Deep Calls to Deep: Reading Together
Going deep together into the texts that have called to our spirits.
Deep Calls to Deep: Reading Together
Part 3: Darkness Visible
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Warning: This discussion contains reference to severe depression, suicidal ideation, self-harm, and addiction. Tom and I wrap up our three part discussion about William Styron's Darkness Visible. We really get into some of the complexities of having a dual diagnosis, specifically both addiction and depression, and how any underlying conditions of addiction come on stronger than ever after self-medicating with alcohol, and / or one's drug(s) of choice, stops.
https://youtu.be/wqxZgj4b4ms
Intention without intention
I'm well, thank you. Good to see you, guy, but great to see you. Looking forward to getting back into it. Yeah. It's a beautiful Sunday morning here. Sunday morning. Let's talk about depression. Right, but and sobriety. So that's you know, that's the main thing that we're you know trying to work ourselves to is the solution, the uh the sort of like uh other side of this, and it's a little bit more complicated for people who are, as they say, in a dually diagnosed, which uh so we have the addiction bit with alcoholism, but then there's also the um depression uh bit uh and that diagnosis as well. So we're kind of like looking at you know, how do these two interfere with each other, how they sometimes like complement each other and work together? Absolutely. So, like how uh how do we navigate this rough terrain? And I guess starting off um is a terminological issue that uh Styron brings up, which is the term depression itself. So I don't know if you wanted to start us off with some thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_00You know, first off, I you know, the and it's not one size fits all, right? You know, overcoming depression and your path to get through it, but there are some similarities I hope that people can find in our story here today. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's kind of going back a little bit for the first and second part. I just kept saying I was in pain and pain, and you know that that's great, but a big part of this book is his idea that the term depression doesn't quite capture so wide-ranging that people get depressed, but it doesn't encompass like the depression I went through, or different levels. So uh he came up with some terms throughout the book that really stuck out to me that kind of more described what I was feeling, uh, and just a few of them uh black tempest, nice suffocating gloom, yeah, emotional havoc, unfocused dread, uh right, desolation, insidious meltdown, mm-hmm, and this one anguish devouring the brain.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so a very it's uh I think the the thing you're at least that I'm struck with by a lot of those um terms, uh first of all, is just like how you know literary they are, how well how how well um named they are poetically almost rather than medically in that in that in that sense. So the the term depression, um, you know, he says it's kind of like seems like just like a small dip or something like that in the road, you know.
SPEAKER_00Melancholy. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02Something that just yeah, right, right. It's but it doesn't like um, I don't know, it belies how how difficult the uh experience of it actually is and how intense it is. Especially since also with on the depression, you s think about like a uh, I don't know, like a temporary uh slowing down, maybe, or like a lethargy. Yeah. Um, you know, like but what he's talking about is an intensity, especially with the terms like tempest. And he says at one point that you know it would have been more aptly named as a brainstorm, but that term was already taken because you know it means like coming up with good ideas or whatever for that's right, let's all do exactly brainstorm ideas about you know a project or something like that. But this type of storm, um, you know, aptly described by him as um, you know, a tempest, just uh something incredibly intense. So it's almost like the opposite of what you would get, uh, you know, understanding it as lethargy, yes, uh, or whatever. It's debilitating, and so you might have to stay in bed or whatever and not be able to like operate very well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but it's very powerful and active in the body. Yeah. Um it is like these verbs, like it's constantly working on me. It's devouring the brain, it's suffocating me.
SPEAKER_02It's yeah, you described it as like a suffocating room, which reminded me philosophically of you know Sartre's um nausea where everybody's just stuck in this you know room. You know, it's like kind of like that's you know, would be your thoughts, just all just like cooped up and like you know, just driving each other insane, right?
SPEAKER_00Being in a bar watching a bucko buckey's game with a bunch of Ohio State fans. That's that's my yeah, that's yours.
SPEAKER_02That's that's well, okay. And they're beating Michigan. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Which doesn't happen anyway, yeah, no, too often. All right. So yeah. So that I just like the terms and uh and uh I'll say it again, that's what uh interests me with this book is first time, like these terms like, yes, exactly, exactly, exactly. So good. Um then we then there's the suicide part.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, which I should mention as we get into suicide. I'll put a little trigger warning thing or whatever at the uh on in the show notes, but let's do that here now. We're gonna talk about suicide. So um, you know, if that's something that you um, you know, aren't ready to really get into, whoever may be listening, or um, if that's something that you know you need help with, um, we're gonna put some information in that wonderful.
SPEAKER_00You know, I was I was going down the street the other day, and this guy in this pickup truck had this banner in his back window said 22 a day. So I looked that up and it was veterans, uh uh military veterans, 22 commit suicide a day. Like suicide is a huge problem. Huge problem.
SPEAKER_02It's now also the um number one killer of uh teens and you know young adults, whereas car accidents used to be the number one killer, believe it or not. It's like replaced car accidents, suicide. Yeah, and then a lot of it gets put on like the pressures of social media and that kind of stuff. Um, you know, but like one of the things that we've talked about is just like the causal network um are is probably an over-determined sort of like network in the sense that it's often uh hard to pin it down to one cause alone, but like you have like I don't know, cascading uh um uh causes that sort of like affect and catalyze the next um recursion where they feed or it's a feedback loop into each other, all kind of different um you know, causality. And the main you know breakdown that we're gonna be talking about after you know we kind of get into this suicide bit is this distinction between medical, we already kind of already talked about this medical determination, medical causal, uh physiological, I guess you could say, uh sort of determinations about you know its causal um structure, but also uh the more um I don't know, uh spiritual, uh psych psychological, perhaps in the classical sense of psychology, psuke, the the soul, or something like that. So um, you know, there's those two can be complementary sometimes, but they can also be um at loggerheads and seemingly contradictory at times. So um it's it's it's hard to get a handle on because there seems to be so many contributors, so many possible like explanations, and then at the same time, no explanation. So it's it's you know, because there's of the overcrowded field or whatever, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And they're all unique to each person. Yeah. Um one's more, one's less. You know, this causal, and for me, like I was really into self-pity. I uh that was one of my um feelings of depression, not feelings, um, I don't know, factors of depression is um a behavior then, so a mental behavior. So and it would like I would feel down about my not having a good day at work, oh I'd get really hard on myself, and then that would lead into, but then you know, I'd have a bad relationship, bad time outing with my kids, then that like it would just build on itself till you're at the point, it's like I have all this evidence that I'm worthless. I've had all these you know instances where I proved my worthlessness, and it just boom, boom, boom, and just until you get to the point where um suicide is like it starts to feel like the only option. Absolutely, like I can't do it.
SPEAKER_02And um, you know, as we start down this like section of the conversation, for him, for Styren, um, you know, again, it was very hard to decide kind of like what kicked everything off. But he says, you know, and this is in relation to our you know concern with sobriety, 40 years of alcoholism probably um you know was a help in the same way it was a help to us, like it helped it it operated as a symptomatic coping device, something that worked to some degree. Um, but like he had a very bizarre experience a lot of people don't have, which is like it actually physiologically stopped working for him. Alcohol, somehow, one day he went to do what he normally did, which was drink, yep, um, because that was his coping device with all you know this um you know self-loathing or whatever else, he could alleviate a lot of it, especially like his general general anxiety kind of bit, um, by drinking. All of a sudden, one day, this tool, you know, that for the most part has been working, stops working. And so, like, all of us experience that to some degree or another. Uh, you know, we talk about consequences, we talk about hitting our body, we talk about unmanageability.
SPEAKER_00Doesn't everybody who decides to get sober?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think for sure. His experience is like really he became ill whenever he would try to drink again. And like, um, and so like he physically, like, well, he even says, I forget the name of the drug, but anti-abuse or something like that.
SPEAKER_00Anti-abuse.
SPEAKER_02He said he all of a sudden his body started manufacturing um anti-abuse, basically, like at without without taking the pill, you know, or whatever. Um, and the thing about uh anti-abuse or whatever has always been a weird controversy within recovery, um, because like even if it makes you sick, like with anti-abuse, you have to like take it. Um, so that but like, you know, and then a lot of people it doesn't work for because they don't take it, or you know, or they take it and they drink anyway, and like all kinds of things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think like getting sober is more than just let me take this pill so I don't drink anymore. Like getting sober, the alcoholic will drink again, and you know, I mean not all of them, but for well, I'd say for me, it get it's a lot deeper than that. It's not just a pill, it's not my willpower, my action tonight, it's it's much more encompassing than that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so this gets us back into the medical model versus the spiritual model.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um this uh, you know, let me one more on suicide. I came across this in the book, and uh the pain, he writes the pain of severe depression is quite unimaginable to those who have not suffered it, and it kills in many instances because its anguish can no longer be born. And that can tie into our sobriety, uh, one of the things we want to talk about sober, to medicate or not to medicate, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. Um I think that uh because the people go ahead. Sorry.
SPEAKER_03No, go see what you're gonna say.
SPEAKER_00The people that yeah are we gonna talk about incomplete mourning? Was that part of the?
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah, that's that's that's a more spiritual understanding. Incomplete mourning, yeah. Yeah, is that part of the increase? Maybe we'll make a transition here. I'll I'll just by thinking about his situation. So for Styren, you know, like he was no longer able to use um pausing.
SPEAKER_00Is this our transition? Oh, sorry. What do you mean what do you mean? No. Are we gonna like talk about suicide, finish that up, and then move to this uh sobriety? Um, when when does incomplete mourning come in?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, it will it throughout, but like we'll we'll get to it more. I was just saying that you know we're gonna transfer to uh we let's talk about his particular situation. It's gonna provide a kind of natural but uh I think that's okay. Can you cut that out? Of course, yeah. Um what I'll do is I'll send this to you if you can is there a time you can write down because I have an I have an idea, like 15 minutes.
SPEAKER_0014 minutes 14 minutes in.
SPEAKER_02Okay, because that one will start a little bit before. Yeah, just keep that running, that's fine. Um I don't know where oh there it is, it's down there. Yeah, 14. Alright, yeah, so 14. So if you can write that down on your pad or something like that. So and then just uh I'll try to remember that. No, I'll I'll wait. Alright, cool. Yeah, because I don't want to stop because it like it um it's better just to it's better just to cut it out. So anyway, um, so yeah, for the uh for Styrin, you know, like once he um could no longer drink, uh his main coping mechanism was taken, and now he's like jettisoned into this uh you know super depression. And so that's not also too dissimilar from many people, you know, when they first get sober, and one of the reasons why they go back is because to an extent, like they don't have this natural anti-abuse. So like they're gonna go back because like they hit this, I would say, more primary condition, even more primary than the alcoholism, even though we could say duly diagnosed, and a lot of alcoholics want to say their only thing was drinking, and so that like you know, and alcoholics anonymous is just for you know and stopping drinking and that's it, or whatever, and they're you know, that's you know, a lot of times there's a bunch of hiding that goes on there where it's like, you know, I just had to stop drinking, and now I'm like this unbelievable like human being because I just don't drink now or whatever, right? So I just need AA to you know to not drink.
SPEAKER_00Um AA is that is not AA, like that's that's a part of AA. And we talked about in the meeting last yesterday. Yeah, the majority of it is a design for living. Yeah, that's right. Not just stopping drinking, there's so much more than that.
SPEAKER_02Well, again, with the kind of like constant juxtaposition of the medical model versus the spiritual model, AA tries to run you know, right in the middle of it in a lot of ways, so that you have this medical condition, and in the big book, there's like descriptions of it, like incorrect medical descriptions of it as an allergy. But like, but like whatever. It's uh the um um, you know, there's enough literature out there now that we understand the physiological mechanisms, like operate and conditioning and whatnot. But like the um the deal here is that you um are always trying to figure out like, can I get away with, and most people would if they could, a totally medical solution. And there it seems like there's more and more things coming online now medically where not just anti-abuse but other drugs that seem to like be able to you know reduce the problem to a merely um physiological issue. Maybe that'll work, maybe that won't, and it does work for some people. Like, I always want to say I'm never gonna be one of these AA guys who say, like, our way or the highway, you know, you you go out there and like screw off or whatever. Um you know, for me, AA was the last sort of like stop, you know, I uh it just nothing else was working. Which brings me to this, you know, final juxtaposition transition into the spiritual side of things, you know, the more classically psychological, you know, from the Greek Sukay, having to do with the soul, kind of um mental in the more spiritualized sense, not in the medical sense, okay, um, of uh of the problem. And so, you know, we're gonna be just talking constantly back and forth between medical understandings and um psycho-spiritual understandings, but the AA hard line is that you have to have a spiritual experience in order to get sober, defined variously. So, you know, like that's it has to be some kind of like almost classical religious experience though of a transformation. So, um, and that transformation involves a again a very classic history of religion's move, uh, which is you know, this surrender to a power higher than yourself, and like and asking for some sort of alleviation. Um, and again, you know, this comes in many forms. Comes in many forms, and like and it's really problematic for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00Um use your word, yeah, religion.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yes, right, yeah. So um it's it there that which is like so much of like why in recovery programs there's like trying to disguise, at any rate, or or or like you know, the the religious aspect of it because like there is this spiritual part.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think people get jammed up with the you know the if it will even say it, if it's religion based, yeah, people would walk away to it.
SPEAKER_02It's religion based, but it is, but they they come in. It's spiritual, yeah, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00Like the spiritual work for me. Yeah, that's right. It's like all right, I can do I can do the spiritual um uh the spiritual connection, and it comes in many forms. Like, we know guys that have 20 years sobriety and they can't describe their higher power, yeah. They don't know what it is, yeah. They just know there's a power greater than themselves, it's not them. Yeah, and I think that really helped me off in the group, yes, yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_02The fellowship, whatever.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah, or a mother nature, yeah, uh something. Yeah, and that's what helped me get through it. Just this, like steps two and three is where they get jammed up, but you know, step I think that's why they put that step two in before step three is like I came to believe uh the power girl myself could restore me sanity, yeah, you know, and that kind of eases into turning my will over. Yeah, and I didn't see that for a long time. But and we'll get into this later, it's like coming out of this depression, looking back. Well, it goes directly when I was in it, and you're saying we're closest to our higher power there, and when the dark night's there, I couldn't see it. But it's like this weird thing, it's this really cool spiritual thing that's happening to me is I'm looking back now and I kind of see it. Yeah, yeah. Um, so it's different for everyone, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And again, um, the the darkness visible uh title like hints at this poetical spiritual understanding versus you know a more medical thing. So in AA, and this is kind of like um gonna transition us into his experience with uh medicine, um it the hard line when I first I mean I I had tried to get sober many times before I so like even when I, you know, I'm not I am old, but not that old, but like you know, so I'm not like an old timer yet, maybe.
SPEAKER_00No, you're you're young stud.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right. I'm young stud. And the um, you know, it's so getting sober in the early nineties, there was a hard line against medical solutions. So not only anti abuse was like really looked down on. But like antidepressants for one. Because once you start, once you stop drinking, um, you are going to be depressed, like regardless. And so because like you know, you you already were, but like things are gonna come out now. So like all of the, you know, and this is that incomplete mourning bit, yeah, like all of that mourning, all of that emotional growth that you needed to be, you know, working out and working through uh was thwarted because of you know drinking. The kind of cliche thing they say in a program of recovery is like um you know, whenever you started using, you know, the drug, um, that's or you know, alcohol, that's the moment at which you stopped growing, you know, emotionally. Oh, yeah. So like if you started drinking when you were 12, then like you know, you're the you're um the emotional age of a 12-year-old. I don't I don't agree with that because I think I had big plenty of really bad coping devices when I was 12 and I wasn't drinking when I was 12. So like I I you know there was a lot of growing up that you know needed to happen that wasn't happening because I had something that worked better than dealing with things. So um there's there's that bit of the whole um you know journey around it.
SPEAKER_00I think there is some maybe some kind of some validity in it, you know. Um so I yeah, I drank. Uh I knew I had an issue. I had I would try to get sober a couple years later. I think I had two years when I was living in Chicago, but I was miserable, and I get seven months, and because I just knew it was an issue. I thought, you know, with this depression going on that this is this, like you were saying earlier, this this combination of depression, alcoholism, what's the solution? But and then I discovered marijuana. I didn't I didn't start smoking marijuana until I was like mid-40s. Oh okay, stupid, whatever. And then uh because then I could, but I so my I transitioned from alcohol to marijuana, and that's when like non-alcoholic beers were really starting to come out and they're different flavors, and so I would drink nine alcoholic beers a night and sit in the garage and just smoke endless amount of bowls, yeah, getting this powerful like medical marijuana. Now it's recreational. Yeah, but I got my license, they give those out. Yeah, go to the dispenser area, you get like 22% THC or whatever, you know, not this ditch weed that my dad smoked, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, cool, this is the solution, you know. I can exhibit the behavior, escape this pain. Yeah, and but even with marijuana, it was even like a little more detrimental to me because I could like smoke in the morning, go to work, operate, you couldn't smell it on me, you know, I could drive. That's what I thought. Um and then finally, when I reached ultimate decision, like it just like he says, it just stopped working. It just stopped. And his was a physical reason, maybe some psychological for sure in there. Maybe. But for me, it was psychological, it's just like I it doesn't stop working. Just like uh people in our in the program where drinking just doesn't work anymore, and reaching this level of pain, it's the pain level that you have to hit, I believe, too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then it's like so it doesn't work, and now and now what? You know, I you know for me, it like really did feel like I lost my primary relationship. Absolutely, like like the most you know important relationship I had uh when I stopped drinking, um, because like it just had gotten me through so much. I thought at any rate, you know.
SPEAKER_00My mom said who's in recovery, she's like, You you had to do what you had to do. That was how you cope, that's how you got through your depression or your ADHD for maybe for you, kind of. You had to do what you had to do. Um, and that's what I think for me, the bottom wasn't why I decided to come in AA. The bottom was during sobriety.
SPEAKER_02And that's uh that that's like I'm really glad we're talking about this for anybody who's early in sobriety to know, like, yeah, um you might not have butterflies flying out your ass. They talk about like uh pink cloud and all that kind of stuff, and there are people that experience that for sure at different times. The problem is that you might have it being sober the first 30 days, the first year, whatever, and it doesn't always and it doesn't have to, but a lot of people like feel that pink cloud like move away and dark clouds, the tempest rolls in, and it's important to talk about that and be prepared for what that what that is and what that's like, in as much as anybody can be. Because it's generally at that point when people decide this isn't gonna work, and they try to just go back. And interestingly, in the book, like his like deepest um I don't know, the deepening, let's say, uh, to the deepest point of his depression, where he became, you know, just like suicidal and you know just wanted to die, and that was it. And he goes in a big section of the book about people who had uh famous people, especially who had committed suicide, and like just the the rhetoric around suicide where it's like this thing where it's like this obviously dishonorable thing to have done, this hurtful thing to have done to your family, and this all the kind of stuff. But his kind of like you know, going through how the mental state you get into, like, you're really not like thinking ethically at that point about the people around you. You just like need the the pain to end, or whatever, or whatever ethical statement makes about the value of life, or all that stuff, it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't matter, it's just so that's it, yeah, it's so intense. I have the pain has to end. I can't take it anymore. But yeah, you know, I have kids, and uh, you know, but it just it just doesn't matter to some people. Um, and I think that is maybe a part of relapse, is like you get into the steps, like for the first time for me, I saw how selfish I was. I had to really look at my past behavior, it could be depressing. It can really, really it could be rough having to do it.
SPEAKER_02And it does like stops the damage you've caused to your cars.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, and it was shocking to me. Like, is that behavior I exhibited all those years? Yeah, it was shocking to me to see the truth, and it was there, and it's like you don't feel good about discovering that. That's right. It just goes deeper in the city. Where's it at? That pink cloud, that pink cloud left me at three months. Okay, uh, it was gone. Um, because of just seeing the hard truth of my life and the damage I caused to other people, to myself, and the fears and the regrets, and uncovering all of that. Yeah, holy cow, yeah, that's hardcore. Yeah, yeah. It's hardcore, and I think that's why I respect the men and women who are in recovery. They are hardcore. Yeah, yeah. They walked, always ran from the pain with drugs, with marijuana and alcohol, and anger, and control, yeah, all of that. Yeah, sobriety. I stopped in sobriety and turned around and walked towards the pain. Yeah. Because I knew I had to. Yeah. And people and AA, everybody's in these meetings, you know, that's got some sobriety, they've done the same thing. Yeah. So freaking baller that those people have so much respect for people in recovery. Yeah. Because I can only imagine it was the same for them. And it's the hardest thing I've done in my life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. And uh, you know, and a lot of those people will have this sort of like ambiguous relation to what they did and what their higher power did. So that's almost impossible for them and for us uh to like know, you know, what was who was doing what. But it also speaks, you know, from an AA perspective to like the importance of having some sort of higher power involved because you need something, you know, bigger than you to kind of like, and you know, an AA, it is kind of like a sense that there's not just something bigger than you, but that wants something better for you also, and is going to like you know, intervene when necessary, even uh that you know, in whatever subtle uh ways or synchronistic ways or serendipitous ways, you know, that are gonna, you know, do for you what you can't do for yourself, as we put it. Um, and then again, any one of those moments, any one of those times is like totally impossible to tell like who's doing what. Yeah. Because when people go back out, then the question is like, well, did the higher power not do you know, it's just like this classical problem of evil sort of like theological question as to like, oh well, you weren't praying hard enough, you weren't going to enough meetings, whatever, that kind of stuff. And that may be true. Like, we you know, we read what we sow kind of a thing. That's true. We have not always like you know what I mean. Like a lot of times people are doing those things and things still go wrong. So there, like the thing is, is like it is a no guarantees kind of a deal, frankly. And and so like you gotta be real careful about taking credit because you don't know like what where the credit is, like for any of it. I don't mean you specifically, I just mean people in general, you know what I mean. And so this is like something that you're only gonna get in a spiritual program, and you're not gonna get in a medical program at all. Like you get you get a relative amount of clarity where it's like, you know, you took this medicine, you got better, or whatever. And so, like, um, you know, I think mostly in AA, most people subscribe to this kind of like ambiguous position of like neither, you know, not cutting off either side. Yeah. And like, you know, part of what I was saying before is like in the 90s, there were people who said, you know, absolutely no medicine, and there are still, there is still that voice, you know, within AA. And one of the reasons has to do with something we talked about a lot about last time, like thinking of this as darkness visible or as he talks about incomplete mourning, more of a psycho-spiritual kind of an uh understanding or explanation. When we call this the dark night, um, you know, like people who don't believe in the in medicines or antidepressants and sobriety, you're not you know really sober or whatever kind of thing, it's because you are um you know taking the sharp edges off of the darkness in some kind of a way, or like you know, like the terms I've heard are like, you know, there's this glean to like the world on antidepressants, which you know is not true, but like that that that like disallows the full descent into the darkness that you need because in AA we talk a lot about bottoms, and like you have to hit that absolute bottom, and you're never gonna really bottom out if you don't, and this kind of stuff. Um, so this kind of like puts us right into the heart of a tremendous controversy that continues to go on, frankly. I think for the most part, for most people, it's like kind of like you seek a medical medical professional for your depression and whatever, and then you you know come to a. And it says that in the big book. It does, yeah. So there's that kind of a there's that kind of an approach is the most common, but there still is a strong voice of uh of this medical bit.
SPEAKER_00And it affected me, you know. I thought about it like I was searching for answers, and there are people in NA who who feel antidepressants are god blockers, like you're saying. You have to reach that level of pain to uh uh you have to do that to discover, I don't know, to have a spiritual connection. Um and the antidepressants kind of not prevent you, probably prevent you from feeling the full effect of that bottom, is what uh these people got.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and there's a lot of suspicion and much of it valid about pharmaceutical companies and like quick, easy medical, you know, remedies for things. And like I had experience with that. I mean, I think I said last time, like before I got sober or in between bouts of sobriety on and or or and different times, I you know, saw doctors for you know antidepressants and and those kinds of things, tried every possible combination and all that kind of stuff. And you know, there that was my strong stance at one point. Like this is like uh a scam, and like that's this is not you know uh a way to treat depression. I was believing it too. And very interestingly, like so Styron kicks off like the deepest part of his depression by trying to drink again, and and it doesn't work again, and it just like shoots him real deep, and then you know, into this suicidal, suicidal ideation, and then uh you know, eventually to be institutionalized. And um he says at that point, kind of interestingly, one, that he was seeing a really ineffectual psychiatrist who was who was who was uh prescribing him bullshit, like kind of like he thought of them both like the things that the psychiatrist said and the meds as sort of platitudinal, in the sense that they were just like, here's what the DSM says, like that's you know what I mean, like you know, or whatever. And I I guess I don't I didn't know this, but the one of the things that he was taking, I think for sleep, because he couldn't sleep, was one of the horrible, you know, side uh well, symptoms of of depression, which is you you you can't sleep even though you're you know my goodness, yeah, yeah. And it's it's really you know, it's it's madness inducing. Um, you know, well, I guess this is now a well-known thing, but I guess this drug that they called halcyon. I love these names. Like I'm just like I like, I mean, he would he run he ran through some of the names. I like I could not believe some of the names of these things, but anyways, I forgot a lot of them, but like halcyon sticks in my mind just because you know, like denotative, it means like a time like of innocence. So it's like back to this like idea that we talked about last time about primary versus secondary naivete. Yeah, yeah. So it's like this return to some sort of like childlike um state, I suppose, was what it's supposed to reference, perhaps. But like, you know, and and um, you know, so and it's a sleep med or whatever, I think, but it was like total and and the and the guy said he was like really flippant, like you know, take as much as you want. Yeah you said you had experiences similar. Yeah, I did. So like I had experiences where I thought I I will I still feel like I was really misdiagnosed, I because I wasn't depressed, like I did not have clinical depression, yeah. I have ADHD or whatever, um, and you know similarities, yeah, and whatever, you know. Yeah, exactly. So like I and I just felt like everybody wanted to throw antidepressants at me. And and and because there are depressing things about being ADHD for sure, but interestingly, Steyron says, like, he at least he articulates it differently throughout, so there's not a consistent articulation, but he says, like, he had at that point reached such a bad level that there was Nomed that was gonna help him, and so then he just said it was like institutionalization, the sense of like being somewhat safe there, even though it was infantil infantilizing to be there, but like he feels like he you know um it helped him, give gave him time to get better, basically, yeah. Where he wasn't gonna like be able to really easily at any rate um kill himself. Uh so took a little bit of the stamp. Yeah, that's right. And then, you know, so like he actually winds up being a bit ambivalent on the medicine thing, yeah. Although he I think in the end, you know, he uses or used antidepressants after is to kind of stabilize the situation. And and so you whole can of worms here. Um I'm interested to hear what you gotta say, Tom.
SPEAKER_00It's a huge, it's a it's a big thing. There's a couple things. So it's understanding this level depression. Again, that's why I like this book because it gets people to understand. I went to my family doctor, I said, Hey doctor, I'm feeling like dog crap. I want to get on some medication. Oh, what do you want to get on? Well, butrian. Okay, here's a script. I'm like, really? Okay, cool. Yeah, so that's like is evidence for these uh God blocker people is like, see?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00He's just pushing meds on you without any understanding of the stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yep.
SPEAKER_02And um then And there are a lot of people on the program on straight opiate pain medicine.
SPEAKER_00Really?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and the that, you know, there's a lot of criticism of that too. Oh, yeah, I guess so, like, there's like the idea too, like, yeah, you will throw out your back unconsciously in order that you can, you know, get a script for whatever you're on. It's like, hey, I'm following the script. And there is a lot of recovery, like um institutions, organizations, uh sober houses that have like relations with like, I don't know, almost pill mill type dudes, like, you know, who are gonna write whatever. That are in sobriety. Yeah, yeah. So like there's there are all kind of scammy stuff that you you can see how the god blocker people, you know, get their get their fuel for their fire.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, you know, it's like the longer I'm sober, the more I kind of understand that, but you know, I I disagree.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, though you were talking about the danger a bit. So I love it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the danger of it is so I it's it's for me anyway. I think I've talked to other people that have been on antidepressants, they want to get off once they start feeling, once I start to feel good on antidepressants, I get off of it. There's this desire in me to do it med-free, to do it pure. And I've had some conversations where I it's not unique to me. There are other people that once they start feeling good, they get off their medication, and it's good for a minute for me, but then it just homeboy visits back again. Yeah, dark night. So um there's that part of it. Um, and I was I got off meds uh in sobriety because I was because I didn't have, I was like going to family doctor, he's like, Yeah, take this one. I'm like, well, it's not working, so maybe I know meds will work, maybe it is a god blocker, you know. Um there's this big emphasis on developing a spiritual connection in in AA. So maybe it is affecting that spiritual connection, and maybe I have to get closer to God the darker I feel, you know. So it's just all this swirl.
SPEAKER_02I grow at the speed of pain is another uh the what? I grow at the speed of pain is another AA saying, and so it's almost like if you prevent the pain, then you're preventing. And it goes it does go to this idea too, like that we're talking about, like incomplete mourning. Like somehow you if you have something that uh uh like staves off the mourning, uh it's such a it's such a thin line though. It is like like like um dangerous, it's very dangerous. So I'm sorry, I I just wanted to kind of frame it a little bit in that in that context, but go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I understand like hitting the bottom uh uh in order to make it and for an alcoholic to stop drinking is dramatic. It's a dramatic change. Uh so what causes that change? Well, this uh indescribable amount of pain that we all you know go through uh when we decide to get sober. Um and if if if this medication is slowing that, but it's like there's this alcohol marijuana pain, and then there's this depression pain. Yeah. And it's kind of like this mix of both of them. And what is uh uh no meds at all will help with all that. Well, I got this, you know, I'm not gonna get better if I kill myself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right, exactly, yeah, yeah. That's and that's the day, that's the very real danger, uh, which has happened in AA. Absolutely. Um, because suicides and sobriety. Absolutely, and and I just mean specifically as a result of people being told to get off their nets. Right. So that's right.
SPEAKER_00And there's some influential people in AA. I mean, that's a that's that is a big message. Uh-huh. And my friends in the program would be like it just they don't believe in that, you know. But I would and also it could turn you back onto your whatever your drug of choice is too.
SPEAKER_02Uh because like you get off whatever. Whatever, you know, now now no more god blockers or whatever, and now the full force of everything is there. And you yeah, you're just you're gonna be able to do that. Here's where my heart power to the uh to the med to the whatever you were doing to self-medicate.
SPEAKER_00Here's where my I really can't believe I didn't relapse. Yeah. In that first and second year because of the pain. Exactly what you're talking about. I I have to find some relief. And me not relapsing, sure, I didn't open the bar door and go in, but it wasn't just me. Yeah. That's where I do have. I bel I believe, like looking back, that a higher power, my higher power was with me. Yeah. He, she, it, help me. Yeah. Was this was there when I was like, well, let's get into that.
SPEAKER_02Let's uh let's get into the home stretch here. Um the overcoming, the victory bit, like any any uh, you know, encouragement. I mean, uh, one of our best sayings is hope is found here. Like, what is what is that what is the what is the hope? Uh with all the necessary provisos about you know giving false hope and like making promises that you know may or may not come true. What what are what what does victory here look like? What is conquering this my disease flag?
SPEAKER_00Well, um I am out of it. Uh I my depression lasted. Thank you. My depression lasted from like three months, the pink cloud that was replaced by the Black Tempest, three months to 31 months. So it was 28 months of suffering. Jesus. Yeah. And it was last Thanksgiving. Like I was going to the holidays, and and and the last holidays were horrible. And I was prepped for it. They're like, this is a tough time. Yeah. For me, I was divorced. I didn't my recently. Yep. Lost house, lost the house, some relations, my family worked completely. I didn't see my kids. This guilt over, you know, and that's what it was. Sobriety. Like I had to watch Steve for the first time. It's like the guilt of leaving my family or abandoning my family, or you know, that's how I used to think. And it just like I went from living in Worthington with my kids and my wife and a job to freaking nothing. I mean, it's like, what the fuck just happened? Uh so anyway, but I had so anyway, dealing with all that and not going out drinking and just fucking facing it head on.
SPEAKER_02So this is the incomplete mourning part, which is like where you're looking at all of this mourning you need to do, in a sense. I mean, if I am I framing that wrong, I'm just trying to use his term, which I like I like his term. So I do too. I'm just trying to use his term. So no, does it apply to you? Is I guess what I'm asking?
SPEAKER_00It was a I've never mourned anything in my life. I mean, I'm like, what did you do to yourself, dude? Oh god, the self-hate, the self-pity, all that was just on me. But I didn't drink, I didn't go smoke. I knew, I just knew that wasn't an option. Yeah, I spent 54 years, 40 years. I started drinking when I was 14. I got sober when I was 54. Yeah. 40 years of experiencing this pain and trying to remedy my depression with this and that and change and moving out of town. And I've had like four different careers, like this change, change, and just always it was just always going with me. So anyway, so three to but it took uh a sobriety, this kind of sobriety, and working the steps and having a sponsor and this whole program recovery.
SPEAKER_02So you would say spiritual solution plus medical solution. Plus medical. So kind of like work together.
SPEAKER_00Yes, so I got with a I finally found a psychiatrist who was really willing to work with me. And that is important with the meds is uh finding someone who understands. I was going to therapy, so I was like psychiatrist, psych psychological psychologist. Clinical psychologist. Yeah, therapist, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was doing everything, but I finally found the the doctor who was working with me on meds. He really understood what I was going through, and we would try. I tried four different, we tried four different uh medicines, and all each of those at different dosages. Like he wanted to start low and to avoid the side effects, to lessen the side effects, and it was like two weeks at a time on that dosage. Hey, doctor, it's not working. Then we'd increase it and stay at that dosage for uh two weeks. So it's it takes time. That's what we're talking about the last time. Like, you gotta give this time, and um and so finally it started clicking. So now that I got the meds, then the spiritual connection. I was developing the spiritual connection. Um the the cloud just started, like he talks about Styron, talks about it, like it mysteriously comes in and mysteriously goes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that this like inability to like attribute like determinative causes to it. It's it's like very frustrating on the one hand, but like so like when we're when we're talking exactly what I'm talking about. When we're talking about it, we're talking about like a lot of different factors all at once, right?
SPEAKER_00I just yeah, so it's like, well, and then like I felt guilty a little bit. I'm like, well, it's just the meds. Finally got on the meds, I'm out of this. Well, look at all the work I put in there, and I've been thinking about that, reflecting on that, and it's just like, no, it's not just the meds, they're part of it. Being sober is the biggest part of it. Um and developing my and going through the steps and all of that, overcoming my fears, and not overcoming them, but kind of replacing my fears with faith is what kind of happened to me. Um uh uh in the meds and the gratitude that I learned in AA to really, and from you, especially Marty. Like Marty, you've been such a big part of my recovery.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, bro, and you're a part of my recovery.
SPEAKER_00I really am, really.
SPEAKER_01My man, you're you're a huge part of my recovery.
SPEAKER_00So thank you. Yeah, and like you've taught me. You're like you're like the kindest, most caring per one of the most kindest caring persons I know. I know you don't like to hear Marty, but you have a big influence on a lot of us. Thank you, brother. Um, so you helped me and and the program helped me just feel gratitude. I never had this feeling of gratitude. Like what I had, and just how special all these things are. It's just so cool. I I my relationships with my children is completely different. And I mean it just saved my life. And I I um last night I hung out with my son, he wants to hang out, he wants to do stuff, and we did, and it's just like one year ago, and sobriety just it was it was the complete opposite. I was just I was in a world of hurt, but anyway, um, it's kind of like it's sober. The sobriety is the first thing, it's the meds, it's the gratitude, it's my spiritual connection, it's my relationships, like I'm getting out of this self-centeredness that I saw that I was my entire life. Oh no, you weren't. I mean you did a lot of stuff, and I did do a lot of stuff. I was a good dad and all that, and but at the core, there was some selfishness in there. So I'm trying to get like how to see it and try to change my behavior. So now it's kind of like, what can I do for my mom? What can I do for my stepdad? What can I do for you? What can I do for my kids? You know, that's more what can I do for my yeah.
SPEAKER_02The spirituality of service, I think, is for me like the the real savior.
SPEAKER_00I'll tell you, my business partner Ron saved my life too. He stuck with me. Um he saved my bacon. And so now it's like, well, Ron, you helped me all those years now. I want to help you. And I am. And it feels great. You're a better, you're a better uh better dude, better coworker, better business owner, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's just like that. It's just it's like all those factors, Marty, yeah, of just it's so freaking cool now. Yeah, yeah. Like to feel normal again. Uh-huh. I drop my dog off, bean at my dog sitter, and I go down the street. She lived right across the street from where I used to live after my divorce and living on my own. And I go down, I drive those blocks, and I remember walking being around that neighborhood in absolute with anguish devouring my brain.
SPEAKER_02And now I go to the lost life, the nostalgia that just eats out eats away at you. Yeah. I mean, uh, that that was like always like the one thing I was always battling with you was your nostalgia. Uh, but like I don't think I did it like really actually in like a very appropriate way because I was projecting so much. Because like that was always my that was your experience. That was my enemy in my my entire life. It's like making up the way things used to be.
SPEAKER_00But there was some truth in it. Yeah, no, no, no. That got me to look back. I'm like, okay, here's the truth part about it. When I was back there, and I look back, um, and it's like, no, I was feeling depressed, and I was angry at my wife and my kids, and and that. What that I think the difference part of it is is like, well, if I was feeling like I'm feeling now, yeah, and I was back then, it would be different. It wouldn't be like this rosy and nostalgic outlook. Yeah, yeah. It in fact would be different and better. Yeah. That's my thinking.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because the one thing that nostalgia blocks out, like that is for me the god blocker, is it because it blocks out all the tough stuff that, yeah, like you're saying, you could now with the capacities you've built, but again, and I think you're saying this, you didn't you had to go through this to like even you know build begin to build those capacities to deal with oh yeah, to deal with the darkness, to deal with the hard stuff, to look at the the the things that aren't working, or whatever. Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But uh, as far as nostalgic concern, it wasn't rosy and beautiful and fun. Yes, yeah. Like that was the reality of it, yeah, yeah. But yeah, it could have been different with this that same situation, but you know, yeah, it takes what it takes, right? Yeah, uh, so I'll tell you when I go and I have a visual reminder of what it used to be like and what it feels like when I'm dropping my dog off, and just to feel normal. Like I feel normal, but it's more than that because of where I was. Yeah, right. You know, it takes on more normal takes on in an even greater.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you literally I'm an overuser of the term literally, like everybody who's like, you know, in their 20s, or I'm somehow in my 50s, but I love to use the word literally constantly. So, anyways, you you uh literally, I don't give a fuck, uh walked out of um hell. Uh, you know. You you bend back, and you know, one of the literary figures that he talks about in the book is Dante. You know, in the middle of my life, I find myself lost in a woods that was unfamiliar to me. I didn't know where I was. And where does he go next? He goes to hell and has to walk through there and take what he can from there, but he walks out.
SPEAKER_00So I was I was and do I have it licked? Like I have my alcoholism licked?
SPEAKER_02No. Right. That's and that's such a huge realization that and such a great endpoint. It's like this is not um you know, something like when we talk about conquering, it is a conquering. We talk about victory, it is a victory. Talk about hope, there is something to hope for, but um, it's not that you know you won't ever feel sad again. It's not that, you know, finally rainbows are, you know, shooting out your ass or whatever. Like it is that like life as it is, life on life's terms, as we say, is uh this is the way I put it, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is already sacred, um, including the bad stuff. Um, and so you know, like that ability to build the capacity, what I would say is the capacity of love, which is this radical inclusivity of like things as they are, which is what sometimes people call unconditional love. This ultimate ground that can house all of it and isn't afraid of any of it, although you know, we fall into fear all the time, but that um you know we know there's a way out of it, and we know that fear isn't telling the truth, just as like nostalgia isn't telling the truth, like that there is truth in whatever we're feeling, whatever emotion, yeah, and we can look at it and we can learn from it rather than being, you know, totally overcome uh, you know, by any of it again.
SPEAKER_00You know, I wouldn't change a thing. It is all part of I welcome all of it, even this really hard this difficult time of this depression, because it had I had to go through it, I had to go through a divorce, I had to go through all of this to get where I'm at now. It's just uh oh, it's my it's my it's my path I've walked. But my I got off this new path too, and it started with sobriety. And I would say for anybody, just give yourself time. Yeah. Just give yourself time. Communicate, work with people, talk. I love how it's coming out more and more, this mental health awareness and um um um the this discussion about suicide and bigger thing. It's like just I don't know. I I am so grateful. Um I'm just so grateful to be out of it, and I accept everything that's happened to get me away on that.
SPEAKER_03Well amen, what do you think? Did we do it? I love it. Alright, I think we did. Okay. I think we did too. So peace be with you, brother. Thanks for uh, thank you.