Marjorie Mann: Simplifying Compliance and Empowering Participation in Retirement Plans

What if helping your employees achieve true retirement security came down to communication, clarity, and the courage to simplify? In this episode of The Gap, Shannon Edwards sits down with Marjorie Mann, Senior Counsel at NextEra Energy and current President of the American Retirement Association, for a candid conversation about what’s really working—and what still needs fixing—in America’s private retirement system. With decades of hands-on experience guiding one of the nation’s largest employers through complex plan design, compliance, and fiduciary oversight, Marjorie brings a unique, sponsor-side perspective that every advisor, benefits manager, and business owner can learn from.

If you’ve ever wondered how leading employers are navigating SECURE 2.0, boosting participation, and keeping employees engaged in their financial future, this episode will give you a front-row view. You’ll walk away with a deeper understanding of how policy meets practice—and what steps you can take to help your organization close the retirement savings gap once and for all. Because when employers lead with clarity and purpose, everyone wins.

In this episode, Shannon and Marjorie Mann discuss: 

• Evolving responsibilities of employers in strengthening retirement readiness
• Communication challenges in engaging diverse employee populations
• Legislative and regulatory changes shaping plan design and administration
• Collaboration across the retirement industry to drive education and innovation

Key Takeaways:

• Implementing automatic enrollment and simplified investment options, such as target-date funds, can significantly increase participation and improve long-term retirement outcomes for employees.
• Clear, consistent, and targeted communication across different employee demographics helps build trust, increase plan engagement, and prevent confusion about benefits.
• Reducing legislative and regulatory complexity is essential to encourage more small and midsize employers to adopt and maintain retirement plans.
• Collaboration between plan sponsors, advisors, and industry associations fosters shared learning, stronger advocacy, and better tools to close both the coverage and savings gaps. 

"Communication is what’s really important; if you become a trusted voice with employees, that goes a long way toward helping them recognize the opportunities that they have." — Marjorie Mann

Connect with Marjorie Mann:  

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marjorie-mann-26803b1/

Connect with Sh

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:44

By sharing in the idea public to help holistic hand in America helmet and retirement savings and clearment. By doing so, we can improve the life of working American. Each month we talk with industry leaders who are helping to strike in the private retirement system through their work, their volunteer service and their advocacy. Today I'm potentially excited to introduce a guest who comes to the retirement ecosystem from a different thing and point in most of our prior advocates. Instead of talking to a consultant service provider or policy expert, we're going to straight to the planned volunteer side. We'll hear from someone at the helm of a major employer's retirement strategy, someone who lives and breathe the employer experience every day. And thrilled to welcome Marjorie Mann, senior council in an external energy company. She brings her deep expertise to managing legal compliance, governance, and structural issues around the company's employee benefit. Over her career, she's been deeply involved in the broader retirement industry, most notably serving as plant president of the plant center council of America, and now serving as president of the American Retirement Association. In those leadership roles, Marjorie is helping to bridge the divide between employer interest and the real world challenges employees face in accumulating sufficient resources for retirement. She is positioned to speak not just about policies and regulations, but about how they play out on the ground, what works, what doesn't, and where the opportunities lie. Marjorie has dedicated her career to working with employee benefit plans. She's a powerful voice for plan sponsors, a passionate advocate for retirement readiness, and a respected leader in our industry. Thank you for being here, Marjorie, and for doing the kind of work that helps people move closer to retirement security.

SPEAKER_04 2:34

Thank you so much, Shannon. It's a pleasure to be here with you.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Well, I always love to start with the story behind the title because every career in this industry seems to have a moment that sparks something deeper. So tell us what path led you into employee benefit space and how did that involve into your current role?

SPEAKER_04 2:53

That's something that I really enjoy talking about because I feel that I was inspired by other people who went before me. And so I hope that my path to where I am now could be inspiring for others. I did not go immediately to law school from college. When I was a teenager, I worked in my dad's firm as a filing clerk. And uh he had an investment company selling mutual funds and he managed a sales staff. And so when I did filing, I felt like I was learning a lot because I read everything. And you know, you do learn quite a bit, especially at that age. I then went to college and I worked after school. I lived at home. I was a commuter. And then when I graduated, I had various jobs. The first one was as a legal assistant at a law firm doing trust and estate administration. And some of those trusts were employee benefit trusts. And that was how I got interested in uh benefit plans. The law firm did summary plan descriptions, and so I was one of the test cases to read it and see if I could understand it. And if I could, then they did a good job. And if I couldn't, they had to go back to the drawing board because, as you know, summary plan descriptions have to be in plain English so that everyone who's uh participant in the plan can understand how the plan operates. So after that, I had uh various positions. I was a 401k administrator at a large uh Fortune 100 company. Uh then I was a trust officer at a Japanese bank doing 401 trust management.

unknown 4:47

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_04 4:48

And from there, I met a lawyer there who used to advise the staff about new 401k regulations. And they were particularly interested in separate line of business for testing purposes because it was uh a lot of Japanese clients. They didn't want to keep all of their worldwide employees in their testing for their American benefit plans. So, you know, kind of arrogantly, I think I felt as though the lawyer that we had uh wasn't doing that great of a job of explaining what the regulations were to us on the staff. And I said, I could do a better job than that. So I um got motivated to go to law school at night. And I it was hard, but I got through it and I worked really, really hard. And after that, I was very lucky to get a job in a mid-sized law firm in New Jersey, Morristown, New Jersey, where I got really terrific experience on some very large clients. And my career just has been so fulfilling in the sense that I got to see so many different areas of the practice. I will say though, as a note, that I was wrong to be so critical of the attorney who I thank him very much for motivating me. However, once I got to that position, I saw it's not that easy to explain these complicated IRS regulations to uh people who are not attorneys. It's very complicated to explain them to attorneys too. It's not that attorneys are smarter than the other people. In fact, sometimes it's the opposite. But it really was that was a motivating factor, but it I turn out to be wrong about that.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

I know I have that problem when I'm trying to explain things even to my clients, right? Because I will want to talk in our language versus, and it is, it's complicated. You know, you and I have a lot in common because I started out in my dad's accounting firm too. And that's how I ended up here totally by accident, because we landed a very large 401k plan when I started interning there in college, and that became my full-time job working on a pooled, balanced forward, participant-directed 401k plan that we did quarterly valuations for. So that's how I ended up here.

SPEAKER_04 7:12

And it's really these stories are great because I think they teach people that you don't have to have an absolute destination in mind. You have to feel what you're good at, feel what you're interested in, and let the opportunities take you on the road to where you're going to go. And that's just been so clear to me when I look back at what I've done. And I think it's important for other people now too, because people there's somewhat of a generational divide. And I think that a lot of young people are feeling like maybe they don't have the opportunities that they wish they had. And this comes very, this impacts the retirement situation too, which I know we're going to get into that more in a moment. But my my point is that if you are open to the opportunities that present themselves and don't have an expectation of where you're going to end up, then your interests will reveal themselves to you.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yes, you're right. And what's funny to me is so many of us end up in this industry by accident. Yeah. But all of us, once we get here, seem to develop this incredible passion for it. And it's so rewarding too to mean we really actually do make a difference in people's lives. And that's it's such a rewarding feeling that keeps us all coming back, right? So it really feeds our passion for this. So exactly, absolutely right. Were there any defining moments or mentors early in your career that helped shape your passion for employee benefits and plan governance?

SPEAKER_04 8:48

One of them was the attorney that I mentioned, and I have great respect for him looking back. But another person that really motivated me was Phyllis Borzi, believe it or not. Before Phyllis was assistant secretary there, she was a senior lawyer at a top law firm in uh DC. I'm sure she had other senior roles as well, but this was when I had met her. And so she was speaking at a conference, and she was just so intelligent and so well-rounded and so down to earth, yet mastering all of this, you know, very high-level technical stuff to be able to speak to the conference really so articulately that I really felt like she was fantastic. And I spoke to her afterwards, and she said, Oh, great, you're gonna do well in law school, enjoy and you know, work hard. And later, just last year, actually, at the Orissa 50th anniversary celebration in DC, I was lucky enough to go to that with uh several of our American Retirement Association colleagues. And I happened to run into Phyllis walking in to the event, and I I walked up to her and I said, Oh, Phyllis, how are you? She had just hurt her foot. So she was hobbling around. But she said, I'm well. And I said, I just want to thank you because you really encouraged me. And I feel like I owe a lot to you for all the encouragement that you gave, not just to me, but to other people in the field too. So that was kind of nice.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

That's awesome. Yeah. And it's funny too, a lot of people that we meet don't know that they are motivating us, right? When we see them. So um, I try to remember that whenever we're at conferences and stuff, that we can have an impact on people that are newer to our industry and not even know it.

SPEAKER_04 10:38

So exactly. I fully agree with that. And you don't know one of our friends, Jeff Atcheson, who was the former president of ARA right before me. He inspired me so much. But one of the things he always says is that always be kind. You don't know what's going on with the person that you're speaking to. Yes. And I found that to be he has he has so many wonderful qualities, but that's one of them. I love Jeff.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

He's one of my favorites. I actually I had the pleasure of serving on the ARA board years and years ago before I went to the ASPA Leadership Council. And that's where I first met Jeff. And he's just an amazing human being. You're right.

SPEAKER_03 11:20

Yes, he is.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Yeah. So can you tell our audience what your current role at Nextera looks like? What all does it entail?

SPEAKER_04 11:28

Yeah. So as senior counsel, I work very closely with the administration people who administer the benefit plans, the full suite of benefits, including retirement, both 401k and uh we have a cash balance pension as well. So I am very involved with assisting them to try to figure out what plan provisions they would like to adopt when new legislation comes along. And so, you know, we explore the, as you said earlier, what works, what doesn't. You want to you want to help them to figure out what's going to be uh doable, what is going to be uh administratively successful, and what will motivate the participants to participate, particularly if saving through 401k, you have to be motivated. We have, as you have, implemented auto-enroll for we did that before you were required to do it. Of course, the new plans have to do it now. But that has been something that's been extremely successful. But we talked about what's the right level to do it at. We match up to, if you save up to 7%, they match 4.75%. So we wanted to get people there, but we didn't want to start the people there because that would be just too much of a, you know, biting off more than they could chew in a lot of cases. And you want to have people who remain enrolled and don't opt out. So that's the type of balancing that has to be done. Other things, new laws that have come along have been a little challenging in my view. For example, to have people be able to elect Roth for their employer match. That was something that uh my clients decided not to adopt, at least not at this moment, because that added a level of complexity when the numbers may not have really demonstrated that Roth was of all that much interest to the majority of the participants. So those are the things that you try to be open to to see you don't want to make changes and then go backwards and then you want to try to have a story that presents itself in a way that is easy to communicate to the participants because there's just a lot more uptake and a lot more interest in the plan if people understand it, understand why it works the way it does and what the opportunities are for them. One more thing I'll say. I know that some plans um think about whether they want to have hardship withdrawals. Our plan has hardship withdrawals, and we feel kind of lucky that we don't have too much abuse of it. But now that there is no uh mandatory suspension period, we do have one or two. Really, it's that small, but uh still one or two people who do take out a hardship withdrawal, you know, quite a lot. But of course, it's for the purpose that the hardship withdrawal is implemented for, which is that people, you know, sometimes they get into a financial strait, and we have one person who really is in uh financial straits with the rent. And so this is something that you absolutely want to balance to enable people to be able to take care of what they need to do, especially if they're economically insecure.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Yeah, definitely. And I know auto enrollment, as you mentioned, has been a game changer for a lot of my clients, especially clients who didn't want to be safe harbor, but they needed help passing their non-discrimination testing. So auto enrollment has been a game changer. And then I know you touched on hardships. One thing that we saw that's concerning, at least to us as third-party administrators, because we see so many different plans, we've noticed a real increase in people taking hardships now that they can self-certify the hardship and they don't have to present proof. So for me, as somebody, you know, kind of watching the industry as a whole and working, you know, because I I work on the Legislative Relations Committee or ARA and things like that. Well, I think self-certification for hardships was great for plan sponsors. I think it's not been great for people keeping their money in the 401k plan and actually letting it grow to retirement. So that's been a little bit disappointing to see. We'll see what comes of that later and how how that evolves since that's really very new. So I'm glad that your plan doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

SPEAKER_04 16:16

Um, no, but still I do feel, you know, sensitive for the even the two people that it is an issue for. But I think that um one of the developments in recent years with financial wellness has also been a really great help because I think that people like to be able to step back and learn more generally what are the skills that they need. And you know, it's great to be thinking about retirement, but there are also interim goals that people have that they may not be really sure how to balance all of the needs that they're gonna have, especially as we alluded to earlier, younger people really need to figure out what is their immediate goal and what is their midterm goal and what is their long-term goal. And if you have somebody who is able to kind of demonstrate that for you, not so much to be you should, you should, you should, and more like here's what's available to you, here are your opportunities. I think that that can be very successful so that people will learn how to manage debt, good debt, bad debt. People will uh learn how to have an emergency fund, which some people have through their plans. That is not something that we have adopted. I don't know what the uptake is. And in fact, I want to check on the PSDA survey to see if there's any reporting on that.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

I think it's pretty low right now, but I'm hearing more and more about different products that are coming out that maybe will make it easier. So I think that we'll see an uptake because I think you're right, the financial literacy stuff that's been coming up, the financial wellness stuff. It was amazing to me when I started. I wrote an article probably five or six years ago on like financial wellness and doing studies, you know, doing the research, it was amazing to me how few states require any sort of financial wellness or financial literacy claims before you graduate from high school. And, you know, and then there was some reporting too about, you know, even parents that can't teach their kids because they never learned. And so the parents need to be educated. And then there was a survey talking about parents who would rather talk to their kids about drugs and other things than talking to their kids about money that it's so uncomfortable for them to talk about. So I think we have a long way to get a movement. I love what our industry is doing in this program is recognizing that there's a need and really starting to address that need at earlier ages. So we have a lot of volunteers in this industry that are very passionate about financial literacy too. So you've handled leadership roles across the industry from serving as president of PSCA and now you're leading the ARA. What inspired you to get involved at that level and how have those experiences influenced your perspective on the broader retirement system?

SPEAKER_04 19:10

Well, I don't know that I was that ambitious that I really decided that I would like to be president of PSCA or president of ARA. I got involved because I cared a lot about the legal and legislative side. And so when I was just a member at PSCA, I was given the opportunity to join the committee. They called it legal and legislative. Now we refer to it as government affairs committee. But from way back when, uh really when I started at Nextera in 08, is when I got involved with PSCA. And I loved them because they were very interested in education of participants and education of plan sponsors, especially the smaller plan sponsors who really might not have, you know, maybe they ended up in the role that they're in, maybe they knew payroll and now they were asked to also administer 401k and suddenly they're the person. So I thought that I was really interested in the legal and legislative side. So I was on that committee, and then, you know, you just have opportunities open up. And uh somebody said, Well, would you like to go into the leadership track for becoming president? And I said, Oh, I don't think I would have the skills for that, and I don't know that I'm the right person for that. And I just got a lot of encouragement, particularly from the president and vice president, and you know, people encourage you, and then you say, All right, well, I can try it. And I view it more as service rather than uh some type of a it's not like an ivory tower, you know. You are as you well know, Shannon, nobody does more for the organization than you do and other volunteer stuff as well. But when I had that opportunity, I was lucky enough to receive the encouragement. And so I was president of PSCA. And it was at a wonderful, wonderful time of the history of that organization. PSCA, you may know, started in 1947 as the Profit Sharing Council of America. That was before 401ks ever existed. Then they changed their name later on to Plan Sponsor Council of America. But at the time when I was president, it was right around the time when PSCA was uh able to join forces with ARA. And that's just been the most wonderful thing for PSCA. I think PSCA very well rounded out the membership and the focus of ARA as well, because to have plant sponsors as part of that overall umbrella is really, really important. And that's one of the things I love the most about ARA. It just has uh so many different areas of the profession that it touches and it positively impacts. So after I was uh part of ARA, that you sit on the leadership board of directors as the president of the they call it sister organizations, as you know. And um, so when I was president of the sister organization, I went to the ARA meetings and I um just got more and more interested in that and I um got in leadership there.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah, I agree that bringing PSCA into ARA really did round out the organization so well. And I because I think PSCA came in about the time that I was sitting on the board for the first time and just getting to know and really, I mean, like I knew NEMPA, the advisor's sister organization, and obviously I knew the actuary's sister organization, but like Nempha I wasn't as familiar with, and then PSDA. So it was really such an incredible opportunity for me to be able to learn all about the different sister organizations and how we all work together. And when when PSDA came on, I think it was such a great addition because we do we need to understand what the planned sponsors are looking for. I know they do an attention and not assignment every year about, you know, like what do planned monsters want. And the speaker, you know, the little bit of sitting on this and right as the TPA or as the financial advisor, we think we know what planned sponsors want, but it's amazing to sit in that attention. And sometimes it'll surprise you. They're like, no, I don't want this. This is gonna complicate things. We're not using this. You know, it is, it's really neat to have them not be a part of our organization where we can get that input before we go to DC and try to advocate for law changes and things like that. So it is really cool. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

And some of the things are not expected. Like I think that many in the investment uh field might have thought that plant sponsors would be really interested in adopting ESG investments, um, environmental, social, and governance-focused investments, that uh there really was very little desire to adopt that. Most of the time it relates to the fact that it just complicates the education. And the point of the 401k is not to have the types of investments that are short-term. You want to have it's got to be focused on retirement or long-term investing. And so those are not always conducive. ESG is not always conducive to that.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Yeah, absolutely. And I think this the more simple we keep it for planned participants, yeah, the better, because we have seen that they do get paralyzed when they have too many choices and too much information. They just won't make a choice instead of making a choice. That's right. You've been at the table for some of the most important conversations around plan design, governance, and participant outcomes. Looking back, what accomplishments are you most proud of? Whether that's at in your current position, a prior position, or in your leadership roles at PSEA and ARA.

SPEAKER_04 25:10

Well, I actually had the opportunity to think about this recently, and it occurred to me that perhaps some of the things I'm most proud of in my current role as an attorney would be to counsel people against doing certain plan provisions that may be problematic for reasons that they do not uh foresee, or uh, you know, just to add that type of context. So I can't give you any specifics, that kind of a thing. Um, I don't think anyone would like me talking about that, but I thought that that was really one of the most important things that I had added. I would like to think also that I have been uh constructive in the fiduciary committee area to try to add some continuity and to assist with the membership so that everyone feels, you know, it's education of fiduciary committee members is really important. So that's something that I've been uh involved with as well. That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

How has your work at Nextera helped close the retirement savings gap for your employees? And can you share an example of a change or an initiative or insight that made a measurable difference?

SPEAKER_04 26:29

Well, I think that auto enroll did make a very good difference. It was something that was challenging to adopt in the beginning because we had various population groups, um several union groups, which of course you have to negotiate. These days you wouldn't have to because a legally required change would be something that, of course, would be adopted. But in the days when auto enroll was first uh implemented here, uh there were several different uh groups that had to negotiate what the level was going to be. And you know, they had other different terms too. Well, they're gonna have different vesting and different auto-escalate. So um that was challenging because the more complication you add to the administration, the more opportunity there is for you know mistakes in administration and you know, nothing's a hundred percent perfect. That's why we have the correction programs through the IRS, which are really important. When I first started, they didn't have those.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:32

And the EPCRS has been a marvelous opportunity. So my point is that when auto enroll came in, that was something that we, you know, we really we jumped into that because we thought that that was going to be um really important for people. And it has been. We always had you know pretty good participation rates, but um, my understanding is they're you know right around 95%, which is wow, that's amazing. Super. That's amazing, yeah. And we tend to have, you know, many people are uh longer-term employees too, so they're really able to accumulate, you know, some kind of a nest egg to retire on. So that's been really good. Another thing they did was to, you know, many years ago, before I was here, they had hundreds of investment options and like 200 investment options. Wow. So that was uh paired back substantially so that you have a suite of investments that people can understand their different investment objectives, and they're they cover all the bases, um, particularly in target retirement, which I'm a big fan of. I'm a I'm really incredibly big fan of target retirement date funds. Yeah. Um, because I think that it's important for people to set it and forget it. They don't need to go in there, you know, nobody is discouraging people from going in and looking at your balance and all that, but you don't need to be a day trader in 401k. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Right. No, I totally agree. And even, you know, Marjorie, I love that you say that because I think target date funds have been a game changer for our industry as well. Because even, okay, even people like me, I work in this industry every day, 40 hours a week. I don't know anything about investments. I mean because I'm not an investment advisor. I mean, hire an investment advisor for my planning for my for my, you know, personal incidents because I mean I don't want to. I don't think you can be an expert in compliance and an expert in the investment somebody, both. And so I've chosen compliance and hire an expert for the investments. And you know, I'm gonna have to set it and forget it. Somebody has to manage it for me. I don't even look at my balance very often. So yeah, I totally agree with you.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

As I said, I've had some investment experience uh in the past, and one of my roles too now is to advise the trust fund investment group. So I'm um very involved with um not only the Fiduciary Committee for Investments, but for the administration folks too, in they make recommendations to the committee as to what funds should be uh part of the lineup and also the um a very extensive pension portfolio. So I do feel confident in uh understanding the various types of investments and would probably be able to do a halfway decent job in the absence of target retirement date funds. But why? When I have a target retirement date fund that has significant returns based upon indexes, there's no reason for me to spend my time trying to figure out what's best for my portfolio. And so I'm just a I'm a really big believer.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Yeah, I am too. I am too. So as ARA president, you are in a unique position to see the whole ecosystem, plan sponsors, advisors, record keepers, policymakers. From that vantage point, what progress do you see toward closing both the savings gap and the coverage gap that still and what still needs the most attention?

SPEAKER_04 31:15

Well, that's a great question. I think that the ARA has been really great because as you alluded to earlier, the fact that we have various organizations involved with different focuses, I think makes the conversation more prevalent. You know, more people are discussing it. And so we also have quite a bit of communication going on. We have wonderful writers, our uh newsletter staff, and we have publications. Um, just this morning I was uh very proud to read in the uh NAPA net, there were a couple hundred uh women leaders who were honored, um, several of them I know personally from my work in uh ARA. And so I'm just so very proud of them. But we we're we're focusing on the communication of these important issues. And as uh areas such as lifetime income become more and more important, you know, we we focused, I think, for a lot of years on the accumulation phase and maybe not so very much on, okay, now that I've accumulated this terrific uh, you know, pot of gold, how am I going to use it so that I can have the kind of retirement and sustain myself in retirement in the way that I would like to be accustomed and not suddenly turn around and not know what to do? So I think that, you know, it the more people talk about these things, the better it is. And you are able to focus on the future and not just so much, oh, you have to get rid of your uh Starbucks every week so you have enough to put into your 401k account. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

What do you think some of the biggest challenges are for large employers like yours? And what what do you think their biggest challenges are in helping their employees achieve retirement readiness? And how are you all tackling that at your job?

SPEAKER_04 33:18

Well, again, I think the communications are what's really important. You know, at a large company and really at many companies, it's not just large companies, many companies have uh very different levels of uh ages in their workforce, educational backgrounds, and you know, frankly, interests. So it's really important to be able to not so much find a common denominator, but to be able to have targeted messages that speak to various needs. And I think that if you become a trusted voice with employees, then you know that goes a long way towards helping them to recognize the um opportunities that they have. And, you know, every employer that offers employee benefits, not just 401k, wants to make sure that they're offering things that balance the uh investment that the employer is making in them with the needs of the employees so that the employees value them and um hopefully will want to stay your employees because they value them. So there's you know, that's a huge balance because you can't always just throw money at something. You have to know what are the actual needs of the employees. So I think the challenge is to direct your message and to repeat things enough without being so uh predictable that people hit delete before they'll read the email. You know, you have to check, yeah, you gotta check the open rate and um we have a great communications team who does that, but they are not experts in you know benefits. And so the administration staff is you know integral to helping, and they partner with the communications people to ensure that they have a message that really resonates with different groups of employees and doesn't turn anybody off. Right. Nothing worse than talking about you know how uh how to have a um sophisticated investment when somebody is just starting out in their career and they're like, listen, I'd love to be able to feel really great about contributing the auto enroll at 3% year one.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Right, right. Yeah, it is hard, especially, you know, if you have a small doctor's office with 10 employees and you have your financial advisor come in and talk to them all at once. That's way different than having thousands of employees that you have to speak to and keep their attention, especially when you are dealing with different age groups too, and how they communicate and whether or not they, you know, are they on their phone or their computer or how that all works.

SPEAKER_04 36:01

So and that's a challenge too for a lawyer advising because I'm always um very interested in a channel of communications that is going to be, you know, something you can keep a record of and have some consistency. So I'm not one who is big on the gamification in terms of the messaging. I know that's not always a popular view. So, you know, sometimes they have to keep me, you know, placate me to understand what their needs are and in um communication needs. And so we've gotten a lot more comfortable with um electronic delivery of stuff. And, you know, we make sure that we follow the rules, but um, there are with a great deal of workers who don't have a computer at their desk, you know, we have linemen who are out in the trucks and they have real sophisticated um iPads and stuff to work on because we're we're highly, highly, you know, electronic. You know, it's not just like the wires anymore. It is and don't even let me go there because I really can't explain it very well. But the point is just because they have the iPads and stuff doesn't mean it's gonna meet delivery requirements under the DOL regs. So there's a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Yeah, there is definitely. And all of us are trying to figure out how to do that more electronically.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

So um the regulatory environment keeps evolving. We had Secure 2.0, and now we're implementing Secure 2.0. And um there's even now ongoing policy discussions about plan coverage and portability, and we're already talking about secure 3.0. What do you think plan sponsors most need from policymakers and industry partners to stay effective and compliant?

SPEAKER_04 37:47

I think they need to have consistency and lack of complexity. I'll give an example, and I um I think their heart was in the right place, but the um what is people are referring to as super catch up for just those uh few ages 60 to 63 where people can put in a higher amount of free tax. I find that to be I don't think that that hits the mark. I think that they had a good intention that they want that was what catch up was all about to begin with. And I'm trying to remember whether I was even a big fan of ketchup in the beginning. I think what I like better about regular catch up is that you know, once you hit that age, then that just stays stable. But now to add in another level of age 60 to 63 and not 64. So people are gonna, the ones who are 64 are like, what the hey? You're telling me I can't do this? That can't be right. So um that was something that I think was a level of complexity that I don't know if that's really gonna work out. And uh it wasn't even that clear that it was something that was voluntary. So that's a challenge. Um, another one I think I might have mentioned already the um Raw uh Compass, that you know, that one was, yeah, it's great if maybe at a smaller place if they had um, you know, just many more uh highly compensated people, you know, we just have a regular balance of highly compensated people. So I don't know that that made the most sense. To me, the real challenge is to make sure that rules are uh predictable, that they don't vary widely from administration to administration. We had some ping-ponging on, for example, the ESG and the proxy voting. And uh I don't think that's very helpful, and I don't think that's a controversial thing to say. So um I'm hoping that the um Department of Labor's focus will be on streamlining things more and not making things complicated for the plan sponsors and by extension the whole industry.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

Yeah, no, I do think we I think that more small employers will adopt plans if they are less complex. And that's what we need, right? We want to close the coverage gap. And so the more complex we make them, the less likely people are to adopt them. I mean, and it's not even just the ones that are penned because something can be pended and it seems very straightforward when it comes in, but then it gets interpreted in in a way by the airmen that is incredibly compliment, like the one catchment contributions and like the long-term part-time employees. Both of them interpretations, both of those interpretations by the government could have come in a different way that would have made them somewhat less compliment. They wouldn't have come with the white spread panic and headache. I mean, we have committed saying, I don't know. I just want to catch up. If I have to have a month, I don't I just want to catch up. And we had one very large employer who did not do the super content because they didn't want to have to deal with the complexity. And so I think you're really we need less complex rules. And I know and I'm not saying that the government has deliberately made them as complex as possible, right? Because they read the long and the other laws that surround that long and they had to interpret it the way they did. But now we have to go back to Congress and try to get things fixed so that maybe they're not as complex in the reading.

SPEAKER_04 41:46

And I think the danger, Shannon, is um very great at this moment because right now um people are um claiming that the gap is causing people to not have the opportunity to have a retirement plan. And of course, we want to encourage people to have retirement plans, but from way back when PSCA was always interested in no mandates. We let us have a plan design that works for our group. And there is quite a strong movement with some people in Congress to go completely away from the private employer-sponsored plan, to have a government-controlled plan as though that were going to solve all the problems that exist. And so I think there's a there's a I think it's incumbent on us in our industry to make sure that we are able to communicate with our lawmakers that the system that we have is a great system. We are not having a tax uh holiday forever, it's a tax deferral on retirement savings. And that this makes the huge difference between having enough to be comfortable in your retirement and not. And I don't think that uh I think that if people are dissuaded that the private employer sponsored system is working, then there then you know there's going to be more talk about taking that away. And things like the um retirement savings for Americans Act is an example of the type of program that is being talked about that will just start a government savings plan. And I don't think that's the direction that we should go in.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

I agree. I totally agree. So, as past president of Plan Sponsor Council of America, can you tell my audience what PSCA does for plan sponsors and why they should consider joining the organization? And how does it help working Americans be able to retire with dignity?

SPEAKER_04 44:00

Well, I think it's really important that even if a a smaller employer has a plan, if they don't have uh people working on the plan, even if their role is to uh coordinate with a very strong TPA, you know, that often they don't have to know everything there is to know about plan administration when they have, you know, excellent professionals that they're working with. But the point that I would make is that if they don't feel well enough versed to be able to converse with employees about it, to answer questions when you meet somebody at the in a hallway or at a water cooler, and to be able to really um speak to what the plan is all about and how it operates, then if they're not comfortable, they're not gonna do that. And if people don't know about the plan and if they may have concerns, for example, if somebody says, Oh, well, I don't want to contribute to the plan, I'm gonna opt out because I might need to uh help my uh daughter with college tuition. And so I wouldn't be able to access that money. If you have somebody who is knowledgeable about opportunities under the plan and plan design, then you're gonna have that objection overcome. And maybe that employee will feel more comfortable participating. And so PSCA is they do a wonderful job of education. They have uh national conferences that are really fantastic because the plan sponsor members can come and talk with each other and say what's working for you, what's not working for you, and they can have very frank and you know, candid, confidential conversations about what's working and what are their challenges they're facing. And I mentioned earlier also the uh survey that PSCA does because that enables people to, if they participate, they get a free copy of the survey, they can buy it. But it's always nice to get a free copy of this very comprehensive survey so that you know what are the prevalent plan provisions that people have, and that helps you to have a plan that people want to participate in. So there's always going to be uh people who don't take advantage, but the more you have an educated plan sponsor ecosystem, if you will, the more the employees who work at those companies will participate. And I think um PSEA, uh that's one of their big focuses.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

I know I agree. I actually had the opportunity to offer some of their education classes to some of my clients at no cost to my client. And my clients who took it said it was excellent. They really liked it, it was very helpful because even those people who work with a TPA, right? And my clients can call me anytime they want, they can ask questions, but I'm sitting in their office with them every single day, helping them with payroll. And just having some sort of base education around what are your responsibilities as the planned sponsor, what are your responsibilities as the fiduciary? How do these things work? What is that craziest of Shimon is talking to me about when she comes me? And what do these words mean? And then just some sort of level of education is helpful. And I think PSCA does an amazing job with their education. And also you're right, the survey, we might take the survey every year so that I can get a copy of it. And I will put it at the end, I will put it in the show notes of how to get it, how to participate in the survey and where to get a copy of it because I think it is such a valuable tool that we fill it out every year. And the more people that we get to fill it out, the more feedback we have, because we even send the link out to all of our clients every year and ask them to participate. Just because, like I said, the more people we have participate, the more information we have as an organization, and the better we can serve, you know, all of our plan sponsors and everybody else. So as president of the American Retirement Association and having been involved on the ARA board of directors for a while now, leading up to leading up to that, what have you seen the ARA and all of the five sister organizations do that benefits plan sponsors and ultimately their plan participants?

SPEAKER_04 48:16

Just the idea that there is an ARA that has all of these different sister organizations. The fact that you have those different industries talking to each other, I think makes a huge, huge difference in um what is available out there in terms of education and information. And, you know, it's it's like one person talks to the next person, talks to the next person. I have met some people in ARA's uh board of directors that are just phenomenal people. And you can see the leadership that they um exude at their different organizations. But the cross-pollination, if you will, is um something that's really important and you get ideas about um what are challenges in different areas. I had mentioned at the um national conference for PSCA that the plant sponsors are able to get together and talk about challenges. Well, when they are able to speak with, for example, AFPA members who talk about challenges on administration and NAPA members who talk about challenges investments and uh plan advisors. I think that that um education uh enables you to offer a better product for your own employees. So I think that ARA is unique in that respect, and um they're doing a wonderful job in uh making sure that people are aware in this country of the importance of the retirement system.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

So before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to say to our audience, audience sponsors, financial advisors, anything else you'd like to, any tidbit of advice?

SPEAKER_04 50:06

Well, keep doing what you're doing is a good one. But um I'll also say that in a more general sense, um getting to meet all of these different um professionals makes me even more uh sure of the uh urgency and importance of communicating with uh other people. You know, things are very uh challenging um politically in the United States at this time. And I think we all have a significant opportunity to turn down the volume and to turn up the communications and understand that everybody we're speaking to, as Jeff Atchison would say, has stuff that they are going through and that they're thinking about. And so the respect in conversations and to be openly and communicative with others is uh it's a challenge I think we all face right now, not just in the retirement industry. I am very uh thrilled that in our area it is virtually nonpartisan because it's important to everyone to have a secure retirement. It doesn't matter where they came from, it doesn't matter what their beliefs are. That's something that unites all of us. And so uh I'm just happy to be a part of a group that is able to um focus on that.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

I totally agree. We are very lucky, um, very lucky to have the ARA and that it is a nonpartisan, nonpartisan group. So Marjorie, thank you so much for sharing your time, your insights, and your perspective with us today. It's inspiring to hear directly from a plann sponsor who's leading both within her company and across the national stage through your work in ARA. To our listeners, thank you. Really, thank you, and thank you for recording this with me today, my post-record. To our listeners, thank you for tuning in to another episode of the gap. If you believe that you have an innovative approach to closing the gaps in retirement savings for Americans and you would like to share your ideas, let me know. My contact information is in the show notes. Don't forget to thumb below, share a labor review if you've enjoyed this conversation. Together we can keep closing the gap one plan, one policy, and one participant at a time.