Joy is Resistance - A Conversation with Hannah Illingworth

TW: This episode contains discussion of suicide and mental health. If you're struggling, please reach out to Lifeline on 13 11 14 or visit lifeline.org.au

Hannah Illingworth has spent her life connecting people to creativity, as Director of Darwin Fringe Festival and the force behind community spaces like Babes that Paint and Queens of the Amp. Like so many of us, her path there was anything but straight.

Expelled from school, grieving a best friend lost to suicide at thirteen, and navigating the systems around her, Hannah found her footing through art, community, and an instinct to just keep trying things. 

In this conversation, she talks about building an identity through chaos, the cost of loving your work so much it swallows you whole, and why real and honest anger might be the most underrated source of power we have.

Joy, she says, is resistance. This episode is about what that actually means.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to What Remains Wild. This podcast is recorded on beautiful Larakea country and is about transition, identity, leadership and the parts of us that won't be tamed. This episode contains discussion of suicide and mental health. If you are struggling, please reach out to Lifeline on 131114 or visit lifeline.org.au. I hope that you enjoy today's discussion.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Today I'm really pleased to have Hannah on the podcast. Hannah is the director of the Darwin Fringe Festival, has been for quite a long time and across a whole range of creative endeavors here in Darwin. But Hannah, if I could ask you just to kind of maybe sum yourself up in a few words, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Oh, a few words. I think on my LinkedIn bio I have connecting creativity, which sounds wanky to reference my LinkedIn bio, but I I come up with that because I've been lucky enough to be involved in so many things. And I feel like connecting creativity kind of summarizes the vast majority of what I do, whether it's creating events for audiences to come and see creativity, creating opportunities for artists to take on new things, or even marketing and connecting. I love connecting people with culture and stories.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

I don't know if that is too ambiguous, but so creativity is obviously a really important part of your life and an important part of your identity. When did that appear for you? When did you learn? I mean, obviously, like lots of people do creative stuff when they're kids. It's really important. But how did you come about realizing that that was more for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Yeah, I was really I always loved thinking about this because yeah, as you said, I did as a kid, I was really into drawing. I was super lucky. My parents really supported me with that by buying me lots of pencils, books. I did lots of drawing. I also did jazz dancing lessons as well for a while, and I was quite into hip hop dance and then got into theatre. But I was quite uncertain as a kid about what I wanted to do. And it was probably in my teen years I actually got really into I was watching a lot of Kat Fon D, and so I got really into tattooing and I was into eternity like music, so it was a very easy pathway, and then I was kind of like, oh, I might be a tattooist, uh illustrator. I knew I wanted to do something in the arts, and I guess I didn't really even have a formalized idea, even now. Like I I'm just feel really lucky to be here because I think it was probably just in my teens that I started the more I was maybe feeling disconnected or not so good in my life, the importance of art just kept coming up again and again for myself, but also then seeing it for either my friends or other people. So in high school, after I left Darwin, I went to Mount Isa and I was uh finishing year 11 and 12 there, and they have your school captains, like you have a sports captain, and you might have another captain. So at that school, they actually have an arts captain. Wow, and really that's quite progressive, exactly. Yeah, out in the middle of the desert, they had an arts captain position, and I took that on, and I don't know what it was, but they elect you at the end of the year, you know, before your term. And so I remember it was like November, school was finishing, I got announced as the arts captain, and by December, I had sent like a two-page plan to the principal of the school of like this is the events plan for next year. Wow. Because I wanted to create all these events for different art forms and stuff. So every every term, I think we did three or four events from like I did a pop-up open mic music gig at lunch times. We did like an art scavenger hunt. The talent show was an existing event, but we built on that and we filled it out so much like they couldn't fit everyone in the theater. Like there was just, I just was so obsessed with like the intersection of community and creativity. And so I would have been 16, 17 at that time. And I was also started getting paid to customize shoes because when I went to private school here, you weren't allowed to wear colourful shoes, and so I started drawing online. How did that go down? Maybe one of the many reasons I was expelled at some point. But uh, I then started getting paid to do it though, and so I turned that into a business. Um, so I was like 17 running my own little creative business. I was doing arts for people, I started doing mural work and very quickly also started doing trying to facilitate active like creative activities, whether I did some sh custom shoe illustration workshops at the boarding house there for all the regional like kids who were coming in. I did some spray painting stuff, even though at the time I had no idea what I was talking about. But I was like running spaces to get other people to have a go at things, and I think since that I've just like not looked back, like it's just felt so natural that I couldn't imagine like doing anything else. So 16, 17 again.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Wow, that's pretty incredible that you created that events plan back then, and now look, I know you're doing that for work. It was pretty hardcore. I think even the teachers were like, What is going on here? Yeah, yeah. I love that. That's great. And in terms of so you spent a lot of time when you were a kid on stations, and so you've traveled around a bit, and how's that kind of shaped your creativity and and your life and your sense of self?

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Yeah, I think um because on the stations it's quite like isolated, there's people out there, but um, it made me realise the importance of I guess ingenuity because when you are in the middle of nowhere, like when I was I spent six months out at um Cameron Down station in Braduri after I got expelled, and so that's in the middle of like literally it's the edge of the Simpson Desert, the start of the Birdsville track. I think there's like 70 people in the town. I was on a station with my grandparents, my uncle, and a few other people. So I literally just exposed to about 10 people most for months on end. And yeah, just realizing how important it was for like relaxation, processing, just being present. Also, it's enjoyable, so it was like entertainment. I think the things anytime I reflect on being out like bush and on stations is just yeah, you kind of gotta give sh give shit a go. Like there's no one else to do it, and so that kind of does give you a bit more of a like, oh I'll just give give things a try. Because a lot of the time, like when you're growing up, you see your parents having to just figure shit out. And so, yeah, that has been a big driver of I think to me, it's helped, um, even though I might like I have a lot of insecurity and I don't have the best self-esteem. There's like a weird natural confidence just from seeing people just sort of try things because there's no other option, yeah. So, yeah, and you have to be kind of very self-reliant, and just do your own again, you're not talking to heaps of people, so it's like having a hobby or drawing or passions is so important because otherwise you'd be out in the desert just like freaking out, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, and something that I've talked about with other people, and I know you've uh spoken about in the media before, it's been around you know, like anxiety and mental health, and how how do you think creativity plays into that and managing those that part of life for you?

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Again, it's such a source of presence, processing, especially for like for me personally, everyone's so different. Like, no, it's just monolith, but for me, I found a lot of my art's really responsive to my own life. For example, I know some incredible, some of the older painters who I hung out with a few times or was on like a committee with in Mount Isa. They're all incredible landscape painters, and for them that was really calming. But for me personally, a lot of my work ends up sometimes being political, social commentary. So it's like help helps me process things, understand my identity and build a confidence. But I also I lost my best friend when I was 13 to suicide and she was 14. And even though I'm not saying that it was a lack of art that caused uh that to happen, I think after that loss and then having a few other friends, having other friends go through severe mental health stuff and a few more suicides, I've just seen I think art is so empowering for so many reasons, and for that, that's why I'm not only driven to it to practice it myself, but also to share and connect other people with it, because like informed, empowered people is like the ideal. Like, imagine a and I know you know that, but um, so for me, creativity is like I guess my language and my way of playing into that bigger picture, and that's why I also feel really driven to it, is because I love people feeling more confident, building skills to better deal with things, and yeah, hopefully maybe not feeling so alone.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Yeah, super, super important. So I'm interested then in what what's your what's your view when people say that politics needs to, or you know, arts needs to stay separate from politics.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

It's so good, it's so funny. Anyone who says that obviously has no understanding of the history of arts out. No, I mean I don't, but I definitely can say that at work. I like to try and understand everyone's point of view, regardless of whether I believe in it. But for me, I think uh politics should stay out of arts. So politics should not be governed, silenced, censored. I sorry, arts should not be governed, censored, or anything by politics. But I think arts aren't politics not integral to arts, but uh so much art helps us better understand the world, whether it's truth telling and looking at things that have happened before, or where are we going in the future, it can help transform our ideas of what another community or might another person might need. I actually think arts are really important part of democracy. And I've that even though they are separate, like I also very much believe in making art that is just for the sake of art too. Like sometimes I draw shit because I'm like, that looks awesome, and I want to draw it, or I dance at my friend's goth geek because I'm like, I just want to dance tonight. But I yeah, I whenever people say that to me, it's really hard not to go on a rant like this about how how important it is to not not censor the arts and tell people what they should be making art about. Because again, yeah, art's such a spectrum, but the ability to process, document, archive, and yeah, just really like either celebrate or even be concerned over stuff. And obviously, politics is so intersectional and affects so much of our lives whether we want to think and talk about that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

I thought that would be your would be your answer, but I'm always curious because it comes up a lot.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

It it also comes up in sport, if we're honest, you know, they might be a sports person who makes a political statement or does what people see as a political act, and people just think they should be separate, but uh politics is about people and impacts on everyone's lives, so and especially artists are often really deep thinkers, like you know, people are drawn to the arts again because they're like stewing on ideas or wanting to explore something and try new things, so it's kind of inherent in deep thinkers to be thinking about larger concepts, about society, about systems. So I think organically, like it would be weird if arts weren't slightly political in the in the way it exists in our world in this time. But yeah, I just don't see arts without politics. But I'm also, as I said, not someone who thinks that arts have to be political. Have fun, have a night that's just silly and random because joy is also can be political in itself, but you know, joy is also so important.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Yeah, it absolutely is, and I think especially at the moment, that's a really important thing for people to remember because you know, it's it is quite a challenging time in the world at the moment, and there's a lot that you can consume, and I've talked about this before, but a lot that you can consume that is can be feel quite overwhelming, and it is like you do need to sustain yourself and yeah, occasionally come up fair and not burn yourself out by it all.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Exactly, and joy is uh resistance sometimes in spaces where you have people who maybe are really trying to push down certain groups or identities and stuff, joy having that moment for joy can be really powerful as communities as well.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

So yeah, so you've been responsible for things like Queens of the Amp and Babes That Paint, so providing spaces for women in areas that they might not typically have opportunity or might not typically try spray painting or getting up on stage. Why has that been so important to you?

SPEAKER_00 14:07

For me, it was because obviously, as someone who's a spray painter in that scene, there's so many incredible like female and non-binary artists who have inspired me. But yeah, I think in Darwin especially, I found that there was such a longing, and people kept they'd see me painting it, but I've always wanted to try, I've always wanted to do this. And I also was like most of the time, it's not, and I wasn't I'm even before I started the group, I wasn't the only female painter in town. We have several, like you know, there's several of us, yeah, but it is still such a small group, and I was getting every call about I want a female painter, I need a painter, and I want representation. And I was like, it's not good to monopolize, and I want to live in a world where there's too many female painters to choose for. You know what I mean? It's a good problem to have.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Yeah, you become it does happen here, you become the one. Because we call Hannah and we know she'll say yes, and she's good, and we don't know anybody else. Yeah, and it's less effort than finding out who else is around. Exactly. So you're like forcing people to. So yeah, it was to know that it is more people.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Exactly. And it's good motivation, you know. It got me out painting, you know, it gets me down there doing things. And the same for hip-hop. Like, I am not musical in the slightest. Absolutely not one of my skills. But event producing and being, I guess, like a huge hip-hop fan and kind of being in the periphery of the scene. Um, it's kind of like the spray painting. Again, it was just like we need the hip-hop and spray painters in Darwin too. I can't credit majority of the men enough for not being dicks. You know what I mean? Like, we've got such accepting people here. So it wasn't even like a oh, we've got to make a space for the girls because the guys aren't doing it. It was actually really kind and really supported by a lot of the males. So my response was not because there was any sense of rejection or like lack of openness from them. It was just like, oh, especially for some women who aren't used to being in male spaces, it makes it can make the difference towards getting them to have a go for the first time. And because I grew up on stations, like competing, like riding potty cars at the rodeo where I was the only female, you know, being on musters where there's like not a lot of female, yeah. Just I grew up riding motorbikes and stuff, you know. So for me, I a lot more comfortable maybe being the only or one of the only women in a space. And so I wanted to like leverage my privilege with that to make it easier for others to come in. And again, yeah, we opened up both events have always been about opening up to like female and LGBTQIA plus people because, and again, not a comment on who in town is doing stuff, the hip hop groups, the painters, they're all so lovely. But yeah, just making a space where there's a sense of ownership and people can feel confident and come in and claim it as theirs.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

So, yeah, and sometimes people need help giving themselves permission to do that, to try something new. Yeah, and you just make that easier. Like, here's a way that you can just come on in.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Yeah, and they see like a lot of other people just having a go and be like, oh, it's my first gig, or it's my first second paint, you know, and so that that also helps because you don't feel like you're walking in there with like people who've been spray painting for 20 years, and that can be kind of intimidating.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So you're a big community builder, and that's a really important part of what you do, connecting people, providing opportunities for people, and making these arts and creativity accessible more accessible to people. What's why is that so important to you? What's shaped your views around that?

SPEAKER_00 18:08

That's a great question. I think for me, one of the big things that I guess has shaped my views around that is because of again, I have been so supportive to give things a go, whether it was my family, uh, friends. Uh, I was extremely lucky in high school, especially when I was just after my best friend had died, and my brother was going through his like second round of cancer treatment. My dad was in court fighting some pretty shitty things, and so I was like not in a good place mentally. And I had this incredible teacher who actually the first thing she ever said to me is tattooed on my arm, which she said it'll be a lot of work, but it'll be worth it. And we're still like mates to this day, but I have received so much support and openness, and I don't want anyone to not ever feel that in these spaces or any space that I'm personally interested or capable of being in. But I know that hasn't been the case for everyone, so for me, I'm like, I want to use my privilege and my support to extend that to other people because that love and support is one of the main reasons I've been able to get through the shit that I've gotten through, and again, having lost my best friend and other people to things like suicide or even drug addiction is yeah, I just hate people being, yeah, that's like the worst idea in the world is knowing that someone's in that much pain. So at the very least, the skill sets I have, I'm like, can I make things a bit easier or a bit better?

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah, I'm not a doctor, but I can paint, you know.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

So same, same.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Yes, just don't give me a scalpel. All right, no scarcles here. Did does the teacher know that then I presume that you her words are tattooed on your arm?

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yeah, and when I when I tattooed it, actually, I posted You tattooed it, yeah, yeah. Okay, wow. I I posted it online and students from all across the country commented on it. Really? Backing up what I said about her. So it was nice to be able to yeah, hopefully, yeah, she just shine a light on some of the work she was doing in and out of that classroom.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

That's so important, isn't it? And especially for, you know, obviously school was challenging for you at times that you were drawing on shoes, getting in trouble for it. No, but uh like yeah, I mean school how was that for you and how did having a teacher like that impact your experience of being there?

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Yeah, it's it's made such a difference. I was really lucky in yeah, throughout primary school now, I was like kind of a naughty kid, but I was like pretty well behaved, but it wasn't until I started getting my teens, hormones kick in, life stuff kicks in, potentially some undiagnosed autism and ADHD kicks in, and I started feeling more and more withdrawn. And yeah, I think after my best friend died, that was like that. I was maybe walking my paths where the options were like that, and then I very quickly was like, nah, boom, let's go this way. And so, you know, I was like, I was doing a lot at school, but you know, like I was I got so drunk before class one day. I was sitting in class in the second row, and I vomited on my desk, and I didn't know that I was gonna vomited, and I was complaining to everyone. And I was like, why is it smelling here? And I was the one who'd done it. Look, I'd probably say I had a good time, but I was having a pretty bad time too. But um, yeah, having a teacher who could kind of see through that and saw that it wasn't. Like there was things going on at like beyond the classroom that were causing me to maybe not behave in the best way, was just made that difference. And to be honest, her advice actually was from what I remember after a few months, she was like, I don't think you should be in a school. But she was like, You should be in uni studying arts. And so once I got expelled, I actually started visual art course at CDU because she was like, You need to be, she's like, You're good at academics, you're good at stuff. Like, I was nailing all of her assignments. Anything I cared about was like a non-issue. But she was like, put you in spaces where you can explore things a bit more, have a bit more openness. And so, not that she told me to leave school, but she was like, to be honest, you might actually enjoy more just actually studying something you're really interested in and getting at because the private school was good, but they were also it's a private school, you know. I was like an emo scene kid who wanted rainbow hair, and I was constantly fighting with teachers about the unnatural colour of my hair, and it's a good use of time, isn't it? Exactly. Yeah, all teachers. So and then, yeah, so once I got expelled, I went over and spent it was like a month and a half, two months on a station in WA, and then I came back and was like, no, I'll study arts. And then I only went to CDU for like five days, and I got kicked out of home. And so I finished that course, and I did finish the course, I left left town, but yeah, so end of that story is yeah, having a teacher like that really gave me like a central point of connection, a tire to the world when maybe my parents were like, because they were struggling with their own shit too, and my parents were there, but it was you know, it was I wasn't the easiest to deal with. Um, they had their own traumas, you know, like they so we had six siblings, we constantly had extra kids in the house because my mum was like looking after all these extra kids, so you know to just split focus, and then the teacher who just kind of saw you and what was going on for you, and then what you were really good at. Yeah, I think too, like even at that stage, I was as I said, I was like this emo, queer theatre kid, a bit arty, and my my parents are so supportive, but I think both of their upbringings, they're like culturally to connect with that. Like my mum grew up on station, she homeschooled her whole life, and again, so supportive, but like she wasn't a theatre kid, she's like, What is this weird shit? You know, no, she never said that. No, you know, like yeah, even my interests and that they're like, okay, and like just hard to relate. Yeah, and they did their they did their best, but you know, I'm just also just like defiant too. I think like that's undebatable. Yeah, my attitude didn't make it easy for them either.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Sure. Yeah. And do you think that you would have found your way there if you didn't have that teacher? Do you think you would have found your way there eventually anyway? Or that just she helped you just kind of fast forward to figuring shit out for yourself about where you actually wanted to be.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah, it's such a um Oh, I wonder what has happened in the multiple universes though. I know which ones, but yeah, yeah, I think because when I think back on it, as I said, at that stage, before I started that class, and because I started that class, I got I was getting kicked out of what I got kicked out of, I got kicked out of dance, that's right. And so I wasn't because he only had, you know, you're like two electives, I think, or something, and I was doing outdoor ed because I had a boyfriend, I want to spend more time with him, and then I was doing dance because all my female friends like were really into dance, you know. We spent every lunchtime like coming up, choreographing a dance. On today's world, you would be one of the TikTok exactly, like the TikTokers look back in our day, you know, we'd pitched it and do it at the school assembly, but uh of course, yeah, constantly then arguing with teachers about overly sexualized dance move. But um anyway, I was in the dance class and the I don't know, I was like arguing with the teacher. I think she was maybe also a bit problematic. I don't know, there was things going on, they were like, you need to choose another elective, and then everyone kept telling me because I was in a drawer and I was into art and I saw myself as an arty kid, but I wasn't doing art class, and then there was they hadn't have a design class, and the boyfriend that I had at the time was also in that class, and everyone was like, Yeah, it's the easiest class, we just fuck around, we don't really do much. This poor teacher, man, and she's so good, but anyway, and that a few of my mates were like, Oh, you should just come over because we just play Halo and like great, make shit up, and then hand in our assignments, and I was like, Cool, I signed up for that class, and then I think our first assignment was some drawing exercise, and I just smashed out I did so many. We had to do like four or something drawings. I think I did like eight because I was just like, Oh, this is really easy, and then realized that my natural inst my natural interest could be really fulfilled in a design art space. And yeah, so I guess that was another one of those really path-defining moments because it gave me a go, like, oh, whether I use this for my tattooing or something, like I think I can lock in here and I feel seen, and I'm not just uh showing up and like doing what I need, you know what I mean. I'm not just showing up and I'm not just passing, I'm actually doing pretty good at this. Yeah, and so I was that probably having that sort of reception to something that I was interested in and good at doing helped me go, like, all right, this is something might be conf yeah, just confidence building, yeah. So I'd say it's like really important whether I got there, who knows, man. I could be on a station with like seven kids riding horses, but even though to be honest, even though as a kid, like and nothing like my family and stuff, like that's so good. I just I think as a kid, I was just so I didn't really see myself, I didn't know where I saw myself, you know. So, but the design and the art stuff I started it was like, oh this this feels right. I don't have to question things, I'm not forcing anything.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

That's amazing. Yeah, but just felt right. Yeah, so in terms of the work you do now, so things like Darwin Fringe and creating spaces for people, and we've had this conversation before. I'm interested in what you think about gatekeeping that happens in arts. We've talked about it before. There's lots of people who don't necessarily understand or see themselves as participating in creativity in the arts, even though most people are doing it every single day. They're not connecting it as participating in the arts. So how important do you think it is to make it more accessible? And do you think that there is a level of gatekeeping that goes on?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Yeah, definitely like making things anything more accessible, but especially the arts has been so important. And I preface that by also acknowledging that I also, especially in like graffiti and street art, honouring elders, experienced authorities. I also very much believe in that. You know, graffiti culture, street art culture, there's certain rules and stuff, and like so. I'm also big on honouring experience or training and stuff. I'm not just saying none of that matters, and we're all on this, like, yeah, how do I explain? I'm not disregarding that, or especially in the space of like artists who go and train absolutely for years. Yeah, I highly commend that. Make money out of their art. Yeah, I love that as well. But I guess that's why I'm so attracted to fringe, and fringe spaces feel bright for me, is because I really, yeah, I see a lot of people as well, not a lot, as you said, I yeah, everyone's artistic in their own way, and the way I think about it is is I feel like you uh there's kind of like a spectrum of creativity, and in your life, you will move along that, and that might change day to day over periods of time, whatever. But I think everyone's definitely creative in their own way, and even defining what art is for me can be really hard. Even if you're not creative, a lot of people don't realize even they're even when they're curating ideas, stories, your own life, to me, that's an element of creativity as well. And so I guess why it's important, yeah, keeping arts accessible is everyone being able to have a go. As I said, it comes back to my like core belief in building confidence for each other, building our sense of empowerment, and having a world where you feel like you can just give things a go. Like there's I couldn't imagine anything worse where if we're all stuck in this rigid thing of like, oh, this is who I am and this is my bops and I never move out of that. And that like the society would not have grown to this point if we if we were like that. And so for me, it's like I love fringe because I do I get to work with people who are like, I've never put on a show before, but I've always wanted to do this, or I practice this thing in my room and no one's ever seen it. And going like, hey, that's good enough to share. People, humans coming together to share things is such an integral part of our communities and our traditions and our society. So a festival format is even it's perfect for that. It's you know, it's the ability to come and I'm coming, I know I'm gonna see someone who I've never seen before, and that's okay. And I'm here with you, and you're having a go, and I'm trying something new, and that demands so much presence, and that can create such a beautiful, like true moment, you know, you're not anywhere else but there. And so realizing that I'm ranting on this one keeping it.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

No, no, it's all it's it's great. And I'm just thinking myself, you know, like what would you say to people who don't necessarily go into well, what would we say is a creative space, but who who wouldn't normally go to a festival feels like those things are not for them. What would you say to those people?

SPEAKER_00 33:06

I think you'd be surprised. Even if you're and I I'm not like in the it's like sports versus arts, like they're all a part of performance and culture and coming together, they have a lot of shared elements. They do. A lot of underpaid people, a lot of teams, you know. Again, there's very celebratory, can be political, they teach us about ourselves, they help us enjoy life and they help us understand life and the things. So, yeah, I'd say for people, you don't have anything to lose by going down and seeing our long theatre show. You will probably surprise yourself. Um, you'll probably be surprised about the community you live in. That's one of the other big things I love about not gatekeeping is seeing people come to a show, and then afterwards they're like, yeah, that was bloody so-and-so from the office, and I had no idea they could haul a hoop like that. And even under there, it helped you're like, oh my god, like your understanding of life is made bigger and your world has opened up because you're like, oh, people have these cool hidden talents and passions and hobbies, and I feel like it just, yeah, it can get you re-in re-excited about life as well. And at the very least, you're like, oh, this isn't really my thing. But I would say there's probably is an art form out there for you. Um, you know, keep trying. And at the end of the day, too, if it's not for you, it's still for a large amount of people around the globe. And uh yeah, even like think about I I always bring up music to people. I'm like, I'm guessing you listen to music at some point, whether it's driving the work, most people exactly go in for a run, and it's like that is art. So you obviously love art, and yeah, give it a go.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Yeah, yeah. I agree with that. And so when you talked about creating arts for art's sake earlier, also super important. How do we get more people doing that and exploring their own selves through just arts for art's sake and just going, you don't have to be producing Monet style paintings? But there's an element of the process that's just fundamentally important to understanding ourselves. So, how can people be more creative and give themselves permission to do that and not feel like I'm not good at this thing?

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Yeah, it's such a hard one because even that's something I've been trying to do with myself, is because especially for a few years there, like every single drawing or painting I've been doing is for a commercial purpose, which is an extremely lucky, privileged spot to be in. But it also meant that I'm not really making and creating all the work that really speaks to me. And as I said before, I've often found that I use my art to process life and the things around me, and so one thing that I've been trying to do the last few years, it's also why I love graffiti because it you don't know how long it's gonna last. There it really takes off a lot of the pressure, um, not pro-graffiti, largely anyway. But uh for me, it's been about really uh trying to give myself time permission and time to just do things for absolutely no reason. I think there's this pressure, like even outside of arts, like nowadays kind of feels like even if you have a hobby, you should like monetize it, hustle culture. Yeah, yeah. And it's okay to just do things because you kind of like doing them. And that's so I've been trying to find as many moments as I can to work on that within myself because it's an insecurity I have. Like I've draw a lot less now because there is there's a fear it's like, oh, it's not gonna be good because I'm so used to drawing for commercial things where it feels you know, it's gonna be seen publicly, someone's paying for it. So just really taking that pressure off, and like I'll do what I like. I've just been trying to do like what I call to myself is shit sketches. So it's like I don't care, not even having a razor near me. Yeah, just like yeah, yeah. I wanted to always try and draw this weird position. Let me draw that, and I know that it's not gonna look good, but it's about being in the moment, so it's like a muscle too, and it's like that I personally have lost and I'm in I'm trying to bring back, but I'd say as much as you can, just like remind yourself that it everything matters, but at the same time, like sometimes it's like it doesn't matter, and just like it's a you know, trying to do things like colouring books, because even as an illustrator, I was like, oh, colouring in books, this is such a like gatekeeper attitude, but it was like not that I was ever like angry, but it was sort of like oh, I don't use colouring books because I'm an illustrator, and then some of my friends have like very nicely given me some fun colouring in books the last few years, and so I've actually found myself every few months I'll try and just do colouring because a lot of my illustrative work is based around colour use, and so it's like fun, carefree, it's not gonna go anywhere, no one's seeing it. So, yeah, like a muscle in any other habit, trying to just be like fuck it, as yeah, you get it's uh it's so important.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

I think the habit piece is really important. I I think the creativity thing's really important. I think lots of people lose it throughout their lives, and it's a conversation I had with Adam, Drake, as well, which is like you you do, you start to feel almost like oh, this is this is indulgent, and there's like things that I need to do, and I should be doing this work thing, or I should be doing this thing with my family, or I should be, and it yeah, it's you you kind of attach guilt to it because it is something that often forces you to slow down, and it does feel like you're doing something for yourself. What am I doing this for? And then like not everything has to have some kind of like great, amazing purpose, right? Sometimes it literally is like stress relief is actually really important, and relaxing is important, and rest is important, and you know, I think probably for a lot of our generation there is that idea of like, well, we've had all of these people that have gone before us that have fought really hard for us to be able to, especially as women, you know, like do the things that we do that we kind of feel like we have to do everything, fit everything in, and be productive all the time. Yeah. Which means we don't make space for joy.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

It's like a constant the house is you know what I mean? House has got to be clean, this has got to be like, and it's just really hard to keep up with anyway, you know, whether you're doing the art or not. So it's like I may as well, I can forfeit an extra two hours and be like behind on my washing because I'm gonna be behind on my washing. Having that internal discussion and again giving a permission, self-permission to do that is uh yeah, it's hard. Like, and even now, even working in the arts and having these conversations and trying to constantly uh not only get people into the arts but egg on other artists, it's something I struggle with too. And it's either, yeah, I have like we've pulled back from doing pushing and trying to do I guess art for other people. At the moment, I'd say like my art is like cultural and community developed. I see that as just so much like my other work as an art, but for my personal, like illustrative and my painting work, I've like really actually pulled back and again super privileged to be able to make that decision because I just want to go away and make some work for me, make work for no purpose, like get in tune with my skill set again. And that's been like a dedicated decision and working towards a better life balance. So I have that energy to do that because I've just like I love my job, get really addicted to it and really hyper-focused, and especially like I didn't start fringe, but like taking it on and then trying to build it to where it is now. I had to sacrifice a lot of like unpaid time too, yeah, which I see like great benefit from anyway. But more so, yeah, I just yeah, kind of forgot my own practice, and so now I'm like pulling it away to make it mine again, and then when I'm in a better place, then I'll probably be, you know, that's when I'll start chasing more opportunities to share it publicly. But yeah, that's been my own personal thing is like actually taking it away from commercial factors and going, nah, art for the sake of art, or what do I want to say with my art? I'm really dialectic like that, and I always as two sides, I think. I'm like, what do I want to say with it? But at the same time making work that says nothing.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Yeah, fair enough. Cool art or not, or shit drawings. Love it. So outside of the creative realm of life, what other things are you doing to keep you feeling strong and able to balance two jobs plus volunteering and everything else that you do?

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Um I've been doing I'll start with this one first. And this sounds to some people I've been told a lot growing up, like, don't get so upset about things, especially things you can't control. And I have found even now that like I'm still young, but like even you know, coming up to 32, I'm like, I just some days I'm just angry and I'm sad about the state of the world, state of community, things that are happening around me. And some of it's like shit sucks. And I'm actually finding a great source of my power actually comes from making time to feel that and not denying it. Yeah, finding ways to obviously deal with it and not get upset and angry all the time. But I think like the last 12 months, I've really just actually owned that sadness and that anger and this feeling of immense guilt for being so lucky because this world is just the luck of the jaw for everything. You know what I mean? Yeah, sadly. And it's so a big part of me actually feeling in a place where like I'd say you know, I'm on top of my mental health touch for more than ever, you know, I'm feeling like maybe the best emotion control I've ever felt in my life is coming from the fact that sometimes I'm sad and angry about shit, and I don't try and stop that. I want I'm this thing's making me angry. And then I obviously find help try and find healthy ways to deal with that, whether that's making sure I'm connecting with community too. Grieve, whether it's going to protest for things that I care about, making sure that I can feel like I can make action towards those things. I'm not lacking control, looking into things like anarchist calisthenics, which is really interesting. Concept and theory, and it's really cool when it's looking at, oh, I should have done my homework. It's uh what was it, radical optimum optimism or something, but it doesn't mean toxic positivity. It's like looking at the reality of the situation. Radimancy. Yeah. That's it. Thank you. So doing things like that, also looking at uh groups who have done work with far less, you know, people over history who made change when they probably didn't feel like they could, or they're up against something so immovable that nothing would ever change. And so that gives me a lot of sense of power too, because it's like pull your head in and get over yourself. You know what I mean? Not being too harsh on myself, but more so it's seeing what I have around me, what change can I make. So, yeah, being really honest with my feelings, trying to educate myself better, be connected to community, and yeah, being inspired and motivated by people who have made these, who have made change, and then trying to have better work-life balance. So this year, my goal is I'm trying to work five days a week. And I know that I'll end up working a few more, especially over a festival period. But again, just saying that with an edit heaps of privilege, but yeah, just having life balance again because I have been so addicted to my work and used it to ignore a lot of my own problems, and it's hard because I love my work so much that I couldn't, I wouldn't let myself create that separation, and I felt guilty for creating that separation. So trying to have more work-life balance, and that has been helping me, and even working on my executive function as well. Like, I've really hard to keep it on top of like even house things, and so this year I'm like trying to do that.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

All yeah, all the things. So much of what you're saying, I think, will resonate with people, and I think the the anger thing, really important. That's something I've explored for myself in the sense that I think, again, particularly for women, it's not necessarily you just learn to push it down a lot, or if you do express it, we're not necessarily taught as women how to express anger in healthy ways, or or men really, actually. But you know, I think women are a lot better at pushing it down over time. But um it it is one of many emotions that we feel for a reason, and there are healthy ways to show it, and there are ways to channel it, and it's so important to sit with that. Um, I think we don't kind of give space to the negative feelings a lot. Uh and we do a lot to try and just shield ourselves from from that that end up putting us in potentially a worse place overall, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

And as you said too before, it's like that guilt thing, you know, you're like uh looking at all the the women and the leaders and the people who come before us and being like, I've got to constantly sacrifice, you know, in order to give that the credit it's due. And I also think too, and I'm like saying speaking to Australian culture, because obviously like I'm Australian and grew up here, and I assume it's probably the same in other places, but I think too, there can be some real pushback culturally for us because we you know, we're taught we're brought up. One of the big things is respecting elders and respecting, you know, a sense of authority and those who've come before us. And I find that for a lot of people, they immediately go, cool, that means we never criticize things. Yeah. And so they almost like I've faced pushback in my family, friends, you know, in my life, because people like, well, we've got it lucky here, don't question anything. And it's like, well, I'm raging because for these rights are up the shitter, or you know whatever. Yeah, like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're like so angry, but and there's this whole thing of like, oh, some people perceive that either anger or upset as a sense of ungratefulness, yeah, and a sign of disrespect. And so I find again, just I'm not saying it's like only it's a monolith of Australia, but yeah, for speaking to the culture I've grown up in in white Australia is very much, yeah, like if you're angry and upset about things, then you're being disrespectful.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

And it's often used as a way of shutting down certain points of view as well.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

And I'm not saying that like my parents were really good, and both of them are really strong people, you know, they've got lots of opinion, you know. I grew up with both like really well-spoken, opinionated parents who aren't weren't just blobs moulded by the things around them. I know they did lots of change and they grew from where they came as they they continue to grow now. So I'm very lucky like that. Yeah. But there's this sort of passed-on sense of you don't question too much or get upset about too much.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

But we maintain the rage. Rage against the machine, rage against the machine. And probably just to wrap up, and you talked about throwing yourself into your work, and I always say the biggest piece of bullshit advice is that if you find work you love, you'll never work a day in your life. It's like absolute rubbish. And I see people who really get into areas that they love and totally burn themselves out. And also it's it's more than work, it's a big part of your identity. And I certainly understand that coming through politics where it's not just a job, it's the it's the way you live your life, to you know, and you do it because you deeply care about it. For people who might be listening who are in the same boat, how or what are you learning about kind of separation? Separation, separation of church and state. Yeah, what how or what are you learning? I know you're not you're you're on a journey there yourself, but what are you learning about it? And what might somebody else in the same boat find useful for just you've got to maintain your own energy.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

I don't know how helpful it is as advice because obviously I care so much about my work, so much of my identity is around that I feel a strong need to make an impact with how I spend my time. And so I have my I started from a place of I will do better work if I have more balance that helps start the internal conversation. Um again, that's probably speaking that's obviously speaking to a value set that is changing and needed to change, but just going, cool, I'll actually do better quality work. And because I genuinely again caring for people and helping people, so much of a part of it, reminding that I can help people better when I am better. I've grown up with such a hard-working family, like again, mum, six kids, she was working on stations from a teenager, my dad was working from really young, and then yeah, straight on stations and stuff. And you know, if I'd spend my weekends, like I'm gonna go work on the cattle muscle because that's fun. And being around like a constant need to be doing things, that's just gets drilled into you. Yeah, it's it has been drilled into here, and so even having to just go, it's okay to enjoy my life, and what's the point of living this life if I'm not gonna try and enjoy it sometimes? And also with that comes the guilt of knowing the immense privilege it it is to be in a spot where you're like, cool, I'm gonna try and enjoy my life more. Like, I feel yeah, so much yeah. I just it's like how how did I get so lucky that I can make that decision and put time in my life to try and yeah, do things like I was years without really seeing my friends outside of events or doing anything, and so now it's just trying to be a human again and enjoy life because I was really good at, especially in my early 20s when I started getting, I was like doing mainly freelancing across all different events and projects. I was a lot better at, you know, once a week I used to make sure I was like, I'll go to brunch and just draw, you know, and like do that for myself and trying to bring that back into my life. And yeah, I don't have one answer for it, but it's just being kinder and being allowed to enjoy life and again knowing that we live in a capitalist system that's becoming more fascist all the time, that wants us to be beaten down and tired and not enjoying things and feeling disempowered and confused, and defying that by being like, I'm gonna go to a comedy show, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

Enjoy is resistance. Love it. So if you're listening the Washington Way and Joy is resistance, but yeah, in all honesty, it is ab yeah, it's vitally important, and there is a lot going on in the world right now, and it can be overwhelming and feel overwhelming that taking time out from it can feel like something you should feel guilty about, but it's such an important part of being able to make a difference in whatever sphere you're in.

SPEAKER_00 53:40

And especially thinking about such large-scale things where I don't feel like I can, you know, in Gaza, the state of like indigenous rights in this country, uh, LGBTQIO plus rights, you know, all of these things are so big and global and they'll be ongoing. Like we'll never live in a world where mistakes aren't made, we don't have things to fix. Yeah, just trying to know that I am a stronger person for those things that I believe in after I've had a good sleep.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you chatting with me. And hopefully, you know, it might inspire a few people to just go out and see a show or just draw for the sake of drawing, exactly. And you know, or start to disassociate feeling of guilt with something that is just such a bringer of joy. Yeah. Thanks so much for just like having me and see you know, let me ramble on on this beam. It's great. So thank you so much. And um, if you want to check out what's coming on for Fringe, when can people expect the program to come out? May 1st at 9 a.m. Australian Central Standard Time. There you go. So we will share it for people as well, so you can check it out and get involved. Thank you. Thank you.