Beyond the Numbers: How Actuaries Strengthen Retirement Security Through Education, Communication, and Leadership

When most people think of actuaries, they picture spreadsheets and formulas—but behind the math are people who help businesses protect promises made to their employees.

In this episode of The Gap, Shannon Edwards sits down with two leaders shaping the future of retirement plan design and administration: Lynn Young, Partner at Pinnacle Plan Design, and Erin Russell, Co-President of Actuaries Unlimited, Inc. Both are seasoned actuaries who specialize in single-employer defined benefit and cash balance plans—and both are passionate about making these plans work better for employers, advisors, and participants alike.

Lynn and Erin pull back the curtain on what really drives success in complex retirement plan design: clear communication, proactive education, and collaboration between actuaries, advisors, and plan sponsors. They share how their firms have built strong internal cultures that value mentorship, work-life balance, and “homegrown” expertise—because the more educated and supported your team is, the better they can support clients.

Whether you’re an advisor helping your clients evaluate the right retirement strategy or a plan sponsor seeking to strengthen your company’s retirement offering, this episode offers real-world insights you can use immediately to build stronger, more sustainable plans.

In this episode, Shannon, Lynn, and Erin explore:

• Why strong advisor–actuary communication can make or break plan success
• How early, proactive education prevents costly surprises years down the road
• What “homegrown actuaries” can teach every firm about developing confident experts
• Why balance, flexibility, and mentorship are essential to long-term success in our industry

Key Takeaways for Plan Sponsors & Advisors:

✅ Clarity matters. The best-designed plan can still fail if clients and advisors don’t fully understand how contributions and funding rules work from day one.

✅ Partnership is powerful. Actuaries, TPAs, and advisors each bring unique perspectives—when they collaborate, everyone wins, especially participants.

✅

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the gap. A podcast designed exclusively for financial advisors and employers seeking to enhance their retirement plan operates and bridge the gap in America's retirement security. We talk to change makers and dive into innovative strategies, compliance updates, and best practices to help you provide top-notch retirement solutions, stay ahead of the future, and ensure a secure financial future for all Americans. Here's your host, Shannon Edwards.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

Welcome back to the gap. I am Shannon Edwards, your host and owner of TriStar Pension Consulting. I would like to welcome all listeners to our podcast with a special welcome to those of you listening for the first time. I started this podcast because I have a passion for helping Americans achieve a dignified retirement. By sharing innovative ideas, this podcast is designed to help close the gaps that America has in retirement savings and coverage. By doing so, we can improve the lives of working Americans. Today I'm excited to be joined by two incredible women who have built their careers around helping employers navigate the world of defined benefit plans. Lynn Young from Pinnacle Plan Design and Erin Russell from Actuaries Unlimited. Both are not only leaders in their firms, but also leaders in the private retirement plan industry. Lynn Young is a partner and enrolled actuary at Pinnacle Plan Design. With over four decades of experience, she's a nationally recognized consultant and educator, co-author of the Define Benefit Answer Book, and a past president of the American Society of Enrolled Actuaries. She serves on the board of directors of the American Retirement Association and has received multiple industry awards for her leadership and contributions. She was also the first person to receive both ASPAS Educator Award and ASEA's Edward E. Burroughs Distinguished Achievement Award in the same year, a recognition of both her technical skill and her commitment to educating others in the industry. Erin Russell is a partner in Enrolled Actuary with Actuaries Unlimited. She's been in the firm for more than 20 years, serving in a variety of roles before becoming partner. Erin is known for her deep expertise in plan design, compliance, and administration, and she holds multiple professional designations, including MSPA, certified pension consultant, and qualified plan administrator. Under her leadership, AUI serves thousands of plans across industries and a trust is a trusted partner to employers nationwide. Together, they represent the kind of leadership, expertise, and heart that it takes to keep the private retirement system strong. And I can't wait to hear their perspective on how defined benefit and cash balance plans can be a part of the solution to closing the gap. So let's get started. Lynn and Erin, I want you to both start by telling me what your personal journey looked like. What first drew you into the retirement services industry? And how did you find yourself specializing in defined benefit and cash balance plans? We'll start with Erin.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Okay. I started at Actuaries Unlimited right out of college. I didn't know what an actuary was. I was not, unlike a lot of actuaries that you will meet, I was not a math major, but I needed a job. I wanted to stay in LA and I needed to pay my rent. So I actually started here as the president's administrative assistant. Once I got in here, I really loved all of like the number crunching and I loved working on the deadlines and I like loved like helping clients understand. At that point, I was just telling them where to sign their 5,500 forms and, you know, making copies of their files because it was a long time ago. So we still had paper copies. From there, I decided that like I was really interested in moving forward my career in the pension industry. So I started taking ASPA exams. I worked my way up. I became a junior plan administrator. I became a DC plan administrator. And then DB plans really interested me. Like they kind of spoke to me. I thought they were super interesting. So I started taking the ASPA DB designation exams and took everything I could take. And then I decided that I was going to go for it and take the enrolled actuary exams. Not being a math major, it really scared me. But for whatever reason, I was able to study. I got through all of the exams. I like started reviewing a little bit as I was still a combo plan administrator. And I've just kind of worked my way up here. And I won't leave because I love it and I love what we do. And I love teaching others and giving the same amount of time and energy that was placed into my education, bringing up to others like in our field and young up-and-coming plann administrators. Awesome. Lynn?

SPEAKER_05 4:45

Well, first I want to thank you for the intro. At first, I was thinking, I want to meet that person. I actually wanted to be an actuary. I actually started out as a biology major and uh wanted to do pre-med and then kind of changed uh while I was in school and got recruited by both the science department and the math department. So then I leaned more towards the math department with the business with a kind of a business background. You would think though, having the math piece of it, you know, I started I didn't start taking exams until I was probably 10 years into it. But you would think taking the exams, being a math major would help. But I was able to pass the law and the first two pieces relatively easy, but the math one was the hardest one for me, probably because it was so far removed from couch. What makes I think the small plan, you know, interesting is those are the plans that are growing. You know, you're seeing more and more of them. And you look at the workforce today, and so many, you know, small plan employers have kind of taken their any profits and turned them back into the business and really haven't been able to focus on themselves. So being able to help people after the fact, you know, kind of as they're going towards the latter part of their career to help them kind of make up for all that lost time, but still providing a benefit to their staff, I think is something that has defined benefit plan and cash balance plans have grown more and more. That's been the part that's really been interesting to me.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Awesome. Yeah, you're the first person I think that's told me that they wanted to do this. I fell into this industry by accident, but uh, you chose it. Okay. Erin, you've been with Actuaries Unlimited for more than 20 years, growing from a plant administrator to an actuary to a partner. Looking back, what experiences or mentors shaped your career path?

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Oh, I would definitely say like I'm still learning, but Mindy Gassman, who was the president of the company, she really took me under her wing. And I have always really appreciated like the amount of time and patience that she poured into me when I would make a mistake. She would call me into her office and show me exactly, you know, what I was doing wrong. She would include me in client calls and meetings and kind of like let me watch her interact with clients and, you know, do the consulting part of it, which is, and I, in my opinion, because defined benefit and cash balance plans are so hard to understand, to have that skill set to be able to explain that. It's something, it's like a muscle. You have to practice it and you get better at it year after year as you continue to do so. She really showed me like what it was to be a mentor. And I will say, Lynn has really taken me under her wing over the last few years in a different way. And I feel like so encouraged and supported by other women in the industry that aren't even like women that I work with on a day-to-day basis. And it makes me excited and happy to kind of like provide that to others. Like, you know, as I'm becoming more senior in my career, I feel like it's really important to pay it forward and you know what I was given to give that back.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Nice. And Lynn, with more than four decades in the field, were there any pivotal moments that solidified your passion for this work?

SPEAKER_05 8:20

Yeah, I would say there's early on in my career, I had one of the actuaries that took me under her wings, Kathleen Manning, um who was pretty well known in the Chicago area. And she actually worked with me quite a bit because I think when I first started, and you know, I'd ask the question on something and they give me an answer, you know, because. And so that I that wasn't satisfied with that. I needed to know the why behind stuff. And so she would fill me in and all the pieces behind it. So I think that helped me along the way, and I try and do that with other individuals. Right when I became enrolled, I was trying to figure out what path I was gonna take, kind of to continue. You know, it's enrolled actuaries, you've got that continuing education, and it's a little bit stricter on what actually counts for it. So I went the first year to the enrolled actuaries meeting, and it was my one and done. And I went to an ASPA meeting and being in the small plan market, I decided that that was where I was gonna actually try and spend my time. And then after a couple of years into it, I really started thinking about, you know, hey, they really helped me through getting to pass the exams and things like that, that I wanted to give back, like some of these individuals were. And so I started kind of volunteering. And I think the thing that made the the biggest thing to me, difference to me, is as you started volunteering and you were connecting with people, being an introvert somewhat, I would go to the conferences and not know anybody, and it would just be a learning thing, and it then became into something much more.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Yeah, it has for me too, I know for Aaron as well. Lynn, you've not only co-authored the Define Benefit Answer Book, but you were also the first person to receive ASPA's Educator Award and ASEA's Edward E. Burroughs Distinguished Achievement Award. That is a mouthful. In the same year, what do those recognitions mean to you? And what drives your passion for education and leadership in this space?

SPEAKER_05 10:24

You know, it's funny because when they actually let me know that I won the award, you know, first thing that came to mind is wow, there's so many other deserving people, you know. And I didn't how did I get that? The big thing to me is I think the things I've learned has been through volunteering. So I continue to try and push others to get involved and make a difference and help the others along the way because that's how we're gonna actually drive the mission of the organization.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Yeah, very true. And we all know that we need younger people coming up behind us to take care of all the new plans we're gonna have over the next several years. Erin, under your leadership at AUI, the firm has grown to serve thousands of retirement plans across industries. What are some of the accomplishments you're most proud of in building and guiding the growth of the firm?

SPEAKER_01 11:13

I will tell you one thing, and it's kind of off the beaten path that I'm the most proud of is um kind of instilling a better work life balance to all of our employees here. When I first started at the company, it was like a badge of honor. If you were working 12 to 14 hours a day and working all weekend, and that's never been something I've been interested in. I feel like we do work as a team and there are deadlines and we do do hard work. However, we make it important that like work life balance is very important and that you shouldn't be working until all hours of the night and on the weekends. And I'm very proud of that. I'm also really proud of our in-house education system that I basically installed and have been powering for years now. When I first started, it was just if you wanted to be a planned administrator, you studied for the ASPA exams. And there was really, aside from like maybe some ASPA webcasts that they would like blast out in the conference room for everyone, there wasn't much like education on a global level at the company. It was a lot of one-on-one. We've now taken the stance that like in-house training, especially because we have so many actuaries here, is so important because we do have a lot of education to share. So now we do a lot more of in-house training for our staff only. That way, people who don't know as much can feel free to answer, ask questions and not feel embarrassed because it's a smaller group setting than maybe going to a conference and being like raising your hand and being like, I have a question. They know us, they feel more, you know, more comfortable. And through this whole training process, we have we call them homegrown actuaries. I am one. I started here, not an actuary. I took the exams like while working here. We now have eight homegrown actuaries. And that's something like I take a lot of pride in that we've taken the time to train to get people excited about it and interested in it and seeing that there's a career path for them. You know, those two things are my big thing is education and work-life balance. So I feel like we've done a really good job. It's not always perfect, right? But we've done a really good job trying to instill that like in any, you know, new and up-and-coming plant administrators here at the office.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Yeah. So I started in an accounting firm and was expected to work, you know, over 300 hours of overtime a year. And that was one of the reasons I left and started TriStar, was because I had no interest in that. And I wanted to build a firm where young moms specifically could build a really good career that they could be proud of and could take them for years, you know, that they could actually work in for years, but still have the time to raise a family because I felt like when I was at the accounting firm, I did not have the time to give to my family at all. And it, it was just, it just got to be too crazy.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

So I mean, and I will say we have a couple of, you know, young moms who are plant administrators, and the way that they manage their time is just absolutely amazing to me. And they're taking the ASPA exams. And I just kind of look back and I'm sure I was that way 10 or 15 years ago, but it just amazes me because having small kids at home and take getting your work done and taking on, you know, helping out because other people are behind and then taking ASPA exams on top of it, it's impressive. But I feel like we give them that environment so that they can have flexible schedules, you know, if they need to. And we like train so that they get excited about taking tests because, you know, they want to like increase their breadth of knowledge. It's really exciting to watch.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Yeah. I actually, so I was taking the ASBA exams before I had my oldest son who's now 30. And I got through the qualified ban administrator, the QPA, after sitting for a semester with an actuary who taught me everything I needed to know for the DB section. That was super exciting, by the way. And so I got through that and then started taking the CPC exams and then obviously had kids and started a business. So I think it took me something like 25 years to finish the CPC exam because I had to put it on hold to start TriStar and to have more kids and all that kind of stuff. So the fact that you have people and give them time, you know, and encourage them to take those exams, I think it's great. We do the same here. We actually require ASPA education and ASPA exams or them to at least be working towards their designations when they come to work for us. So it's really important. For both of you, what lessons have you learned from your proudest achievements that you think are especially important for others in our industry to hear? Don't both of you go at once.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Not everyone at once.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Yeah, I'm thinking too. I mean, one of my biggest achievements was actually passing that math exam for the actual exams. That was a doozy. And I just remember I sat for it while I was pregnant with twins the first time and it didn't pass. And I took it again when my kids were where they were toddlers. And I just remember telling my husband, like, I don't know, like it was my last exam. I'm like Lynn, I took the law and the funding methods, pass those, no problem. It's the math portion of it that like really sticks you up. But I told my husband, like, I don't if I don't pass this, I don't know if I have it in me to do it again. It's so much with babies at home, but I passed. So that was a really like big achievement for me. And then also kind of just what I touched on about like instituting the training system here at the office and getting people excited about learning and knowing. Like, I hang my hat on the fact that like we are not just plan administrators, we're also consultants. And, you know, communication is king when it comes to clients and getting in front of problems and being transparent about things. And I hope that I model that to our staff so that they're better communicators, they're better plan administrators, and they have the knowledge to go along with it. They're not just like talking the talk, they have they have the walk to back it up as well.

SPEAKER_05 17:24

So I would say for me, probably getting my enrollment, you know, the thing I tell people is that, you know, after you pass the exam, you know, nobody cares how many times it took you to get there, right? What the path looked like. But you really think about it, once you get past it, it just means that you were able to study a certain way to learn how the questions are to pass it. It's what you do with you with things afterwards. Because the consulting piece and being able to kind of help clients see things, make sure they understand what they need to communicate, those type of things, those are things that as you look and see when you take over stuff, where somebody's, you know, somebody's very confused about how they got a certain place. A lot of times, what's what I've seen is that it's kind of been, they've been with someone who has really just kind of given them numbers with no consulting piece around it. And all of a sudden now they're in a world to hurt, and you're trying to help them fix that problem. So to me, and even as I look at as AI coming up and things like that, it can do the math piece, it can kind of apply law, apply laws, stuff in that. What it can't do is take in the what the clients needs are, those type of things that to factor that in. So I think that piece is always going to be something that's gonna really show our value. And from a small plan actuary size, you know, side of things, you know, in a year I could go through 200 different clients with different things. When I worked on large plans, I had 10 clients. The things that I saw were very, very different, you know, and so it's just a different type of learning thing. You know, is you know, things in demographics didn't really matter when you're dealing with 10,000 people. When you're dealing with six and one person leaves, you know, that kind of changes things drastically.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Right, right. Yeah, and Aaron, you were talking about the math. So you all probably don't, I don't even think I've ever told Lynn this, but originally when I went to college, my I was a double major accounting and actual real science. My dad had convinced me that I should go be an actuary. I took the first math class and I was like, I am out of here. There is give me bank reconciliations and financial statements, but I am not taking any more math. So, and I think, you know, one of the lessons that I've learned over the years too, one of the things that I hold on to is this industry that we're in. We're so lucky to be here. And if you are someone who wants to make a difference in people's lives and you're willing to work hard and learn, you can make a great career in this industry and change lives while you do it. So I think that's probably one of the biggest lessons I've learned over the years. Define benefit plans and cash balance plans continue to evolve in today's retirement landscape. What are some of the biggest challenges you all are seeing right now, whether it's regulatory complexity, funding, employer education, what are some of the biggest challenges you all see in your side of the industry?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

I'll go first. I'll say like one of the bigger issues that I see is when clients get into something that they don't understand. That's why I feel like it's so important to communicate for them to understand what they're getting themselves into. Because when you set up a cash balance or defined benefit plan, you're setting up a plan document, you're writing in formulas, and you're basically like, I don't want to say you're committing the client to a certain funding level, but you're making assumptions that these funding levels each year will be kind of consistent. And I think that the problem that I see is the clients think that they're gonna have one year where they make a big contribution and that's the only year they needed a tax deduction for, and now they don't really want this plan. And, you know, why did you get me into this mess kind of situation? So I see that I don't see it often, but I've been kind of changing my tactics when we're setting up new plans or doing proposals where I'm kind of trying to get them to understand like what the benefits of the plan are, right? Great, you're getting a tax deduction for this. That's great. Also, do you have any other retirement vehicles that you're saving for? Like how, you know, if these people are like 10 years away from retirement and they haven't seen saved a dime, like it's time to start. There's no time like the present. And especially if they have good cash. So I want them to kind of understand this isn't just like a one-time deal, like, you know, your employees, the other part of it I've really been pushing is this is a great way to keep your employees happy because you're giving them basically free money in this cash balance plan. And, you know, maybe they can't touch or feel it right now, but it's something that you're doing for them that will benefit them down the road. So I think that by communicating a little bit better, it helps with some of these roadblocks. You know, and if we have takeover plans where things weren't explained properly, that becomes an issue. And you have people that are bitter and have hard feelings towards something that they've set up that they don't want now. So I try, you know, I see that a lot, like especially with takeovers where things have gone down one pathway and there was no communication and it wasn't what the client wanted or I had intended. And I think if you change the script a little bit and tell them why you were doing this and how this benefits them and how this benefits the employees, it's a different story. But it's just getting to that point. And sometimes, you know, it's hard to get a client there.

SPEAKER_05 23:08

Yeah. Well, I would say if I could I think there's quite a few things is of course it relies on having a most of the time in the small plan market, it relies on having the 401k plan along with it. And at least once a year I get somebody that says, I'm only going to contribute to the cash balance plan. You know, but as I've gone through some, I had the fortune, you know, the good fortune of working with a client as they were closing down their practice, and they had the same employee that worked for them since the onset. And you know, and this has really made me starting to think about things a bit more. So that employee started with them back when they started, and they worked with them all the way to retirement, and they're gonna have over a million dollars for their retirement. And you think about today with how you know mobile the workforce is and how they change jobs and things like that, the leakage where they don't roll us into something tax deferred. I think that's something that we really have to focus on so that people down the road are gonna have the monies there for retirement. It's you know, there's Social Security, one part of it, but that's only gonna fund a piece of it. And and the so often the focus is on today versus what's gonna happen down the road. And so I'm hoping that as you start hearing more people actually coming in, I think it's the newer gener, you know, the younger generation that's starting to ask about benefits, where the you know, the generation after that, you know, the the generation that was after that one, they focus more on what, you know, how much am I getting paid? I think you're seeing that more and more. And so I'm hoping that that's the message that we can start bringing across is that you may not be getting something out of one plan, you know, a lot out of one plan, but if you keep them all together and keep piling them into something, that you'll have something that you can actually survive off of down the road.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Yeah, definitely. How so we've talked about the challenges you guys are seeing. Um, how are you each approaching these challenges within your firm? So whether innovative plan, whether through innovative plan design or client education, are you leveraging technology? What are you using to address those challenges? And then what's working best in your firm? Lynn, you want to go first?

SPEAKER_05 25:39

Yeah, I would say one of the things that we tried to back early in my career, we had an issue with plans that we were working on. And I think I was maybe three months in to, you know, asking my questions. And I went to the actuary and said, you know, hey, they told me to do this thing, and I don't quite understand it. And I remember I said something like, and they said you just wipe out this all out and you start over. And she turned like kind of red, and she started like saying, like started yelling at me that you can't do it, stuff like that. And then, you know, next thing you know, the next day we get this two-page memo that says all the things that were wrong with it. And then I got every single plan that actually had that issue. I had to redo all the work. So as I start looking at stuff in the consulting piece of it, you know, when you're having to do a bunch of fixing on stuff, you get to see where problems happen. And so for me, what I try and do is some of the things like Aaron talked about is hey, I'm gonna talk with this client about things. I'm gonna discuss with them, you know, and bring younger people in to listen to that so that they can actually, you know, kind of experience because they they often go in there and say, Well, I want to be able to know everything that they're gonna ask me. And I'm like, I don't care if you've been doing this 40 years, you're never gonna know, right? So give the confidence to be able to say, like, you know, I'm gonna have to look into that and get back to you. But in our side, like a lot of things, you know, and this is even dealing with the advisors and that that work on it, is they're all about asset growth. And so we're looking at things from the standpoint of saying, like, you don't want to grow it too quickly. And so it's a very different conversation that you have to have. So being able to blend some of those things in, but staying in your lane is really hard to do.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

It's so hard to do. I actually just had a brand new client, they just set up a cash balance plan, just funded it in September for the first time. And I had a meeting with them and their financial advisor because the financial advisor is like, okay, like let's get the money and let's grow it. And I said, okay, look, like here is kind of like the amount that we're funding at age 62, which is in 10 years. How do you want to get there? Do you want to make planned contributions and use it like as a tax deduction vehicle? Do you want to just like make smaller contributions each year and let the assets do the work for you? It's something to consider because there is definitely like a cutoff point on these things. And I think a lot of times the financial advisors don't understand that we're only assuming most cases like four to five percent rate of return on those planned assets each year. So if they're earning 10 or 15%, the clients don't understand why we come to them the next year and was like, oh, your contribution's$50,000 less than it was the prior year. And I think it was, I saw the light bulb go off on the financial advisors over the financial advisor's head yesterday when I was like, look, here's our target. How do they want to get here? Like, how much each year do they want to fund to get to that point? Because the investments will make a big impact on that, you know, when we're doing an overall strategy. And she's like, I completely understand. And I was like, oh, it's so nice to have this conversation with you in year one of the plan rather than at the, you know, in year 10 when we're like, okay, well, the plan's grown 20% each year. There's no more contributions to the plan, and everyone's upset. So, you know, it's good communication. And I was thinking to myself, like, I need to have more of these conversations with the clients and their advisors at in the early years of the plan so that we're not having the opposite end conversations where I'm like, your plan's overfunded. Here's our exit strategy, and they're not loving what I'm telling them, you know?

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah, that is, you know, coming from the defined contribution side of the industry, that has been the hardest thing for me to communicate to financial advisors. And then we actually had a doctor who we were working with, and we did all the illustrations for them, showed them what the contributions were going to be. They loved it. But when we told them that they had to like hold back on their gains, right? Try your financial advisor needs to try to get somewhere around four to five percent, maybe six percent returns for you, not hitting a home run, not hitting it out of the ballpark. The doctor decided to not put a cash balance plan into place, even though the contributions were so much higher and the deductions were so much larger because they wanted to be able to invest for a home run. They didn't want to be have to invest conservatively to go along with what the way the plan was designed. And it shocked me. I was just like, you're giving up all of these deductions and all of the saving power, right? For because you want to invest differently. It it totally boggled my mind.

SPEAKER_05 30:44

Yeah, I think for me, the way like I've tried to explain it to clients is visually is you know, it's a swimming pool and it's 10 feet, and you get to go up one foot a year. If you turn the water on really fast, you're gonna have to slow it down at some point. The last thing you want to do is overflow. What happens when it overflows? It's a big mess. And so visually they can kind of understand it, saying, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look at it each year and see where you're at because you end up with some of these clients, and we we'll look at it and say each year, hey, your benefits are here, but you know, the assets are significantly higher, and there's too much distance on that. And what I'm having happen right now is all of a sudden, you know, you'll have that conversation with the client in the first couple years. Now, all of a sudden, you're getting these people that are doing acquisitions, they're they're actually selling their practices and they're so far removed on that stuff that they don't have time to make up that difference. So we keep trying to say things like, and there, if you want, you know, this is kind of bringing you up to the level where you need to be. If you want to go beyond one year or so, let's have a conversation so you understand the risk. And and sometimes it is funny, I had one financial advisor got really mad at us, and they said, you know, that's not your place to recommend something. And they're like, that should be between the CPA and myself. Your job is to just do the work. And so I went, fine. I said, you know, but will you take then responsibility for the excise tax of you know, 50%? And then, you know, what he said, what, what, you know, and then all of a sudden my recommendation was kind of okay, at least to give them some parameters to think about. Um, yeah, so you know, it's interesting, like it's also educating financial advisors and clients too, because one of the things that's out there right now is actual rate of return plans, no risk or anything like that. And if you really understand all the workings of it, that's not true. There's always risk, right? And there's a lot of pieces that the IRS hasn't kind of talked about, but none of that stuff is really talked about. It's just this is the the newest thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Yeah, like the new shiny toy, the new buzzword, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Right. Right. And I think, you know, I think one thing that's important for financial advisors to remember is and clients and their CPAs, is we just want to be good partners, all of us. We have their best interest, you know, we're looking out for their best interests, and we just want to be good partners. So when we're suggesting things or consulting on things, whether it's the defined contribution side or the defined benefit side, we're just trying to be those good partners for them. And so hopefully, you know, if they remember that, we won't step on anybody's toes.

SPEAKER_05 33:46

Well, I think one of the things too with the financial advisors is where you find things more like that, where they're trying to be, you know, adamant about something, is somebody that does one or two plans that that's not the area they specialize in. They really specialize on individual wealth and not retirement plans. So it's really hard for them to make that flip over to what you're trying to do in the overall picture of things.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Yeah, agreed. Agreed. So hopefully we're educating some of them today. Both of you are very deeply engaged in the retirement community through organizations like ASPA, the American Society of Pension Professionals and Actuaries, and ASCA. How has that involvement shaped your perspective? And why do you believe professional association work is so important to closing the retirement gaps that we have?

SPEAKER_01 34:37

I will say I've met some very interesting people, like through my experiences with both of those organizations and learning what like financial advisors find important, or like learning, you know, what's going on in the industry. Like I feel like there's two parts of it, right, that are really important, the education, because everything is always changing. We always have to be up on what's going on and what's trending and you know, what other professionals are doing. And like like going to conferences and talking to people, you get like a feel for what other people are doing and you get to share ideas. And I really like that aspect of it. And that kind of leads to the networking part, right? Like it's so important to get out there and know other retirement professionals, not just other plan administrators, not just other actuaries. It's people who work with plan sponsors, it's people who work, you know, financial advisors, all sorts of different individuals are involved in the retirement community, not just us as TPAs and plan administrators. And I think those organizations do a really good job of educating on all levels and then allowing you a chance to go out and network and meet other individuals that brought in your personal network so that if you have a problem or a question, you can go out and be like, oh yeah, I met Shannon at this event or we were on this webcast together, and I'm gonna shoot her an email and like see what she thinks this weird thing happened. I think that those organizations are really important for that. Like I've only really just started dipping my toes in here, but I think it's gotten for me, it's given me new excitement for the industry, new excitement for education, uh with regards to the industry, and it's like opened up my networking like a hundredfold. I've met so many people over the last three years, it's been incredible.

SPEAKER_05 36:29

So that's what happened when when you're standing by the bar. Yeah. Um you know, I would have to say, like, you know, I started my involvement back when it was ASPA. And as it's evolved and brought in other spectors, you know, sections of the industry, it's just become like we're covering everything from every angle. And it's not like what's gonna work best for me from, you know, my, you know, in necessarily getting the client the biggest tax break or something like that. It's really what's going to really help with retirement across the board. I think a huge thing was like, you know, that's the name of your uh podcast, the gap, right, is the automatic enrollment and the you know things that have happened because of that. And if you were if you looked at it from just, you know, in your little kind of silo, you know, how difficult that may be to administer, you may not understand the full you know breadth of what it's doing. But I think being exposed to all those different areas of it from the plan sponsor angle, those type of things, the financial advisors and how they're doing the participant meetings, you see the importance of it and it changes your perspective.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Mm-hmm. Definitely. I definitely agree. I think that since becoming, you know, more involved in the American Retirement Association as a whole, and especially with the other system organizations like the advisors, the National Association of Plan Advisors and the Plan Sponsor Council of America, I think that it has become, it's helped me understand each of the different perspectives when looking out. But also like, I love being able to talk to like the financial advisors and find out what is important to you right now. You know, and all of them are a little bit different, right? Just like us. If you've met one TPA, you've met one TPA, right? I think if you've met one advisor, you've met one advisor because each of their practices are different. But to be able to talk to them and network with them and actually find out like what's important to you right now. What are you all focusing on when you're talking to plan sponsors? And then to be able to listen to plan sponsors at the annual conference when they do a session on what do plan sponsors really want? Because a lot of times it's not what we think they want. So it's really been eye-opening and educational, and it's helped me come back to my firm and serve my financial advisor partners even better. You know, because I know we all know, like we have for every client, we have we have two clients, right? We have the client and the financial advisor that we partner with on that client. And by becoming more involved with the ARA, I know it's helped me serve both my client and the their financial advisor better over the past several years.

SPEAKER_05 39:30

Yeah, I mean, I think the two is you didn't I didn't really understand the perspective that they see things at meeting with participants until I really started getting to talk to them. You know, because you often like I've often only see the the conversation when we're doing the planning part of it, but listening to how they're doing their participant meetings and some of those type of things and what they're hearing when their feet are on the ground, that's been interesting to me. I agree, yeah. You know, I served on you know with you, Shannon, on the Council for Women, and that was the first time I really got to deal with all four, you know, all the sister orgs at that time. And I think one of the things that has evolved of that is, you know, under NASA, where they deal with the school teachers and that a lot, where they're focusing on financial literacy for women, right? And it's becoming a bigger initiative of theirs. And to me, it is you meet somebody on the board or something, you know, from one of the other systems, and you see where their passion goes and what that drives for that. And then the leaders change the next year, and it kind of changes some different. You can kind of see how, like you were saying, everybody's coming from a very different perspective, and it's just, I think it's what makes the ARA so unique in how they approach stuff because they're constantly having changing, you know, changing thoughts coming in there.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Yeah, that's true. That's true. Beyond your day-to-day actuarial work, are there volunteer or mentoring experiences that have been especially meaningful for you in advancing retirement security or supporting the next generation of professionals?

SPEAKER_01 41:12

I will, I'm doing the mentoring program right now, and I love it. Like it's so interesting to me to talk to young, I'm I have two young women and just to see their experiences and what I can teach them. And really, like it's all about like what I'm learning from them at this point as well. I really am enjoying like spending a little bit of my time doing that and getting involved with the mentorship program. I think it's so important. I also try to be that person here for employees at work, but it's a different dynamic because I'm their boss. So I feel like I can have a different relationship with these women through the mentorship program than I do with maybe some of our plan administrators here. But it's been really exciting and I look forward. I'm gonna do it again after this year is up. Like I really enjoyed it this year. So looking forward to doing that again.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Lynn, how about you?

SPEAKER_05 42:03

I too am involved in the the mentoring program. My mentee actually asked me to stay on. So I actually am doing the second year with them. You know, it goes back to giving back, you know, and so I had people take me under my wings, and so I want to continue to do that to folks. The biggest thing to me is, you know, and like Erin said, I like to meet somebody, connect them with folks, and help them any way I can, like listen to what their needs, you know, what they're wanting to do, and how can I help make that happen? Because I've experienced different things and making sure it's a good fit. You know, it's one thing I think to suggest something to somebody, hey, this person might be good for this. But if you can kind of listen enough and focus in and it's a really good fit, you know, on what you're getting them involved in, they're you're gonna see their passion and then you're gonna see them grow.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Yeah, no, I agree. Oh, sorry, Shannon. I was no, go ahead. Lynn, you have such a special and unique skill for doing this, like spotting talent and putting people like where they need to be. I think it's just kind of amazing. I've just been so impressed. I know we've only known each other for a few years, but you just are really impressive to me in the way that you do that. And so now I'm trying to mirror you and trying to do that for some new young, like and up and comers. To your point, it's like a lot of people in our field are retiring now. And like all of these big names that you've heard, well, big retirement names, but like for us, it's a big deal, right? Like these people in retirement you've heard about for years and years and years are all retiring. And like we need to find like new blood to come in and breathe new life into the organizations and to be like to Lynn's point, find what they're passionate about and place them in something that they're passionate about. I think it's so important. It will be very beneficial to all of the organiz, you know, the ARA in the long run is to get more people in. And excited about, you know, retirement.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Yeah, for sure. We have got to get more young people involved in our industry. It's, I think the challenge is so many young people don't even know that our industry exists, you know, much less how do they get involved? I mean, obviously, some of the colleges have like degrees where you can become a financial advisor as soon as you graduate. So, but I think even the colleges and universities that have that degree program aren't focused like on retirement plans. And we've got to get some more like, or accounting, you know, accounting degrees. I've got my accounting degree and I we barely touched on retirement plans. And it definitely wasn't 401k plans, you know. It was a little bit of profit sharing and some defined benefit, and that was it. And it was maybe one chapter. So we definitely need to have more young people involved in our industry. And we definitely are gonna have to mentor them and teach them to get them to be passionate to stay in the industry because it's a hard industry to work in, period. Like TPAs are really stressed out, like nine months out of a year, trying to get their jobs done and do all the consulting work. It can be a hard, it can be stressful, but it is also so rewarding that it can be amazing. And you know, a lot of financial advisors, I think, stay away from our industry because they don't feel confident enough to talk about it. And maybe they haven't met a good TPA partner yet to go with them and talk about it for them while still making them look really good for bringing the team together and not having to be an expert in everything, but bringing a team of experts together to help their clients.

SPEAKER_05 45:45

So well, and I think part of it too is taking it, you know, taking like what going back to a defined benefit plan. What can I take who I'm talking to? What can I take that you know and kind of apply it? Right. So a financial advisor, really, we're doing the same thing is time value of money, what you do. We're funding, like Aaron said, we're we're looking for something at retirement. So the time value of money is what makes that work, right? And that and and think about I'm talking to, you know, even on testing things where you start getting into things, going to, you know, defined contribution for a 1k administrators and turning it into the type of testing that they know already. You know, it's funny because sometimes I think some some actuaries want it to seem like it's some big mystery, and it's really not a big mystery. You know, it's just knowing what the end game is and how you're getting there. And the more I think we can get people comfortable talking about that, the more I think we'll have people adopting things. Because the nice thing with cash balance plans is the mysteries that happen with traditional plans went away when you could start using cash balance plans. And unfortunately, I think sometimes we still try and make it like it's some huge mystery, you know, so that maybe we look smarter.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

I'm laughing. I'm laughing, Lynn, because you know, Allison, my practice manager, has been with me for it will be 18 years and just a couple months. Yeah, I know that surprises you, by the way. But if you say cash balance plan or defined benefit plan to her, she would rather crawl under her desk and hide than have you talk to her about defined benefit plans because she can't she does not understand them. And when we were talking about it in a team meeting a couple of weeks ago, henna, you know, who's really who's also on my team and really bright, she looked at me and she goes, I don't know what the magic is, but that math is not real. That is not real math. She's like, there's some kind of magic going on behind the green curtain. I don't know what it is. And I was like, henna, I am right with you. Lynn has tried to teach me. I don't understand it, but you know, that's why Erin and I are doing a session at Aspet Annual. So that so we can look behind the green curtain and see what the magic is.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

We're gonna show the magic, we're gonna show how the magic happens. That's what's gonna happen. Yeah, I think that if you can take, I know people get intimidated as soon as you throw out define benefit, as soon as you throw out cash balance plans. I can see people, I just see like the complete shutdown that happens. And to Lynn's point, like the cash balance plans now look and feel so much like you're true, like what you would look and see on a 401k plan where you have your beginning balance and you have your contribution credit and your interest credit and an ending balance. Like it really is less scary than it looks or feels like. And I think if we can get past everyone's, I don't want to say prejudice against it, but there can be like a connotation with the defined benefit or a cash balance. It's too complicated. I don't want to get into that. Like, I don't want that kind of commitment. But really, these plans do make a lot of sense for small employers, especially when you couple it with a 401k plan that they probably already have. They can boost their retirement savings, they can increase the amount of contributions and bonuses like they're giving to their staff via plan contributions. It really could be a win-win in a lot of cases if we could just get past like everyone's like freak out of a DB or a cash balance plan. Like if they can just get past it and have the right partner that's explaining it to them, bringing in their financial advisors, their CPAs, and working as like the dream team on this, if you have those right pieces in place, it could be really beneficial for you.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

Well, and I think all of the job markets nowadays are competitive, right? Across every industry. And so if you have a cash balance plan as a benefit for your employees and somebody's trying to write recruit them away from you, in all likelihood, there's not going to be a cash balance plan at the place that's trying to recruit them. So if we can spend some times too educating our employees and our clients' employees, you know, employees in general on what a huge benefit a cash balance plan is and how lucky they are to have one, I think that that helps with retention as well.

SPEAKER_05 50:17

100%. Overall, the cost of benefits that employers provide, right? That people don't understand. But I I agree. I mean, you think you know someone implements the cash balance plan, you're typically looking at anywhere from a five to ten percent contribution for each employee here, and you know, that can add up quickly. Right. If as long as you keep it in, you know, in a tax-deferred vehicle.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Yeah. And it can be life-changing really for them, you know, but first they have to understand it. So that's another thing that I would encourage, you know, we encourage our clients to do is make sure that your employees understand the benefits that you're giving them and make sure they understand how rare it is, you know, that not every single person has this, that this is something special that you're doing for them. So if each of you could leave our listeners with one takeaway about the role of a defined benefit and cash balance plan in strengthening retirement security, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 51:22

I love that our big, our long silences. You can tell that we want to be thoughtful about what we're saying here, Shannon. I mean, I guess to answer your question and maybe doing it like badly, is these plans do have some hidden benefits that I don't think people realize. And by like even considering them in addition to some kind of 401k situation that you already have going, you can give a bigger benefit to yourself and a bigger benefit to your employees. And it becomes, I lost my train of thought. I'm so sorry, Shannon. This is you're fine. We're gonna like, we're gonna blame out at the end here. I just think that to consider a cash balance plan is something that should not be overlooked because there are a lot of benefits for the employer and also for the employees. Maybe that's better said that way. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 52:19

Yeah, I would agree. I think often you hear that, you know, just one piece of it being it's just a tax, you know, savings. And I think it's bigger than that. It really does uh promote larger benefits for the staff that are needed for the entire thing to work. Uh and so there are benefits that maybe the the quant, you know, the the plan sponsor would give them, but maybe it, you know, they're kind of forcing them on that side. So it is giving more on that side, you know, it's in a guaranteed as opposed to just doing like a safe harbor match where you have to contribute some and they have to contribute some. It's putting it in that regardless of what you're the employees doing, you're gonna give a contribution and then something on top of that. So I do think that it does, you know, promote that type of, you know, the an additional benefit that maybe wouldn't be there for staff. And I'm starting to see some clients actually looking at things when they're trying to figure out how they're going to do things. And you know, they're looking at it saying, like, hey, if I if for this all to work, I have to give some extra to my lower paid individuals. That's if I have to give some extra, that's where I want to give them to. I want to help them save more. Uh, you know, the people that I'm paying in mid, you know, my mid-tier managers and that, they can afford to put some of their own, you know, fund their own retirement. But these are the individuals I want to make sure that I take care of. And the other piece too is now with long-term part-time, you know, we're seeing a very different workforce, right? And I look at some of that and I think that even some of those, you know, to me is if you're going to bring them in the plan, like provide a benefit, you know, is if they've been with you for a long time, they're a valued employee. And rather looking at things and saying, how do I carve out these things? How do I actually look at this plan and make it meaningful and make sure I'm communicating it that way? And I think part of that burden falls on us as consultants to make sure clients understand that.

SPEAKER_02 54:31

I agree. I agree. Well, I want to thank both of you so much for sharing your insight with us and for all the work you're doing to help working Americans close the gaps in their savings. For anyone who wants to learn more about the work that Lynn and Erin do every day, we will have their contact information in the show notes. If you're listening to this podcast and you believe that you have an innovative approach to closing the gaps in retirement savings for Americans and you would like to share your ideas, please let me know. My contact information is in the show notes as well. Thank you for joining us on The Gap. Please join us next time.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Thank you for listening to The Gap. Be sure to check out the show notes for important links, retirement plan resources, and more at TryStarPension.com. While you're there, sign up for our information tax newsletter. And if you enjoy the conversation, follow our podcast, share it, and tell a friend about it. And most importantly, rate and review it on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for listening.