Episode 28 Giulia Tofana

Join Joey and Sabryna with Ghost and Gavel to discuss a serial killer that got away for years and is known to kill the most people during her reign. However, some how she is one of the lesser known of killers

Don’t forget to add us on our social media Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok all Ghost and Gavel. We also have our email ghostandgavel@gmail.com where ou can submit your own personal stories. We also not have a patreon so don’t forget to check us out on there.

Sources:
Historiamag.com
Ncdv.org.uk
Google.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the ghosting. And this is this week's episode is episode 28, and we're handed it over to Sabrina.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

This week we are going to be talking about Julia Tefana. Um, but first let's do a little house cleaning. Uh don't forget to add us on our social media, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, all Ghost and Gavel. And if you guys have any of your personal stories you want to submit, you can do that at ghostandgavel at gmail.com, all one word. And we want to keep you guys aware that we also do have a Patreon now. Please be patient with us as we are doing this independently, learning as we go. Um, we've definitely had our kinks in the road, and you know, we fix things as we have progressed, but um Patreon is a new one to us, but they are getting every episode posted to it, which you can listen to with a free subscription or following our Patreon. But there are also some tiers that we are doing, and they are named after our little fur babies that we have that you guys are always hearing in the background. So, Joey, have you heard of Julia Tapana? A very notorious uh killer that we are talking about today. Um as we continue to push forward with Dark and Spooky. Some may have heard of her, but I know a lot have not. However, she is honestly one of my favorites, which is why I finally decided to do an episode on her. I do have to give a warning that this episode is not an encouragement to take what you learn in the episode and put it to use. This is for educational purposes only. Julia is a famed woman that gained her fame for being able to poison husbands with undetectable poison of the time in the 17th century. And Palomo and Rome. Okay, so I probably butchered that one, but um we all know that times during the 1600s were not easy. However, if you were an abuse in an abusive relationship, it made times even harder, especially for women, that is until Julia came along. Not so unlike today's time, privileges and wealthy men had much power, but it was definitely worse than. Girls were chattels of their fathers, brothers, and confessors. They didn't have power to choose their own lives or partners. Quoting historian Mike Dash from ncdv.org.uk, he described Julia Tefana as a severe challenge to a quote world where men ruled as petty tyrants over their own families, unquote. He continues with, quote, even the most aristocratic of daughters were chattels of uh to be auctioned off into often loveless marriages, unquote. Hated by men of the time, but loved by women, especially those in abused relationships, and became one of the deadliest serial killers that so few actually know about. Divorce was impossible, especially for women. She became loved by starting an operation disguised as a legal cosmetic business. It is believed that through this quote-unquote business, Julia had effectively murdered over 600 men with the help of other trusted women that joined her. Women had no social, economic, or political power. Hmm, kind of like we have said before, history repeats itself, and sometimes we just don't learn much from it now, do we? There was a notorious trial in 1658 that saw that five women were executed for murder and witchcraft. This was due to the back streets being found to be known for poisoners that worked an apothecary, a place for women to bring their heartbreaks and troubles, tarot readings, and the time, tarot readings of the time, and herbs for things like childbirth. Rome became hell-bent on hunting down the quote, witches and heretics from the gilded heights of the Vatican. Even during the plague, news got around that men were more so than women, men more so than women were dropping like flies. Spies were sent out to stop women like prey to find any that were rumored to be dispensing tasteless, odorless liquids. For a change in history, it was men that didn't feel safe, worried that their broth or wine may contain drops of a deadly elixir. Many worried not only about their wives, but their mistresses, their daughters, their sisters, and any woman that could be seeking freedom. So now we're gonna go over a little bit of Julia's upbringing and what I found in research there. Born in Sicily in 1620 and had relatively happy childhood, of course, that is until the age of 13, and her mother was executed for murdering her husband, Julia's father. It is said around this time her life took a dark turn, and it is not fully known if it was her mother or a family friend that had taught her to do so, but it had taught they had taught Julia how to make a poison. For about 20 years, Julia continued to make a mixture of arsenic and deadly nightshade and lead. Now there are many different species of nightshade plants, including ones that produce common foods such as tomatoes and eggplant. So I didn't know if you knew that those were considered nightshade plants, but they are. But don't fret, these are not ones you have to worry about. It is the highly poisonous plants like Atropa Belladonna, aka Deadly Nightshade, that is of concern. Now, there are medicinal purposes for the plant, but please do not try using this foliage without the advice of a professional. But some historical medical uses for Belladonna plant are found for pain, muscle relaxers, and to help treat things like asthma, even. Uh, I bet that might be Lilith. Back to Julia, when she completed this mixture, she would bottle it and proceed to name it Aqua Tapana. And it was packaged to look like a face cream. It is claimed that on the package she would add pictures of Saint Nicholas, the Patreon saint, of children and unmarried people. Saint Nicholas was famous for helping young women and girls escape what we now call sex traffickers. Others would bottle the poison in small glass vials with the same image on the front that would pose as a jar of holy water and could sit on any dressing table without arousing suspicion. These combined ingredients would supposedly cause cold-like symptoms before the victim dropped dead several days later. I'm saying this loud and clear. In those times, not now, the poison was undetectable. In those times, but not currently, the poisons were undetectable. They can be detected now, so let's not go hog wild out there, people. Again, please refer back to the warning at the beginning of the episode. Which means women could commit seemingly the perfect crime by killing an abusive husband and get away with it, leaving them free from the abuse. As we have said before, abusive relationships still are very a very real thing today, but there are people that understand and are out there to help. I know it's not an easy thing to leave, but please know there is help out there today. Among many women that worked alongside Julia were women that had been shunned, widowed, the poor, thieves, prostitutes, and the outcasts. Many of these women were abortionists, midwives, and some even say her own daughter helped. One woman was said to have been dispensing poison during mass and at the washing streams and disappearing within the pilgrimage. So even church wasn't safe. However, many simply hid in their apothecary shops, dispensing powders and potions for all the usual aches, fever, and fevers while they brewed the poisons in the backrooms in the moonlight. It was the Duke's death that sealed their fate, and even has the spies. Even as the spies hauled them in, they continued to risk everything to help free the women of Rome from their abusers. Again, it is said what encouraged Julia to begin this dangerous endeavor was the execution of her mother in 1633 by the Holy Office of Inquisition. It is said that there are city archives that tell of the brutal bloody death, parading of women through the streets, leading her to her public execution for poisoning her husband. This obviously had a very traumatic sight, left a very traumatic sight on the poor 13-year-old Julia. However, it is truly unknown why Julia chose to carry on the work of her mother. Maybe the trauma, revenge for her death, perhaps just pure anger. Maybe Julia herself just had a darker side that encouraged her to continue her legacy despite the dangers and the risks. And then panicked and admitted to him what she had done. Okay, so another lesson from history. Like, if you're gonna go through with something like this, don't just stop. Don't panic. Go through and put an end to it. That's how you get caught. One story states she had fled to a covenant and continued to make her poisons. Another claims she was caught and tortured for her crimes in Rome. Some historians say she passed in 1651 with no one being aware of her crimes and murders. Either way, the aquatopana stayed in circulation for years, and like mentioned earlier, it put fear into many abusive men. Not confirmed, however, it is claimed that one of those men that carried that fear was Wolfgang Mozart himself. He became convinced a short time before his death that his wife had poisoned him specifically with aquatophana. So the famous musician Mozart himself. What was he doing in the background? Never know behind closed doors, I guess. I mean, that's what they do say, uh, you know, counselors and psychiatrists do say now. It's not necessarily the public you have to fear of what happens behind closed doors. Some say this whole thing was just a legend to scare abuse of men. However, some say there are archives that I previously mentioned of some of these events. Either way, the question is, was Juliet Tafana a cold-blooded killer or a heroine? There are other podcasts that cover the story, such as Killer Stories with Harvey Gillian. Um I probably mispronounced that. And even a book written on stories of the notorious woman, A Poisoner's Tale by Catherine Kent. Other sources will be listed in the podcast notes, but I figured these would be great mentions for listeners to check out themselves. They definitely were interesting and intriguing to me. So what do you think, Joey? A notorious serial killer or a hero?

SPEAKER_01 18:03

But I think it would be considered bad. It's not eyes yet to figure out if uh I could go wall and everything. Yes, that would be considered serial killer.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Well, let's not think in the eyes of everybody else. What do you believe? Like, if those times, uh let's say for your sisters, for instance, they were to be in a relationship like that, and there was nothing they could do to stop it, would you see her as a hero or a killer? Or even Addie. What if she were to come back and say that I'm in an abusive relationship and there's nothing I can do about it? Would you see her seeking out somebody to help go through with this as a hero? Huh?

SPEAKER_01 19:06

I would be the hero.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Oh, you would be the hero in the story? You'd step in for for them? I mean, I know when it comes to Addy, I would definitely be one to step in. Even your sisters, they've become family to me. I'm not gonna let anything happen to them if I can help it.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Like in reality, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah. I mean, like I mentioned at the beginning, she is a very well-known notorious one.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

I guess that's my thought on it.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Don't watch out for nightcade in your team.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

So yes, it's a serial killer.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Yes, she is known by many as a but yes, in reality, she is known by many as a serial killer. And like you said, by many, she is known as a hero when it comes to the times. Honestly, I have to think of it personally. Like if it ca like I said, if it came down to Addy or anybody in the family that needed help in that situation, I would definitely see it as a hero regardless of what was happening. So let's get our audience's opinion on this. There is space for comments. What do you guys think of the notorious serial killer Julia Tefana that is known not to actually touch her victims? I mean, even many of these men would go to the doctor because, like I said, it was like flu like symptoms. They would go to a doctor. Thinking they would be able to be cured, but it said within by the time they added these drops to meals or um wine or water because it was tasteless, it was odorless. By the fourth time, they would be dead from this concoction.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

But how you're mentioning, imagine if any of the nurses back then were in on it.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

I mean, that could be a thing too, but we also have to think of the times, it being the 1600s, women were known as midwives and stuff, yes, but actually being part of certain fields, they were women were outcasts. So would you I mean let's think if it were a man nurse and you were trying to get away if men or even so, like, I mean, we talked about in the um oh what was it, the plague episode. You know, a lot of those doctors and stuff were men, so I mean, could it be a possibility that women were helping? Yes, but I don't think they would be letting men in this profession know about their ideology of killing husbands.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Okay, and when did this take place again?

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Right around the same time that the plague happened as well in the 1600s.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Okay, so yeah, that is way off from what I just said because women started uh step or stepping into nursing in the 1860s. I thought it was a whole lot closer than what I was actually thinking, but no. So that just throws out my little theory.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

A lot of those professions in the time were men-led professions, even things like doctors and nurses were men. So I d I honestly don't I mean, could there have been some men on the women's side? Yes. I would say if there were men on their side, it was probably more so men that were not wealthy, that were poverty. Um, because we gotta think a lot of these men that were the abusers were ones that were very well known, that were, you know, had the money, had the privilege, had things like that. And you don't, at least in today's time, see people in the medical field as you see people in the medical field more as people of power. They do honestly have control over a lot of what we do when it comes to our health and how things are done. You know, they have the lot they have the final say, and you know, oh well, she needs an antibiotic, she needs uh pain medication, he needs help with this. You know, it's all a doctor's final say, and what help you do get. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

But everybody's question is is she a serial killer still, or is she a a hero? Honestly, to the women as being abused, it's a hero, but outside of that, in reality, it's a serial killer.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Yes, in legality terms, she would be considered a serial killer, because like I mentioned at the beginning, she is known to supposedly had taken out six hundred women or six hundred husbands with the help of other women.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

So with the help of all the other women, all of them should be executed or whatever, charged with the crime too, by being an accomplice.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Yes, but if we look in legality terms, I mean okay, yes, they did they did provide for the killing, but if you look in today's terms, the women that actually held the and produced the poison within their food would be the ones that convicted the crime, right? They would be they would just be considered an accomplice because they provided the poison, but it was the women that actually dispensed it within the food and within the drinks that would be the considered the true killers. But also, if you turn around and look at it in today's times legality-wise, would it partially be considered self-defense? Not on Julia's part, because again, going back, if we're looking at it, it she would be considered the accomplice for providing. Because if you think of it as abuse being in an abusive situation, then it would be self-defense, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Yep. That's sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

What were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_01 28:33

So there's the weapon, correct?

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Even though she physically didn't give it to him. It was the women.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

The wives, yes, or the sisters, or that's why I said women.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

But yes, technically, she's the one that made the poison. So she's the one that killed her. And it doesn't matter if she physically gave the poison to the men or she had somebody else do it. She's the one that made the city poison. Then all the wise or women, just so we don't got catsu, we keep saying daughters, sisters, and everything else. Well, all the women at the time would be accomplice to murder. Now, which degree of murder, I'm assuming that's gonna be first even possibility of second-degree murder.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

I mean, if you're thinking about poison in that sense, and we're thinking about the sense of legality. And they did say this would be taking place over time, it would have had to have been multiple times, and they have to go seek out the quote-unquote weapon, they would have had to have thought about it for some time. So, wouldn't that be considered first degree murder? Because it was thought out?

unknown 30:24

Yeah, yeah, it was.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

And again, they would have had to continuously administer this multiple times for it to go through. It's attempted murder if the person doesn't actually die. Like they add like the story of that supposed woman that did it once her husband got sick and then she confessed and was like, no, no, no, no, like I did this. Yeah, that would be considered attempted murder. Um, but on the terms of Julia Tefana, that's where the debate is coming in, and that's where maybe we can get the opinion of our audience is would she be considered the murderer or the accomplice? For providing.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

She provided the weapon.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

But she didn't actually go through. So isn't that considered legality an accomplice?

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Like she's the one that made it, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Even though she physically did it.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

So that's just like recent times say it is rumored that the COVID nineteen was man-made or human-made, let's rephrase that. Correct?

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Okay, and the people that rumored to make the COVID-19, would you consider them serial killers?

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Maybe not necessarily and hear me out, give me a chance to finish my thought. Maybe not necessarily the people that are rumored to make it, but if you go back along that storyline and that theory as well, the ones that released the virus, that would be what is it called? Oh, what's the term for it? Okay, so back to it, anyways. Hear me out on this entire thought. Not necessarily the person that created it, but there is also rumored that there was one person, there was a set of people specifically that released it. So in that sense, it would be considered biological warfare. So if the person that created it now in Julia's case, yes, her intent was set. So I can see where you're coming from as seeing her as the murderer. Because her intent was to murder. She and like I said, in the stor uh going through the story and the theories, there were theories that it was possibly revenge for her mother's death, it was possibly just anger, it was to carry on her mother's legacy. So I can see where you're coming from and her being the murderer. Going back to the case of COVID-19, the creator of COVID-19, was it necessarily their intent to commit biological warfare? Or was it the intent of just the person that released it? I think that's where a lot of the question comes in is the intent behind it. And I know that's hard to prove because you know you can say no, you you can say no, that was not my intent, but was it really?

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Okay, this is pulling on both of them. If you bake it, you're attending to do some type of damage. So that goes with Juliana and the COVID-19. Even though the people that created the COVID-19 rumored that well say they could have created it, they got caught, they could have been like, oh, that just wasn't nothing. They attended to do something with it, so yes. Like, but if you want to jump back over to with Juliana, say if she would have got caught before the first victim even died, she could have said pulled the same thing. But she still created it.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Okay, playing devil's advocate a little bit here. Julia, I see your point with. I and kind, you know, going back on it, I see your point in that. On the terms of COVID-19, I think we're thinking something a little bit different, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in the sense of COVID-19, it could also be you the defense could be used in the fact of research, scientific research, rather than intent.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

But were they scientists?

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yes. Uh well, we don't know because again, this is just a rumor. Um, but if it were scientists, okay, if we're thinking along that line, and and it were a scientist that supposedly created it, I think there could also be a defense that falls back in the sense of scientific research for medical purposes. Because there have been cases of that before, too, where it's turned into cases of biological warfare because it did get released. But there was question in the defense as to whether or not it was for scientific medical purposes. So I honestly I I I see your point in connecting the two and the theories behind the two, but I think both of those, I think the two cases are on different levels. Because in a sense, they are on the same level because it would be considered murder to an extent. But on Julia's case, it was in the case of poison on uh and with intent. On COVID-19, there are many theories behind it. It could be considered with intent, depending on who made it, but it could also fall along the lines of of medical scientific research, again, depending on who made it.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

My whole thing on the COVID-19 thing. That it was created in a lab, it was released to kill us because we are repopulating way too much. And that was their way of slowing it down, and that it was a cover-up and say that it accidentally got created, it accidentally got uh put out. No, they done that on purpose.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Okay, now on the COVID-19 thing, we do have to do a little disclaimer. These are just theories and personal beliefs on how it came about. This is not proven, so you know we can't call it we can't call it our own personal research or even research of others, but these are just throwing around different theories. We are going along the line of conspiracy theories when it comes to the COVID-19 at this point. You guys can throw your opinions in the comment. We'd love to hear from you. Opinions on the COVID-19 theories, opinions on Julia Tafana. Let's hear it all from the audience since this episode kind of took a turn and we talked about multiple different things. Again, our podcast is about the dark spooky things like that. And at some point in the future, you know, COVID-19 will be a thing like the bat a black plague, and and it'll be something that is considered dark, uh dark part of history. So good thing to add, it's not history yet, it's still around, you know, we're still handling it. We've made progress in over time, but it will at one point be a part of what is considered our dark history.