EPISODE 4: Captain Rick Hoffman

Welcome back to the UNF Leadership Podcast. 

This week, we’re excited to bring you our first in-person conversation of our summer season and one of our favorite guest lecturers at the University of North Florida: Captain Rick Hoffman.

Stationed at Naval Station Mayport, Captain Rick commanded the USS De Wert and USS Hue City. Upon retirement, he founded Orion Solutions, a defense contracting firm, and became even more involved in our Northeast Florida community – including serving on the UNF Student Affairs Community Council since 2013. He also hosts two syndicated TV programs: “Legacy of Leaders” and “From Sea Suite to C-Suite.” 

While he served in the United States Navy for 28 years, Captain Rick likes to say he’s served his country 51 years – because of his service to the Jacksonville community as a leader and entrepreneur, even beyond the ships he led. 

This is “Voices of Leadership: Captain Rick Hoffman”

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to the US. This week we're excited to bring you our first conversation of our statement, one of our favorite guest lecturers at the University of North Florida, Captain Rick Office. Statement at Naval Station May 4. Captain Rick commanded the USS USS founded O'Brien's position LLC. Welcome into this week's edition of the UNF Leadership Podcast, where we interview some of our greatest leaders in our UNF Taylor Leadership Institute ecosystem and beyond. No one demonstrates the values of the Taylor Leadership Institute more than a mainstay for us here at the Taylor Leadership Institute as a lecturer, a mentor in our UNF mentoring program, the one and only Captain Rick Hoffman. Captain Rick, thanks so much for taking the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Mia, this has been a real delight. Thank you so much for having me. It's uh Taylorship Institute has been a big part of my life now for over a decade. And so watching the young men and women succeed, entering the workforce with a with a stronger foundation on who they are, what's their self-worth, and how they can better contribute to uh the the the whatever organization they find themselves in has just been a real delight. And the people that Matt has gathered around him as his team has been just a lot of fun to be around. And you are amongst that that cohort.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

I appreciate that. And we did just get done. We are in your uh TV studio, we're gonna call it. We just got done filming uh an episode for your leadership series, The Legacy of Leadership. Um, but for those who are unfamiliar with you, this is typically where we start these episodes. Just give us your leadership journey, however you want to describe it, from where you were to where you are today.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Well, my leadership journey began in the cradle. My father was a career army officer. He came from seven generations of career military. So I am an American ninja. And so uh as I was growing up, I I I grew my dad, he was the colonel. And so uh the sorts of discipline You're the captain, he was the colonel. He was the colonel. Uh and in the army, a captain doesn't outrank a colonel. So uh, but uh uh the sort of discipline, the sort of focus that my brought my father brought to the table kind of shaped who I was uh growing up. But I recognize that some of the austere leadership skills that were necessary to build a 150,000-person army to a 5 million million person army in 1940 may not be the effective way of leading young men and women today. Uh I was always a little bit uh uh contrarian um to include when I went off to college, I went to the Citadel on a Navy ROTC college. Vietnam was still ongoing. So I knew I was prepared to serve, I had no political ax to grind. I just knew that the army wasn't the place for me. Uh, the Navy probably wasn't either, but off I go. So I uh went to the Citadel and I quickly figured out that that leadership model there was not mine either. I became openly subversive, like four years as a cadet private. Uh their leadership model didn't fit my personality. Uh but when I got to my first ship and I began to work with these young men who had a tough, tough job to do under austere circumstances, I connected with them very well. My first job was as first lieutenant. The first lieutenant has about 40 young men who are typically, they they their their scores didn't allow them to proceed into a skill set. So I called my we call them in the 1940s and 50s, those guys were typically called decapes. They were the painters, the scrapers, they're the guys heaving around on a line, they're the guys putting boats in water, they're the guys that do the manual work.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

But they're still leaders, to be fair, in their own right.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

In their own right, they absolutely have to be. But they're not often at that age, and when they first start, given the opportunity to contribute to add, because the chief petty officer was God. And and even as an ensign, I wasn't really in charge. Um, but I realized early on that that the that the what we call what you and I refer to early conversations, coercive leadership, uh, wasn't my model either. And so I stayed in the Navy for 28 years. I commanded two ships, and I was able to take my own ideas uh that my job as the captain of the ship is to provide my sailors with the tools, the time, and the training to do their job. And if I have failed to do that, and often big Navy would fail the ship, they would fail me. They would not give me the manpower to do a job I needed to do, or they would say, work smart harder, work smarter, but not harder, which is a failing leadership model.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Oh, we got to stick a pin in that. We're gonna circle back to that later.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

I say, no, if if if you don't give me the resources to do my job, then don't give me that, don't give me that. And so that became sort of the cornerstone. Now, early on, I recognized as the captain of ship, I control time. I can change the day of the week. And I did this. Uh I was operating off Haiti back in '94 on my frigate. And uh it was lunchtime on a Wednesday. I know it was Wednesday because that's slider day. Uh in the U.S. Navy, you always serve hamburgers on fry uh on uh on Wednesdays, and they're called sliders because the quality of the beef that we get for hamburgers uh don't allow the hamburger to stick to the griddle when the ship's rocking and rolling. So uh uh sort of as a lark, I'm not a big fisherman, but I recognize that a lot of my sailors really enjoyed that sort of stuff. So we had fishing gear. So I'm off Haiti and it's lunchtime. So we bring the ship up to three knots and we start trolling through this water. And about 12:15, we catch a Marwin. So I'm on the back of the ship, and it's lunchtime, so it's not like I'm I'm stealing anything from the United States Navy. But uh uh so we're we catch this fish. And so I'm on the fan tail with my walkie-talkie, engine stop, engine back one third. I'm doing Captain Rick's fish charter off Haiti with this Marlin. We ultimately brought it inside the boat. How big was it? Uh it was 10 feet from the from the from the fork of the tail to the uh to the tip of the roster, 103 pounds. And so uh I had uh duty gunner's mate, muster on the fan tail with a with a 45, pop, you know, and we brought him aboard and we ate him. But meanwhile, my executive officer, the number two in command, was fairly new and didn't know me well. So at one o'clock, the officer deck on the bridge, because we're underway, said, you know, turn two, commit, you know, resume ship's work. And I called up the bridge and said, blame my last. Now commence holiday routine, basically giving that all the sailors the afternoon off. Right. Well, the XO races up the bridge, choking out the officer deck, and he's pointing the walkie talking, saying caps on the phantom. And so he came rolling on on me. And I said, I said, XO, we're gonna be here for three more weeks. What do we have to do this afternoon that's more important that will have more lasting memories for our sailors than catching this fish?

unknown 7:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Okay. And he went back to his his cabin in salt, but uh we we I declared it Wednesday. I declare it Sunday. Yeah, and when I recognize that that I can do that, I recognize that time is a leadership model that we and the Navy don't take full advantage of. We hear about hurry up and wait. You know, the captain says have the crew ready to go at 0,800. The exo tells the department heads, have them all out out there at 7:30. You see where this goes. Next thing you know, they're standing around at 4 a.m. wondering what the hell they're doing. And I said, we will not do that here. I will not waste your time. And so uh you know, so I I I I I force that into the psyche of of my ship. So, so uh uh the other thing that I recognize is that all of us, everyone who achieves a high rank in the Navy or in any of the services is convinced they got there because they're superb leadership skills. Uh, the vast majority are wrong. Uh, how do I know that I'm not in that vast majority that's as diluted, that ego bias. And uh this is my opening spiel at to the honors college leadership talk. I say, uh, it turns out I'm the least qualified person in this conversation to determine whether I'm a leader or not. Only you can tell me whether I am. I may think I am, but if I assert that I am, I almost certainly am not. Okay. And I can't ignore the fact that I'm in a I'm in a coercive environment where I can say something really stupid. You still have to go do it. Okay. Because you're the boss. The uniform code of military justice compels you. Okay.

unknown 8:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

It's not, it's not a it's not a team necessarily. And I force myself to to overcome that, uh, both on in in command of USS Way City and in and when I had USS Do work, and even now as I as I continue my journey. Um, so so my leadership technique is to, as we discussed, the what is the why? Why am I doing this? And if I don't, if I can't articulate that to myself, then I need to pause and say, what am I doing? And and has big navy given me the tools to do what I need to do? And if not, I'm gonna go back to big navy and say, I'm not gonna do this. Right. Okay. Gluring example. We have an every five years, every ship in the Navy goes through a congressionally mandated inspection called the Board of Inspection Survey. Yep. Um, and they inspect a lot of stuff over which I have no control. Big Navy says we're gonna pay to get deep preservation and and and maintenance on bilges, for example. I'm not manned to do that. But then big Navy doesn't pay to do that, so it doesn't get done, but I'm gonna be inspected on it. So traditionally, what we do in our in our myopic way is we throw people at it. We call it a tiger team. And we take the bottom 10% of every division, throw them into a group, and send them to bilges. It's a loser, it's a losing, a losing leadership model. So what I did is I went to my chief petty officers and I said, by the way, the Navy mans us to do watchkeeping. They do not man us to do deep maintenance and preservation. We're going to be inspected in deep maintenance and preservation. So we so we have to adjust accordingly. I'm not going to put together a tiger team. I'm going to, my USS Way City was the only US Navy warship name for Vietnam era battle. So our logo was a stylized Asian dragon. So I created a dragon team. Remember now, I've got 40 operations specialists and 35 fire control specialists who own almost nothing of the ship. I've got four enginemen who own a third of the engineering spaces. And they need help, not because they're not doing their job. We've given them a job that's not they that the Navy said they weren't going to be asked to do, and now that we have to. So I I pulled my chiefs together and said, here's the 10 spaces that need attention. You guys work it out.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

And my team came together, and the guy that got me the most, the guy that figured me out the quickest, uh, retired, now retired master chief Rylan Reemy came to me in 2006 and said, I want to work for you for the rest of my life. He was just here about an hour ago. And we just interviewed him in uh from the sea to the C suite. He got what I was trying to accomplish. He was my my my advocate to the other chiefs, and they came together and they did this thing flawlessly. And with everybody understood why they were again, they knew the why.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

They knew the why they knew why they had to do this. So I want to take this to another point that you make, Captain Wreck, and tie this to something else. The bottom 10%, this is something that the Navy asks for every five years, is recertification. And so the traditional approach is well, we're gonna take the bottom 10%, they're gonna bandage the situation, they're gonna dial it up, dress it up, and that's how we're gonna pass recertification. Did I hear that correct?

SPEAKER_02 11:39

That's that's what we well, what we do, what what happens is the captain tells the XO uh I need 50 people on this team. Well, they go to the chiefs and say, I need you to give me three, you to give me, they're not gonna give you the guys that are that are painful to give you, they're gonna give you the three or four guys that they can spare.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yes. So you're not but not necessarily the guys that are going to do the best job.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

They will absolutely not do the best job. And additionally, they will need the most leadership and they we will not provide the best leaders.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Which brings us to this.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Just because you are a great soldier, just because you're a great midshipman, does not mean you are a leader, does not mean you are a captain. And the same can be said for just because you're a great accountant doesn't mean that you can run your own accounting firm. Just because you're a great hygienist doesn't mean you can run your own dental practice.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Yeah, exactly. Well, but but let's look at some other models. What who becomes principals of high schools? Teachers. And a person who's really, really skilled in the classroom, or they necessarily many are. Yes, but not many are, but not necessarily. That's not a necessary uh prerequisite for to success in that environment. So you you're spot on, you totally get where where I was heading with this. And so at this point, all of my chiefs now are invested in the success of all of the ship, not just in their little niche, not in just their little area. And quite frankly, it made my life immensely easy. Now, two other things happened. Uh I took command of the ship in January of 2001. Uh, in October of 2000, uh, USS Koal was attacked off in Yemen. So we had an immediate uh terrorist attack on a US Navy warship that killed American sailors that I had to now convey to my sailors how do we make sure that does not happen to us? Okay. Ten months later, 9-11 happens. And I and now I show up on the ship. This is 25 years ago. I got a zero-zero blade on the side, flat top, 17-inch neck. I was still pushing three and a quarter, still squatting four and a half.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

So uh, so you know, 117.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

I know you're so I keep looking at my screen because I know you're worried about your uh your physique and the fact that you're not doing that. You look great, you look awesome.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

But uh uh so and they knew me, they knew my reputation. Mayport's a small base. I just left the Enterprise Battle Group as the operations officer. We did exercise uh Operation Desert Fox, where we shot 300 some Tomahawk cruise missiles into Iraq. They knew I was a war fighter, they knew that I was going to bring the war fighting ethos to the ship. Um, and so uh uh the ship had not been operational for five years. It had been an a research and development project. And I we arranged for me to take command of the ship one year to the day before their first deployment in six years. So I had to recertify the combat systems, I had to recertify the crew to fight the ship, and I had to bring to them and bring them back to a war fighting ethos. And um, as evidenced by Ryland Reemy joining my journey for my second career, and we are still very close to many of those who served with me on that ship. Right. So um the other thing that was interesting is that the first time I'd ever served with women at sea.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Was in 2001.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

When I took command of USS Way City. Now I'd served with women, but I'd never served with women at sea. Now I have two sisters, no brothers, two daughters, no sons. So I had a pretty good idea, and I'd watched the Navy fumble integration. Yes. And I and I was watching the Navy fumble, you know, sexual integration. And they we're we're not doing integration. So I call it we have all these rules and regulations about fraternization and don't ask them until it was don't ask no tell was that was during that period as well. Uh you may recall that's the whole, you know, you can be gay, but don't don't let me know. Um, but uh so I called the crew together and I said, here's the thing all these rules are written by lawyers, not leaders. And they all they're all they're loopholes in there. Well, if you're not in your chain of command, you can damn it. I'm gonna help you. I'm gonna make it simple. Uh everybody pay attention. When you're dealing with anybody, male, male, male, female, female, I don't care. Don't be rude, keep your hands to yourself. And it sounds like something you're learning in second grade. Okay. And you're you're 19 years old and you just finished high school in Topeka, Kansas, and you don't know when you're being rude or not. If somebody tells you you're being rude, say I'm sorry, and walk away. Don't argue because you probably don't know any better. That's the first piece. The second piece is there's 400 of you, 40 women, 10% of the crew, because that's all we had birthing for. I can't have a female petty officer sitting on a scope at two o'clock in the morning in the Persian Gulf, staring at that scope, waiting for somebody to shoot at me, and have her worried about what you're doing over here or what you just said to her, or that whether or not you're the chief petty officer that's trying to coerce or or or flirting with her. I can't have that. I can't have that.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

She's trying to do her job.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

And here's the other thing, ladies. I'd mentioned two sisters, no brothers, two daughters, no sons. You're all here, you're warriors. There's no bench. You're here for a purpose. You're here to help me fight this ship. So you're not a victim. If somebody tries to victimize you, you have an obligation to bring that to me immediately. And I will deal with it and picture really dark eyebrows. I will deal with this with a swift ferocity that you have come to expect that I would deal with an Iranian gunboat. I will deal with it swiftly, and you are not immune if you're part of a problem. Never had a problem. Never had a problem.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Because you communicated.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

I communicated very clearly. And I say, tell my how many guys have commanded a ship at sea? Oh, just me. How many guys have commanded a ship at sea in the Persian Gulf? Oh, just me. How many guys have conducted combat operations in the Persian Gulf in the last five years? Oh, just me. Who do you want crew with their eye on the horizon? Who do you want to be on the bridge to make sure that who understands the situational awareness, understand the rhythm of the of the of the Persian Gulf? If you make me leave the bridge and put on my dress uniform and go to the starboard Hilo hanger and redo your rights under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, it will be ugly.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

But so now let's go back to something we talked about just now on the podcast on your show.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

You said you do not believe in coercive leadership. This is not coercive. This is actually laying out if you do X, Y will happen. It is not, if you don't do X, it's because I said so, and then you will have hell to pay.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

Correct, correct.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

And when did you identify that in your leadership journey? I know you said early on with your dad and being around military.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

I I saw, I saw when I first took command of USS DeWirt in the early 90s, and I saw it before that too. And I felt I felt prey to this as well. Sometimes uh it's it's easier to use the Uniform Code of Military Justice to solve difficult leadership problems. And I be, I, I I evolved in command of DeWirt that said, I'm not going, Chief, I'm not going to let you use me to solve an internal management issue.

unknown 18:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Okay. So when I walk on board Way City, I said, my job, tools, time, training. So I would walk around. I did a lot of walking around. I'd see some chief berating some seaman. I would walk up, I'd go, Oh, chief, I would look very, very concerned. Chief, you seem very distraught. Are you okay? Well, see, I said, Well, what's what's going on? He said, Well, this seaman, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh. Did they do it on purpose? Did they purposely do something you did not tell them to do? Are they doing it wrong on purpose? The answer is almost always not. And so I would say, Oh, then either they didn't get sufficient instruction, you didn't give them the tools to do the job. And so we have a leadership failure here, of course, but it's not his.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

The buck stops with you.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

The bucks, this is your team. And if it doesn't go according to plan, it's not X, Y, and Z's prop fault. It's your fault.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

It's your mission.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Yeah, exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

And I think that when we look at that example in particular, and then we talk about the lawyer and this idea, or the teachers and the principal and this idea of just because you're a great teacher does not necessarily make you a great principal. Does it also feel like for some of those commanders, for some of those petty officers, it was well, I am in a leadership role. So I have to act with gusto. I have to enforce coercive leadership because that is what historically that's the model I grew up with. This is the model.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

That was the model. That's correct. And I decided not to do that. And uh and of course, you know, that at this point I'm 25, 20 years in the Navy, and I went to a military school, and my language was not suitable for office work. So I I decided to quit say dropping the F-bomb. I said, I'm not going to do that. Uh difficult. But it became, it became uh around me was this no F-bomb zone, because I said, we are professionals. Behave professionally. We can do this without having to resort to that sort of abusive language, which creates another environment which is not necessarily a place where where young sailors can express their will.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Again, what because we also use the NFL example. Once upon a time, it would be, well, get with the program, or this isn't the place for you, as opposed to, well, maybe the or the coach choking out the player on the sidelines.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

That has happened not so long ago.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Exactly. Or we gave the example, and so let's say it again: the example of once upon a time in college athletics, coaches could say, if you don't do what I need you to do, I'm going to pull your scholarship. And especially for those student athletes coming from lesser socioeconomic status, where college was their way out, not just for them, but for college sports was their way out. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

College was college was the academic part was a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

They're really athletes.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

They're not student athletes, but I digress. But point being, they would say, okay, coach, I will give in to your course of leadership because I cannot lose this scholarship. I cannot be pulled off the team because this is how I'm going to feed my family. This is how I'm going to get my and so that's where I think to an extent, I don't think it's just athletics. I don't think it's just exclusive to athletics. I think it's in the military fields, it's on ships, it's in workplaces. This is the way we've always done it. So you have to either get with the program or this is not the place for you. As opposed to maybe the place that you are currently existing in is less productive than what it could be.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Yeah. Well, and again, uh using the coaching model and care and and kind of mirror mirroring the military, you also see some where the the the prize uh athlete now is not held to the same standards. Yes. And so that destroys the fabric of the entire organization. And you see the the the coach you know bailing out some kid who got picked up shoplifting or whatever they've done, and then that guy not having any repercussions. Okay, yeah, uh that that destroys the the fabric of the organization. So, for example, I might grab one of my ensigns and and and and chew them like a ragdoll. Uh well, everybody sees that. They say, well, that could be me next.

unknown 22:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Okay, they're not gonna be open with me, they're not gonna be be uh uh ensigns don't get a pass. Right, correct.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

No one gets a pass.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Everybody, everybody's held to the same standard, absolutely. Um, and you know, and again, more often than not, what I try to deal with my sailors and my officers is if the guy's not making it, is he doing it on purpose? And the answer to that is no, you have to redouble your efforts. Now I was lucky uh because Way City had been a research development ship for five years, the very best of the brightest that were at the Bureau of Personnel who had to go back to sea because that's their career route, they were really, really good. And they sent themselves to Way City in Vicksburg because they didn't deploy. This was sweet duty. So I had more Master Chiefs and Senior Chiefs on that ship than I had chief petty officers on my frigate. So I had this depth of leadership. Now I had to tweak them because they all come with different leadership models, many of them this traditional 1950s Navy, uh, you know, uh uh that that is, you know, you know, hurry up and wait. Right. Uh uh and so getting all those guys on board and focus allowed me to just step all the way back and just watch the magic. And like I said, Master Chief Ryland Reemy came to me in 2006 and said, I want to work for you for the rest of my life. And he's now been with me. We started the company in July of 20, 2006. Yeah, we're about to celebrate our 20th year. I love it. And I got two master chiefs and senior chief who run my company. And um, they that they do what they do because they understand what we're doing. They understand that they will benefit from the outcome uh because I share the wealth, I share the benefit.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

And uh There's nothing to hide.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yeah. The other part about what we're doing in the company is uh I tell people that what we do, Orion Solutions LLC, uh Defense Contractor. Defense contractor. We we we we're specific to the Department of the Navy. Uh we take old sailors, we put them on the podium in a Navy schoolhouse where they teach young sailors how to use their weapon systems and sensors so that those kids can grow up to be old sailors. We help those kids learn to fight their ships. And uh right now, in the last three or four years in particular, between the Red Sea and uh and uh uh the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf, these guys are getting shot at almost every day. And so far, we've you know, we've the kids we've trained have have done me proud.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

And that's been but that's you like that is why you love being a part of our mentoring program. That's why you love teaching at UNF, because you want to give back in the same way that your your company is giving back to that next generation of naval officers. I know our time is short, but I I do want to circle back just briefly because it is a line that working in sports media has been said to me more than once work smarter, not harder.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Well, that's a failure in leadership. Yeah, that's a failure in leadership. You solve the problem. That's basically what I'm saying. I can't solve this for you, you have to solve it, and I have no I have no care about the quality of the solution, just find a solution. And oh, by the way, I've now had passed that off to you. So if you fail, not on me. So again, we talked about tiger teams versus uh dragon teams.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

I love that. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Uh working, you know, do more with less. No, that you fail. You have not provided me the tools, the time, the train, do my job. That's the three T's. That's it. That's it as a leader. And so if if, and I told my guys, if I if I get over tasked by my my boss, my job is to tell him that no, we can't do it. Uh, if you've if if we've been running too hard and we and I'm I'm now sleep deprived where it's dangerous, well, perfect example. 9-11. Uh, we were underway uh off the coast and we were doing a final evaluation program, uh, problem. It's a it's a it's a war, it's a war game basically, uh, with inspectors on board and instructors on board, and it's a prerequisite to going out to do the next level of training with the battle group. And we should have done it several months earlier, but our schedule didn't permit it. So we're doing it the morning, we're getting underway to go do the next 9-11 happens. I get a call. Ryland Remy comes to me and says, Captain, you need to come here. So I called the head inspector, the head assessor, and I said, Here's the deal. Word of this is gonna get around the crew pretty quickly. When that happens, these guys that are doing something very dangerous now will be distracted and someone will get hurt. So you tell me when I've got a C minus. When you tell me when we've reached the level where it's passing, and then we're gonna stop and get off my ship because I am not going to go through this kabuki dance for higher authority, where I now have real-world considerations that might impact the safety and security of my sailors and the productivity, absolutely, because now you're not even gonna get accomplished what you want to accomplish.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

That's right, because you're compromised, but it takes leadership to say, no, we are not going to achieve the end result. Yeah, so we're gonna have to adapt, and that's okay. Yep, that's how we get to the ultimate solution.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

I don't need an A. Just just I didn't need an A to get through college either. C students are running the world, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Hey, listen, the UNF students are gonna be watching this, so for what it's worth, but I can talk to you all day, Captain.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Yeah, okay. Yeah, thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

I'm getting the high sign from Brandon over there. We appreciate the studios for hosting us and appreciate you having me on your show. Appreciate you joining the UNF Leadership Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

A lot of fun. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Thanks for listening to the UNF Leadership Podcast. For more episodes like this, be sure to subscribe to our YouTube and podcast channels. This has been a presentation of the Taylor Leadership Institute at the University of North Florida. Woo