it there has to be a goal to your scene, and the character must in some way transform or go to a new stage in their story. Uh it can be plot related or like as in they find out new information and the plot moves forward. But it could also be, you know, they find out a problem and they experience a setback. And now they have to deal with the setback. So it's like if you think about your plot like a straight line, you you could have a scene where your character goes from point A to point B. Or you could have a scene where your character goes from point A to like, oh, they had to loop back on some sort of weird side adventure where everything gets fucked up and little, and then eventually they'll get to point B. But this conversation that you had, the joy of it was that it jettisoned them into this awful little side loop where your reader will go, oh no, oh no, or oh my God, I can't believe this is happening. Uh, how are they gonna get to point B? Yeah. You know, that's that's kind of the drama that you want to occur after or because of a C.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Mm-hmm. So Yeah, speaking of that like putting tension in the story and in your reader, I also like to see what emotional reaction I have as a reader after I write it. Because I kind of the way I write books is kind of weird. I imagine it is like a symphony in my head. And there's like the crescendo, and then it comes down, and I see it too with emotions. Like how what is my emotion from the beginning, and then how do my emotions like what is that transformation over it? Um, like maybe starting off scared to rage to fear to whatever the ending emotion is. And so I kind of track how I'm feeling as I'm reading. I I agree. If there's a scene that doesn't match up with the emotion I'm supposed to be feeling, then I'm like, well, first of all, maybe that's creative and maybe I should leave it, or maybe it's just not lining up and I need to take it out.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah, I I have that same experience, and this is kind of like one of the big reasons why everyone says, like, if you want to be a good writer, then read a lot. Yeah. You know, it soak up as much media as you can because you're going to start experiencing media media in the same way that you just described, where instead of just being along for the ride and just being this wide-eyed audience member going, wow, wow, wow, this happened and then this happened. And I'm not actually thinking about why it happened when it did. You start to transform yourself through this kind of exposure to going, oh, yes, this would be the point in the story when I need to find out this piece of information. And finding out this piece of information at this point felt really good because I've been waiting this long for it. And you could start applying those realizations to your own work, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Uh that just made me think of. So I finally watched Weathering Heights, like you've been telling me to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Oh we got okay. We need to, we need this is our own from point A to point B. We're just gonna go on the side thing. Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

When you're talking about things that we should have known earlier on, or when do we find things out? So uh my husband was a new time watcher of the show, and he did not understand Kathy and uh You mean the I mean I mean the movie, he never read the book. I meant he never read the book. I was like, there's a show? No, okay. Okay, the movie, the movie. Just to the whole Wuthering Heights world. Like he had no idea what to expect. And then you know the scene where after Heathcliff steps in for Kathy and when he's little, and then he uh gets beaten by the drunken dad, and he's in his bed crying and he's bleeding on his back, and Kathy comes into his room and it kind of just ends with them falling asleep.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

And then at the end of the movie, um, bug your ears if you don't want to know. At the end of the movie, it goes back to that scene and shows him saying, Kathy, Kathy, are you awake? and then says something along the lines of like I'll love you forever, whatever. Uh Sho said, I had such a hard time understanding their relationship, and like they it seemed to me they just went from kids to this crazy love for each other. I feel like that scene should have been at the beginning when they were laying there, because then you would have understood this, like, first of all, why he did that for her. And second of all, it would have built their relationship, which I thought was interesting because for creatives, you're really reading between the lines and understanding themes. But for people that don't necessarily analyze things as deeply as we do, maybe they need that to be said out loud.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

I don't know. Well, then that's a whole different philosophical question because I am repulsed by the idea of having to, you know, spell out certain things. Cause I'm just like, if you don't get it, then you just missed out. That's my that's my hardline, like gut, like be better at reading then.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Yeah. I'm terrible. I feel that too, like when I went and saw The Shape of Water and I walked out my boy, I remember that movie. I was like, that was I walked out and I was like, that was the most beautiful, amazing thing. I was just so blown away. And my husband was like, that was the biggest waste of my time. What was that even about? And then like I I explained it the whole way home, like all the themes and the deeper meanings, and and then he's all, wow, I think I just saw a masterpiece. I think I just saw the most beautiful movie. And I don't know, it's just so interesting how different people take in media and stories.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Yeah, yeah. It I mean, everybody takes it in differently. Everybody gets something out, something out of it that's different from the person that they went with. Um, and that's the beauty of being a creative. You I feel like you see, you can see movies, you can read books and kind of understand it almost on an inside out level. Yeah. You you almost have to turn off your uh the the way that you see into it. Whereas like for for me, like I I I try to force myself sometimes to just be the wide-eyed audience member that's just like, wow, and then this happened for no reason, you know? Like that's it's kind of I have to make myself do that now in order to enjoy something sometimes. It's so hard. Yeah. Uh but can I say my little thing on I've been waiting to say my little uh wearing hypes speech. I'm ready for it. Well, it got a lot of hate online, and I feel like it was fundamentally misunderstood. I I I thought that this I I saw Saltburn, Emerald Finel's, I don't know if it's her first movie or what, but it was I the first one that I remember seeing of hers, and everybody was talking about it. Uh, and I didn't particularly like it. So I and I'm also anybody that has watched past episodes of this podcast know that when they first started talking about Withering Heights, I had very low expectations because I like period costuming, I like historical fiction and all that kind of stuff. Um and it just the historical costuming community was up in arms. They were not interested in the screenshots of the dresses and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Oh my god, I was in love with the dresses.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yeah. Um so I had very low expectations going in. I cried. Oh, me too. I cried. I cried a lot. I cried a lot. I was I was very into it. Uh and when we left, I was just I was on cloud nine. And this is why the biggest criticism of her was that she was not true to the book.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

And I loved that she was not true to the book, and I usually don't like that, but she did it in a way that I thought was almost Shakespearean. Whereas basically she treated the book almost like it was a Shakespeare play, where you could, you know, where you've seen those like Shakespeare in the park, where there's just like, okay, yeah, it's um Othello, but it's done like in a high school setting with like and it's all rap or something like that, you know? Where it's just like it's such a staple story. Like Wuthering Heights is a staple gothic novel from like a hundred and something, two hundred years ago. Like it's it's from like 18, I don't know, 15, like it's from a long ass time ago. And it is such like just staple literature that I feel like it I I actually don't really have a problem with it being reimagined quotation marks around the title. Yeah, and saying, I'm going to tell part of it and I'm going to like and I'm gonna cut out huge chunks of the book. I'm essentially making something new where I am zeroing in on one aspect of the story, which is talking about the dangers of obsession, how obsession, how love can become a sin, basically, um, and its connection to addiction and rotting, you know, rotting good things from the inside. Uh, like that, I think she was extremely successful. She she set out with a very narrow vision from uh a piece of literature that is pretty sprawling. Yeah, yeah. It has a lot of themes in it, it's addressing a lot of stuff. And she she decided to focus on one part of it, and essentially she made a an almost like 80s style fantasy version of Wuthering Heights, a la legend. Uh, have you ever seen Legend? Do you know what legend is? No. Well, so when I when I was watching Wuthering Heights and I was looking at all of the amazing scenery, she there was a lot of movie craft in it that I thought was fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

The lighting, the camera angles. Oh my gosh. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Her specific choice to not have everything be in natural places. Uh, like she had bluffs and stuff like that, but she also just had this absolutely out of this world stit fake stage house and garden. Anyway, so you see the lighting with that, you see the flowers, you see the way that the air is full of little speckled daffodil seeds floating around constantly. And I felt like I was being transported back to this movie from the 80s called Legend. Tom Cruise was in it, and so was Tim Curry. Tim Curry. Um, and he plays this like basically it's a story about a girl who gets whisked into hell and she's at the mercy of a giant, like horrifying devil demon, this underworld lord. And uh you should look up pictures of Tim Curry and the horns he had to wear for this role. I was it was out of this world, over the top, fantasy uh filmmaking, and the sets that they had to make, it was just absolutely incredible. Anyway, I felt like I was watching legend. I f and like and I under and the reason I bring this up is because it felt like she was she understood that she was creating a fantasy that in essence romance is a fantasy, and she's making a commentary on going into fantasy and how bad that can be for you. And like there are overt connections to the dad who is an alcoholic. Like, what is alcoholism but living in a fantasy to the detriment of the rest of your life?

SPEAKER_02 21:57

An addiction and they were addicted to each other and like What happens when you have withdrawals and it was like a whole situation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

And they ruined what was good, like about their lives. They they they ruined relationships. And I thought that that was great. And yet, and yet the love was very real. You know, the love, the love was there.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

And so Well, and I love the way it impacts the audience, where even though we see how bad it is, you still want them to be together. They kind of bring the audience into the addiction. Mm-hmm. Or we feel it too.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Yeah, exactly. So anyway, I thought it was great. I had a great time. And it was kind of the uh it was it was a kind of romance that I can really get into, even though it essentially was not Wuthering Heights. I would not recommend to watch this movie if you really want to fake having read Wuthering Heights. Yeah. If you want to tell people at a party that you read Wuthering Heights and then you're going off the plot of this movie, don't do it.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

That did throw me though, because I would be like, wait a second, this this is not right. This is this is wrong. I I had to finally, after a little bit, I was like, okay, just dump the book out of your head and just take this in for what it is because you're gonna miss out on something really spectacular if you keep trying to guess what's happening next. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

I mean, she cuts out like all of the shit where like Kathy is dead and she comes back and haunts him as a ghost. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Like the movie ends when she dies. Or like when the baby, the baby, when they're like, she's like, the baby's dead. I'm like, what? No, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Yeah, no, she like like those quotation marks were a huge part of the title. They should have put those in bold and like extra giant. Uh yeah. So anyway, it's kind of fun to watch everybody get angry. Yeah. Um and that's how I felt about that movie. And I know that we're 30 minutes in and I've kind of digressed, but I I needed to get that off my chest.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Well, thank you for your very thorough uh evaluation and assessment of that. I really had I had a lot of thoughts. So well, should we move on to our main act?

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Yeah, let's move on to our main act. Uh, because I can I can openly say uh uh, you know, Emerald Fennel, I'm I'm a little jealous of her. Well, it also is a jealousy and obsession.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

I mean, yeah, our main talk is how hard it is to be a creative, because you know, you gotta deal with things like jealousy, professional jealousy. So um, yeah, girl with an agent, how do you deal with jealousy?

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Um, you know, I I've been thinking about this all day because I started thinking, do I would if you had asked me a couple weeks ago, do I experience jealousy? I would have said, no, I'm not jealous. But then I started thinking, like, what is jealous, like what counts as jealousy? Because is wanting something that someone else has for yourself, is that inherently jealous?

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Oh, yeah. I mean, I I think I think envy, jealousy, all of that is wanting something that someone else has tied to the feeling that you uh somehow lack the power to get it right now, you know? Because I think that there is there's there's the feeling of, oh, I see that you have that and I know that I can get it, and I'm I'm on my way to getting it. Like that's that's a different feeling. Envy and jealousy, I think, are linked to a feeling of powerlessness. Um, where you on some level believe that either something external or something internal is stopping you and making you unable to do the thing that you see other people doing.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

And it probably gives you a bad feeling. Like there has to be a tie of a bad feeling of powerlessness is a bad feeling, you know? Yeah. Or like towards the other person. Because I've always thought of jealousy as something that you would want to do to take away from the other person so that they don't have it and you have it. I've always thought of jealousy like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

I mean sure. I I I don't think that it's essential to want to do something bad to the other person, um, to feel jealous of them. I think that that's kind of that's an endpoint of the feeling. But uh yeah, so how do you have so have you felt this? Because I've certainly felt this in my career.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

I think I was getting caught up in the semantics of like what it means to be jealous because I don't want to see myself as a jealous person. Because I want other people to be successful and like like you, I want you to get an agent and sell your book and be a bestseller. But then I think about okay, if you were to become a bestseller, would I want that for myself? Yes. But I wouldn't want to take that from you. So I don't know, it doesn't feel like a dirt I see jealousy as like a dirty feeling.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Uh yeah. I I I see it, I see it as a kind of a low feeling. Yeah, I agree. It's but you can't stop your feelings. You know, you feel what you feel. And I I I think that the worst thing that you can do if you're experiencing jealousy is to shame yourself. You know, feelings are like nature, they're like floods, they come upon you. You know? It's what do you do in that flood? Do you ground yourself and go, I'm going to figure out how to be a good person despite the feeling that I'm experiencing? Or do you just go wild with it and let it consume you?

SPEAKER_02 27:40

That's actually a um like a high level of coping in psychology, is like if you have a bad feeling and then you do something positive to make up for that bad feeling you're having, it's seen as like a mature coping mechanism. Um, which I think is good. Like if you feel, you know, like really angry and pissed off at your dog for I don't know, whatever reason, and you like have bad thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Jealous of your dog or like have bad thoughts about it.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

You know, maybe he destroys your house and you're like, I want to like kill my dog. I hate him. But instead of doing that, I'm gonna give him like uh treats or something, like you know, I don't know. That I don't know how I got on the topic of that thinking about jealousy, but yeah, I guess, okay, yeah, I feel it. I gotta admit it. I feel that feeling.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

I mean, I've definitely felt it. I think that for me, my jealousy is more around being able to get shit done, like meeting, meeting people or seeing people who have been celebratized. Like, okay, I hear about a writer online or in a magazine or whatever. I do have kind of that kind of reaction where I'm like, they they did it and I'm still where I'm at, you know?

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

And I think that that is natural. Anybody out there that is experiencing that, I understand, but what are you gonna do about it? That's the that's the real question. Like, is that is that feeling worth indulging in for a long time? I don't think so. You know? I think it fuels me to do more.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

I think I'm inherently very competitive and hard on myself. So where I see something, I'm like, well, if they have it, then why can't I have it? And then start working really, really hard to do that too.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yours is like a fire, like it's it's it ignites something in you.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Mine's not that way. Mine's more of a bog. Like it really, it just it just depresses me and makes me not do anything. So that's why I I see it as kind of useless. Cause I I'll just be like, well, why don't I just do nothing all day?

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Well, I think maybe that's why I surround myself with people that I think are better than me in different ways. Because I see it as lifting me up. So um, like you, for example, I think you're extremely talented and insightful. And I think you're an amazing, amaz I think you're a better writer than me. Uh like you're the way No, this is this is not me being humble or like self-deprecating. I think when it comes down to it, like you're a literary writer and the way you craft sentences in like the lyrical, poetic, like beautiful way is like objectively better writing. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 30:32

I don't even know what to say to that. Okay, well, you don't have to respond.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Okay. But and so I think if jealousy, to me, a jealousy negative feeling, like jealous, the way I think of it, a jealous person wouldn't want to be friends with you, would want to like make you feel insecure about your writing and like put you down so that way you're not a good writer. That's how I would see jealousy. But interesting. But for me, I would see it as obviously we're friends. I wanted to be friends with you, learn from you. Um I feel the exact same way. Join a writer. I wanted to be friends with you for the same reason. Be on a podcast with you. And so I guess I don't see that as jealousy. Like I love your writing and I want to be like your writing, but I don't, I don't, I don't know. Like that's why I'm having a hard time with this word because I feel like it doesn't mean the same thing to me as it does to other people.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

I can see that. I mean, I feel like jealousy, I through the course of this conversation, I think both of us are elucidating a point, which is jealousy manifests differently in different people. For you, it's something that can inspire you. Whereas for other people, like for our listeners, does jealousy stop you from being productive or does it help you? And is there a way for you to use it well? Or if it manifests in you, is it always just something that is a bad way to be? Like you were describing, like a jealous person would uh sabotage their friends or something like that, which is I I will say this I think a jealous person, like a jealous person would sabotage their friends. A person experiencing jealousy doesn't have to sabotage their friends, if that makes sense. So it's kind of like, are you a petty small person? Then go and sabotage your friends. Are you a bigger person who understands that you know people's life comes on different schedules and there's actually an opportunity to making different friends at different stages in their careers? That's called networking, by the way. And you're a bigger person and you're gonna do fine, you're gonna be great. That's that's what I think.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Okay, so I think we're what we're kind of coming to is that you are who you are as a person, and then if when you experience jealousy, that manifests in you differently based on the type of person you are. So it can either come out as a really ugly thing or it can come out as something that helps you grow or like doesn't hurt others.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

And helps you. Because if it comes out ugly, then it's only hurting you. Oh yeah. Yeah. But like because then you're burning bridges. And when you burn bridges, you are cutting your career opportunities down. That's what I think.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

I yeah. I I see it as like we're all standing around with balloons, and maybe my balloon isn't inflated enough, and you start taking off, and I'm like, hey, I don't want you to go up, so I snip your string and make you stay on the ground with me. Instead of being like grabbing your hand and being like, take me with you, you know, which is kind of how I feel about you too. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

That's how I feel about every creative writer, friend, that actually almost every person that I meet, I'm like, you have such potential to go places. I I want to be your friend. Like, I want to know interesting people. I want to know people who are better than me at things. I want to know people that have more than me in this world. Because what does that get me if I just go, oh, you have more? I can't be friends with you.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Yeah. And that just leaves me alone with less. Yes, that's exactly how I feel. Like, yeah, you know, I want friends with, you know, that are smarter than me, funnier than me, have more things in me. Like that's how I see it too. And even though I want that for myself, I guess I've just never thought of that as jealousy. I've always thought of that as being goal-driven.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Well, I think that there's another part of jealousy, which is um, you know, being egotistical. Like when you know you're talented, when you know you're good at something, and then you you might see other people's work and you're like, oh, I could have written that and I could have gotten the glory for that, and I didn't, and they did. I think that that is that is a bad thought cycle, and you need to kick yourself out of that. Okay. That that is you internally in your head cutting off potential avenues for yourself creatively and career-wise. Because, in effect, if someone else had an idea before you, you can still do a version of that idea. You can still put yourself out there in that same space. Because one one thing newbie writers should know is that there are no new ideas under the sun. A lot of big pieces of fiction were inspired for the writers by reading another book. Example, Margaret Atwood was inspired to write Handmaid's Tale by reading 1984. Well, and by the real world around us. Yes. But she read 1984 and she was like, oh, there's there's a conspicuous lack of the female perspective in this book. I I'm intrigued and I want to write a similar dystopian world, but strictly from this female perspective, going into what it might be like for the women in 1984. So just just saying, even if someone has come in before you and written the world's best dystopian novel, you can follow up with an absolute classic in the same area.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

Oh, yeah. I mean, think about Divergent. That was also like I mean, there's so many dystopian world stories. Yeah. Okay, I can admit that made me think about um an ugly thought I have had that I'll make my boutique. Bef I have read books before, like before I had an agent and I was on that in the query trenches, and I was getting discouraged daily and I was feeling really bad. I was reading books and thinking to myself, I was having thoughts in my head, and this is jealousy, where I would be like, How is this book popular? Like, this is not even as good as my writing. I've had how is it that like this could be published with an agent and I don't have one? I would have that thought occasionally.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Uh yeah, I mean, I've I it's it's funny. I have a different reaction to this. I've definitely read those books where I was just like, this is this is worse than my writing, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, and everybody who writes has this thought. This is not a special thing. So that's why I'm willing to admit it. Uh and um, but like when I have that thought, I go, sweet. You know, I no matter how low I think I am in my writing, like no matter how much I hate the chapter that I just read of my own stuff, it can still be published. It can still be popular and popular and everyone's gonna love it. The bar is so low.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

That is brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

You know what? That has completely changed. I will never have that thought as a negative ever again.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

I mean, it is interesting though, because I'm certain that there are so many writers out there who have written just chef's kiss, amazing books that are not getting traction. And that's a real that's a that's a hard pill to swallow. I'd like I can see that where you're like, my blood, sweat, and tears are in this. My talent is definitely on display, my voice matters, and this person that put out, like, okay, let's say it's some AI slop. You know, like, okay, an AI book is beating me. Oh, yeah. How would you feel about that? Not good, I tell you. Yeah, I'm certain that in the next decade there's going to be a lot of jealousy of people that utilized AI to write a novel and were completely shameless and unrepentant about it. Um, and are gonna be making arguments for it and saying, hey, you can't keep up. That is going to be a thing, I think.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Yeah, Hushet just uh uh dropped a book that was about to be uh published um because they found that it was a lot of AI use, although uh the author is saying that that they did not and they're seeking legal action, but it was a horror book. Interesting. Um interesting. So wait, what what was the name? What's the let me look it up? Yeah, look it up. I'm so curious. So yeah, it was a horror book called Shy Girl, and it was a horror novel.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Is that the one with um I think it has a kind of an interesting cover? Yeah, it's like a dog with like a little bumbo. I have been seeing so much kerfuffle online about this. There are a lot of people talking about whether she did, whether she didn't. I I like I have no idea whether it's AI or not. Like, cause because there's a whole another side of it where if someone accuses you of having used AI to write your book, what do you did? Well, this is what's crazy too.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Yeah, I don't know. Well, so AI has stolen all of this author's work, and then people were reading this very popular author's newest book, and was like, this sounds like AI. And it was like, no, what you're detecting is source material. The AI was using her original work, and now she's writing something new, and of course it sounds like AI. It's such a tricky territory.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

That's really upsetting. Um, yeah, I don't I I really don't know what the future is gonna bring when it comes to AI for for authors, uh, and how they're gonna be judged. Uh-huh. It is a question of what publishing houses are gonna do when it comes to like how much did you use AI in creating your work and do we care about that if AI starts to sell really well, which I'm actually not sure it will. Like I I don't I don't think people necessarily it feels cheap right now. I I don't I don't think AI is good enough to to mimic truly creative voice. People people sense when there's no soul. I wanted to read this book, Shy Girl, just to see if I could get a feeling.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Or yeah, shy girl or whatever it was called.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

But you're your our our ability to detect that kind of stuff is pretty poor.

unknown 41:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Like I know I just said that like we sense when there's no soul, but like if you already know that there are questions swirling around it, then then I think things get muddled. It's true. We start as to assume things, and you're like, like, it's like you're seeing shadows. You know, like did I see it there? Did I see it there? And you don't know. There's no way to answer that.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Yeah. I think too, people that are using AI to write don't have the genuine love for writing and that true creative mind. So they're not going to be able to create. Although I don't know, AI is getting so good.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Like Yeah, you know what I think. I know, I know. I there's another part of it for for academics. Like academic writing, there's a lot of pressure to um publish. And I just heard this crazy story about um how uh there there have been businesses sprouting up that basically offer, how do I put it? Like they will create the paper and then they will reach out, and it's a fake paper. It's not based in any real research, and it has been written by AI, and they will reach out to academics who might be pressured to publish more and say, Hey, you can get your name on this as a co-writer. Uh, and you will, and we'll get it published in a major journal or whatever, and then you'll get the credit at your university. You just have to pay us for doing that work. And their name says they wrote this, but they didn't. They paid this company to just get it, get a fake paper published in a journal. This is apparently this has been a scandalous thing that's been going on. But I'm wondering if it's like if some academics are just gonna bypass it entirely and be like, well, I'm gonna use AI to write all my papers and try to get them to bring all.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

And to bring that back to our topic of jealousy, I wonder if that fuels a lot of this. Like you want to be successful, you want to be seen as like a big writer or scientist, and then temptations like AI or pressures, yeah, like these easy way outs. Uh you're like, okay, let me just do it and I'll it'll get me ahead. Help me be more successful.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Or save my career. Yeah. You know, like there's there's a desperation uh aspect to jealousy too, where like if you are, you know, like if you're not moving in your career and you feel like you're running low on time, you feel like you don't have forever, I completely understand those fears creeping in on you and being overwhelmed by the feeling of everyone's so ahead of me, uh, and getting bogged down by that. So you know, it's it's a highly relatable emotion uh to have. And anybody that's experiencing it, you're definitely not alone. Yeah, it's just a question of what you choose to do to move forward. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

I guess any emotion can be dangerous, like what we've seen with Wuthering Heights. Love it's not an inherently bad feeling, but it can become that way, it can become tainted. Jealousy is not necessarily a bad feeling, like for example, it few it fuels me, gives me fire, gives me goals to look towards. So I guess it's just how you utilize those emotions and feelings.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Yeah, because you're gonna experience them. I I don't beat yourself up for experiencing those emotions, but do reflect on how you react to them.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Right. Yeah. Because that it's not the emotion that defines who you are as a person, it's how you react to those emotions. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

Yeah. Exactly. I feel like that sums up our conversation really nicely, actually. I uh and now we can get to throwing some.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Let's tear down some authors.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Yeah, let's tear down some authors. All right. Do you want to go first? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

I have this really, really weird one. Two stars. Excellent. The lion, the witch, and the wardrobe. Ooh, classic. I love that one. Yes. Okay. Two stars. Welcome to Narnia, where nobody has genitalia. Is that the weirdest review you've ever heard?

SPEAKER_01 46:09

I was like, Yes. It was very strange.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

I was like, they wanted something different. Like something like were they wanting like sex? Like they should have read Fifty Shades of Grey or something.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

Like, I feel like they might they might be more referring to just a sense of realism. Like, I think there's a possibility of of what you're saying, but I also think that like I'm kind of getting the whiff of like they felt like it was too unrealistic, maybe too Christian. I don't know. So I think you're giving this too much credit. I don't know. And did they did they continue? Did they add anything else? Literally the only thing that they said. Nice. I I what I really want to know is how many other reviewers found that helpful. Oh, so many likes. So many. So many likes? Yes.

unknown 46:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Glitness gets you so far. It really does. People were like, wow, that's so deep. Okay, well, so mine is also uh a little uh different from my usual. I did not go to Amazon this time. I actually looked up the contemporary reactions, uh bad contemporary reactions to some classic pieces of literature. So my book is Ulysses by James Joyce, considered top, top, top literature. And it was not well received in The Sporting Times in 1922. Um and I wanted to read the review of it. It was it was pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

At the time, wait, at the time it came out?

SPEAKER_01 47:44

Yeah, at the time it came out in this magazine, The Sporting Times, they wrote this scathing review of this classic piece of literature.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

Yeah. So uh it says, Ulysses appears to have been written by a perverted lunatic who has made a specialty of the literature of the latrine. I have no stomach for Ulysses. Dot dot dot dot. James Joyce is a writer of talent, but in Ulysses, he has ruled out all the elementary decencies of life and dwells appreciatively on things that sniggering louts of schoolboys gaffaw about. In addition to this stupid glorification of mere filth, the book suffers from being written in the manner of a demented George Meredith. There are whole chapters of it without any punctuation or other guide. This is something James Choice is just absolutely famous for, um, or other guide to what the writer is really getting at. Two-thirds of it is incoherent, and the passages that are plainly written are devoid of wit, displaying only a coarse solacrity intended for humor. And I love this review. I love it so much. Um, because specifically its focus on the loneness of James Joyce's James Joyce's choice of subject matter in that book.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

We don't even have to go into what the loneness is, just like it's the fact that like there are so many people out there that are gonna be like, why did you focus on this stupid low aspect of life? And as a writer, I'm like, well, I want to write whatever I want to write about. Yeah. That's that's that's my choice. You didn't have to read it.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Yeah. Also, it just uh drives home the point that if someone is vehemently giving you the worst, like just like, I hate this book, then you've really written something successful. Like that's been really what my takeaway is from reading all these bad reviews.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think poor reactions are definitely something to be proud of. Yes. You can be you can be proud of the friction you cause in the world. That you've made somebody feel something. Yeah, exactly. Uh I would say that I actually I I do wonder whether James Joyce ever read this review and ever cared about it. Um, I mean, because when you look back at writers throughout history, many of them felt a great deal about the poor reviews that they got. And you're also not alone if you're worried about getting poor reviews and you feel something when someone is upset with you or calls your topic of choice low. I I I get it. Um the best writers have felt the worst feelings about their bad reviews. Probably gives them more emotions to write about. Yeah, maybe use it as fuel, as Sydney does. Sydney uses everything as fuel. Suffering leads to success. Yes. Let me write that down. As the token Russian on this podcast, I can say absolutely suffering is it's great. I I must be Russian.

SPEAKER_02 51:03

Like some part of me must be Russian. I gotta do with 23 in me or something.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

So um, what's our next section?

SPEAKER_02 51:10

The the next question actually ties in great with our topics today. It's from one of our listeners, Kevin. He wrote in, um, you know, is there a book that you've read that you wished you wrote?

SPEAKER_01 51:24

That's a great uh question specifically for this week. Is there a book for me that I wish I'd wrote? I mean, I'm I'm a personal, just absolute fan, lover of um this writer, Georgette Hare. I recommend her to everybody. Anybody that knows me, that's listening to this uh podcast is rolling their eyes. If I it's not necessarily one book, but if I could have a fraction of her talent at writing dialogue, I I would just be over the moon. I think she's so witty and she's so talented. Um, and the way that she brings humor and clarity into her her different scenes where I just I know exactly what's happening and why it's so funny and why it's so ironic. Like it's I don't know, someone described it and described her dialogue in a review in her uh a review of her books as like sparkling. And I was just like, that is that is exactly it. It's just so pristine and lively and funny. It just grabs you. Anyway, if I could be a fraction of how cool she is, I well was. She she wrote a long time ago, she's long dead. Uh I would be very happy. What about you?

SPEAKER_02 52:48

I there are so many authors that I love and admire, so many books that I adore, but and maybe this kind of ties into that competitive side of me where there's not a book where I say, I wish this was mine. It's more of like, I want to write a book where someone feels about it the way I feel about this book. So there's a feeling I get that I wish it was mine. Like the feeling I got when I read the Outlander series, or the feeling I got when I read Avatar, or the feeling I got even when I read Harry Potter, or like the Twilight series, I get this feeling where I'm like, God, I wish I could write something that makes someone feel the way I feel about this book.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

That's what I wish. You know what's the terrible irony is that you will probably never feel that about your own writing because it came from you. You know, it's just too familiar with it. But the other part of it is that you will create something that will make someone feel that way. Like I I think that that is absolutely just that's definitely in your future. Having read your writing, but also the fact that you're putting your work out there, it's getting published. There are so many people with different feelings and things that they want to get out of reading. They're gonna come across your book and they are going to have the time of their life.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Well, I hope someone if someone ever feels that way, I hope that they they tell me. I would love to hear it. Oh, you're you're gonna hear it. I I I promise. I see it. I see it in your future. I have a question for you. We should talk today about authors and books and these amazing stories and the craft of writing. But what gives a book its spark? What brings it to life?

SPEAKER_01 54:29

Oh, how do you get to that magic moment? Exactly. I have a ton of things to say about that. Oh, you do? Yeah. Uh, but you're gonna have to wait until next week to find out. All right. I guess we'll come back next week to hear your thoughts. All right. Well, we will see you guys all next week on Page Fright. Thanks for joining us. Bye. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 54:52

You just listened to PageFright. Don't forget to like and subscribe and write to us at PageFrightcontact at gmail.com.