My War Gone By

Patrick and I discuss My War Gone By, I Miss It So by Anthony Loyd in relation to our journey's into sobriety and our mutual ADHD diagnoses. War was a sort of fantasy projection as well as a proving ground for Anthony Loyd, but what he proved to himself and shows to the reader is that almost nothing that is imagined or said about it is true, especially what he was led to believe about war and glory as it was depicted in the stories of his own military family's history. Patrick chose this book because it reflects struggles common to those attempting sobriety. In particular, recovery is a struggle to uncovered one's fantasy projections and to learn how to live without addictions that once helped to cover-over pain for which there where no other strategies at the time.

https://youtu.be/_Gn2l13UMzQ

Intention without intention

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Hey Patrick.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

Marty. How's it going, bud? Good. That's good. Weathering the storms outside. Yes. It was 70 years weather a couple days ago, and now it's um plus three and twenty-ish. Yeah. Good. We'll see.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

I don't understand it at all. It's the windiest place I've ever been, like in the spring. So like yeah, very bizarre. And I lived in the windy city, as you know. So um, but it wasn't called uh that for that reason. It was called windy because of the windbag politicians. A lot of people don't know that. So wow, fascinating. Well things you learned growing up in Chicago public schools and whatnot. So anyway, um, this is a project uh that uh we're working on, which is uh sober reading basically. Uh haven't totally decided on the you know final name of the channel. We got some preliminaries up there right now. I think it's called Reading and Recovery. And the idea is to connect um our journey into sobriety uh with you know literature that's outside of our recovery program or outside of AA, but is nonetheless meaningful to our recovery, especially if it had some role before uh, you know, this process. And then, you know, it's maybe um the difference and you know what it means to us now, or maybe it's been a consistent kind of a thing. Um, and so, anyways, this is uh just another way to um attack uh or not attack, maybe I don't need to use war metaphors here, but to uh get into our uh sobriety in a creative, hopefully fruitful way that produces, you know, just some new insights. Um, you know, now that we've been working that uh angle, that that program for a while. So, anyways, you picked out a book for us. What you got, uh Patrick, for us to think about it.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

Yeah, so um this is called My War Gone By, I Miss It So by Anthony Lloyd. Um, and what a gift it is to I read this book somewhere in my twenties, and um I think we had discussed you know prior conversations. My criteria for for any good piece of art is something that you think about from time to time, you know. Yeah, yeah. I've seen way more movies than I can count that I will I won't think about. Um ever again. You know, won't we ever think about again? Um and same goes for books, but this is one that I that I read. It really um had an effect on me in the in the immediate aftermath, and then throughout my life, I've gone back to it. I've recommended it to a couple of people. Um yeah, it really it really uh touched something in me. Um and I picked it because um where to begin. So I was uh in high school, really poor student, um, and um as a sober adult came to realize that I have had ADHD my my my whole life, and going back and looking at high school, it makes a lot of sense. You know, I was a risk taker, constantly in trouble, uh, could not focus, really found it hard to do any kind of studying, waited till the last minute for most things. Um, you know, I can remember one time though that I uh started, I think it was my sophomore year, and I was in an AP English class. I didn't know why I was there, and neither did any of my classmates. All I was sitting with all these smart kids in there, like, what are you doing here? Um, my I think uh I've always had some intelligence. I grew up in a house where we use big words and loved art and listened to all types of music and celebrated diversity and all those things. Um, but none of that was reflected in on my grade card. So um struggled to make it through high school, made it somehow, and then when I got to college, uh you know, there no North Star for me. Um I had no idea what I wanted to do. The only thing I I really did know with any any bit of confidence was that I've always loved history. Um, it's a good a good indicator, I think, to me is something that comes easily. And so while I struggled in almost uh all of the science classes I took and math courses, um, the ones that I did pretty well in were history and English. So um I decided uh there's big money in a history degree. So that's what I'm gonna do. Yeah, that's well known. Yeah, my my favorite were the the people you know who would ask, like, what are you gonna do with that? Are you gonna be a curator at a museum? Yeah, there you go. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, that was one of two options to conjure up. Yeah, you could either be the curator of one at one of a few uh museums in every city or a teacher. And uh I didn't I didn't really want to do either of those things at the time. I just wanted to have a have fun. And um, but I I did like reading. I fell in love with reading in high school and um didn't do a ton in college, but then when I got out, I read, had an opportunity to go back to my the my high school alma mater to help out a buddy coach a basketball team. And at some point it occurred to me, I'm a history major, I like I think I like working with kids. Um I imagine myself at some point, you know, in a classroom holding court, telling really interesting stories and having kids just you know uh completely focused and hanging on my everyday. Oh yeah, dead.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Robin Williams of uh history, uh but the history guy.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

Absolutely, absolutely. And so um, somewhere in there in my mid-20s, when I went back to my old high school and was coaching, I thought, hey, why don't I uh try my hand at teaching? So went back to school and really got, you know, one of the greatest parts about graduate studies that I found was that I didn't have to take any of that bullshit that I didn't like for the most part. And so I could I could take all these really interesting classes that I that I I loved. And another, you know, um super awesome, very predictable outcome with people with ADHD is I excelled when I went back. You know, I was uh um joined the Honor Society and was on the dean's list every semester um that I was there and um really leaned into it because I I found like I I really really love this and I started getting confidence. I'm getting I'm actually pretty good at school. And um around that time I got really into war memoirs, and I think there are a handful of reasons for that. Um but uh towards the top of the list was at the time, you know, I'm reading about these people I viewed as heroic characters in history, and I had a very romantic notion of what it would be like to lead people to be in war, um, to be in the military, and you know, reading, I think this is um a phenomenon as as old as time, you know, you could live vicariously through the people you were reading about. You could you could see the world through their eyes and their experience. And so I was really fascinated. And um, you know, as a poor college student, I was um spending a ton of time with the library, and I just progressively worked through all the memoirs that they had, um, especially ones on Vietnam. I was fascinated by Southeast modern or contemporary um Southeast Asian history, the Vietnam conflict, and then all the collateral things that happened after and before. And um so I read all that and then I ran out of options. And this book by Anthony Lloyd was on the show, and I think I probably read the jacket and thought this sounds pretty cool. I know next to nothing about the conflict in Bosnia. And um, from from what I could glean from the jacket, it it sounded interesting. So I read it and it was it was one of those books that uh hard to put down. And um, you know, free kids and pre-wife, you know, you could you could uh take out a book in a couple of days. And um I did that with this one. Um and I think the the connections that I started to make with Anthony Um, he also had a romantic notion of what war was like. And he was a young dude who, like me, was wandering. He really didn't know what he wanted to do. He was looking for some action, he was looking for excitement. Um you know, it comes out later in the book, his family life was pretty messed up. Yeah, mine, mine not uh not so much. I came from a really wonderful house, but um, you know, he had a a a really um complicated relationship with his father. I wouldn't describe my relationship with my father as complicated, but I've always sought his approval. And um, you know, there is this theme of redemption too with him in different forms. And I came to realize that particular time in my life, I was also thirsty for redemption. It might have looked a little different, but um I just really bonded with him in the in this period in his life, and I think it it's one of those things that kind of you know, a piece of art, a book in this case, falls into your lap at just the right time. And I think that that's what was happening um for me.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Yeah, and I appreciate you uh lifting this book up. I also uh ripped right through it, you know, couldn't put it down. Uh totally fascinating. And uh I would just say overall, I was sort of surprised that it's one of these memoirs that I didn't find to be super self-indulgent, as sometimes I memoirs can be at times, but like I was just really interested in him and you know, the revel is revelation of himself to us, uh, and I suppose to himself as well, um, especially this main revelation you talked about, which is you know, a romanticized version, which certainly, you know, uh ADHD folks such as us, not to diagnose him, I don't know, but like that is a thing, you know, like this tremendously romanticized fantasy version of something or another. Um, in this case, uh war having come from a kind of a storied family, it sounds like, with lots of military experience and lots of stories around the dinner table about uh the glories, frankly, of war, it sounded like. Um, and not a lot of, you know, kind of its downside. Um, but you know, and then you know, getting into the military and going off to um Iraq, but he, you know, kind of missing all the action at the end, you know, with the British military. Um, and then, you know, this super crazy move of going to Bosnia as things you know were popping off there and getting into the middle of it, uh without any uh, you know, he wasn't without any real intention, actually, except to just like be in a war. Uh which and you know, so like, you know, the only way to kind of like, I don't know, like pop the uh power of his you know fantasy about it, I guess, uh was to go and experience it. And um, you know, this is like about the most unromanticizable war you could think of uh on top of it. Yeah. A lot of ugliness. Um, and so yeah, and he, you know, and the the reason why, again, I liked it is like he was just very honest about all of that. Um, honest about like, you know, the real uh there's for sure there was a kind of like a banality of evil sort of uh uh uh an angle on things, but also just like um just this uh I don't know, baseness of of you know motivation. So that you know, whatever highfalutin reason you might think somebody would be fighting, even if it was like something like religion, that was just not the reason. Like it was like part of the interesting thing of it was like not only was he trying to find a reason, and it's a lot of the book is like him sort of explaining why he did this, why he went there, uh, and you know, almost in a in a sense, again, of him trying to discover why he went there. Uh, and then um, you know, on top of that, showing that the people in it didn't really know why they were in it or what they were doing. So it's just it's just I just was totally fascinated by this uh motion. And then on top of that, him, you know, uh being um, you know, having drug abuse, addiction, drinking, all that kind of stuff, behaviors um, you know, related to him as an attack.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Hearing you summarize it, and I think you did a really great job. Um I'm starting to connect the dots with a lot more stuff. Things that we've talked about before, but some of them I don't think we have. Him trying to make sense of the world. You know, uh uh us uh ADHDers um tend to be very sensitive. Um and I think things like motivation and intentions and stuff like that uh can be romanticized because we feel so much. And to your to the point you made, you know, he goes there and almost immediately is trying to figure out who the bad guys are and who the good guys are. And at every turn he's confused and uh I think the another theme that comes up in the book is it's it's the the interpersonal stuff. You know, he makes friends with people who he thought uh fought for the wrong team and comes to realize like I actually kind of like this person, and so there's that tension and conflict throughout the book too. Um but you know, he's he's a seeker, he's a wanderer, and uh he's it seems like very confused by the world. And um this is like one of his kind of uh themes of themes of redemption is him going there and trying to make sense of this all. And I think the other kind of there there's a story within the story, as uh uh there oftentimes is, uh especially with good with good tales. In this one, one of the major themes that's kind of always the the noise in the background, is how confusing this whole fucking thing is. Um you know, it starts off as a conflict between um different groups, and then that morphs into a different kind of a conflict with different players. And um, you know, I feel like I'm back in corporate America. We have, for those of you not familiar, you know, they're an endless list of acronyms um that you know only a certain people know what what they all mean, and we all kind of nod in the meetings like sure. I know what that is, but but few do. And and I got that sense, it was this kind of like yeah, um, very confusing um noise the whole time about who's fighting who and why, and meanwhile, there are atrocities committed by um all sides at various points.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Seemed like mostly the Serbs, uh, even in this portrayal, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

Yeah, yeah, that's very true. Yep. Um yeah, it's it's confusing, and it's it's him trying to make sense of the world and and learn about himself, I think, at the same time. And um, I think to the point you made too about and another reason why I think this book resonated with me so much. I would never have called myself an alcoholic uh at the time that I read this. And certainly my drinking wasn't up to to where it was by the time I got sober, but it was a problem. Um it was it was the way I medicated myself in large part as a a young dude. Um, I think I started drinking around 15, and um I think you know my story is not a lot different than than others, you know, where I felt like I could summon courage, and um I felt really cool and confident, and um I had access to things that I didn't have access to before. And um at some point, you know, you you um it becomes the monkey on your back. And while I wasn't ready to admit it at that point when when I read this in my 20s, you know, I I required booze to to be in most social um situations. I used it to deal with stress, I used it to celebrate all the things that I think alcoholics for the most part talk about. And so to read this story, he's also in a space, you know, he he's um a heroin addict, but it starts off in you know, by his account, in a pretty innocent way, and I think he makes a point at one at at a a part in the book, you know, he he's not addicted to it. Um it's just something that he does. Um and meanwhile, he's you know drinking um a bunch all the time, yeah. All the time, yeah. So so yeah, it was like here's the scared dude um who's got dip uh dependency issues and going into a place to seek some redemption. And um well, that's where I was at too. I don't know if you if this is the time to talk about it because I think we still have a lot more to talk about with the book, but you know, when I was I'll I'll risk it and I'll go ahead and start talking about it. Yeah, this is good. So um yeah, I uh because I was a horrible student, um I had a lot of traumatic memories about my time in high school. And I was a chameleon, I think as many of us are or were. Um you know, I was wearing a different costume, um, you know, metaphorically in in different situations to to blend in. Um I I wanted to be noticed, but I didn't want to be noticed. I didn't know who I was or what I wanted to do. And um and so I had a lot of I had a lot of trips and I had a lot of um regret. And um I you know again, like I said, I didn't I didn't I didn't go into my professional life thinking, oh, I want to be a teacher. It just kind of didn't happen, it felt logical, like a logical conclusion. And then to go back to my alma mater, many of the same teachers that I had were still there. Um you know, uh a lot of people knew me. So uh I think back to um one of the traumatic times in high school, and I think it it was a lot like me going back to to teach and coach. Um I was dating a girl when I was uh 16 years old, and um again didn't have any intention of like uh having any kind of serious uh relationship with anybody, and it just happened, and I had that first uh I hate this I hate this uh term, but I'll use it because I think it's easiest for everyone else to understand, probably. I had this puppy love for this girl, and it was it felt like my first true love, and um she dumped me and um she hooked up with a friend of mine, in fact. That's uh so the the cherry on top. Oh yeah, dude. And and you know, to to uh this might seem really obvious, but say it anyway. Um, you know, if that happens in real life, you just stop going to the place where that person is or those people are. Um, but if it happens in high school, you know, I had classes with all these people, I was passing them in the hallway every day. You know, you're forced to. Interact and I did not have the emotional uh intelligence or any of the tools to deal with that. And so for a very long time, I mean throughout the rest of high school and and and after I was I was traumatized by that and I I thought I still had feelings for her for a long time. So yeah um to go back to that place um it was similar in a way like I I I didn't want to be there, but I also wanted to be there. I there are people who who knew me from when I was a student and knew my story, but I was gonna show them that I was different. You know, uh I had um some some fun little things. Um when I got uh um I'm not sure what what the process is. I was gonna say elected, it's not elected. Um when I was when I joined the National Education's Honor Society, Kappa Delta Pi, I think, um they give you lapel pens. Oh yeah. And um, dude, I wore that lapel pen and two mana jacket on because I wanted everybody to know like hey, uh I'm I'm actually smart, I'm not the dumbass kid that was here before. And then there was another wrinkle um where you know the uh I'm a very sensitive dude. Yes, as am I um and I think naturally I can really open up, I think this is an ADHD thing too, or I can really open up with someone who um I find a connection to, but otherwise, you know, I can appear to be aloof and um and and not interested. And uh so I um when I started coaching, the guy who was running the entire program was this kind of Bobby Knight archetype. He was gruff, he had been an amazing player in his own right back when he played, and he was a yeller and a screamer and uh an intimidator type. Yeah, which is the exact opposite of of my makeup. Yeah, and I felt pressured to uh behave like he did, and so I went back to wearing a costume at this place that was a traumatic setting for me. And um not not for this podcast, but uh certainly when I went back, I had a lot of traumatic moments, you know, where I I thought I disappointed someone or I made a grave mistake, or um, you know, that reaction sensitivity dysphoria is is uh is so hard.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

That's the that for me, that's the worst symptom of ADHD. It's it's debilitating.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

Yes, excruciating. And there were a couple of incidents where that haunt uh to say haunted is I think appropriate. They haunted me for years and years and years and years, and not until I think I started making amends and and getting some emotional um maturity, getting some sea legs under me, did I did I come to grips with all that. But so, you know, I was I was wearing a costume, I was behaving in a way that was that ran counter to the person who I really was. And so that act in itself is is an act of violence, I think, against against who I am, and I was doing it to myself. So um not only was I um lost, but I was seeking answers and you know and trying to get redemption, it sounds like in some kind of way.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

So that really does tie into the I don't know, perhaps one of the themes of the book is this uh, you know, the battlefield as proving ground or as like the revealer of some I don't know, true self. I mean, people think about like, you know, the real me is gonna be revealed, like uh, and most people, I guess, imagine themselves that they're deliberately putting themselves into war as it's gonna reveal me as this courageous, awesome guy. And I just see you in the uh halls of uh your old school with the lapel pin saying, Look, I'm I'm at I'm smart, you know, like, or whatever. I mean, I totally can relate to that so much, like wanting to have this redo the scene so that the scene of my humiliation is now the the the revelation of like how awesome I actually am or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Yeah, and ironically, I don't think I was any more mature when I came back than I was when I was there. So I was really, you know, like we talk about it in in the rooms of AA some from time to time, you know, this idea that um it doesn't feel like you're hurting anybody else, but in my case, you know, I was walking around and interacting with people um with a kind of adolescent sensitivity and uh bearing. And so I'm sure there are people who are really confused or you know, I don't know, disappointed in their interaction or something, but uh I was not presenting my best self um when I went back. So it was in some ways, I think, just as traumatic. I will I'll ask you uh to picture this scene. Me in a basketball game in a gym full of uh crazed fans um against our arch rival and uh ripping my jacket off and throwing it on the ground as I jumped up and down to try to get a timeout to throw that uh on an iPhone. Oh yeah, I mean it was it was everything but throwing a chair, and and and I I did those kinds of things. I did that exact thing. Uh I'm sure you replay it for yourself uh as a torture device uh often. Oh yeah. Well, and the other the other the way I torture myself is to think about what I would be like if I went back now, you know, with my new self. Yeah, right. I'd really show them now, Marty. I would really I would really show them.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Well, yeah. The baby that doesn't even I mean, you said there were some teachers that had were still there and stuff like that, but yeah, I doubt that's the case anymore. Even there's just like no way to go back and get that sort of fantasy redemption, at any rate. And like that's a huge uh important thing to to realize, you know, in our in our journey that that's not what redemption is. It isn't is it isn't, you know, going back and changing the past, but perhaps you know, reinterpreting it or or seeing the past differently.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Um, you know, well and and making a new future, you know, redemption through future acts. And I think that um the thing that gives me the most comfort now is knowing that I am a different person. Yeah. And the interactions that I have are going to be more genuine to who I am. Yeah. And I think that people as a result are going to have a better experience. Yeah. A better Patrick experience? Better Patrick experience for everybody. Me as an ADHD person. We are, thank you. We are so um uh what's what's the term? Um hyper vigilant. Yeah. And and so aware.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Looking for a slight, looking for like, yeah, uh any kind of like uh faux pas, like trying to read the social situation, we don't make a fool out of ourselves. Yeah, it's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

But but in combination with that, we're hyper-vigilant of all those things about ourselves. You've got I hope I oh my god, is this person mad at me and all those things? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's also combine that with the recovery bit and the uh emotional maturity, um, and now I see all those things in other people. Yeah, oh yeah, totally. Yeah, and it's like you know, it's it's uh what is it in the matrix where you if you take the blue pill, you know, there's no going back and you'll see the world for what it really is. I mean, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Super advanced uh sobriety is when um you know you look at the other person, you know, first and you like see it in them, you see you weren't the only one, and you know, you kind of cringe for them, but then the next step, uh, you know, I think we've talked about this, you found this as well, is that then you know you kind of realize uh compassion for that other person, which then couldn't come instead of uh the the feeling of cringe whenever you think about whatever cringy thing you did, or you know, whatever stupid way you misread a situation that you clearly should have known what to do in, um all of a sudden now you can have compassion for yourself, at least hopefully, like and understand that you just didn't understand. And that just uh reminds me so much um, you know, again, of Anthony Lloyd here. Um, because you know, in terms of his uh story arc, um there we don't get that redemption bit at all. And I I actually kind of like I'm glad for that because I think people try to force that that narrative uh in memoir probably too much sometimes. Uh but there is a kind of like I feel like um I don't know, some kind of it's not redemption necessarily, but there is this important moment of him realizing that everything he thought was bullshit. But it's not like it totally, at least apparent in any apparent way, um, you know, uh changes anything he's doing or whatever. It's but he at least realizes that like he's been you know fueled by some pretty deep bullshit. Um, and that, you know, what you know, the actual war situation, as the case may be, um, is not you know like anything that he you know uh thought it was going to be. And it's just really wild to me that he's not a combatant. So like this is not a memoir of a combatant, this is a memoir of a journalist who wasn't even a journalist, wasn't even a credential. Really just showed up and started, you know, fell into taking pictures and stuff like that eventually, pictures for money. And so, like this um uh, you know, because within journalism, too, you're I mean, and this is covered a lot in the book, you're trying to create a narrative. In general, the narrative that most journalists were creating, which is why the Serbs hate them, was that the Serbs were nasty, you know, and that they were, you know, doing all kinds of illegal, you know, crimes against humanity type things or whatever. Yeah, all that stuff. Right. And so, like, you know, they generally created a sense, like, especially for the you know, Muslim population of Bosnia, like a sense of sense of sympathy, you know, there. And he also was embedded mostly, not exclusively, but mostly with you know, the Muslims uh uh population as well. But as you mentioned, he he had like these, you know, Serb contacts as well. He had these, you know, other you know, folks that were, you know, had done really, really badass things, not badass in the good way, but like really bad things, and you know, what found them to be you know enjoyable to be around or whatever, you know, this just incredible experience of like nothing makes sense, like all the things I thought how they were going to be, they're not that way. And then just like trying to figure out why I even do the things that I do. And then I'll just you know end by saying the interesting part to me is the way he used. So, like, neither one of us have any experience with intervenidous drugs. We just, you know, are straight drunks. Uh, but like I'll just say at least my drinking was always about chilling out my intensity, my my own personality. Uh, and like you said, like you you might not know what to do in social situations, but at least when you are drinking, you feel like you do, um, or whatever. And you know, you have this. My I always talked about it uh, you know, from the big book as a sense of ease and comfort. Uh, but also the common phrase I used to use is like just take the edge off, and I mean take the edge off of myself as well. Um, and so I'm just sort of like fascinated by the juxtaposition of his heroin use, which was addictively like daily use when he was in London or or Britain. Um, and then you know, when he was in Bosnia, he doesn't have access to that, but he's like uh on all this adrenaline and then you know just drinking pretty constantly. So um, you know, like a lot to think about and all of that.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

I want to go back to his drug use because I do think you're you're touching on some really interesting stuff, but I I do want to go back to his childhood for a minute and talk about his his relationship with his father. And so if I'm remembering it right, you you fact-check me as we go here, but um his parents got divorced when he was fairly young, and there was a lot of mystery around it. And you know, did his mother cheat? Did his father cheat? Um, I can't remember what the narrative the the popular narrative was.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

It was the mother had a had a had a uh a baby with somebody else, but there wasn't like DNA kind of testing at the time or something like that. It it was probably it probably wasn't the mom stepping out, it probably was the dad, but it was never resolved. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

Well, and then and then I you know could find out later, right, that his father had other children that Anthony didn't even know about. So the the likelihood that it was the mother and not the father, pretty low. But you know, that's another one of the gray areas in the book where I don't think there was ever any um conclusions made about any of it. Right, yeah. But he had he had such a contentious relationship with his father who sounded like a real hard ass, yeah, and um and impenetrable emotionally, you know, not available emotionally. And he he boy, talk about resentment. Um he talks about it consistently throughout the book. And um, you know, I think another obvious commonality, you know, the the kind of ghosts that that haunt us as we uh as we walk around, especially during our times of um abuse. Um you know he had he had these burning resentments. And I think in large part he also never really grew up. He he had all these pent up feelings and emotions. And you know, there the in fact the the much of the the really ugly stuff with his father and his father's wife, his his stepmom, um happens when he's when he's uh actively in work, you know, work in the war zone and you know he's coming back and forth to visit his father whose his health is failing and all that stuff. And um yeah, he never he never really exercises that. And I think maybe that's uh uh another common theme, but but and to g to to use that maybe to segue into the drug use part. You make a great point and uh about his you know, he uses heavily when he's not uh in the fight, and then when he is in the fight, he's still using, but not to the degree that he is when in uh peacetime back at home. And um boy, talk about a junkie. You know, he is and at one point towards the end of the book, he even makes a comment and it's like in the last weeks and months of the war, he's on the front line and the situation is dicey to say the least. And um he's in a lot of really dangerous spots. And he talks about how that was the greatest moment of his life to that point, where he was getting shot at during the day and then at night um you know, drinking brandy or whatever I think it was brandy, whatever their drink of choice was over there, until they like passed out in in the wee hours of the night, and then waking up and smoking a pack of cigarettes and getting right back at it. But you know, that's that essentially just mainlining whatever drug he needed in the moment, whether it was the action of the battle or the numbing in the evenings where he was getting drunk. And it's also again back to being a young dude reading this book, um I certainly didn't uh believe that I had a problem like that, but I think it's at some level I knew, you know, maybe like like most or all of us do, um, subconsciously somewhere. Um and occasionally it surfaces where you go, oh shit, you know. Um I haven't gone more than three days without a drink. And or you know, you find yourself in a social situation and you can't imagine staying or even going in the first place if there's no booze. Um and if you do go, in my case, you know, I would go and then of course um counting down the minutes and seconds until I could get to a place where I could have a drink. So for him, he didn't need any of that. There were no breaks, it was just intensity and then uh numbing. Yeah. And uh, you know, again, as uh somebody reading that not really understanding that I had a problem, knowing that I I could really relate on some levels, and I think that's what that's what really drew me in.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Yeah, for sure. I mean, my tendency, you know, whenever I hear about intravenous drug use is to kind of like distance myself from it in the sense that like I wasn't, you know, into that. But one of the things that we kind of realize is that, you know, uh, well, for one, uh, alcohol withdrawal is uh more dangerous than heroin withdrawal. Uh that's a little something that people don't realize, but also that the damage can be just as or or or as extensive, especially um, you know, if it becomes a daily dependence as it was for me, just to like try to live my life or whatever. Um, and so, you know, I uh was always um yeah, going between um having to do like the work of the day kind of a thing and then just getting through that so that whatever obligation I had, I could finally get to, you know, just time is it? Drink right, yeah, exactly. Yeah, like just to get through it. So and I often thought oh, yeah, I just I often thought that you know, I don't really relate to a lot of these guys in these rooms because I was, you know, I had my job, like whatever, I kept it, um, all those kind of things. And um, you know, so like I'm managing this basically. Um, it's just yeah, I wasn't drinking in the morning. Yeah, right. I yeah, I wasn't drinking it.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

And I wasn't drinking at work more than a couple times a year. Yeah, right, yeah, it's kind of right, yeah, yeah. So um anyway, yeah. Another book um that I was exposed to around the same time. Um, I was going to Ohio Dominican and I took a course on violence. And um one of the books that they had us read was by Chris Hedges. And the book is called War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning. And in that book, he argues that war is an addictive narcotic. Um it provides societies with a sense of shared purpose and nobility, which was again, I think, the the romanticizing that I was thinking about a lot, um, by masking the reality of its brutality. And uh he contends that war can temporarily fill the spiritual void that many of us feel and give us this intoxicating high, this narcotic of being in the thick of it. Um but in the end it corrupts the human psyche and destroys culture, he says leaving only self-destruction and spiritual numbness in its wake. And I read that synopsis of it, because I haven't read that book in a while, and I went I went back to to refresh my memory at a high level and uh to make sure I wasn't misrepresenting it. But I decided to to uh recreate that last phrase and um substitute alcohol with war, or substitute yeah, alcohol instead of war. And that same sentence reads, alcohol can temporarily fill a spiritual void and offer an intoxicating high of camaraderie. Nice. It ultimately corrupts the human psyche and destroys culture, leaving only self-destruction and spiritual numbness in its wake. And I think that that spoke to me a great deal, and you know, for uh I think it's worth mentioning, you know, we have spirituality, of course, as a as a major tenant of recovery and AA. And um you started a meeting where spirituality is really the focus because it's it's a feature of most um regular meetings or run-of-the-mill meetings, but this particular meeting that you have is uh is the the main focus, spirituality. Um and I think when I started hanging out with you and the guys in that meeting, I realized like how numb I was, how numb my spirituality was, how latent um it had become. Um and Yeah, I think I think to be in the thick of things we do you know I say we I do this in my personal life where um I feel best when I'm busiest.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Yeah, oh yeah. And I think it's it's that it's that action. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

Yeah, it's it's the action, it's the it's the adrenaline that comes with accomplishment um and the feeling that you're you're actually doing something. And I really need that. And I can imagine uh Anthony being, you know, there as the bullets were flying and and really feeling like he was alive. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's the the spirituality is the thing that shows up when we're at rest. And um or the thing that you need the most when you're at rest. And it's easy to to skirt around that, you know, when when um there's a lot of stuff going on. But as soon as everything slows down, which is why I think when he goes back to London, you know, he's um doing heroin all the time. Yeah, you just can't stand it. Yeah. So yeah, when I when I showed up, I hadn't I hadn't realized that all my spirituality had atrophied. But um yeah, I think that's the beauty of AA if we're talking about you know, uh to talk solely about recovery is is getting being able to exercise on spirituality, waking it up and and learning what to do in the times where there's no action. Um how to really appreciate the moments. You know, I think I was so restless, as many of us tend to be, when I got sober, um I tend to gloss over the the history of me like pacing around the house for the first few weeks and not having any idea what to do with myself. Um and I I think you you've said this before, and it it makes me tingly and I I uh you know I always feel like ooh, it's such it's such a great compliment. But um, you know, something like many of us um drink because our intellect is so restless and there isn't enough to do. I I'm paraphrasing at this point, but you know, there isn't enough to do in the day that's stimulating um that alcohol is the cheapest way to get some spirituality um when we're when we're not active.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

And yeah, I would just say that um, you know ADHD recovery is different than you know other people's type of recovery. And it's kind of like we're having this conversation. I I had another conversation with somebody for whom it was depression. I had another conversation, you know, for you know, for people with you know in different types of circumstances, because like you know, we say sometimes dually addicted um in AA and or or dual diagnosis. Um and that sort of thing uh means like uh after the alcohol is out of your system and you're uh at your house pacing around, like the real underlying reasons why you drank, beyond the fact that you did become physically addicted to it, like like we all did, like, but like there is a spiritual reason why too. Um and so I don't know, the ADHD spirit, if it's anything for me, it's uh you know, it's it's this desire to be in difficult situations, to, to work hard, to uh, you know, have uh interesting, you know, challenges all the time. I when things become too easy for us or we recognize the pattern, uh, you know, our form of torture uh in ADHD, besides rejection sensitivity, dysphoria, which is the number one worst torture, but is the bust up. That's right. Yeah, then yeah, anything predictable and boring, um, you know, is it's just um it's just a torture. I don't know you know how else to put it. And so like our spirituality um I think involves um you know discovering you know what what makes us uh uh gives us a challenge and something to do. So that you know, when you know Anthony was, you know, like you said, on the battlefield, like that's not a problem. But when he got home, he still has all of that energy, all that desire, all of that interest in the world that he's you know wanting to um you know put onto something, but there's nothing to put on it to put it onto. And so, you know, that's the numbing uh of an ADHD or uh with alcohol or whatever. It's like that's the intensity that we're trying to lessen. And so, you know, alcohol though is uh you know, this low-level spiritual spirituality because like for us, high-level spirituality is what well, what both of us call love. That's you know, our sort of higher power. But like, what does that mean? That means like this radical like interest, like you know, attention span deficit totally misnamed. It's not a lack of interest or a lack of attention, like it is like this total, like googly-eyed, like you know, I want this, this, I want to do that, whatever. You know what they mean? It's this unbelievable desire to embrace uh, you know, and to and to be involved and all the rest of that kind of stuff. And when we can't do that, if we're disconnected from that, then yeah, we have to sedate ourselves because we can't calm down uh, you know, uh any other way.

SPEAKER_03 49:56

As I tend to do, I was like trying to take all of your very smart things and then um squish them through my filtering and have them come out in a way that I could maybe better wrap my mind around. And it's I interpret what you say as matching our racing ideas, unendless thoughts, desired intensities with action. So as long as what's going on up here matches the pace and speed of what's going on outside, I'm good, dude. Yeah, I think which is why I I'm always I've got lists and lists of stuff to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I remember when I when I first got sober, my counselor suggested that I put together a dopam menu, which is like, yeah, you know, when when I am because we need to conjure the dopamine, yeah, you know, when I'm when I'm at a loss, when I'm at these moments where I just feel listless and miserable, I can look at that dopamine menu and say, Oh, I should maybe I could do one of these eight things that make me feel good. A walk or um whatever. I can't even remember whatever the bullshit I had on that.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

Jim, but uh a book or write a paper in my case.

SPEAKER_03 51:10

Whatever. Yep. Yeah, build something would be on my list. But you know, we what when when our intensities are matched inside with what's going on outside, I the mechanism is churning as it should. But then to the point you were making in an eloquent way, um when all those things, external things, slow down, our intensities inside don't. And um something the same therapist who said the thing about the dopamine, she's amazing, by the way. But um she told me at some point, I was trying to explain this in a real primitive way because at the time I didn't really have the words or the understanding of what was going on. So I was trying to find the words to to describe what I was feeling. And she said she looked at me at something and she said, Dude, no wonder you drank. That's the only time you probably felt normal. And and that's that's definitely true, where I felt like I could slow the gears inside down to match what was happening on the air. Yeah, other people, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

And I won't be boring just like everybody else.

SPEAKER_03 52:23

You know, and some of the some of the things that I I tend to cringe at is uh, you know, and some a lot of times people on the rooms will say things like, you know, it worked for me for a long time until it didn't. Um but I do think I I I found some understanding here for that because I'm thinking about it in a different way. And it's an I guess an obvious one, but um, yeah, that shit works because it slows down all the intensities and um we can be calm and and we need that. It really is medicine for somebody like me, because if I was intense all the time, I would I would flame out, you know, I would be Icarus and I would be way too high in the loud. I've been that been there, done that. Yeah, there's a and I you know uh the last thing about this this ramble, I guess. Um I I don't I haven't been diagnosed with anything related to mania, but um I feel manic often when I am at my busiest, yeah. And I will I will literally work myself to exhaustion. I will go way past the point of being um tired, and I will have not eaten eight hours, hyper focused, and um you know I I I do this a lot with like house projects, um, where I will be building something and the the intense dopamine that I'm getting from doing the thing is so much, and I and I like an artist who can see a shape in the rock before they chisel it away. Um I'm trying to free the shape from the rock because it can't breathe. Uh yeah, right. And uh you know, by the end of it, I will be so exhausted and I'll look down and I'll cuts and scrapes all over my body, and my clothes will be covered in paint and shit. Um but I you know, in that mania, I feel um completely hyper focused on that thing at the expense of everything else. Yeah, yeah. But damn, that is when I feel the best.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

Yeah, I know, you know, and it's it's also when we burn the bridges, too. So it's like it is this, it is this, it you know, because like like anybody who dares to interrupt us when we're in the middle of one of those flows, holy schmolly, persona non grata instantaneously. Yeah, so I mean, what we're doing now in sobriety is learning how to work with it, learning how to temper that, like learning like, you know, like how to uh how to make that happen without um you know the too much of the burnout. Although I I would say that you know, my sobriety is basically like just learning to direct my intensities into things and and manage uh you know my sobriety by doing projects like this, by you know, writing things, by reading, by like exercise, whatever. I don't, I you know, I don't know uh if there's a step beyond that or or whatever, but this is you know, this is the stage that I'm in right now, at any rate. And I and you know, and I call that like a deeper level kind of um loving embrace of the world, of my life, of other people, um, just because um, you know, I feel like um I've been building this capacity uh through being sober um and building the capacity to be in my own skin, building the capacity to notice like all the interesting things that are happening, uh allowing myself to invest in other people and being fascinated by others because I'm not obsessed with um sedating myself or getting to the thing that I think I need or whatever, like I can be in other people's intentions and other people's needs. And uh, and that's you know, that's kind of like been my whole uh uh key in all this. And, you know, I think interestingly, or maybe not interestingly, but uh, you know, for Anthony, you know, like it seemed like his, like the pinnacle of his uh for me almost like loving awareness was realizing um, you know, when he's talking with the nurse that um you know she had idealized him because uh you know he had been involved with some uh with at least another journalist, I think.

SPEAKER_03 56:49

Saving saving a couple of children.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

And he was actually there and he sort of realized that he wasn't a hero, that like that that the story, I mean, he's a media guy, so the story had gotten um I don't know, idealized, fantasized, whatever. And the nurse was, you know, coming at her like they had done this amazing thing, and he was there and he knew it wasn't really like that. Um, and so I mean it's it's a it's a kind of first step, uh, I would hope, um, in in kind of realizing um, you know, this the way in which you know we're not um we're not really there in the stories that we tell about ourselves when we're living in this fantasy and that other people, you know, imagine about us and and whatever, and that you know, to try to like figure out like what it means to be there and to tell you know the truth about the situation. And like, well, here's how it really went down. And the nurse, of course, is disappointed. She wants the story or whatever. Um, and you know, both of us are great storytellers, you know. We we we know a little bit about telling a yarn or whatever. And so it's but it is this amazing moment, I think, when you know, the story we've been telling ourselves uh up until we decide to get stover uh kind of fall apart and we realize that they're just bullshit. It's the first step, at any rate. Uh, you can go either way with it, you can dive back into your addiction, or you can, you know, or it can be like this little little room where you can start to think about uh you know becoming different and making a new life, but not but but but like in the the person that you've been given, so that I can't stop, you know, my you know, intensity, I can't cut my personality uh down at all. I just have to go with it all the way, you know what I mean? So um yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_03 58:43

Well, what's the the the um I was gonna say Sun Tzu, I'm I'm messing up my uh um old smart people now, but it's the uh it's the de the Daota Ching. Oh Data Jing, yeah, yeah. And and the uh I I um hilariously, this is a quote that I brought to our our group to read, and I can't remember exactly what it is, but I think it's something like if you want to be reborn, you have to let yourself die. And um I really do feel like you're touching on something that uh means a lot uh to to me in this point in my recovery, and that's the the ego death. And to look back on, and I think you described that with Anthony at that point. I don't I'm not sure if that was his ego to hide it at that point. Right, yeah, yeah. His humility surfaced enough that he could say, you know, and in his telling of the story, you know, he describes this beautiful young nurse from the Red Cross coming up to him. I'm I'm probably messing this up, but the nurse from the Red Cross coming up to him, and he knew as soon as she started talking that if he just went along with um her version of events, then he could probably get laid. And even even with that prospect, he couldn't bring himself to do it because he knew it wasn't genuine. And I think so much of the where I am with my journey, you know, with the ADHD thing side, um it's the the ego death. And you know, thinking about this conversation we're having right now. I don't in the past I might have let me start over. One of the things that AA has taught me is unscripted is the best way. And there there are moments in my corporate career where I've spoken in front of groups of people, small and big. And I've almost always been scripted because not only do I want it to be perfect, but I don't want to fuck it up. You know, so there are these two, I guess the two definitions of perfection. One is I uh I want it to be the best it possibly can, but I'm also scared to death that I would mess it up. And in the end, you get this manufactured um bunch of shit. And for somebody like us who's hyper-vigilant and hypersensitive, we can spot that shit a mile away. And as a teacher, you know this too, so can teenagers. They can s smell that shit on you um from miles and miles away, which is why they latch on to teachers like you, because they know that you you really care about them. Um but yeah, I I uh I think that the the death of ego as it manifests itself for me in this conversation is I can be myself and talk to you, and I can I can be unscripted. Um you know, there's one time I read something about the Chris Hedges. Yeah, but like, yeah, I I and I'm not worried about like oh fuck, I I hope I didn't say the wrong thing there. Right, yeah, yeah. You know, whatever. I'm talking to a friend, um, and there's mutual respect and um and and I can be me. I I think I've I've finally gotten to a place where I can confidently say I know more about myself than I ever have in my whole life. I don't know if I know exactly who I am yet. You know, I still try out different costumes from time to time, but um way more comfortable in my own skin and confident in myself. Um and I think that that, you know, God, God bless AA and and all the things that come with it because it's such a miserable existence, you know, to I go back to that violence thing, um, you know, doing violence against oneself by um pretending to be something that you're not. It's just exhausting. It's exhausting and traumatic and everything else, and this is just a much better way to go. So, yeah, in that moment, uh, you know, young Anthony Lloyd couldn't even uh bring himself to get laid that night. He had to get an honest picture, yeah. You know, probably yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

I mean he always kind of like looked at some of the bullshit going on at the war, like you know, kind of like thinking about the economics of like getting particularly gruesome pictures and like you get more money for. I mean, he just like thinking about like sort of the exploitation that went on with some of that commercial war, yeah, all that kind of crazy stuff. So he had a kind of a sense about that. Um, and then you know, uh he really did though convince me that there was no way in which he wrote this to be, you know, lionized or like idealized or anything like that. He really did want to poke holes in all that. Um, not and I don't think, you know, to the point of like total self um deprecation or just worthlessness. I don't think we'd want we want to do that either, you know, in AA when we're telling our drunchologue or whatever. Like we uh, you know, sometimes there's a competition. And again, not to idealize uh uh AA either. We have a particularly good group of guys for one thing, but they're they're gonna be all the same bullshit fantasy crap that goes on anywhere else in AA. Um, and so like one of those places that that ironically happens is when dudes are talking about their past and they make it like 50,000 more times gruesome than it may have been, and then it's almost like it's kind of like drunkelogue competition with who you know was further down the scale or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:43

Uh and yeah, my favorite my favorite is the vehicle to self-promote. You know, somehow you weave in there, um, even though you're drunk and puking or whatever the situation is, was also pretty awesome. Yeah, right. Really cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

Uh and that's the other thing. I mean, um, you know, uh we're getting a you know a little bit over an hour now, so we're winding it down. But um the um I would just say that the uh uh if your stories are better when you were drinking than they are when you're sober, then just go back to drinking or or whatever you were doing because like you're not you're not getting sober, you know, like in the in a way that is sustainable, at least the way I think about it. Your life should be better, period. Your stories should be better. Like, so like you should be more excited to tell the part of your story, uh, you know, where you're discovering the world without drugs and alcohol than you are to tell the part of your story. Like, because it those are good stories. Like, you know, I I got I started drinking and I, you know, wound up like uh you know on a park bench in Dallas, Texas. Yeah, wherever. Those are great, fantastic stories, a lot of fun. Um, I love them like everybody else, but like hopefully you've done. Some cool shit now that you're sober too. But anyways, let me pass it back to you to have the last word and uh wrap us up here.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:08

Oh, thanks. And and I I do wanna I'm gonna try my hand at a happening idea. Um and it might come out like a holy good, but whatever, I'll give it a shot. Um I'm just thinking guys like Anthony Lloyd go into Warzone for valor and romantic notions. And in the end, I think without exception, maybe you might find some crazy dude here and there. But almost without exception. All those expectations are shattered when you realize that there really is no valor. And you know, there's this there's this idea of survivor's remorse where oftentimes you know all of the valor remains with the people who are left in the field. You know, everyone who dies, they were really the brave ones. Whereas I don't know how how or why I made it, but now I feel guilty because I did, because I know that I really wasn't brave. And I think that you know that's certainly Anthony Lloyd's experience. But also thinking about it in the context of alcoholism. We we tend to romanticize our drunkalogues, you know, these times, at least in early sobriety. That was our war. That was our war. That was our war. And we we tend to romanticize it. But for us, I don't think it's not it's not being in the battlefield and seeing your friends die, although you know there are some stories about death in the rooms. Um but for me it was more like looking back on that time that I thought of as so romantic in the past and realizing that it's really just sad. It's really just uh a battlefield of my own making, yeah, strewn with resentments and regret and shame and sadness and piss and unfulfilledness. Yeah. And um so in that way, there I think there is a great parallel. There's a romantic notion of what it's like, which is perpetuate ironically, man, now I'm uh now I'm uh really zooming in on this, but you know, one of the reasons why I had so so many romantic notions about war um and being in the military was because of the movies and shit that I watched as a kid. You know, how often do you watch John Wayne um you know climb over the ramparts or whatever or fly the free of a river fire or whatever? Yeah, there's so many examples of these guys, these super masculine characters who are so brave and and gain great notoriety because of their bravery. And um then to realize, because I could like Gary say that to people like Anthony Lloyd, that that's actually not how it works. Um in the same way with alcohol, you know, all the advertising and propaganda around how awesome it is to live the life. You know, I was I went to college because I wanted to reenact Animal House when I got there. And I tried. I tried.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:24

Unfortunately, college wasn't like that uh either.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:26

Every fantasy, yeah, get has to get blown out of the water. It's funny, uh, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:31

Yeah, and and and there are some people who probably the the mercs who go back.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:37

You know, they they might have understood that that they in wartime it's not this romantic um thing that they thought it was. And maybe the same way with alcoholics. You know, we we we romanticize that way of living until we we don't. And then we realize with some maturity and sobriety and a clear head that it wasn't anything like we thought it was. And we can recognize all the all the resentments and sadness and regret. That's right, um, as well. But I would just say this in closing. What a gift this has been. Um to not only talk to you about this in this kind of format, but also to go back and go back and read this book, this amazing book. Um let's do it. Let's do it again. Yeah, yeah, let's keep it going. I would love to do it. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:27

Anyway, yeah, this is a very important thing.