Episode 13: The Things We Lose

Episode 13: The Things We Lose

Grief isn't just about death. 

It can live in divorce papers.

In hospital waiting rooms.

In the loss of a body part.

In futures that never happen.

This week, my friend Gemma joins me to talk about grieving something we rarely discuss: losing part of your body after breast cancer.

It's raw, honest, sometimes funny, and a reminder that grief doesn't need permission to exist.

If you've ever wondered whether your loss 'counts', this episode is for you ☕️🖤

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hello and welcome back to the Early Morning Coffee Club, the podcast where grief is intense, humour is finally ground, and strength sneaks up on you like a double shot. I'm gonna apologize straight away. If you can't already hear, I'm full of cold. I'm very snotty, very bunged up, and I sound like Barry White, so apologies, but I really want to record this podcast. It's a very important episode. Today we're talking about a slightly different kind of grief. Grief is often thought of as something that we feel when we lose a person. But what about when we lose something else? Something deeply part of our identity or our body or a future we imagined for ourselves. That's what we're exploring today. So a few months after Alex passed away, I actually received a message from an old work colleague. It started politely enough. He said that he was really sorry to hear about my loss and mentioned that he'd experienced his own grief this past year. Oh my god, someone has died, I thought. My heart tightened. I didn't hesitate, and I immediately launched into a full recommendation list. Books, podcasts, series, anything that I'd found helpful whilst navigating the endless waves of grief. I wanted to give him all the tools, the comfort, the validation that I'd clung on to. I even sent him notes on what helped me the most and why. And then a few minutes later, he replied, Thanks, but what I meant was I'm getting a divorce. I blinked at my screen. Confused doesn't even begin to cover it. My brain had fully jumped into death. Of course it had. I was living in a world where grief was my constant companion. In my mind, any mention of grief meant loss. It meant absence, it meant someone had died. Divorce, that was different. And it made me think about language. The Oxford English Dictionary defines grief as a feeling of great sadness, especially when someone dies. And yet, anyone who's experienced heartbreak, separation, or the loss of something deeply personal knows that grief doesn't just belong to death. Grief is bigger than that. It sneaks into divorce papers, into hospital waiting rooms, into lost jobs, into friendships that fall apart, into the end of dreams. It's a feeling of emptiness, a void, a longing for what was and what could have been, even if no funeral is involved. So maybe the dictionary is technically correct, but it doesn't tell the whole story. It doesn't tell us that grief can be quiet, invisible, and unacknowledged. It doesn't tell us that grief can arrive in ways that we don't expect for reasons that seem almost trivial until you're the one feeling it. And maybe that's the thing. I learned in those months after Alex passed, grief is grief. It doesn't come with rules. It doesn't always have a person attached to it. It just comes. And when it does, it demands attention, even if no one else understands why it hurts so much. And for anyone listening thinking, my grief isn't for a person, so maybe it doesn't count. It really fucking does. Every tear, every laugh, every strange, complicated feeling counts. I'm joined by one of mine and Alex's friends, Gemma, who in 2022, at the age of 31, Gemma was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer. She's had a massectomy and wanted to talk about the loss and grief of something non-human, her breasts. And I know this might feel strange or uncomfortable at first, and honestly, that is exactly the point. Because grief comes in all forms. It's messy, and sometimes we don't even have words for it. So welcome, Gemma. How are you today? I'm okay, thank you, Meg. Thank you very much for having me on. Thank you for joining me so early in the morning before work.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Oh god, yeah, I'm a little bit tired today. Um Do you have your coffee?

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Will that help?

SPEAKER_02 4:12

I actually don't. I'm just staying hydrated. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Oh my god. Hydration queen. I've um I've purposely chosen this mug, especially for you and what we're talking about today. I think I've showed you this when you came around to my house.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

That's from the woman, isn't it? Who she has basically thrown something really similar to me. Like loads of similarities, but yeah, she's very inspiring.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Yeah, I think the company is Bertie and Ray. So yeah, I will post the pictures of this to my Instagram, but it's this amazing, what do you call it? It's like a clay, clay mug, isn't it? With two boobies and simply the breast written inside.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

And something like organic it is, it's like not straight lines, or like I love it.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

It's a great like mug to hold on to. So I've got my my flat white in there. I think it might be my third one of the day, but who's counting? Um I know. So um, yeah, I think obviously, like I've explained, I have a bit of a cold, so I'm sounding a bit husky. So apologies if I have to stop and have a couple of coughs and things, but I'm redetermined to get this podcast out because uh we've been talking about this for a little while, and I'm I think it's such an important topic to talk about. Um, and I'm just so grateful that you're on here talking to me.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

I'm a little bit nervous, but yeah, it's exciting too.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

It is very exciting. Um so I guess the first uh question I wanted to ask is uh well just to talk about sort of how we met um and how you sorry, that's Honey jumping on the bed, how you met Alex as well, and some of your favourite memories of Alex, because obviously you know us both.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Yeah, so I actually knew Alex first. Um we met at school, um, we were in the same year, uh Gordano in Borgite. Shout out. And um, yeah, we probably started hanging out in sort of like year 10 or 11. Um, we were in the same friendship group, and yeah, he's just kind of he stayed in my life from there. Um, and then I heard about you before I met you, and it was just um yeah, he said to him I'd like met this great woman, and um yeah, and then he was right. Found a good end, and yeah, I'm just so glad he brought us into your us into you into our lives.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

So I'm grateful for that too. Yeah, um it's a funny one because yeah, obviously we've got this like I don't know many people that I mean you guys have such a huge friendship group still from school. Um and I think that's really rare these days, especially all these years later.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

No, we are really lucky, like I mean, to get 18 of us away.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Yeah, exactly. We've obviously just been away, haven't we, in Cornwall? That was lovely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

Um lovely.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

But yeah, we always I mean, Alex always joked that obviously, yeah. I moved from Derby to Bristol and I didn't really know anybody, so you didn't introduce me to you girls, um, and you took me under your wings and then added me to I was like the extra one in the group. Um and then yeah, I remember we went away. Do you remember the very first time I met you?

SPEAKER_02 7:17

I'm I'm thinking maybe we went out on Park Street or something. Does that no?

SPEAKER_00 7:21

I remember the first time. I think it was at Bonnie's flat when he had a house party. That was before him and Lucy were together. Yeah. I remember, I know, yeah, I remember meeting a few of you there. Um God, that must have been like a lot of people. It just feels like you've always been in our friendship group.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

So I know, yeah. But yeah, great fun.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Um, we've done some uh lovely trips and holidays together. You've come skiing with us in teen before.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Yeah, that's twice now. But um, yeah, that was both very fun trips.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Um and obviously, yeah, me and you and Alex have done little camping trips surfing together, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

That's probably I was just thinking about that. That would be like one of my fondest memories of like spending time with you guys. It was just so nice to go away. It was just quite random, really, just like the three of us. But that's what I loved about like you as a couple. Like, you just like didn't feel like a third wheel, and it was just normal to go up. We all shared a tent. And uh did we share it? I don't think we shared a tent, Jem. Didn't we sleep in the car? No, we did have a tent. Did we? Okay. Do you remember the weather was horrific? Like a whole bottle of like, was it like rum or whiskey? It was whiskey and ginger ale. It makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

And that was that was sat in my that was sat in my car, wasn't it? Because I remember the weather was horrific. We were freezing cold. Wasn't it my little voxel course? And the three of us are like just squeezed in my car, just drank a bottle of whiskey. And then me and Alex had a big argument about something.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Yeah, I think it was. We went, I think we went to the pub by that point, and he'd made a comment about you not being as like clean and tidy as him or something, and then having to like pull like pull more of his weight, and then you just like stuff because obviously we were like a bottle of whiskey in by this point, and you stormed off up the hill back to the campsite, and me and Alex were like, and I thought that you were gonna be like fuming. I found you in the toilets, like um Alex was like, Yeah, where's she gone? And then you were just like on the phone to your dad having like a great time, and I was like, Okay, she's not that angry. Oh my god, I was so drunk. And then Alex was like, right, we've got to sort this out, like nail on the head, like we can't be going to like bed angry with each other. And I just yeah, I love that. Poor Gemma's just sat in the car, like, what's going on? But you were actually fine. I just yeah, it sucks me and um, yeah, we went surfing, which is lovely. Um, yeah, and like going to Glastonbury with Alex, that was some fond memories as well. We were meant to go to some hoots and the May Tools together, um, because no one else wanted to see, but me and Alex were really keen on that band. But then Alex had a tummy ache, so he had like a little nap, I think. And then I I ended up going by myself and waited for like 45 minutes and they never showed up. So that was sad.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

So we had that um sort of experience taken away from us. But um, yeah, it was a fun time with him and Gus and Brave.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Um definitely so yeah, we we've sort of explained like about how you know Alex and how you know me. Yeah. So we're here to talk about um your experience with grief and what's happened to you. So so when you first learned about your diagnosis, did you ever imagine that it was possible to be grieving something that isn't a person, like a part of your body?

SPEAKER_02 10:45

I don't think that was what was going through my mind at the moment. I don't I don't really know, to be honest, what was going through my mind. Um, it was kind of like um I think just adrenaline and running on autopilot at the start. Like I can just remember just sending out messages to people to explain what had happened, and it just didn't really feel like it was happening to me like my real life. So I don't think I was really thinking about grief. I don't think you really think about that quite an early stage, you're kind of just in adrenaline mode.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Um like yeah, shock, like survival, like yeah, and I was almost like dealing with it quite calmly in some ways at the start.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

When I was like, I just remember like just sending out messages to people to explain just being quite like matter of fact, like this is this has happened. Um but yeah, just more shock at the start.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Um yeah, because I um it was quite journey. So I remember you got your diagnosis like around the time that I think Oscar was born, right? So I just after, yeah. Was just after, yeah. So he was just like a newborn baby. I was obviously in maternity leave, and you had taken time off work, obviously for you know your treatment and everything. So yeah, we were it was weird because yeah, we were both off work for very different reasons. And I remember like, yeah, trying to be there to support you as best as I could. And I remember actually you I remember you calling me or texting me. It was like midweek. I guess like there wasn't many work, right? No, I remember when you first told me I was in the gym well with Oscar and I was working out, and I just got I think yeah, like you said, I just got this text message like, um, yeah, I just wanted to let you know I've been diagnosed with stage three breast cancer, and I was just like, this has got to be a joke. Like, obviously, you don't joke about something like that. Like, yeah, I I yeah, I can't even remember like what I did. I think I don't remember finishing the workout. Like, I think I I might have called Alex straight, I probably called Alex straight away and was just like, I come so confused, like I don't know what's happened. Um but yeah, I remember it must yeah, Oscar was only must have been only like a few months old or something, and I think yeah, you'd had obviously you'd had so many appointments, hadn't you, to start off with? And then you texted me, I think you might have called me, and you were like, and it was the first time I'd heard you really upset. Like you said you'd been really matter-of-fact the whole time, and I think we're all thinking, Oh my god, she's handling this like incredibly well. And I remember one of those things.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Yeah, I think it was the um yeah, the lady who's like died recently, or like yeah, I think I just suddenly freaked out that it wasn't going to be curable and spiral. Like, I was trying to read stories that were positive and just like clinging on to any type of hope at that point. But like I went on to like look about her story and I I just it just scared me a little bit. Yeah, spiraled.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

And that was that was the first time I'd like heard you like sort of yeah the real emotions panic and the real emotions, yeah. And I just like yeah, I dropped everything, obviously apart from Oscar, because I had to bring him with me, I remember. And I drove to your house, and I was just I remember driving there just thinking, please, please, if there's a god, let Oscar sleep this whole time. I just need to be there for Gemma. Like and I remember he did, I remember him he bringing him in his little like carry suit, and he just slept there the whole time while I sat with you on the sofa, and you know, we talked through things, we cried, like we hugged, like um, and yeah, that was because I think yeah, it's um I think it's just that thing that actually it's okay to not be of course it's okay to not be okay. You've had this huge life-changing diagnosis, like no one's expecting you to be this strong, like you know, figure and just get on with it, like and I don't think I like really thought that to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

It was just I I kind of was just in that sort of shock stage to start off with and like not really sure what to think. So it's probably good to like get it all out. Um, but I think once it's it's the very start of the procedure where you've there's all these unknowns and you're waiting to hear back on like how bad it is or whether it can be treated. Like I I didn't want to know details at the start, like I didn't it took me a long time until I found out that it was stage three because I was like, I actually don't want to know, I just want to know, is it curable? Like, can we get is there a possibility I can get through this? And yeah, I just didn't want to know all the details they had to tell me um until like a bit later on, and that was just my way of coping with it. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Yeah. I think um there's some parallels between like what I went what I've been through with Alex and um with what you've been through with your diagnosis and your treatment, because I remember you telling me that um you you got I think it was you said that you'd gone to like this sort of support group or something, and you were like sat in a room with like 60 plus year old women, yeah. And you were just like, I can't, I know, yeah, sure, we've all been diagnosed with like a similar thing, but I can't relate to these women. Like, and obviously the same for me, being a widow at 30, um joints it really does, and you're just thinking, like, how is this fair?

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Like, you know, yeah, yeah, that's often that sort of question of like why, like, why me? Like, and yeah, it isn't quite the same. And I they realize that in the NHS as well. Like, it was uh it was like a helpful support group that I went to, and I did get a lot of use out of it. I found this woman in it, um, Kate Olden. She's like amazing. She like uh works out of Pennybron, which is like a cancer center um in Pill, and they've like now started sort of referring people to there and realizing how beneficial she can be. Um she just like knows she's gone through the whole thing herself and she just like knows loads about she's like she can do like all the she does scar massage, she does like just talking through like sort of therapy and um just breaking and all this like sort of holistic stuff as well to make you feel better. But um, yeah, they realised that it's very different for like someone my age going through uh breast cancer compared to someone who's 60 or or I don't know 50 even. But um they so they did do like a a follow-up therapy session for people that were like I think was it yeah, like in their four maybe it was like no older than 50, it was like anyone pre-50. Um so I I did like a group therapy through the NHS and that was really good, yeah. That was like similar, like people in similar similar position to me.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Yeah, it makes the world of difference, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Yeah, but um yeah, in terms of like the grief you were talking about, like yeah, I I wouldn't say it happened at the start, um and even like you said like the grief of losing something, I was so scared about my mastectomy before it happened because that was like but obviously chemo was really scary as well. Like I lost a lot of my hair, I was able to keep some of it, but um like it was the permanency of like losing the breast, it's like very scary, like unknowingly chopping something off. Like uh yeah, I had to really prepare myself for it, and I was I just didn't know how I was gonna be. Like, I thought it was I was gonna be really depressed, but I think the way my brain works is I often fear the thing and think about it and overthink so much before it actually happens that when it actually happens it's better than I thought it was going to be.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Oh, yeah, I can completely relate to that. Yeah, so many things that I've been or so many of the firsts that I've been dreading this past like year or the first year. Yeah, I was dreading it, and actually half the time I'd made it so much worse in my head. Of course, there was still shit, like there's no getting around that, but yeah, it's um it can surprise you sometimes that the things that you're dreading the worst actually aren't as bad as you expect them to be. They're still bad, but not as bad.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, I have been surprised at how resilient I was and in that moment, and like, yeah, it's similar to you. Like, we you've surprised us all this like past year of like how strong you've been, and like how much you've like how many positive things you've achieved, and like obviously we don't see every side, but like how how you come across, like, yeah, just a powerhouse. But um, I yeah, when it actually happened, like the run-up was awful, and uh I actually went to one of these support sessions um with my mum, and I wanted to like learn a little bit more. They they had like a a surgeon come in um and do a talk, and it was really interesting, she was really good. But um I ended up like talking to some of the women about because I was at that stage I was trying to figure out what kind of masteptomy and reconstruction I was gonna have. It was really confusing, and it was like they don't give you much information about it all, and um I ended up like reading books on it and stuff, and it just felt like the information was really not just not clear and like conflicting sort of info. My complication was that I had raid I was gonna have to have radiotherapy after the mastectomy, and they say you can't have an implant. We lots of people are like, Yeah, you're not you're not able to have an implant if you are having radiotherapy because it's like there's a really high risk of it failing after the radiotherapy, because it's not that they don't mix. Um but then I was like the only other option for me was like um sort of reconstruction from my stomach, and because I'm quite slim, I mean I do have a little bit of a punch on my belly, that's that is why I hold any fat, but um, there just wasn't much there to to reconstruct, and I just didn't like that thought, like it looked quite like severe, like and it obviously works well for some people, but I just um I don't know, it like freaked me out that option a little bit, and I wanted to go I really wanted to go back down the implant route. And then at that session um that I went to, some of the women were like, Yeah, no, you can't we we didn't get like we had to have radiotherapy, you can't have an implant, like and it just like took that like hope away from me that that because that's what I'd I'd figured it out and I was like, Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do. Um and then they were like, Yeah, yeah, we're we just had like a complete we just had a mastectomy and we're on the waiting list to get us the the reconstruction using your stomach, and that they were like it can take several weeks. Years and I just I started crying and then my mum had to take me home and it was just awful. I was like sobbing in the car, and my my mum was like sorry.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Um yeah, my mum was really strong, she just okay, don't worry, it would take a minute. Yeah, she just drove. I was just in floods of tears.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Yeah, it must have been really you're thinking about your mum. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

Yeah, I felt in that moment I I could see how hard it must be for her, but I just couldn't couldn't stop um being upset. Yeah, she was just yeah, she's been really strong throughout the world.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Oh god, yeah, again, like I can completely relate to to that as well. Like, you know, it's it's really funny, you know, it's not funny, but what I'm watching you getting upset, and you're getting upset worrying about how your mum felt in that situation, you know, and I'm like, my heart's breaking for you because I I'm thinking, you know, we I love Ginny, you know, I love Ginny, and she is an incredible woman. But I'm thinking, Gemma, like we're all thinking about you here. Like, and as I was thinking that, I'm thinking, oh my god, I can I I know people are thinking the same thing about me. Like, I have been so concerned, all these different like milestones, like wondering, oh gosh, this must be so hard for Alex's friends and family when they're thinking, God, like, what's what's Meg gone through, you know?

SPEAKER_02 23:40

So true, actually. I remember you thinking like it must be so hard for all of us, and like saying that, and I'm just it does make you say like when you see it from the other side, it's interesting because you think like obviously we're just thinking about you, and um yeah, but I think it just goes to show the importance of like the like strong support, like strong the support that you have in the face of something horrific, like me and you have been through. Yeah, we're very lucky, aren't we? That we've so lucky and that makes like the world of difference, and that gave me my strength. Like my parents were amazing, and like all my friends like to Ginny and Mike. Shout out to Mike. Um, yeah, and just such a lovely the the the things that all of my friends did for me just like blew me away. Yeah, some lovely like even like gestures. Yeah. It started like the first thing was like my friend Sophie, and we don't we don't keep in touch as much anymore, but like she was great at the start because she was in the NHS and like she she could help me work out like the pathways, and like that gave me sort of like a structure of like knowing what was to come next, and she was like looking into it for me, and I just that that meant a lot at the start, but then just like everyone just like friends like made up like a hamper of all the sort of things when I was going through like chemotherapy and like um just so many lovely gifts.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Like, did you felt like all overwhelmed by that?

SPEAKER_02 25:11

I didn't actually know it felt like everyone had all discussed, like and like I'm not talking about just about our friend group, but like everywhere it seemed like everyone knew when someone else was doing something, and it it was like in stages like oh like I might get like flowers or something, but it wasn't I wasn't overwhelmed with flowers, it would just be like as and when I needed it, and like presents like arrived, yeah, in like perfect time. And I was just like, How is that? It's like it's been like orchestrated, yeah, just yeah, just like visits from people when I was like going through chemo and just like that really, yeah. Going through chemo, it was just having these little things to look forward through to throughout. And I think what got me through the whole thing was having little personal like goals of things that I was learning at the time. Like I took up crochet, you know. I like made so many things out of crochet. I like was able to carry on skating in between chemo when I was feeding up to it, and that and just like having little skating challenges was really important for me. Learning Spanish, like that those sort of things where I feel like I'm like learning like something new. It just got me, yeah. The focus of having something like positive to think about was what got me got me through it all.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

And I remember like you, it was it was a fine line because you I remember you telling us that you wanted to sort of like plan loads of things ahead in the diary, but also it was really difficult because there were so many appointments and um you didn't know how you'd be feeling after your chemo and things. So we were just like that's at we were like absolutely fine. Like if you need to cancel, cancel. And so I remember actually remember after shortly after your diagnosis, we went to um we found that place in Taunton, the girls. Yeah, we went down there. That was lovely.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Yeah, I yeah, so that's like another example. Like I just I can't even like list them all because it's just like there's just so many last things that we did. I am that many.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

One of my one of my nice memories, like throughout that ordeal that you went through, was do you remember we took you to um the Spanish Tapas bath that flamenco flamenco evening? And I remember I can still picture you now. Like, I think I think I've probably got a picture on my phone somewhere, and we ordered tapaz, and there was this like flamenco dancer with this guy playing Spanish guitar. And I remember you were sat there and like this was in the midst of like your chemo, and so you know, you you could see that you were poorly, but you just had this like massive smile on your face, and you were just like, you know, we look know that you love like you know Spain and like learning Spanish and everything like that, Spanish culture, and you just looked so happy, it was so lovely, it was just so nice, and we just wanted to see you smile. That was all. Oh Meg, you guys are so cute.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Um there was so much positivity in that, in like a really hard time. Like I feel like I never really like explained like after the sort of mystectomy, but um yeah, when the first week I was saying that it's it was like I was too scared to look, um, because I just didn't know what um like it it felt something was different, but I I was just too scared, I just didn't know what it was gonna look like, and I was too scared to know. And I had to go like you have these like drains put in that you have you go home with these drains, two drains that you had to like empty, it was kind of gross, like um a couple of times a day. And and then you go and get them taken out, and that the the first person to look at was the woman that took the drains out, and I told her that I was um I'd been too scared to look um because like I was told that it would look like you had like little snakes under your skin where you where the drains were in, and I was just like, Yeah, I I've heard it it doesn't look that good at the start. And the woman was like, Yeah, it doesn't look great, and I was like, really? And like, are you not trying? Oh my god! Um that's not really what I wanted to hear is the first like feedback. Um but yeah, I was actually I was I think they they kind of really prepare. I think this why the run-up was particularly bad as well, is they like really kind of prepare you for the worst, because they don't know, like it it it it can it can come out differently depending on like how like it's it's quite individuals, how like your skin might react to it, etc. Um, so they kind of they show you pictures of what it could look like because I think they want to like manage expectations because people hear that they're getting a boob job and expecting like the Hollywood um outcome. Um so they yeah, they kind of show you things to cut sort of manage your expectations, and that kind of quite scared me. Um but I think that was like kind of it was horrible at the time to like um they to know how it could go, but that was quite useful in that then I was like, oh well I'm pleasantly surprised with how it's turned out, and my surgeon did do an amazing job. Um and yeah, obviously I think I guess I I do grieve my previous life, but it's so it's less of a grief of a specific thing and more of like how your life was then compared to now. Um and it's but yeah, I think it's been better than I I thought.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Um is it sort of that you grieve the the sort of like ignorant bliss that you're sort of like previous to your diagnosis? Like is that what you're doing?

SPEAKER_02 30:52

A bit more like caref carefree, obviously like just like I'm a lot more scared now, like at health anxiety um coming back or whatever. Um, and I think it's quite a scary place going back into the dating world because um yeah, I was like single at the time of diagnosis. Um yeah, very scary when like the only people that have looked at you naked um for the last like yeah is like being medical professionals and you you feel kind of like uh some sort of thing to be examined. Um to then going back into the dating world was like, yeah, so that's that's always quite scary and knowing when to like bring it up as well. Like uh when I first went back on like I was on the dating apps, um uh yeah, like I had some bad experiences with just like I was I was still out off at that point about to go back to work, and people were like asking, oh like you sounds like you've been like on like a lot of like you've been away a lot. Um and uh just uh they were like what why? And I was like, Well, I can't avoid saying it, so I did, and then I just like got ghosted by quite a few people, but like I do kind of I kind of get it when like you've not met up with someone you just don't know. It's like that it's that fear of the unknown, I suppose, and it's just so easy to go on the dating up tell, but that wasn't a very good start, yeah. But um, yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Responses, yeah, like absurd responses.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

I bet you no, I know you did you not? I actually haven't, no. Um mainly just like like might continue chatting for a bit but then like slowly fade away, or like, yeah, just the straight up ghosting. Um, no, I have I think I have been really lucky. Um, and I found someone that I was with for a year, and although we we had our differences, he was like really, really good for me, and he really built up my confidence and um was just so like positive about my body, and like that was just what I needed. Yeah, um that's so yeah, that helped like build up the confidence in myself again. Um but yeah, just I think that sort of thing of um yeah, it's just you can be a bit more carefree in like not knowing when to bring it up. So I still have that issue now of like when do you say, like, and sometimes you just don't feel that some people you can open up to so well, like the yeah, it it really just depends on the how you feel like the conversation is going with people and some people just don't feel like they're so easy to talk to about these things, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Um, do you feel like I kind of feel with with I mean grief in general, like it's not what you what people think that it's like linear, right? Like it comes in waves. Like, do you still have that now where like yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Um like recently, yeah. I've been really struggling recently. I think we spoke a little bit about this. Just I think my hormones have gone all over the place, and that's like I've just been like randomly crying. No reason. Um, and I don't know if that is just like a sort of as you say, like grief not being linear and it's just all coming out now because obviously there was a like a lot of adrenaline, and you're going through all the things uh when you're going through treatment, and then it's like you kind of get to the end, and you only then do you start processing it, and so like it'll just pop out of nowhere that you you feel like you've been doing really well, being really positive and stuff, and then other days you're just like, Why am I just like just no you focus more on it? Yeah, and then negative, or you just like just randomly start crying for no reason, and yeah, I think it's a little bit of just it yeah, things can just catch you off guard, or like yeah, it could also be hormones all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

How do you how do you deal with it when you have those moments? Like what are your coping strategies?

SPEAKER_02 35:14

I think I just I just cry for a bit and then carry on.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Just ride it, yeah. Just ride it. Just like so you can't escape it, can you?

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Like, yeah, and speaking to people, um I think helps. It's sometimes like hard to like, yeah, if you bottle it all up and just think keep keep the thoughts to yourself, like it can be worse than just sharing sharing your like thoughts and fears.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Um so yeah, looking back, what has this experience taught you about yourself and or life in general?

SPEAKER_02 35:50

That yeah, that I'm a lot more resilient than I thought I would be, and um actually, yeah, quite positive. Like I don't really consider myself that positive a person, but I think I'm quite positive person, Jeff. Yeah, I think I have my moments. I think what for me, I think I'm actually quite pessimistic about things, but it means that I can end up being quite positive because I'm always pleasantly surprised. Like so you like expect the worst. I what is it? Expect the worst or something. I don't know. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, I yeah, I am actually surprised like how I've how how I've dealt with it all the cast. Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

Yeah, you don't you don't know until you're you're put through it, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

You really don't relate to that.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Yeah. Um dark human as well has got me through.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Oh yes, hundred percent, hundred percent. Um so I always I always end uh I always like to try and end the podcast when I've spoken to someone that knows Alex by um asking uh what parts of Alex you see in Oscar, because also listen to this when he was older. Oh yeah, things that you'd like Oscar to know about his daddy.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

It's quite hard comparing like a 30-year-old to a three-year-old. Yeah. But I would say like his bravery and just like he's just good at stuff, isn't he? Like, I'm just so impressed. I was so proud of him when we went skiing, just like how far he came and when we went to his little ceremony. Um which he'd apparently you said he'd done about three times already. Yeah. Like the the longest one in the ski school. But uh yeah, like he he's picked that up so quickly, and I think that yeah, Alex was good at just everything. Yeah, annoyingly good at just everything. Um, so I feel like he's got a good gene there of like just being able to like pick up anything.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

He's definitely not got that from me, that's for sure. Actually, I don't know. I feel like you're no, he's not.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

I need to put a lot of work in. Yeah, but um, and the adventure, but like you've obviously really uh harnessed that and you've like just yeah, taken off on so many adventures to be able to turn him into this adventurous child. Um so yeah, I'd say that's the main thing. Obviously, he just looks very much like you. But yeah, I think he he is a bit of a mix. I've seen pictures of Alex when he was like younger and he looked a bit different. So like, yeah, I think similar similarities there as well. And what was the other one? Um oh what one thing that you like? I think I've kind of already said this to him in in the little like cart thing I gave him at Christmas, the little owl. Um that was lovely. Yeah, I just said like he was just such a caring person, but in like such a like cool way, like not over the top, just like yeah, quite understated, but just really cared about his friends and really supportive. Um and just really calm, a calm presence. But yeah, just all the things he did to help, like talking about like you know, and made those stickers to say like handmade with Alex could care, and made by Alex would care. But yeah, the thing like well, you and your dad as well, like came and like sorted my roof issues out, which was ongoing forever. Um helped me move into my house, and he's done that for so many people. Just just such a lovely guy. And yeah, if he has school grow up to be the same, but um that's what I'd like him to know, and um yeah, I think it's probably what everyone would say.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

It's not just yeah, not just me. No, definitely. Um listen, Jem, thank you so much for being brave enough to share your story. And I hope people listening realize I just hope people realize that grief doesn't need to make sense to anyone except you, and it's messy, it's personal, and it's pretty fucking wild. So, yeah. Here we are. I love you very much. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 40:13

Cheers, Meg.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Oscar, I want to tell you something about grief, and it's a little different from the kind that we usually talk about. Sometimes when people hear the word grief, they think it only happens when you lose a person you love. But grief isn't like that. Grief can happen when we lose other things too. Things that are part of who we are, things that feel important to us, or things that were a part of our lives. For example, when people grieve losing a pet, a friendship, or even a part of their body. Gemma went through something very brave. She lost a part of her body to illness, and she's had to grieve that loss. That grief is real, even though it's not about losing a person. Grief is messy, Oscar. It doesn't follow rules, it doesn't care if it's inconvenient or if other people understand it. Sometimes it makes us cry, sometimes it makes us angry, sometimes it makes us laugh at strange things, and that's okay. That's just part of being human. I want you to know that it's okay to feel deeply about things that might seem small or different. Your feelings are always valid. You can grieve for the people you love, for things that change, for parts of yourself that feel different than they used to. And it's also okay to find moments of joy even while you're grieving. One day you might grieve something that isn't a person, and that's okay. And if you do, I hope you remember that grief is not weakness. It's a sign that you care. That's all it really is. Grief doesn't follow rules. It doesn't care what's normal or expected, and it doesn't have to make sense to anyone but you. Whether it's a body part, a pet, a relationship, or a life you imagined, the feelings are real and they are valid. If you're listening and thinking, I didn't know I could grieve that, well know this. You can. And it's okay. You're allowed to feel it, to sit with it, and even to laugh at the strange ways grief shows up. Thank you for listening with me and Gemma today. I hope you leave this episode reminded that grief, in all its forms, is human, messy, and sometimes even beautiful. Until next time, pour yourself a coffee, be gentle with yourself, and remember it's okay to grieve in your own way. This has been the Early Morning Coffee Club. I'm sorry you're here, but I'm glad we're here together. See you next week.