Page Fright
Hosted by authors Sydney Kain (Our Love Language is Murder: coming Feb 2027), and Liza Petrov (Pre-Query). PAGE FRIGHT follows the journey of Sydney and Liza as they find their place in the literary world. Each week they offer a unique take on the ins and outs of the publishing industry, discuss craft and the vulnerability it takes to be a writer, and they answer questions from fans. New episodes every Tuesday.
Page Fright
What Agents Are Looking For Right Now
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Go behind the scenes of a publishing conference, and learn the kind of industry advice agents are actually giving writers right now. From contracts and the business side of publishing to how you can query a book that doesn't fit neatly on the genre shelf, Sydney and Liza unpack the insights that can help authors better understand what it takes to build a career in a crowded market.
This kind of makes me feel like the shackles have been unchained. Because I'm like a rule breaker. I can write this genre and ha ri literally write whatever I want. It just matters how I market it. Because that's just what the editors or agents want to know is okay, what are you selling this to me as? And then how can we zhuzh it up with, okay, this is a horror, but it's also romantic. We are back. Yes. We're back from a wonderful weekend together. You're you're back. You're you're back home.
SPEAKER_05I stayed.
SPEAKER_03I stayed in paradise.
SPEAKER_05Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes. It felt like a little honeymoon for us because we just had our we just had our anniversary of our sixth month, and then we met up and we rented a cabana. We watched the World Cup. We ordered food.
SPEAKER_05If you follow us on Instagram and you follow our stories, you would have seen us documenting the entire weekend, us in the cabana at this pool. It was great. Yeah. Well, what did we do? We shoot a bird away from our food for like three hours. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03It was so aggressive. I have never seen a bird be so aggressive. It kept coming up and trying to take food right off of our plate, even though we're sitting right there. And I had to bring out my demon voice to get it away. I was like, shoot, get out of here. Yes, you did.
SPEAKER_05You proved to me that you are a true horror author when you interacted with that bird. Anyway, we also posted pictures of our outfits going to this convention, which was possibly the girliest thing I've ever done. And like Sydney was berating me all day, being like, send me your picture. Make sure that you show up your outfit for today. And I was like, I don't do that. But then I did. And then you had the most awesome outfit ever.
SPEAKER_03You had like cowboy boots on and jeans. Dress. And you had a better outfit than me.
SPEAKER_05When I'm not on this podcast, I I dress wild. I try to be a little bit more business-y. I I guess not today, but like I try to be a little bit more, you know, demure on the on the podcast. But in real life, I'm a party girl, you know. Oh, I'm athleisure to the max. You're athleisure. I think athleisure is one of the greatest fashion concepts ever invented. I know Europe hates it. You're not allowed to wear workout clothes out on the street. People will point and laugh. But uh in America, here, it's great.
SPEAKER_03You get to wear your things. Yes. Yoga pants and a tank top, nothing better than that.
SPEAKER_05And some of it's pretty chic. Some of it's uh pretty great. I I like this new trend with the high socks, the ankle socks, with some some nice fat sneakers. Like it looks dope.
SPEAKER_03Oh yes. I found out that I was a loser because I had on the ankle socks and I have a gen, what is it? Gen Zure sister. Gen Z what? Oh yeah. Okay. My Gen Z sister was like, you are such a loser, millennial, with your socks like that around your ankles. So of course Oh, oh, like low ankle.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, there's the millennial low ankle and then the Gen Z high sock. Yeah, I know. So I had to go buy some high socks. You had to, she made you.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. Yeah. I couldn't go around looking like a millennial loser.
SPEAKER_05So of course. Apparently, we're we're old or whatever. I don't know. I don't know. Are we a writing podcast or what? Let's let's let's talk about this convention. Learned so much. It was really fun. I think both of us stayed on the business side of things, learning about the trends of the publishing industry right now. I I learned about social media, contracts, how to actually evaluate uh the contract that you get. It was somehow the most boring and enticing like hour that I've been a part of in recent weeks. I I like I it was amazing. My mind kept on wandering, but I was riveted to get back. I was just like, no, I have to get back. And like we're on clause 24.
SPEAKER_03Let's go. So yeah, it was pretty cool. I felt like that in every because when when Lisa says we went to the business side, so usually when you go to these conferences, they have the business side lectures you can go to, and then they have the craft lectures you can go to. And this time we avoided the craft ones. We went more to the business side to help us kind of further along in our careers. Yeah. Yes. I found myself still, even on the business side, being inspired. So I kept fading out and like drifting off into my book and coming up with like the midpoint. In fact, at one point, you you said to me, You mentioned you commented on something that was going on in the lecture, and I was all, oh sorry, I was not paying attention. I was in my book, I was solving the midpoint.
SPEAKER_05Oh, you told me afterwards, and I was just like, be here. But yeah, no, I I was inspired from my book, uh, the entire conference. I met so many people uh that are kind of like writing in in my I met people who were writing stories that aren't like mine, but I also met some more people that were writing historical fiction. I was I was just so inspired by their works that it like just the entire weekend, I was I was writing out notes on my phone like for the next book I want to write, for other book ideas that I want to have, and also for the podcast. Like I like there were a lot of show concepts that kind of occurred to both of us. I think the first breakout session, both of us were like coming up with ideas for upcoming podcasts, just like rapid fire. It was really fun.
SPEAKER_03And what I love too about writers is that we're all so weird and awkward, but so friendly. I feel like we're all empaths. So even at the cocktail hour, you just go up and talk to people and they're so welcoming. Yes. So for those of you that are ever nervous to go to a conference because you don't know anyone or you're afraid to feel be welcomed, it's such a welcoming environment. You walk in, you say hello to anyone, and they'll immediately be like, Oh, tell me about yourself. What are you writing? Sit with me. It's so, so friendly. Yes, and I everyone's nervous.
SPEAKER_05I everyone's nervous. I would recommend, I completely agree. I would recommend that if you are a writer and you are like in your own in your own head too much, worried to talk about your book with other people, all that kind of stuff, pick a conference. Maybe in your genre, maybe not, but like go talk to them because not only is everyone nervous and that kind of helps you out, but also it like everyone has an automatic thing to share about themselves that is what you have to share about yourself. You can talk about your projects. You you you don't have to worry about coming up with something to talk about with someone new. You can walk up to them and say, Hey, are you here with a project? Are you are you writing something right now? What do you what do you like to write? What do you like to read? Yeah, this is my project. And you can make a lot of really good friends in the process.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and everyone is all varying stages of writing. We have newbie newbie, never written a book, just started writing all the way up to been self-publishing for years. And you never feel inadequate. It's always if if you're not as advanced or have as much experience as someone else, they'll kind of take you under their wing and mentor you and you can ask them all sorts of questions. So it there's never a feeling that you don't belong or that you don't fit in. I would agree. Yeah. Which is the chronic thing we all feel is like, am I even a writer?
SPEAKER_05Should I be here? Yes. I mean, that's what we all put on ourselves and what actually most of the world does not put on us. You think that they're thinking that, but really they're more worried about themselves than they are worried about you. And I mean, that applies also, that kind of friendly, friendliness, that openness, kindness uh applies to the panel participants as well. A lot of them are really well-known writers, uh, I or at this conference, a lot of them are well-known writers, a lot of pe a lot of them are um, well, there were a lot of agents who were doing panels as well. And everyone was so open and friendly and kind of more in your like situation than you realize. Like everybody is a professional trying to climb up their own ladder. Like the agents are also hired by an agency, they're not the gods, you know what I mean? A lot of them, a lot of them are young professionals uh who are trying to build a list for themselves, and they they have their own worries and problems. Actually, this was one of the most interesting things that we went to. The uh fellowships, grants, and retreats uh breakout was fantastic. I want to do a whole episode on this, which is basically these are programs and grants that you can apply to pitching your work in order to get funding for you to take some time and concentrate on writing it. Or um it's a it's a place where you can go with other like-minded artists, a retreat uh in order to complete your work, or a full-on fellowship where there is really hands-on help from dedicated staff and and m academics, I guess, who can talk to you about uh your writing, the art of writing, and developing your work. But this was so interesting that they that they showed us the session at the conference because it was like the polar opposite. The strategy that you have to use to use these fellow to get these fellowships for treats or grants is the exact opposite of what you have to do to get an agent. Like the agent is like, where do I put your book on a bookshelf? Tell me the genre, tell tell me why it's sellable, tell me why people want to read your book. And these fellowships are all like, no, no, no, no, no. What's the heart of your project? Why are you writing it? Is it gonna change the world? Why does the world need your art? And it's like, like, don't even tell me the genre. Like, bury the genre. Like, it doesn't have to be fun at all. Like, it doesn't have to be entertaining, it just has to be deep. And I was like, this is hilarious and great. I love it.
SPEAKER_03For me, I was stuck the whole time, like, wait a second, hold the phone. You're telling me that there are programs that will fund me to come and literally do nothing but write. They will wheel out my lunch and breakfast and dinner to me. They will pay me up to $30,000 to help me not work. Yeah. Which I've already not do that, but other writers not work and just write full time. But my mind was just blown that whole time.
SPEAKER_05I know. And it's like it and they do all that as long as you convince them that your work is meaningful. You know, it's just okay, like everything that I want as a writer. Like, like I like being entertaining, I like thinking about because we've talked about this in the past, where when you have to write more commercial, or your publisher's like, Can you write something a little bit more accessible? And you're like, Okay, you know, there's there's a beautiful craft to this. We did a whole segment on that, but there's also this yearning where you're like, I want to think deeply on a topic. I I want to uh think about the themes and the symbolisms and the metaphors. I want to draw those out and really sit with them and I want them to matter. And, you know, that's a place where people actually pay attention and will reward you for thinking that way and investing in those parts of your manuscript.
SPEAKER_03And this is a total sidetrack, but you talking about that made me think of one of our last guests, Heather Francis. She made it on the USA Today bestsellers list.
SPEAKER_05Oh my God. Yes. Uh, when you told me that, I I just jumped up from my chair and I like did a little dance. I was I was so excited for her. And you know what? She's not the only author that has achieved great things since being on our podcast. I think it's our podcast that actually makes things happen.
SPEAKER_03That's so true. Because our other author, Erica Vipond, she has a signing in the Barnes and Noble in Rockwell, Texas next weekend. So, I mean, I guess it just shows you you come on page right and the world opens up for you. Exactly.
SPEAKER_05Like you're self-published, you can get yourself into Barnes and Noble. You're traditionally published, you get yourself on the USA Today bestsellers list. Like they're, I don't know. Reach for the stars, guys.
SPEAKER_03We have some pretty big authors.
SPEAKER_05Reach out to us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we actually have some pretty big authors coming on our show in the next couple weeks that I cannot wait to share with you.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I really want to pick their brains. Uh, they have so much wisdom to share. I'm really excited. Well, okay, so do we have a little bit more time to discuss the conference? Because we really did do a lot of things. Like, I have some complaining to do. I mean, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_03Let's hear some complaining.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so I went to a session on social media for authors. And this is like I no shade at the person who who led it. She led it with her heart, but her heart was not helpful to me. So I feel like that's like the biggest shade you can give. Your heart, the truth of your heart is terrible. The funny thing is, like, I completely agree with her. So she said at the very beginning that this whole session was just her opinion. And I was like, okay, cool. And her I agree with her opinion, which is social media, like I've said it on this show. Like, once you once you really find your voice as an author, social media, YouTube videos, all all of the helpful clips or whatever, like, I don't know. I don't like them. I don't think that they're very helpful. And I don't particularly like social media. Like she made me laugh at the beginning where she was saying that she thinks social media is best for like, I don't know, posting, posting about your day, the food you ate, the babies you had, and you know, like just for your family and your friends to keep up with you. Like it's original purpose. And now it's about pushing yourself, it's about pushing a dream, pushing a product, pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing something. And she basically was like, I don't actually think it's that helpful for authors or for book sales or anything like that. So she made a big claim, but she did. And obviously she knows that TikTok is majorly pushing romance books and pushing them well. And romanticy too. Yeah. Well, I'm I'm kind of coupling romanticy into romance books. Just like a whole umbrella. And it it it's doing it well, and you know, there are other like really genre e-books that like have their niche markets on on book talk and and all that kind of stuff. But when it comes down to whether an author her claim was if you are an author who has a big following on Instagram or TikTok or Facebook or whatever, YouTube, before you sell your book, the publishing industry has basically kind of caught on to followers that does not translate to book sales. And they she she actually said that the more interaction you have on platforms like Substack, where you're publishing, you're putting out written work continuously and you have engagement. So like you're paying more paying more attention to raw views and your your interaction with people than your followers in general on these social media platforms. And I was like, okay, sure, great, that's good to know, but how do I get more views? And she never answered that question. She just kind of gave a general disdain for social media, which I agree with, and a, you know, uh possibly a hard truth about the publishing industry, where they're like, okay, like we're not necessarily gonna continue signing people just because they have a large following. Uh we're gonna be looking more critically at their viewer numbers and how many people actually literally care about what they say. Like they might even look at like uh the stats for how many seconds people stayed around for your reel, how many slides in your carousel did they swipe through or whatever before signing you. And that to me, I'm like, okay, that that might be true, but I still need practical insight and instruction on how to advertise advertise myself as an author, get people hooked into a book that I I can't reveal things about, you know? Like it it feels like a huge problem, this riddle that I need to solve. And I haven't actually solved it yet. I haven't figured it out. And I know that you've been working hard to like promote yourself and you're about to go into those debut trenches and like okay, your publisher is gonna ask you to do these things to market yourself. Do you have any? I mean, can you can you give me a personal breakout session someday? Maybe not right now, but that was like that was the most annoying thing that happened at the conference.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think not to go I I hear what you're saying, and I think not to go too deep into it, not to go into a full uh social media session. Uh I also disagree with her. I think that social media, I mean, I agree that sometimes followers, like, oh, I have 5,000 followers. They may not be engaged followers, and they might not buy your book. Sure, that's fine. But I was just in a meeting with film agents that told me we want you to have a lot of followers like Anna Wong, who has like 1.2 million followers, or Alex Astor, or Victoria Aviar.
SPEAKER_05Want you to do that.
SPEAKER_03So they do care. They do still look, they just care more about the engagement. And in terms of like how to market yourself, I mean, yeah, I've been doing it for years and I'm still trying to figure it out. Uh, I think it is hard with what you're saying. It'll be easier for me as a debut because the publisher will be telling me what they want to post, like do a cover reveal, talk about tropes, talk about the book broadly without getting into specifics. But when you're in a having a work in progress progress like what you have, that was harder for me. So I kind of tapped more into my journey as a writer, like trying to work through chapter one. This is what it looks like when I'm plotting, you know, try and do more of like relatable day-to-day struggles as a writer and fun moments. Because I think social media also is very fake. And it's it's nice for people to see the genuine struggles that you're going through, like a real person, like I'm a real person with real issues and wins and losses, and they want to see that. So I think finding a way to connect with people, and that's probably why she didn't give advice, because there's really no advice on how to do it. You just have to figure out you're giving advice. That's true.
SPEAKER_05You're you're doing a really good job right now. Like anybody out there who is has a work in progress, listen up to what Sydney just said because that's a great place to start. I haven't done it yet. I just have a personal Instagram. Uh, it's just pictures of my cat. But maybe soon I'll I'll start posting about my trials and tribulations as an author. With, you know, I'll have a nice carousel just talking about my stuff over pictures of, I don't know, a mug of coffee.
SPEAKER_03Me looking out a window. Well, I think people could really relate to you too about your struggle with do I cut words to fit what an agent wants. I cut 1,500 words yesterday.
SPEAKER_05I'm so proud of myself. I am going to cut way more today. I can't wait.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah. Don't don't cut it.
SPEAKER_05Call me the butcher. Yeah. No. Soul be gone. I'm roofless after this conference, anyway. So, okay. It has been 24 minutes. Let's get into the meat and potatoes of our episode.
SPEAKER_03What are we talking about today? We are talking about genre blending, which I know we've talked about a bunch of times, but this is really such a big topic.
SPEAKER_05We were about session.
SPEAKER_03It was so great. Who who led the session? You are excited to see this. It was Elizabeth Copps, who used to be at the Cops Literary Agency, but now I guess she's Okay. It's Elizabeth Copps at the Cops Literary Agency, but I guess now she's merged with another agency called Confluence Literary Agency. Oh, okay. Awesome.
SPEAKER_05She's she said all that and it went in one ear and out the other. I completely missed it. I'm so happy I know that now.
SPEAKER_03Well, you probably didn't know that I know that because I'm I was a querying author and she's a big literary agent. So I knew who she was.
SPEAKER_05Turn you down. Did you query her?
SPEAKER_03Yes, she did. She did turn me down. Wait, wait.
SPEAKER_05So someone on your little list.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I was looking at I told my husband, I said, there were a lot of people here that are on my list, and he was all when you say that, because he's heard me say that on here, he's heard me say it, and he he, you know, I say a lot of things for effect, and he was like, Do you do you actually have a list or are you just saying that? And I was like, So I pulled up my laptop and opened it up with all these names.
SPEAKER_05Your your husband is a very patient and trusting man. He actually don't pay attention to your name at the bottom. Okay, that that's there by accident. Vindictive. Anyway, I hope I hope when he listens to this episode, he gets a good laugh from that part. Yeah. Because he listens to your episodes. He's so sweet. I know. I got to meet him for the first time this past weekend. So that was really fun.
SPEAKER_03Well, it was really funny when you talk about parasocial relationships. He felt like he already knew you and he got to know you through our podcast. And then when he saw us hanging out, he said, I feel like I'm watching a live podcast between the two of you because your dynamic is exactly the same.
SPEAKER_05Okay, this is gonna make you laugh, but I'm just gonna say it. He was also a very well-dressed man. I just want you to know.
SPEAKER_03He when he hears this, when he hears this, he's gonna be so happy because he's been working on it. Anyway, okay, so genre blending. Let's go. Turns out that even though agents have a hard time selling genre blending books, it is in fact a very popular thing to do. A lot of editors want it. It's something that sells mind-blowing.
SPEAKER_05If if you got a little too creative within your genre, it's actually something that is right now a very good thing for your pitch. It used to be like death now, but now like people want it. And she went over this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and so the trick is is how do you pitch your genre blending story? Because what you do. Not want to do, which is what I saw a lot of authors do this past weekend, is you don't want to say, Well, it's a romance fantasy with some magical realism and some thriller points and some horror. Because then agents are going to be like, So what is it? What you want to do is pitch it correctly by saying, This is a thriller with strong romantic subplot. Or this is a fantasy with a horror theme. Yes. And you want to pitch it as where it goes on the shelf, and then here are some additional aspects of it that make it more three-dimensional, make it more complex, make it more intriguing, that has that has like crossover appeal to readers from other genres.
SPEAKER_05Yes, exactly. And and you might be surprised, I once once you're in that pitch phase, really like do some research to see whether a blend of the genres that are already in your work already has an industry name. Like romantic, for example. Romance and fantasy, because there have been such big hits and people have blended the names together already, it has a spot. Like, and you might not know that yet for your work, and there might be something out there waiting for you. Uh, she actually listed a bunch of specific genres that are already kind of blending together. Like, okay, so she there's a whole section of what agents are looking for right now. I remember that. I wrote it down. Uh, do you mind if I go list some of them off? Go for it. Chime in if you have any thoughts. So the first one that she said, she could not stop talking about horror. I know. So just to say, if you're writing a horror right now, feel great. It is the hottest genre in 2026. Tons of agents want it. It's kind of crazy. So if you're writing one right now, you locked out. Anyway, so the first uh one that you put on the list was horror with folklore roots. People, people are going crazy for that. Another one was atmospheric, voice-driven suspense, which I thought was interesting. Speculative fiction with marginalized voices, cozy fantasy or dark grounded fantasy. That was one of the most interesting ones for me. Cozy fantasy. She kind of categorized it as like low-stakes, kind of coffee shop, small village kind of dramas that are set in a fantasy setting. So it's kind of like what you would think of for, you know, cozy mysteries, but applied, but you have like dwarves in it. Dwarves and wizards, like elves. The fairies keep stealing my pumpkin pies, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I know. Which is kind of funny. Uh, but also I was like, oh, like I started thinking, you know, it definitely comes from our generation and younger with fan fiction out there and DD, because so many people play, play these fantasy-driven games and write stories about already existing plots, yeah. Like animes that have fantastical elements to them, books, fantasy books, but there's a whole art of there's a subgenre in fan fiction that is basically you take the characters you know, you take all of their dynamics, and then you supplant them into a new world of your own. It's called alternate universe or AU. And like I'm not surprised that that's hitting traditional publishing now. That makes sense. You have a lot of people hitting their 30s, perfecting their writing craft, but pulling themselves out of fan fiction and inserting themselves into this new fantasy setting. And it's it's no longer epic. It's smaller stakes and people people are having a lot of fun with that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that makes sense about cozy horror. That was one of the ones she mentioned. And I was like, Cozy horror? What kind of story is that? But then I, you know, I'm thinking of like Grimm's fairy tales. I remember watching that as a kid, and it is kind of horror-ish, but it's so cozy.
SPEAKER_05I feel like haunted house horror is also kind of cozy. Like you I guess it depends on the type. It does, but like I think the second you get a little Englishy, you know, like the second you go to England, it gets cozy. That's true.
SPEAKER_03There's a demon coming after me, but everyone has a charming accent. And I'm getting tea in the afternoon.
SPEAKER_05I mean, some sort of aristocratic two-week getaway party at some mansion, then it happens to be haunted. Oh my god. You know? Take me on that vacation. Yeah, that's actually where you want to go. That's where you want to write your next book. I remember you told me. Yes. Okay, so uh the next one is romance that includes another genre element, like fantasy, romantic, or horror, or mystery. So they're they're really liking this kind of space of romance where you definitely get your happily ever after, and you layer on top of it some sort of plot that is more intense than you would uh regularly get in romance. Like a lot of the times in romance books, if you have a a B plot, it's kind of like half-assed. Mm-hmm. That's my main issue with it. Yeah. And I think that a lot of writers are kind of getting sick of that and decide or readers who turn to writers, turn into writers, are getting sick of that and basically going, I want to beef up that that B plot because they feel like it helps the romance. And I think agents are agreeing with that. I think readers are agreeing with that. People are responding to it. Uh, another one was upmarket fiction that blends commercial accessibility with literary depth. I mean, I think that we've seen some recent big successes with that. I would say Emily Henry like fully, fully falls into that category where you have an upmarket plot, but you incorporate some, you know, real deep writing about, you know, identity needs to be yeah, identity, modern humanity. Exactly. Uh yeah, question, big questions about life that a lot of readers are really responding to. Uh, another one is queer horror, weird girl fiction. She had something to say about that that was really funny. She was like, I love a weird girl. Unhinged female protagonists. I have an unhinged female protagonist. Me as well. Yes. Uh everybody likes that. Let's go, crazy girls. Uh, literary thrillers with inventive structure and emotional depth. So I think that that's kind of the mirror image of the upmarket fiction with literary depth. It's kind of like it's like you have a literary book that's a that's like higher concept and all this kind of stuff, but they're saying, hey, can we make literature accessible? Like, let's kill somebody. Yeah, exactly. Up the stakes stakes, make it less boring, and you know, make your writing more relatable to the regular reader, and we're gonna be happy. And it's like I bet there are a lot of literary writers, writers being like, I'm gonna do that. But I'm excited. I'm excited about that. Uh, I only have two more. One is Gothic Fiction and Gothic Horror. That's making a huge, huge, I guess, comeback. I don't know. Uh, and then high concept book club fiction with emotional punch, which was really fun. Anyway, th that's that is what agents are looking for right at this very morning, uh, right at this very moment, according to what's her name? Elizabeth Copps.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I just want to say too, when you're thinking about signing a contract, when you have a book deal, is to always pay attention to your option clause. So let's say you are someone that does a lot of genre blending. And so you sell a thriller, for example, that has a very strong romantic subplot, you want to make sure that you ask your editor in the meeting before they acquire your book, like, do you plan on buying romance books from me or horror books from me? And if they say no, then you ask for them to leave that out of your option clause. Because if you sell your books to them and they what they say they have first look and first right to see any of your fiction moving forward, then that means you cannot sell another book until that book that they've bought sells, which could be two years down the line, which means that you won't sell anything for two years until they've had a chance to look at it, which usually it says in your contract, they don't have to look at it until your book comes out. So you do you need to be careful about how you lock yourself down and make sure you know what directions you might go genre-wise and if that publisher will likely sell them or not.
SPEAKER_05Sydney, can you be my lawyer? I think I need to hire you because wow. I did not know that about contracts. And I mean, I feel like I'm gonna save this and just like when eventually down the road, and I'm in my dream scenario with the publisher with the publisher, I am going to look back to that video being like, is this in the contract?
SPEAKER_03Did I do this? You're gonna have a bunch of save videos of my like contract advice.
SPEAKER_05So uh were you aware of this beforehand, uh, before you sign your contract, or uh did you learn it the hard way?
SPEAKER_03No, I did not have to learn it the hard way, actually, because I have I felt like I was asking an evil question. No, you tried to get me, but alas, you did not. No, my agent is amazing. So she called me on the phone and she knows how I can get really anxious. So she said, Call me back when you have a computer next to you. So she wouldn't even talk to me until I had a computer.
SPEAKER_05Smart woman.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and then she said, Okay, before we talk, pull up your contract and we're gonna go through this line by line. And she we went through the first contract and she explained to me what everything meant, what uh like like separately and jointed uh accounted books and what my option clause was and when I'll get paid and all sorts of things. And she just said to me, Okay, I'm gonna go back and ask for this and this and this and this and this. And I just sat back and learned and she handled it all. I didn't have to be on top of it at all. Thank goodness, because I did not know anything.
SPEAKER_05My goodness. So you have you are a treasure trove of advice on contracts then.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because she's really, really taught me a lot of things.
SPEAKER_05Excellent about so listeners, stay tuned for future episodes when Sydney just drops wisdom on you because it'll come out of nowhere. It'll come fast.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Next up will be about foreign rights, okay? So we will have to touch on that next step.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and and it could happen at any place in the episode. So stick around from beginning to end. No skipping, okay? Yeah. Listen to literally everything we have to say, or else you'll miss it. Anyway, okay. What else did this woman say? Uh, I wrote down so many notes. I thought it was like really, really interesting. You started off talking about like how to pitch your genre or your genre blend.
SPEAKER_03What I think is fun about genre blending is it kind of takes the shackles off your ankles, or I guess off your wrist because you're typing. Because I had it in my head. You know, I get so frustrated about rules. And you do.
SPEAKER_05I was just thinking about shackles. You mentioned it, like I was like, but they can be on your ankles. Anyway, go on.
SPEAKER_03So I I get so frustrated about rules, and this kind of makes me feel like the shackles have been unchained. Because I'm like, okay, I can write this genre and have literally write whatever I want. It just matters how I market it. Because that's just what the editors or agents want to know is okay, what are you selling this to me as? And then how can we zhuzh it up with, okay, this is a horror, but it's also romantic, you know, it's ghosts kissing, you know. So it's like things like that.
SPEAKER_05And you think about it, it like the way that you want to pitch it is basically, hey, I have this audience, they're locked in, but I also have this audience, and they're gonna be drawn into this too. And these two genres have they combine, they have chemistry together. So these two audiences aren't gonna hate each other. They're gonna love each other. It's gonna be great. And that's what the agent, that's what the publishing house wants to hear. They want to hear audience growth and they want to hear like audience mixing.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And I think the the best, the biggest mistake I saw this weekend at the conference was that people did not have their pitch down. And what you really need is a one-line hook. They don't want to hear this, it's a theme of loss. There's a it's about grief, it's about growth. No, they don't want to hear that. They want to hear what is your hook? What is the plot of your book? What is this about? So for example, in mine, yes, it's about divorce and marriage and love and loss, and you know, there's there's fertility in it. No, this book is about a couple that is secretly planning to kill each other. That's your hook. Yes, and then exactly. They say, Oh, tell me more. And you can say it's a thriller with a romantic subplot that has a lot of humor and dark comedy in it, you know, and then you start building on it from there. Because when they have the hook, it grounds them, it centers them. They know, okay, I know where to sell this. I they're already thinking of editors, and now they're thinking, okay, now how can I make this special to the editor? I'll pitch it to you. How can I hook them with the added elements that you have? Exactly. Exactly. A lot of times.
SPEAKER_05Just just to add in. So you're saying basically, hook placement. And then, like, for historical fiction writers, for people that are more literary, they're like, my book's all theme, you know, put it at the end. And I actually have a nice little trick that I learned from the first conference. You inspired me because this is basically like you do want, you want your hook first, and then you want your placement. And placement meaning like, where's it on the bookshelf? And like, if you start with those two things, your pitch is a banger. Like, that's it. That's it, that's that's the main thing to get an agent to perk up their ears and make them more amenable to all the other things that you want to say about your book.
SPEAKER_03I would say that if you are getting rejected over and over again by agents, it is because your hook is not locked down. They are not seeing it, they're not figuring out how to sell it. You need to come in with a strong, one-line hook. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And the strength, the strength shows it to them because they need they they don't have enough time to imagine it up for you. That's one of the biggest things. Like when your hook is strong, as you're saying, that's making it clear to them. They don't have to do any work to then have the imagination that they're supposed to have on like where to sell it and all this kind of stuff. You need to do that work for them before you have an agent. Exactly. Yeah. Well, so with uh with any readers that are freaking out, being like, My uh my book is all themed, but the the way that I got around that in mind, I actually took a cue from one of the other writers uh uh on a panel two years ago. Because basically what he would do is followed exactly your formula. He was like, a hook, a placement, and then the the third section was basically he listed off like all of the juiciest perks of the plot. Like he he basically was just like, my book has you know, murder, affairs, hard drinking in it, gunfights, like this book has this, this, this, this, and this, these super fun things, but at its core, it's about the themes and and like what is that human connection? What is that character growth? So he buries the themes in his p in his pitch, and that that's the right place for them to be. Don't put them at the top if you're writing something literary or you know, upmarket with depth or literary with upmarket appeal. Like, if you're in that zone, put it at the end and have it be a strong wave of you know, literary. Like, put it there and follow Sunny's advice about the beginning. So not that. I got really inspired for all the visual, for all the non-visual watchers, my hands were going everywhere. That's like waving around like a little bit.
SPEAKER_03That's when you're your most passionate, is when your hands are waving.
SPEAKER_05You know, in seventh grade, we did a model UM and I gave a presentation, and I got like really passionate about my presentation. It was about human rights or whatever. And at the end, like I remember like blushing, like I felt red in the face. And then I sat down and I was like, I really, I really overdid it. And the whole room was silent. And then her name was Miss Clark. And she she said, Well, um, I'm gonna teach you guys a word. It's called gesticulation. And Elizabeth just did a great job. It's when you move your hands with passion. And I was like, anyway, that's how I learned what gesticulation.
SPEAKER_03That is epic. That's what an amazing story. So you've never changed. You're still you.
SPEAKER_05I'm very much me, unfortunately. No, you're the best. All the seventh graders listening out there, you'll never change. Don't worry, it never gets less awkward. I'm kidding, life gets better. Uh, okay, so I just had a couple more things. Um, so she had some really good advice for when your genre is not having a moment. Okay. And I just wanted to list off a few of these. I think that this was fantastic. It was basically like your genre's not doing well, agents aren't really picking it up, but how do you st how do you work with that? And here it is. Okay, so one was reframe the genre connection. Position your book as quote unquote for readers who loved X. Use the reader identity, not the shelf label. So for that section, when you're saying the type of book it is, that's when you're using that quote for readers who loved your comp title. And that can kind of save you from having to put up that unpopular red flag for the agent where they're gonna go, ooh, I don't want to do that. The next one is emphasize timely themes. What is your book actually about at its core? Lead with that universal theme, not the genre mechanics. So that is basically like if your genre is really in the down and outs and like you're you really don't want to mention it, then get rid of the placement section, have your strong hook, like Sydney said, and then push up the relatability. What are those themes? And really that's they're gonna have to hook that agent. You have to work to make that agent believe in your core themes. Uh, just a couple more. Create urgency with uniqueness. I thought this was awesome. But if your book is the only one doing what it that's a selling point in itself, but lean into the gap. And I feel like that's something that you did, Sydney. But like I mean, I'm so serious. Like you have a you have a fun and relatable plot that is original. You leaned into the thriller kind of dark romance gap that like I don't know many people have written the book that you wrote. Like, I don't know if like that book already like truly exists. I think it's really unique, and I liked how when you talked about it, you weren't afraid of saying exactly what it was. Like you emphasized its uniqueness. And I think that that's what got you your agent, what got you your deal. And now you're coming out in 2027, and I don't know. I think you pitched it right. And then find adjacent genre comps. So comp to books that already crossed over, show agents there's a precedent for this crossover working. So basically, this is I think this is more advice for people that did a genre blend, which is like truly unconventional, and you gotta like you gotta find something out there that is at least similar to show some sort of track record that I don't know. She said that, but I believe or I don't have much more to say on that one. And then just two more. I promise, just two more. Because I wrote down all of her slides because I thought they were so good. Target agents with a broader taste, research agents with wide genre lists, the generalists out there will be enthusiastic about your specific book. So, like, just disregard like even if an agent is big, disregard like if they don't have a broad list, they're probably not gonna be interested in your weird project. But there are agents who will be, and I guarantee you that some of them are very talented individuals who will successfully sell your work. And then the final one is package as a breakout opportunity, frame it for the agent as this is what will define the next wave. Support with your comp argument. And I thought that that was really interesting, so just go on with confidence, I guess.
SPEAKER_02You know?
SPEAKER_05That was a great, great overview. It was long, I'm sorry. But I don't know, she was just so full of great advice. She was. I I learned so much from her, actually. Yeah, smart lady. People should look her up, try to get her as your agent. Anyway, are you ready to throw some tomatoes? I'm ready. Let's do it. Yeah. You want to go first? Sure.
SPEAKER_03So mine is by John Mars. I love him, I love his books, and it's uh the book The One, which is actually a five-star read for me. I read this last year, I think, and it's basically about people that have a DNA, take a DNA test and figure out who their one is. And it's told from like the perspective of like 10 different couples, and it's really, really fun and fast-paced and a thriller. It's it's a really good book. I really liked it. And all the characters have such different voices, which I love because that's very hard to pull off. Ooh, okay. So this person gave it two stars and said, so this was disappointing. Basically, a popcorn read, but the popcorn is stale as hell.
SPEAKER_05Okay, was the popcorn stale, Sydney?
SPEAKER_03No, it was so good. It was it was uh buttery and salty and crunchy and delicious.
SPEAKER_05That sounds really good. I'd eat it. I mean, that's all I have to say. Okay, so my I mean, I'm sick of these bad reviews. I need to like, I don't know. I mean, Heather Francis might be all about those negative reviews, but I mean, she had some really good advice on how to take them and how they can help you. But you should watch that episode. I'm so annoyed with these people. Me too. I'm about I'm about to show you. Someone that I'm annoyed with. They reviewed a genre blending book. A very on topic one. Good job. Yes. The Time Traveler's Wife. Oh, so good. Yes. Tons of people loved it. It has over 12,000 reviews on its Amazon, and I just picked one of the two stars because its title drew me in. A terrible premise with hidden agenda. Oh my god. Now I know, right? So so I forward to this book and thought it was perfect for me. Sounded like romance and time travel, both favorite topics to read or see in a movie. I was terribly disappointed. I'll say something positive first. The author was uh the author has creativity and some talent. There were times where I stopped and thought, that's a great line. But that's the only good thing I can say. The premise that Henry could this is my favorite part of the review. It's not the juiciest part, but this is my favorite part. The premise that Henry could be in two completely different bodies at the same time was just plain stupid to me. I may have accepted it a little better if maybe he was watching in spirit some other time that he traveled to, but something about the quote unquote two bodies in different times, but at the same time just plain irritated me. I'm like, okay, like I don't know. I don't think your idea is any better. Yeah. Like I think your idea is plain stupid.
SPEAKER_03Well, this person is very knowledgeable about time travel, okay?
SPEAKER_05They really know how it works. Yes, exactly. You can only write it one way. Exactly. Yeah. Anyway, then they go a totally different direction, which is really funny. So and then I kept having the hidden agenda pushed in my face. Basically, quote, let's get the young people to think about communism. What? Yeah, they went in. I was not surprised to see the author is a professor at a college. What else brainwashing the younger generations to be against evil capitalism and romanticized communism, which is behind the vicious killing and torturing of people for generations? The young readers might want to see what their fantasy communism is like in real life and look at the photos of Christians being tortured by their Chinese communist government to name just one instance. I really did not like this book at all, and not only would not recommend it, I will actively voice my objection to it. Anyway, I thought that that was a very entertaining review. I don't even know how to respond to it because it with laughter, five people found it helpful. Shut up. I mean, people will always find it helpful. You can always find five people to agree with you. Well, I guess there's I'm trying to think of something to say, but I mean, I guess no matter what you write, people are going to put their own views of the world onto what you wrote, either as objection or agreement. And that baby isn't your own. That manuscript isn't your own. You sent it off to school with this little backpack on, and it's gonna meet that bully and it's gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that is a perfect example of someone projecting their own feelings and values onto a book because there's literally nothing there about that. I'm I'm trying to even think. It's literally just about these lovers. Like I I I can't.
SPEAKER_05I you know, it's funny though. I didn't like that book. I didn't like it, and I didn't finish it. Yeah, I remember reading it, and I didn't like it for my own stupid reasons. I but I didn't get any whiffs of like pro-communism agenda stuff from it. It that's just a really funny for thing for someone to say. I actually wanted to ask you, like, is that in there? No. At all? No, at all. You want to know why I didn't like the book?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Okay, everybody lean in.
SPEAKER_02This is why Lisa didn't like this book. Too many adverbs.
SPEAKER_05I I couldn't I couldn't get over how many adverbs this author used, and I didn't like it. And I just stopped reading it. And that was it. Yeah. Well yeah, but you would like it because it I think it has a sad ending.
SPEAKER_03It does. It I oh I actually went and saw it in theaters and I cried the whole time. Cried when I left the theater, cried all the way to my car, cried all the way to my car.
SPEAKER_05I picked it up because some girls were talking about it in uh a secondhand clothing shop that I happened to be in, and they were like, I couldn't stop crying, and I was like, Oh, I should buy this book. So it was so beautiful, tragic, yeah, and beautiful. I loved it. In the movie, did they show the mom being decapitated? I think about that like once a week. What like when when I'm driving, I think about the mom, like the the car accident from when he's little with the truck in front of them and whatever they were, pipes or two by fours or whatever sliding back and decapitating her through the windshield. No, they didn't show it. I mean, that was one of the most grisly, shocking turns in a book that like I was I was not expecting that amount of violence in this book.
SPEAKER_03Wait a second, hold the phone. Time traveler's wife is a romance, is it not? No. Well, I don't know. How does it end? Well, I'm asking you, if you read that book, I only read half of it. Okay, as you were reading it, did it feel romantic to you?
SPEAKER_05Did it feel like a romance? I mean, if it had a sad ending, then it would have been a drama with a strong romantic subplot. Oh my god. But it wouldn't be it's okay, it's it's the ending of the word. Romance. You can say if it's romantic, they can die for all I care at the end. If it's a romance, then that means that it's like it's like a dream. It's it's it's a fantasy. And in your fantasies, your dreams are not nightmares. There's a separate word for when things go bad when you're sleeping.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'll have you know. It depends well. I met a woman at the conference, and I told her about this. Actually, she brought it up to me, and she was all, I just don't understand why romance books have to have a happy ending. And I was like, Where is Lisa right this instant? I need her to come stand in front of this woman and hear her take my side. She would have been sorry to meet me.
SPEAKER_05Okay, I think we should wrap up this episode. We have more uh news from the conference, but we also have a fantastic episode for you next time. I'm really excited. Ready to announce it?
SPEAKER_03Yes. Next week we have a very special guest, Krista Carmen. I'm a little bit fangirling about this because she wrote How to Fake a Haunting, which is one of my favorite horror books. I gave it five stars last year when I read it, and then I reached out to her just thinking like maybe she'll come on the pod, and she agreed, and I did squeal and dance around my bathroom while after I read the message. It's basically well, I won't share much about the book. We'll save that for next week, but she is such a great writer. So excited for us to chat with her. And so stay tuned because next week you're gonna get to meet her.
SPEAKER_05Yes, I'm so excited. I mean, I'm reading the book right now, it's great. I can't wait to talk to her.
SPEAKER_03All right, so we will see you next week on PageFright. Like and subscribe.
SPEAKER_05Bye.
SPEAKER_03You just listened to Page Fright. Don't forget to like and subscribe and write to us at pagefrightcontact at gmail.com.
