Why Most Writers Get Rejected: And How to Bounce Back Stronger

Most writers face harsh rejections and industry surprises — but what happens after those low points? In this eye-opening episode, Sydney and Liza reveal their own struggles with doubt, delays, and even near quitting — and how they kept writing anyway. With raw honesty, they dismantle the myths of easy success and expose the messy, unpredictable reality of a writing career that might just save you.

You'll discover the brutal truths behind publishing timelines — from the year-long waits for book deals to the long road of marketing and sales transparency. They break down concrete stories of legendary authors like Stephen King, Dr. Seuss, and Nabokov, who faced rejection after rejection but ultimately changed literature forever. Plus, hear about the infamous 'second book curse,' the intricacies of contracts, and the deception around industry conspiracy theories.

This episode is perfect for writers feeling stuck, disillusioned, or questioning if they’re cut out for the industry. If you’ve ever thought about giving up, or feared your work isn’t good enough, you’ll find a dose of reality — and hope. Sydney and Liza remind you that even in the darkness, persistence turns failure into triumph. Don't miss these hard-won lessons for every writer determined to survive the lows and thrive in the highs.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What is it like to want to write? And I was just like, well, it's it's almost it's a compulsion. Like you have to do it. And you know what their answer was? We're like, oh my God, that sounds like a nightmare.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

And I was like, it kind of is. I saw something the other day that was like, I'm miserable when I'm not writing and I'm miserable when I'm writing. I have something important to say to you today. What is it? Happy six-month anniversary of our podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Okay, yes. Yes, I can't believe it's been six months. Scared me.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Sorry. You sounded like a character from like DuckTales when Donald Duck like screams.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Oh man. You know, I didn't watch DuckTales. I know nothing about DuckTales. Is that the one where one of them dives into a thing of gold? Yep. Like a mountain of gold coins.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Yeah, like their uncle, and it's Huey, Dewey, and Louie. And they're like the little nephews, and they're so cute.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Is that a was that Disney?

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Yeah, Disney. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

I didn't have the Disney channel growing up.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Oh, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

I was I was hardcore a Nickelodeon kid. Nice. I watched all of the Canadian shows because Nickelodeon was secretly Canadian. We're different. We are very different. I feel like we started out on like two parallel tracks in life. Just like I'm a Nickelodeon kid, you're a Disney kid. And like we're still on those like different tracks.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

No, no, because we we we connected our parts merged. Yeah. And now we're we brought ourselves together. Yes. We're and now we're a beautiful melding of our different personalities. Which brings me back to our anniversary. And I was thinking we could talk about why we decided to start this podcast because it kind of goes with today's episode of talking about failures and insecurities and issues in publishing. So maybe we can get a little sentimental here.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Because we decided to start this podcast without either of us having been published yet, which was kind of a big thing. Like the two of us we're talking about, it's just like, but we're not known. No one knows who the hell we are. Why would anybody want to listen to us? And it's not about listening to us, it's about joining. Exactly. In the struggle, in the reality of making your way to the agent, to selling your book, to writing another book and not caring if anybody read the first one.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Yeah. Well, we we we needed was a place to express our feelings because there was no place like this. And we we love to write. I mean, we write even if we don't get published, right? It's something that we have to do. And so we were like, why not create a space where we can talk about these things and talk about everything publishing and just totally nerd out and then let other people listen if they want to, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

You know, um, it's funny. I was uh talking to a friend a little bit ago, and they asked me, like, what is it like to want to write? And I was just like, well, it's it's almost it's a compulsion. Like you have to do it. And you know what their answer was? They're like, oh my God, that sounds like a nightmare.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

And I was like, it kind of is. I saw something the other day that was like, I'm miserable when I'm not writing, and I'm miserable when I'm writing. And I felt that so hard because it really is like yesterday. I was writing, I actually got 500 words written. Woo-hoo! And I was thinking the whole time, like, oh my god, this is not good. You're gonna have to rewrite this tomorrow. And I was like, What you why are you even writing right now? And now today I haven't written. And I've been, oh my god, you need to write.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

You need to text me the second that voice c rears its ugly head in in your head.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Like, you need to text me and I will tell it to shut up. I know, but I don't want to burden you with that because you already struggle with voices. I don't need to add mine to the mix. I mean, other voices, other people's voices mean nothing to me.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Like, you know what I mean? Well, what I mean is like, I care about you. I don't care about that voice. I'll pummel it. I'll I'll take it on. You can't my head. Yeah, the voices in my head intimidate me, of course, you know. But like, if it's if it comes to protecting a friend, then I'm there. You're so good to me. Yeah. Let's move on to our Wait What? Where today we are talking about the realities or unexpected realities of publishing. So let's say you get the agent, you have the book, it sells. What are some of the things that you might not expect to face once you get into that traditional publishing space? So I have one. Okay. And I think that you can probably talk on it pretty well, Sydney. It's how long it actually takes for your stupid book to come out.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Like it's crazy. It's a snail's pace. It is. And I am not someone that has patience. It's my worst character trait, and it takes so long. First of all, it takes you're waiting a year to two years, you know, to get an agent. Now you're going on sub another six months to a year. A year for me. Now you get the book deal, and I got my deal in October of 2025, and my book is coming out in February of 2027. And some people have it even longer. Some people have it eighteen like uh Heather Francis, she had 18 months before she's uh her book came out. So it's it's so long.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

It's like she wrote the damn thing pretty quickly, and then it's just like three years tick by and it's waiting for all of these different milestones, just people to get back to you, for covers to be made, for it to go through all the different editors, and you know, the publishing industry, the traditional publishing industry takes its sweet time.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Well, and you know what's even worse about that is let's say you're locked down for a couple years before your book comes out, especially if you're a big five editor, a lot of times they'll make it so that any fiction that you write moving forward, they get first look at, but they don't have to look at it until after your book drops or until the last book of your book deal comes out. So you could be strapped down without having anything else new that you've written be accepted by an editor for years. So you're just writing, not even knowing if they're gonna buy that from you.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

And really, that's why you shouldn't write to market. Exactly. You have no idea where the market is going to be by the time you get the right eyes on it. And it's the right series of eyes. It has to be agents, it has to be editors, it has to be publishers, it has to be all these different people in concurrence, and then it has to be the right time. Where, again, you know, our interview with uh Heather Francis last week, she she just dropped this bomb on me that historical fiction market had just cratered. And like your face. I I looked right in your face when she said that. My okay, this is how my face was like this when when she was saying that. I was like, but I was dying inside. No, you kept it together on the outside because I was waiting for you to be like, What? But you you were so professional. There's no room for historical fiction anymore. And I was like, hmm. Well, you're like, what an interesting factoy. Feels good. She assured me that it's coming back, but I'm like, hmm, okay. No, it is.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Because look at Bridgerton. Bridgerton is historical fiction, and that is so huge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

No, I well, it's funny because like one of the bigger like one of my comp titles is a big romance hit from the past few years, and it's historical fiction too. So who knows? And I used it with an agent, and the agent responded. They were like, oh, interesting. So whatever. No one knows anything. Everyone is trying to read a crystal ball in order to predict whether your book is gonna do well, and the reality is no one knows.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

I know. And then even to get a deal though, let's say your book is right on the money of what's selling right now. You know, right now, gothic horror, psychological horror is selling like crazy, and I'm out on sub with one of those. And who knows if an editor is gonna read that book and be like, yep, this is something I want to work on. So you just never know. And and I was thinking too another unexpected, quite terrible realization that many people will be shocked to hear.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Wait, are we are we are we uh kind of ruining up people's dreams here? Well segment.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

You know, not ruining, but you know, given some real talk, which is what this is about, right? Not sugarcoating, not gatekeeping, letting people know the re harsh- you know, so you can navigate. Exactly. Exactly. Because that's the hardest thing for me, entering the traditionally published world and even querying. I knew nothing. Nothing. I didn't even know what a query letter was, a synopsis, I was doing it all wrong for the longest amount of time that the query letter is different from the synopsis. I mean, I I could have used a podcast like this to tell me the real talk. Yes, exactly. Well, what okay, so what what is the real talk? Let's say you get a book deal. That does not secure you a place in the traditionally published world. You will now have to sell every single book moving forward. And there's something known as the second book curse, where a lot of people have a hard time of even writing it or selling it. People think that your first book is the hardest one to sell, and unless you have a two-book deal, then it'd probably be your third book. But it is actually harder to get the next deal, especially if your first one doesn't do that well.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Oh boy. Yeah, I can I can absolutely see that. I heard that that was something as well to worry about if you self-publish, because like they can see your sales before you debut with the traditional publisher. Yes. And that to me sounded scary, but it sounds like it's an inevitable reality. So self-publish, they'll see your sales, publish traditionally, and for the second book they're gonna see your see your sales anyway. So who knows? You know? And and I'll say this like it's completely unpredictable how well your book is gonna do. Like that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Although I have I have theory, I think I have conspiracy theories about this.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

I do feel like a publisher. Yes. I do feel like publishers know what books are gonna do well because I think they choose them. I think you sell a book and a publisher decides how well your book's gonna do, then they put all their resources towards it and they make that book happen. They have connections. I mean, think about it. They're networking, they they have connections to the lists, like like New York, New York Times. They have put money down, they have tons of money to put resources in on marketing and getting certain journals or columns or influencers to start promoting this book. And then before you know it, that book's doing really, really well. Yeah. Those are books that they've chosen. That's my that's my suspicion. But there are ones that surprise them, I think, where they just happen to have a natural momentum and then they become very popular, and then the publishers will jump on that. But yeah, I do do have that suspicion.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Suspicion too. I think that you are not far off because it's to me, it seems less of a conspiracy and more of just how things are weighted market-wise in the world, where if they if they can pump up the celebrity of an author, if they feel like there is potential, not only in in the book, the virality of the content, but the author themselves and the connections that the author might have. I feel like they choose, you know, what's easy to push and what's a little bit more difficult to push, what is really gonna do well with as wide of an audience as possible, what is what's more niche. And I mean, they have to choose where they're going to spread their resources. And as we know, we all know, publishing is not necessarily the most flush with cash industry. Like it hasn't been for a while. Like I these major publishers, like they're gonna put money behind your book, but like I've I've heard about mass spirings and like some of these different I mean, over the past few years. Like I've heard that like there have been many cash-strapped different publishers who are collapsing and being merged into each other. And like, it's not like it's Hollywood. It's not like there are tons of, you know, Mr. and Mrs. Moneybags like running around being like, I'm gonna put millions of dollars into pushing this book. It's like they're they're operating on a shoestring enough. At least that's what I hear.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Am I totally wrong? Well, I mean, I don't know. I mean, they I think that it's so good at gatekeeping and it's so behind locked doors that you know there's no way to know, I guess, unless you're in it.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Yeah. I mean, I I know authors who like can't even see how many books they've sold. And it's just like that's crazy to me because you know, uh, I know people in other creative other creatives in other creative industries, like video games, for example, and it's just like they could see what their sales are and they can predict how much money they made. And it's actually like possible, you know. It depends on the platform that they got on, like Xbox or PlayStation, uh, but like with Steam and and stuff like that. There there are ways to figure out how much actual product you pushed. Actually, that's for some reason you can't.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

It's so bizarre. Except for Amazon. The Amazon imprints, like Thomas and Mercer and Montlake and all of their imprints, they actually have a very author forward focus, and their author platform has real-time sales data. So you know exactly where you stand.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yeah, that's necessary. Like, why are we making authors like here's okay, so here's another reality of the industry. It's how much marketing you're gonna have to do. That's the crazy thing. You you can be published by a big five, you can be published by your dream publisher, and they're probably going to make you do all the marketing. And it's just like that's insane to me. And so why are they hiding your sales? Why are they hiding the thing that is going to motivate you the most, your sales? Like that is that's the end point of marketing. You market in order to see the numbers go up. You have to get that feeling, right? So why would they make you a marketer and not give you any feedback for how well your marketing did?

SPEAKER_00 15:11

I feel like publishing hasn't really moved up with the times. Like I think that's just how they used to do things because there wasn't things like internet and like other kind of platforms to let you see the numbers and they just haven't changed it. Especially because some publishing companies don't, but like the big five, a lot of times, only pay you twice a year. So you're going six months without knowing anything, how much you're selling, how much money you're making. And then in those six months, let's say you're depending on that income, but you have to wait, you have to sparse out your money or hope you get other deals or what during that time. I think it should be like every other week or a monthly payout schedule.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Yeah. I yes, I it should be a reasonable schedule. It all it also all depends on like how many books you actually sold and whether the like because if they pay you every two weeks, it could be like two cents a week.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Like, well, they could put a contract. Like, we'll pay you every two weeks unless the dollar amount is less than whatever it is to make it not worth it for them. You know what I mean? Just like make it more open for us to know what's going on. So another thing to look out for in your contract in terms of payment is if the publisher is going to give you an advance for your books that is jointly accounted or separately accounted. So let's say they give you an advance of $100,000. Woo-hoo! And they're gonna say, we're gonna do a jointly accounted $100,000, we're gonna buy both your books. And you might be thinking to yourself, sweeto neato. But then what you find out what that means, since it's jointly accounted, that means you have to earn out a hundred thousand dollars before you earn any royalties. So that's usually going through book one and book two before you start seeing any royalties, unless you have a bestseller on your hands. What you really want is for them to be separately accounted, which means let's say they're giving you 50,000 for book one, fifty thousand for book two, total advance of a hundred. You only have to earn out fifty thousand for book one before you start seeing royalties. So there's little things like that, you know, that I had no idea about before I got my agent, where you may not know about it and you think in your head, this is awesome, but it's actually not the greatest. So I I would really make sure you talk with your agent about these things before it comes time to contract time. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

So I don't know, there there are a million things that we could talk about with traditional publishing publishing, and I'm sure that we're gonna do that in a future episode, but we are out of time for wait what, and I think that we should move on to the main segment of our episode today. I'm really excited about it. Yeah, tell us what we're talking about. I mean, it's it's on theme. We got real about the publishing industry, and now we're gonna get real about writing life. Just what the realities are of deciding to become a writer, deciding not just to write your first book, but your second, third, your fourth, and that it's it's not all sunshine and rainbows and and successful whatever thousand-word days. There it comes it comes in phases and you're gonna have highs and lows, and I wanted to kind of talk about the lows today.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Yeah. So well, one thing that uh when you had brought this idea up to me before, when you talked about almost quitting, like have I thought, wow, I've never really thought about it, but there was a time I almost quit writing. Okay, tell me. I'm excited. After I finished it took me 10 years to write my first book, and it was always my goal just to write one book. And I wrote that book, finished it, and then I was like, thank God, finally, I'm done. This is it. I wrote my book, you know, one hit wonder, done. And I stopped writing. I started my career as a clinical psychologist, and I thought I had put it behind me. And then I had a really traumatic episode happen to me, and I was in the hospital, and my husband felt really bad for me, and he brought me he bought me a new computer because he felt so bad.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Okay. That's that's that's a husband move. That's a really just like, here's some new tech, honey.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Yeah, you're crying every day. And he actually got me a new phone during that time too. So he shows up to the hospital and he's like, he's like, you know, need to cry today. You have new things to play with. Here's your new phone, here's your new uh computer. And he even got it in like that rose gold color that I love. And that got me back in the game. I opened up the laptop, and this was back when like Kindle Vella was still a thing, and I started writing again in the hospital, and it reignited my love for it, and I was like, you know what? I'm still a writer. And actually, I I I started writing the book that's gonna be published next February in the hospital, and I wrote a huge chunk of it in the hospital. So uh that that book saved me in a lot of ways, like psychologically, because I was getting so depressed and had such bad PTSD in the hospital. So I wrote this book in the hospital, and then I got out and I was like, time for me to start querying. So it I I think maybe oh gosh, maybe three, four months later, I started querying that thing. And six months later got the agent. So that was a really low point slash high point for me. It was like I hit such a low, and then I realized, no, writing is something I need, it's something that saves me. And I had such bad PTSD for a couple years after that event, but I I remember going to my husband saying to him, and that that spring after I started querying, and I was like, I don't want to be a psychologist, I want to be a writer. Can I please I know we'd make decisions together, I want to quit this paying job and pursue this dream. And he was really taken aback. He was like, he was like, okay, you don't want to make money anymore. I should never have bought you that computer.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Well, it's not true. You it it's not that you don't want to make money because you're already getting deals, you're already making waves, and this this book is gonna make money. It's gonna turn a profit. I am I am certain. I I feel like deciding to become a writer is kind of akin to just deciding to start your own business, but you don't even know, like I I think it's even like it's just slightly worse. Like starting your own business is like, okay, well, actually, you know what? No, I I think it might be uh starting your own business is worse because you have to take out a loan in order to start it, and then you you have to you have to get into a hole to climb out of. And uh with with writing, if if you can keep your day job a lot of the time. There are tons of writers. The reality of writing is that you should keep your day job. You should. You should really do it. Don't go in on that as an insult. It's well, so you you have a a lot of examples of um women who are, you know, uh full-time housekeepers or full full-time moms. They're they don't have jobs. Like you can see that there's like a lot of writers from the Mormon community, you know, like there a lot of female writers from the Mormon community uh who publish because of that. They have this kind of ability to do that. Historically, you can see that a lot of writers were coming from well-to-do backgrounds, you know, some of the some of those famous writers with big books out there, like they had the leisure time to write, unfortunately, uh for the rest of us, you know. I think you can look at them and you're like, uh, so if you're in a position to do that, that's good. But there is also, you know, a downside to that because it takes a lot of self-motivation, you know. You like if if you are lucky enough to be in a position to write full-time without having to support yourself, you're either supported by family members or you're supported um by a spouse or something like that, there is a lot of self-doubt that can creep in. There's a lot of lost time that can happen because you know, if you're writing professionally, then like if you're writing professionally and you have an agent, if you're writing professionally and you have a deadline from for your next book already bought by a publisher, that's more akin to the working life, to the nine to five, where you're like, I have deliverables that I need to produce and submit. It feels more like school, that's that's relatable. But if you are in a position where no one is beating down your door for this precious little egg that you're laying, like it's just like I interesting analogy.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

I've never been so disgusted by Ryan.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Like, I okay, I could take that back. No, I loved it back. No, I loved it. That was beautiful. But like the reality is, like, most of the time no one's going to be asking you for your work. You have to, you have to produce without anybody pressuring you. You have to completely self-motivate yourself. So just to be completely transparent, that's me. Like, I I am in the I'm lucky enough to be in the position where uh I was able to also leave a paying job and pursue creative endeavors. And God, I feel so vulnerable saying this. Uh, but like I I did that and I thought it was going to be so much easier. Just I think that's the story for a lot of people where you you start on, you're like, it's gonna take me a year to to write a book, get it out there, get an agent, do all the things. And I found myself starting out with one idea and realizing that like it was just falling apart. Like I I just didn't know how to get it off the ground to a place where it was a a real story. I started out writing a fantasy story. Oh, different from the one you're on now. Yeah, totally totally different. I started out writing a fantasy story and I got this really cool magic concept. I got this really cool world, but I there were so many, there were internal contradictions like within the idea that just kept on stopping me cold in creating the drama between the characters. The magic kept on getting in the way of allowing my characters to have conflict, and but I didn't know that at first. I wasn't skilled enough to to recognize that at first. And I carried on trying to write and just feeling like it sucked for a long time. And then I I got to a point where I was just like, I like I might quit this, and like that would make me so sad because this feels like this is my purpose in life. And I Oh, you mean quit writing or you meant quit the project? Oh, quit writing. Quit writing because I was just like, I'm I'm not any good at this. Like I keep like I I thought that I was bad at just crafting a story as a whole. Like I kept on running into major architectural issues for the story, and I was just like, well, I guess some people can do it and some people can't. And I'd like I'd come from fanfiction world where like all of the architecture is pretty much made for you because you're a fan of a fiction that is already created. You're a fan of a world that has everything in place. It's it's been published, it's a show, it's a movie, it's a book. Someone's already made this thing, and you're riffing off of this awesome, awesome sauce that they already put together. But when you have to make the sauce yourself and you don't know all the ingredients you need to put in there, it becomes a problem. So anyway. Well, how did you decide?

SPEAKER_00 27:08

What made you think, okay, no, I'm gonna keep going?

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Uh it was kind of it it was like it was a few hard talks uh with my partner and just having like I mean I half quit, I half didn't. So so basically, like I went and got a day job uh because I was just like, I can't I can't survive just writing. It's it's it's just too hard for me. I feel purposeless, I feel like every failure in writing ended up becoming a failure as a human being for me. It that's a yeah, like it kind of got it got connected because a lot of people it's just like you're defined by your job. Who are you? I'm a text, you know, like before when I was a teacher, it wasn't like someone could be like, Who are you? And like you don't just say your name, you say I'm a teacher, I'm whatever, anything like a kid, I'm an astronaut, I'm a firefighter, I'm a I'm a psychologist, right? And before you're done writing your first book, before you're agented, before you're published, you can't say I'm a writer necessarily. Yes, you can. I know you can. I came to that conclusion later, but I think a lot of people struggle with that, you know, and I certainly was. So, I mean, obviously what I'm describing to many listeners sounds like champagne problems. And like on a certain level, they absolutely are. But if we're talking writer to writer, like I think that there's there are a lot of people out there that get emotionally stuck in the self-motivation or lack thereof aspect of it where no one's waiting for you to finish. You have to get yourself to the finish line, and it can be really difficult.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Well, I think too, what you're describing is, and I don't like the term jampaign problems. Everyone's problems like you always find someone happier than you or always find someone sadder than you. It just doesn't make your feelings. Feel luckier. Yeah, less less valuable. But I think what you were really describing is like struggling with identity and like who am I? Because in our culture, really, like you said, what you do defines kind of your value and like what you contribute to society. And if you're if you feel like you don't have a value to add, it can lead to like self-esteem issues.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Yes, exactly. And uh there's there is a lot of value added also, not just to the label of the job you have, but how much money your job makes.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Mm-hmm. So it's it's a it's a weird tightrope that everybody walks. And like I'd say, you know, bringing in women to this and stuff, just like, yeah, there's uh if you're a mom, if you're a stay-at-home mom, you know, there's no money made for that. And I think that there's like stigma around that.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Yeah, for sure. People I think people say with their lips, you know, to respect and revere moms, but I think there's not any policy or anything set in place to show that respect at all.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

So yeah, but I think that's how I felt as a teacher too. There was a there's said it for teachers and nurses, it's like, you are the greatest, you're a hero. I hated that. I hated when someone said I was a hero for what I did. I was just like, pay me $20,000 a year more. Pay me more. That's like bring up the amount. Don't make it so that if I move from DC to Texas, I have to take a $20,000, $30,000 a year pay cut. It's so ridiculous. Fuck that. Don't make me get a second job then. Yes. A teacher's hard.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

I'm a pillar of society, pay me. Yeah. If you value me, show me with the money.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

So I would say that like that's one thing that makes writing hard. There's another one, which is like getting yourself to the point of writing. So let's let's say that like because I was writing while I was teaching, and like it was so difficult to find the energy. Oh my gosh, I know, I know that feeling. Because so many jobs nowadays, it's you are evaluated on how much work you put in off the clock. Yes. That's that was teaching for me. They like they actually in my evaluation was like, Miss Petrov, you uh you stay after class. You you work with more kids than are on your docket. I was a special educator, so like I had a caseload of kids that I was supposed to like really concentrate on, but the school was just like, you also serve all the other kids. And it's just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like we should limit how much we spread ourselves out and we should focus on the things that we're assigned to and devote all of our energy to that. They were also just like you stay after hours, you and then the expectations were oh, you work on the weekends. Good, good, good, that's prepared for the week. Yeah. Like the that that was the expectation. And so you think about that for anybody that's trying to be an author and you think about tech nowadays, your boss can reach you at any time. No. Texting you, calling you, the emails just come just ping, ping, ping, push notifications, and just like, how are you supposed to close off the world and think about this little fantasy that you're creating?

SPEAKER_02 32:26

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

But I've also found, too, that now that I'm a full-time writer, is sometimes I'll have a hard time being motivated and I'll be a couch potato all day doing nothing, just telling myself you're such a loser for not writing. But then other times I will have spurts where this kind of consumes me a bit and I have a hard time being present. Like I will write all day, I'll be thinking about our podcast, I'll be doing edits, I'll be working on social media. And then at night my husband's like, Are you done working yet? Like, put your phone down and let's watch um something.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Yeah, let's actually spend some time together. I know, I know what you mean. So, like one of the biggest authors, David Baldacci, like I I don't really read him, but like I watched his master class or whatever, and I mean, he was a lawyer when he uh wrote his first book, and he would just basically like work during the day and then write at night. Amazing. And there is a there's a part of me, like I've I've done that where like I've worked, I I I kind of flipped it actually. I couldn't work after work. So I had to wake up, I woke up at 4 30, I'd go to this place, it was it was open, it was open 24 hours, so like I could go there. It was a cafe, coffee house for for students, because I live in like a college town, and it'd be still dark out, and I would work from when I arrived at five until about eight, thing like that, 745. And then I would clock in at work by nine. And that was something that I could do. And bizarrely, like that's how I finished the manuscript for the book that that you read, because like I was working at the time, and that actually helped me bizarrely. Like it made me go like I only have this pocket of time every day to write. So boom, boom. Like I would just kind of ping pong between them. And when the day was done, five, six, seven, then I could clock out and like tur totally turn off my brain. So I ended up having these clear segments of time that were devoted to different head spaces. That's interesting. And that helped me.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Maybe I need to do that. I need to have a clear I have noticed on days where I'm really busy and I have a full schedule, and I do my best work in the morning as well. I will get a lot more work done in the morning if I know I have a bunch of things to do in the afternoon. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

It's I I I find that actually, I'll tell you this. So I find that getting therapy helps with life problems. Imagine that. So, like uh full transparency, anybody that's newly watching us, I I have just rampant ADHD. And this is not because I scroll on my phone too much. Some people might think that, but that's not true. It exacerbates it, definitely. But uh I have since I was a kid, I was tested for dyslexia in the fifth grade, but it was because I had ADHD. I didn't I don't have dyslexia. I thought I did. I thought I was like, like they said that she doesn't have a dyslexia, but I just didn't believe them. But the reality was that I just couldn't pay attention to what was on the page long enough in order to read it properly, and that was the issue. Anyway, so I've had this forever, and only recently, within the past month, have I actually decided to go to an executive functioning specialist to help me with my ADHD. So And you're doing great. You are doing great. Yes. Well, anyway, so she is teaching me how to think about my day, how to think about structuring work time around the goals that I have. And I mean, it's it's actually changing my life. I can already feel it.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

I can already see. I've already seen it in you too. And in fact, and you're really, really good at setting boundaries. So I, as you know, am a little bit of a workaholic. So I will constantly be texting Lisa like at all hours, like, hey, did you see this number or look at this or take this? And she'll say, That looks great. I have my three things I need to do today. I will get to that later. It's a great boundary setting, basically saying, Sydney, leave me the alone at I gotta get some things down.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Well, it's really funny because so my therapist has given me homework, which is basically I have to come up or I have to set the three things that I have to get done by the next day, the night before. So, like before I go to bed, I have to write it down in a journal. And then like I have to actually accomplish it the next day. And what does it lead to? A, it leads to me going, oh my God, I can't even accomplish three things by mid-afternoon the next day. So though it leads to the perfect amount of shame for me to actually do it. It leads to me to self-discoveries. Like, I came up with three things that are just wildly too ambitious, and there's no way anybody could get done with those all three in one day. One of my lists included write a whole chapter, rewrite a whole chapter, write another chapter. It's like, what was I thinking? Like, what is wrong with me, you know? And then the final thing that it leads to is telling everybody, I have three things to do. So everybody that knows me now knows about my three things. They know that it's code for my ADHD craziness. Anyway, but they also know it's very serious.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

No, it is.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

I have to get this, I have to get this shit done.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

And and one of the things I texted you about, you even said that's my third thing for today. And I I had complete and utter, I was like, you know what? She's gonna get to it. I don't even need to say another thing.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

Yeah. No, I was talking to another friend, and I was just like, You're not on my three things to do today. But you will be tomorrow. I promised you. I think you told me that. I think that was I mean, yeah. So anyway, sometimes, like, I think that there are huge pluses and huge minuses to both writing with a day job and writing without a day job. Like when you're writing with a day job, you are dreaming of being able to spend your entire day writing. And when you are when you are spending your entire day writing, you actually kind of start to go, maybe I need that day job again, you know? Because you actually only write a couple hours a day. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So uh I don't know. I I don't know how people will react to this because everybody hates hearing about, you know, what the grass is actually like on the other side, you know. Yeah, they're gonna be like, you ungrateful. Yeah, exactly. We're we're probably gonna come off that way. But uh yeah, so there was another thing that I wanted to talk about with uh the realities of writing. Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Well, I actually looked up some authors that had really low moments. And I wanted to share them.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

I did too. You did?

unknown 39:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

That's awesome. Well, so mine was a list of absolutely fucking brutal rejections of famous authors from publishers. I cannot wait to read these quotes to you. They're really funny.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Okay. But you go first. Okay, I just have three that I wrote down because I usually write huge lists and then I have to, you know, shut it down, so I kept it short this time. Uh the first one I think pretty much everyone knows is that Stephen King uh threw Carrie in the trash and his wife pulled it out for him and and he resubmitted it, and he was he was ultimately rejected by 30 publishers before, so he went through a really low point of hating his work. Walt Disney was told he lacked imagination. That's pretty funny, right? Wow, he got a sweet ass revenge. Yes, he does. That's great. And then Dr. Seuss's debut, which is like not actually his name, but his debut was I saw it on Mulberry Street. That was rejected 27 times, and then he was on his way home to burn the manuscript, and he ran into an old friend who just happened to be a children's book editor, and then that's how he got his start.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

It's yeah, it's so serendipitous. And one of my favorite things is like what he was told in these rejections, is that it was too weird. I mean, it is weird. I love that. It is weird, but it like everybody loves it, you know. That's it's it's in that it's called imagination, you know? Ugh, yeah. And rhyming. Everybody loves rhyming.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Everyone loves rhyming, and and kids like to think of weird things, so it's so you know, entertaining to them. I've got to hear these rejections. I'm so excited to hear this.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

So, Little Women, Louisa May Alcott, she was told by publisher James T. Fields, stick to your teaching, Miss Alcott. You can't write. Love it. Yeah, very, very direct response. Another one, which I love. This this one was one of my favorites. Ernest Hemingway. Uh, the sun also rises. He was told by Peacock and Peacock in 1925, I found your efforts to be both tedious and offensive. And also, they complained that his sentences were short and stunted. I love that, because a lot of people just completely fetishize his uh his short sentences and his very dry style. That's amazing. And I personally love it too. Like, I anyway. Uh, okay, another one. This is gonna uh be an arrow through many a male heart. Uh Frank Herbert, Dune. What? Really? So, wait, what are you reacting to? That men love it or that Dune got Dune. No, okay, yes. So one publisher claimed that uh his science fiction epic might just be quote unquote the mistake of the thousand-year decade. I think that that was a euphemism for it's fucking boring. Wow. I love it. I love it. Wow. Another one, I have uh just a couple more. This one actually was almost my uh tomato throne. Not not what this guy said, but this book. William Golding, who wrote Lord of the Flies, publisher said, uh called it an absurd and uninteresting fantasy, which was rubbish and dull. I love the way these publishers talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Are these publishers just saying this to them like rejecting the manuscript?

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Yeah. These are all dismissals. These are these are writing to the author, telling them why we didn't accept you. This is horrible. This is like abuse. Yeah. I cannot believe this. Okay.

unknown 42:59

I am.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

He got uh 21 rejections uh for Lord of the Flies. Uh and then my last one, of course, Nabakov, Lolita. It was rejected across the board by a bunch of people uh by a bunch of publishers. And uh one of them said, it is overwhelmingly tedious, lurid, and unprintable. And you know what?

SPEAKER_00 43:19

It like it it's a it's a spicy book. Wow. I am blown away. Well, the good news is is that publishers are a lot nicer now, or at least my rejections have been like, you know, very kind, like the almost the form response of like, I just didn't quite connect with it.

unknown 43:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

I hope you find a home where they will champion it. You know, that's kind of like the standard response now. Thank God. Yeah. Yeah. Instead of telling you you you should uh get a day job. Yeah, you should take this manuscript and shove it where the sun don't shine. Yeah. You don't deserve to write.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

How dare you should never hold a pen in your hand ever again. I don't want to Yeah, throw at your typewriter.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Yeah. Well, I loved those. Thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Yeah. Uh yeah. And I wanted to share those because again, that is the reality of being a writer. People will absolutely despise your work. People will question why you are doing what you are doing, whether you deserve to be doing what you're doing. Some of those people will even be yourself. Yes. So yeah. But it's okay. Just keep going. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Now let us throw tomatoes at well-regarded books to show that no matter how successful you are, people are still gonna shit on you.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Yes. This is the get-real episode where we just say it, start cursing. So this person thought Lord of the Flies uh was the worst book they had ever read. Uh and they wrote, do not let the high rating fool you. This book is awful. Believe me, the most stupid, immature plot I have ever read. Please don't. Yeah. Three people thought that that was helpful.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

So it's so interesting that they think their opinion is above all else. Like above all others. But they hated it, and that is the truth, and so you will hate it too. Yeah. That's so And you know what?

SPEAKER_01 45:18

I I like it kind of reminds me of uh our interview with Heather Francis. Her book just came out, by the way. Uh you should check out our interview. Anyway, so it reminds me of what she was saying about bad reviews. And I thought that she had such a healthy perspective on it. Yeah. Just just how like everybody wants what they want. And they're going to voice their opinion. And they have a right to, right? They have a right to say that they wanted something and then they didn't get it, and your book just wasn't it. And you have nothing to do with that. It it is not a comment on your self-worth or the worth of your book really. Well, I love that she said one star reviews help sell books. That was Yeah, I like that too. That made me feel better. So Amazon should listen to that.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

So I love Darcy Coates. I think writes amazing, amazing horror. And I love I I I mean they're short, sweet, fun, just really good books. One of them I love is The Haunting of Ashburn House.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

But this person hated it. They gave it one star. And I feel like this person completely missed the point of like a gothic horror. And Okay. But so if you just listen to this, you'll see that they just don't understand the genre in general. The story was stagnant. The author went into great detail about mundane and irrelevant things such as every step to making tea several times a day. Adrian started to become irritating because every day she thought about the same things, and the words the author chose were strange. I felt like find and replace this thesaurus was overused. Many times I had to reread paragraphs because they didn't make sense. I did not find that at all. That never happened to me. The word groan is used forty-four times. That's a great example of repetitiveness. How can the sun feel beautiful on your skin? How can it set on the top of the trees? Why did she keep buying dry cardboard noodles for herself but expensive cat food for Wolfgang? Wolfgang was her cat. If the portraits were that creepy, why not take them down? Why didn't she bring some of the million candles downstairs? She only got paid sixty dollars for one of her two write-ups? Was she never going to put the electricity in her name? Why go on about the old dusty grimy house but only have her randomly go over furniture with a cloth? I don't know, that's her concern was over Marion's car possibly being a write-off instead of the fact that Marion very well could have been dead? If the house is meant to be isolated, why was she always pleasantly surprised by how quickly she made it home on the trail? How could a thick blanket be unsettling? And it just goes on like that.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

Where you you know what? I I'm I'm gonna I have a hot take. Okay. This person needs to be hired to write the questions for book clubs in the back of the books. Because some of these questions, I was like, I haven't read this book, but some of them sounded distinctly like what an English teacher would ask you in order to dig into like the deeper psychological meaning of a story. Yes. Like some of these are deep. They they're this isn't this isn't a critique of the book. This is like, okay, food for thought.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

Like, let's talk about it, guys. Yes, yes. I yeah, very interesting. And so many questions. I'm like, were you you had so many questions, like were you actually reading the book?

SPEAKER_01 48:38

I mean, I'm like, I feel like you were having more fun than than you thought you were.

unknown 48:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

I'm serious. Like some of these questions, I'm like, because this is dom she's domestic horror. I haven't uh I haven't read the book.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Yeah, like like contemporary horror.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

Okay, so if this is but there's like horror in the domesticity, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Yeah, well it's like haunted houses and and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Okay. I like oftentimes in books like that the the f the scariness is in the mundane. Exactly. And like it's really funny because this reader was like tapping into it. They were bothered by it, but they didn't really grasp that that was the point of the book.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

This the creepiest thing to me is when you read the same routine over and over and over again, and then when they're at one point in the book, they're doing the same routine, but then something is slightly off. You know, she goes to reach for the tea packet and it's not there this time. Or she's walking down the steps past her family portrait, but the last one that she knows is gonna be there with her on the swing when she was two years old is slightly askew. That's not right. You know, those are the creepiest things that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

I know. I like that too. It sends a chill down my spine. Well, anyway, today was fun. Today also slightly scary revealing little things about myself. I don't usually uh do that.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

So I don't, but I I really appreciate you sharing, and I think your story is so relatable to so many people. And is it yes, it is, it is. I think we're all connected with these similarities, no matter how it plays out in our own stories. I mean, your your story about finding identity and figuring out what you love and having self-doubt, that's what everyone goes through. It's just your story is unique to you.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Mm-hmm. That's true. Thank you, therapist.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

You can take me out of the therapy room, but you can't take therapy out of me.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

It seems like it. You do a good job. It's fun to talk to you. I'm getting strangely overly attached. Anyway, that's sorry. That's that's a therapy joke. Um, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Okay, okay. We're having too much fun officially. Well, thank you so much for listening, and we will see you back here next week on PageFright. You just listened to Page Fright. Don't forget to like and subscribe and write to us at PageFrightcontact at gmail.com.