Bad Gurus, Cults & Toxic Spirituality

Several prominent cases of spiritual leaders from diverse traditions have faced accusations or convictions for crimes, including se*ual assault, since the 1960s. These cases often involve gurus, spiritual teachers, yoga leaders, and self-help figures who attracted large and devoted followings.

Trigger Warning: some discussions include domestic abu*se, SA, coercive control by spiritual teachers, and self deletion. 

High-profile examples highlight how charisma, authority, and the promise of enlightenment can sometimes be misused. In this episode, we look at well-known figures such as Jim Jones, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, Elizabeth Clare Prophet, and the movement founded by Sun Myung Moon, often referred to as the “Moonies.” Their stories reveal how spiritual communities can sometimes shift from inspiration to control.

Together we explore the psychology of devotion, the power dynamics between teachers and followers, and the warning signs that spirituality may be turning toxic. Why do intelligent, sincere seekers sometimes become entangled in harmful systems? What makes a charismatic leader cross the line from guide to authority figure who demands obedience?

This conversation isn’t about attacking spirituality, religion, or people who found themselves in a cult or born into one—it’s about discernment. By examining these cases, we hope to encourage deeper awareness, critical thinking, and personal sovereignty on the spiritual path. Because true spirituality should empower, not control.
Characteristics of a cult leader source: Google Search Assistant 

For clarification: 

Jim Jones/Jonestown: 304 children lost their lives.The Movie "What the Bleep Do We Know" was produced by the described cult Ramtha School of Enlightenment. The whistleblower in NEXIVM, Mark Vicente, was one of three directors and was the films director of photography.

Mark Vicente (YouTube): @markvicente7

Steven Hassen: https://freedomofmind.com

Cults to Consciousness (YouTube): @cultstoconsciousness 

Please share, like, subscribe, and review on your favorite platform, visit our website (mhc20.com), and follow us on Facebook. To schedule a reading with Susanna, contact mediumunplugged.com. If you would like a reading from Annalisa, contact MHC20.com.

Please share, like, subscribe, and review on your favorite platform, visit our website (mhc20.com), and follow us on Facebook. To schedule a reading with Susanna, contact mediumunplugged.com.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to Metaphysical Hippy Ticks 2.0. I'm Susanna Mastery, Psychic Medium and author of Living Beyond Death. My co-hosts are Psychic Medium Annalise Sebastiani and ET experiencer Terry Scalia. We focus on grounded, honest conversations about consciousness, mediumship, channeling, ETs, psychology, and modern spiritual culture. Thank you for joining us. Heaven's Gate, The Moonies, Osho, Nexium, John of God. Throughout modern history, charismatic spiritual leaders have promised enlightenment, salvation, and secret knowledge, and thousands have followed. But what is it that draws people to these powerful spiritual figures in the first place? And more importantly, why do people stay? So who should we start with? They're also good. Yeah, exactly. Let's go back to the 60s and 70s to start with. Do you remember the Hare Krishna's? Yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

I used to be terrified of them, and then all of a sudden, by the time I got to grad school, we were hosting they come to our campus, make vegetarian food, and everybody loved it. And it was like really low-key, and they were cool people, they weren't trying to push anything on you. It was like a weird change where I was like, Oh, okay, these Hare Krishna, they're cool. I don't know. It was it was but earlier in as a kid I was terrified of them. Yeah. I don't think it's a different religion in terms of it they've changed their beliefs, but I think they've changed their practices and how to evangelize. They don't seem to do that. What they believe, what what I've looked at, does not seem weird or scary or bad to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

And and that could be said for a lot of these cult like followings, is that their core belief system is pretty much the same throughout, just like religion, right? The core teachings and beliefs of religion of all religions is pretty much the same thing. It's what they do with it and how they control it and control you and twist things to get their following.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Every religion starts as a cult. It turns into a religion after a certain number of participants, I think.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

Yeah. Just to make it clear for everyone, we're not any kind of experts on cults or narcissism, and we're not offering legal, medical, or psychiatric advice. And I'll put referral links in the description for people that we would refer you to that are pretty much cult experts, like Stephen Hassen, who was a former Mooney and term cult expert. We're just remembering things that happened during our lifetime and the experiences that we have had. And Moonies is the next one. I remember the Moonies. I do too. That was kind of wild.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Didn't they all like hundreds of them get married to each other at the same time?

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Mass marriages. Very controlling. It's still going on. The sun. Is it? Yes. I think the sun has taken over.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

I don't think they've mellowed like the Hare Krishna. I don't I don't think I'd want to hang out with them.

SPEAKER_03 3:02

No, I saw a documentary on it not too long ago, and I don't think they've changed very much. But that was definitely deemed a cult. And plus he was uh what's his name? Sung Young Moon.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Sung Young Moon.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

He got into politics.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

And yeah, I remember that. Steve Hassan has a whole story about when he started waking up that it was a cult and he started recognizing lies that were being told. Very interesting story. And then there was Heaven's Gate.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Oh, that was a I remember that distinctly because I flew home from grad school when that was announced, when the the bodies were found. And I remember being in the car going, What the hell? Very strange.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

I I don't understand how people got into that. I don't I don't understand how the men would say it was okay to be castrated. I do.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

And they didn't have a doctor do it. Oh, that I don't understand. But I think these were people that were the on the outskirts of everyone's through the sexual revolution. I think these people were probably simply asexual. Or at the unfortunate worst, like or Apple, whatever his name is. I think he was a closeted homosexual. Oh, definitely. And I think a lot of these people that were in that cult felt a kinship to people who did not want to have sex but could not say that because you look stupid if you're not someone having sex. Or, you know, whatever it is that they Marshall Applewhite. Marshall Applewhite, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Yeah, that's that's what it was.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

Co-founder of the UFO-based religious group, Heavenscape. That the UFO was gonna come down and take them to another planet.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Well, didn't they do that at a time when there was a massive hail bomb? Hailbop coming. And they were going to hit your ride on the ride. Hit your ride on the hailbomb. Hit your ride on the hailbomb.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

And weren't they like computer people? They were uh a majority of them were savvy with computers and stuff at a time when not many of us were. It was way at the beginning of the internet when that happened.

SPEAKER_03 4:54

Now, how do you think that differs from the meteors that have come into our solar system and people getting all oh, that's a UFO, oh, we're being enlightened by this comet. Well, there's been just a couple of rocks passing through our users. Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

It could be. But there's been two recently. There was a Mahuma Hama, whatever. Oh, really? I forget the circulating M. And then there was right after that, there was the oh gosh, it was a number and a letter. Oh, it was like A3 or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

A2, yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Um, I3 Atlas. Yes, yeah. I3 Atlas. I don't know. Maybe they are UFOs. I I don't know, but who knows? They're looking beyond the earth for help because everything's so screwed up here. And they're looking for answers, and they're looking for someone outside of the earth to come in and save us from ourselves or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

And they're just latching onto this. It seems like they're also looking to not take responsibility. They want to give their power to something or someone else, yep, and then feel like they're in a group that thinks the same way, so that gives them comfort. It just seems more like I don't want to have to live in this reality, so I'm going to live outside of this reality.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Yeah. People don't want to look at that and say, hey, we created this. This is our fault. Yeah. We got it. We created it, it's up to us to fix it.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Yeah. Most people want someone else fix them. Yeah. Or fix their problems or tell them what to do.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Hell, I'd love that. Not me. I'm not looking for it. I mean, but wouldn't that be nice to snap fingers and have it all taken care of? Sometimes it's a lot of work to work on yourself.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

Exactly. What do you think the basic needs are that people have?

SPEAKER_02 6:35

They're looking for immunity, they're looking for they're looking for support, they're looking for their tribe, they're looking for yeah, to be seen, to be heard, to be validated, big one, yeah. And what fascinates me more than the actual cults themselves is what makes people fall for them. I mean, we all kind of feel that. We all want validation, we all want community, we all want all those things, but what is it that makes people join a cult and follow these cult leaders? I don't know if it's something in our DNA. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

I don't know because I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and says, I'm gonna join a cult. No, and I don't think when you're in a cult, sometimes you don't even know you're in a cult when you're in one. A cult can be anything, it can be any organization, it can be any group, it can even be your family. Absolutely. And I think a really good example would be Jim Jones. Yeah, and how he started out as a preacher.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Oh, not only was he a preacher, he was amazing. And I'm not saying it's that I love him, I'm just saying he was amazing at bringing together the races. Yeah. Because it was a time when there was such divisiveness and turmoil, and everybody loved that they could just be this diverse crowd of people in a church. And look at it back at those videos, that looked fun, that looks cool.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

When when he first started out, he started out in Indianapolis in 1955, and he ended up at his peak. He had 3,000 followers.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

And it was a place where people of all races could come, and they were accepted. He was into civil rights, he was into charities, he became political, and they had a commune, and then things started to go south. He started to get power. Yep. He started in with all of the characteristics of a cult leader of isolating people, that he was supreme, that he took advantage of their vulnerability and their wanting of community. And then he had them, which a lot of cult leaders do, you sign over all of your money, all of your assets, all of your property, everything you make going forward goes to the leader. Then in the isolation, the outside world becomes demonized.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

And we are the only ones with the truth. You only listen to me. That's the scary part of every single cult. I mean with the truth.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

I am the one, I am the only one that has the truth, and everyone that does not believe the way I believe are evil, they're whatever. So, yeah. Oh, that's the scary part. And people are so easily manipulated.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Well, that's the other thing. His manipulation specifically, he would do faith healing, and this person would say that they have back or can't walk or whatever problems, and then all of a sudden, by the end of his screaming prayer at them, they were running around a church. Turns out that woman worked in the office as an administrator, and and you know, I mean, he had plans to make these people think that supernatural things were happening all around him, and they were not.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

I'm thinking you just have to have some kind of charisma. Well, charisma, but psychopathy. Oh god, yeah. To do this in the first place. I agree. Somewhere in somewhere. Even if they're fooling themselves, they have these tendencies of narcissism or struggles. Yeah, that power will bring out.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

I'm curious to know if people who follow cults, if they come from abusive childhoods or you know, too, had a lot of trauma in their life. Yeah. And that makes them more susceptible to being manipulated because they've been manipulated their whole entire life. Yeah. And it feels like comfort as opposed to. And it feels like comfort. Yeah. Even though they were traumatized by it, and even though they knew that it probably wasn't right, that's all they know. Their nervous system only knows that.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

So then with them, with the cult leaders or any kind of religious, whatever organization it is where someone is dominating and wants control, it's a slow drip of brainwashing.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

The whole boil the frog thing. Yes, you do it slowly, you don't even realize what's going on. Like she said, it's a slow drip.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Yeah, and that means that even the three of us who are sitting here talking about that could be vulnerable to certain things. Like it just depends on what you everyone is. I don't think you have to be a certain person to be sucked in by a cult. No, it could have to be.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

Plus, if you start seeing things, if you're in an organization and you start to see things that just aren't quite right or lying by the leader or something else, then it's your fault that you misunderstood. Yes. And there's a whole lot of gaslighting that goes on.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

I was just gonna say that's gaslighting.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

And then you get starting to think maybe it is me. Did I really misunderstand? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 11:29

That happens in marriages a lot.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

I was just gonna say that. There's nothing to bounce off of because you're only isolated in that situation.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Yeah. I was in a marriage where I was gaslit all the time. Ugh. And yeah, I was totally convinced that I was just so messed up. Everything was all my fault. I fell for it. Hook, line, and sinker. Gaslighting is part of my trauma too.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

Yeah. Yeah. So let's see.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Uh who else do we have? Uh John of God. Now that I gotta say that one hurt. That was that was that was a sad one.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

I had friends who went down and had great times and I was looking forward to someday maybe kind of checking that out for myself, but what do you guys think of the psychic surgery stuff? Do you think that stuff is at all real? I mean it seems symbolic to me, but what do I know?

SPEAKER_03 12:12

I can't buy into that one.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

No, it's it's a bit of a magic trick.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

But then again, if you have somebody who's seeking that and they believe that that has healed them, we see what we want to see.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Well, and for better or for worse, you can heal yourself if you believe you're being healed.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

That that seems to be clear. I mean, you have to have a certain amount of giving over to that belief, but I think that alone is kind of fascinating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

I had a a friend who went down there once a year. Wow. And someone else. Another friend who had gone down there a couple of times. Yeah, that one hurt a little.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

We want to believe. We want to believe that that is true. We want to believe that these leaders can do all the things that they say they can do. We really want that badly.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Mm-hmm. I often wonder when you think of them, I mean, in their mind, and it gets too big and it gets overwhelmingly like they're a god, they can either believe in that or they can be insecure. And I feel like it's easier to kind of go into that belief where you believe yourself and the believe the press of yourself to kind of calm down the insecurity, you know, because all of these men are that we've just talked about are wildly insecure human beings.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Yeah. All of them are. Who had way too much power.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Men either. No, it's not all men. There's Claire Prophet. There's you know a bunch of people.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

Yeah, Claire Prophet, she was a big one too.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Well, and didn't we get what the bleep do we know? That made a huge dent in people's interest in all the metaphysical stuff, and it turns out it was produced by a cult. It was what it was what?

SPEAKER_03 13:42

Produced by a cult, isn't it? I didn't know that. No, the guy that filmed it was a follower of Keith Rainier.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Oh, there's two of them because I thought I thought Claire Prophet wasn't was part of his team as well. Oh my goodness, maybe I got that wrong. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Yeah. I bought that movie when it came out. I thought it was. I did see. Yeah, I saw it in the movie theaters. This is so cool. I mean, a lot of it is true, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

I mean, I wasn't put off by any of the uh the guy who did the film is he has his own podcast now. He and his wife were one of the first uh whistleblowers of Nexium. Really? Yeah, yeah. He is a very, very interesting man. He's from South Africa, very intelligent. I love his podcast. I followed him on Patreon for a while, and he has some really interesting guests on. Well worth a listen to. Um he started to wake up. I think he was, I don't know how many years he was with him, maybe 20 or less, 12 years, something like that. I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

I did not know that connection. I got the name wrong. I'm so sorry. It wasn't Claire Prophet, it's Jay-Z Knight. Jay Z Knight, yeah. Transmedium.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Jay-Z Knight.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

A transmedium, that's what it was.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

Yeah, yeah. Allegedly, allegedly, towards the end of her channeling. I can't remember who she channeled, but Rampha. She Rampha, yeah. Cultish kind of thing. And Tom was reading the at the time, people were saying that her source, whomever was channeling through her, left her.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

And then she kind of made up the rest of it. Yeah. Oh, I can see that happening. Yeah, I can see two things being right at the same time. Like she could actually be a channel and screw up and kind of go the way of her own humanness and not be the channel anymore. That yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

How often does that happen, do you think? A channel who's the person or the entity that they're channeling decides that they're done doing what they're doing, and these people have been channeling this person for decades, right? Does it commonly happen that they would now they're stuck, they're going, Oh my god, now what do I do? And I've made this my career, and that would be terrifying.

SPEAKER_03 15:44

I have asked Abram about that because there are a couple of people that we have seen on YouTube. It doesn't seem like their channeling is up to par anymore. Maybe. And he was saying that if Tom ever went the way of not using his integrity and was not ethical, that he would leave in a heartbeat, that Abram would be done.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

That makes sense then. That makes sense that the entity would say, okay, this is no longer It makes you wonder.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Uh because I think about oh, who's the guy? Uh mm. You know, I mean he's been doing it for decades, right? And so when you've been doing something for decades, you've memorized everything.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

You know everything. Tom has been channeling for over 53 years, so that's five decades worth. Yeah. He's still going strong. I think it's all based on integrity and ethics.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

But but is there a is there a way to tell if somebody is faking it? I don't know. I I don't know. My thing is if you're listening to a channel and the information resonates with you, I mean, who cares if it's made up or not? I mean, if it resonates.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

I kind of agree with that. It's I mean, it's the same like the the placebo. If the placebo works, what who cares? If it helps you and and you believe what is being said. Something that I get sometimes that I cannot explain or describe, it's just a feeling like, mm-hmm, I don't want to be part of this. And where I felt that this is probably gonna be pissing a lot of people off, was Doreen Virtue. I went to see a lecture of Doreen Virtue, and all of a sudden I was like, Oh, I don't feel good here. And I loved all her cards and everything. I I was totally into it. I even thought about taking one of her classes. And when I went to in person, I was like, I got the distinct feeling that everyone was in this kind of hive where you dressed the same and looked the same and did the same thing. So I tested it by not following along. If she said stand up, I stay seated. And the feeling I got was weird. There's a picture of Nazis and then there's all of them giving the zig heil, and then just one guy standing there not doing it. That's what it felt like. And I was like, okay, this is weird. I I'm not used to this feeling and I don't like it, so I'm gonna dip out of here. And then, you know, years later, now she's renounced all of that and has become the exact opposite, but in the Christian. Yeah, I was just gonna ask you if she's the one that went to Christianity. She is, she's the one who now says all of that is a lie, all of that was the devil.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Oh, I do remember that. Now you now that uh you mention it. I think she was that was quite a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

But all those books, she had all of her names, her name taken out of all of those like hundreds of decks that she produced throughout her career.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Yeah. I just think people need to be really skeptical. I I think people need to think for themselves. And I think these occult followers, they don't think for themselves. They just believe what they're being told and they take it at face value and they live their life that way. Anybody who is telling you things that are isolating you from your friends and family that are telling you what's the truth and what's not the truth, and manipulating you and lying constantly to you is not not a good person.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

It's not love.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

No, it's absolutely a hundred percent not love.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

And it without naming the religious, because there are several out there, the shunning of families, the shunning of the person if they decide to leave, the shunning that kind of loneliness that is the result of that will mess with the mind so much. It that it's white people stay, I think. They don't want to be ripped away from what they know and their community that they have built with that.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

All right, so I'd like your opinion and how you feel about this. About the New Age movement, which started in the 60s and the way it has progressed because Elizabeth Clare Prophet was part of that, and her thing was the apocalypse and all of the veermongering that goes on. That the New Age movement itself is a cult. And all of the the toxic spirituality that's happening, and it's all over YouTube, all over YouTube. And people, I don't know what their motives are, I can't say what their motives are. And so many are just spewing out such misinformation and BS, it's astounding. And those people are getting thousands of views, thousands, scary, and they have thousands of followers. What is it about people where they need to hear such BS?

SPEAKER_01 20:12

They don't know it's BS though. They need to hear something bigger than themselves is taking over, is my opinion.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Some of this stuff is just outlandish.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Oh, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

How?

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Tell people what we do and they think it's crazy. Crazy is relative.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah. People are just not critical thinkers anymore.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Why is that not taught? Why is there not an actual class, a system of creating critical thinking? I took a class. Did you? Because I didn't. It was in college, yeah. It's cosmic?

SPEAKER_02 20:43

A critical thinking class, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

I had an ethics class. This is another thing, and it's not a conspiracy theory because it's coming true. I mean, this is in real life, in real time right now, is that we have been dumbed down specifically since the 60s. It is a planned effort to make people stupid and compliant.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

All it takes to do that is taking over something like TV, radio, books. All it needs to happen is repetition. Yes. You repeat something over and over again, it becomes truth, whether it's a lie or not.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Right. That's one of the traits of a cult leader. Repeating the same thing over and over, so much so that you're listening to them and going, Didn't he just say that 10 minutes ago? Didn't he just say that yesterday? Or didn't she just say that a week ago? That's one of the tactics of the brainwashing. If you continue to repeat the same thing over and over again, people will start believing you.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Yeah. And I think that's a really big part of all of this what I call nonsense. This is just my opinion. Mm-hmm. Is that this kind of stuff, this toxicity of spirituality is being repeated and repeated and repeated. And I'm seeing big names repeating it and repeating it and repeating it.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Mm-hmm. That's some dangerous stuff. I mean, I think in today there are people out there Trying to manipulate everyone and getting them to be to toe the line. So talk more about the Nexium. Let's go back to Nexium. Have you guys seen the documentary on that? Yes. Really fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yes. And heartbreaking. Very women against women, in a sense, you know? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 22:21

And it started out as uh wanting to help people perform better in their jobs and their careers. And what he didn't want to buy into that, you know? What he did to a lot of basic core beliefs of how we manifest, which has also been really it's been bastardized? Yes, exactly. And it's been pulled in so many directions to mean so many different things, and people use it for whatever their agenda is, and it the the whole real meaning of how we create our reality with our our thoughts, emotions, and and now we know the R A S R A S in our brain that it started out great, but what would have been a big red flag to me, and which has always been the first red flag to me, is when people dress the same or they have some kind of pendants. Yes, or their sashes. Or wear the same shoes. A hand signal. I've never been a follower of big groups, and which is why I never got involved in any of these groups. Um even when they were popular in like even still the mind control. I never nothing. I just just in title made me afraid. I'm like, it sounds interesting, but um, I don't know about that. It's still around.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

I know it sounds like interesting stuff, but I haven't actually delved into it because it feels a little weird.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

I haven't either. I've just stayed away from all of that stuff. It's just been an instinct for doing that. But there's so many people that need that community that need to be together with other professionals, you know, where you can network.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

The whole thing is networking. A lot of a lot of businesses, not only you know, Hollywood community, but a lot of other corporate businesses, networking is key. And that's not something that comes naturally to everybody, how to network, you know, how to be outgoing and pretty much present yourself as the product. I think when it went into the corporate realm and Nexium is proof of this, it became normalized.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

Yeah, that's the thing.

unknown 24:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Once you normalize something, yeah, scary stuff.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

Again, once you're in it and once you've had this brainwashing for years and years and years, and all of this conditioning, when I first heard about the women sending naked, very explicit photos to their quote unquote master, that right there would I would have said these are the ones that were branded too, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:45

These women got branded. Yes, yes. Jesus God.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

So that's another thing that that a lot of uh larger cults will do is they'll get compromising information on you that they can blackmail you with.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Well, that sounds like somebody else I heard of the recently. Yeah. And yeah, and so these women got branded. Mm-hmm. Would you ever walk into a situation and think, I don't think these women did either, where they would eventually get themselves branded to be, you know, owned by this person.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

They wouldn't wake up that morning and say, Oh, I want to get branded.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

I think I want to get branded now. With your initials.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

Initials.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Couldn't just get a tattoo. No, I had to get branded.

SPEAKER_03 25:24

With the what did what did they use? A soldering iron? Soldering irons.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Jesus God. And these women, I mean, and what was sold to them was that it was girl power. It was, you know, it was all about raising them up, and it really was just the same fucked up patriarchy that it's always been.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

I didn't realize people were so easily manipulated. It's shocking to me that people are not able to see the signs of when they're being manipulated and when they're being controlled. It's you gotta pay attention to that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

Well, that's another thing. Bikram yoga.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 26:00

When there's physical abuse going on as well as sexual abuse, and they tell you that it's part of your enlightenment and it's your path to spirituality and something's wrong with you if you don't do it.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

Tell me those people don't get some kind of red flag. Even if they ignore it, do they not even get some kind of red flag when something like that I don't know comes about and they're asked to do something that they would never have thought about doing before and that they just do it?

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Are they looking for a father figure? Are they looking for that kind of validation from a particular person that has power? I I mean, you have to override your own stuff, your own red flags, in order to stay in that situation. So if there were, you are stuffing them down. Like this, but this, you know.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Look at women in controlling abusive relationships. Yeah. It can be a slow thing. And I have been in a situation myself where the dating has been great, it was beautiful, it was wonderful. Minute a ring went on my finger, uh, personality completely changed.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

You hear that story so many times. That is wild to me.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

Manipulative men or women, because it happens to men too.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:09

Not only the gaslighting, not only the abuse and the threats on your life and maybe the life of children that are involved, it's a woman just can't pick up and leave. No. They just can't do it because you've heard the saying, how does it go? Men are afraid that women will reject them, and women are afraid that men will kill them.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Yeah. Not that men can't be abused, I've seen men be absolutely physically abused by those spouses too.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

I was abused for three and a half years by a boyfriend many, many, many, many, many, many, many decades ago. I know exactly what it's like to be a woman who is unable to leave. For me, it wasn't like financial or I mean, I knew this guy is evil and I need to get away from this guy, but he would threaten to kill me and my kids. So you hear that all the time. Do you believe it? And I really, really honestly believed that the only way I was gonna get away from this guy is if I come if I killed myself. So it finally ended because my one of my children got hurt and I was on the phone calling the police. And so it was over. So I understand how these women stay, I get it, but there comes a point where you have to take the chance and and say, My life and the life of my children outweigh what this guy is trying to do to us. You just have to take the chance and just get out. You have to.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

What makes people stay in cults, or maybe they don't think of it as a cult, a group? What makes it difficult for people to leave? Why can't people leave? With the Jim Jones situation, they were getting threatened. They they couldn't leave. They couldn't leave. They couldn't leave. They killed the the congressman.

SPEAKER_04 28:50

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

What was it, 900 people died? Something like 354 children among those. They didn't have to and mothers watching it right in front of them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Yeah. Mother giving the drink to their children. Mm-hmm. Or injections.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

That refused got shot. Yep. So that was the situation. He definitely took them to another country where they would be isolated and he would have more control.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

And he knew that he had people that were with guns, that the men that he put in his militia would carry out what he asked them to do. And if that was kill the other people, it was gonna be kill the other people.

SPEAKER_03 29:22

That's another thing with cult leaders is that the people that he gets to work for them are just as prone to violence and manipulation as they are. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Yeah. So in that situation I understand, but in situations where let's go back to um Heaven's Gate, there wasn't any kind of, as far as I know, any kind of threats. And people who lived will recall that it was just peace loving and we were just a community. It might have looked like uh monks, it might have looked like a Buddhist retreat if it hadn't been as toxic as it was. Didn't he get weirder in the time when he did?

SPEAKER_02 29:56

And did you guys watch that documentary on The Heaven's Gate and listen to the the people just prior to them doing what they did to themselves, they were being interviewed, and how soft spoken they are and every one of them, how submissive they are, and just it was like they were little, they were zombies.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

They were. I mean, they were all super intelligent, like they were not. I mean, I don't know what it was. Is that they all felt like they were outcasts because of this personality that they all seemed to share? Because it all seemed like one personality. It was one haircut, yeah, with one set of clothes, right? Yep, it was all one personality by the end. Right. That was part of the plan. Relatives would try and intervene and and say, just visit, just come visit. And they would absolutely shut anyone down that wanted to talk to them or hold them out, and it didn't make sense to anyone.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

When people are, I think, so embedded in their belief system and and that particular reality that there isn't any swing. They have to wake up themselves.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

No, no, no, that once they get caught up in that, they're so happy.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

They were genuinely happy to go. Like, I mean, we know we're talking about self-deleting, but yeah, they were genuinely like excited for the next chapter.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Yes, because they were manipulated and told a bunch of lies that they believed because they loved their leader.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Maybe they're in some reality that they created that they're living out. That is true.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

I mean, I do believe in an afterlife.

SPEAKER_03 31:18

That is true.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Maybe that's fine for them, but the way it came about is not something I'd wish on any family member to watch.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Mm-mm. No. It's horrifying. No.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

And that's a very sad part of all of this are the families. Yes. People get involved in groups or cults.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Well, let me tell you a story. So back in uh the early 80s, long time ago, just when I was getting into all the spiritualities stuff, I was given a recommendation to read a book about Sai Baba. I don't know, he's long passed away, but so I got really attached to him and his teachings, and all that stuff just resonated with me. It was just wonderful stuff. One of the things that he said that I loved so much was there's only one true religion, and that's the religion of love. And who can argue with that, right? Right. We were living in Tennessee. My mother and my sister came to visit, they were living in California at the time, and I had a book on my coffee table, one of Sai Baba's books on my coffee table. And decades later, my sister tells me this, right? My sister tells me that my mom saw that book on my coffee table, and she told my sister while they were at my house, I think Terry's in a cult. And so all these years, my mom has always thought that I was part of this cult.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

But she never tried to save me.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Never was watching you though. She was probably like, What is what's her behavior?

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Is she doing this? She was very judgmental. And when I would say something that was on a deeper level, she would tell herself, that's just part of the cult thing. Right. That's not really her. Yeah. So I thought that was hilarious when my sister told me that. I was not part of a cult. He never said, I am the truth and the way. You can't go to heaven without me, and none of this stuff, right? I did not feel like I was, and I still don't feel like I was ever being manipulated. I just loved his teachings. They just resonated with me a hundred percent. And there's nothing wrong with that. He had a large following. I mean, a large following.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Wasn't he also doing some amazing stuff like things pulling out of thin air that he was?

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Pulling vibudi out of thin air and giving it to people. He had he had his sleeves pulled up and he was just pulling, waving his hand and pulling vibri out of the air and pouring it from his hand. Right? His hand, which is the sleeve is up here. He's pouring it into people's palms because they're all sitting there and he's walking by and he's and he'll pull necklaces and jewelry. Yeah. And he would just give it to people. I still today, I still want to believe that was true because where is he gonna hide this stuff? But that's sleight of hand stuff, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Oh, no, go ahead. I know I've told you this story. I don't know if I ever told you, Annalisa. Are are you finished with that? Oh, sure. Go ahead. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. So in St. Augustine, there was a guest who came to someone else who had a meetup group. And I went just out of curiosity because a lot of people that were in our meetup group at the time migrated to this other person's meetup group by design by that other person. So I went to see this guest that they had. And you've heard of the old time in virtualism where they have the they call it a closet. Yes. So the person sits there and they sit in this dark um curtain of like cheese.

SPEAKER_04 34:44

Cheesecross comes out of your mouth.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

Out, you know, around them. So we were told that maybe there might be a trumpet floating around in the air. I definitely want it to be real, but I'm just so skeptical. And apparently this person, have you ever heard of apporting? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Apportations. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

Okay. Apparently this person would abort, he would channel and then apport crystals.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 35:13

Right? Now that is a magician's trick. A lot of people crows do it. I watch the crows all the time. They just take peanuts and they just put them down their throat. They can put four or five down their throat. Wow. There's a magician who can take a frog and store him in shut up in his throat and then Oh God. We were sitting around in this circle and he goes into the cabinet and they show him that, you know, they tie his wrist to the armchair and tie his feet to the chair, but we still can't see him. And there's a trumpet that's beside him. So he was saying, Well, I channel such and such, but you're going to hear this person in my voice. So when he started channeling, it was his voice.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

But it was like this, and he was channeling like this and getting all this kind of information. And I'm so happy to be here, and this is such love and light, and blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

So when he finished, the trumpet very conveniently fell over, so part of the trumpet was half outside where we could see it. And I'm thinking, how did he get his foot loose to knock over the trumpet? That was my first thought.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Sounds a bit formative, okay?

SPEAKER_03 36:26

And then he came out and there was a table and he started spinning up these crystals. I'm I'm back like going, oh, wait a minute. Mm-hmm. Everybody there was eating it up. I just kept watching him, and then he was going around to each person and was going to give them a message from the person that he was channeling, but it was in his voice. So he would give a message to one person, another person, another person. And a friend of mine was sitting next to me, and he gave her a message, and then he got to me and he said, Oh, your message is the same as hers. Oh, he pegged you right fast. He knew that I knew, and I knew that he knew that I knew. Well, the biggest red flag is done. I'm not done. Okay. So I'm watching him, and he had a crystal for everybody. I go up and I get mine, and I'm thinking, you know, this looks like glass. Gross. And plastic.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Came out of his mouth.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

So everybody's looking at their crystals and you know, ooing and eyeing, and I've got my eye on him. And he takes out a handkerchief or a Kleenex or something like that, and he goes like this and then puts it in his pocket, like he had one that was left over in his mouth. And it's oh buddy. You were so busted, in my opinion. That's his I'm sorry, that's his crazy.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

But everybody was eating it up. Yeah. That is so blatantly obvious. If you're gonna hide behind a curtain, I mean, there you go. Enough said.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

He's hid behind a curtain. I know that there are other mediums, uh especially in England, I think that is still done where you have like a cabinet. It is. I can't speak for any of them because I've never seen any of them. There is one medium in England that I actually really like. Her name, I think, is Elaine. I have to look up her name. I don't I don't have it off the top of my head. But her voice completely changes when she channels her spirit. Elaine Elaine Thorpe. Yes, yes, yes. We I actually really like her. Yeah, okay, you guys do too. Okay, we love her. Yeah. I love her because I think she's the real deal. But when you're talking about, if you think of the t early 20th century, they didn't have TV. These productions were a lot of times thought of as whorish. This was entertainment for a lot of people at that time. Uh-huh. So I can understand why they bought into it. Don't understand now. No.

SPEAKER_03 38:46

The next day, I went on Amazon and I looked for plastic-shaped crystals. You can get bags of them.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Oh yeah. Have you ever heard of there's it's an evangelical part of the evangelical faith. I don't know w how big this faction is, but there are dozens of videos on YouTube where people are finding jewels that fall from the sky. And this one man has this huge collection of jewels that he said just dropped out of the sky in front of him. Like he's chosen somehow to be this person. And each and every one of them looks like a piece of glass. But they swear they've taken them to jewelers and they're they're not from this world, and you can't even put a price tag on them. And I'm like, I could get that at Target right now. I want to believe. I really do.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

I know, I do too. No, but I'm so I tell everybody just keep your BS meter well caliber.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Yes, yes. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

I feel really silly when I say things like, you gotta be skeptical, you gotta look for the red flags, you gotta do this, you gotta do that. And I sound like I don't believe anything. Right. This is coming from a person who has been aboard a spaceship. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

I know, as hippie ticks, we can all agree.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

We're a little out there for sure. I know, it's crazy when I think about it. But I know what I know, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. I experience what I experience, but I sound silly when I start saying, Oh, you know, you know, this guy, you know, he's a he's a quack and all.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

But you're also not asking for money trying to convince somebody that you're the one.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

No.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

You know, if we can touch on Orshow for just a little five minutes here. The sex cult. Openly. Openly. There's no surprise, like there was no shock that he had complaints about him. They used to be in San Francisco dressed in their orange uniform with their big huge cameo of him hanging from their neck. And they were these were just white people who worked in a corporate world that decided to take off and have fun. And this man had how many rolls choices? How many? 99. Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_03 40:40

He would drive around the compound and people would line up and throw flowers. Throw flowers? What the hell, people?

SPEAKER_01 40:46

He wasn't even that cute.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

Okay. I don't even think I would want him to touch me. And then they poisoned the town. They put E. coli in. I didn't hear that.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Oh, it was awful.

SPEAKER_03 41:00

That documentary is fascinating, by the way. It is. They tried to take over politically the town. And so they put E. coli in salad bars and things like that and restaurants. Oh my god. Oh, it was.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

People would get sick and they wouldn't be able to go vote. It was sick. It was crazy. And there was one woman that was like his second in charge, wasn't she? Yeah. Oh my God.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

That's if it doesn't sound like something that God himself would do or Jesus himself would do, there's a cult going on here. Some of it you can see why people get caught up in it, and some of it you're like, what? Why? I I think people are just bored and they're looking for new and exciting.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Some of some of it is just as easy as I need more entertainment that I'm not getting.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

Yes. Maybe, maybe, yeah, maybe a lot of it is that. Maybe people are so need distractions so much.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

There's Mother God that just they they found this woman dead and like completely. Have you heard of this? Uh-huh. This is on YouTube. This Mother God was her. I heard of her. She's dead? Oh yeah. No, they she died. She I think she had cancer. They kept her. And they decorated her with lights and they decorated her with ornaments. And it was finally found out, and they're like, okay, now we have to take you in because this is illegal to do that. And they didn't ever bury her. Still going on. Like they still together as a cult. That wasn't the woman that drank the silver, the coil silver. Yeah. Turn blue. Yeah. And she would scream at infants. Like she would scream at children. And and it was obvious there there wasn't that much video of the group, but there were a couple where she was reprimanding this child and saying, put him in the closet. And they would literally put like a three-year-old in the closet to teach them a lesson. And she was screaming at everyone. And she would drink wine every night and get drunk, and she'd have to be carried everywhere because she was so sick.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

I could totally see how people can become cult leaders given how easily people are manipulated.

SPEAKER_03 42:55

Some people are born into it. Children of God.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Oh, that's so horrible.

SPEAKER_03 42:59

There's a podcast that I listen to. They're on YouTube, and I can't remember the woman's name, but it's Cults to Consciousness. Oh wonderful, wonderful podcast. You'll have to check that out. YouTube video. This woman is fantastic. She was in the Mormon religion for a long time and left that. And a lot of people that she has on our guests have been in different cults, some of them born into them. And it is heart-wrenching, it's sad, it's seems unbelievable. People do to one another and what they do to children.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

And when you're born into it, that's a whole other animal. I mean, you have no other experience but that. How the hell do you leave that? How how do you have critical thinking in that?

SPEAKER_02 43:41

How? Do you want to talk about the key components of a cult leader system? Um and talk what to avoid? What to look out for. You want me to do it? Sure. Yeah, go ahead. All right. So first one charismatic and authoritarian leadership. The leader is charismatic, unaccountable, dynamic, and often charming. But manipulative, positioning themselves as the ultimate authority, divine, or possessing exclusive knowledge. They consider themselves the sole authority on truth. They have been sent by God or God's chosen one. They often have a narcissistic, grandiose personality. The next one is ideological purity and doctrine. The group is held together by a rigid, non-negotiable belief system that is often a us versus them ideology, creating a sense of superiority over the outside world. Isolation and control. Cults isolate members from friends, family, and society to increase dependence. If they can't isolate members, they convince them that those who don't believe the way they do are dangerous and work on the side of evil. They control communication, information, and daily life, sometimes even regulating sleep, diet, and relationships. Coercive persuasion, also known as mind control. Cults use unethical techniques to break down an individual's sense of self, such as guilt and fear, to ensure compliance and prevent dissent. Exploitation. Leaders often demand that followers surrender money, assets, or their bodies to the group or leader. Lack of criticism. Questioning the leader or doctrine is strictly prohibited with doubts met with punishment, shame, or fear. They demand loyalty. And if you go against them, they will banish you. Or worse, thought reform. The use of loaded language, chanting, also is repeating the same thing over and over and over again to minimize independent thinking. That's a big one. They don't want you to think independently. Common targets. Cults often target vulnerable individuals seeking meaning, community, or solutions to personal problems. Everybody wants that. You just have to be very aware that there are people out there that say they can give you all of that, and you just have to listen to everything they say and believe everything they say. Anybody who tells you their way is the only way, run. Those are people they don't have your best interests at heart. They have their best interests at heart.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

I remember a phrase saying, did not understand as a kid at all. If you see the Buddha at the side of the road, kill him.

SPEAKER_03 46:25

I love that book.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

And now I understand.

SPEAKER_03 46:30

Yeah, I've heard of that book. It's from the 70s, and I can't tell you how many times I've read it. So what's the what's the premise of that book? It was written by a psychologist, and it's follow yourself. And if you see the Buddha on the side of the road, kill him. Like literally kill him? No. Metaphorically. It's representative of someone outside of yourself. Other than yeah, the other. Telling you who you are.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

Oh yeah. Yes. I know you better than you. I know you better than you. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

There's a lot of people out there that go with that. There's a lot of whether it's corporate world, whether it's self-improvement, any of that. I know you better than you know you. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

No, that's not the way you feel. You feel like this.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

I know how you feel better than you do.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

I'm not good with any of that stuff. Oh I I know. For someone who does what I do and it is in this why we're friends. I'm so identical. Both of us in class together were like, I think for yourself. I don't know what it's been. I didn't move out to California because all of all the serial killers out there. And and I uh it was probably a blessing because of all the different cults and things going on over there, but it's everywhere, and and it's men and women who start these cults and take advantage of people. So I guess in closing, but just tell people to follow yourself. You are your best authority, you are your best person to give you your own advice.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

And you know, you can explore stuff, you can read. Oh, yeah, but it doesn't mean you have to like buy into it. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 48:10

Don't give your power away. Don't ever give your power away. Don't give your power away. Agreed. And on that note, don't ignore red flags.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

Don't say, oh well, I'm I'm just gonna ignore that red flag because we all do that.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

We all do that. Always want to give somebody the benefit of the doubt and not like rush off immediately. I know, but over and over and over.

SPEAKER_03 48:30

You have to be vigilant in watching people's ways and watching their patterns. Words matching actions.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

If somebody tells you that you can only reach salvation through me and me alone, run. No, no, no, no. Run as fast as you can away from that person, not toward that person.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

I think I've always thought of a religion or spiritualities as ice cream. I love chocolate. I'm not that big on peppermint, but I don't hate it. It's not that I think chocolate is the only ice cream. There are thousands of flavors. Try them, have fun with them. But I don't think you're gonna have your own ice cream only be one flavor for the rest of your life. That's key, it's having fun. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Experiment, explore, adventure.

SPEAKER_03 49:11

Don't take anyone too seriously and don't take yourself too seriously. No. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

And my truth might not be your truth. Yeah, it probably won't be. But they can coexist. Yeah, but if somebody tells you they have the truth, the only truth, no, that's it puts down your truth, forget it.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

If it hurts other people, if it dehumanizes a group of people, no.

SPEAKER_02 49:31

If it pulls families apart, no. That's a big one. If your family's being torn apart because of your belief system and their belief system is so different, you're losing friends and family over this. You need to seriously look at what is going on because you are being manipulated. Families do not be torn apart. And it's not gonna be a good thing. All right, look at you guys.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

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