Episode 14 - Ethan - Disenfranchised Grief / Loss / Living Authentically

This week we interview thirty-six-year-old Digital Management Professional from Alpharetta, Georgia. Ethan offers a candid account of losing a cousin to miliary suicide and actively sorting through painful emotions in order to achieve a life of well-being, peace and purpose.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Sparking the Torch Podcast. I'm Jess and I'll be your guide. I lost my brother, Sergeant First Class Zachary M. Brown, while he was on active duty to suicide. These days I'm obsessed with actionable kindness. Individually, we are a light, but when we share our stories, whose torch might we spark? Today, on episode 14, I'm interviewing Ethan from Georgia. I wanted his insights on losing a cousin, as this is not a gold star lapel pen. We talk loss, grief, finding purpose, and spirituality. Thanks for showing up today, Sparklers. Welcome back to Sparking the Torch. Are you burnt out and frustrated of your streaming services or algorithms telling you the world is dark and scary? Or if you just buy this, your dreams will come true? If so, welcome to my inviting storytelling space. This week I am joined by someone I have known their entire life. Drummold, please. It's my cousin Ethan from Georgia. How are you today, Ethan?

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Hey James, how's it going?

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Okay. Welcome to the podcast. I had this idea to talk to Ethan because often when we talk about loss, we talk about spouses or kids or parents. We as sibling grievers are often forgotten, but we have to think, especially in a loss which happened to my brother Zach, 135 people are affected. And Zach was big and loud, so the number's probably over 135, and he's somewhere in the ethers bragging about it. But in my mind, I wanted to talk to somebody that's often considered a disenfranchised griever. Ethan is a perfect person for today. Normally on the angel anniversaries, I like to run and hide away, but it's May Sember in Mom Land. So that means soccer tournaments and recitals, and you can't just book a stay at a casino with palm trees. So Ethan, thanks for joining us today.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Okay. Can you introduce yourself to our audience?

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Yeah. Ethan Brown, obviously, Jess's cousin. Growing up with a younger sister, you guys were always the closest cousins, even though we didn't see you guys as much as we may have studied mom's side. We were always so close to not just age, but we were all very similar, what we like to do and who we were. And growing up in the horse farm, we're kind of disconnected from a lot of the immediate area when you don't have a license, you don't have a neighborhood to run down the street and hang out with people in the culture shack and you don't have those existing relationships at school. I remember growing up wishing I had an older sibling. It was always weird being the older one. You always wanted somebody else to look up to. I had you guys, those older siblings in my eyes. You both the big sister, and then as things progressed with you and you going off to Maryland, and then Zach spending a lot of time with us, he really became uh a big brother. That's our relationship as cousins working further than that, in my opinion. And myself, I spent the last 10 plus years an autopilot, and even after Zach's death was very much an autopilot. And then over the last year and a half, maybe two, has really been a period of awakening, exploration, reflection, and all the things that come with opening your eyes to realizing you've never really been living or even present the majority of your life. One of those things that started that path was realizing that I needed to get into therapy. But the catalyst that got me in there was the notion or idea of talking about Zach. Our family has never been the best about communication. As we may get into it in this podcast, I'll maybe say that one for the therapist session. But family was very disenfranchised in communication, especially around the Zach situation. That really opened my eyes to a lot of things. I've spent the last year and a half really trying to find out not just what to do with my life and where to go, but where to find purpose. That's been the biggest thing is purpose and authenticity. And how to honor somebody that was in a space that you're not a part of, right? As a civilian and not a service member, honoring them as a family member, but as a service member as well. What's led me to a couple different things in my current place. And yeah, it's just been a very opening year or two. Just explore relationships that were existing but really didn't have the chance to flourish eat. It's been fun.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Fun. Everybody says therapy and self-discovery and fun in the same sentence.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Um fun is just like saying, yeah, it sucks at times, but it's worth it.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

This is where we are now. Bring up a lot of things that my number two pencil is writing away. I'm six years older than you on our dad's side of the family. There were three boys. The Wyoming Browns would be our Uncle Steve, who had three kids, twin girls and a boy. My dad and mom had me and Zach. And then the Georgia Browns would be you and your younger sister. There are seven of us. Yeah, I really want to commend you because we've talked about this before of you trying to live in your body and be more purposeful. I'm just so proud of you to see this version, Ethan 2.0. I mean, I've been around for farm boy Ethan. I've been around for gym rat Ethan. And you take all of that into this beautiful soup. If you would have told me when I was in college and you were sleeping on my couch in the colony that one day we'd be on a podcast talking about feelings, I would have told you out of your mind, but I'm just really so proud of your growth. I just don't even know who this non-defensive open person is. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

So I appreciate that. But part of that's attributed to watching your growth as well over the last five or six years. It's just or even 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

What a crazy ride. You are right. We grew up in similar households. College was a non-negotiable. Careers were important. You had two parents that had incredible careers for impressive companies. I'm glad you brought a horse farm thing. My next interview as an equine therapist.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Is she an equine therapist around for people using horses as therapy?

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Yeah, that's a good idea. Particularly for service members.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

I've talked to a lot of people about that. I think it's important for everybody to experience a horse, not even from a therapeutic standpoint, but especially for children. It's a weird analogy, but I'm going to use it. Horses are like firearms in the sense that they're large and they have the ability to kill you. You don't know what you don't know until you experience them. That amount of power to experience in that prey animal is an eye-opening, especially when you realize how much more horses are attuned to your emotions and your energy beyond even a dog. A dog is a pack animal, they respond to more dominating energy. But a horse, you can fake it all day long to anybody and everybody, but a horse is going to see right through that and they're going to respond to the energy. And that's a level of self-understanding I think everybody should experience.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

I would 100% agree with you. We are dabbly horse people in the fact that we do not live on property or consume our life the way it does for you guys and the business. We semi-lease, but Hadley has to go out in the pasture and grab grade. There's just something so majestic at looking at something so powerful. They are sponges of whatever is going on with us.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Yeah, but I remember reading something that was talking about the energy level that a horse's heart operates at. And it's almost a frequency that's not a normal frequency. It was a headline that I read instead of reading actually the article.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Which we all think.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Yeah, it talked about their attunement though to energy and frequency. And ever since then, I've had a person or two before that have seen me around horses and seen me not. And you said Ethan around a horse is a very different thing to ethan around people.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

As a kid, you are the sun, moon, everything orbits around you, nothing else. So if I was 13, you must have been seven. I remember hearing about your response to losing my dad. That was a concrete person in your life that's what do you mean they're not here anymore? What do you mean we're at a funeral? That was the dialogue I heard. Man, this was really traumatic moment for Ethan. And it broke my heart. So thanks.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

I think things that I look back on is I've had an anxiety and fear of death my whole life. What started it was, and I'm not gonna point flame or pointing fingers, but at that age, seven, eight years old, not only attending an open casket funeral, but walking up to an open casket and seeing a dead in any way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

But doesn't also make sense in your understanding the concept, probably that a 40-year-old can die or a dad can die is I still have I have two main memories.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

So I memory of sitting in the kitchen with you guys visiting us in the neighborhood house. Very vague memory. It was probably morning, the sun was out, or we were sitting in the kitchen, and then the next memory is seeing him in the open casket.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Yeah, yeah. Jarring.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

Yeah, I I struggled with anxiety and fear of death for a long time after that. And still too to this day, but it's something that I've been slowly working on accepting the finite of life.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Okay, man. Okay. You talked about you and Zach. He was an older brother. Can you explain the unique dynamic of Zach with your family specifically? How was it?

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Yeah, so Zach was always just fit right in. But he brought the crazy out of mom and he brought the funny out of dad. And the three of them were you would have thought he was mom's nephew as much as he was dad's blood theft. And obviously always had a real close relationship with us. But when your dad died, moved out, and it was just I don't know if it was when he was living at home or when he was in college, but he started to go on trips with us and really became an integral part of our family. It was just cool. At that age, not really close to your sister yet. And your sister are still basically enemies. You guys were always fighting, always gickering. And it was great to have a buddy like that that not only was there, but he bridged that gap and made it fun between the three of us. There was no sister-brother quarreling. Everything was just fun and happy, and the guy couldn't have a bad day, especially pre-deployment, Zach. That level of energy and that level of just happiness is something that you look on now with envy. I want to bobby that or at least have some level of that whimsical.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

I do think that was Zach at his best. Ethan's mom would make Jillian Michaels jealous of her triceps. Works three full-time jobs. She could sometimes be very no-nonsense, especially her being Jewish and being raised by a mom that survived World War II, right? Yeah, alcoholic.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Dad was an alcoholic on levels of family turmoil. And my grandma was probably not the most motherly of moms and was probably your typical mom of the 50s and 60s, where they were pretty much checking out half the time. But they they definitely had to share a really rough old life and losing their brother when he was in his 20s. I think she took a lot of that into character.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

I loved her and Zach's relationship because most people can be intimidated by your mom. The ha the entryway to your house, you used to have to. I think you probably have it on a button or some tech thing now. Somebody'd have to jump out to unlock the gate, right? I remember hearing about Zach moving your mom, and she's get out of my truck, unlock it. And then your mom dying and laughing. But what's funnier was the next day is your mom stuck her booty out the window.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

And it's just like as the son of that individual at the time, it's Jesus. The level of childness uh wonder between the three of them. I wanted to get up at Zach's funeral and Peter tells stories. And at the time I just didn't have the heart or even the confidence. But there's mom and Zach's play from the G. And we got dad's one of the best stories was our truck. It has tow mirrors, which for anyone who doesn't understand, toe mirrors are side mirrors, but they're bigger and wider and extend out so you can see around you when you're pulling a trail. They're about chest to head height. And so dad liked to play a joke, and to this day, I think he still does it, where he'll play around with you when you're getting back in the car. He'll lock the doors, it'll drive forward and make you kind of stop and get in the car, like all dads do. Our driveway is very long, very straight, gravel, and Zach gets out, gets the door. Dad drives up. I'm sitting in the middle seat. Dad parks. Zach closes the gate and comes walk around the passage side to get in, and dad does his little thing. Stop, go, stop, go. And then Zach Ding Zach just antagonizes him. And so dad says, okay, and he just keeps driving. And at one point, I think they're going 20 mile an hour. However, the individual can run at full speed. And Zach's sprinting to my right, keeping up with us, looking the bird into the window, and dad says, Oh, okay, and slams on the brakes. And next thing Zach is just not there. He just gets clotheslined by the toe. Just laid flat out. And what does he do? He just gets up and says, You asshole. And then we go off and we do whatever we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Either one of those attention seekers was gonna back down. No one else can.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

And then go even further. Actually, I almost forgot about this until now. He actually went on a fishing trip or two with me and Dad. And we're sitting there at a restaurant table, this family establishment, and they're playing around with stuff, squirting things. And I think you have to do it. And Zach squirted some tartar sauce or something out of lightly. And then of course, Roger, who's not to be one up, says, okay, and just squeeze the whole thing. And just I know this is a family podcast, but let's just got a face full of tartar sauce.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

And you just wanted to sink down and away and let those two deal with the servers.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

No, I'm laughing my ass off. But I'm also I think I'm gonna act like I'm not part of this while still laughing. Oh man, the two of them were just two Ps in their dumb ash pot, I should have.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Oh man. Okay. Oh, good stories. You said the word pre-deployment, Zach. How did you notice? Okay, so you went to Iraq in 2009 and Afghanistan. At what parts during that did you see him, or what about his behavior? Why did you use those words?

SPEAKER_02 13:17

I don't know if there was too much to the anger. It was just when somebody comes back or something like that, it doesn't matter if they have PTSD or not. They're just a different person. And you can just see like looking at a president. Look at Obama when he got to office and he left. Every president starts to finish. They're aged, both mentally and physically. But Zach did let that slow him down. He was still funny, fun-loving Zach. But especially after the second appointment, you did notice the alcohol low was a lot higher. He didn't need as much, or even wasn't as much of a drinker in the young days. He still was a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

But when he's going on your family vacation to Aruba, he's 18 and you're what's by my own.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Right, or sleeping a beer or two, whatever, it's fine. But when he would come visit with dad, they would just get, I wouldn't say obliterated, but they'd be drinking quite a bit and you could hear the words search slur. He was still having fun and enjoying life, but you could the time you didn't notice it because I wasn't old enough or in tune enough or was still on autopilot, if you will. But looking back on a nap, the masking got helping with it was I want to be here, I want to be happy, I want to have fun, and I want to be thinking about this. And the alcohol is what allowed him to do that.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

I think a lot, even more than you would know, of families are made up like ours, where it's uncomfortable to talk real things. You know, we don't see each other enough. We were geographically separated. So when you see each other, you just want the highlight real. I do think Steven our uncle, who is a wonderful physician, would say Zach's drinking because Zach never felt like it was a safe place. It gave him he wanted to talk about the hard times, but he never thought the invitation was open. And that was a fault on Zach. But I guess none of us also would be, hey, clearly you went through some shit. Let me know, and I can take it.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

I think it's also partly on us as individuals. Now, no, Steve, I don't know because he's a psychiatrist, he knows more about this than we do. But one thing I've learned about bringing up the hard things and hard conversations in any relationship is we always want to wait for the right time. But if you wait for the right time, it's just gonna be the wrong time. There's no problem.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

I think that's wonderful that you said that there is never a hundred percent the right time. If it is on your brain, if it is on your heart, ask the hard question. Just do it.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

There's never a right time, but there is always a wrong time. And the wrong time may be too late, or it may be when they bring up the problem. Like it may be if it's a partnership and they bring up the problem, that's definitely the wrong time for you to bring up your thing. But if you're waiting for the right time, it's oh, things are good. Zach's here, he's having fun, he's happy. I know life must be tough right now. I don't want to bring it up. But if you truly love and care about somebody, you need to bring it up and not let it fester, not let it build a resentment, not let it go too long and checked, because then we end up in the situation where we're in.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Yeah, man. Good job, Ethan. I want what do you think are the key takeaways that you've learned from loss?

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Some of the key things that I've learned, especially from loss, like with Zach, is not the cliche ones, but the obvious ones, right? Like knock out when you want to speak up to somebody when you want to call somebody. But it's I listened to your recent podcast, the one it was episode 11, where she's talking about loss as well. Well, their father took his life at PTSD.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

And was talking about what you do with yourself in the face of loss. And that's what I've learned. What I've learned is who I am in the face of loss and how I handle it. And I think we, you know, everybody handles it differently. I pushed it down. I it got to me a little bit here and there. Well, definitely got to me a lot, but I just like our family and learn with loss. We don't talk about it, we don't dwell on it, it happened, it sucks.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Get back to work.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Get back to work and get used to it. And so when I started to stop and actually think about it and let the emotions come out and feel how much you feel like you let someone down and the the family network you let them down and things like that, you start to look at what can I do differently moving forward. Not what can I change, what couldn't I have changed, but what can I do now based on what I know. And that's what I've been really trying to do is relationships, right? Being present, connecting, trying to go beyond the circus, but also trying to find purpose. And that's been the biggest thing in honoring somebody in their loss.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Yeah. A person may pass, but their legacy is still very much part of what I also think something you and I share in common. We were both obsessed with our Papa, our dad's dad, and he passed in 2020. Having Alzheimer's during COVID was awful. But I also think of the way you talk about finding purpose is very Papa too, don't you think?

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Yeah, it's funny people mentioned that because I remember and I kicked myself for it a lot. And this is one of the things I tried to learn from is just make that call and ask that person how they're doing. Because I remember Papa's funeral we were at the after party or after party, Jesus. The after funeral thing, which by the way, another funeral where I wanted to step up after my story, but I didn't.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Um the theme here is next time you're at a funeral and there's a voice in your head, get up. That's your challenge I'm hearing right now.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Or anytime there is, it's just do it. It's don't sit, don't wait for the right opportunity. It's the same with bringing up conflict, it just don't wait to do it, don't wait for the invitation, don't wait for the opening.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Be decisive.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Yes. And but I remember the phone getting passed around and it's Zach on Jay style. And he is just, I mean, looking back now, how did I not think I need to call him ASAP? He was absolutely destroyed. His face was red, he was crying, he was just after your dad passed, and with the whole thing with your mom, Papa was his his surrogate. You know, Papa was his.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

I always tell people it's I'm the least favorite sibling. I joke about it. I'm sure there's people out there that I'm their favorite. It's the most independent. It's not like but even Grandma Nata will say that. She's like, I think Zach and her Trevor are Papa's favorites. I was like, what am I, liver? You know.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

But um just the most independent. You didn't need people as much. Zach needed that. Zach was definitely was somebody that really graved that camaraderie and closeness with people. But also you left home earlier, right? And Zach was just there. It was just him. So he didn't have you. So that was, I think he had more of a need growing up for Papa than you did.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Okay. You said it a couple times. So if I was listening, do you you have said let down and guilt a couple times? Is this because we are in the anniversary phase? Are you dealing with this? Or how are you letting go of guilt? You know, my brother, your cousin, was stubborn. If you had called every day, who thought he would want to talk to you?

SPEAKER_02 19:41

No, I know you can't look back and kick yourself and think it would have gone differently. But no, it seems like every amount of time that passes, new every pops up. And it's guilt and the letdown, it was just the breakdown of communication with our family, with my own nuclear family alone. I didn't know anything that was going on. And apparently mom knew things and dad knew things, and nobody once told me, or nobody wants set us down, nobody wants sacked out of the family and said, Hey guys, here's what's going on. I had no clue. And that's not going to put any blame on anybody else because I could have picked up the phone and called them myself or texted and checked in. But to give you an idea of the level of communication our family has, I'm at the gym one day, it's 4 p.m. I get a text from my mom. This is recently, like a month ago, but an x-ray of what can only be described as a head that went through a nuclear explosion. And she, it's just one text behind it, shattered, shot off horse, shattered head at the at the hospital, or took ambulance ride at the hospital, dad's here.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

And I'm like, You wanted a trigger warning before you opened up a tech mouth?

SPEAKER_02 20:38

It's just like not even not a phone call, not a heads up. I mean, I'll give you it. At the hospital all day. And he didn't once think maybe on the way to the hospital, an hour and a half away, to see mom. Maybe I should let the kids know, or Ethan, he's the only one that doesn't know what's going on. Maybe I sent a text. Hey, by the way, mom's okay about going to the hospital.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

If it makes you feel better, it is our whole family because our cousin Wyoming Julia texts me and said, Have you heard from Roger today? And I was like, my catastrophic thinking of who died. Everyone telling me, but even though they're like, that's how she worded a text. Like, nothing.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

And she probably knew before I knew. That's just part of the course for a family. And it's one of those things where you can't hold any animosity or any you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

You have to laugh up, you have to find humor.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

But one thing that I could do to be true to myself is actually speak that truth and say we need better communication. That's a level for family therapy.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yep. Okay. We need to go back to finding meaning and your career direction purpose. Ethan has the most one of the most unfortunate birthdays in America. Can you tell our audience when your birthday is?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

My birthday is on September 11th.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Okay. A baby boomer was talking derogatorily to me in a fantasy football chat. And I said, there's huge differences in us as millennials, right? Because I was in 12th grade, so Zach and 10th, when 9 11 happened, and the vibe in high school was, oh my gosh, we're going to war. Or we're gonna make this right. Or that's my recollection of it now, seeing Zach entering the military and how everything played out was this call to action. Where were you when the towers fell? And can you tell us what you remember?

SPEAKER_02 22:14

I was sixth grade in Mrs. Murray's literature class, Northwestern. I remember before I even hear about it, people just start getting pulled out of class left and right. And it's there's confusion and this question, what's going on? And then they start talking about the World Trade Center was hit. And it was in sixth grade. I didn't know what the World Trade Center was. Or I didn't even know there were two towers. I thought it was like a big trade center, it's like a convention center. I I had no concept of what it was. And but the gravity growing by the minute. And it was crazy. I remember coming home, I was on the bus, being a selfish kid at the same time, was, oh, I don't get to get pulled out of school because my parents saw work. But I remember my yeah, the bus drops me off of the driveway. And at the time, our next door neighbors they had horses as well. And they were in their school about early. And the neighbor girl, of course, is my age, she would sometimes pick me up at the end because the driveway was right on their fence line. And very long walk. So she'd ride her horse up. And the whole bus must have thought I was the biggest redneck in the world. I hop a fence and hop on the back of a horse, some girl, and just ride off it.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Right off into the sunset.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

But she rides me back and we're talking about it. I remember because I had no idea what it was. I get older and I turn the news on, and it was just like, oh, oh wow. This is back. And then it was for the next weeks and months, it was people with stories, people of oh, my uncle was supposed to be here, or my mom was supposed to work that day, or that was all the stories of the people that either were there or were supposed to be there, and everyone tying their personal lives, not tying them into it, but relating it, right? It's very interesting because that call to action, being in sixth grade in middle, I never got that notion ever. Because sixth, seventh, eighth grade, your immediate response is not, we're gonna go to war. It's what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

I was having this same conversation. It was me and a couple friends, and there was one girl in the group talking with us, and she was, I think, 25 or however old she is. She was born that we are and recounting where we were, and she was just taken aback. She was this was a part of the rescue group, the rescue dog situation, and and she was couldn't understand, she was so taken aback and so shocked that this entire group of people could remember exactly where they were on the same exact day.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Uh, it was interesting because you never really think about you learn about this in school, but do you remember has she had any in the last 25 years of those moments in her life? For instance, Columbine all of a sudden happened when I was in high school and I lived in Colorado, so I can tell you that date.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

I think the New Town's the biggest worst school shooting if we're going down that route. But uh never thought that.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Okay. My husband, he always wants to know what people do for a living, and it drives me nuts because there's so much more to a person than what he does. But when I explain what you do for a living, did you watch a Friends Ever? You're like Chandler Bing. I can't explain what you do. I know you work something in the tech space.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

Every time I explain my job, people that are not in the tech space, they're like, I don't, what do you do again?

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Do you want to get into your whole trying to find purpose? You're not trying to blow up your life and start a new career. You are trying to incorporate that.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Listen, that crossed my mind for a solid three or four months of I was looking at bouncing the notions around of entire career changes in an effort to try to find purpose. And it all started from uh I met somebody who had found real purpose in their job. I was in healthcare space that was obviously at a very uh intrinsic value of providing for people and helping them. I had gone to a space or a point in life with my job where I love what I do and I'm really good at it. But comparison is the peak of joy. And you see so much purpose in their position and their job and their career, it really makes you look back and reflect on your own. And so I spent quite a few months really exploring all different avenues. I was even talking to mom about vet school. You know, love obviously love animals and would find value in that. I could never do healthcare, I could never work on people, but animals like a that they do large animal vet would be really interesting. And I feel like that would be a very fulfilling career. But then I got to talking to a former colleague and former boss and mentor, and not too much older than me. She's probably in her early to mid 40s, but we're talking about the purpose in this job. And she's like, I think you millennials have this feeling like you have to have purpose in your job. And she said something profound to me, she's like, You don't have to have purpose in your job. You can find purpose in life, it doesn't have to be your job.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

And that's when I was damn, you're right. That's when I started exploring where I wanted to be of value because what is purpose? People always try to find purpose, so they never stop and ask themselves, what is purpose? And I think you're never gonna find true purpose. I think that's the age-old question of our existence. That's why religion, in my opinion, is what it is, because we don't know why we're here and where we come from, beyond evolution or whatever you want to call spirituality. But the purpose of life is an ever-evolving, ever-elusive truth. But what we can relate to purpose being value and being of service. I think being of service is the biggest form of purpose. And that got me to thinking about Zach. And on stage, I want to be of value, I don't want to be of service, and I want to do something for them. And I think a lot of people are in a place of where do I start? Where do I begin? How do I get going?

SPEAKER_01 27:29

When you brought up the caveat with being a civilian in a military space, you know you have value and you have unique experiences to bring to the situation, but those doors aren't going to swing open always.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Yeah, it was at that point. So I started with a volunteer. I looked up a couple different volunteer orgs. I went to a VA here and there and I passed out coffee or handout snacks or did your typical volunteer stuff. But I remember coming back from them and thinking, yeah, it was nice that I did that, but I really didn't benefit their lives. They were like, Oh, that's thank you for a free cup of coffee. I wasn't expecting it, but that's nice. It was little things, but in my opinion, I didn't feel like I was truly making a difference.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

And truly providing value. Their day would not have been any different had they not gotten a bag of crackers.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

I get it.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

I got to looking and I realized to provide more one-on-one sport. I remember being in the tech space in the early days and meeting veterans in the tech space that were so successful because there was a massive side of tech in the federal space, as well as just sales in general. And I realized I was like, all these veterans coming out of the military, they go straight into what they know law enforcement, firefighting, direct transferable jobs, or security. Correct. But they don't realize there was a massive potential for them in the corporate space, especially technology and selling into the Fed space, but also their level of dedication, regimen, and just drive creates an amazing salesperson. I got to Googling and looked around and I found a company or an organization called ACP or American Corporate Partners. What they do is provide mentorship to service members, veterans, and their spouses who are looking to leave the service and enter into a new world of civilian life in potentially corporate sectors. And so it doesn't have to be that though, really just service members and their family and their spouses that are looking for guidance and mentorship, anything of leaving the military and put a profile together and what we're good at, blah, blah, blah. And they find you a match. And they found me one guy, I said, so desperate, I was waiting so long to find somebody to mentor. And I had to say, listen, I can't provide the value to this person. They're on the side, they want to do a lot of stuff on the engineering, and what they want to do is well beyond my scope of understanding in the tech space. I would not be able to provide the value that I'd like to. So I had to say no to that. And then later on, they found me a guy. His name's Devin. He's an amazing kid. He's 29. He's been in the Marines for 11 years, just got out a month ago, and he wants to get into the tech space in the corporate world.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

What a weird coincidence that your mentee has the same name as your sister.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

With an I, not an O, though.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Okay. Still.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Okay, keep going.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

It's been amazing. It was funny when I was first calls. I'm asking him all these questions and trying to make sure I can give what I want to give. And he flips the script and says, Well, what do you want out of this? What can I do for you? Wow.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

I don't want this to be an I take and I'll it's a symbiotic relationship.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

And honestly, Devin, you letting me do this for you is what I'm getting in return. I want to feel like I'm helping somebody.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Does he know your backstory, or would that not be a problem?

SPEAKER_02 30:28

I I definitely let him know what brought me into it because you want to have a personal relationship as well as a professional one. A mentor is not a boss, it's confident, it's a friend, it's a trusted person.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Planet has no timeline. Ten years from now, he wants to consider a different path. You are you guys can trade info.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

And the only other thing that I maybe could be getting a return in is just my own personal growth and development. I'm in a leadership position for the first time, and I intend to go further into leadership, but a mentorship is something that is going to help me learn how to be a better leader and a better person just in general around working with individuals. But so it's been great. You have conversations and you don't search for validation. I think the second you start to do that, you're gonna hear it for the wrong reasons, but then it's about your ego, not that Yeah, and but when you do get those moments that they're man, they feel they feel amazing. And we were having a call one time and he was talking to me about this this idea he has of starting a company, and I was telling him all these things and giving all these and I wasn't even intentionally trying to be good at it. I was just telling him the God's honest truth and what I know and what I've learned. He stopped for a pause and he was, man, you know you're really good at this shit, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:38

And I'm aww. I was like, I mean no man, I had no idea. I'm just being myself.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

I was like, I still feel like with imposter syndrome, I don't feel like really being that good about it. So it was that was a really amazing moment.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

The warm, fuzzy stuff in your chest feeling. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

It's been an amazing journey so far.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

I'm glad whoever gave you that advice, don't blow up your life. You can find purpose in other ways.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Yeah, there is something against starting out. My mom's the brother she lost, his wife, she's still in our family, you know, Lynn. She went back to med school, 42.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Good for her. Um, what you're doing is in essence a sort of suicide prevention. Have you thought of it that way? Because can I tell you hey, we all know how what'd you say for myself or for somebody else? For somebody else, for the greater good of humanity, because transitioning out of the military, whether on your dorms or not, say people amputees, injuries, this major disruptor, and then you couple it with anything else, substance abuse, marriage, it is devastating. And especially when people put their whole identity in something, which that's why we do have an effective military, because everybody buys in. You know, the heroes will die for their neighbor away. We, if we haven't really set the intentional time, which our society doesn't, we most of us go, go, go, have a job, and you take you disrupt what you think you are, and you don't stand on anything. Some of them think there is no avenue next. It takes people that are well adjusted, even are like by year five into retirement to get their sea legs. Not everybody has the same experience, but it is. You are doing suicide prevention because a lot of people, even you agreeing to talk to me on this podcast, I bet somebody's wow, I never thought you could go from being a Marine to working in the tech space. I always thought I had to go these other routes. So if you haven't thought about it, that's what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

I haven't, but I appreciate relief. I mean, that makes me feel even better about what I'm doing because I never thought of it that way.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

You're giving people hope that might not have it, or we don't know what they're holding on to, what belief system is limiting them. And even by you turning down that one that wasn't the right fit, you did the better service, the selfless thing. You said, I hear all you're offering, and I'm not going to give you what you need. It's just incredible. Look at you.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Look at you. Okay. So you talked about this girl that was born in 2001. Can't even imagine that. Oh, yep. Me having a baby as a junior in high school. Go on.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Hey, yeah, no, that's the rescue group that we were working with. And so that's where that conversation started with that group of people. But uh, no, it all started with I got back from my shark dive trip and I'd been well missed where it was just take action, right? Don't wait for the right time. You know, our family we grew up with three to four dogs in a given moment. I kept saying, I don't want a dog while I have an apartment. It's not fair to the dog, blah, blah, blah. And at the end of the day, it was just me being lazy. So I decided stop waiting. Just get a dog. But you don't have to get a dog. Find a way to provide value to a dog without adopting it. That's what I found out about the weekend warrior program, which is essentially you can go get a dog for the weekend and just give them a reprieve from the shelter. By looking further into that, I found a group that posts dogs that are on the euthanasia list because of time where they just need somebody to save them for the night, for the day while they find a better home or long-term solution so they don't get euthanized. I found a dog. She was the last one on euthanasium list, and I went there to get her, and I got a message on the way. She said a girl's like, Good news Bible is, you know, tears aren't available, but that's because she got adopted. So I get there, I was show me your oldest dogs. Show me the seniors, show me the ones that don't get looked at, or the ones that don't have the best chance for adoption. She walks me around. I see my dog I have now, I see him first, and I was like, okay, he's a 70-pound new pit mix, and it's just a lover boy. And then went and looked at a couple shepherds, which coming off of my ex time had a shepherd. So I'll I was used to shepherds, I love them, and I was like, oh, this guy's name's Duke, 11 years old, he's just adorable. But I was like, you know what? I'll come back, I'll get Spoon out, and I'll find him a home, and then I'll come back and I'll get Duke next. So I went back to the pit. He's a they said he was eight years old. His name's Spoon.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

And he's just an absolute lover boy. That weekend turned into a long-term foster. I was like, you know what? I'm gonna find homes for senior dogs because they're the ones that don't get adopted. There's a lot of people out there that want a dog but don't get a dog because they don't want to deal with the puppy or the racing ass or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Can I give you a similarity around Christmas time, the wish tree at school? Everyone always picks the babies, the toddlers. You know what gets picked last? The teenagers that just want books or a pair of shoes.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

It's heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

That long-term foster, everybody kept saying you need to keep this dog. He's he looks at you, lets you huggle the moon. He's your dog, he's your dog. And I said, I'm not gonna adopt a dog until I have a house. But anyways, I adopted him, have the house. But when I first started fostering him, the gym I go to, it's a big gym, but it's also a very community-driven gym. And all of us that go at the same time know each other. And so when some of the girls at the gym found out I fostered a dog, but not just a dog, but fostered a pit bull, I walk in, they're like, You come here. So we started talking about fosters, and they told me how they had been very, very much involved in the foster world up until the last year. And they were, yeah, we just got so burnt out, we don't really know what we're doing, or we just kind of lost direction. It was just all over the place. I said, I do events, I work half the time, and I've done events outside of look. Let's do an event, let's do a foster event. And so we slapped an event together within a week, raised like butter dollars, got a couple dogs potentially adopted, and wow. Then we decided let's make this a real thing. We organized rescue MRP. We've since done two events, and we've raised over probably close to$1,200. And I think so far we've gotten at least five dogs adopted. Oh my gosh, incredible. We decided we're not a rescue, and that's why I wish you name every name, but we don't actually have the dogs. We're basically a platform. We create the event as an exposure and a place for dogs to be seen, and then contact fosters and give them an opportunity to come out, bring their dog, and maybe get them adopted, bring awareness to the weekend warrior program that nobody knows about, as well as raise their own money to potentially use for any foster situations that come up. That's been extremely rewarding, and it's all been because of that damn dog I adopted.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

It's very incredible holding space to make connections possible.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

I don't know how I would do it because it's a big bit of an undertaking, but I wanted to create an organization where I'd like to match fosters with veterans. Not necessarily not training service dogs to be service dogs, basically having veterans sign on, working with the shelter, and basically bringing the veterans to the shelter and allowing them to pick a dog that they'd like to work with for the next week or two or maybe three weeks, and then partway with the dog trainer, and then running each veteran and their paired foster dog through the training for one to three weeks, however long it is. And then at the end of that training period, if the veteran jokes gets a good fit, they can adopt the dog, it's a win. If they don't, the dog goes back to the shelter, but now they have a much more desirable adoption possibility because they've been trained and socialized and have all these notes and things.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

And what's stopping you from doing this?

SPEAKER_02 38:44

Just I guess a lack of trust in myself to do it without knowing what I'm doing. It's one of those things you have to take the first step. Yeah, and if you have but you have to get a lot of things lined up before you I can't just find one veteran and say, all right, come with me to the shelter. Let's find you a dog and then run you through some training. You kind of have to get a class.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

I'm in a leadership program right now that's families of the fallen and veterans. So most of them are veterans, but there's seven of us that are family of the fallen. One veteran with a service dog, and it is a pit bull. And that dog's name is Pua, and he's the sweetest thing. And I was this is a whole rebrand for this breed.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

You know, they're called a nanny dog, and you know why they're called the nanny dog? Because they were actually bred, designated to be nannies for children. That's why they're so loving and so affectionate. And that's why they're protective. Is because they were actually intended to be family dogs to protect the children.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

So the dog, did the dog force you to buy a house finally? Waiting for the perfect one?

SPEAKER_02 39:38

We can get into it. Adopting that dog was a real life lesson in the art of detachment.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

And removing your grip on the end result and letting life unfold and what's meant for you and what will be yours will come. I have a close friend who's very religious, and I'm not, but I'm becoming much more spiritual. In my opinion, God and the universe are one of the same. But once I stopped, the dog was put in front of me, and that was God with the universe saying, This dog's meant for you, right? And I just kept saying, No, I was so fixated on getting your outcome. On getting a house before I got a dog. I was so fixated on homing other dogs, and I was fixating all these external things of why I couldn't keep what was in front of me right now. And when I removed those things, or removed my grip on that and said, you know what? This dog is meant to be, and I'm gonna adopt him, I'll be able to foster and home older dogs down the road. Because I've been looking for a house for over two and a half years. And I said, whenever that happens, if it ever happens, then I'll be able to do this. But for now, the right now, the present, but what's in front of me is this dog. And I adopted him, and I am not joking, within three to five days, this house went up on the market, and I was under contract within two, three days after that.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

Chills.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

It was the most blatant and obvious in your face example of the universe.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

You're not in control here.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

You're not in control, and the universe is, and you have a level of control in your life and you have free will, but what it is meant to be truly is meant to be, I think. And that's that was this example that was just thrown in my face.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Man, okay, cool. Thanks for agreeing to do this today.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Yeah, I was weirdly nervous about it, but also was excited for it. I had a person who asked me before to be on their podcast. I don't even know why they wanted me, but this is the first time I was I actually feel like I can you had a very universal message. As long as this message or this experience can give somebody a a kick or an idea, all we can do is hope that what we're doing with our own life can have a positive effect on another.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

Okay, my last thing, speak to cousins out there. There are people that lose cousins. So if someone is going through what you went through, what advice would you say?

SPEAKER_02 41:53

If you're going through loss, if you're going through loss of a cousin, those relationships they vary between families. Some cousins are very distant, some cousins are very close. The relationships are always different. But I think if you're going through immediate loss, I don't know if this is the right thing, but for you being the sibling of the loss, reaching out to that if that cousin had zippers, right? And reaching out just being there and being of service to that family. One of the things I learned was when somebody's going through something, last thing you can ever do is say, let me know if you need anything. Or just let me know. It's one of those things that really resonated because just do it. Send an Ober Eats gift card, get a cleaning service for them, show up to their house, whatever. Just do something that you think will help them or make their life easier in one way. But asking when you're going through the shit, the last thing you can think about is what you need from somebody else. You don't even know what you need from yourself right now. That's one thing that I would say. And then the other being looking at the loss and looking at what can you do moving forward. If that loss happened suddenly and you feel you weren't there enough, focus on being present. If that loss happened because of suicide or because of mental health, focus on your mental health. Make sure your mental health is there. And then work on the mental health of those around you and then those affected by it. That loss has left a hole in your heart. Look at filling that hole. Not necessarily masking it or covering it up. Obviously, subtitles distraction is definitely needed in these cases, but what can you do to patch it? What can you do to honor that person while honoring yourself and repairing the break that came from it? Live your life in honor of that's one of those things that I really try to remember. I'm going in tomorrow for my Zach tattoo. You know, I was talking to my therapist. I've been wanting this tattoo for him for God knows how long. And he said, When's the anniversary? And I said, May 8th. And he goes, Set the appointment for that day and get it that day. That's your next way to honor him. And I actually got in another tattoo because thanks to you and your podcast and the 22 a day. She mentioned how some people have even gotten the tattooed, and I was like, man, I've got trouble. Shift to other tattoos I want to get. What's putting 22 on? I'll be getting my exact tattoo, but I'll probably get 22 throws somewhere too.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

That was Ethan Brown. If you like what you heard, please leave us a five-star review. In this episode, we uncovered that despite loss, what a person means to us still lives on in how we show up for ourselves and in the world. Most notably, being of service is not one defined profession. It's fluid, caring for neglected dogs or seeking out continuing ed and mentorship opportunities. It means the world to me that you click Sparking the Torch pod. Our stories are the spark. We can only hope they rise to a flame and set this community ablaze. Be sure to follow us on the FinalSaluteLLC.com. Have a great day.