Episode 31 Harold Shipman

Sabryna and Joey have been on a bit of a true crime kick with it comes to those considered an Angel of Death, doctors that truly believe they have the right to end the lives of certain patients. Please heed this trigger warning as this episode does contain mentions of suicide. However, on today’s episode we will be discussing the killings of Harold Shipman. A prolific killer of Britian.

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Sources: 
Wikipedia.org
Www.aetv.com
Www.ebsco.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Well, welcome to Ghosting Air For Joey and Sabrina, and Mr. Moon already here. Today we are going on to episode number 31, and this one's going to be handed over to Joey. However, let's do a little house cleaning before we get started. Um, don't forget to follow us on our social medias, TikTok, Facebook, and Instagram. And don't forget that we have an email if you have any of your own personal encounters, personal stories that you want to share, family histories that involve creepy things, creepy children, anything that involves cryptids, whatever it may be. Make sure you email us at ghostandgavel at gmail.com. Now let's hand it over to Joey.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

And on today's episode, we are talking about Harold Frederick. Or not Frederick. That's his middle name, but Harold Fed Frederick Simpson. Or Shipman. Holy shit. But he was born January 14th, 1946, and he died on January 13th, 2004.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

19 what?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Born 1946.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Oh, I thought I was I thought at first you said 26, and I was like, holy shit, he was like almost in his 90s.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Nope. But he was an English doctor in general practice and a serial killer. He is considered to be one of the most profitable serial killers in modern history with an estimated 250 victims over roughly 30 years. He was sentenced to life imprisonment with a whole life order. On January 13th, 2004, one day before his fifty-eighth birthday, Shipman hanged himself in a cell at HM Prison. West York Yorkshire? Yeah, Yorkshire. Shipman acquiry, a two-year-long investigation of all deaths certified by Shipman, chaired by Dame Janet Smith, examinants, crimes. It revealed Shipman targeted vulnerable elderly people who trusted him as their doctor, killing them either with a fatal dose of drugs or prescribing an abdormal amount. As of twenty twenty five, shipman has been named Doctor Death and Angel of Death.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Talking a lot about Angel of Death here lately.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Shipman's case has also been compared to that of Dr. John Boken Adams, some nurses, such as a Bravley, Ellot, and Lucy LaBiah. I got the feeling I butchered both of those. Have also been uh convicted of murdering patients in their care.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Makes you wonder about doctors nowadays. I mean, I know that was not considered our days, but still makes you worry about the doctors that you see and the things that they do.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Harold Federic Shipman was born on January 9 14th. Wow, 1946. Oh wait, are they done all that? A council estate in Nothing Cam. The second of three children. His father also uh Harold Frederick Shipman, 1914 to 1985, was a lorry driver. His mother was a Verano V E R A.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Oh no, you said this was a British doctor, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Yeah. So and Britain. So any British people, can you tell us what that is? And his working class parents were devout.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Devout?

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Devout Methodist?

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Yep, that would be devout.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Okay, so the job that you were speaking of for his mother, from what I'm finding, I mean this is at least in the US. It stands for voluntary early retirement authority. So that could mean something different in Britain. And if we have any British listeners, they could correct us, but that's at least what I'm finding on that job.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Okay, not what I was expecting. Shipman was particularly close to his mother who died of lung cancer when he was at the age of seventeen. Her death came in a manner similar to what later became Shipman's own. Modest Hippman, but Shipman's own modest apprentice and later stages of her disease. She also had morphine administrated at home by a doctor. Shipman witnessed his mother's pain subside despite her terminal condition until her death in or on June 21st, 1963. On November 5th, 1966, Shipman married Primrose Mary Oxtobe.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Primrose? Maybe? Because I'm thinking Yeah, Primrose. I'm what's that one show where they have different sectors and uh they go to uh uh like they pick children and send them off and they Hunger Games? Yes, Hunger Games. Um but yeah, remember uh the one character in there, her name is Primrose. I'm sorry, I had a brain part on T. You know I don't remember names for things very well, especially when it comes to TV shows. But yes, the Hunger Games, the youngest child, her name was Primrose. You know how many Hunger Games movies there were, so I know, but uh there were a lot of characters that stayed the same. I'm sorry, off topic. Anyways, that just the name itself, that that's what it reminded me of the Hunger Games and the couple had four children.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Shipman studied medicine at Leeds School of Medical University of Leeds, graduating in 1970. Shipman began working at Pinforrect, General Infirmity in Pineforrechting of York Shrine in 1974 took his first position as a general practitioner at the Abram Moard Medical Center and Todd Moran. The following year, Shipman was caught forging prescriptions of pethahyde for his own use. He was fined six hundred pounds. Let me reference that pounds, as I know theirs is different than ours, and that is equal to four thousand six hundred and sixty sixty dollars in twenty twenty-five. God, my bad. So he was fined six hundred pounds, right, and that equaled out to four thousand six hundred and sixty-six pounds.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Dollars or pounds and current times.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

And that would be current times as of 2025.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

I didn't know if you were comparing it to US dollars, that's why I was trying to figure out.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

And still I don't see uh like I don't know, I'd have to make a conversion to US dollars, but that's why I was saying pounds, because I know over that weight they call it pounds and yeah, but what did you say the date was?

SPEAKER_02 11:36

What year did that happen?

SPEAKER_00 11:40

1974.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

That still doesn't seem like a lot for a forgery of medication.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Six six hundred dollars back then in 1974.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

But you said it was four thousand pounds current times?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah, and as of twenty twenty-five.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Yeah, see, that still isn't a lot in current times because four thousand pounds and two US dollars is five thousand two hundred and eighty dollars. And I that's just doing a roundabout number. But still, for drug forgery, that is not a lot of money because you do that stuff around here and you're thinking hundreds of thousands of dollars.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

And times is different.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

1974 and it was six thousand pounds.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

No, six hundred pounds.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Six hundred pounds. And uh today it would be four thousand.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Uh four thousand six hundred and sixty dollars.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Okay, so I'm just doing because you did the conversion from that time to current times. So I'm doing the conversion of current times in pounds to US dollars, and that still isn't a lot. That's six thousand dollars. And I mean, for drug forgery, like that, like if you do that in the US, you're looking at hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines for stuff like that. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 13:33

And on top of that, losing your medical license, everything else, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Yes, Batman, I seize you. He's like, but you're not giving me attention.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

And I won't be a part of the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Yeah, you want to say something?

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Yeah, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Okay, and briefly attended a drug rehab rehabitation clinic in York. He worked as a GP at Duney Brook Medical Center in high grader Manchester in 1977.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

So basically, I mean, he had to do drug rehabilitation, he got a fine, and he was able to still be a doctor, is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Pretty much so. In 1989, he interviewed uh in a edition of Grande Television Current Affairs Document World and Action on how the mentally ill should be traded in the community.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Traded or treated?

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Huh?

SPEAKER_02 15:18

You said how the mentally ill should be traded.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Oh, treated.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Uh yeah, that's what I was trying to clarify. I'm like, we're trading mentally ill now.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

But a year after his conviction of charges of murder, the interview was rebroadcasted on tonight with Trevor McDan McDonald. Well, but in March 1998, Linda Reynolds, a GP at the Brook surgery or surgery surgery in Hyde, expressed concerns to John Poolard, the corner for the South Manchester District, about the high death rate among shipments patients. In particular, she was concerned about the large number of cremation forms for elderly women that have been asked to be have countersigned. The Greater Manchester Police or GMP were unable to find enough evidence to bring charges and close the investigation on April seventeenth. The shipman inquiry later blamed the GP GMP for assigning an inexperienced officer to the case after the investigation was closed. Shipman killed three more people a few months later in August. A taxi driver John Shaw told the police that he suspected Shipman of murdering 21 patients. Sean became suspicious as many of the elderly customers he took to the hospital were seemingly in good condition or good health. Died in Shipman's care.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Well, I'm glad you answered that before I asked the question because I was seriously about to ask how would a taxi driver become suspicious, but you answered that for me.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Shipman's yeah, I kind of knew you were gonna ask about that, so I had to beat you to the punch on that one.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

I question too much. Curiosity, if I were a cat, it would definitely kill me.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Well, Shipman's last victim was Kathleen Groudy, a formal Mayoris. Hopefully that's right. Mayoris of Hyde, who was found dead at her home on June 24th, 1998. He was the last person to see her alive. He later signed her death certificate recording the cause of death as old age. Grandi's daughter's soliditor Angela Woodworth became concerned when he when fellow solicitor Brian Burgess informed her that a will had been made apparently by her mother with the doubts of its authenticity. The will excluded Woodworth and her children, but left three hundred and eighty-six thousand thousand well, three hundred and eighty-six thousand pounds, and that's equivalent to seven hundred and forty-nine thousand two hundred and forty pounds in twenty twenty-five. That's starting to fuck me off. Doing the pounds.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

So who was that left to? The doctor.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

It's still under investigation. It just says that. Excluded Woodward and her children, so they're not a hundred percent sure who it was left to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Well that guy was I mean, that would definitely be suspicious if it was left to the doctor, because that's what you see in a lot of murder cases is the wills being changed uh for all the money to be left to the murderer themselves.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Oh, it actually would have been for shipment. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

So yeah, that that's a definite red flag right there.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

I just didn't get to that part yet. Gurdy's body was exhumed and found to contain traces of heroin and often used for pain control and terminal cancer patients. Shipman claimed that Gurdy had been an addict and showed them comments that he had written off that effects in his comprise medical journey. However, the police examination of his computer showed the entires were written off after his death or her death.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

I know we're talking about different times here, but it dumbfounds me that things like heroin was was used at some point as medical benefits. We uh but I mean you Also, think that you know they used to say they used to allow you to smoke cigarettes in hospitals because it was good for your health.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

And honestly, still God, what was that? The early 2000s when that stopped?

SPEAKER_02 22:16

It was a little before that. It was still the 1900s. The early 2000s was more like restaurants and things like that, I believe. Where they stopped allowing smoking inside restaurants.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Yeah, that was like 05, 06, 07 type shit.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Because I remember as a kid them still asking smoking.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Again, non-smoking. Kids today won't know that one. Because everywhere we went, it was always smoking, but we wanted, or it was non-smoking, but we wanted to sit by smoking.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Now see, it depended on us. Okay, so if we were going out to eat with my grandparents who were non-smokers, they wanted a non-smoking section. Now, if it were just like my mom and us kids going out to eat, which was a rare case because I mean, you know the story of my mom and the history of my mom. But if it were just like my mom and the kids, she always wanted smoking sections because she was a smoker.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

But get back on track here.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

That's a little bit of our personal stories never hurts. It allows our audience to get to know us a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

That cough scared Luna. Well, Shipman was arrested on September 7th, 1998. It was found to own a brother type writer of the type used to make the forged will prescriptions for murder, a 2000 book by journalist Brian Whitler and Gene Richie suggested that Shipman forged the will either because he felt his life was out of control and wanted to be caught, or he planned to retire at the age of 55 and leave the United Kingdom. Police investigated other deaths that Shipman had certified and investigated 15 spectrum cases. They discovered a pattern of administering lethal doses of heroin. Okay, since I was mentioning it again, I think how you mentioned heroin was used in the medical field. I'm thinking he was Shipman was using the heroin to kill his patients.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Well, yeah, obviously he was using it to kill his patients, but what I was saying is it just dumbfounds me that there are so many things nowadays. I mean, don't get me wrong. Okay, you see in the United States how a lot of states nowadays are finding that, you know, marijuana is becoming b is beneficial to a lot of health issues. So d you know, are there a lot of drugs and things that have benefits to some extent? Yes. There there are. And I will even say, you know, marijuana has large benefits from many different areas, many chronic illnesses, many mental illnesses, things of that sort, but it still dumbfounds me, like, because I have seen the effects of heroin personally on my family members. It just dumbfounds me that a drug like that was found beneficial in the medical field. I mean, you have countries nowadays that you know, like the headaches that I get, the cluster headaches. You have countries that are finding that things like mushrooms, the hallucinic mushrooms, are beneficial to cluster headaches.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Like, yep. Hi, Batman. What Batman doing?

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Batman, battering, bat boy.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

He's like, you're giving me attention. He's like, you're giving me my attention. Yes, I'm giving your attention because I just need to figure out where I was just at. Okay, uh they discovered a pattern of his administering lethal doses of heroin. Okay, yep, that's where I was at. Signing patients, death certificates, and then falsely medical records to indicate they have been in poor health. In addition, and abominably large number of the deaths occurred around the times at the same time of day when Shipman was on his afternoon visits and in the doctor's presence in 2003. After Shipman had been convicted, a paper statistical David Spiel Halter and others found that Shipman's more Charlie rates have been mortality, mortality rates have been broadly in line with national rates between 1988 and 1994. It started to increase in 1995. They suggested that statistically monitoring could have been led to an alarm being raised in the end of 1996, although not before when he had already been 68 excuses deaths of shipman female patients over the age of 65 before reaching 119 in 1998 when suspicions were first actually raised.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Was there a reason to why he targeted female patients specifically? I mean, maybe just because they were easier to target, but I I don't know. That that piqued my curiosity because you've mentioned that multiple times.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

Oh my god, girl. But I did find uh uh some of his known oh hold on before I get into that. Uh Shipman's trial began at Princeton Crown Court on October 5th, 1999, when he was charged with the murder of 15 women by lethal injections of heroin between 1995 and 1998. Like looking through this list, the youngest one was 49, and the top two Otis were both. Oh, the top three Otis were 81, 81, and 81.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

81, 81, and 81?

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yep. I don't know. You want to read the list of the 15 names?

SPEAKER_02 30:51

Sure, we may butcher some of these, but I will do my best. I don't know, some uh most of them seem pretty simple. Marie West, who was 81 years old, Irene Turner, who was 67 years old, Lizzie Adams, who was 77 years old, Gene Lilly, who was 59 years old, Ivy Lomas, who was 63, Merrill Grimshaw, who was 76, Marie Quinn, who was 67, Kathleen Wagstaff, who was 81, this one I'm a butcher Benica, Tomfret, who was 49, Norman Nuttah, who was 65, Pamela Hillier, who was 68, Maureen Ward, who was 57, Winifred Meller, who was 73, Joan Malia, who was 73, and Kathleen Grundy, who was 81.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

But Shipman's legal representative tried to unsuccessfully to oh well, Shipman's legal representative tried unsuccessfully to have the Grundy case trialed separate as a motion was shown by the alleged forgery of Grundy's will. January thirty first of two thousand, after six days of deliveration.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Deliberation.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Debiliation, the jury found Shipman guilty of fifteen counts of murder and one count of forgery. Mr. Justice Forbes subly sentenced Shipman to life imprisonment on all fifteen counts of murder with a recommendation that he could be subject to a whole life to Roth to be served concurrently with a life sentence of four years for forging Grundy's will on February eleventh, eleven days after his conviction. Two years later, home secretary David Blunkett confirmed the judges' whole life dwarf just months before British government ministers lose their power to set minimum terms for prisoners while authorities could have brought many additional charges. They concluded that a fair hearing would be impossible given the enormous publicity surrounding the original trial. Furthermore, the fifteen life sentences already imposed render further liotations unnecessary. Shipman became friends with fellow serial killer Peter Moore while in prison.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Well, of course they had commonalities, right? Why not befriend another serial killer?

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Just which one was better?

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Well, either uh obviously neither of them were very good if they got caught. I mean they were both in prison, so obviously.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Well, Shipman denied his guilt, disputing the scientific evidence against him. He never made any public statements about his actions. Shipman's wife Primarose maintained that he was not guilty even after his conviction.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

He is being an attention whore today. He says, Dad, you need to keep petting me the whole time we record.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Yeah, I know. After his conviction. Batman. He's like, hey, he's like, I'm being this attention whore right now.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

He said at least I'm not meowing. Normally you guys have to cut out all half an hour of meowing.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah, yeah. Guilty of murdering his patients. John Bodkin Adams was charged in 1957 with murdering a patient. Aimed rumors he had killing dozens more over a ten-year period, and possibly provided the role model for shipment. He was acquitted and no further charges were pursued. The historian Paulina Collin agreed that because of Adams acquitted, there were no inputs to examine potential flaws in the British legal system until Shipman's case. Yeah, I mentioned that earlier. Or not earlier, but at the start. However, the sign ran a celebration front headline Shipship Hooray. The independent called for the inquiry into shipment suicide to look more widely at the state of UK prisoners as well as the welfare of inmates in the Guardian, an article by General Sir David Rams Bootham, who had formerly served as Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisoners, suggested that the whole life sentencing could be replaced by an defecant sentencing for the this would at least give prisoners the hope of eventually a release and reduce the risk of them ending their own lives by suicide. Damn it, Batman.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

I understand where they're coming from in that sense. You know, just trying to play devil's advocate, you know, and the fact that a prisoner ending their life with suicide does not necessarily provide justice for their crime. But do we really want to give people like serial killers the opportunity of release?

SPEAKER_00 41:05

No, it's more that they would stay in prison. My best understatement was uh from it that instead of getting the death sentence pretty much it's like you're just gonna be in prison for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

Well you you had just said that it was doing it was considering life sentences and and giving the opportunity for potential release in the future. That's why I said that. Like I said, I do I think uh an inmate committing suicide gives the family of the victims justice? No. But I also don't think the potential of release is necessarily a good idea for crimes such as serial killers.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Okay, so now I see what you're talking about, who had formerly served as her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prison Prisoners suggested that the whole life sentencing would be replaced by indefiting sentencing. So to me, that still sounds like just how I mention.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Read a little bit further down.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

I I see it. At least give prisoners the hope. Keyword, the hope of eventual release and reduce, reduce the risk of ending their own lives by suicide.

SPEAKER_02 43:31

But to me that sounds almost contradictory because I mean you're giving prisoners the hope of release, and once they realize after so many years that it's not really a possibility, aren't they just gonna do it anyway?

SPEAKER_00 44:09

I still just think it's um they just want to get the suicide or let me rephrase this, the prisoner suicide rates down. So instead of giving 'em life in prison, they're just technically just trying to return it.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

But but again, like to me that almost sounds like it's contradictory because you're just giving them also that okay, you may have the possibility of release. Let's say I have a look at it in the US term. You may have the possibility of release on good behavior but then you know, they work, you know, twenty, thirty years on good behavior, and then they're like, haha, just kidding, it was all a ploy, we're still keeping you in here, and then they just off themselves anyway.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

I just like to me I just think they're trying to get rid of the term life sentencing. Yeah, kind of reading that multiple times. I that's what I'm sure it's trying to get at.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

I mean, I get what you mean with that. I I just feel like it's like I said, it's just my personal opinion, my personal feelings. I feel like it's contradictory.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

I I physically think they just want to get rid of the the term life sentencing, but they still will be facing a life sentence.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

I understand what you mean. I just like I said, I I feel like in a sense uh it's like I said, contradictory because if you're getting rid of that term and and you're telling prisoners one thing that you know they may have hope in the future, then inevitably like their goal is to reduce prison suicide rates. But they're to me that's like saying, like I said, okay, upon good behavior, you know, we'll r we'll give you the opportunity of parole in 30 years. But then 30 years comes around and they're like, Oh, even though like you've been an ideal prisoner, we're gonna let we're still keeping you in here. Sorry. Like, that's your life sentence, like without using the term life sentence.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Okay, Shipman Shipman's motive for suicide was never established, though he reportedly told his probation officer that he was considered suicide to assure his wife's financial security after he was stripped of his National Health Service pensions. Primarose shipments received a full uh NHS pension that would have not been entitled to shipment if he last lived past the age of sixty. Additionally, there was evidence that Primrose Primrose Primrose who had considered protested shipman's innocent despite the overwhelming evidence he had begun to suspect his guilt shipment refused to take part in courses which would have an encouraged acknowledgement of his crimes leading to a temporarily removement of his privileges, including the right to telephone his wife during this period according to Shipman's cellmate, he received a letter from Primrose exhorting him to tell everything no matter what. A 2005 inquiry that found that Shipman's suicide could have been more predicted or prevented, but by the prosecutor should not less been re-examined. After Shipman's body was released to his family, it remained on shelf filled for more than a year. His widow was advised by police against burying him in case of the grave was attacked, the body was eventually cremated at Huffell World Cemetery in the city attended only by Shipman's widow and a couple's four children. And that's all I got for Arnold Shipman. Or Harold Shipman. Well, do you want to add anything?

SPEAKER_02 49:54

Again, I'm gonna kind of play devil's advocate here in some senses. I mean, I think especially with the proof provided, it would be very hard to fight for somebody's innocence. And then the understanding, like I wanna I know you said there is a lack of understanding behind his suicide and why he chose that method, but I want to psychologically, it's just the psychological part of me. I want to understand why he chose suicide other than just for the benefits of his spouse. Or as of now his widow. I want to understand if there were other reasons behind choosing suicide. If, you know, maybe it was guilt that took over, or, you know, he wanted to avoid the death penalty. I don't know if there's the death penalty in Britain, you know, that's something that you didn't necessarily say, but um I just I I want to know the psychological reasoning behind it, but that's just me and it and getting in my brain and how my brain works.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Nope.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

The death penalty is completely abolished in the United Kingdom and is not available as a sentence for any crime regardless of severity. Okay, so that right there is not a reason for him. But a lot of times, too, when can people commit suicide regardless of the reason, there's usually a note that is left, and like I said, by no use that it was for, you know, pension benefits for his now widow, but I feel like psychologically there's more behind it that we don't know about. And then most people that do commit crimes like that, he was still protesting his innocence up to his death, from my understanding of what you said. Him and his widow were still protesting his innocence up until he committed suicide.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

Or it could have been something that was uh staged to make it look like it was suicide, but in reality, he could have been murdered. And they staged it to make it look like it was suicide.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

True, there's that too. I mean, just throwing around conspiracies uh but my thought that I was getting to with that was I mean, despite the reason, there's typically a note left with suicide. And with no note being left, uh, like I said, it it piques my curiosity as to other reasons behind his suicide. Rather than just being for the benefit of his spouse.

SPEAKER_00 53:53

But not all suicides have notes too.

SPEAKER_02 53:56

I know, I know, I know not all suicides have notes, but more often than not you see a note left behind when it comes to a suicide with reasonings or you know, things of that sort. And the only reasoning we have for this is just so his widow would be taken care of after his death, because if he would have lived past a certain age, she wouldn't have had that support. Well, is that all you have for this episode? Yep. With it being Monday, I hope everybody has a great week. And of course, like we always say, it is spooky season here all around, so stay spooky. And again, if you guys have any personal stories, any input, please email us at ghostinggavel at gmail.com and make sure that you guys are giving us a rating, helping push us out there. We are a little over six months into this, and we could definitely use a little push. Um, and we would love your guys' input on the episodes. I can definitely hear the changes from our first to now, which really excites me, and I think we're just gonna progressively continue to get better at this. Have a great week, everyone. Stay spooky.