Genre Rules & Why You're Still Stuck In the Query Trenches

Sydney and Liza are back with a no-fluff episode that digs into the real rules behind bestselling genres—and why breaking them can make or break a book. If you’ve ever wondered what actually makes a thriller feel thrilling, why romance readers expect certain beats, or how cover art and genre tropes shape what sells, this episode is packed with the kind of behind-the-scenes publishing insight writers need.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Let's say if they're trying to kill each other. Yes. Okay. Now that then okay. So the the stakes rise from basic divorce woes to life or death and divorce woes.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Exactly. You divorced me, and while I have a lot of feelings about that, I am also going to kill you for making me have these feelings.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Well, I'm really excited to see you tomorrow. You can be in town, you're gonna be in Austin for the big Writers League of Texas conference. Yes, I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Although it's so funny because by the time this airs, we'll have already completed the conference.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Yes, so many things will have happened by the time this airs, so much drama, so many life-changing experiences. But seriously, I think it's gonna be a really fun time, and I can't wait to see you and to be out there with all the other authors who are going to be, I don't know, following agents and editors around the conference hall the entire time.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

I know. Last time I was like looking at the agents that I knew I wanted because I didn't have one at the time, and I was like trying to make eye contact with them, and you know, I was just all I could think about was agents. So this time I'm gonna be a little bit more grounded, just able to hang out because I'm not having to think about that the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Yeah. I mean, this time for me, I felt that the selection of agents and editors wasn't necessarily going to be the right fit for the story. So I'm not gonna be pitching this time, which kind of sucks. But I think it was a good decision on my part, and we'll see what happens at the conference. I want to go to all the business same platforms or whatever, uh, all the business classes, yeah. Classes and everything, talking about what is happening in the publishing industry right now and how to navigate the industry as an author with a completed manuscript. I'm I'm gonna be staying away from the craftier side. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

I'm really interested in one that I think is her first name, Elizabeth. I think it's Elizabeth Copps. She's like on the Cops Agency. She's doing one on literary trends for 2026. That's exciting. I definitely want to be there. So I'm gonna go to that one. And then how to survive your debut year.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

All sorts of ones like that I'm gonna go to.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yes. So your debut year is creeping up on you. How are you feeling?

SPEAKER_01 2:21

I'm ready for things to get going. I'm ready for like let's. I feel like I've been talking about it and talking about it and talking about it for years, and I'm ready for it just to finally be here.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Are there any worries that you have? Any kind of you're like, oh my God, what if this happens? Or anything like that?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

I don't think so. I tried to just only look at the positive. I mean, I've talked to you guys about the fear of it not being well received, of course. But other than that, I'm just kind of going with the flow and not allowing myself to get my feathers ruffled really about anything. You know, I'm I'm pretty laid-back person in general. So I don't really have a strong preference for cover art. I just want it to look good. You know, I just like make it look good.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

I mean, that feels like a low bar, but it's actually pretty high. You know what I mean? It's like saying to your wedding dressmaker, I just want it to look good. Your wedding dressmaker is gonna be like, great.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

That's hilarious because that actually is what changed my perspective was that analogy at the last conference we went to.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

They said someone else compared it to a wedding dress?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yes. Someone said, authors, the biggest advice I can give you is this is not your wedding dress. Trust your hell yeah, your publisher and the sales team to know what sells in terms of color, in terms of things that are on the front. Even on NetGalley, if you look at their page, one of the first questions it asks you when you request a book to read it. And for those of you that don't know, NetGalley is a place where you can go and read books that are soon to come out. It's like an advanced copy that you can get as a reader. You can make an account, and I think it's free. I'm not sure. Is it? I don't know. It was free it was free for me to make it.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Oh, how nice.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

If you go So if you go on as a reader, I'm pretty sure, or a writer, pretty sure it's free. And one of the first questions they ask you is like, Are you drawn to this cover? Do you like the cover? And they take all that data, these publishing companies, and they understand what is drawing people to these covers. And so I've been learning like blue is like an in-color. Okay. In thrillers specifically, like houses on the covers are really selling right now. There's just weird things like that that the publishers are in the know about.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

A funny thing about that, I saw a reel a little bit ago about trends in publishing with covers. It was for historical fiction. And the trend in historical fiction is always just like lady walking away. Like if it took place in the 40s, if it's sometime in the early 1900s, it's just lady walking away.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

That's so funny. I thought you were gonna say lady laying in a field of tall grass.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

I feel like no, that you know what that is? What that's um a mystery thriller try to discover who the dead girl is. Like, you know, my best friend died in high school, and it's just like lady in lady in a field.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Dark romance is a skull on the front every time. Like somewhere on the cover, there's a skull. It's happening. Or abs. Yes, abs. Of course, there's abs.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

I don't know. It's I mean, romance covers are really interesting because there's I this is this is a hunch that I have. It's not something that I've actually seen out in the world. There's no hard I'm not pulling from any kind of hard data, but like romance in particular, I feel like the covers I don't even know how much they matter because I would assume that a lot of romance books, especially on the spicier end, ladies are not getting the physical copies. They're not reading the physical copies in front of a bunch of people on the bus, you know? They're getting it on tablets, they're getting it on devices, on their phones, and no one sees the cover of a book when you read it on your phone, right? I don't know, but maybe it's uh but there are tons of there's an older demographic that doesn't doesn't want to read that way, that wants to read paperback. I have no idea, but I just like I I wonder if there's something different about, especially more erotic side of the genre. Like you don't necessarily want to be seen reading that in public, if that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Like, what were the sales for Fifty Shades of Grey?

SPEAKER_01 6:41

I was literally just thinking that. I wonder where people were reading that. I read that on my phone, I think.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah. Because, you know, there was a good chance that someone would take a picture of you reading it and then post it online, you know. You know what I mean? Like, so many people took pictures of other people reading that dirty, dirty book. That's so rude. Yeah, I know. And but it it ba it basically makes me think like how many women transition to reading on a device for that specific book and how much did the cover matter then? Because I will say this the cover still matters when I pick something online for me. That's true. But uh yeah, I I wonder if it varies from genre to genre based on the content.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Me, I don't care. I'll read my whatever book I want, cover and all in public. I'm still reading and I'm gonna enjoy myself.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

What I don't understand I'll never I'll never read a book with abs on the cover. In public. I have read I have read a few in private, but in general, I don't know. There's something about that that turns me off so much. I don't I don't know. This like turns you off.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Like from you reading it turns you off, or seeing someone else reading it turns you off. Something about the book. It just makes me want to turn away from the book. I'm just like it's a cheesy. Yeah. I don't know. It's very cheesy. I I don't like the cheesy, or if you see the man like with his hands up, or even the woman swooning, I don't appreciate that in a cover. I don't like it.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

I would I would take an old school 80s bodice wrapper cover over a close-up of some headless man's abs, like any day of the week. No, no.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

I I would choose the headless man with abs. This is how we're different. I can't do it. No, no, no. What I don't understand is the contemporary romance that has the cartoon characteristics. I like the cartoon. I think it's so tasteful. I I agree. I like it, but it's I'm so interested that that sells.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

You wouldn't think that. I think I think it sells because it kind of like it blunts it, you know? Like I it doesn't make you feel like you're reading a dirty dirty book. Like it's gonna have some dirty parts in it, but like I think that I actually do think this is the thing that drew me in to my first cartoon cover. Okay. Because I remember uh first seeing a cartoon cover being like, oh, this is different. I wonder if this is a different sort of romance book. And my thought in how it was different was maybe it has a better plot, maybe it has more care in the way they craft the romance around the dirty dirty parts. And the characters are fuller and there's just I don't know, more consideration around it. Because like I had started to think that like these other romances were just, you know, just w whip one out, you know, just like write it in a month. I don't care about these characters. Well whip whip it out the book. I thought you meant whip it out. And just just, you know, stamp stamp a story down and move on, stamp a story down and move on. And that's how I started feeling about those books with like the abs on the cover. And then I saw a cartoon cover and I was like, hmm, maybe there's more plot here. And for that particular author, it ended up being Tessa Bailey, who I I like I like her very much. I think she she she always hits the mark for me, where I'm like, okay, I I like the chemistry that you're picking. I I like what how you're putting this together. And uh yeah, well, I think that that actually might be a good note to spring us into our main topic for today. Yes. Yes. Which is mostly based around craft. You're the one that came up with the idea though, so I think you should introduce it.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Well, I wanted to talk about something that I really struggled with in the beginning of my writing journey, and which ultimately I think kept me from getting a book deal much faster, was that I did not follow rules exactly, which may end up working in my favor, but I did not follow genre rules, meaning that I did not completely stick to one genre and what elements are in that genre. I did more of a genre blending, which ultimately made it more difficult for me to sell a book because publishing companies didn't know where to put my book on the shelves if they were to sell it. So I think it would be helpful for us to talk about genres, what's expected in these genres, and maybe even some z sub-genres, and talk about what are the rules, what are the must-haves. And that way it can give you know our listeners a better idea of of what they need to have in their novel to check off the box of yes, I am in this genre, and yes, I can be sure that publishers will know exactly where to put it on the shelf.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Mm-hmm. Exactly. I think it's going to be a very helpful episode. So you wanted to start off with thrillers? Sure. Yeah. I'm very excited to learn. Teach me.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Well, I've had to learn this the hard way. So thrillers are, I think, most people think they're just these fast-paced books with that are scary, but not a lot going into them. And it's actually not true at all. There's a lot of things you have to have in a thriller. It must have suspense, tension, and it must make your audience feel anxiety. And you do that with some type of high-stakes situation, usually life or death. And there must be a strong hook with this high-stakes situation.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Like so, like a slowborn a slow burn divorce dialogue, heavy drama is not a thriller.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

No, no. Although that is something that thrills me. It is not a thriller.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Okay, let's say if if they're trying to kill each other.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Okay. Now that okay, so the the stakes rise from basic divorce woes to life or death and divorce woes. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

You divorced me, and while I have a lot of feelings about that, I am also going to kill you for making me have these feelings.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

So basically, the rule for thrillers is start out with what you're comfortable with and then make it so much worse. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

And the key here is to make it as simple as possible. So you want to be able to have a one-liner, which is basically if someone says, What is your book about? Which, as authors, this is our worst nightmare because we're like sucks. It's about everything in my heart. It's about the world and it has so many metaphors. Yes. I mean, it's still how I feel. Yes, it's how we feel. But what we want to be able to say is a one-liner. This is a book about a married couple secretly planning to kill each other. That is what your book is about. Not about this couple who are searching identity and over time they've grown apart. And this is about them finding themselves while simultaneously, you know, just like, no, no. The book is about them trying to kill each other. Yeah. So that is the beginning part. It must be fast paced. You want to have it on the shorter side. So it must be between 70 70,000 words to 100,000. But uh the trends this year is that people are wanting shorter, faster-paced books. So a lot of publishers want it between 70 and 85. Uh I was nervous about I was nervous. But you know what? This is thrillers. This is not your genre, okay?

SPEAKER_00 13:45

You know what? I remember when thrillers in the 90s were just giant bricks of books. I know. Like like literally this thick. And you could just eat them up, you know? Just there was some sort of government secret, running from men in SUVs, ducking bullets, and boom, it was big tone.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

I liked it. I I liked it too. I prefer me some big books that I'll feel like I'll never finish.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

I mean, I if it's fast-paced enough, if it has the pacing down, if it has enough twists and turns, I don't care how long it is.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

There also must be a threat to the protagonist. Now, whether this protagonist is the protagonist through the whole time, or whether in the end this protagonist is actually the villain the whole time, there must be a threat to your main character. There must be some villain. It doesn't have to be a two-dimensional, like waha ha villain, but there must be some type of villainous figure in your book. There must be twists and turns and red herrings, and there is usually a clock or a time limit on your characters. Like if they don't do this in this amount of time, then this terrible thing will happen.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Yeah, like a literal countdown.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

So for example, in my book, Our Love Language is Murder, they have seven days on their honeymoon to pull off their plots to kill each other.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Now, to make things more difficult is that there are also sub-genres in the thriller genre. Mm-hmm. So if you're looking at a psychological thriller, now we're gonna be looking at things like unreliable narrators because the threat is usually internal. That's something that your main character, your protagonist, is dealing with. So you're gonna see a lot of turmoil within usually your main character is both the protagonist and the antagonist, but we you know, we won't dive into that.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Wait, what? No, uh hold on, hold on. We don't need to keep this in, but like tell w what? Usually your thriller character is the protagonist and antagonist?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

In in like a psychological thriller.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Okay, okay, I understand.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Cool. In the subgenre. Okay. And then in the legal subgenre, it's usually justice system and corruption within like legal officials.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Like like the firm, for example. The firm is a great thriller about, you know, a lawyer getting his dream job at a uh somewhat kind of reclusive, uh, but really well-paying, intense law firm. And he uncovers webs of corruption and a possible, you know, death. And it it's it's great. It's also a great movie.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

So I love those two, like where usually the protagonist is a lawyer in these types of books and trying to get their client off, or they're trying to defend a bad guy. Yeah. And you're finding all this corruption with the police officers, and you're trying to follow the clues, and then usually the lawyer's in danger by the end, and he must save his life before it's too late.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

I mean, have you seen The Firm? No. Oh, you should. I mean, you should read it. The the book is great. I really like the book. Also, Tom Cruise is great in The Firm. Very younger. Oh, so this is an older one. Yeah. It's John Grisham's breakout thriller novel.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Oh, I knew this. I don't know what I'm thinking. I was thinking of Contemporary and then my mind got Yeah, I knew this. Yeah. It's it's one of those bricks.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

And it's really well loved. James like self-published. Yeah, yeah, and then got picked up.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Man, one of those- He used to sell it out of his car, I think.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

I bet he looks back so fondly on that now. I bet not I just remember the simple days when I used to live in my car and sell it out of my car.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Okay, I'm not saying he lived in his car. I'm just saying that he might have sold it out of his car.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

I'm broadening this story into making it more interesting.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Yeah. Let's let's give him some more turmoil.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

And then just the final two spy thrillers usually have global disasters and national security issues, and then usually it's always the problems inside the house. It's usually some, you know, CIA agent that's betrayed the country. And then domestic thrillers focus on like people within a household or in a relationship. So it doesn't have to be like a husband and wife, it can be sisters, an uncle, a family. Um it's just usually really focused on relationships. That's why I got very confused about mine. I thought mine was not a domestic suspense in the beginning. Remember, and I thought it was women's fiction?

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

No, but no, it was a domestic.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Yeah, your stakes are your stakes are so high that it it gets thrillery.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah, exactly. But alas, it is not.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Well, at least someone told you.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

So And that was your agent? Who she was just like, let's let's fix this and get a sold.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Yeah, she was like, so let's talk Well, actually, it changed again when I sold it. She changed it to a thriller, I think. Mm-hmm. It's been so long now, I forgot. And then my publisher changed it to Oh, yeah, and then they were very adamant about being a domestic suspense.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Okay, okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

So it's changed a lot. It even was a dark romance at one point. I mean, the genre of my book is just because it is genre blending.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

It's changed so many times.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Is it does it get explicit? Does it have explicit sex scenes? Yeah, girl. What? Okay, okay. It is open door. Wow. Interesting. Yeah, that is that is genre blending. Because usually when you read a thriller or you read suspense, there's no intense like there's no open door. Like it is definitely like if they have sex, it's like it's written in a just a different way. You're further away, you're not, you're not in it with them. So that's what I've found when I read thrillers and suspense books. Usually, usually when I read domestic suspense, especially, like one of the couple is already dead or trying to kill the other, and the sex is just their sex life isn't very good anymore.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

That's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Or they're sleeping with other people. Yeah. Okay. Well, so what a fun rundown.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Thanks, girl.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

That that shifts it to me. And I we're only covering kind of two big slices of uh publishing today. Uh so that was Thrillers in Suspense. I'm gonna cover romances. And yeah, so all romances, the way that I like to think about it is they are it's like a a video game. You know what the end is going to be. You you know what you want from it, and you're gonna be doing the same, or like a roller coaster, you're gonna be doing the same ride over and over and over. And your expectation is that okay, you're done and alive at the end and you're ready for the next trip, basically. So uh every romance breaks down into these this basic structure. So if you want to write one, you have to have first a meat cute. That is that is an essential part of romance storytelling, but it doesn't mean that like a meat cute, the reason why it says meat cute is like there's a fun little twist, there's a little clever thing around it, something that makes it feel new. Oftentimes in romantic comedies, it's like it's funny, it's ironic, or maybe a little bit tragic, but always kind of in a dark humor sort of way. And uh but like with other types of romances, uh, you can have more serious romances, but it's like the characters uh do have to have some sort of interesting way that they came into each other's lives. It can happen on screen or it can happen off-screen, that's your choice, but you have it it is a major driver of the rest of their relationship and thus the rest of the book.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

And don't you think that the meat cue is also very sub-genre driven?

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Yes, it is. It is very subgenre driven. Um because like I was saying, with rom-coms, it's often funny or ironic, or like you're like you're kind of going, you know, for yeah, cringy for for the the the main female lead. Usually it's the female lead because romances are generally they're they're written for women, but you can also Have meat cute that are more action-oriented, like an Outlander. The Meat Cute is she goes back in time and she is thrown into a whole Scottish pack of guys, like captured by them. Yeah, she's captured by them. She's also almost raped by like the main bad guy of the series or whatever. I forgot about that. Yeah. Her husband's, her actual husband's ancestor almost raped her, like immediately. Hilarious. They're basically twins.

unknown 22:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

It's great. Anyway, so but she's she's like taken off by all these uh by the Scottish horde. And she ends up, she ends up meeting the guy in, I think she has to be a nurse. She was a World War II nurse in her regular life before she went back in time. And then she has to nurse him back in some way. She performs an act of heroism in this action-packed romance upon him. And that is how they meet. But then from there, after the meat cute, they have the inciting incident, which is I think they have to get married. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And the inciting incident in romances is often what it is, is it's the thing that throws your characters together. It's a pact or like it's it's an agreed upon pact between them, like a, and this kind of goes into each of the subgenres of romance, which is like you can have their fake dating in order to, you know, accomplish some goal. They have to convince everybody that they're dating, but they're not. They actually hate each other. Why did they decide to do this? Classic. Classic. Um, or in this outlander instance, they have to be married according to, I can't remember exactly. I've read it so long ago, but for for the Scottish Horde. The Scottish Horde was like, you have to get married.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

I think it was to save her or something, to keep her from being taken or something.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Yeah, there was some sort of like, if she didn't want something bad to happen, she had to marry this guy. And that is an example of forced proximity. Um that's one of my favorites. Yeah. So if if you if you're an avid romance reader, you follow authors online uh to see what their next book will be, you'll often see that they um they'll show like they'll do a cover reveal and then they'll write out all their different tropes for for their romance. And oftentimes a trope is forced proximity or fake dating, stuff like that. He's my boss. Like, very, very silly, almost porn level categories. Uh I mean, I'm serious. Like, what one of these days a trope is gonna be delivering a pizza. Like, it's just, I don't know. Anyway, uh, so the inciting incident essentially is it's what gets your plot rolling and what forces your two main lovebirds together and keeps them in each other's proximity for the rest of the story. Then you have your kind of fun part in act two. It's uh rumping and rolling action. Yeah, rising action, milestones. And here is is kind of where it gets interesting. So this is the part for romances, and you're gonna have to make this decision if you want to be a romance writer, where you decide when and if you are going to open that door and have them have sex in your book. Like that, that is an essential decision for any romance writer. You can have a closed door book where it's mostly like the this section of the rising action and the milestones is all around tension between the characters and it escalates just to just through the course of like maybe we'll start a relationship, or definitely we're gonna start a relationship and there's like a kiss. Or you can take it further and you can have sex on the screen and or in your book. And once you decide that, this is the section at which you decide the type of romance that you're writing. Because in essence, like it is an erotica book if you have them have sex before 10% of the of the book isn't. That's that's my in general, right? It's it's gonna be that. And most romances that you see on shelves in bookstores, like big, popular, big selling ones with with explicit sex scenes in them, usually have that kind of action happen like 50% of the way into the book. They choose between 50% and 70-80%. So for example, uh Tessa Bailey book, for example, she always has it happen smack dab in the middle of the book. Almost always. You can you can basically time it. You can go if you're reading it on a Kindle, you can go to the 50% mark, you will probably land it. Yes. Or like 45%. It's like that is that is the middle turning point of the book uh for a lot of her plots. For for another author, we talk about her a lot, Emily Henry. A lot of the times her sex scenes happen like 70% of the way through the book. Like they're they're closer to the end. And all that is is a marker of how deep are you going into the emotional character development journey of the two love interests? That's that's pretty much that's what that and you're deciding, like, okay, am I am I writing a more complex and nuanced story, or am I trying to write something commercial and more like direct and hard-hitting and and just fun? So uh that's that's the kind of decision making that you're doing in the rising action milestone scenes, because sex between these two characters is a major milestone, and deciding whether it where it happens or whether it happens in your book is extremely important. And then the end of your book, your third act is basically just it's these three things, all just like boom, boom, boom, and they have to happen. No matter what. If you're writing romance, you have to have these three. One is the dark night of the soul. Like that is that is the breakup. Your couple is going to have to be tested. They they may have fallen in love, they may feel all the feels for each other, but some either some sort of internal dynamic in their relationship has to fall apart, or they are tested externally from outside and they fail temporarily. That that is that is an essential part of any romance. And I would argue.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Again, why must this be a part of a romance?

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Because so I would argue! You're so fed up. Yeah. Well, here's here's part of it. It is essentially part of almost every story that we consume in general. If you think back to most of the stories that you have enjoyed, horror is a little bit of an exception, but most stories follow this where you have a point at which your heroes are going to be overwhelmed by your villain. Whatever your villain is, it can be, it can be another character, it can be uh, it can be a s a natural disaster. And whatever's happening that is pressing upon your heroes, that is challenging them. It will overwhelm them temporarily to make your near the end in act three, to make your audience go, are they gonna make it through? How are they gonna make it through? This seems impossible. And then after that, they rise above. So in a romance, in order to rise above, what usually happens is is is a grand gesture. That that is something that readers expect. It's part of the genre. You have it's most often the guy, but it can be the girl. And when you think grand gesture, the the you should you can picture the most basic form of it is running through the airport with the flowers, you know. This is me revealing myself as a millennial. At one point, at one point in history, you could run all the way up to the gate. I know it's great. Yeah, crazy times. Yeah, you could run onto the plane, anyway. So, like running through the rain, that moment where, like proposing in some spectacular way, or saying I'm sorry in some spectacular way. You if you look at almost any romance book or movie, you will find a grand gesture moment right before the end. There are some extremely famous movie versions of the grand gesture out there. Tom Cruise in Jerry Maguire, he did a grand gesture at the end where he runs to Reneeza Wigger, and they've been having a romance. It like it is that's a genre blending romance movie. It's great. And essentially, you know, they had their dark night of the soul, they had their breaking up, and then Tom Cruise runs in and she's in her living room. She she's a single mom, she has her friends around her, and he interrupts the entire conversation, like gets everybody to shut up, and he's like all Tom Cruise, teary-eyed, sweating, and he's like, I gotta tell you that I love you. And then it's the most amazing moment where she listens to his speech and he's like, Are you gonna accept me back? Like it's just this horrible pause, and then she says the famous line, You had me at hello. Like that is the rise and crescendo of a very well-done, grand gesture that leads to the last essential part of a romance, which is the happy ever after. Now, the important part of a happy ever after is not that you write out the rest of their lives and say that they died in each other's arms. Like, you don't have to do that. All you have to do is end your book on that happy note, on an optimistic note, and say it was good for now. Oftentimes, romances, especially very commercial ones, will have an epilogue where if they didn't ask to marry each other before, they asked to marry each other in the epilogue. That like that does that sells very well. People really like that. That's what people are looking at romances to do. However, if you do not want to do a happily ever after, just commit yourself to writing a drama with a beefy romance set plot. That that is my recommendation, because a lot of people will be angry at you and you will not get an agent if you try to sell it as a romance. There we go. It was great. I felt like ruin your life if you try to sell it as a romance. Take it from me. Did you wait? You didn't try to sell your book as romance though, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:45

I well in the beginning. Here's the thing. I've tried to sell it in so many genres now in the beginning. I don't even remember. I couldn't tell you. I was so like, what do I have to sell this as? A dark I do think I tried to sell it as a dark romance at one point. I really do. I did not know what my book was until someone told me what it was. Because there's so many different things. There's like action, there's thriller, there's romance, there's all the pieces, so I had no idea. I do have to say this. I think that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Because people should create what they want to create. Create the exact thing that you want to see on the page. If you want to create something that you feel confident will sell and you feel safe that it will sell, follow these guidelines in in these genres. Like we've only gone over a couple. But if you want to be an artiste, you know, if you want to create something that's meaningful to you and you're willing to take the risk, just make the mess. Make whatever you want to do. Have someone else that's inside the industry tell you what it is later. Like I if you're willing to take that risk, I think it's always a worthwhile risk for art. I agree. I'm not gonna give- I'm proud of you for doing it. I really like that you did it that way. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Although I did have to change some things once I got in. I'm not gonna say what because I don't want to give anything away, but I did have to compromise and change some things to make it more shelf-worthy. So I hate that. Shelf-worthy. What do you mean? No, no, no. That's that's me saying that. Like, like making it more like fit into a genre that we could cleanly sell it as.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

You know, sometimes I think about it this way. Like if if we're talking about how to craft something for specific genre rules, you can you can you can think of them as rules. You can also imagine it as like, okay, you're going out on a stage and there's an audience in front of you, and they need to be communicated with. And how do you communicate with them to make them laugh, to make them sigh, to make them recoil? And it's your job to manipulate the way that they react to you. And all these things are, you don't have to think of them as rules. You can think of them as tried and true methods to get the audience to react in the way you want them to react, which is to take out money and put it in your pocket.

unknown 35:01

I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

It's for them to feel something authentic and real. Yes, yes. I also wanted to say the difference between a thriller and a horror is a thriller is to cause angst and a horror is to cause dread. Those are like the big differences.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

I would I would really like to go into some of the rules for horror. If you great. Do you well no, I don't have them. Do you happen to have any?

SPEAKER_01 35:24

I don't really have rules for horror. I actually can't really think of rules for horror. It feels like more of like a free-for-all. It just has to have major like a monster or physical isolation or mental isolation. Um, it's a threat of safety, and then some type of gore, usually. And that's kind of like the main thing for horror, I think. And usually, even if it seems like it's a happy ending, there's usually always something at the end that's that shows like you think the killer's dead, and then the last scene shows like his hands moving or something, and you're like, No, he's still alive. You know, it's it it tricks you in the last minute. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Yeah. I mean, so I I see I see a pretty good rundown. Says there are four there are four aspects to it to a horror plot, like what what the uh it's a four-act arc. So it's basically an onset, which is normality. Like you have to establish what normal life is like, what goodness feels like before you disturb the dark. Yes, exactly. And then discovery, which is uh characters have to realize that there's something wrong. This is kind of generally like your characters have to go through a period of going, oh shit, there's a basement I have to go into, someone's following me. There's a weep and curse. Yeah, exactly. There's there's a mysterious book that I opened and I don't know why I did it. Oh and then there's a confirmation. So the threat has to become undeniable. It is it is real, it is pervasive, and it is constant. Like that is that is a that's the next step. And then the final one is the confrontation, there's an ultimate showdown between your protagonists and the threat, whatever it may be. It could be a monster, it could be something psychological, it could be something paranormal, you know, something like that. And then you get to decide whether they survive or they don't. So there's no guaranteed happily ever after in a horror. But I know that there are plenty of there's there's a lot of disagreement between the audience of what people like in an ending for a horror genre book or or movie.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

This is one, this is an example of where I like either. Same in romance. I like it to be happy or sad, but I like there to be an option where I don't know. I don't I like to be surprised. I don't like to know the ending, and I think that's why I don't like happily ever after requirements. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Yeah, because like I I fully get you. I'd like I I like and respect your drive for not wanting to always have always have to read a happily ever after ending or create a happily ever after ending. And I like that you you basically are rooting for the complexity of that. And I totally understand it. However, I think that there are certain genres that are essentially not about the complexity, they're about something else. Yeah, that's true. You know, and that's that I think that that is a fine way to be, is specifically because genres are they are stating what they are and they're not going to change what they are. You can go to another genre or a subgenre in order to get what you want. And and like breaking the rules of a genre can create a new one, but essentially, like it's it's just it's just a place to be thoroughly yourself in like and and get an unadulterated version of what you want, which is in in romance, it's a happily ever after. In horror, it's oftentimes like the more messed up it is, the better. And that includes the ending. Although I have to say, like, I I do prefer horror movies where, you know, the heroine or whoever gets away the end, because then I can go back home and feel like after after the movie, or I can go to bed and I could be like, okay, everything was fine in the end. It was just a horrible ride. You know? Everything isn't fucked up forever.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, I like both. It depends on the it depends on the movie and the show, you know. The I like I give the creator freedom to express themselves however they deem fit.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Yeah. I do, I do like in horror when some sort of like con deeper concept is addressed and it's a it's an unhappy ending. Like, I think here here's how I would break it apart. If it's a horror book or movie or show or whatever, where it's the horror in itself is a little bit rompy. Like you meet a monster in the woods and that's it. They're not actually making any sort of commentary on life. Not high kind of yeah, yeah. Like you meet the monster in the woods, I want to see you get out of those woods. Yeah. Like, in general, that's what I want. If the monster in the woods is yourself, or like, you know what I mean? Like, or i if it's if it's something that is a little bit more psychological in nature or commenting on society, then I'm like, everything's up for grabs. I want to see how you fulfill your metaphor. Same. I feel the exact same way. Yeah. I don't care if it's happy ending or not happy ending, as long as it's as long as like there's some sort of delicious irony or something. You know, like something for me to chew on after, yes, then I'm happy.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Exactly. I feel the exact same way. Yep. That's exactly how I would break it up too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Have you seen Obsession yet? No. I'm waiting for it to come on streaming. You miss the audience experience. People talk to themselves while watching that movie.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

And it's see, this is this is a uh unpopular opinion. I do not want to hear from my neighbor when I'm watching.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

I don't want to hear from my neighbor at all. I don't want to hear. It's just this particular movie, it's really fun because it's it's a very shared experience watching everything fall apart. Okay. I am so excited to see this. Because it's it's such a commentary. Everybody has experienced this kind of give and take in a in relationships they've had, in dating, where you're like, do they like me? Do they not like me? Is it fully reciprocated? Do I like them more than I should? Etc. And all of the little embarrassing kinds of moments that have probably happened to you and me and everyone we know, like, they just explode across the screen in this movie and in in humorous and very haunting ways. And I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Okay. I I'm I that is on my mission. Maybe I'll watch it this weekend in the hotel room at the writers' conference. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Yeah. Um I think that we covered at least three genres today. I'm certain that there are people out there that are like, cover anything other than romance next time. Do any other genre? And I'm like, okay. Actually, uh comment and tell us what you want us to cover. What are the genres that you're curious about writing? What are the genres that you want to blend together? Tell us. Write to us at our email. What's our email?

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Pagefrightcontact at gmail.com. That's pagefrightcontact at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Beautiful. Excellent. Or just comment, whatever you want to do. But let us know because we'll break it down for you and we'll talk about how it feels to actually, you know, try to accomplish these roles as writers, because not every rule feels good to write. You know? That's for sure. So let's throw some tomatoes. Oh, yeah. I got a good one because I talked about romance. Okay. Yeah. I actually I I tried to pull a U and you know, actually be on topic. You did. That's exciting. Yeah. Well, so mine was for uh The Duke and I, Bridgerton. Uh, because I wanted to look up like, okay, so what has been the most successful romance in uh the past few years? And it's like Bridgerton by Mile. So my and like I am not the biggest fan of Bridgerton, but I'm still reading this review. I'm not gonna say whether I agree with it or not, but I'm reading this review mostly to showcase like Bridgerton is really, really freaking successful, and it literally doesn't matter what what people think.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Well, also the books and the TV show are completely different, like plots and everything. So that's also hard.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Maybe maybe I'll like the book more. I don't know. Uh but uh this person didn't. They said I finished it, but wish I hadn't started it. I wanted to like this book. I love period dramas, and I have heard of the Netflix adaptations, and I was hoping for a good series, both books and videos to enjoy. After forcing myself to the end of this dreary nonsense, I can only think of a couple of other books I closed with more relief. Let's start with the dialogue between the protagonists. It's completely impossible. Who talks like that? An endless volleyball game of words and witticisms that aren't quite clever. Historical inaccuracies? They are all fingernails on a chalkboard. Things that people would say or would never say, mannerisms, social laws, even fashion, this book was loaded with them. The characters are two-dimensional. They creak. It was like watching a play done with paper dolls beyond predictable. So why two stars instead of one since I dislike the book that much? I thought about one star. I did. But perhaps the whole series is not to be judged on the weaknesses of one book. There may be development that does not yet appear in the first book, but someone else will have to make that call. I kind of like this reviewer. But like again, write what you want to write. Some people are going to dislike it. Some people are going to love it. And clearly, tons of people had fun reading the series and watching it. So I don't know, choose the type of writer you want to be.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

I love that. So I did Stephen King's book on writing because this was kind of like an advice. This was kind of like an advice episode. So I was like, what if what should we look at a review on Stephen King on his advice on writing? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

This this is a one-star review of that? That's so funny. Stephen King, you suck. Okay, go on. The worst advice giver in the world. Yeah, you don't know how to write a book.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Okay, I want to hear it. So I chose this review because this was a common sentiment. I just thought the way this person expressed this sentiment was the funniest. So, one star review. Have you ever gone online in search of a straightforward instructional video only to accidentally stumble upon a clip of a guy sucking his own dick? This is the literary equivalent.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

No.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

No.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

No. That's really funny. Because that book has been recommended to me so many times.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

There's good advice in it. I I haven't read it, but I've like looked at like, you know, the bit basic gist of it. And I'm certain that there's good advice in it. My God, vicious. It seems like that was a common sentiment in the one-star area. The section was that he seemed to be a little bit more. There's a lot of talk about that certain act. Not that act, just that was a funny way of describing it. That he seemed to be like getting off on his own power or something. Like like pompous. I guess that was like the one star sentiment.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

But I mean, listen, if I'm side-eyeing some of these reviewers.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

If I'm making hundreds of million dollars on my books, I'm gonna be like here are here's my advice. Kiss the ring.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

Uh yeah, if if I if I'm the horror writing author of the century, which everyone was calling him for decades, like I mean, no one's saying he's a good film director. He's not writing any books on film directing. He made he made a crazy movie about trucks coming to life. It was it wasn't very good. He was high on cocaine the whole time. That's what I heard. Anyway, um, but like people are saying he's a good writer, so maybe you should allow him to be a little pompous.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. So next week we have a very special guest, someone that I have been admiring for a long time. I even gave her book five stars before I even knew she was coming on this podcast. And it's one of my favorite horror books, How to Fake a Haunting by Krista Carmen. She's coming on. You met last year, right? Yep. And she's a fabulous writer, masterful at the comedy and horror, which is my favorite, as we all know. And she's coming on next week, and I cannot wait to pick her brain. Uh, I'm gonna try not to commandeer the episode and ask her all the questions. I'm gonna try and let you have a turn too, Lisa.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

But yeah, uh, I can't wait. Um I can't wait to delve into her book and come up with a few questions of my own. Yep. So we will see you next week on PageFright. Yes, next week. Like and subscribe.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Bye. Bye. You just listened to Page Fright. Don't forget to like and subscribe and write to us at pagefrightcontact at gmail.com.