Petros Koumantaros: Empowering Financial Futures Through Policy Education and Workplace Innovation

You don’t need to be a finance expert to realize the stakes—your future depends on it.

In this compelling episode, we speak with Petros Koumantaros, Managing Director & CEO of Spectrum Pension Consultants, Co-Founder of the fintech company GROUPIRA, Financial Consultant at intellicents, volunteer financial literacy instructor at St. Joseph School, and a governing board member of Washington Saves. He also co-founded the Pano Koumantaros Cancer Research Fund, raising over $1.7 million in honor of his late father to support cancer research, care, and treatment. With over $9.2 billion in retirement assets under advisement and a hands-on approach to teaching the next generation, Petros is uniquely positioned at the intersection of billion-dollar policy advocacy and grassroots financial education.

Whether you're trying to improve retirement outcomes at work, teach your kids about money, or simply want more control over your financial future, this conversation will challenge the way you think. You’ll leave feeling inspired, empowered, and more informed about the systems that shape your savings, your security, and your legacy.

In this episode, Shannon and Petros Koumantaros discuss:

• The role of personal financial literacy in shaping long-term financial security
• Systemic challenges and solutions for improving retirement plan access
• The intersection of public policy, business, and advocacy in retirement savings
• Building a values-based legacy through education and professional service

Key Takeaways:

• Automated payroll deduction through workplace-based retirement plans significantly improves savings behavior, making it far more effective than voluntary, individual retirement account setup, especially for workers in underserved or small business environments.
• Financial literacy education, when made relatable and free from jargon, empowers even middle school students to grasp essential concepts like compound interest, budgeting, debt, and investing, demonstrating that early intervention can shape lifelong financial behaviors.
• The disparity in retirement plan access—88% among large employers versus just 58% among small employers—highlights a systemic gap that public programs like Washington Saves are attempting to close through mandatory state-sponsored auto-IRA programs.
• The student debt crisis, with average debt hovering around $40,000, compounds financial inequality by delaying asset accumulation and reducing opportunities for early investing, especially when basic financial education is missing from the school system.

"Retirement investing, specifically, is really not well-suited for speculation. We're not here to encourage people to be day traders. We're encouraging people to accumulate and save in a disciplined way." — Petros Koumantaros

Connect with Petros Koumantaros: 

Website: https://petros.us/

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/petrosk

Connect with Shannon:

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the gap, a podcast designed exclusively for financial advisors and employers seeking to enhance their retirement plan offerings and bridge the gap in America's retirement security. We talk to change makers and dive into innovative strategies, compliance updates, and best practices to help you provide top-notch retirement solutions, stay ahead of the future, and ensure a secure financial future for all Americans. Here's your host, Shannon Edwards.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Hello, I am Shannon Edwards, your host and owner of Tri-Star Content Consulting. I would like to welcome all listeners to our podcast with a special welcome to those of you listening for the first time. I started this podcast because I have a passion for helping Americans achieve a dignified retirement. By sharing innovative ideas, this podcast is designed to help close the gaps that America has in retirement savings and coverage. By doing so, we can improve the lives of working Americans. Today's guest is someone who has dedicated his career and much of his personal time to doing exactly that. We're thrilled to welcome Petros Comantros, managing director and CEO of Spectrum Pension Consultants, a firm that serves over 2,000 retirement plans and more than 100,000 participants nationwide. Petros is a nationally recognized leader in the retirement plan space and a member of the Forbes Finance Council. Petros has testified for the U.S. Senate Help Committee and has been appointed to the Washington Saves Governing Board, helping to expand access to retirement plans for workers who don't currently have one. But what truly sets Petros apart is his commitment to service. Known in Seattle classrooms as Mr. 401k, he teaches financial literacy to high school students, breaking down complex topics like budgeting, taxes, and compound interest into lessons that stick with young people for life. His passion for education and advocacy is inspiring, and his approach is both practical and innovative. In today's conversation, we'll explore how Petros is using business, policy, and grassroots education to help close the gap and what all of us in the retirement industry can learn from his approach. Let's dive in. Welcome, Petros.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Thank you, Shannon, for having me. Good God, that introduction was incredibly flattering.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Well, you deserve it. I have been looking forward to having you on this from the first time I heard about your Mr. 401k classes. So we're going to dive in. I want to start with your personal journey first, though. Your personal journey into retirement service is a compelling one. What led you into this industry?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Uh so years ago, I was told uh by uh another industry professional, you're either born into this industry or you stumble into this industry. And uh to a great extent, I was born into it. Uh my father, Pano Kumantros, is an immigrant uh to the United States uh who came from Greece in 1970, and uh he launched his career in the insurance world. Uh fast forward a few years, Arissa was signed into law, and insurance companies across the country told their reps, uh, go out, look at this new piece of legislation, and find a way to make a buck on it for us. And in those days, obviously, information being less ubiquitous than it is today, he had to dive in and do the research a little bit more um manually than uh the tools that we have access to now. But suffice it to say, he did and saw an opportunity. He said, Maybe there's something here uh for me. And uh he started what became our core business, Spectrum Pension Consultants. He started that as a sole proprietorship in 1975. We incorporated under the name Spectrum Pension Consultants in 78. And, you know, the rest is uh is history. That firm grew steadily over the years. Uh, when my brother Giannis Kumatros, who's also in the business with me and I were young, uh, topics about savings, investments, retirement planning were routine among our family kitchen table. Uh, and I view that as a huge asset in my personal journey and understanding of money, finance, and the importance of savings. I eventually launched my career, got an undergraduate degree from the University of Washington, and began uh my career in the technology sector. I was incredibly passionate about technology and really saw a great opportunity after undergrad to pursue that dream. Uh, and I had a wonderful career starting out. Tragically, though, our father got sick with bladder cancer in 2005 and uh and passed away that December. Uh, when he was sick, I made the decision to leave my career at that point and come into Spectrum Pension Consultants. Uh, my mother, who was an educator herself in her former life as uh an algebra teacher, joined my father in 1981 and had been there for a very long time. My brother Giannis was uh at Spectrum Pension Consultants out of undergrad. And again, I joined the firm officially in a full-time capacity there in 2005. At the time, we were hoping that our father would have beaten it, but uh fate didn't have that in store for us. So it was it was a difficult experience, certainly. We were far younger than any person should be to be thrust into that capacity, Shannon. But uh, what I've learned just through my interactions with you, with other industry professionals, everyone has their own unique origin stories in this industry. And the personal challenges that we were forced to overcome, they're not isolated to just our own experience. There's a great many professionals in our space uh and in other disciplines as well that have had to overcome significant challenges to get to where they are. Uh so I look back on it naturally every day. I wish my father was still here with us. He's got grandchildren now. I would love for him to be able to engage and interact with them. But that said, that uh that experience, tragic though it was, uh, was a really unique way to be introduced into business leadership. And we learned a lot through it and uh and were forced to because of the circumstances.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Right. Yeah. And you guys have done incredibly with it. I mean, you've just taken it and run and built such a successful practice. So, and you know, I mean, I sort of had the same thing. My dad was a CPA, so I grew up, you know, it basically getting as well, yeah. Yeah, in an accounting firm, right? And so when I was out of school on a day off, instead of, you know, getting a babysitter, I would go work at my dad's office filing billing and stuff. So I wanted to be an artist when I went to college, and my dad said you have to get a degree that's actually going to pay the bills.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Tell me you're pursuing at least your interest in art and that dream, at least on the side in some fashion.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

No, not anymore. I have not had the time, but I'm pursuing my love of golf now. So anyway, I did I got my accounting degree and we got a um 3,500 life balance forward quarterly vow participant directed 401k plan. And that's what I kept my teeth on. And I just, you know, went from there. So I was kind of thrust into it too. And then all of a sudden the manager of our department quit and they made me manager with like no leadership skills. I was 21 years old and a manager of people and no management classes. So it was, I had hoped I, you know, you mentioned the conversations you all had at the dinner table because I was the same way. Like I would pound it into my kids' head. You know, here's your $5 allowance, and you have to put a dollar in college savings, a dollar to go to church, and you can have $3 to spend. And my kids called it taxation without representation until yeah, until they got to like senior year in high school and they took personal finance and they're like, hey, that 401k money you're taking out of my paycheck at the office, that's Roth, right? And I was like, Oh, yes, they have been listening. Unfortunately, none of them want to come into my business though. So, oh well, win some, lose some.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

They have a good foundation, it sounds like though, Shannon. And that's a wonderful thing. Certainly, in my experience, uh, it's interesting interacting with students, with young people when it comes to money, financial education. And certainly those students that have had some discussions in their own household with their parents, family members, friends, uh, they definitely it's obvious who has a bit of a better footing on these topics. And it's really tragic that we don't have more expansive educational programs in personal finance for young people. I've always said that money is a tool that every person uses every day of their life, uh, from the moment they launch until the moment they pass on. It doesn't matter what job you pursue, what professional discipline you're in. The fact is you're gonna use money, you're gonna be a consumer, you're going to be a saver, you're going to have access to capital and debt to underwrite certain parts of your life, and yet we don't have this as a foundational component in most educational systems across the country. Why?

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Um, I agree. And we're gonna do a deep dive on that in just a few minutes. Were there any pivotal moments or mentors early in your career that significantly shaped your path?

SPEAKER_02 8:48

There were, because I was relatively young in my own career when I came into Spectrum Pension Consultants, there were a number of people in the industry that I identified and did very much look up to. It wasn't a formalized mentor-mentee relationship. We didn't codify it in that way. But we were, both my brother and I, quite young uh to be in the roles that we were in. So we took it upon ourselves to try to get out there and meet different industry professionals. So we routinely attended different industry conferences, uh different uh seminars, events. And again, it was part of building out our own professional network because we hadn't in any fashion at that point. The relationships that our firm had with others were really relationships that my father had cultivated. Even though my mother was in the business, she was much more focused on the day-to-day administrative work, uh, the financial reconciliation, uh, preparation of compliance deliverables for clients and the like. So there wasn't as much industry-based networking for her as there was with my father. So it was important for Giannis and me to get out there and interact with other industry professionals. Uh, and what we identified was really successful organizations that, you know, we wanted to emulate. And I remember in some of the discussions that we would have uh in those earlier days, it was wouldn't it be great if one of these days Spectrum could look like fill in the blank? And there was a few industry professionals out there that I really admired, some of whom actually I have a working relationship with today. Brad Ahrens is an example with at the time ABG Minnesota was one such person, uh had a really wonderful organization. It's since transacted the administration and record keeping business over to another entity, but they've continued with the financial consulting arm under the IntelliSense brand. Brad, his leadership team, uh his brother Grant, who interestingly enough also works in the business with him, have you know a bit of a similar origin story insofar as it's a family business. And again, that was one organization that I had discussed internally. Wouldn't it be great if one of these days we looked like, you know, ABG Minnesota? Sentinel Benefits, which at the time was led by John Carnivale, who tragically also passed away far too young, his organization as well, we had a chance to interact through some technology advisory boards that we had served on. And I remember coming back from some of those meetings and saying the same thing. Wouldn't it be great if one of these days we looked a bit like sentinel benefits in the future and to emulate what's made them successful? So, in any event, even though we didn't codify formal mentor-mentee relationships with any of those individuals, there were a number, and there were just two examples, there were a number over the years that of people that I looked to that had built successful practices, businesses, organizations in their own right, uh, that really embodied the right kind of leadership skills to assemble a great team. And uh, we recognize that it's not just one leader acting alone. It's a group of leaders often who are assembling the right team of professionals, inspiring the right vision, and uh and operating these successful organizations that matter. And, you know, we learned a lot just through those interactions over the years, and I'm incredibly happy that you know we had that part of our experience. I know full well, Shannon, we wouldn't have the type of businesses that we have today, but for some of that networking work early on and for those relationships that we've cultivated with other high-quality industry professionals.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, obviously I've had the same experience. I don't know about you, but I find our industry to be extremely unique. Very in everyone's willingness to collaborate and share. I in going to conferences and in meeting people, and we all collaborate and share to solve problems like retirement savings and things like that, versus competing with each other and keeping secrets from each other or trying to beat each other out of, you know, this job or that job. And I think we're extremely unique in that how good everybody is and how much everybody else in the industry wants everybody else to succeed. So that as a whole, the retirement industry succeeds. So it's really that's one of my joys of working in this industry, is just how wonderful the people I work with throughout the country are, even though they can be seen as my competitor, we're not competing. We're not, we're all working for the same goal.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

I completely agree. That and that is one of the wonderful things is that willingness to share. I see it as well with uh with many of the professionals that we interact with. Uh and that is unique, I think, in in our industry. You tend not to see, even in in broader based financial services, you tend not to see that level of collaboration as you do within our sector of it, uh, within retirement services specifically.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Yeah, I think it's it's pretty magical, if you ask me. So what continues to fuel your passion for helping Americans retire with dignity?

SPEAKER_02 13:44

To be honest, it's just the drive to help people live life on their terms. You know, one of the things that I've observed there is one universally scarce resource, Shannon, which is our time. Our time, our life, uh it's not predetermined, but it is finite. So all of us have an opportunity to live the life that we've got. And there's a number of things as part of that journey that is uh that may arise that's unexpected. And we saw some of this in our own family with my father's tragic passing from bladder cancer. There are things that come up that are unexpected that you can't control, but there's also a great number of things that you can control. To a great extent, you can control what you consume, both in terms of nutrition, but also in terms of managing a budget and personal finances, certainly at least the discretionary side of things. You can control your savings activities to a great extent. You can control what educational pursuits and disciplines you choose to go after. Uh to a great extent, you can have some influence and control your career path, which has an impact naturally on your income for your household and the like. You could control uh who you choose to spend the rest of your life with. Those are things that, broadly speaking, are within uh our realm of control. And uh, you know, around it all, money and personal finances are fundamental to that. Uh money is there so that uh we can provide consumption for the goods, the services, the assets that we need both today but also in the future. And that future money is so important because of the unexpected, because our time is scarce, uh, because we don't know what tomorrow is going to have in store for us. We need to have some savings to provide for and underwrite the cost of uh that future consumption. Uh we don't know what our health will be in the future, right? So having some savings for that is paramount. Uh we don't know if we'll be able to continue working well into our elderly years. So having some savings and investment to underwrite our life at that future point is paramount. Uh and this is something that's not unique to just you or me or or a subset of people. This is a universal need. The need to consume and spend is as fundamental to our survival as the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the food that we consume every single day. And the reason for that is because we rely on other humans for our survival. We've specialized in different disciplines. I don't build my own house, right? I don't grow my own produce in my garden. I mean, I could to a limited extent, but not enough to satisfy my household's consumption. I rely on other people for those goods, for those services. Uh, and that's a wonderful thing because that specialization enables us to pursue things that are more interesting to us. Again, because time is scarce. So it's that passion to help others live a life on their own terms, when they're making decisions and choices about how they consume, how they spend, what kind of a life they want to live. It's exciting to be part of that process with them to help support people on their own personal journeys. You know, I think a lot of times, and I saw this early on in our profession, sometimes we get mired into the detailed nuances of compliance and government reporting, and it is critical. That is as foundational to a retirement benefit plan as it is, right? Right. But I try to zoom out and I encourage my colleagues to do the same. Zoom out. What are we doing here? It's much more than a 5,500. It's much more than a compliance deliverable or a management report. It's about helping people to accumulate and save towards a secure and dignified financial future so they can live a life on their own terms. My God, what is more noble than that? Ours is among the most noble professions out there because of what we do, how we help people. How do you get excited about that?

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Oh no, I totally agree. That Petrus is what keeps me driving up to work every day, parking my car, and getting out of my car to walk into my office happy and excited about work. You know, my husband and I were talking one time and he said something about 401k, you know, my business and blah, blah, blah. And I said, You don't understand. We change lives, we save lives every day. And he looked at me and he goes, Shannon, you're not a heart surgeon. And I said, I know I'm not. But we change lives every day. And that's why I love what I do. And that's why I pour my, you know, my work outside of my job is also pouring back into this industry for my volunteer work. And that's why, because we have an incredible job that we get to do that's fun and exciting, and it truly makes a difference. So I love your passion. I really do. Because I I mirror your passion. And it's easy to have it, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:40

It is zoom out. You know, look at that. How can you not, as a retirement services professional, be excited about the work that we do? Like I said, it's inspiring.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

I totally agree. We go, I have a group of girlfriends all in this industry, and we go on a girls' trip every year, and we sit around, we do, we sit on the beach talking about our jobs and work and this industry. And people are like, that is so geeky. And I'm like, but it's so great, and we have so much fun. So yeah, no, it's awesome. Okay, you have built a successful firm that serves over a hundred thousand retirement plan participants. What accomplishments are you most proud of in your professional journey?

SPEAKER_02 19:21

I would probably say it's getting to this point. Uh, and mind you, there's a lot of work that we have still to do, and I'm excited of what's to come here over the next, hopefully, God willing, few decades. But it was a challenge uh to get to this point. And make no mistake, Shannon, it wasn't me, or I should say it wasn't just me. We've got a wonderful team, a wonderful leadership team, a wonderful management team. We have wonderful consultants and administrators within our family of companies uh that have driven the success and the results uh that we experience today. So this is not, by any stretch of the imagination, me alone or my brother Giannis alone. No, it's it is a very much a collaborative and team effort. The journey was challenging because again, in 2005, now you know, 20 years ago, when Pawno Kumantros, our father, got sick and tragically passed away. I mentioned that a lot of the external networking was his that he had done, but it was also the client relationships, the relationships with centers of influence. And it, you know, at that point, it wasn't as if people were just going to transition business to another firm. You know, to be blunt, the optics of that would look pretty bad given the circumstances. But many did after a period of time. Uh, because again, the relationship wasn't with Giannis, it wasn't with me, it was with my father. Uh in fact, many of those longer-term clients, I'm not ashamed to admit, they knew me when I was in diapers.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Truly, because my father started this business back in the 70s. I literally was born into the business after the business itself had already originated. So some of our longer-term earlier clients, you know, knew me as an infant. And now that infant is helping them with their company retirement, with our company's retirement plan.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

So, you know, again, it wasn't as if everyone chose to do that, but there was enough that did where it had an impact on our business. You compound that with the great financial crisis that occurred in 2008 and into 2009, markets drawing down as they did. Uh, we had a really difficult experience there for a period of time. Going through it certainly enabled us to learn a great deal and we managed to survive. And on the other side, we were able, thankfully, to get into expansion mode yet again, but it took tremendous effort. And again, I cannot express my gratitude enough to the wonderful colleagues that we've got who were part of that journey with us because it really is a testament to their work, to their leadership for sticking things out, for doing great work with our clients. And then, you know, for us organizing around the right set of functions, kind of getting the recipe so. To speak, to use a cooking metaphor, to getting the recipe right and then executing upon that recipe. It was a really significant effort, but we got there. And, you know, in the years since, we've made some strategic acquisitions that have brought additional businesses into what we uh colloquially refer to as the spectrum family of companies. Today we deliver services on a national uh level uh across uh almost every single state of jurisdiction. We have darn near 75 staff members across that whole family of companies. We're in the IRA services and technology space, we're in the retirement platform space, the compliance administration space, and again, just have this incredible team uh that's been part of that journey with us. But it was a question of getting the recipe right. And again, part of that was looking at what others did well, not replicating it perfectly, but adapting it to our approach, our model, uh, and then establishing internally the right cultural fit for our organization with the right vision, and then getting our colleagues bought in. And thankfully for us, Shannon, many chose to buy into the approach that we had. And again, we're thrilled today with the results, but we certainly are looking forward to what's still to come from here.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Yeah, you guys have done an amazing job. And I've known both you and your brother for a long time, and it's been really awesome to watch you all grow that business and get into new lines of business. I often watch both of you, and I'm like, God, I wish I had that kind of foresight and creativity. And then then I think But you do.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

You have a passion for art. Don't say that you're not naturally creative. Come on.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Well, you haven't seen my art. Okay. So we'll I'll show you sometime.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

I'd love to see it, actually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

I'll show you sometime. You have been recognized as a Forbes Finance Council member. Tell us more about that. What does that mean? What does it involve?

SPEAKER_02 23:48

So Forbes Finance Council are uh is a cohort or a group of industry professionals, thought leaders that um that have an opportunity to collaborate, network with one another, learn from one another, but also to publish on topics that are of particular passion for them. And really what uh what inspired me there was some of the work that I was doing around financial education, making sure that uh that I was making and advocating for a good case for financial education uh to be more broadly uh accessible. So it really was uh focused around some of that advocacy work that was just so important to me. It's a wonderful group of uh of financial professionals and again, thought leaders across different financial disciplines. My focus there really is around financial education and making sure that we're discussing the importance of it, but also sharing top-of-mind topics that I run into, which may be value-added for others to consume, uh, content they may find uh particularly useful or helpful. And uh there's a mechanism through the Forbes Finance Council to get that information published through uh uh articles available on Forbes.com.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Awesome. You've testified before the U.S. Senate Help Committee. What was that experience like? And what did you testify about?

SPEAKER_02 24:59

So this was it was a wonderful experience uh to do so. And the testimony was really in support of legislation that ultimately got packaged into secured uh 2.0. Uh so uh this was a few years ago. Advocacy in not just financial education, but retirement policies, uh, I learned is really important to the work that we do. There's the CEO of the American Retirement Association, Brian Graf, I've developed a good relationship with over the years. And I remember at an industry event, Brian had said that you either, with respect to our industry, have a seat at the table, or you're going to be served on the table. And the point that he made hit home, which is that our profession to a great extent is a byproduct of public policies. Uh the retirement plan legislation that spurned this industry back in the 70s, ERISA, is what allows retirement services professionals to really do the work that they do, at least to a great extent. Naturally, there'd be needs for savings and different types of investment vehicles that support long-term uh financial growth towards retirement. But the tax incentives that helps to encourage it. Uh, the compliance requirements to make sure that the benefits that are provided are broadly uniform and non-discriminatory help to start our profession and grow our profession over the years. So the point is simply if you're not part of that process to help influence and shape public policy, you run the risk that policymakers may change the very laws that are beneficial to retirement savers. And that, of course, would have an adverse impact on our profession. We saw some of that type of work that had a negative impact with legislation that was enacted in the 80s and uh and 90s. So, in any event, uh being at the forefront of some of that public policy advocacy for retirement legislation or favorable retirement legislation was important to me. Uh perhaps it's how I'm wired, but I actually rather enjoy how the proverbial sausage in Washington, D.C. is made. Most people that I've run into in our space tend not to, uh, but I actually do. And it's wonderful to talk about the great work. And again, it's an easy conversation to have when you zoom out because ours is a noble profession. Ours does support people to accumulate and save to a secure and dignified financial future. Going to Washington, D.C. and talking about the merits of what we do as retirement services professionals and how it impacts our clients and the people in our communities. Policymakers enjoy hearing that. They love hearing from their constituents and they love hearing from constituents who are touching the lives of others in their communities. So that makes it really easy. Testifying in front of the Senate Health Committee, that was one of the committees that has jurisdiction over uh retirement legislation, specifically the ERISA components of uh retirement legislation. Senator Patty Murray from Washington State, which is uh my home state, at the time was chair of that committee. And I had built a relationship with her staff members on retirement plan policies over the years. And it was, again, getting in touch with those people routinely when new policies were being considered, the impact of policy changes, what it would mean for not just our business, but in a broader sense, other businesses like look that look like ours throughout the industry, and of course, the benefits of policy changes for planned participants. And I was honored to be invited to testify in front of the Senate Health Committee. It was a tremendous honor and just a wonderful experience to prepare some testimony in support of legislation that ultimately did get ratified and signed into law.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Yeah. Well, I know the advocacy work that you and I both get to do with the American Retirement Association, that is really one of my favorite volunteer jobs that I have. I mean, I have developed a passion for that. And the American Retirement Association does an amazing job advocating for retirement plan legislation that makes sense and is logical and bipartisan. So I do, I love that work. And I I'm so glad that we have the opportunity to do that. It's one of the few things that is bipartisan in DC. Exactly. Very few things, but it is. Yep. So you now serve on the Washington Saves governing board. Tell us about that experience. What does the board do? What are your responsibilities when it comes to the board?

SPEAKER_02 29:27

So coverage, as no doubt you're well aware, um, through your own advocacy work in our space, um, is a big issue still in the small employer uh market. Uh when I was preparing for my testimony in DC for the uh the Senate Help Committee, some of the research that I had done just in preparation for that experience really highlighted the issues around retirement plan coverage. But this is not a big employer issue. It's really a small employer issue. Coverage among large employers is great. Uh data suggests about 88% of workers at large employers have retirement plan coverage through their organizations, which is wonderful. Uh, but unfortunately, among small employers, micro-size employers, small, closely held companies, uh, it drops down to 58% coverage. So that's an issue because right now, not quite half, but approximately half of working Americans are employed by small employers. And that's an issue when you have this significant disparity in coverage between big business and small business. So, what Washington State, together with many states across the country, have done is to enact basically auto-IRA legislation or automatic retirement plan legislation. Uh, and they take different forms, but uh in a nutshell for these pieces of legislation, it will compel, in certain instances, employers to offer retirement benefits or to opt into a state-run alternative. Uh, and that state-run alternative basically will expand coverage almost universally to all workers within that state of jurisdiction. Now, again, each state is taking a different approach. So it's not as if every state is going to be offering a state-sponsored program, but that is what Washington state has done. Uh, so Governor Jay Insley uh appointed me to the Washington Saves governing board. Uh, there is a group of us, industry professionals in different uh capacities, together with public policymakers that serve on that board. And you could think of this metaphorically very much as that board being uh like the fiduciaries responsible for a private sector retirement plan. Metaphorically, it's very, very similar. Uh now the program is just in its infancy. It's still being shaped right now, and it's scheduled to launch in January of 27. So the work right now is really around development of this program, communications with key stakeholders, making sure that employers understand what the requirements are going to be for them and their workforces because it does have an impact on every or it will have an impact on virtually every Washington state uh employer organization. So I'm excited. I think it's a wonderful way to expand coverage, particularly among uh groups of people who desperately need it most, which of course is predominantly small employers.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah, absolutely. No, I think it's really important. And you know, honestly, in all the states that have passed this so far, we've actually seen growth in the private retirement system. Yes. Um, so either way, we're we are solving for coverage gaps. And I think that's the most important thing. So it is exciting.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

It is. And we know from our advocacy work too, merely making different savings and investment vehicles available. And Lord knows in the United States, we have many options as consumers available to us to accumulate and save. But the reality is, and the data confirms this, people tend not to do it, or at least tend not to do it to the degree they need to if it's outside of the workplace. Yeah. The mechanics of these automated savings programs where it's just done through payroll deduct, it is simple and it is easy from an employee's perspective. And for that worker to have that vehicle where a lot of the mechanics are done for them, again, through the convenience of payroll deduct, leads to much better retirement outcomes than if they were to try to do this uh and set up some type of a vehicle on their own individually. So it's really the workplace that needs to be the driver for uh for these retirement programs if we want results in terms of accumulation and savings. So that's why it's so important that this be done inside of a workplace to get the results we seek.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Totally agree. Totally agree. Okay, you have become known as Mr. 401k in Seattle area classrooms. What inspired you to start teaching financial literacy to students and how has that experience shaped your perspective on the retirement readiness crisis?

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Uh years ago, again, actually it was in in preparation for the testimony to the Senate Help Committee. As I was preparing for that, uh, I saw just how pervasive the student loan crisis had become. And it is a huge issue. $1.7 uh trillion dollars in student loan debt. The average amount of debt for young people that complete a four-year degree is around $40,000. That's significant and meaningful. And then there's outlayers that have considerably more debt than that. And knowing what we know in the financial services space, we know that there is a time value of money component that is so critical and fundamental towards long-term accumulation when you're investing. But we also know that it cuts against you if you are forced to service substantial debt, particularly substantial debt at a young age, because there's opportunity costs. The $300 per month that you're sending to retire student loan debt is $300 per month that can't go into an investment account to benefit your future, to benefit your family's future. And tragically, when you just look at the math, you're an accounting professional yourself. You know it. You're effectively at negative equity when you enter the workforce. If you have substantial student loan debt, unless you have some other assets of your own, effectively, at least on paper, you are financially bankrupt. You have negative real equity. That's a tragedy. Now, I don't from a public policy perspective, I don't know that student loan debt forgiveness is the right answer. I think there are things that can be done to perhaps make student loan debt easier to discharge in bankruptcy, uh, subject to certain requirements, of course, uh in terms of students or former students being good on uh student loan payments for a period of time. But uh one thing I can say unequivocally is we must as a society do a better job at teaching young people about money. It is shameful that in our country you can get a credit card before you understand the mechanics of debt. It is shameful in our country that we encourage a lifestyle of consumption before we encourage the benefits of saving and investing. Young people are like sponges, and I've seen this through my interactions with young people in the classroom. They get it, especially if the content, the curriculum is designed in a way to make it approachable. And the wonderful thing with advances in technology today, we can take rather complex topics and make that topic more approachable to all ranges of demographics, including young people. Uh my focus is on middle school students. I've also helped some high school students too when they were looking at uh making decisions around which colleges to pursue and how best to finance that education. But these young people, they get it if instructors do a good job of making the curriculum approachable. And thankfully, there are ways to do so now through advances in technology. Generative AI makes it very easy for us to take complex ideas and make it approachable for young people.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Yeah, I agree. And they are the younger the better.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

You've said that every new class of students reaffirms how crucial financial education is. In your view, what are the biggest misconceptions young people and even adults have about money and retirement?

SPEAKER_02 37:37

The big questions that young people routinely ask me, and I do get a chuckle periodically in the workplace, or excuse me, in the classroom with none when some ask questions, is it's really edge cases that they tend to focus on. So something makes you know headlines, you know, some noteworthy financial event makes headlines. And it's really those edge cases that they tend to hone in on and have some questions about. And some of it is simply misconceptions about or a lack of understanding of how long-term investing uh differs from speculation. You'll see a company, for instance, that goes parabolic in terms of its stock price and it makes national headlines, and it's something that young people get tuned into because, again, it's an edge case that in their mind seems particularly noteworthy. Uh, what naturally we need to do is to help people understand that those edge cases really aren't the reality. Markets aren't really designed to go parabolic, even if a few individual companies may, uh, with respects to their share price. And generally, those parabolic moves uh tend to have significant downside as well, because of the volatility that's created, not just to the upside, but also to the ensuing drawdown. Um, in any event, it's really those types of edge cases that sometimes I get a chuckle about and just need to focus on making sure that we're grounded effectively on how to approach long-term savings, how that differs from speculation, and why a long-term disciplined approach uh is paramount. Retirement investing specifically is really not well suited for speculation. We're not here to encourage people to be day traders. We're encouraging people to accumulate and save in a disciplined way. And again, the mechanics of how we approach it in uh in our profession through workplace savings, routine, consistent payroll deduction that goes into a diversified portfolio of investments for long-term accumulation and growth, that looks and feels very different than in a speculative brokerage account chasing after the latest trend. That's not investing, that's gambling. And helping to encourage young people to think about it in that context is important. I'm also a financial consultant, and there is uh there's adults that uh that I do interact with that wish to speculate with portions of their portfolio. And I don't encourage them to do so, but I do encourage them to make sure that it's appropriately sized. Speculation itself is not necessarily inherently bad as long as investors have a working framework of how to exit certain positions if their speculative thesis turns out to be wrong. Uh, and that's really where I'm interacting with adults and they wish to speculate with portions of their portfolio, even if I'm not responsible for managing those pieces, if they're self-uh directing those pieces, it's always prudent to encourage people to think about what they'll do if they're wrong. Because truly known, when it comes to a lot of speculation, people are going to be wrong more often than they are right. So you need an exit plan from any type of a speculative move. Uh for young people, though, I'd really try to discourage any of that at all in terms of the curriculum around investing. I try to make the curriculum very approachable on basic concepts. What is debt and credit? What is income? What is money? As basic of a question as that is, it actually has a rather complicated answer. But it's focusing on those fundamentals and then layering, layering knowledge one brick at a time. And, you know, through that layered approach, I've seen young people really, really demonstrate a capacity to learn. Uh, and again, especially if the curriculum is made approachable to them. We use a lot of financial jargon, so I try to discipline myself to not focus on the jargon as much. So, even terms like income or expenses. Uh in the classroom, I try to pare that down to making money and spending money. An asset, I frame it as it's the stuff you own. A liability, that's the stuff you owe. Just even basics around use of jargon. And then as I'm going through my curriculum, I've actually this past year introduced a concept of a jargon alert, because we can't entirely remove financial jargon from the equation. It's just too pervasive in the sector that we operate in. Um, but at least letting students know, hey, jargon alert, be mindful. Um, and then trying to make that jargon a bit more uh financially approachable for them, uh, I find has been helpful.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Yeah, we talk about sometimes like in our industry, all the acronyms, right? And a friend of ours, JD Carlson, calls those acro sins. And I mean, I really try, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

I mean, because JD's great.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

He's fantastic. And so it's like when you're sitting there talking and you've got to really stop yourself, even when you're talking to a client who is a business owner who is educated, and you start using your jargons or you know, acronyms, you can make them feel stupid, right? Because they don't work in our industry every day. They have no idea where it's like speaking a foreign language. So I totally get. I think that, and I think that that's amazing. What impact have you seen firsthand from your Mr. 401k work in the classroom? Like, do you have a story you can share with us about one success story about one individual student that where like it really clicked and the light went on and you really saw it make a difference?

SPEAKER_02 43:15

I've been really fortunate, Shannon. I've had some wonderful students that have come through the classroom. There's one, though, that is noteworthy, uh young person named Isaac, who um who's just a wonderful student, a great kid, and has uh completed uh his term at the school that I teach at and has moved on now to uh to greener pastures. But after the class, he had actually contacted me and wanted to job shadow me in the workplace to see what it was that I do professionally uh day to day. Uh so we knew his parents through the school and confirmed that it would be okay with them and invited him to come along to uh our firms do an annual charity golf tournament and dinner event. And uh in addition to that, uh, we have a staff retreat in the days that followed. So we thought this would be a good perspective for him to see, you know, some of the business networking stuff that occurs uh in our space. Uh, and in addition to that, to be part of this retreat where we have uh staff members come in from across the country and we do some strategic planning internally uh with a focus on how to go about uh thinking about our business future. So he joined me over a two-day period for that and really asked just some wonderful questions along the way, beyond just financial education questions, more practical questions about what it is that we do in our work, in our little niche of uh the financial services sector. Uh, and it's really those types of interactions with young people that I love is when they have this natural curiosity, the need to unpack some concept that is of interest to them and to ask good questions uh about that concept. It's just um it's really rewarding work, uh, to be candid. I have no doubt from what I saw in this young person, he's gonna have a wonderful future, truly. And but I have been fortunate. There have been really great students that have come through my classroom, uh, and I count my blessings. I know that uh uh each student can be unique and each uh each educator's experience with uh with different classrooms of students um can vary, particularly when your focus is young people who are dealing with you know adolescents and all of the other things that go along with uh being a young person, learning, adapting, developing. In any event, I just count my blessings that we've had such great students come through my classroom.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

That's awesome. How do you believe your efforts in the classroom and in public education contribute to closing the retirement savings and coverage gaps across the country?

SPEAKER_02 45:47

It's just a small piece that I do, right? I'm hyper-focused locally here in the Seattle area, which is where uh uh where I live, to deliver some financial education to a classroom of students. It's an elective course, it's not required. So the students are choosing to uh enroll in that class. Uh and because of you know, of my own personal resourcing constraints, I'm not an educator full-time. I do this on a volunteer basis. So I teach one term every year. I teach winter term. So I know it has an impact based on the feedback that I get from students at the conclusion of the course. I ask everyone to complete a survey. Um it's done anonymously so that they could provide transparent, honest feedback to me. I share that feedback with the uh program sponsors within the school so they know what the feedback from students has been with respect to this financial education curriculum. And then I adapt the program based on that feedback. So I know firsthand that it's being really well received, not just by students, but also emails and correspondences and discussions that I have with parents too. Um much of the uh the curriculum that I share, it's available on my website. And I know full well that there have been parents that have digested it too and reached out with questions that they have about their own uh financial situation. To really make this a hugely impactful thing for society more broadly, it really has to be something that gets into classrooms across the nation. Uh, financial education, in my assessment, needs to be standardized. But there's also some good quality, constructive feedback, constructive negative feedback about the quality of some of the financial education that's being delivered. You really want this stuff to stick. And a big part of it is helping to encourage ongoing math skills, specifically financial math skills, to layer that knowledge, again, not just for one term, one class, but really over a period of years, starting as young as middle school and continuing into high school and beyond. And um, really that's going to, I think, have the greatest and most impactful success based on studies that I've read. But you really need to get this kind of financial education along with financial math to be standard approaches in schools. Uh, school districts have to embrace this curriculum and public education across the country. Sadly, I think until that happens, you know, we're still going to be dealing, and even after that happens, there's a period of time before those young people enter the workforce uh and are actually able to employ many of these concepts as adults. So to really see change, it's going to take, unfortunately, it's going to take a very long time. And I do my best to not be too much of a cynic uh when it comes to things. But when it does come to certain policy decisions around education, I've observed we tend to be, as a people, a bit more short-sighted than is desirable. An investment in financial education, it's a long-term investment. It's again, you need to start young over a period of years. And then that young person, when they're entering adults, adulthood can really employ the skills that they learn. It takes time. And a lot of the broader based investments that we make in society oftentimes might be short-sighted, especially from what I've seen around education, tragically.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Yeah, I wrote an article several years ago for Journal of Pension Benefits on financial literacy and education for kids. And it when I was doing my research, it shocked me how few states require any sort of any sort of personal finance or financial literacy class to graduate high school. Like there's so many states don't have that requirement at all. And in that research, it also said not only do we have a lot of grown adults and parents who aren't capable of talking to their kids about finances because they were never education educated in them, but the ones that are would rather, this was a quote, they would rather talk to their kids about drugs and alcohol and other things that you know normally we would think are taboo than personal finances. And it was shocking to me. I was like, no wonder, no wonder we have this issue. Like we're not even, there's got to be more of a requirement nationwide to do something along financial literacy at an earlier age. I totally agree with you. And I hope we see it true changes. It would change the world. It would change, it would make our jobs easier educating participants on why they should be participating in their 401k plan if they had some baseline of education early on. So 100%. Passionate about it too. You've written about the importance of allowing plan sponsors to use plan assets or receive tax incentives to provide financial education. Why do you think this is a critical shift? And what kind of impact could it have?

SPEAKER_02 50:37

So naturally, I am passionate about financial education for young people. The reality, however, and I kind of hinted at this, is I get questions from adults from their parents uh oftentimes when I'm teaching financial literacy with Mr. 401k. And uh the reality is adults need help too in this area because they never, to a great extent, were provided any form of financial education. You know, but as we discussed just a few minutes ago, everyone uses money every day of their life, everyone's a consumer, everyone spends money, everyone hopefully has some form of savings and investments. To a great extent, everyone takes on debt and credit to use as part of their day-to-day life as well. So it's natural that adults are going to have questions about how best to use those tools, especially if they never were provided any education around them, around those tools themselves. Uh so to that end, offering these types of programs in the workplace can be tremendously beneficial for adult professionals too. Uh so the concept of delivering some type of financial uh consulting work or financial planning work as an employee benefit, financial education as an employee benefit, I view as a really progressive approach to helping people in the workplaces learn more about how best to use their money. And again, for their circumstances, because each one of us are unique. So what's important to me is going to differ, Shannon, from what's important to you, and that's a good thing. But to that end, we each need to make the right use of the financial tools available to us to realize the goals and objectives that we seek. The workplace is an ideal place to deliver this type of education because, again, it's complementary to other benefits that are offered through a workplace, healthcare benefits, dental benefits, of course, retirement benefits. Benefits are naturally part of workplace compensation programs. So a natural extension would be of those workplace compensation programs is to provide a financial education benefit too. So to that end, I would absolutely support making such programs a permissible uh expense payable by plan assets. Of course, it needs to be structured prudently, but again, I would absolutely encourage that so that people in the workplace have the tools and resources available to make better, better choices as consumers. And that's, I think, again, a longer-term investment that we can make that's a net positive for society.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

So we're working on Secure 3.0 now, right? So I'm have you given this idea to ARA so that they can add it to the ideas for Secure?

SPEAKER_02 53:26

Our friends in ARA are well aware of what net perspectives are on this issue. And I've certainly vocalized it as well to um uh to staff members for uh for different policy uh policymakers in DC.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

I figured you had. Okay, we cannot talk about your service outside of your workplace without touching on one additional philanthropic activity that I know is near and dear to your heart and to your brothers. Please tell us about your family's work with the Pono Montrose Cancer Research Fund.

SPEAKER_02 53:56

Oh, thank you for asking that, Shannon. So when our father passed away from uh from bladder cancer, he was just 61 years of age. And uh, you know, again, I mentioned our time is scarce. It is the absolute universal, scarce thing in this universe. Time. We don't know when our life is going to end. And his tragically ended far too young. We thought what would be a wonderful tribute to him and also to the community that we're in is to launch a cancer research foundation uh in his memory and in his name that supported causes in our community around cancer research, cancer treatment, and cancer care. And we did precisely that. We launched it in 2006. I mentioned our charity golf tournament. Um, the proceeds from that charity golf tournament actually are tied to the Pono Cumatros Cancer Research Fund. And the fund does provide grants to research projects, to cancer treatment projects, and to cancer care-related projects in uh in our community in the Seattle Tacoma area here in the Puget Sound region of Washington State. Um, it's really been impactful. Uh, all told now, I think we've raised just over $1.7 million in support of those causes. We're deeply passionate about it as a family. You know, on a personal note, it's also just a wonderful way to keep our father's uh memory alive in our minds and in our hearts. Tragically, cancer touches 50% of people out there in some fashion. We all know people who have been impacted. Uh, I'm hopeful that in the future we're going to see really significant medical advances that eradicate cancer. I'm crossing my fingers that that day will come and that I live long enough to see it. But until then, this is a tiny thing that we can do to help drive towards that cause. And I know that there's wonderful other nonprofit organizations that are doing what they can to help drive towards an eradication of cancer in the future as well. It's inspiring.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Well, I think what you guys have done is amazing. And I have had the pleasure of being a sponsor for the golf tournament for several years.

SPEAKER_02 55:58

I appreciate that. Thank you. Truly.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

No, absolutely, because I believe so much in what you're doing. And hopefully, now that my youngest child is going off to college, uh, hopefully my husband and I will be able to make it out for the golf tournament one of these days. That's what that's on my bucket list.

SPEAKER_02 56:13

We'd love to welcome you.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

That's on my bucket list for sure. So what policy changes do you think are most urgently needed to improve retirement outcomes for underserved workers?

SPEAKER_02 56:24

Oh, for underserved workers specific coverage, full stop coverage. That's where we need to start. Uh until you are covering a significant number of people, universally, in fact, through some form of retirement benefit program, moving the needle is going to become uh moving the needle will remain challenging. Once you do have broad-based universal coverage in this area. And again, naturally being a private sector professional, I would hope that it's uh private sector-oriented providers that are involved in these arrangements. But I do admire what uh some of the public policies are around a government alternative where there is not sufficient adoption of plans by small employers. Uh, but coverage is really where we need to start for underserved communities. Beyond that, then we could focus on quality of coverage. So once you have broad-based coverage expansion, then you focus on the quality of retirement savings, the right types of incentives that are beneficial to members of those communities. Uh, and then you can really start to uh to move the needle in terms of better outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

Your firm works with thousands of plans and over 100,000 participants. What trends or strategies have you all seen that actually move the needle when it comes to boosting participation and savings rates in the real world?

SPEAKER_02 57:46

Got to keep it simple. And I should also clarify that's across our entire family of companies, uh, the number of plans that we serve and the total number of participants and investors that we serve. Uh, but there's no doubt, you got to keep it simple. That's paramount. And again, this is where technology has the potential to really make things even more streamlined. It's already done so in a wonderful way here, uh, but it's only going to accelerate, we believe, in the years to come. The investments that service providers will need to make in technology to keep driving this engine forward for plan sponsors and participants is going to be significant because, again, that's what makes things easier. When all of these plans are as easy for an employer to administer as the approach that, let's say, Apple has taken with respects to consumer uh electronic devices. That's what I think we're going to be driving to with technological innovations in the years ahead. And I think that's going to be a net positive for both employers and for their workforces.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

See, you must have read my mind because my next question was on technology for you, but you've already covered it. So that's awesome. Great minds think alike. No. Okay, we're going to wrap it up. This is the big one. If every retirement plan sponsor or advisor listening to this episode were to take one step tomorrow to help close the gap, what would you encourage them to do, either within their plans or out in their communities?

SPEAKER_02 59:09

I would say pay it forward. If you've been privileged enough to have benefited financially from the successes of this work, and for high-quality professionals that have devoted their careers to this, I think they have, then find a way to pay it forward in whatever way is important and meaningful to you. You might take a different path than me. And you should, because you're unique. You have your own passions and aspirations in life. But if you've benefited from this space, if you've reaped the benefit of these successes and doing the work that we do, find a way to pay it forward. Get involved in working with kids about money. Consider engaging with uh adult professionals who are uh launching their careers to provide complimentary seminars uh around how to begin the process of saving and budgeting. Work with soon-to-be retirees at no charge to help them plan for social security and uh what that's going to look like for their next stage in life. There's a number of ways that we could pay it forward. And again, obviously, we do need to reap the financial benefits of the work that we do. We've got to a great extent families of our own that we need to take care of. But again, I would encourage everyone who's benefited from this profession financially to find a way to pay it forward in their community in some fashion.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:33

I totally agree. Thank you so much for sharing your insights and for the work you're doing to help sponsors and advisors strengthen their plans and better serve working Americans. Your work helps close the gaps we talk about on this show. For anyone who wants to learn more about the work Petros does every day, we will have his contact information in the show notes. If you're listening to this podcast and you believe that you have an innovative approach to closing the gaps in retirement savings for Americans and you would like to share your ideas, let me know. My contact information is in the show notes as well. Thanks for joining us on The Gap. Please join us next time.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:10

Thank you, Shannon. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

Thank you for listening to The Gap. Be sure to check out the show notes for important links, retirement plan resources, and more at TriStarPension.com. While you're there, sign up for our information tech newsletter. And if you enjoy the conversation, follow our podcast, share it, and tell a friend about it. And most importantly, rate and review it on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for listening.