Popcorn for the Soul
Science: the Facts. Spirituality: the Feeling. Stories: the Funnel.
Decoding spirituality and Universal Guidance in our favorite pop culture!
Popcorn for the Soul
A Few Good Men with Zulma Beatriz Williams - The Swearing Therapist
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
An extra special Howdy Ho to Licensed Clinical Social Worker, Mental Health Therapist, Founder of Dragonfly Therapy Services, Breast Cancer Survivor, Podcaster, and Inspirational Speaker Zulma Beatriz Williams! Join us on our journey through A Few Good Men :)
Topics of Discussion (honestly, what didn't we talk about?)
- Zulma's Story
- The Swearing
- Authenticity; People Pleasing
- Spiritual Parallels; Numerology
- The Dragonfly; Finding the Truth
- Counsel, Intent vs. Motive, Motivation vs. Discipline
- "Change 'why' to 'what am I learning?'"
- Cyclebreakers & Therapy
- Emotional Abuse
- Be the example
- Boundaries
- Planting Seeds
- "When you know better, you do better."
- Enjoy the journey
- More on Authenticity
- Shattering Illusions
- "It's okay to say 'I don't know'"
- Downsizing & Prioritizing
- "You don't need all the answers. You need the courage to go for it because it is your dream."
- Social Media
- Reframing the ending
- "If you woke up today, that means your mission is not complete."
Want to hear more from Zulma? Who could blame ya?!
NEXT GUEST EPISODE: The NeverEnding Story
*I 100% own my novice capabilities regarding microphone work, sound mixing, and editing. I apologize if the imperfections take away from your experience and will always be working to do better.
Keep watching, reading, listening, and weaving - the answers are waiting for you!
With unending love,
Katie
Medium: medium.com/@genofvenus
Howdy ho, Ranger Joes, and welcome to Popcorn for the Soul, a podcast where I decode spirituality and universal guidance in our favorite pop culture. My name is Katie, student of life, lover of stories, and cosmic weaver pulling at the threads that connect it all. However, I do have a new friend with me today who is going to help me pull at some of these threads. In fact, my very first guest on this podcast. So let me introduce clinical social worker, the swearing therapist, mental health therapist who likes to keep it real and swears a lot, founder of Dragonfly Therapy Services, breast cancer survivor, podcaster, and inspirational speaker, Zulma Beatriz Williams. Thank you so much for being here with me today. And again, for being my first guest ever. I'm so excited.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I'm so honored. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. We are gonna have a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_00I can already tell. We're making it happen. It's happening already. All right, Zooma, can you please just tell me about yourself? Tell me your story. Let's kick it off and go from there.
SPEAKER_02Of course. So I was born and raised in Buenos Aires, Argentina. I moved to the United States at the age of 31. At 42, I was working in accounting in a big corporation and started thinking about my future. I was not sure I want to do this for another 25 years. I always had a passion for helping people. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna be a therapist. So in order to do that, I had to go to school. So I started my bachelor's of social work at 42. And um I graduated at 46. I was on track to do my master's, and then six weeks after graduation, I got diagnosed with breast cancer because life is what happens when you have other plans. So I took care of my health, moved back to Argentina to be close to my family, and then I started like I used to live in Las Vegas at the time of my diagnosis, and I wanted to celebrate my 50th birthday in Las Vegas. So I was asking God for a sign, and be careful what you ask for because you're gonna get it. I asked for a sign, God send me a fucking banner. So um out of nowhere, I got an email to my personal email, not to my student email, because after a while that you're not an student, your email gets deactivated. So I got this email from the university to my personal email saying, Hey, we have the advanced master program back. Do you want to enroll? Yes, I don't want to enrol. So I moved back to the US. I celebrated my 50th birthday. I started my master's, I graduated a year later, and I found the found um dragonfly therapy services in 2021 and then fast forward to 2025. And I turned 60 and went to Hawaii for my birthday, and I always loved the ocean, and I was like, okay, I need to figure it out how to live by the ocean. Uh and um I pray about it and and consulted with my guys, and the answer was Panama. So in December of 2025, I moved to Panama. I can see the ocean from my my window right now. I live in an apartment on the beach, and I I enjoy being in the water a lot. So I guess my I have a couple of underlines. One is I had cancer, cancer didn't have me, and then can be applied to any challenge anybody is facing, and it's never too late to fulfill your dreams. So, what are you waiting for? I uh started school at 42, my master's at 50, and English is not my first language. What is to stopping you?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I love every minute of that. I got my nursing degree right out of college, I spent six months in the intensive care unit, and I was like, this is not for me. I cannot do this. I moved to Los Angeles to pursue acting, also fell in love with the ocean, but yes, California is insanely expensive. Yeah, didn't want to act anymore, and then I had um my daughter, so we moved back home. I'm in Michigan in the US um to be around family as well, and all of that. So I totally get all of that, and um especially I so now I substitute teach at my old high school, and I'm very these kids have so much pressure on them to like have it figured out so soon and right now, and they're not you know, even just not adults yet. And it's like you need to know, you need to know, and you need to have these plans. And I figured out very quickly that I don't, and so when you came across as a match, and you know, you were re-figuring it out so much later in life, I was like, Yes, this is absolutely someone that I need to hear from, I need people to hear from because you know it's change, change scares people, and I just feel like there is this pressure to have everything figured out right away, and I don't I don't subscribe to that anymore. I you know, take it as it comes, ask for your signs, pray, and it will come to you as it's meant to.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, you're right, and and don't be afraid to follow those signs, right? Like, so it's like you uh you went into nursing, and then after doing that, you were like, This is not for me. How would you have known if you didn't go for it? Right? Like, so I don't believe in failure. I think that you are either happy or you are learning something. If shit goes the way that you expected, you're happy. If she doesn't go the way you expected, you learn something, so there is no losing. You won by realizing that oh, nursing is not for me and acting is not for me. But how would you have known if you didn't try it?
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And I've recently talked about in some episodes a lot of our learning comes from learning what you don't want, what doesn't exactly, absolutely, yes.
SPEAKER_02So cannot cannot agree with you more when I ask people what what is your passion and they don't know the answer. I I ask this what would you do if money wasn't an issue? That's what your passion is, right?
SPEAKER_00And I and I look at it to something that has helped me is would you still love this if nobody was watching?
SPEAKER_02Yes, oh my god, I love I'm gonna steal it. Please do, yeah. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Great, amazing. Yes. Um, so I wanted to know more um about this swear therapy because I'm here for it.
SPEAKER_02So, okay, when I was diagnosed with cancer at 46, I realized, so believe it or not, uh, I am a recover people pleaser. You you will you will not believe that the way that I am right now, but at the time, uh, well, not at the time, after I've been through that challenge, I realized I used to put Zulma last. So I was at the bottom of the list. Oh, what does make Katie happy? And what does make Peter happy? And what does right like so? I've been trying to accommodate to what makes you happy, what makes that happy, and it's like I realized that several things. Happiness is a decision, so I cannot make you happy, it's an impossible task. If you decide not to be happy, it doesn't matter what I do. Uh so I started like asking what makes Sulma happy, and Sulma is really happy when she's swearing. So that's how the swearing therapist came uh came along because once I became independently licensed, well, actually, while I was still being an intern, uh I had my supervisor walk, we were like all in her office, and she walked in and I said something about like um shit or whatever, and and I went like that, and she started laughing, and I was like, Oh, that's all what I needed, right? Like, so when I uh have a consultation with a potential client, I offer a 15-minute consultation call to see if we are gonna be a good fit, shit and fuck is gonna come out of my mouth. If that is a problem with you, I'm not the therapist for you. I'm gonna give you referrals. It I want you to get better, it doesn't have to be with me, right? So it's my way of keeping it real. But I will say at the beginning, before we start recording, I asked you, do you want me to keep it clean? Because I am respectful of you, your show, and your audience. And I learned that the hard way because one time I was going live, and the guy said, Oh, and by the way, you cannot swear because I'm a pastor. I was like, What the fuck? It was the longest hour of my life when I'm like, Don't say shit, don't say fuck, don't say bitch, right? Like so, but I did it, so that showed me I can do it and still keeping it real, but I'd rather be myself this way. Uh, I think that that uh allows clients to swear themselves, and I'm not telling Katie, oh no, you need to swear to be real. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I swear to keep it real. Like I had a uh a client, beautiful, awesome lady. She she is a Mormon. And I said, Are you sure you want to work with me? Because I say fuck every other word. She's like, No, yes, I do want to work with you. She never cursed during session. I did, but we did a wonderful work together, and I think that bad words are abuse and hunger and violence, those are bad words, not fuck and shit. Yes, right, but I worked so hard to to be who I am as a person on in my personal life and as a professional. I'm not gonna sit in my own uh session being the therapist and be like, oh fudge, I'm gonna say fuck, you know what I mean? Like, and I and I understand not I'm not everybody's cup of tea, but the people that I click with, we do wonderful work together. And the ones I again, the ones that I don't click with, that's what we have millions of therapies you can choose from.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I think that's been such a big thing, too. Just recognizing that you don't need to please everyone, you don't need to try to get along with everyone. If you cannot be authentically yourself in that interaction, what it the whole interaction is gonna be inauthentic, and then what are you gonna get from it?
SPEAKER_02Exactly. So there is like uh 80% of the success of therapy is a therapeutic relationship. If I don't earn your trust, you're not gonna open up. And if you don't open up, we're not gonna go anywhere. So it's like, no, girl, please, like, or or someone will say, like, I work closely with a psychiatrist, and he does the initial assessment and then he refers people. And I see sometimes he forgets to tell them that I swear, and then they're like, Oh, can I start that my girl, please? Of course you can swear.
SPEAKER_00Like I love that. Um, yeah, and too specifically with swearing, like you said, I think the bad words, you know, hunger, abuse, all of this, like every word, every letter has a vibration under it, and it has like its own story behind it. And I don't know if you've ever heard of the show Ted Lasso. Um, but there is, yes. So there's a character in that who he's kind of um, you know, bullied at first, and he cusses and he says something about it. And Ted, the coach, says, you know, cuss words are what we use when we can't think of, you know, something that sums up what's going on when we can't come up with the words for it in the moment, you know, they're you know, they're there for us. I think it's totally fair to use that because it gets the point across, they're they're universal, you know. So I'm totally with you.
SPEAKER_02Plus, when I say, oh, sugar, you know, I'm not saying sugar, I'm saying shit.
SPEAKER_00Right. And that's being inauthentic in itself. So why you know why put the the lie out there? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, amazing. Well, thank you so much for all of that. Um, again, just so happy that you're here. So, next I want to you chose a few good men as our movie. You were probably not born when that movie came out, like I was born the year after. Yes, he's so to see all of those actors who I know as older, I'm like, wow, these guys are babies. I was a baby when it came out, literally. Um, yes, and I have to thank you for picking this movie too, because Chef's Kiss, we are Schmorgisborg here. Um, yay. So let's just kick it off with why you chose this movie, why it's one of your favorites. I want to hear that.
SPEAKER_02I think that uh they have like so many messages, but the acting was so powerful. Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise going at each other, it was like, and I I saw it for the first time. I can be your mother. Uh, I saw it for the first time back in Argentina. So it's like you were not even born, you were still swimming in your dustballs when I watched the movie, okay? Like, not that you were not born, you were not even conceived yet. But when I saw that interaction, that energy going back and forth, I was like, oh my god, and the message that you don't need a patch on your arm to have honor, right? But it along the way, so I watched it so many times that I know certain passages by heart, and I haven't watched it in a long time. So after um, we schedule for today, I I look online and it's I found out which I didn't know, it's loosely based on a true story. Oh, okay. So in the in real life, the uh the person didn't die, the person who was attacked didn't die, he survived, but there was a lot of like things that were similar. Like, okay, I didn't know because I love true stories because you're like, nah, this could not happen. And it's like, no, this happened in real life, right? Like, but I I think that the passion and the energy exchange between the actors, first of all, has like wonderful actors, but um the scene where Jack Nicholson, where Tom Cruise is confronting Jack Nicholson, was um recorded, was filmed several times. So he he did it, so and then the camera is on him, and then Tom Cruise reaction. And then the next take is the camera is on Jack Nicholson, and then the Mimoore's reaction, and then like so to capture the reaction from each person. I was like, that is brilliant. That is in in every time. I mean, like, you and I found mistakes in that movie because I watched it so many times. I'm like, oh my god, like you know, like that's a mistake, yes, because when you watch it so many times, it's like it becomes so clear, but there are so many components, and I never I admire the US military. Uh, I again like I moved to the United States at age 31, so I couldn't serve in the military, but that's something that I would have loved to do if I was my circumstances were different. But there is one part that the actors are asking, like, why do you um admire so much? And she says, Because I cannot sleep at night, because they said nothing is gonna happen to you, and I was like, Oh my god, like yes, right. Like, so I mean, there's so many nuggets, but I I have other movies like um eat pray love, I love it, but that isn't one that has survived through years. Like, I mean, it's been more than 30 years, yeah, absolutely amazing.
SPEAKER_00Couple things from that, yes. In the uh I just did an episode on Remember the Titans, and I said the same thing. I I didn't know how it would be to watch a movie based on a true story in regard to like the spiritual parallels and all of that. And I was like, actually, it's way more powerful because then it can't be a thing of well, that only happens in the movies. No, because it happened and they're telling, yeah, they're telling the story. Um, and I pulled out the quote that you just said went between um Galloway and Weinberg are their names. So he says, Why do you like them so much? And she says, because they stand on a wall and they say, Nothing's gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch. Yes, yeah, that's a goosebumps line.
SPEAKER_02Yes, they gave me chills when you were reading. I don't remember the um uh the the names of the I I remember the actors, but it's like everybody did such a great job when there uh Tom Cruise is asking, can I call you John? He's like, No, okay, right? Like, all right, yes, yeah, be like that, like you know, so okay, great.
SPEAKER_00So, okay, so to kick off some of my stuff um that I noticed. So, first I have to say, uh, it was probably two or three days ago now. I was out, I was driving, it was a beautiful day. Um, and I was like, you know what I haven't done in a while? I haven't done the thing where you can be like, I'm going to think of some sign and I'm gonna ask for it, and I'll see it in the next 48 hours. Okay. So I'm going through my head and I'm like, what do I want to? You know, it can't be something that you know you're gonna see. You know, it has to be something totally random that you would never see otherwise. And I ended up in my head for some reason on the Star of Bethlehem. I was like, okay, cool, that's what we'll go with, whatever we'll see. So then the next day I'm out with my family. We were picking up food and I drove past a ton of churches. And I was like, well, if I would see it anywhere, it would be on a church, right? So I'm looking at all the churches, but that's the other thing. You can't be looking for it, it just has to come. Right, it has to bump, right? Right. And I'm like, and I don't think I'm seeing this on any church, which is weird. So then I was like, do I even know what I'm looking for? What does the Star of Bethlehem actually look like? You know, whatever. So I I Googled it, you know, I'm popping up all of these pictures, and the general kind of consensus is you know, that so I'm like, okay, cool. So now I know what I'm looking for. Well, Zoma, I have to thank you because that same day, that night, I went to start the movie, Columbia Picture. That's a oh my god, that gave me chills. Yeah, yeah. So the Columbia Pictures, the picture of the woman holding up it's a torch, and I don't know if I've noticed in other movies if it lights up that way, but it's literally the star of Bethlehem. So I was like, and all I the only thing I had put on it was if I see this, it means I'm on the right path. So yeah, so not only did I see it, I saw it in the movie that you gave to be my first guest. So it's just incredible, right?
SPEAKER_02I love it, and the beginning of the movie has the light that is going around, too, right?
SPEAKER_00So I mean, like, wow. Wild, which then leads me into this idea of you know, the universe sending you the signs and you know, using different things to talk to you, whether it be like a conversation from a stranger, or you hear a certain music lyric, or you're watching a movie and someone says exactly, you know, words that speak to you in a different, in a different way. So I just brought up a couple examples of that. Um so when Lieutenant Caffey, Tom Cruise's character, is struggling to take this case to what he needs to do with it, to make it into something impactful and not just another plea bargain, not just another thing that he's gonna shove out of. The courtroom, he goes into a bar and he's just sitting there by himself. And in the background, there's another lawyer talking, and it's actually Aaron Sorkin, who is the um writer. He wrote the play that this was based on. He's also the writer of the show The West Wing. So very political, you know, government, all that stuff. But he's in the background talking in the bar, and he's saying exactly what Tom Cruise's character had been saying earlier about um, you know, threatening another lawyer with, I'm just gonna drown you in paperwork and you're gonna da-da-da-da-da. And it's essentially overhearing how kind of not not um, what's the word I'm looking for? Not impactful his job is. Like he is not living up to his full potential by just drowning people in paperwork. He's capable of so much more. So that's like, you know, he heard that out in the world and it helped him get on the right path. And then towards the end, when they're all talking and having their discussions behind the scenes and they're doing the montage, he always has his bat with him and it helps him think. And the night before they're going to get Jack Nicholson on the sand. So it's this huge pivot of we are looking so rough right now. Our our argument is not good, we are gonna lose. He goes, Where's my bat? I need my bat to think. She's like, Oh, I put it in the closet, you know, just this throwaway, whatever.
SPEAKER_02He's like, Don't ever put the back in the closet, like, yeah, you know, so upset.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And he goes in the closet, finds his bat, and that's where he hops up and sees the clothes. Exactly. And he's like, This is how I get him. This is where we so you know, it's just these like you know, sign synchronicities, frequencies, and so that's just a couple examples of that that I noticed.
SPEAKER_02And and I would like to add for for you know, uh, you were mentioning the kids like having to have everything figured out. One of the things uh that he had so much pressure on himself and why he didn't do trials because of the shot, he was in the shadow of his father, and he would not he was thinking so imposter syndrome, anyone, that he wouldn't amount to win the case because he was not his father. And Jack Nicholson's had met his father because his father had talked to them uh in the when they were in the military and what when they were in training, so that he acts like, oh, how is your dad? How is your father though? Oh, he passed away 11 years ago. Oh, I don't know, the asshole now, right? Like so, I mean, like this absolutely so and not not not at all, sir. Right, like in in, but the thing is that he's uh the the other attorney says, if I can choose between you and your father, I will choose you and in and twice on Sunday or whatever, right?
SPEAKER_00I wrote that one down too. I'd choose you any day of the week and twice on Sunday, right?
SPEAKER_02So, and it's like because and that is so illustrative of like when you I always say when you are in the picture, you cannot see the picture. So he didn't see how he was talking to Jack Nicholson in Cuba, he didn't, but everybody else saw that, yeah. And if anybody could get him, what's gonna be him, but he couldn't see it. And a lot of our young people are like, oh my god, I had to be the best that I can be. And where are the answers? And I don't have and all that extra pressure that you were talking about at the beginning, and it's like, you know what? You need to be yourself. Oh, I want to be the next Katie. Katie is taken, be the best Sulma that you can be. Absolutely, right? Like, so if we all strive to be the best version of ourselves, we can be, yeah, and that's another thing.
SPEAKER_00Demi Moore points out. She's like, Why did you ask him for the transfer order? You know, you could have gotten that anywhere else. Why did you ask him? Because you knew you knew something was wrong, you knew that you would get a reaction. This is you know, this is where your talent is. You can rile people up and you can make them talk in circles and get confused and you know, pull out that and find and find the truth, right?
SPEAKER_02Like, because the the the bottom line is like Jack Nicholson was not telling the truth, so yeah, to say the least, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, okay, cool. So the next thing um I wanted to talk. Do you know much about numerology at all? Yes, a little bit. Okay, so I go off of the book uh Numerology and the Divine Triangle by Faith Javine and Dusty Bunker. So just this idea that numbers are like the underlying math that has the universe functioning in a way you can use your birth date and the letters of your name to get your life blueprint, you know, what you're here to do, all of that kind of stuff. So when there are very important numbers in movies, I will do the numerology on them just to see you know what's up here. Oh shit, I love that. Okay. Yes.
SPEAKER_02So I'm sorry the director uh is no longer alive because he will he will have a chuckle out of this conversation.
SPEAKER_00Well, and this is why I say this too in the intro of all my um other episodes is I'm not saying that the creators of any of this stuff are at all conscious that you know, I don't know if they're sitting there with numerology books like putting this together. I'm just interpreting it on my end to see if anything cool lines up, and you know, look what we got. So the case number, as Kevin Bacon lists it, and they're like, we're presenting case, blah, blah, blah, blah. 411275 VR5. So I took those in their separate components. So the first set of numbers comes to 20. The um keywords for this in the book are turning points, decisions, awareness, adaptability, reconstruction, and the tarot card assigned to number 20 is judgment. Oh hell no, you didn't! Yes, what I know, isn't it amazing? The VR. So if you do the the numerology of what those, so V is four, R is nine, we get 13. Change, release, transformation. So the tarot card associated with that is death, but in tarot that means rebirth. Um, right, and then like a little quote that I pulled from the description 13 represents an initiate or one who is reborn through the mental powers of transmutation. So very much this whole journey that Tom Cruise is on, you know, having to realize what his smarts actually make him capable of, not just the paperwork and the numbers and the working the system, what he is actually able to do with that when it comes to change and impact. And then uh, so VR five. So five in tarot is the hero fant, which refers to our inner teacher, inner hearing, intuition. Release from all imitation comes to those who awaken their inner awareness. Keywords change, communication, new interests, and travel. He literally travels to a new and has to be introduced to that environment and like it's completely different from what he's used to. It's that's a whole thing, is like in the Navy, we're kind of chill, we're kind of whatever. But when you're a marine and you're on this base where you are literally risking your life every day, you know, he has so much adaptation that he has to do there. So then I add all those numbers together and we get the vibration of 38 over 11. So 38, the key words love, marriage, dreams, visions, rewards. It is a master number, which demands a great deal from you, but promises even greater awards. And then if we go down to 11, because you you add the numbers you always want to get to a single digit, but if it's a master number, which means 11, 22, 30, 33, you leave them as I'm I'm in number 11. Oh, nice, very nice. I love that. So the keywords for number 11, tests, legal dealings, inspiration, quick decisions, and the tarot card of 11 is justice, right? And this is all the case, this is just the case number, right, right. Oh my god, isn't that crazy?
SPEAKER_02That is amazing, yes.
SPEAKER_00So then I also because they kept referring to on the date of September 6th, on the date of September 6th, that's when um Willie was essentially murdered. Um, so the vibration of that is 36, and the keywords are obstacles, intuition, invention, leadership. This vibration may temporarily play temporarily place some burden on you. However, persevere with relentless determination. Wow. And then the other number that I got was um Lieutenant Galloway, so uh Demi Moore's character. When she's calling to get that witness protected, Markinson, the one who has like the key information, um, she says, here's my clearance number 411527273. And that comes up to 32 over five key words here. Um, good news, humor rewards victory. A quote, the magical number ruling people and nations. It gives protection, and such words as America, Christ, glory, power, and circle vibrate to it. And then the tarot card association, uh, six of wands depicts a horseman. He is a warrior for right, duty, and responsibility.
SPEAKER_02I don't get his speech lips very often, but I'm like, oh my god, isn't that crazy?
SPEAKER_00That is amazing. I know this is why I love doing like this. Is I don't even I couldn't break down my path of how I got to you here. I just you know ended up on my own spiritual awakening journey, and then I was watching movies and I was seeing all of this stuff, and I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute, hold on.
SPEAKER_02I need to talk to somebody about this.
SPEAKER_00I need to tell people to be on the lookout.
SPEAKER_02And you know what amazes me is that you mentioned you didn't you haven't watched the movie, which makes sense because she would not even align, but the the quote, uh you can't handle the truth, like that was blown because it was like a uh marketing for I think it was an insurance company or whatever. So it's like you will know certain things from that movie, but you haven't watched it. So I was like, oh my god, like somebody who hasn't watched it. I love that, right? Because I I I wanted to know your take from watching it the first time. Different from my perspective, I've been watching it for 32 years, right? Like, so it's like in and it's like, oh, but what? Like, oh my god, I love it.
SPEAKER_00I know, and that's what, and you know, it was a movie that was always on TV in the background, but it didn't mean anything to me. So why was I paying attention? And no, of course, with all of the the themes and the stakes it would in my life, it would have meant it would have meant nothing. So that's you know why I'm even doing this is because I'm like, go back and watch your favorite movies from you know, after living life a little bit, and you might see some things that you weren't ready to see yet, you know, you can't handle the truth, you won't get it until you're ready, right?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, okay.
SPEAKER_00And then one last thing before we start getting back specific to you. So with Markinson, so he's that guy that very much knew what Jack Nicholson was up to, but you know, disappeared and then he came back and then ultimately committed suicide. I kind of associated that with the idea of using your intuition, trusting your guides, talking to God, and like knowing the truth and the answers in your head and your heart, but you don't have proof. So you have to find a way to work with what's around you to get to prove it without being able to use that as your evidence. So I very much saw him as kind of like this spiritual guide. Like, I'm gonna show you and I'm gonna tell you what you are feeling and believing is true, but you have to use your skills and what you know and what you can bring to the table to show other people to make them see it too because ultimately at the end of the day, they did not have him and they thought that they lost when they lost him. So I just thought that that was like a really cool because I again I not having seen the movie when he got in that cab and he's like, I, you know, I've got all the news, I can tell you everything. I'm like, they're not gonna be able to use him for some reason. Like he's making too easy, yeah. He would make this too easy, so he's either gonna disappear again or get killed, or unfortunately, you know, he took his own life because he just couldn't deal with the guilt of it all. So I just thought that that was something cool too, right?
SPEAKER_02And I and I like uh I took a completely different approach to his character because the Marines are the few, the proud, the Marines, right? And that's their slogan, and he couldn't defend, and so and so he took the easy way out, which is to take your own life, and there is so much um stigma around suicide, and this, and I think that I truly believe a person who is suicidal, and I talk from from personal experience, having experienced suicidal thoughts, it's not necessarily that you want to die, it's that the pain is so huge that you cannot handle it. So it's not like necessarily you want to die, you just want the pain to stop. But we live in such a black and white um surface that it's like, oh, okay, so if I'm awake, I have pain. So, in order to not have pain, this is what I had to do, and that nobody, because he took his life with his own pistol, so it's not like he hung himself and Tom Cruise describes that uh in detail because it's like, oh my god, like we are thinking about like how I'm gonna no no, he just put his uniform and he took his life. And the the letter to to Santiago's parents saying, like, I'm sorry, I couldn't uh defend your son, right? Like, so the guilt was so overpowering that he he couldn't go one more day, and confronting Jack Nicholson, which he already tried to do early in the movie, and Jack Nicholson is like, no, if you have resentment because I advanced and you didn't, fuck you, basically. I'm paraphrasing, uh, fuck you. And it's like being in an stand, kind of like smearing the name of somebody who's gonna be appointed as secretary of defense, like your testimony is not gonna stand, right?
SPEAKER_00Right, yeah. And I I also have struggled with um mental health issues and suicidal ideation in the past, and I went heavy into that on my episode on the outsiders, and just I've never personally vibed with calling it selfish when you know, to be on this, and I like I had a debate with my best friend about it because she's never dealt with it specifically, but she has has has had friends whose like parents have chosen that, and she's seen the aftermath of what that leaves behind, and of course, absolutely, but like on my end of it, it's not that I'm doing it to hurt you, it's I'm in so much and I just don't know what so much pain, and I just don't know what to do. And you know, it yeah, if anyone wants to hear more about that episode on the outsiders, I go into way more detail.
SPEAKER_02Um and if you are having suicidal ideation, don't hesitate to reach out and talk to a professional.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. And I talk about that too. I say, listen, let's it's hard, but let's choose life. We're we're done with martyrdom, we're done with, you know, we think about, and this is a good since we're talking about the military, you know, we have these soldiers who are going to battle and they lose their lives, they sacrifice to save our country. You know, we're grateful, we thank you, but at the end of the day, they're still gone and it still sucks. So let's look at those who we've lost to suicide as those and the warriors of the battle against darkness. They're gone, it sucks. Let's not let it be in vain. Let's start doing better, choosing better, and you know, getting the help and making that change. So absolutely touch on that. Um, okay, great. So, specific to things that I read about your story, I want to hear more about the symbolism of the dragonfly, please.
SPEAKER_02So dragonflies um symbolize change that comes from the inside. So dragonflies they fly over the surface of the water and they eat all the bacteria so the light can come in. Oh uh, so is the is a change that comes from the inside. I don't change you. Like, I can barely fucking deal with my own life, let alone like it change yours. But what I do in my uh when I'm doing therapy or when I'm sharing uh my message is to help you find your own answers, right? Like, so the change comes from you. The one who's doing the work is you. Like, I I don't work harder than my clients, I cannot want this for you more than you want it for yourself. And you working in the uh Nike, I'm sure that you dealt with some parents that you're like, how the fuck did you make it this long in life, right? Like your kid is fucking dying, and you are right, because it's like it's I work with children uh during my internship, and it wasn't the children. I love children, but it wasn't the children, it was the parents that I have an issue with. Like, okay, here is the homework, but I don't have time. Bitch, what you want me to do with your kids for 50 minutes when you have your kids six days, 23 hours, and 10 minutes, right? Right, like it's like so it's you need to want to get better. So the change comes from the inside. So that's how dragonfly came about.
SPEAKER_00I love that. I love that. And I also from your site pulled directly, like they represent truth through illusion, you know, finding your own truth and all of that. And that made me think obviously of this whole thing, right? Like he's looking for the truth, you know, that's the whole point of the movie, you know, he is a dragonfly. Um, but the line I loved specifically that really kicked it all off. Um, when he comes in after he has decided, I'm gonna bring this to the courtroom, and he says, Why does a lieutenant junior grade with nine months experience and a track record for plea bargaining get assigned a murder case? Would it be so that it never sees the inside of a courtroom? And that's where we first see him putting all of these things that are under the surface that are hidden, that all of the bacteria he has to clear out of the way, if you will. Oh my god, yes, it's to the truth. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Doesn't it seem that he's like, oh, this is what a courtroom looks like.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I yeah, I had that written down too. Okay, it's like so. This is what a courtroom looks like. Yes, absolutely loved it. And then just because I have it right above, I absolutely love when he is um entering the plea, and he doesn't say we plead not guilty, he says they're not guilty. Oh should they yes, right, the word choice just so specific there. It's because earlier then he says too, he says, Um, it's not about what I believe is what I can prove. Yes, it doesn't matter what I believe, it only matters what I can prove. But then he comes back and he says, No, here's what I believe. They're not guilty. So
SPEAKER_02And that is a last minute this split decision because he was gonna he was gonna turn the case over to another attorney.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And at the last second, he's like, they are not guilty, which surprises everybody. And then he goes into action mode. Okay, you pick up the uh all the materials we need, you bring food, you bring what the fuck happened? Like exactly.
SPEAKER_00He's like, they're like, okay, where'd this come from? And it's almost like he's probably surprising himself, too. He's like, no, I got this, I know I do. Um, but then the uh symbolism of the dragonfly also I noticed a tattoo on Downey's arm, so the blonde one, the one who's kind of, you know Halloween Dawson, right? Yes, exactly. So he has a snake wrapped around a sword tattooed on his arm. So I just kind of looked up, you know, what's the what's the spiritual symbolism of this? Um, balance between wisdom and healing in reference to the snake and strength and power, often representing a guardian spirit transformation and the triumph of good over evil. And it kind of just goes into like detail, but yeah, so I just thought that was really cool too. And then also because we're on it, I'm looking at your necklaces and I see your dragonfly. And I also see that you have a Z for your name. So the Z in numerology, um, the vibration is the number eight, and in tarot, uh, the card for that is strength. Wow. Thought that was really cool too. All right, awesome. So the next big thing I have. So you are a social worker. Is that the official?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so I'm a licensed clinical social worker.
SPEAKER_00Okay, got it. So counseling and all of that. They use that word so much. Obviously, they're talking about being a lawyer and like I want to be your counsel, I'm the counselor. So I was looking into shit, okay. Right, right.
SPEAKER_02I want to be living in Katie's mind, like make room for me. I oh my god, like this is awesome.
SPEAKER_00I don't know, it's a lot sometimes. I overwhelm myself. Um, so this whole thing where the line is we're a little weak on motive. Um, so when they're talking about how they're gonna go in with the argument right away, he said, can't really look at motive. I want to focus on intent. So I was like, okay, I want to know the difference between these words so I can understand like why we can't use motive. Because I had just used motive in a previous episode about if we can find our motive for this lifetime, it'd be a lot easier to figure out why we've been through what we've been through so that we can, you know, focus up and get on the right track. So I'm just gonna read you the Google AI summary of the difference between the two. So intent is the conscious, deliberate aim to commit a specific act, while motive is the underlying reason, desire, or psychological drive that prompts that action. Intent is what someone does, which is a legal requirement for guilt. Whereas motive is why they did it. In law, intent is essential for conviction, while motive is generally not, though it can support a case. Intent is the purposeful conscious decision to bring about a result. Motive is the cause, reason, or emotion that induces someone to act. Intent is generally a required element to prove a crime. Motive is not required for conviction, but it is often relevant evidence to help prove intent. Intent focuses on the desired consequence, motive focuses on the underlying reason. So, an example, a person intends to take a gun and fire it to steal money because they are in debt motive. So the way that this worked in my head, and it's interesting because I usually my episodes I type it all out and I just kind of like read it because as you're seeing, my head is like so, in relation to this idea of counseling, when we talk about therapy, when we talk about social work, the point is to get to the motive, to get to the underlying why do you make these choices? What is causing you to go down this certain path and make that choice at the end of the day? Where did this all stem from? And in the movie, and you know, any law and order, you know, SVU was one of my favorite shows, any of these procedural cop shows that include the law side of things. It's like we can have the motive, but that's not going to be enough to convict. We need the proof, the proof, the proof, the intent, all of these ABCDs, the law, the blah blah blah. But what he's doing is finding a way to bring the motive in, to show everyone the underlying why it happened. Like that is what he has to prove. So I see this as kind of the parallel, you know, where it might on that subconscious level mean so much to you because that is what you do. You help people get to that root cause because that's where the answer is, that's what needs to be weeded out and taken care of.
SPEAKER_02Wow, that is so fucking profound. Yes. So, uh, in in reference to that, I I want to get this out of my head because it's gonna be be bugging me, but then I I go into what you said. Right before that argument, he says, My dad always said that people want somebody to blame. Something happened that shouldn't have happened. Santiago is that they want to find somebody to blame, so it's like, how can we direct them into blaming the the right people rather than these two poor people that got caught in in the whole thing? So there is a whole um aspect of of psychologists called logotherapy, and it was written by Victor Frankl, who was uh in a concentration camp, and he found his wife was also taken, and his why he kept going was to reunite with his wife. Well, spoiler alert, his wife was killed, but he developed all this um therapy which is called logotherapy. Like if you find your why, you're gonna find a how, right? So that comes back to your passion. I think that if if you find out what your passion is, you're gonna find a way. If you don't know what that is, you're gonna find an excuse. I'm too old. I don't like listen, you cannot tell me that English is not even my first language. So, what is your fucking excuse for not going to school? Just tell me that you're not inspired or you don't have the discipline because motivation, oh my god, I have a whole fucking single motive. Motivation is so fucking overrated. Motivation is a myth. If we've been doing shit we were not motivated to do our entire lives. When you cut your daughter, you didn't tell her, like, sorry, I'm not motivated to feed you. You fucking you were in fucking pain, you couldn't pee, and you were feeding the baby, you were not fucking motivated to do it, right? So the secret to success is not motivation, it's discipline. Because discipline is what allows you to show up when you are not motivated to show up. So once we found the why, because I want to get better, because I want to feel better, because I want to fulfill my passion, whatever, then the question about why something happened, I always encourage my clients to change the why to what am I learning from this? Because even knowing when something happens to us, and we're like, why did that happen? Even knowing why that happened is not going to make you feel better. But changing the question from why to what am I learning from this? Why is kind of like the roots of the victim mentality. When I was first diagnosed with breast cancer, I was like, why me? And then I started thinking, I don't have children of my own, but we will do anything for our child, right? So I don't have children, but I had my mom was alive at that time. I have a mom, I have a sister, I have girlfriends. And then I started asking, like, if it wasn't me, would I have preferred that it was one of them who had the diagnosis? And the answer is no. So the question changed from why me to why not me? And now I have a decision to make. I can sit in the corner and cry until I'm dead, or I stand up and fight. Well, spoiler alert, I chose the latter, right? Like, so in going back to therpey, it's like we spend so much time asking why this, why that? It's like, what the fuck did you learn from this? Why did you go into nursing? What did I learn from going into nursing? Oh, the nursing is not for me. However, a lot of the shit that you learn in the school is helping you with your daughter to not fucking freak out when she has a fever and you're like, oh, yeah, no, I see like, no, yeah, she has a fever for fucking two weeks, take her to the doctor. But like, yes, yes, right? So it's like all that knowledge. Like, I always say, if if social work didn't work out for me, I can always go back to accounting. Social work didn't take my brain and re and erase all my accounting knowledge, it added, it expanded my brain. So if it didn't work out, I can always go back to accounting, right? Like, so not getting so caught up into the details, but what am I learning from that? So I can find happiness and I can find compassion. Compassion is not complete if it doesn't include ourselves. We are our worst enemies. Like my expectations of myself are over here, and my expectations of everybody else are down here. Bitch, why? My expectations of myself aren't realistic. I will never achieve those. But if you were going through the same shit, I'll be like, oh Katie, come on, like this is right, no, but Sunman needs to fucking overcome all that and and come on top, like, excuse me, right? Like, so that's what I help my clients with to discover their why, but then not to get caught up in the bigger why, but not to get cut up into the little whys.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And you said um some words that stuck out to me. You said passion, and you said excuse, and that pointed me to a couple other lines that I pointed. So it's when um when Tom comes back and he's drunk, and yet again, the me is trying to get him like back on track, like come back, and he says, Your passion is compelling, it's also useless. And she eventually says, You're going to use what happened today as a to give up. So, yes, it's like if you continue to ask why me, why me? The excuses will be there. They are gladly waiting for you to find something or someone to blame. But you know, the answers are also there as well, if you're just willing to ask the right why, but you're not moving forward, right?
SPEAKER_02Like, so it's like I can get stuck into the why did this happen to me. It's like, okay, again, why not? But also, it's like, okay, if I keep asking the same question and I'm not getting if I'm not moving, if I'm not taking action, maybe I'm asking the wrong question.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely 100%. Okay, and then next, so I was thinking of this idea. Um, if you've ever heard the term of the cycle breakers, yes, yeah. So just you know, anyone in like a generational line or someone just in your own family where you're breaking a cycle, there's some kind of trauma, there's you know, abuse, or there's certain ways that you treat someone or whatever, and it's that person who's gonna decide to switch it up, and that's exactly what Tom is in this movie, right? Like he has that stuff from his dad, and his dad is the one who pushed him to make this lawyer thing happen, but ultimately he's the one who has to decide to do it differently. So I'm wondering if there's just like, is there a common thread when you see people who are brave enough to choose therapy, to choose to talk to somebody about everything and making this change? Is there a common theme of like they're breaking cycles and they are choosing to do it differently from what they've been taught and shown and you know, boxed into?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. So people who go to therapy are in therapy for the people who don't go who don't go to therapy, right? Yeah, I love that. That's amazing. Like, you know, maybe like because there is a lot of cultural components, right? Especially in the Hispanic culture, like, oh, we don't talk to strangers about it, like you know, we talk to Abuelita, abuelita is the original one that created the trauma, like abuelita is the one that needs to be in therapy. That's why I'm in fucking therapy, right? Like, so it's like the people who are, and and I'm a cycle breaker because like I left Argentina at 31 because I didn't see a future for me in the country, and I had nothing at that time. I was still living with my mom, I didn't have a job, I didn't have a partner, I didn't have a car, I didn't have money, and I was like, okay, when you have nothing, you have nothing to lose. So going to America was an adventure. Again, if it didn't work out, I will go back to Argentina, but at least I will have no regret. Oh, what if I would have gone to the United States, right? So when I came to Panama, it was like, okay, worst case scenario, it doesn't work out. I live six months by the beach. Okay, I take that as a fucking win. Like, you know what I mean? Like so, so the people who break the mold and they are so brave to ask for help from a professional, they are in their own way breaking the cycles because I was many years ago, I was in an abusive relationship and I didn't know I was being abused, right? And I consider myself an educated person and a smart person, but that's why I was suicidal. And my therapist said, and I'm like, I don't know why I'm suicidal. She's like, You are being abused, and I'm like, No, you are mistaken, he doesn't touch me because to me, abuse was physical abuse. I beat the shit out of you and I sent you to the hospital, right? So learning, and she said, because I wanted him to change, right? And she said, Well, you cannot change him, but if you change yourself, the relationship cannot be the same. So for anybody listening, just by you going to therapy, the relationships cannot stay the same. By me moving out of the country, I show my family that Argentina is not the only way of doing it. And I'm proud to say that my nephew followed my steps, right? Because uh it's like, oh my god, you know, like I I'm I'm showing you that there is a different path. I'm not saying that you should take it. I'm showing you options. Don't fucking take it, but then don't complain about your situation, right? Uh because there are other options and you are choosing not to take them. So it's like, okay, decisions come with consequences, and we need to be accountable for the decisions that we make. So when you are stepping into you, you go to therapy and you start learning new shit, so you start behaving differently. It's so you be you communicate better, you become more assertive. Like people in your life are not gonna fucking like it because you're the one rocking the boat. Why the fuck do you have to go learn? Now you are showing me that I'm stuck in my ways, but don't you want to be better? No, I don't, and you are you're fucking putting in my face, like you know. So it's like I think we need to be very patient, just as children are so patient with ourselves when they explain over and over what the fucking drawing is, because we have no fucking idea, and they are showing you the elephant, and in right, like the little prince is a is a great example. That book is so uh you can read it in in one afternoon, but it's like it has so much wisdom because it has the hat, everybody sees a hat, but it's not a hat, it's a snake that ate an elephant. So he needed to uh draw the inside of the hat so people will not confuse it with a hat, and it's like children are so patient with ourselves because we don't know what the fuck we're looking at, and they keep explaining, right? And it's like, oh, and I think that's what we do to our environment when we go to therapy. We are showing them that it can, that it's a different way, and I don't like that because, like, let me be like, okay, so you want to be better, good, but don't fucking come and rock my boat, right? Like, so it's like then we start questioning Awelita, and Awelita doesn't like that, right? Because it's like, well, we always done it like that, yeah. But fucking look around, that doesn't mean that it's healthy because you always done it like that, right? So I think that when we found other ways, we need to be very patient with the people around us and not be quick to judge that oh, why don't you want to get better when it might have taken you this long to want it to get better? So now it's kind of like when you start going to the gym and you feel better, and then you want everybody to join the gym. Bitch, like you were not exercising up until two months ago. Leave me the fuck alone, right? Now the gym is the best invention. While there are other people who've been in the gym for years, and they share, like, you know, when I exercise, it helps me feel better, and I have more energy. I never fucking done it, so I'm just going for what other people say, but it's like then it might inspire me to go to the gym, and that's what I tell people who want once they start therapy and they want everybody to go to therapy. Listen, you keep sharing with your family or your friends how therapy is helping you, you don't tell anybody what to do because you know my mom, I don't I don't want you to tell me what to do, but it's kind of like, and I use that example. I go, you need to go to the gym. Okay, let's go together. No, no, I don't go to the gym, you need to go to the gym. Like, bitch, start going to the gym and then share how going to the gym is helping you, and that might inspire me to start going to the gym. So you are going to therapy, share with people what you are learning, but don't get so offended when they cannot take it, right? Because it's like, okay, this is your path, this is your lesson to learn. No, Katie needs to go to therapy. Katie is fucking fine in her cloud 9 and in her uh like denial stage. And who the fuck am I to wake up Katie and make her go to therapy? Like when people go to therapy, and that happens a lot in couples therapy. It usually is one partner who is bringing the other partner to therapy, and that's why I don't do couples therapy again, because like you need to want it, and it's like, well, I'm here because. She said, uh, you know, if I don't come to therapy, she's gonna divorce me. That's not a reason to go to therapy, right? So it's like, do you want to feel better? Do you and then once you start taking care of you, you become a better person and a better mom and a better daughter and a better friend and a better everything because you are taking care of you. So the best thing you can do for your children is to take care of you.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and that was kind of the kick in my pants. I always was very much like, I know I'm giving good advice, so why aren't you listening to me? And it will, it caught it caused a lot of resentment, and you know, and that was a big thing for me too, moving to California. It's not moving countries by any means, but you know, showing my entire family who's lived in the same small town our entire life, like it can it can be different. And then I had my daughter and you know, postpartum depression, like that's its whole own whatever, but very much having to recognize where I was struggling, where I was adding to the toxicity, forgiving myself, forgiving them, and having to know that it wasn't my job to make it happen for them. And then I come home and I, you know, start going through this journey, and I'm telling them they're seeing the changes in me, and I'm telling them the changes, and it's still not enough to make them want to do it. They'll be like, Well, how have you lost so much weight? What are you starving yourself? And you know, it's like it's judgy, and it's I'm like, no, here's what I'm doing, and you know that that would help you too, but they just don't want so then it becomes the thing of like then you learn how to set the boundaries because you can't, you know, they need to want to help themselves, but you also can't continue to be brought down, and then the so you have the boundaries with the people you know that you have to that are your family, whatever, but then those other toxic relationships will naturally fall away because people are intimidated by what you are showing them that they're still struggling with.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, and that is perfectly okay to love people from the distance. I can love you, I don't have to share my energy with you. Yes, right, so it's like okay, but don't underestimate the power of planting a seed. When you plant the seed, you don't see the fact the flower doesn't sprout immediately, right? But that doesn't mean that nothing is happening, and maybe somebody will be like, oh, you know what? I think I'm ready, like I'm not feeling my greatest. I think I'm gonna ask Katie again, like how did she lose the weight? And in in their own time, you did it when you did it, but I'm not ready. But knowing you, I know I can potentially go to you and ask you, like, hey, can you can you remind me? Can you want me through how you did it? Because I think I'm ready now.
SPEAKER_00And I do, I have the one best friend who she's uh coming down from a divorce where you know she was emotionally stepped out on all of that stuff, and it is very much the I'm uh having to help her recognize the planting of the seed because it'll be like she's like, I don't know what to do, I don't know what I need to change. And I'm like, you already are. You're just you know, when you're in the day-to-day of it and the other people around you aren't changing and they're still trying to bring you down, it's hard to see the fruits of those plants, but you know, it's it's sprouting, it's coming up, it's not fully bloomed, but it's very much like showing her like, look at what we've already improved, look what has already changed. I know you're not where you want to be, and and she's very much in therapy and has a very good therapist who helps her as well, but you know, that guidance of like we are so instant gratification, we're obsessed with it, right?
SPEAKER_02So I went to the gym. Why didn't I lose 20 pounds? I was in the gym for 20 minutes, right? So, like the way I illustrated to my clients is like you want to be here and you are here, but you started down here. As far as you continue to move, it doesn't matter how fast you go, I know you're gonna make it to the top because you kept moving. So as far as your friend is not paralyzed, she keeps moving. Eventually, she's gonna get there, but I but I want to already be there. Okay, but good things take time, and once you get there, you're gonna be like, Oh, I needed to go through all this in order to learn the lesson. And I I think that we go through challenges, so the the fruit tree, the apple tree, the apple is not for the tree, it's for the people who pass us by. Our challenges, I don't think they're for us, they're for us to process them, but then to share our experience so we can inspire others.
SPEAKER_00Yes, right. That's amazing. I love that metaphor.
SPEAKER_02So it's like for your friend, it's like, well, why am I going? You don't know what you don't know yet, because you're still in the picture, but eventually she might write a book, or she might go on a podcast, or she might be an inspirational speaker, whatever it might be, however, she she chooses to. She might speak at the fucking women's church group, right? Like, and because we don't know what we don't know, like people don't know the shit that we've been through until we share it. So it's like, oh, they see your success, or like it didn't happen. My ability to work from overseas, from Panama in this case, right now, it started back in 2007 when I took my first three credits of English 101. It didn't happen yesterday. Amazon didn't happen overnight. But the motherfucker was coming home, getting in his garage and shipping books. Well, I don't want to do that. Well, then you're not gonna be Jeff Vesos, right? Like I right, like it did because oh well, he's a billionaire, whatever. It didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen alone, he didn't do it alone either, right? Like, so it's like be patient with the process, but you have to put in whatever is like okay, so he was shipping books, like the last thing I want to do after a whole day of working is go in my garage and ship books. But if that is what I needed to do, so the last thing I wanted to do was study for fucking whatever anthropology after working uh eight hours in accounting, but that's what I needed to do in order to graduate. Anthropology was as important as social work because without anthropology, I wouldn't graduate, right? So it's like okay, the sacrifices we make today, and again, the discipline to not skip anthropology, right? Because that was part of the fucking I don't remember, I was thinking 62 credits in order to graduate with my bachelor's. I don't like anthropology, it doesn't matter, you fucking need the three credits, so it's like, well, you know what, I don't like it, let me get it over with, so I can focus on the one that I like, right? Like, so it's like in three credits at I graduated three credits at a time, and how I got those three credits was one fucking test at a time or one fucking paper at a time. So when oh well, like you can work from home and you live by the beach. Yeah, that didn't happen overnight.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that makes me think of I just substituted a couple Fridays ago, and it was this uh they do co-teachers now, so it's like they'll take half of the I don't know, it they'll like they'll be in the same room, but if it gets to be too much, they split crap classrooms and teach the same thing. I don't know, it's weird. It it was not a thing when I was there. Yeah, I don't know. So I was subbing for a math class, and I obviously am not teaching math, so I was just in the room watching her do it, and it was um algebra, the quadratic formula. And every single class, all of these kids were, why do I need this? I don't need this, that I'm never gonna need this in my life, blah blah blah blah blah. And she wasn't really like giving them anything to like get them back on track. So in one of the classes, I was eventually like, I'm like, guys, even if the job you're envisioning doesn't require this, and but you still need to go to college, you have to do prereqs. You're gonna have to do these kinds of classes just to write, like you said, get those credits that you need to eventually, you know.
SPEAKER_02So and there is the argument, we fucking use math all the time because math is what teaches you critical thinking. It's like, how the fuck do you break down a problem into different steps? You learned that in math when you went in school.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Yep. Uh, and I wanted to go back to you saying when you moved you had nothing, so you had nothing to lose. And that makes me think of the moment when he thinks Jack Nicholson has him. He thinks I can't push him to the breaking point that I thought that I can, and he's deciding, or can I? And he's like looking around at all of the people who are essentially saying, no, don't push it, don't go further. But it's like he's thinking about what do I have to lose, and ultimately nothing. If he just goes back to this job where he's unfulfilled and he's not using what he is fully capable of to make difference and make change that's gonna ripple out, plant that seed, that's the nothing to lose point. So I'm gonna go forth because if I didn't try, I'm gonna regret that more than yeah. So that's that, and I guess my kind of last question is how do you feel about I know, I know. I'm like, wow, how do you feel about the ending?
SPEAKER_02They got off on the murder charges and all of that, but they still get dishonorably discharged, which is why they so I think that it's very telling when when the the guy is like, I don't understand. We did we did nothing wrong. And Dawson said, We should have fought for Willie, right? And it's like that realization that you didn't know at the time you were following orders, we follow orders or people die, which is a quote that is like, right? We follow orders or people die, but they didn't know. I don't think that Dawson was capable of understanding that he could break that order, right? And at the end, he realizes like, oh wow, and they didn't have intent to kill, right? But and that's what happens when the doctor is saying, like, no, he couldn't die because of that that the rag needs to be poisoned because he missed the signs to not allow Willie Santiago to be just like all those things, but at the end, I think that Dawson realization, and that's when Tom Cruise says you don't need a patch on your arm to have honor, right? How beautiful that learning experience is for him, not so much for for the other one, but for him to be like, we should have fought for Willie, and we didn't. And it's like, and then I want to fucking cry. No, you did, that's okay, you didn't know better, right? Like, I want to give him a hug. But the the thing is that it's like again, when we are in the picture, we cannot see the picture, so I think he was taking it all in to do better moving forward, and that is uh I think the great teaching in the movie that um we need to fight until the end for what we believe in, but when you know better, you do better. A lot of times, we're like, Oh, why did I go into nursing or why did I go to California? Because at the fucking time you were going to nursing, that was the best decision with the information that you had at the time. If you would have known what you knew after being six months in the unit, you probably wouldn't have done it. But how are you being fair to yourself, judging you with all the information you have right now, why you made that decision this many years ago, right? So it's like, and I think that that's why we need to be passionate about what we do, because I have my own podcast, and it's like I have my own podcast because I want to share my message, and it's like if one person feels inspired, yay, because I'm doing the podcast because I fucking enjoy doing the podcast, right? So it's like, yes, I wish that it more it will reach more people and all that, but I think that if I stop doing the podcast, then it will never happen. Because for sure I'm not gonna fucking reach anybody, but if I continue to do it and I continue to be true to myself and I continue to share, like sometimes I share about mental health, and sometimes I share about what the fuck is going on in schoolman's life, and it's like you know, as far as I I'm keeping it real, that's that's what is connecting with people, right? So it's like as far as I don't lose my essence, then eventually it might happen, right? The more people are gonna listen to the podcast, but if I give up because it didn't happen yet, it's like then it will never happen, that's for sure, right? So let's not get so focused on the destination, but come back to the journey and enjoy that again. Like trying um trying acting might help you be like more yourself in front of the mic because you learn a lot of techniques that maybe other people don't have, and being in touch with death, and especially with babies who are sick, gives you a different perspective in life. So you have a lot more wisdom than a lot of people your age. Shame on you for being so young, by the way. But like you might have a lot, you have a lot more wisdom than a lot of people your age because you've been around shit that other people had not been around. I cannot even imagine being in the intensive unit for a baby, right? In in or seeing babies past or whatever it might be, because we have like this idea that oh, like I always tell, you know, I I specialize in anxiety, depression, and trauma. So a lot of people are so anxiety is about trying to control the future, which is impossible because the future is not even here. Oh, what's gonna happen next week? You might fucking die tonight. Don't worry about next week because you're not gonna make it. And I tell my clients this, and they're like, Well, if you put it like that, but nobody has tomorrow guaranteed. So, one of the biggest regrets when somebody passes is I didn't spend that much time, or I didn't say I love you enough, or whatever. Fucking learn from that and then start telling people who you love that are alive right now in your life, I love you, because you don't know if you're gonna be here tomorrow. So instead of crying, because I didn't tell mom how much I love her when I had her, which you cannot go back and change that, but you can look at that and learn and live every moment as if it's gonna be the last, because you don't know if you're gonna be here tomorrow. So start telling the people in your life, I love you. You know what? I really appreciate that, whatever it might be. So then you have no regrets when that person passes or when you pass, right? So it's like we again we're either happy or we are learning something. As far as we continue to enjoy, we learn how to enjoy the journey, then we're gonna get to the destination whenever the fuck we get to the destination. It it truly doesn't matter because then you get to destination and you're like, okay, now what? Like, yeah, the next destination, right? So it's like, but if we come back to the present moment, we come back to the journey and we show up authentically, we are gonna find our tribe. So if I'm like, okay, and then after two months, I'm like, bitch, what the fuck? You're gonna be like, what the fuck happened? Because I've been building something that is not real. Now, if you have a problem with me casting, you know it from the beginning, so you choose not to develop that relationship, and I think that's what happens a lot in romantic relationships. We are in our in our best behaviors, we don't fart, we don't shit, we don't, and then life kicks in because it's unrealistic to, and especially for this happens, and I'm over-generalizing, but this happens a lot with women, like we don't fart and we don't shit. Excuse me, like that is part of if I have to grow you.
SPEAKER_00No, I have to go.
SPEAKER_02Like, bitch, like if I don't every day, like I have issues, you know what I mean? Like, so it's like we are not showing up as our authentic selves, and then we cannot keep it up in the long run, and that's when shit starts hitting the fan. Because I've been keeping this facade, but that's not who I am. I think that being who you are is harder in the moment, but you have a long-term uh benefit to that versus the opposite, where it's like, oh, everything is fine, but then I'm and then eventually I'm afraid to show you my my true colors, and then I'm unhappy, right? That's that happens a lot with long-term marriages when they divorce, and and then the guy says, and I and I never wanted to sleep on the right side of the bed. Like, motherfucker, like, why the fuck did you didn't you say that 20 years ago?
SPEAKER_00Right, it's like the more into the illusion, the more intricate it's gonna get, and then the harder it's gonna crack and fall when things start coming to light, when the truth starts coming to light, like this movie. His life, he had it right up until Tom decided, nope, I'm gonna keep pushing. He was content, he was good, he was proud of what he had done. He's like, My life is exactly where I want it to be. And it came down like that. And and then uh, what does he say to him? Uh, like, I don't know, something something I'm gonna piss in your skull in front of everyone who he originally had had the respect of because of those badges, because of those pins. You just got called out, and now you're showing everyone your true color, right?
SPEAKER_02And he shows you how narcissists, right? Because he believed he was God, so he wanted, and that's it. That's what they were saying. Like, he wants to say that he owned the co-red, right? Like, so it's like you you have to take him there, and eventually he is like, you're fucking questioning me, like who the fuck are you to question me? So I'm gonna show you, and that is his demise, but it's like, yes, when we are dealing with narcissistic people with people with narcissistic tendencies, it's like eventually you just had to let them be, because eventually they are gonna crash and they're gonna crash, making a lot of noise. So it's like as far as you keep being true to yourself and and going back to the initial thing about uh young. People not having everything figured out, it's okay that if you say I don't know, your parents might not like it, your peers might not like oh, like you know, whatever, but I'd rather you be true to yourself and continue to search for what it is that you want to do than to go with it with the flow and then be unhappy. And I will say, don't be afraid to take risks. Again, if you go for a career that then it doesn't pan out for you, how the fuck would you know if you didn't go for it? Trouble, if you have the opportunity, like being exposed to different cultures, like I always say, if a poor people, a poor person in Argentina is different than a poor person in America, and it's so hard to explain because if you didn't live there, I I don't know how to explain it. I don't, but because I live in Argentina and I live in the well, and now I live in Panama, so it's like it's like being exposed to different. I sort of was patient until I fucking moved to Panama. Panama time is a is a complete different level of patience, like, and I was like, I thought I was patient, like okay, I'm corrected, like, you know, so it's like an urgency in the states is different than an urgency, an urgent matter in Panama. And any expat who lives here, because I'm like, I didn't have hot water and I have to shower, and then like and they fix it in three days, you're lucky. And I'm and I'm fucking complaining because for three days, right? I showered with you know, I didn't have hot water. So it's like it isn't it truly is a first world problem, but having lived, so my my nephew, whom I adore immensely, he said, You are too American to live anywhere else, and he's absolutely right. Like, you know, like so I thought that because I spoke the language, no, no, the culture is completely different than that, even in the one in Argentina. So it's like I had I'm I'm adjusting to this different culture because half of my life I live in America, so I'm more uh from you know, I'm more American than Argentinian. I had to get back to my Argentinian roots to to like kind of like fit in here, and it's like, what the fuck? You know, I'm 60, like I but the thing is that I would have never known that if I didn't do it, and I didn't have the answers because a lot of times we want to know everything before we do it. No, life doesn't work that way. I came with five pieces of luggage, and I had to leave one because that's the maximum the airline. I reduced 60 years to six pieces of luggage, and one is still in the United States, and it's like it was a process that helped me grow so much because I had a three-bedroom, two-bathroom home when I was living in America. Well, put that in fucking six pieces of luggage. I dare you, you know what I mean. So I had to prioritize and I have to I found I was going through shit in my garage and I found letters that my mom wrote me like happy 40th birthday. That's 20 years ago, and she passed away like probably 10 10 years later. So I will never have that again. But at the time, I was like, Oh, that's that's a letter from my mom. Now it's like, oh my god, there's a letter from my mom, like fucking crying, right? So it's like we learn how to prioritize and value things differently as as we go through shit in our lives, but don't you didn't have the answers before, and you overcame challenges, you found the answers as you were going through them. So it's like you don't need all the answers, you need the courage to go for it because it is your dream, and your dream is not Katie's dream, it's not Sulma's dream, so it might not make sense to Katie and Sulma. Don't fucking worry about it, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it's just so much more peaceful on the daily to not need to have it figured. That's what I found. It's just made, and then, like what we mentioned earlier, then you're just able to love easier, you're just able to, you know, live in each moment, and then you get to be the example, and you and so when you let go of your outcome, then also it's naturally kind of like I don't need this outcome for you. I'm just gonna be the example if you take it, you take it. If not, I'm gonna love what we do have or don't, you know, and then that's where the boundary, you know, it all ties together.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, and don't believe social media. No, oh my gosh, no, right now, because you take fucking 20 pictures to publish one. And how do you think that the other people do it?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Oh, Sulma is so perfect, which Sulma is not. I'm not gonna put the picture that I'm like that, I'm gonna put the picture that has a good lighting and that I'm smiling, and I'm not, I don't my eyes are not closed. So let's not believe social media. I I'm so glad I didn't grow up with social media because I think and I feel for the kids right now and for the young people because it's like social media is so unrealistic. Yeah, she ain't gonna fucking put the picture that you know it's gonna put the best picture. So that is true. So don't believe social media, and just look at what you do when you are posted on social media. You you go through fucking hundreds of pictures and you select one. So why do you think that the other person is not doing that?
SPEAKER_00Right. So don't believe that it's all tailored. It's yeah, when I when I sub, I every class I go in, I'm like, listen, I learned very quickly that asking you guys to stay off of your phones and off of social media is just impossible. So I just have a challenge for you. If you find yourself in a comparison mindset, and I explained that a little bit, you know, I just swipe on to literally anything else. Something that brings you actual joy, something that does not make you question everything that you are. You are exactly where you are supposed to be, you are exactly who you are supposed to be. If you're questioning that, find something else. I yeah, I'm not gonna tell you to get off your phone because it just doesn't work. Then they're just sneaking it, they're hiding it from me, and then I have to, you know, get mean about it. I'm not trying to do that. That's not why I go there. So just try to redirect and yeah, because perfect social media is something, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_02Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Okay, just one last thing I wanted to say before we wrap up. Um, because you know, I like this. This is why I wanted to start bringing people on and talking about it. Because now I'm seeing the ending a little differently for me. Where as I would be sad that they were dishonorably discharged and we didn't get what we wanted in the first place. Now I can instead go down the path of what's Dawson gonna do with this? Right, what what seed was just planted, and how is he now gonna go make change? And how is he coming out of this stronger? I think that's so much more fun than just being like, I'm here to serve.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_02I love it, I absolutely love it, but that's exactly what Tom Cruise says to him in the movie, you know. Maybe he went on to be a motivational speaker, like who knows?
SPEAKER_00Like, you know, sure who's he went we know he went on to help somebody, anybody, people, and that's that's just beautiful in itself. So, yeah, that's everything on my end. Um, I cannot thank you enough. This has been I knew it was gonna be phenomenal, but for the you know, to be on the other end of it now and be like, yeah, we did it.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, it's been a lot of fun. I knew it was gonna be a lot of fun. I absolutely adore the way that you you took this. Like, this is my first experience doing it with a movie, and I absolutely love it. You're gonna be so successful. This is amazing. I know Rob Rainer is like listening to us right now, and he's like, look up on the fucking numbers, the case number and the clearance number. I never thought of that, or maybe they did and they didn't tell anybody, right? Right. But I would like to um to close with this. If for anybody listening, if you woke up today, that means that your mission in life is not complete. Keep putting one foot in front of the other, and you're gonna come on the other side of the challenge you're currently facing. Katie, thank you so much for having me. I wish you all the success in the world. I know you're gonna have it. This is amazing. You are amazing.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much, and thank you, um, friends, for joining us too. Please, I know you were inspired by Swoma today. So check out her stuff. Instagram, the swearing therapist, website dragonfly therapieservices.net, and her own podcast, keeping it real with Swilma, the Swearing Therapist.
SPEAKER_02Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day in Panama down there. Tell the ocean I said hi because I do miss it.
SPEAKER_02Will do.
SPEAKER_00All right, goodbye. Thank you so much.