Episode 10 - Mark - DUI, Loss, and Post-Traumatic Growth

This week's episode we touch in with an old friend, Mark O'Brien. Mark currently lives in Lutherville, Maryland with his lovingly transparent family, wife Maria, three kids, and pup Otis. He is an accomplished human who believes in the power of redemption and living a life of purpose. 

In 2008, his then-girlfriend threw Mark a birthday party and he choose to drive them home afterwards. Laura unfortunately passed away as a result of that decision. What started for Mark as a promising law career and a looming marriage proposal took a detour. 

Mark is now a post-traumatic growth coach, author, and creator of the GROWTH journey, a structured, research-based program designed to help individuals heal, find meaning, and grow after trauma, loss, and other significant life disruptions. 

Book: Crashing: I Love You. Forgive Me.: O'Brien, Mark L.: 9781990461415: Amazon.com: Books

Program:  Coaching – Mark L. O'Brien 

Resources for individuals who fear they've caused  an accident: Post-Crash Resource Guide — Families for Safe Streets - USA Drunk Driving | Statistics and Resources | NHTSA SAFE Support — Streets Are For Everyone Home - The Hyacinth Fellowship 

Positive Psychology: What Is Positive Psychology & Why Is It Important? Master of Applied Positive Psychology | Penn LPS Boulder Crest Foundation - The Home of Posttraumatic Growth (PTG) 

Overdose Loss Survivors resources: Grief Resources for Families - Partnership to End Addiction ResourcesforFamiliesFacingOverdoseLoss.pdf Lifeline for Loss - Overdose Lifeline Grief Recovery for Those Who Have Lost Due to Drug Use -GRASP

Resources for people integrating after incarceration: Where Can You Get Help with Employment After Incarceration? – How to Justice Hud Housing Network Second Chance Guide | Reentry Resources for Formerly Incarcerated People 

Transcript

Jess 0:00

Welcome to Sparking the Torch Podcast. My name is Jess and I'll be your guide weekly to highlight guest tales of lived experiences that offer illuminating ideas and insights. Three years ago, my brother slash best friend died while on active duty in the US Army. The worst possible outcome happened, and I thought I'd never get by. When my world was dark others poured their light into me. Now it's my turn to return the favor. Storytelling inspires hope. Join us each week fellow torch sparklers, and prepare for transformation.

Jess Timmerman 0:30

Good afternoon and welcome to Sparking the Torch. every week I'll bring you a story of encouraging empowerment that hopefully sparks your torch to light up the world. This week I have the pleasure of introducing Mark from Maryland. Welcome to the pod Mark.

Mark O'Brien 0:44

Thanks, Jess. It's so nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

Jess Timmerman 0:46

Okay. these first 12 episodes of the pod are, to interview people I personally find inspirational and have them share their stories. with that, can you introduce yourself, and include why I might have tapped you for this.

Mark O'Brien 1:02

Yeah, of course I will. Jess, you of course know all these stories, but you have an audience, so tell them a little bit of the context, which is that we've known each other since college and probably, 20 years now.

Jess Timmerman 1:13

Probably more

Mark O'Brien 1:14

somewhere close to that. You

Jess Timmerman 1:15

have law school, and it took me seven years to get through undergrad.

Mark O'Brien 1:18

There we go. we've known each other quite a long time and, earlier in our friendship, I was in a car accident that I caused after drinking at the bars with my girlfriend Laura. And, as a result of the accident that I caused, Laura died. I was responsible for her death and I was convicted of negligent homicide for causing the crash that killed her. I went to jail and then I was on probation for several years afterwards. up until that point I'd had really a wonderful life and, a great experience in school and I had a promising career in front of me. I was finishing law school, and after the accident it seemed my whole world had collapsed and the things that I was looking forward to were no longer available. I was ashamed of having caused this accident and all the harm that caused in Laura's family. but I also felt I had an obligation to do something positive with having survived and having been responsible for that. I wanna stop just a little bit right there because I wanna say that's how I felt. After what happened. and I think because I caused the accident, there's more validity to that sense of obligation than maybe there is in other cases. but still that people can get really hung up on that sense of obligation. I'm gonna continue the story, but it's an important point

Jess Timmerman 2:32

and I think, in the context of me being a gold star sibling, I would say all of that is relevant. survivor's guilt.

Mark O'Brien 2:40

Yeah. and so I just wanna acknowledge it while continuing the story that sometimes that can become unhealthy and not a great reason to continue doing good things, even if it's initially feels something that motivates you. Okay. but. I did have this sense of obligation, but also this idea that it was important to have a meaningful life and to have a good life. that was good for other people too. And I got into work where I was helping other men who were coming home from prison to get jobs and move forward in their lives and then continue doing that kind of work, but not directly with individual people. I started working on public policy, around what happens to people after they've been incarcerated and after they've had a criminal conviction, what barriers stand in the way of getting work and housing those kinds of things. then that brought me into work related to substance use disorders and addiction. I, became the director of opioid overdose prevention for Baltimore City and then worked for another nonprofit where I was, Setting up similar local, public health responses to addiction and helping other communities to do that kind of work. all of that was really felt meaningful to be involved in efforts that were helping to save people's lives or redirect people's lives in a positive way. for me it was both this good thing that I got to be able to do, but it also was really important for the path that allowed me to heal from what happened. I got to know a lot of other people who had been through really horrific things and for whatever reason that had become motivation for them to do something positive in the world. I got to know a lot of parents who lost children to overdose, people who had been victims of crime or who had committed crimes. I learned that a lot of times people who have committed crimes have also been victims of crimes.

Jess Timmerman 4:22

Correct.

Mark O'Brien 4:23

I got really interested in this idea that these horrible experiences could somehow lead to good outcomes. And I started doing research and I learned about this idea of post-traumatic growth. I'm a little bit of a nerd, so I just started reading. in these books that I was reading about post-traumatic growth, I kept learning that they were part of this larger field called Positive Psychology. That was started at the University of Pennsylvania, by this, psychologist named Martin Seligman. I started learning more about his work and the Positive Psychology Center at Penn. then during COVID, I had this opportunity so many of our lives were put on hold that I had the time to enroll in their master's program and applied positive psychology. I went back to school with this idea that I would start a program to support people who'd gone through really awful things, to find some sense of meaning and purpose and to walk a path. Towards, I don't know, for what that kinda looks like for people. because I realized, I had this idea that this was a good way for people to heal, and that it was both good for them and good for the world. but I didn't actually know anything about how or why this happens besides that. It seemed to be something that happened in my life and a lot of other people's lives that I, I was surrounded by. Great. so then I got to dive into the research and, I figured out that it wasn't just that sometimes people go through these horrible things and then decide to give back in different ways. that was the lens that I had. But actually there's a whole slew of different ways that we change, that for us feel positive and meaningful. Even though the things we've gone through have been horrible and in most cases the kinds of things that I'm talking about, we would still take back, even though we recognize that some good has come out of them.

Jess Timmerman 6:03

Correct. And that's probably for people beginning, these journeys are at different parts, how do you come to love the worst thing that ever happened to you? And again, you said, if you had a time machine, it's the thing you would change

Mark O'Brien 6:14

Yeah. That's right.

Jess Timmerman 6:15

Okay, so it's fast. I in your introduction went through all my talking points'cause that's how your brilliant mind works. So we're gonna have to, I'm

Mark O'Brien 6:22

sorry,

Jess Timmerman 6:23

delve into all of the things you said. Where do you wanna,

Mark O'Brien 6:26

what was most interesting? Okay. Sorry, I don't mean to put

Jess Timmerman 6:29

you no. It's okay. I, no, that's good. This is organic. You're right. You and I have known each other. I did know Laura. you and I and Laura share a mutual best friend. Theresa works with me at Bill Batemans and You guys knew each other since high school, is that right?

Mark O'Brien 6:44

No, we met our freshman year of college.

Jess Timmerman 6:46

Okay.

Mark O'Brien 6:47

we all lived in the same dorm building.

Jess Timmerman 6:49

Okay.

Mark O'Brien 6:50

And Laura was Theresa's best friend from high school, so I met her in our sophomore year of college when she moved into the apartment with the girls from the dorms.

Jess Timmerman 6:59

Okay. I wanna go back to when you were in jail and, at the life you were building, seemingly fell apart, right?

Mark O'Brien 7:06

yeah.

Jess Timmerman 7:06

Lauren, One would say that was a marriage path, correct. And then your law career, and you are intellectually driven. looking back, how did you get yourself out of whatever you were doing to yourself mentally,

Mark O'Brien 7:19

slowly? you know, a few things. one is that the criminal justice system moves pretty slowly. By the time I was even charged with this crime was eight months after the crash happened. I had already gone through these periods of pretty close to like being pretty crazy, depressed and disoriented. not feeling like I understood myself or the world very well anymore, to also being surrounded by people who cared for me and supported me and helped me reflect and think through some of those things.

Jess Timmerman 7:48

Right.

Mark O'Brien 7:48

and held up a maybe a more compassionate mirror to me than I was willing to hold up to myself. I met my wife during that time who, had lost her father to cancer and, we bonded over this kind of grief process that we both found ourselves in. I was still close with Laura's family, so we were. Grieving and supporting each other. So there was a lot of healing that happened before I went to jail. And then it was when I found out I was being charged, it was oh, this spike of anxiety and grief and like this trauma that's you can't really start fully processing it until you know what the consequences are. and so in some ways it was like, that part, like I don't have to wait anymore to find out if this is happening. I knew,

Jess Timmerman 8:29

okay.

Mark O'Brien 8:30

and then when I had, once I had my sentence and it was Hey, I was facing up to 10 years and really I did a few months in jail and I knew at that point like, there's an end to at least this part of the process. And that felt really was the first time that it felt okay, I need to get serious about what happens next. I had a lot of shame and guilt, but I also came from maybe a prior place where I had Very high expectations for myself and other people had high expectations. so feeling like also having some stability in my life was a baseline expectation meant that I was gonna work really hard to restore that.

Jess Timmerman 9:06

Gotcha.

Mark O'Brien 9:06

Even though I wasn't particularly certain that I deserved it.

Jess Timmerman 9:09

Right.

Mark O'Brien 9:10

having to rely on other people was also not something I deserved. So figuring out hey, you're gonna have to figure this out because you're still just burdening other people with this shit that you caused.

Jess Timmerman 9:21

You are saying lots of words that, When I think of self-harm or fatal self-harm, the burdensome of other people. I'm sure to your loved ones in this time, they are worried about you. the Olympics is just wrapping up. I thought figure skater, Alyssa Lou, when she won, she had said something that I thought was so edifying she had talked about taking a break, when she was stressed out, I thought what she said was so important. I think we get into traps when we identify ourselves with our job or our expectations. you put it on you that you were gonna go to the best law school, you were gonna be Other people, you felt the pressure of other people wanting you to succeed as well. So I think it's really incredible what you did. You just kept re-evaluating what does my future look like? What choices do I have now And you did lean on people and I think. It may be in your way, not a gift, the criminal justice system moving slow so that you weren't dealing with everything at one, you could get a little footing, was helpful.

Mark O'Brien 10:23

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true. and to be honest, probably, most people would maybe be, I was pretty scared going

Jess Timmerman 10:30

correct

Mark O'Brien 10:30

to jail like that, most of what I expected was shaped violent kind of pop culture depictions of what incarceration would be like. And the truth. I'm a big guy and it's not like I'm, a particularly, frightened person, but yeah, I was scared. And, once I figured out that I was in actually a very safe place in general, like the specific facility, the

Jess Timmerman 10:52

facility,

Mark O'Brien 10:52

I was safe. I was surrounded by people I generally felt safe around. And, then it was really like I had this time that I was separated from my community. And, I'm a pretty, I to read. And at that I was in a very introspective, reflective place. And I had nothing but time and not like too much time, right? literally my, the time was a few months, that could have been many years. It was Hey, you have to go take a time out,

Jess Timmerman 11:17

right?

Mark O'Brien 11:18

And think about what you did and that's what I spent a few months doing. Just really thinking about, decisions I made that led to that moment that also you don't want to sit there doing like the, well what if this, what, but then more so You've had this wake up call, what kind of person do you want to be going forward when you realize that things probably need to be pretty different

Jess Timmerman 11:36

and I think it's pretty impressive that a lesser aware person might, sometimes we fall into traps of letting other people define us. And you took the time to make the power of who do I Mark O'Brien want to be? Correct?

Mark O'Brien 11:50

Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

Jess Timmerman 11:51

your wife came into a time where you guys both needed

Mark O'Brien 11:54

She's pretty awesome.

Jess Timmerman 11:55

there's still connection with Laura's family, right?

Mark O'Brien 11:57

yeah, we have three kids and they all know, Laura's dad and sister, Her dad is actually my daughter's godfather.

Jess Timmerman 12:06

That's beautiful.

Mark O'Brien 12:06

David Lara's father is one of the most amazing people you could ever meet. her whole family really. I can't say enough about the level of forgiveness and compassion that it would take for any individual, but an entire family to have embraced me in the way that they did immediately after Laura died, when we knew it was my fault. and ever since.

Jess Timmerman 12:25

they had already lost a daughter and they thought of you as a son. They didn't wanna lose a son too, right?

Mark O'Brien 12:30

I think that's right. what David has also said is if he became an angry, bitter person towards me, then he wouldn't have been the loving, warm person that his daughter loved. And that was really important to him.

Jess Timmerman 12:43

Yeah.

Mark O'Brien 12:44

again, a person who did not deserve what happened to him, but took a moment like that to think what kind of person do I wanna be in the way that I respond to this?

Jess Timmerman 12:52

That's incredible, man. So you wrote a book?

Mark O'Brien 12:55

I did. Yeah.

Jess Timmerman 12:56

And clearly forgiveness is a theme, but what's the other edge of the coin that you talk about?

Mark O'Brien 13:01

Yeah, to me it's, I think that it's a combination of really thinking about how we take accountability for the decisions we make, but that forgiveness. For yourself, for others winds up being this critical ingredient in how we move forward from anything. and I decided to write the book after, my church made a video about my family and that we'd been through this really difficult, painful past and, survived and become this family like any other family in the suburbs,

Jess Timmerman 13:31

Correct. that's Mark. He cuts the grass in his

Mark O'Brien 13:33

right. Yeah, exactly.

Jess Timmerman 13:34

tank top on Saturday.

Mark O'Brien 13:35

Yeah. We're local, regular folks who have a regular life after going through this hardship. And, people responded. The interesting thing that happened was a lot of people responded by reaching out to me and said that they had lost people. and that seeing me talk about. Rebuilding, but also being accountable for making the decision that I made that resulted in Lars death was healing for them. that just hearing the story made them feel they could understand another perspective about what happened. that was what made me decide to write the book. At the same time, I was learning about this idea of post-traumatic growth and thinking this path to healing seems like one that would be good for a lot of people. if there are ways to make this more common, then it already is because, we all see this. So it's not like this isn't a big surprise to people that this seems to happen in some cases. But I thought if there are ways to make this more common, that would be a good thing to do. and so I thought I would write this book that would tell my story and share lessons for how to make this. More likely. but it turned out it didn't make sense to have those two things in the same book. because when I went through that whole experience, I actually didn't know anything about how to make this right. Kind of more likely. And the things that I didn't necessarily help in everything. You were

Jess Timmerman 14:44

just treading for water in an

Mark O'Brien 14:45

ocean. Yeah, exactly. Nobody

Jess Timmerman 14:47

told you the manual, right?

Mark O'Brien 14:48

Yeah. So I wrote the book thinking I want to capture what this was actually in an authentic way that people could read and identify and say, yes, it really does feel this disorienting without trying to tell people here's the sun shiny side of this, just this is what it was for me and this is how life changed in some positive ways and some ways that continue to hurt. and. Then I went back at the same time I went back to school to study this and have now really focused on the other side of that, which is I'm trying to take myself back out of the story. sharing the story is important to be'cause we all need to know that there are other people out there who have felt this wow, my world doesn't make sense anymore.

Jess Timmerman 15:24

Right.

Mark O'Brien 15:25

Kind of feeling. but then it's okay, now the rest of this is not about me. It's about other people who are maybe a little earlier on this journey than I am and I journey because I'm not done.

Jess Timmerman 15:36

Correct And

Mark O'Brien 15:37

normal,

Jess Timmerman 15:37

you probably ever be correct.

Mark O'Brien 15:39

Yeah, exactly. None of us are. Yeah. but. I can process things more slowly and deliberately now than I used to have to. I know that earlier in this kind of journey, there's just a lot of processing going on that feels chaotic. so I've just tried to learn how to put a little bit of, a path, but I don't even wanna call it a path.'cause hey, here are some of the way points you might find yourself on along the way, and here are some ways you might navigate towards them a little bit more intentionally.

Jess Timmerman 16:09

But we're all unique and we all have different stones to pivot over the stream.

Mark O'Brien 16:13

yeah. Yes. I love that.

Jess Timmerman 16:14

Yeah. I think that in your first book you were going as the protagonist, right? And then this next version of your career and things, you're being more of a narrator or a guide. Correct.

Mark O'Brien 16:25

I love that. Yeah. I think that's exactly what I'm trying to think of this and for that, for me, that has meant still doing some of the work I was doing in addiction and criminal justice,

Jess Timmerman 16:34

right?

Mark O'Brien 16:34

But I'm more interested in how do I help other people get on this path regardless of what they decide is the next thing for them. I think that helping more people to walk that path is a gift to the world because people like you, who have been through and faced some really painful things. sorry, and I don't mean to put the spotlight on you'cause you

Jess Timmerman 16:55

not at all

Mark O'Brien 16:56

the

Jess Timmerman 16:56

conversation

Mark O'Brien 16:57

do it, but

Jess Timmerman 16:57

that's you

Mark O'Brien 16:58

as a friend or two who then decide hey, this is something that, there's some part of this that is not just for me. I just think it's just one of the most profound things about people that somehow we do that. and if it happens more, that's a way better thing than I could do with myself and my time than whatever I'm gonna do by myself.

Jess Timmerman 17:19

right. Everything seems more daunting when it's on us, when it's ego, when it's just us. Right. But you said in the disclaimer when we were talking, something about callings and you alluded to it. we as humans don't want the uck, the medial trying to get through it. Sometimes we put ourselves on a path to find purpose that isn't authentic.

Mark O'Brien 17:44

Yeah.

Jess Timmerman 17:44

What

Mark O'Brien 17:44

can you I, so I think that can be true. That can be. True when we can rush ourselves into these things because we get this idea in our head that's the way to respond to this thing is to put ourselves out there. And sometimes that can be really helpful. and sometimes it's not. sometimes it's not the right decision to rush into those kinds of things. but I don't think it's necessarily to say Hey, don't do that. I do think that the bigger thing is that we're never. Obligated to continue down the same path that we've started down.

Jess Timmerman 18:18

Okay.

Mark O'Brien 18:18

Right.

Jess Timmerman 18:18

what advice would you give people if they, the worst thing in the world happens to them. They decide they're gonna register, pay all that money, get a board and start a nonprofit, and then they're driving themselves nutty over it, or this is just an example of something. Yeah, because we do, the worst thing has happened to us. We need to pour our energy into something, Yeah. But if somebody finds themselves on that path, what would you tell them to pay attention to or,

Mark O'Brien 18:44

I think the first thing is to slow down. And, so what I think about first is before making any kinds of decisions that involve changes, you can't reverse, right? So if it's changing, my job means leaving a job and now,

Jess Timmerman 18:59

right?

Mark O'Brien 18:59

That means that is not no longer available or I'm investing. Money or time that is valuable to me and I can't get back. for different people, that's gonna be different amounts.

Jess Timmerman 19:09

Correct.

Mark O'Brien 19:09

before doing anything that is irreversible for you is to get to a point where you feel you have control over, your reflection on what happened. more often than not, we're all gonna have moments where it just feels my thoughts are a little outta control. I'm really upset. I, all of a sudden it feels really fresh and intense. That's okay. I think that's fine. But if you're still in a place where it feels like that's pretty consistently the norm, I wouldn't make decisions that you can't reverse.

Jess Timmerman 19:38

Okay. That

Mark O'Brien 19:38

is a good, that doesn't mean you can't be involved in any way. Correct. Right away in causes and things that might. From what you to flow your role

Jess Timmerman 19:45

a minute to.

Mark O'Brien 19:46

and then I think the next thing is not just thinking about okay, then it would be meaningful to me to be involved in this issue is to actually back up and think what are some of my strengths and some of the ways I already show up in the world that I enjoy showing up in the world? what are some things I would enjoy doing while pursuing whatever, if there's an issue or a mission that feels it's coming out of what you went through and that actually winds up being part of the non. Irreversible nature of this, right? Which is that if you start taking some actions that feel natural anyway and you enjoy doing them and you're good at them, you're gonna make progress on whatever you've decided to do anyway.

Jess Timmerman 20:26

The momentum's, just building.

Mark O'Brien 20:27

Yeah. and the sense of agency that you get from taking action and the sense of feeling good doing something that you like, that the actions are actually something you're good at, or feel good doing right. Is also, so if it's Hey, I'm really good at connecting with people, maybe it's, so are you gonna find a way to initially, have that be a big part of what you're doing or? For me, I like to write and I enjoy writing and I feel good writing and I when I write, I communicate well with other people. So for me it's really natural to right away start writing stuff. Even if it's Hey, I never wind up publishing this, or, but that's a way that I'm then processing.

Jess Timmerman 21:01

Yep.

Mark O'Brien 21:01

What I went through, I feel good about what I'm doing and if at the end of the day it winds up being something that is also good for others, then that's great. so I'd slow down and, and then also, even with irreversible steps that still doesn't mean you can't change direction. And I think about for me it was initially I got involved in this work related to criminal justice and addiction, and that became very central. And that was how I got this sense of purpose out of what happened. but then over time that focus shifted and I started thinking about how do I make this more Other people can experience this healing pathway and it's hard to make a change after you've committed in one direction, but just saying you know what, that's okay. what made meaning out of what I went through before doesn't have to be the thing that makes meaning out of it going forward. I've seen a lot where, people will be involved in a cause for, 5, 6, 10 years and decide to move on. And I think that's totally,

Jess Timmerman 21:52

that's okay.

Mark O'Brien 21:53

That's totally okay. And later what makes meaning out of what you went through might be very different. And it might be the future focus on family or it just might be something different, or that might just have a smaller or larger role at different parts of your journey.

Jess Timmerman 22:05

Somebody just told me today that authenticity is the highest vibration. My seven-year-old skips everywhere, imagine if we did that. we just always have to be authentic to ourselves and

Mark O'Brien 22:17

Yeah.

Jess Timmerman 22:18

That achieves the best good.

Mark O'Brien 22:19

Yeah. And I think that's, so that's really important because I think also part of this is the way we understand what happened constantly changes throughout our, that's true of. Almost all of our memories because they're always re-contextualized by what we've experienced since.

Jess Timmerman 22:33

Right.

Mark O'Brien 22:34

and so just because you've told a version of your story and what it means for you in the past also does not mean that what that story means for you in the future has to stay the same. It is normal for that to change.

Jess Timmerman 22:47

Yeah. And we're working towards talking about positive psychology, but we as humans have a negative bias. Right. It's easier to live in

Mark O'Brien 22:54

that

Jess Timmerman 22:55

space. Yeah.

Mark O'Brien 22:55

Yeah. And it makes sense. if we're living in the wild where there are threats and danger, and being excluded from our social group could mean, isolation and death. it makes sense for us to be attuned to what's not working, to threats, to what's going wrong, to losses and to not really pay a lot of, to not have our brain invest a lot of attention into what's working and going well. we just, that doesn't mean that we don't notice it. we obviously, all notice things that are good. it just means that our perception is naturally skewed towards what's not going well or what could go badly in the future. And so if we want to have a pretty accurate appraisal of the world, we have to be intentional about focusing also on things that are good, going well and might turn out great. that's, and it's not to say we don't want to go in the direction of being like, oh, I don't have to do anything. Everything's gonna be great. but that actually to get at a more accurate perception of what is happening in the world, we have to uns skew our perception just a little bit.

Jess Timmerman 23:55

what is the word you told me to look up on Friday? Do you remember?

Mark O'Brien 23:58

Ple.

Jess Timmerman 23:58

Yeah. Could you tell people about that word? Yeah. I had never heard it. I didn't know.

Mark O'Brien 24:02

I heard this when I was in school. One of my, when I went back to school, one of my classmates brought this word up as, I can't even remember the context, but I think essentially this is what we've done while we've been in this master's program. and the definition of Kati Wimple is to set off in a purposeful direction, toward an unknown destination. So, and

24:20

I,

Jess Timmerman 24:20

and that's everything you're talking about, Just live the day with the best intention. And it might turn into a book that you recycle, but at least

Mark O'Brien 24:27

that's right. Yeah, exactly. that doesn't mean being totally in the wind, It does mean being purposeful and saying this is the. Way that I wanna move forward in the world, in this direction. But it means not being so wed to the outcome that you can't shift and allow events to direct you a little bit, without allowing events and other people's opinions and stuff to control where you're going. Like you have the sense of that's the direction.

Jess Timmerman 24:54

you are right about paying attention to strength. That's why I keep circling back to what you and I are doing today. I like to show up in the world. Being a bartender suited me. because you talk to hundreds of people and you travel by hearing that, I it's, yeah, but I don't wanna go back to bartending. I need to sustain that in a way that's intellectually stimulating without the four AM bedtimes

Mark O'Brien 25:18

yeah. And you can show up in the same way for people that makes them feel comfortable opening up, and just feels casual and warm at the same times. It's hey, but this is a real conversation.

Jess Timmerman 25:27

Correct.

Mark O'Brien 25:28

And you get to do that. As part of your also moving this personal purpose forward.

Jess Timmerman 25:32

My Codi Wimple.

Mark O'Brien 25:34

Your Coty Wimple. Yeah.

Jess Timmerman 25:35

Is I want to talk about your masters at UP Penn. That's huge. That's an amazing school. Is it an Ivy?

Mark O'Brien 25:41

It is, yeah. it's an Ivy school. there's lots of schools that are not Ivy schools that are wonderful. The really cool thing about being there is that, because this field of positive psychology really has its home there. Within that program, all of these like amazing researchers and people doing amazing work with people and organizations come to visit the campus. and the lecturers in the program are from every school in the country that's doing work around this.

Jess Timmerman 26:08

Wow.

Mark O'Brien 26:09

It you have the most impress, you're like, at this buffet. What's

Jess Timmerman 26:12

that? do you have a most impressive lecturer or someone you've

Mark O'Brien 26:16

I, well, okay, so I'll say externally, if we're just talking who would, blows people's minds? I it's Dr. Seligman.

Jess Timmerman 26:21

Okay.

Mark O'Brien 26:22

Yeah. we get to call him Marty and that, oh, the creator of a

Jess Timmerman 26:25

field by their first name. Go

Mark O'Brien 26:26

ahead. Yeah. So Marty is brilliant and wonderful and renowned and, wise and also changes his mind. So again, thinking of his path has changed multiple times in his life, and that hasn't been because he is directionless and it's because he's been open and realized that life, he was, I think in his sixties probably when he started positive psychology, he was already the president. Of the American Psychological Association, and it was hey, this is missing So all less 40 year

Jess Timmerman 26:48

that don't think we have a path.

Mark O'Brien 26:50

Right? Right. I

Jess Timmerman 26:50

mean, all these

Mark O'Brien 26:51

people

Jess Timmerman 26:51

continually show up later in life.

Mark O'Brien 26:54

That's right. Yeah, exactly. who did I find engaging and challenging and really interesting ways that I wasn't expecting was, this Dr. J Clifton, who runs the Primals lab, and he had actually gone through the same master's program that I did and then went on to get his PhD. had this idea that we all operate in the world with these basic ideas about what the world's whether it's good or bad, whether it's safe or unsafe, fair or unfair. and. This idea had really like never been explored in much depth besides just a few. Basically like whether it was safe and whether it was just were the big areas that had been explored. he and his colleagues wound up mapping, I think 26 of these

Jess Timmerman 27:37

Wow.

Mark O'Brien 27:37

Out these basic beliefs that we have about the world and figuring out how to measure them and where people sit on a spectrum. Okay. And, are now in the process of figuring out, can we change them? They're really hard to change. This is almost like personality level stuff.

Jess Timmerman 27:51

Wow.

Mark O'Brien 27:51

and. what outcomes do people get when they have differences about these? and it turns out in general, you wind up with better, mental health and kinda wellbeing outcomes. If you are a little bit more on kinda the positive side for some of these,

Jess Timmerman 28:05

for instance, it'd

Mark O'Brien 28:05

be hard to like

Jess Timmerman 28:06

scarcity and abundance if you believe that

Mark O'Brien 28:08

that's, that is an, pri world belief.

Jess Timmerman 28:11

Okay? So if you there,

Mark O'Brien 28:12

city

Jess Timmerman 28:12

abundance is

Mark O'Brien 28:13

a pri world

Jess Timmerman 28:13

belief, hold onto your stuff, you're not gonna get it back. Or if you believe, you know, the world is

Mark O'Brien 28:18

for everybody,

Jess Timmerman 28:19

right?

Mark O'Brien 28:20

yes. so j shared his, he was an professor for one of the classes in the program. So he taught research methods and I now help teach research methods to undergrads at Penn because I got so into this class. Very cool. and. But he came and lectured in another course about his research around these primal world beliefs and said, they really don't change very much. Or at that point, his theory was that they don't change very much or very easily once. We're adults. I emailed him and said, I think that's probably true, but I think maybe the exception would be when people have had really serious trauma that these. Ideas would be changed.

Jess Timmerman 28:55

Correct.

Mark O'Brien 28:55

and he said, yeah, that's what some people believe. I don't think that's true. it'd be really interesting. but I loved having this,

Jess Timmerman 29:02

dialogue,

Mark O'Brien 29:03

being able to have a conversation with somebody who was Hey, that's, that sounds, based on research that's reasonable. I don't think it's true based on this other research and we should try to figure that out. And so what we did was to complete my master's degree, I did a study of primal world beliefs and their relationship to post-traumatic growth in people who have accidentally, caused the deaths of other people.

Jess Timmerman 29:26

Okay.

Mark O'Brien 29:26

what I found was that what Jer thought was true was that our primal world beliefs would shape how we responded to the trauma.

Jess Timmerman 29:34

Okay.

Mark O'Brien 29:35

I thought that would be true, but that also the trauma would change. Our primal world beliefs. that's really hard to show in the kind of research, in trauma research because we can't intentionally traumatize people. That Correct. Would be obviously extremely unethical. So you have to ask have you changed? Because you can't really measure people before.

Jess Timmerman 29:53

Correct.

Mark O'Brien 29:53

but, and so anyway, without getting into the kind of complexity of what it takes to research this, what my part of the research showed was that people who had caused accidental death or injury did seem to have more negative primal world beliefs. Like their beliefs had shifted in a, the world is less good, the world is less safe, or at least were different. Whether they had shifted or not, you can't really prove, but

Jess Timmerman 30:16

Okay.

Mark O'Brien 30:16

Seemed to be different from people who hadn't gone through this experience. and at the same time, people whose primal world beliefs were more positive, right? Even if they'd been moved in a more negative direction, were more positive than other people who'd been through. Traumatic experience of causing somebody else's death. they were more likely to experience post-traumatic growth.

Jess Timmerman 30:36

Okay.

Mark O'Brien 30:37

then we wound up publishing a bigger paper with some other researchers in his lab. I'm not gonna name drop because it's like it, boring inside stuff. But just to say in case any of them listened to this, like there were a lot of other people involved who did great research on this, not just me and Jar. wonderful, other researchers. but that, these things are really stable and they really looking at a whole lot of people, like they, the worst experiences really don't seem to change them, except this very specific, like severe trauma, in this case of accidentally killing, causing somebody else's death. but I think that is a stand in for the most kind of horrific types of trauma that people face and other types of things that we think of traumatic that are very upsetting. Don't seem to shift people that much, so the specific examples in the research that we looked at, and they've actually done more than, I haven't read all of it yet, but, were people who had chronic and life threatening illnesses Gotcha. Or were from, neighborhoods or backgrounds that we would consider very vulnerable and marginalized and or dangerous.

Jess Timmerman 31:43

Gotcha.

Mark O'Brien 31:43

so that's actually also a very hopeful thing to remind us that like where we've been in life for the most part, doesn't determine who we're gonna become.

Jess Timmerman 31:52

That is the hopeful way.

Mark O'Brien 31:53

oh, it doesn't seem to affect folks very much. And it sounds like I'm saying like, so what they went through isn't that, you know, that's what I'm actually saying is like people can go through some really awful things and it doesn't seem to change whether you can still show up and think that the world is good and the world is safe and beautiful and abundant. You can go through some pretty tough stuff, still believe those things and that can contribute to your having a, a good life. And that even if you've been through something that has made you feel like those things aren't as true, that doesn't mean that those feelings don't exist anymore.

Jess Timmerman 32:26

right.

Mark O'Brien 32:27

you might have thought the world was really safe and now you think it's Kind of safe. you're

Jess Timmerman 32:31

right. in undergrad, taking abnormal psych and learning say you're somebody that scores high on those adverse childhood experiences, When you first start hearing that stuff, you're I'm screwed.

Mark O'Brien 32:42

Yeah.

Jess Timmerman 32:42

But what you're saying is no. you have some healing to do and

Mark O'Brien 32:46

Yeah,

Jess Timmerman 32:46

I wanna talk about positive psychology I first learned about positive psychology. I volunteer a bit with the Travis Manion Foundation, and I got picked to go on an expedition in Sunita, Arizona. I'm still not sure if I say that word right. anyway, that's where Boulder Crest Foundation is. And they're really high in this.

Mark O'Brien 33:03

are the highest. just to be clear, their

Jess Timmerman 33:06

facility is beautiful. I need you to go down there.

Mark O'Brien 33:08

Just to be clear. Boulder Crest is, the person, I don't think he's the CEO, but essentially the person who is responsible for clinical programming within Boulder Crest is, Richard Esky and his research partner, Lawrence Calhoun, are the two researchers who, initially did all the research to develop this concept of post-traumatic growth and how to measure it.

Jess Timmerman 33:29

Right?

Mark O'Brien 33:29

So Boulder Crest they have multiple locations. They have one

Jess Timmerman 33:32

close

Mark O'Brien 33:32

to you, not just like amazing

Jess Timmerman 33:34

Right.

Mark O'Brien 33:34

Facilities, but that is the state-of-the-art for post-traumatic growth

Jess Timmerman 33:38

model

Mark O'Brien 33:38

programming. Yes.

Jess Timmerman 33:39

They do so many wonderful things with veterans. when we were, we had to do a service project. I was asking Darcy that works there, if they have carried what they know works with veterans to first responders and they had been recently working with the Tucson Police Department and they could show a marked growth in fatal self harm. what they're doing is working. so where was I going? Positive psychol. That was the first time. Travis Manion Foundation. They're big on this idea of positive psychology and I think sometimes here positivity. And now that's lumped with toxic positivity. a, how would you define positive psychology and B, what is the cool thing you personally Mark O'Brien are working on right now with that?

Mark O'Brien 34:18

Okay. yeah, and I also do want to distinguish,'cause I think what you brought up earlier about our natural negativity bias and then the discussion that we were just having about how really like the higher end. Trauma experiences could shift our primal world beliefs, in a more negative direction, right? so that intentionally focusing on things that are positive is not about moving in like an unrealistically optimistic and frankly you can get loony, right? This toxic positivity where everything is fine all the time. That is not what I talk about. I don't think it's healthy and especially if you are going through something really difficult, right? I don't think that pretending that isn't true or denying or stifling your negative emotions is healthy. there is some emerging research that it can be okay to push down negative emotions temporarily. in what in normal conversation, think of as compartmentalizing, that can be healthy as long as you're not. Not unpacking those emotions at other times. Right?

Jess Timmerman 35:20

Correct.

Mark O'Brien 35:20

sometimes you have to go to work, pretend things are okay, and do your job and that's okay. If you then go home and acknowledge that those feelings are there and reflect and try to work through them.

Jess Timmerman 35:30

Correct. I was on a podcast with, Scott de Luo. He lost his brother. They were both overseas in war at the same time, and he got the notice that his brother had been killed in combat. so clearly he can't unpack'cause he's still over there deployed. So that's a, I have to button this up until I get home, until my physical presence is safe. And then I have a lot of work to do

Mark O'Brien 35:53

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, Scott, I, I did a podcast with Scott too. He is a great,

Jess Timmerman 35:58

he's like you a brilliant mind.

Mark O'Brien 36:00

He's really, a cool guy.

Jess Timmerman 36:02

Okay. I

Mark O'Brien 36:02

distracted your

Jess Timmerman 36:03

thought process,

Mark O'Brien 36:04

No, that's okay. that's it's organic. what I think about positive psychology is that it is, an effort to use social science and all the tools that we have within psychology to not only address dysfunction and disorder, the things that we all suffer from in our psychology from time to time, depression, anxiety, these harder things with trauma. or the more, the other kinds of mental health concerns that people may have. and to use those same kind of research and application tools to identify what we can also do to build up the positive and, good things that we're hoping for people to experience within their psychology. So it's not about ignoring or erasing those other things. What we have found is that some of the things that work in positive psychology and trying to build the good wind up mitigating and minimizing some of the things that we were hoping to. Treat in the, in, in the mental health, in kind of the more traditional mental health space. but I think that they're complimentary, not opposing sides of this work. and more and more like the things they, they tend to bleed together because the things that positive psychology is discovering, are really applicable when people are going through difficult things. And that's what brings us to mental health treatment a lot of times. so it's this complimentary area. And then, my specific lens and the work that I'm doing within that community in that world is focused on what are the applications of positive psychology when shit has gone really bad, and pardon my language, when things have gone really bad, what are the uses of these tools and which ones maybe are not useful? How do we use them in ways that still acknowledge, Things are difficult. And so right now that's what I'm in the process of doing is launching this new program and I keep talking about the journeys that people are on because that really is what I think of this as. and that's why the program that I'm launching is the Growth Journey. and it's this guided journey through some of these tools and ideas. And that's really what I emphasize with people is that it's this 16 week. Journey, but it's a 16 week educational program to help people learn about some of the tools that are available. Not to be Hey, at the end of these 16 weeks, you'll have post-traumatic grown and you're ready to move on. But to say, Hey, at the end of these 16 weeks, I'll have walked with you on some serious reflection practices and some actions you can take in the world and in your life that you can then decide among them which are worth moving forward with indefinitely. they wind up being tools that I revisit and reuse, in different ways at different times, and are things that it also turns out, for the most part, are really useful when things are going well too.

Jess Timmerman 38:43

Okay.

Mark O'Brien 38:43

I've just adapted them to acknowledge the difficult things that are happening and to avoid. what can happen in these kinds of programs, which is that we encourage people to shortchange the difficult part of this. Okay. And we're okay, let's focus on what's going well. to really leave the room for people to participate and say Hey, this has what I've been going through has sucked the whole time.

Jess Timmerman 39:04

right.

Mark O'Brien 39:05

And has continued to suck even while I've been doing this and I appreciate that doing this helped it feel not as bad and made it feel there is some beauty and light to move towards.

Jess Timmerman 39:17

Yeah, because I think we trip ourselves up a, if anyone ever tells you they can cure your post-traumatic stress, run. Yes. And I think it's very humanizing us that have went through the worst things. We think a hundred percent isn't attainable, but maybe a hundred percent isn't what we're going for. We're going for 80 at parts of a day. Right?

Mark O'Brien 39:38

Yeah. and that, I will say my hope, and I think that a common outcome of these things is that parts of your life or parts of the way you see yourself are actually better than they were before the bad thing happened. And that doesn't mean that the bad reversing the bad thing wouldn't still be the preferred option. but that, for example, if you've lost somebody, There is no replacing what has been lost. And so your relationship with the person you've lost can never be better than it was

Jess Timmerman 40:12

correct,

Mark O'Brien 40:12

because you don't have that person anymore. It's also true that you could wind up with a more enriching community life overall where you experience or are able to give more love in your overall life. and even if that's not the case, there may be other areas of your life where you do feel things wind up in a better place. I understand myself better. I take more actions for the good of others. I have what I think is a wiser, more realistic appraisal of the world, and I know I can respond to hard things. These can be really empowering outcomes again, that still don't take away the really difficult reality.

Jess Timmerman 40:50

you give words to something that most people can't define. So good job. That's a gift you should do stuff with that. I'm

Mark O'Brien 40:56

working on that for,

Jess Timmerman 40:56

Oh, okay. How do people find your 16 week journey? Can you talk about who your ideal person would

Mark O'Brien 41:03

be? Yeah, I think I just described them so I would say to the point that you asked about earlier of when should people become involved in new things? My answer is very similar. This is not probably a good program if you feel your thoughts are fully and completely overwhelming, which is not because there's something wrong with what you're going through. It's just that's a normal part of this process and it's a part that you can't rush yourself through.

Jess Timmerman 41:30

Right.

Mark O'Brien 41:30

And it's hard to do any kind of intentional reflection when it feels your brain is taking that process over without you having a lot of control.

Jess Timmerman 41:38

Right.

Mark O'Brien 41:38

to be honest, somebody going through this program has to be willing to at least be curious about the possibility that there could be good, some good outcomes. and the truth is that is not, also not a judgment about where people are because it's also really normal to feel it would be offensive or, somehow cheapening what happened.

Jess Timmerman 41:59

Right?

Mark O'Brien 41:59

If you were to even consider the possibility that there could be good outcomes,

Jess Timmerman 42:03

you're right, you have to honor your own experience. If that is, go to a rage room, break stuff, or just,

Mark O'Brien 42:09

yes. And so I would say those to me are the two criteria. in addition to it's designed for people who have been through really hard things. You could use the program if you have been through a bad day and it has great reflections that might help you understand yourself better. but this is really designed for people who have been through some pretty hard things,

Jess Timmerman 42:28

right?

Mark O'Brien 42:28

and then those two criteria that like, life does not feel so overwhelming, like life. you're not still trying to even figure out how do you survive in the new reality? And also your thoughts aren't just constantly swirling,

Jess Timmerman 42:41

right?

Mark O'Brien 42:41

And then the other part is that you're willing to accept my invitation to explore the possibility that some good things could still come out of what happened.

Jess Timmerman 42:49

I like that. Willing invitation, explore. Those are all very

Mark O'Brien 42:54

Yeah. And it's because this is different for everybody.

Jess Timmerman 42:56

correct.

Mark O'Brien 42:57

There's also I'm not saying you're gonna have 20% more post-traumatic growth at the end of this. Right. I think for some people that it is going to be quite life changing.

Jess Timmerman 43:06

Correct.

Mark O'Brien 43:06

and for some people it's gonna, there's gonna be a few things that resonate and that's gonna be great. there's probably gonna be some folks who, encounter the program and it's just not for them. and that's okay. I really hope that doesn't discourage people from continuing to search for what would be helpful.

Jess Timmerman 43:22

right. Okay. okay. You're,

Mark O'Brien 43:25

oh, and where to go? Growth and goodness.com.

Jess Timmerman 43:28

Growth and goodness.com. Okay. I will put it in the show note. if people are curious about your first book, could you tell the name where to find it?

Mark O'Brien 43:36

Yes. So Crashing. I love you. Forgive me. And you can go to Amazon and if you search Mark O. Bryan Crashing, you'll find it.

Jess Timmerman 43:44

might even see a fun little blurb of you with Jada Pinkett Smith. An

Mark O'Brien 43:47

interview. It's true. You might.

Jess Timmerman 43:48

That's true. What, so to me, again, still very inspiring person because somebody went from jail to a master's program to teaching, to creating curriculum. You have to tell our listeners, something uninspiring about your life.

Mark O'Brien 44:05

This is funny because we've had these recent snowstorms in Maryland, and. We had this first one, we got a bunch of snow in January. We got for us, a lot of snow, maybe like a foot. And it had turned into this solid ice.

Jess Timmerman 44:18

Oh no. And

Mark O'Brien 44:18

so I have a son who's in high school and I sent him outside to shovel and which he was, he was doing thankfully, and I can see him from where I'm sitting right now, like at my desk. Yeah, he's doing fine. There's no reason that this strapping 15-year-old boy cannot handle this shoveling situation. Okay. And I'm on a conversation, so I can't get up from the computer and I look up and my, I'm guessing in her late fifties to middle sixties neighbor probably, yeah, I'm gonna say mid to late fifties. neighbor is walks up and starts helping him do the shoveling. And This is, again, this is a woman 10 to 15 years older than I am.

Jess Timmerman 44:58

Correct. Three times this teenager's age at least.

Mark O'Brien 45:01

Exactly. And I am mortified that he is letting her shovel. Not just that he's letting her do what I asked him to do, but that I am now sitting here watching this.

Jess Timmerman 45:12

You're like,

Mark O'Brien 45:12

older than me, woman shovel my driveway while I sit in a chair watching. So we got had another snowstorm today. it's not as much and it's not frozen and it wasn't anywhere near as much work to clean up. But I went out at five o'clock this morning and shoveled all her walkways in her driveway. and I'll never let her know that, it was me or anything, but I needed to restore the balance.

Jess Timmerman 45:33

that is a perfect story. Yeah. You don't think she knows who did it.

Mark O'Brien 45:38

I'm sure she maybe has her suspicions, but

Jess Timmerman 45:40

Okay.

Mark O'Brien 45:41

she never took credit with me. for what she did. So

Jess Timmerman 45:44

you don't know if she didn't go to Tee the next day until her little friend

Mark O'Brien 45:48

Yeah. Would've this while this perfectly capable man watched through his front window

Jess Timmerman 45:53

in his heated house.

Mark O'Brien 45:55

Yes.

Jess Timmerman 45:56

That's perfect. Thank you. Good story.

Mark O'Brien 45:58

Yeah.

Jess Timmerman 45:59

Okay.

Mark O'Brien 45:59

Thank you.

Jess Timmerman 46:00

Thanks for joining us, mark. And thank you torch sparklers for listening. Remember, every story has the power to heal. Share yours and let it inspire transformation.

Jess 46:09

It means the world to me that you clicked Sparking the Torch Pod. If you like what you heard, please leave me a five star review. If you've got a story you'd like to have highlighted, shoot me an email. Thanks again.