Nothing to Grasp

Doug and I discuss Nothing to Grasp by Joan Tollifson. Doug's spiritual journey has been one of continual exploration through his life and in his recovery itinerary. He has recently been getting deeply into nonduality in addition to his Christian practice. Our conversation about Tollifson's recovery sojourn and nondual practice allow us to discuss Doug's insights into being fully present now wherever we find ourself on the path.

https://youtu.be/eP3FMtZq15M

Intention without intention

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Hey Doug, how's it going? Good. Beautiful day here in the park. Gorgeous. Thanks for doing this with me. I really appreciate it. Yeah. So this is a part of a project, uh, reading in recovery. These are books that are somewhat meaningful beyond normal recovery literature, but something that we've found along the way that's been helpful to us in our journey. And Doug has thankfully agreed to participate in the project. So I'm going to just hand it over to him for a second to tell us about his book a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

Okay, so the book we're going to discuss today is titled Nothing to Grasp. And it's by a lady by the name of the name of Joan Tullifson. And Joan is a radical practitioner of non-duality. And she also practices traditional Buddhism and non-traditional meditation practices. And the way she articulates her, she's also in recovery and she's been sober for a time, but she's kind of got an interesting take on her recovery in the 12 steps. So I really relate to her the way she articulates, and I just, she's my favorite author currently.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Very nice. So how would you characterize your spirituality before starting recovery, if at all?

SPEAKER_03 1:55

It ebbed and flowed. You know, I would go through periods of deep trust and Christianity, and then I would walk away from it, but still have a belief, if you will, and faith. But the last couple years I've been exploring other alternatives such as Buddhism and Zen. So yeah, it's evolving and it evolves, seems like it evolves on a daily basis for me.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

So when you first got into a recovery program and they said to you, you know, this requires a spiritual experience, or maybe they didn't say that, but did is was there a moment where you kind of like had to try to figure that out, or how did that strike you when that uh when that first was announced, I suppose?

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Yeah, I mean I was it was suggested that I just get on my knees and and pray and ask for help uh my alcoholism. It was when I was in uh admitted to Talbot Hall. Uh actually it was April the 2nd of 99, so it's been just 27 years since I walked in there. And so I've just um had a uh a spiritual awakening, if you will, and a deep trust that God doesn't want me dead, he doesn't want me drunk, and I surrender. That's been my experience.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Yeah, so as you like when would you say uh so that's a a very typical recovery sort of uh trajectory, so this this surrender, um, and then this um knowledge that there's a higher power that doesn't want um your destruction, that that wants that loves you and and wants you to prosper. So um in the most general sense of that word, um how um did you experience that, if if at all? I mean, what was the sort of uh I don't know, subjective experience of the whole thing, if there was one.

SPEAKER_03 4:00

Yeah, I mean it was it was a transference out of my head to my heart. Okay, by all means. You know, a deep seated uh gut check, if you will. And I just knew. I knew, you know. And uh and I've had that that deep trust ever since.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

So uh as with a lot of us uh in recovery, actually some of the a lot of this project, frankly, comes out of this uh kind of reaching a perhaps let's say plateau plateau or a or a doldrum perhaps in in long-term recovery. Um do you have any kind of experiences like that as a part of your uh spiritual journey or whatever? A lot. A lot, okay, yeah. Is this around the same time that you kind of discovered uh non-duality? Is is that has it been kind of a renewal of that or is it just separate?

SPEAKER_03 4:54

Non-duality I've discovered in the last couple years. Um 20 years ago, uh April 26th, actually, of 2006 is when I dedicated my life to Christ uh and became a Christian, quote unquote. Right. And um I um got pretty rigid on my beliefs. Uh I mean you're either in or you're out, right? That's Christianity. And that over the years is relaxed, and um I still you know have a love of Jesus. I still believe in Jesus, but um I believe in other things too.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

I don't think it's just etched in a granite. And so how would you describe the sort of like experience of hitting a plateau or a doldrum uh subjective experience?

SPEAKER_03 5:46

Yeah, well, it happened during COVID.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

As it did for a lot of people, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

And I uh I got a distaste for organized religion, my my church that I was a member of because they were ignoring all the safety aura. Oh, I see. And I kind of thought that was irresponsible. So I just stopped going. And at that time, I began meditation. Um and through like a book or through an actual class? Well, actually, my son sent me an app called 10% happier. Okay. Facilitated uh by an ex uh broadcaster by the name of Dan Harris, and I've been using that app ever since. I mean I meditate every day using that guided meditation I have.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

And uh how would you characterize your meditation practice? I mean, what I mean, if if you care to go into any detail around like what it is or like Yeah, it's totally transformed my life.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Um and it uh has uh just opened me up to um awareness, you know, and okay, so it's an awareness practice. Totally. Just like uh Yeah, and the breathing techniques and uh quieting your mind, if you will. You know, I had a really uh active brain, uh which I still do, but I recognize it and accept it today, and just you know, it just is. Um but it's really helped me uh transform my life and my the way I conduct myself, you know, with with emotional roller coasters and those kind of things.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Okay, yeah, so it's a kind of uh expansive expand expansion of the consciousness, like greater awareness, and uh and also like has this sort of like de-escalation function as well. Yeah, and it gets better all the time. I I I have always struggled with uh the meditation practice for sure. I I I'd rely on it. So I think that gets us into the um non-duality spirituality bit. So was there any like um so you obviously experienced some kind of uh a tension within yourself around like the traditional form of Christianity that you started to practice, and uh there were certain aspects of it that weren't working. But as you came to discover this new um guess technique, uh religious practice perhaps, was there any tension between the two that you felt or only in my mind.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

Only in your mind? Yeah, that I created. There was no reason to create it. Okay, yeah. It was just it was just it was just teaching me um that it's nothing to grasp, as the title of the book says. Right, so it just is.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Right. And so um let's talk a little bit about that, because I don't think a lot of people, well maybe more people are nowadays, but probably not a lot of people are familiar with non-duality. Uh so what does it mean to you to start there?

SPEAKER_03 8:52

It means non-separateness. It means that we're all pretty much exist in the same realm, um, and we're not separate. Uh, and it's not something you uh really can define. I mean, it's it's a it's more of a uh I don't even know if you call it a philosophy or a concept, but it's just awareness, consciousness. I mean, there's so many words to describe it, yeah, uh, and they're not really appropriate. Right. Every word falls away. Yeah. It's not something pursue, it's not something I I have. It just the thought of and the statement I am is what I hold on to.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Just I am. So that certainly has a great crossover with uh the Hebrew Bible for sure, and especially the the great I am. Yeah, the unnamable, the uh ineffable, yeah. Um God who cannot be um captured by a name. So yeah, that's that's nice. I uh often think of, and just see how this goes by uh how you think about this, but um I think about like whenever I start to um kind of try to frame uh Eastern religion in like a way that I can get it, because I didn't grow up with any of it. Um but I I frame it with two concepts, and one is from Buddhism, that's no self. Uh, and you know, uh Joan talks a lot about um no self. Like this is like one of her main, I would say, meditations where we get all caught up, and whenever we're caught up, it's being caught up in the self. And so like so many of her um, so much of her writing is about not getting um caught up in the self by realizing that you don't have one. Did you have any? I mean, are you any are you having experiences like that or is it or that's I mean that's what it is.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

I mean that that's that's the the essence of the message. And uh it's also the here-nowness, you know, it's just here now. Uh and when I you know, I find myself getting caught up in myself frequently, and um I can recognize it and uh realize that thoughts are just thoughts and you know uh yeah, they're not that important. You know, it's like clouds in the sky passing. Um it's just another, just another aspect of the practice.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Right. For me, uh I I think of uh you know the clouds in the sky passing or thoughts are just thoughts and all that kind of stuff, and even like ultimately the no-self concept in terms of the southern eastern uh Buddhist uh very simply put, a concept of impermanence. Just everything is in constant flux and changing and passing away. So that there's nothing to grasp, as the title would say, in terms of like whatever you think you've got a solid hold of, then um you know that thing is going to eventually disappear. You're you're you're gonna find yourself holding on to nothing uh in the end. So like the grasping though is suffering, it's pain. Exactly. And uh even though it's there's nothing really we're even grasping, but like it still causes so much pain. Um, and I don't know. So that's no self and impermanence, and then the other big concept is more from Taoism, the Wu-Wei, which is the purposeless action. So here this is related to no-self and that it's a denying of an agent of a self that like does things or whatever. And I I wonder sometimes if this connects pretty well, which I I think it does, with this realization and AA of like um unmanageability that leads to a total surrender.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

I would a hundred percent agree with that, and it's all intertwined and it's all it all points to the same thing, which is here now. Uh everything changes, there's nothing permanent. Uh I really got deep into this uh the last couple years uh when everything changed in my life, and it changed abruptly, and I didn't like it, and I didn't know what to do. And I had um back to AA, I was I was not participating in AA for a time, probably ten years of my recovery, and um this experience that I had just kind of awakened me, and I I knew what to do intuitively. I just knew to go back to AA, and all these things have been put in front of me that have allowed me to cope and deal with it and then grow. Uh and it's given me a lot of hope, and it's just uh, you know, it's just ever evolving. Uh so you know, the good and the bad, I I am I also had a deep material uh attachment, and I've learned to let go of all that crap. And just, you know, like I can come over to this park on a daily basis with my dog and just realize this is this is nirvana, you know, it's here and now, the birds singing, you know, watching this park in the spring flourish, everything changes. I experience that on a daily basis, so it all intertwines for me and it's it's evolving and growing.

unknown 14:25

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

And so this experience safety s place of uh I guess detachment.

SPEAKER_03 14:36

Surrender, you know. Um brought to my knees, if you will. You know, I didn't know what to do. Um I wanted to drink, which is the first time I had that feeling since I got surrendered.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Just uh uh relief from your like uh depression, relief from uh just like stress, relief from just like imminent doom.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Eminent doom, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I didn't know what the hell to do myself. Yeah. And then everything, everything has changed, and it's not uh anything that I would have written this type type of script, but you know, in hindsight, it's uh you know it's been good for me and uh to be able to realize and stay in the present. Another big aspect of the thing is my anger. I used to experience a lot of anger, but I haven't experienced anger in probably six months. You know, I'll have anger is a normal emotion, but it's not a type of anger that you know um beats me alive, if you will. So uh that's been a great, great reference.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

So I uh I guess the uh other thing I was thinking about, because I always wind up relating things to Greek philosophy, because you know that's my background, at least partially, and uh well just the history of philosophy in general. So I this is how I make the bridge between east and west for myself, at any rate. Uh but the idea of already here, uh the the now. Uh Joan said something really interesting to me. Tolfson said something really interesting to me when she said that like even like grasping after, this is like a big mistake a lot of people make, grasping after the now is also a problem. So we really, we really, yeah, we really uh we really can't we really can't um be upset with ourselves when we find ourselves not in the now or whatever, because that could become a whole nother source of stress if we're not if we're not careful about it or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

Yeah, I mean there's good and bad in life, and that acceptance and uh understanding is is key to me. And she emphasizes that. You know, we're gonna have we're gonna have good and bad moments. It just is, you know. Um another thing that I admire about Joan is she struggled with serious health issues, and she never complains about it, she just accepted as it is. She was born with with a half of an arm and has been able to, you know, cope with that and exist and not not make that a problem.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

So, you know, it's just her struggle um uh just to pivot just slightly uh with addiction is also interesting too. She describes herself as like, you know, really into drugs and alcohol in her teenage years and into her 20s. Um and then, you know, she had this kind of radical transformation, but you know, it wasn't as radical as we might think. And this is a really kind of uh unorthodox AA thing, I've got to say. But she um, you know, she had slip-ups, and one of the things that uh she had to do was like um accept those as a part of the journey. Like, she gives a really good example of something that she says she still struggles with, which is biting her fingers. And she used to get really upset and shameful uh and shame herself about the fact that she couldn't stop biting, and she would go through long periods where she actually could stop, and then all of a sudden she'd find herself biting her fingers again. And part of her strategy was to just accept that that was that was a part of it. So I just I don't know if you thought about anything about what it says about you know addiction and repovery.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

Yeah, totally. Um and the nail biting thing is if I have the same experience, I bite my nails, I have all my life, and uh to the point where sometimes they bleed. And it's like you know, I I have learned to accept it and and uh have that presence of mind to know when I'm doing it. So and it's not something that uh I can control, it seems like. It just is. But her experience with with uh recovery because she just accepted it and she didn't have to follow a 12-step program, she just had a deep surrender that she or conviction that that she uh was able to not drink. And um, you know, there's a lot of ways to get soda. Uh so that you know I I think that uh you don't necessarily have to practice AA to get sober. She's a good example of that. But uh her quality of life seems to be pretty good, not using AA. My uh experience is AA has has given me so much, and I'm so uh grateful for it. You know, like the community, like meeting you, meeting this group of guys that we do this book study with. Um just it's totally broadened my horizons. Yeah. And uh, you know, I'm the old guy, and uh I kind of like it. You know, I just the fellowship is is indescribable for A.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah, so that's I that's for me the main thing too. And I I yeah, I just want to co-sign with what you're saying because whatever practices we discover are are just tremendous help or can be, but it's the fellowship that, you know, for me keeps it new and reinvigorated because there's you just like the people around us are always I mean there's nobody more interesting than um well there's probably nobody more intelligent either. I mean, other that than than uh than an addict, you know, than a drunk. Uh I mean they're they're they're great company, you know, like not always, let me not romanticize this too much, but like, you know, in the thrall in the in the in the in the throes of of disease, it's you know it's not it's not a lot of fun, but the fellowship is the main thing, it becomes the main thing, at least for me. So yeah, there's the program and the spiritual steps which have been, you know, refined from just the greatest hits of human spirituality in some ways. Um but then there's um you know, then there's yeah, there's this. Those are those are conversations. Yeah. That's what that's what makes it totally worthwhile to me. And that's what puts me in the now. Like without effortlessly, I'm in the now. If I'm with a with a brother talking through, you know, whatever it is. I agree. Yeah. Um, but so this there's a there's a sort of balance between this idea, and I think it's really a contradiction, but product productive contradiction between being, you know, everything is already the way it's supposed to be, what you know, some people would call being in the now. Like she actually says at one point in the book the only perfection is the perfection of right now. It's not something down the road or whatever. But then you've got this other contradiction of change, and so that's the that's the same contradiction that I think is at the heart of AAA, uh, the heart of just any recovery program where you start with this radical acceptance. And then it's from that place of total acceptance that you get this change that doesn't come from deliberation. And she tries to talk about that a lot in the book. That it's not this manipulative, like intentional kind of like uh, although to me sometimes it kind of has to be, but there it it kind of comes from a different place because she could not stop drinking and she could not stop you know biting her uh fingers or whatever um by willing it. I mean I mean this is this really crazy uh contradiction that we all have to struggle with a lot of change. There's this passive activity, unintentional intentionality. I don't know if you had any thoughts around that or not. Yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

I um I've I've evolved into quite the disciplinarian. Uh so I have practices I'll do every day. And it starts with um meditation, uh formal meditation, and then prayer, and then I'll read literature, I'll read my Bible, I'll read the 24-hour book, uh, and then I'll do a yoga practice. And I've also picked up Chagong. Um and I've investigated uh Stoics as practices too, and that discipline. And all these things that I do repetitively daily, uh I'll at times I'll realize how far I've come, you know, how far my growth has been. Um and so I'm a big proponent of discipline. I wouldn't call it self-discipline, I just I just learned to do it and I do it. Yeah, you know, it's it's not my having a practice, it's not my will. Yeah, I see, yeah. I just it just is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Well we talked a lot uh in our spirituality group about this idea of having a practice and sticking to it as a kind of like I don't know, form of commitment, but um it's it is interesting how uh we it also helps us to stay out of our way at the same time, even though it's deliberative and intentional, it's still it's still it's setting an intentional, you know, which is it seems contradictory, but it is at the same time uh the thing that allows us somehow, paradoxically, but to stay out of our own way. Exactly. Exactly by experience, yeah. It's totally out of self. That's right, yeah. By default mode is self. That's right, yeah. Yeah, so uh yeah, um I guess we'll just um end up with this kind of last and framing that I was thinking about, um, and then I'll ask you for uh any final thoughts. But um I brought up Greek philosophy and forgot to mention it, but the uh Parmenides believe that you know all change was actually kind of an illusion, which to me is sort of like along the idea of um right here, right now, so that it's perfect the way it is. Nothing needs to happen. Like it just everything is or it isn't. And then uh Heraclitus, they never actually had a formal debate, but Heraclitus did kind of set himself up against Parmenides. As far as we can tell, they're both considered pre-Socratic, so we don't have a lot of their own original writing. But the most famous thing about Heraclitus is this Eastern concept of impermanence. So that you know, he talked about, you know, you can never step into the same river twice because it's always flowing, it's always changing, so that life is aflow. So for me, um, this is just one more way to kind of encapsulate the contradiction between everything right now doesn't need to go anywhere, but everything's going everywhere all the time. So, like it's just it's this it's this hard thing to get your mind wrapped around. I guess the good thing is that we don't have to. That's right. Yeah, that's good, man.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

Yeah, I uh I like that. Um and you can also parallel that to uh the ocean of waves. I mean I forget the name of the author, but it's I think it's uh in every wave the eternity of the sea. And you know, they're waves are not separate. You know, they're part of the ocean. It's like mapping a territory. You know, you can't map anything, it's the territory. And, you know, uh John Butler is another uh he's a Christian mystic, but I've been watching his videos on YouTube and describes it as letting go. You know, we're all grasped like this. All we have to do is let it go and realize this is this is the idea.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

So beautiful. Uh yeah, I guess sometimes in Buddhism it would be thought of as just like a acceptance of samsara, acceptance of the suffering and the cycles and all the things that are necessary, like uh just all at once, um, but you know, it's still being over space-time at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

So, uh, any last thoughts, Doc? I can't believe I've talked as much as I have. It was great.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

I really appreciate it, man. Uh I I I feel like I learned a lot about you and I learned a lot more about recovery and generally. So I thank you very much for being brave and willing to participate in this.