The safety foundation | Power earthing

Power earthing lays the foundation for a compliant and comprehensive electrical safety system. In this episode, Omega Red’s Dave Willets joins host Nick Marshall to unpack why earthing matters, reveal the hidden hazards that often go unnoticed, and break down the key components that make an earthing system truly effective. 

This includes: 

• Engineering fundamentals and risk factors of power earthing 
• Key safety functions of power earthing 
• Importance of managing fault currents 
• Core risks that earthing design must mitigate 
• Earth Potential Rise (EPR), touch potential, step potential and transfer potential 
• Earthing design for large contracts and key inputs 
• Shift from resistance-based design to voltage-based safety criteria 
• Factors for successful system execution and set-up 
• Commonly overlooked areas in power earthing and why projects often go wrong 

Thank you for watching or listening, we’ll see you in next month’s podcast! 

Thank you for listening to Omega Red's podcast. All information was accurate at the time of recording.

Omega Red is a UK market leader in lightning protection, height safety, earthing and surge protection.

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Transcript

Welcome And Podcast Mission

Nick Marshall 0:09

Hi everyone, I'm Nick Marshall, the Managing Director of Omega Red Group. I'd like to welcome you to another episode of Grounded in Safety. Anchored, Connected, Protected. A platform built to inform, educate and inspire those working in Power Earthing, Lightning Protection and Height Safety Services from design, installation, asset management through to repairs and everything else in between. At Omega Red Group, we firmly believe knowledge shared is safety multiplied. This podcast opens real conversation with industry experts, sharing insights, experiences, and practical guidance to help raise standards across our sector. Whether you're on site, in the office, or simply curious, there's something here for you. Our mission is simple. It's about raising the bar by connecting people, elevating expertise, and championing safety in everything that we do. Today we're diving into Power Earthing and thinking about the industry, how it's developed, changes in standards, and why it matters. I'm happy to say that today we're joined by Dave Willetts, who's our special projects manager. Hi Dave.

Dave Willetts 1:16

Hello, Nick.

Nick Marshall 1:17

How are you? Are you okay?

Dave Willetts 1:18

I'm fine. A bit cold.

Nick Marshall 1:19

It's a cold day today for recording this.

Dave Willetts 1:22

Yeah.

Nick Marshall 1:23

Just in way of kind of an introduction and part of the podcast, we'd like to give people a flavour of the pedigree of people we've got in front of us. So can you just give us a bit of an introduction of Dave Willetts, who you are, how long you've been in the industry, and kind of what drives you within your role?

Dave Willetts 1:37

Yeah, yeah. So I've been in the industry man and boy. Started at FERS, well-known company. Uh been in the same industry for 40 years.

Nick Marshall 1:49

Wow, forty years' experience.

Dave Willetts 1:50

Yeah, done everything in that industry. Started out as a steeplejack. SJ11, if anybody's any steeplejacks are watching.

Nick Marshall 2:00

Kind of what heights were you working to at that point? Because like episode two, we were talking about height safety with Tim, our technical manager.

Dave Willetts 2:06

Yeah, power stations, you know, multi-fluid chimneys, you name it. Yeah, so I've as they say, Jack of all, master of none.

Nick Marshall 2:16

And then kind of moving into the lightning protection, power earthing world, how did all that evolve?

Dave Willetts 2:21

Well, what happened is they changed the so way back when we used to have to do six months stints, so six months concrete repair, lightning protection, church restoration, all all the different aspects. And basically we got put onto the lightning protection side. Uh, because being steeplejack trained, they changed the standard and we did hundreds of retro fits. So obviously they needed the steeplejack side to gain the access. Yeah. And that's where it all spawned. Wow. That's where I came from.

Nick Marshall 2:55

Okay, so 40 years experience, you'll see some change in the industry during that time.

Dave Willetts 2:59

I have definitely some very good characters, uh-huh. Uh people, knowledge, you name it, yeah. Some massive uh industry changes.

Nick Marshall 3:07

What drives you in the role then, kind of now, obviously you've you've you've made some change, aren't you? But now there's managing special projects that that has quite a bit of responsibility. What what what drives you in the role?

Dave Willetts 3:23

Every day's just a learning day. Uh-huh's new. Uh-huh. Uh, you know, you find out different ways of doing things, the people around you, you try and teach them what you know. Yeah. Uh every day's different, especially in our game. Yeah. Because we could be earthing a 11 kV transform one day, yeah, and then we're on a nuclear power station.

Nick Marshall 3:43

Which is a there's a real change there in regards to what's required from a safety point of view, yeah, the technical components that require the specification that you're then having to do it to yeah.

Dave Willetts 3:54

Massive learning curves, uh-huh, uh you know, standards, it's brilliant. The nuclear industry as it is today, yeah, they brought some good things in, yeah, some good safety, uh, critical uh things.

Nick Marshall 4:06

And when I talk about pedigree as well, like if you just think about Hinckley Point, so talking about the nuclear is that you were involving that in its kind of conception from a from a service point of view, from an Omega perspective, weren't it?

Dave Willetts 4:18

Yeah, so 10 years in November was a uh part of that project. November uh 2016, first stepped on site. We did some early works, uh, but become part of that nuclear team and you know, value engineered, uh, and later on install you name it, we've done everything on there.

Nick Marshall 4:38

Yeah, I think it's really important when we're doing these podcasts is that we're wanting into educate customers as I said right in the opening there, but people that have walk the walk, talk the talk, and you you you're being immersed in those areas, and I think it gives you then the chance then to be able to to contribute and and give your your views and opinions in in those areas.

Dave Willetts 4:56

Yeah, yeah, and I've been in so many scenarios, it's uh it's quite I find it quite easy. Yeah, and I can translate the technical into the actual build, the buildability of it. That's where I specialise. Yeah, I put you know our clients at ease because there's always a way. Yes. Always.

Why Power Earthing Really Matters

Nick Marshall 5:16

And I love that mindset because people are looking for pragmatic solutions, are there? And I think we'll we'll we'll talk about some of the pedigree of the the projects you've been working on, what a good project looks like a little bit further into the podcast. So we said we wanted to focus on the kind of power earthing aspects of projects. Um I suppose the first starting point then is why why does power earthing matter? What what kind of goes through your mind when you're talking to a client and it's project conception is to these are kind of the the real important factors that you need to really think about.

Dave Willetts 5:47

Well, it's safety critical, so it's probably one of the most important, in my opinion, it is the most important uh part of an electrical system. So even uh, you know, uh private dwellings, so you know, it's there for a reason, it's a safety system. Yeah, so it's it's very important. But we can take the basics of that, you know, just a normal dwelling, yeah, but it's only ramped up over into industrial, and then you get into your power stations and everything else in between. So it's the basics of or the fundamentals are the same. Yes. It's just on a larger scale.

Nick Marshall 6:23

Yeah, which comes with different types of risk into about what you need to do in way of the solution then to fulfil the criteria that's being built against.

Dave Willetts 6:31

Yeah, and and you know, we we focus on there's a lot of things, isn't there? There's you know, fire risks, downtime. When you you know, when you we've got a a facility, a production facility, the downtime you don't need. Yeah. And it's a fundamental part of all that.

Nick Marshall 6:48

Uh-huh. So you mentioned that there's the different projects you're working on there, didn't you? And about then the different levels of uh KV transformers and the different requirements.

Dave Willetts 6:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you start at domestic, so you know, you basically consume unit, um the whole safety system around that is the earthing.

Nick Marshall 7:08

Yes.

Dave Willetts 7:08

Because the earthing allows a current flow, which then basically makes your you know your MCBs trip or your fuses pop. Yeah. And ultimately it's safety. Yes. There's no uh arcs, there's no flash, there's no um, you know, heating of cables because basically it cuts the power supply.

Nick Marshall 7:27

Yeah.

Dave Willetts 7:27

And that's what it's all about.

Nick Marshall 7:29

Lovely.

Dave Willetts 7:30

Later on, obviously, on the bigger projects, we then look at at keeping people safe and things like that. So we're going to a different realm.

Nick Marshall 7:38

Yeah. And what have you kind of learned in the role then in in the 40 years and where you are now when you're you're setting off those projects and you're talking about the power earthing and the fundamentals of it? I'm guessing in industry, people have there's different standards, right? And I get that, and we've decided not to go into that detail today because there's

Dave Willetts 7:56

There are a lot.

Touch And Step Risks Explained

Nick Marshall 7:57

there's a lot, and we'll probably put those to one side. This is more about the principles. Yes, just in way of like when it's setting off and people looking at the power earth, and what goes through people's mind when you get involved and you're involved at the start, or if you get pulled in and kind of mid power, what what do you see as being kind of the core fundamentals that are either in place or sometimes are missing?

Dave Willetts 8:17

Well, a lot of it and a lot of my job is um obviously we could have a civils contractor that's not electrically minded. Yeah, so it's trying to instill that importance of what we're doing and why we're doing it. And you know, you've got to get that right, or society that they're building won't work.

Nick Marshall 8:36

Uh-huh.

Dave Willetts 8:37

Ultimately, it's it's pointless.

Nick Marshall 8:39

Okay.

Dave Willetts 8:39

So I I try and help those who don't know just to make it simple. And it the more simple we can make it, it's the better it is for everyone.

Nick Marshall 8:50

Okay. So I think we talk about sometimes the uh hidden hazards, don't we? And we've mentioned about in in in publications that we put out there about touch step and transfer potentials. So if we start moving into those areas, what are the the fundamentals that people really need to think about in in each of those areas?

Dave Willetts 9:07

Yeah, well, I can make that quite simple because uh

Nick Marshall 9:10

That's what's we're gonna do keep it simple for our listeners.

Dave Willetts 9:12

Just keep it simple. So uh what happens is obviously um so we'll take touch uh we'll go touch step first. Okay. So um what happens is you have a a fault, a high voltage uh fault. Yeah, obviously that uh it needs to escape, so it disperses into the ground and it goes via the earthing system, and obviously because the soil that we're in that you know that the earthing's in, that has a resistance, so it it makes it goes into that soil as well.

Nick Marshall 9:43

Okay.

Dave Willetts 9:43

So for example, on the touch potential, if you're uh you've got this uh obviously voltage, high voltage, if you're touching a gatepost or something metallic, um, then you've got an issue because obviously the voltage is then coming through that metallic item through you down to earth. Uh-huh. That's what we need to either stop or make safe.

Nick Marshall 10:08

Okay.

Dave Willetts 10:09

Very similar with step. So obviously that's you know, the rule of thumb with step is a meter. So you've got that voltage obviously coming up one leg, yeah, going through the body, and then down the other. Yeah. You know, it can be fatal. Yeah. So it's our job to make that safe. Uh-huh. Um, and then we'll go into the realms of how we do that, what what do we use, you know, and and what does that look like.

Nick Marshall 10:36

And what kind of things go through the methodology and the thought process? Because I think in when we're talking to clients, isn't it? It's about how we how we can eradicate, how we can minimise that risk, is what are the the kind of the fundamental conversations that take place in those areas?

Dave Willetts 10:50

It's just explaining that if you bring everything to the same potential, uh-huh, we're we can make it safe. And that doesn't have to be anything fancy, it could be a simple bond, you know, a potential bonding. Yeah. There's there's various ways and means of doing that. We just like say, we just need to make that simple and relate that to something that they know. Yeah you know, reinforcing rebars, grand types, uh-huh. They're all very common things.

Nick Marshall 11:17

Okay. And how receptive are customers to those areas, or what what what barriers do you see sometimes, or lack of understanding? Because I suppose when we're talking technical, and depending on who we're talking to as well, that there might be different methodologies that people want to apply, or what we've always done it this way, then must be a little bit of how do we find a uh a right outcome which is keeping people safe and is probably giving you the best solution as well.

Getting The Design Brief Right

Dave Willetts 11:42

Yeah, I think the best approach is to be honest. So if you don't understand or don't know, then be honest.

Nick Marshall 11:47

Yeah.

Dave Willetts 11:48

We've got a starting point, and then obviously from there, we just interpret what we've got the drawings, the designs, the and then we'll go on to the technical and we review all that, basically put that into what you're doing as the client, you know, what what is your part? Are you building this, etc.? And then just make it and take it from there. But obviously, my role is to tell you how to do that. Yes, yeah, and that and that's what I think I'm good at.

Nick Marshall 12:17

Yeah, yeah. And I think you mentioned there about the the kind of that design phase, then isn't it? And it's that's probably the starting point. So, what what do you see as being the key fundamentals when we get to that design stage? What are the elements that people should be thinking about? Yeah, because that probably makes it easier then to go if you've got a bit of a template to follow and that methodology, it's about that consistent outcome that you're gonna get, then isn't it?

Dave Willetts 12:39

Yeah, it's it's so a lot of the things that we find is um our actual clients don't know what they want. Uh-huh. They do roughly, yeah, but don't know specifics.

Nick Marshall 12:50

Okay.

Dave Willetts 12:51

Um, so that's an important part.

Nick Marshall 12:53

Yeah. Uh where does that happen? Where does that break down? Is it that the the the scope of the work that they're being allocated, the the for from a tier one contractor that they're contracting to? Yeah. Where does that break down start? Because I think it's

Dave Willetts 13:05

Well, there's a you you need a clear understanding of what it is. So an earthing system takes up many shapes and forms. So, you know, it could be an earthing system for lightning protection, it could be an earthing system for electrical equipment. Yeah. Um, a lot of a lot of that nobody knows. They don't know how long it's been in the ground, they don't know if it's fit for purpose.

Nick Marshall 13:24

Yeah.

Dave Willetts 13:25

You know, or is it safe for you to work on, for example? And that's not me, that's the clients, um, engineers. So we look at all that and we try and get to the bottom of that, but it's very, very difficult sometimes. Yeah. Because we're walking onto a site and we haven't a clue what's there. Uh-huh. We just need to try and find out what's working. Yeah. Is it still fit for purpose? Can we use it again? Yeah. If not, let's scrap it, start again.

Soil Testing And Modelling Basics

Nick Marshall 13:52

Okay. So if you were starting again and you were thinking about giving a blueprint to customers to go, if you followed these step-by-step processes in your check-in question, what type of things would you suggest to them? Because I'm guessing people listen to this, there'll be different someone moving new into a role, or someone that says, I want to adapt and learn, and maybe my ways of working may have changed based on the market changing in that there's almost that value engineering that comes out, there's a different way of doing it, and lessons learnt from projects that are taking place. That's great when you're working where you're working, you're lifting and shifting. Going, this is what we learn actually. If we were to do it, just talk us through some of those.

Dave Willetts 14:31

Yeah, yeah. So um, you know, it all starts off with the fundamentals. So um we've got a site, um, we we haven't a clue what the soil resertivity is like, not a clue. So we start off with the there's a number of things. So always start off with a Wenner test, okay. Um, and that's how we test the resistance of the earth in order to put it into the design. Yeah, obviously, not all sites are perfect, so you need quite a bit of distance for that. Yeah. Um, quite a bit of space, sorry. So we you know, you can do a driven rod, for example, and test that as you're driving it, test the resistance to earth every metre. So, as you can imagine, you know, a lot of uh confined areas, you know, they're all fenced off, etc. Um, and it's not just a matter of throwing tapes and rods in the ground. There's it's it's there's a lot more to it than that. And if we could just throw tapes and rods in the ground, that'd be brilliant, but that's we can't. So um we so we use the Wenner test, that comes back, and then we use uh uh seed eggs, okay. Uh and the most bits of that, which you'll we'll come on to later to to keep that side safe. So as long as we get all the information and all that information is listed, and when we send it out, it's actually I I can't remember how many times we list it, yeah, but it's several times.

Nick Marshall 16:00

Uh huh.

Dave Willetts 16:01

If we can get all that information back, we can run the designs and it and it makes things run smoothly. Yeah. A lot of it is we don't get the information, so we can't run the design, which means we can't do the system design.

Nick Marshall 16:15

Uh-huh. So, what does it look like when that scenario comes? Because I've I know working alongside you sometimes once we get that information great, but other times then we're we're being asked to deliver on a scope where we've only got kind of this one view and it's about how we then try and work collaboratively with the client. So, what what things will you try and help the client with to facilitate that process?

Dave Willetts 16:35

So, obviously, if we come back to design and that design, uh we're and it's crucial we get the actual uh information because um, you know, for example, we it could be you need 10 50 metre boreholes, for example. So a hell of a lot of room. Yeah, no one's got that much space, it's very rare if you get it. So then you look at different alternatives and other designs, you know, the mass of earth, can we put more tapes in? Can we use something else? Yeah. Um, but um, a lot of the time people don't understand what it takes to get an ohmage. Yeah. And obviously we're looking it comes with specified ohmage, or you know, we're all often look for below one ohm. Okay. Unless. Yeah. So getting the mass of earth in into the ground to make it safe is not always achievable how people think it is. Uh-huh. And that's a big frustration.

Nick Marshall 17:26

Okay. Where does that lack of understanding come from then? What what people think about where it's pretty straightforward you should just do X, Y, and Z. Yeah. What how do we change some of that misconception? Or what is it where people might go, I'm one of those per people, but now you're telling me this is what I should be looking for. Yeah.

Dave Willetts 17:41

Well, a lot of times, for example, we could be doing, you know, EV took off and uh we're doing 11 KV substations, but the supplies, you know, point of connection and the supplies already in.

Nick Marshall 17:52

Yes.

Dave Willetts 17:52

Well, it's too late already. Yeah. We need to be well on board before that. Uh-huh. So we can then do the design that will marry up to everything that the site's doing.

Nick Marshall 18:02

Okay.

Why Late Involvement Causes Problems

Dave Willetts 18:03

So um it's it's great when you're speaking to your electrical engineers because they understand it, yeah. They get our terminologies and lingo, but when you're speaking to civils, it you know, it can fall. So um it's better to get us get us in early, we'll explain everything, and then we can move on. Uh-huh. So, really, it's getting involvement at an early stage in order to progress that site and make it safe.

Nick Marshall 18:28

Okay. Which is fundamentally into like everyone wants to make sure that whatever we're delivering is is is done safe based on its design, but also then how we then do the job in itself and definitely making sure that we've got the right um rams in place, and ultimately the risk assessment is specific to that site location rather than being being generic.

Dave Willetts 18:48

Yeah, and our pedigree, we do a lot of national grid. Okay. Um so national grid infrastructure, a lot of our pedigree and a lot of our systems are based on what national grid wanted. Yeah. We've just adopted that, and it and it's really, you know, it's safety critical. Yeah. Uh we've got dedicated in uh earthing gangs that it's it's just general knowledge to them. Yeah. So that's what we do, and that's why we're good at what we do.

Nick Marshall 19:17

What do you think we learn from the the national grid contracts? Obviously, the best practice of then making sure that that then falls down then into the rest of that supply chain. But what do you think we've we've learned as a business and what's helped you shape your discussions with with the NG?

Dave Willetts 19:33

Well, if you think about it, so uh national grid, um it doesn't matter what what um facility you're building, yeah, you know, especially major infrastructures, they're gonna feed into grid. Of course, yeah. Well, let's just let's take that, yeah, advise everyone what grid one or what's the norm for grid. You know, there's these little differences, these you know, water authorities have their own, MOD have their own. There's twists and turns there, but if we stick to uh the national grid stuff, then I don't see uh anyone you know, it could be a uh battery storage, it could be uh grid upgrades, anything. They can't go wrong because that's what we've adopted and that's what we take through. So that's what I always advise on because I think it it's the best, they've got some of the best technical um policies there is.

Learning From National Grid Standards

Nick Marshall 20:29

So what do you see as some of the barriers are like? Because when you say about it, is it because people think it might be onerous? It could be we we don't have the skill set to be able to do that. Because if you're saying this is what good looks like, not people want to jump to that, especially when you talk about this specific area in regards to the the level of risk that comes with it. What what do you see from a client conversation? Do you see everybody snap your hand off, or still that reservation of how we're gonna manage it?

Dave Willetts 20:57

And a lot a a lot of um people, and um I'm not gonna um mention any names, they just see it as tapes and rods, like I said earlier. Yeah, it's not that it's safety critical. Yeah, it comes, you know, so it's a quality um it's a quality installation that we need to deliver in order to accept any high voltage faults that are put onto that. Uh-huh. Um it's our duty to protect people, yeah. Make sure the designs are correct, make sure it's in installed correctly. And that's what we do. We offer a turnkey solution. So we we can do, you know, starting from from the Wenner test, we can do all the designs, we can do the install. And the good thing about Omega is that we've got that delivery capability, uh which is nationwide. Uh-huh. Uh and if we need to change a design whilst we're on site, we can. We can do it live.

Nick Marshall 21:53

Uh uh.

Dave Willetts 21:54

And I think that's a really good good attribute to Omega, yeah. We can change things there and then.

Nick Marshall 22:00

Um have you got a kind of example where you've had some client interaction on a project where they've started off on a certain direction with we've come in at the right time and you've been able to then do some value engineering and make sure then people started to.

Dave Willetts 22:13

Yeah, many. Just going back to Hinkley Point, that started off, you know, with a design that's from Flammerville. Yeah. Um that that's not necessarily what we do in the UK. Uh-huh. Uh we use a lot of tape instead of cable. Uh-huh. So with how we engineered that, use tape, obviously stops all the bird nesting, problems welding, everything. So, yeah, that that's just one simple example. Uh-huh. You know, with how you engineered that, look at best practice, look at alternative, uh-huh, um, put those proposals forward. And if nuclear have taken that on board, then tells you that I don't yeah, I don't think there's any better stamp for that.

Nick Marshall 22:55

No, no. So if you think then when we've won projects and you're then you've you've got involved and it gets down to execution, and everyone, I think Mike Tyson once said everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face. And it's so I think sometimes where project fell is in that execution stage, and you've been involved with some real uh high volume, high high value projects, and obviously Hinkley Point, but various other ones.

Dave Willetts 23:20

Oh, it's massive technical projects, you know, impulse generators, yeah, uh you name it. Yeah, I've I've seen it.

Nick Marshall 23:26

Yeah, and what what have you seen as a blueprint in there? If people are going to execute in the right way, where where does it fall short? And we want people to take these little golden nuggets away that goes, actually, we've got a project coming up, and is are those fundamentals in place for us to be really successful? And someone here that's working in different sectors and seeing different customers or with different cultures and have a different mindset in how they want to apply it, and it could be through lack of understanding, it might be the the first larger project they've taken on. You've walked those shoes across multiple sectors and multiple clients. What what have you seen?

Dave Willetts 24:01

Well, it's you know, it's everyone knows better sometimes, and I'm I'm ashamed to say that. Um I sometimes say I know better, but you know, every day is a school day for me. So um I've got mul I've got millions of examples. So, you know, for example, I have to deal with so many trades. It's not just Dave, it's not just Omega. Yeah, we've got civils, we've got joiners, you know, steel erectors, uh fence, you name it. But it's all part of the same thing. Yeah, we're all coming to the same end.

Nick Marshall 24:34

Uh-huh.

Making Designs Buildable On Site

Dave Willetts 24:35

Uh, and it's trying to make those trades understand what we're doing and why we're doing it, yeah, and how to do it best, and that's what we do. Okay. So once they get that, yeah, you see a light bulb, the light bulb moment, and they understand and they understand why they need to do it.

Nick Marshall 24:52

Yeah.

Dave Willetts 24:52

And we all get on board and then move and move move along that way.

Nick Marshall 24:56

And I know that you spoke in the past as well, and we've had kind of debriefs about projects, the importance of drawings and about one version of the truth, and about how you get to it. And I know that designs will keep changing, won't they? Yeah, I think you mentioned before, then about we have that in place that seed eggs any regards to them feeds into the overall design.

Dave Willetts 25:16

Yeah. So seed eggs will give you your basic design.

Nick Marshall 25:20

Yeah.

Dave Willetts 25:20

That'll design out any problems. Um, and then you go on to back onto your touching step potentials, which the malts bit of seed eggs, what we use, that'll that'll negate all that. Um so yeah, it's um it's keeping that site safe, it's just it's keeping it safe in all aspects. So yeah, it's it's it's the um back office as I call it. So your seed eggs and your designers, we put that into a basic drawing, but that drawing is only as good as the drawing. Yes, it doesn't really reflect true life. So when we're on a muddy site, you know, up to a top of a well is in mud, that drawing's irrelevant. We have to make it work on that site, yeah. And that's the importance of it. That's that drawing is just a guide. Yeah, in reality, that's probably not how it's gonna be installed. It doesn't matter as long as it complies to all the you know all the standards and everything else, we can make it work. So fundamentally, the drawing is the key. Yeah, we can change the drawing. Yeah, you know, don't don't let that draw ing stop that work. Yeah, because there is ways and means around it. We just change the drawing to suit, yeah. We'll change, you know, we'll we'll adapt to that site.

Nick Marshall 26:42

Yeah. I I think you mentioned before as well about the importance of the supervision, the quality checks.

Dave Willetts 26:47

Yeah, and this is something else, so you know, national grid and uh uh nuclear. So what we've done, we've adopted what they do, so all our ITPs, RAMs, everything else is uh based around what we've learned from that. Yeah, and it's crucial that we record the evidence. That evidence can be, you know, you could I think um on a on a nuclear it's a hundred percent inspection, but you can narrow that down, you can do 10% testing or whatever, yeah. But ultimately, it's very, very important to keep that data, yeah. You know, and you know what they've done at Grenfell's brought a new um

Nick Marshall 27:26

Build ing safety act.

Dave Willetts 27:27

Yeah, competences, you know, so it's crucial.

Nick Marshall 27:32

Yeah, and we mentioned that in episode when we were talking to when it comes to lightning protection, but they're different to Power Earthing about that level of technical competence, the MVQs that go alongside of it, making sure that the trainer's been fit for purpose, that actually you're training all of your team rather than you've just got two great guys, but then everyone else is their base standard is it's it's pretty low.

Dave Willetts 27:54

Yeah, and it's we all need to know the same thing. Yes, yeah. If we all know the same thing, we're all on the same page and we all do the same thing. So the more we standardise it, the better, in my opinion.

Nick Marshall 28:02

Yeah. And when you're in conversations with client and we we're talking about the the kickoff phase of a project, what what stakeholders are you talking to in there? I know you mentioned there's all different disciplines, but who are the type of people that you're talking to, and where do you see remits change? Because everyone will have their own lens won't they about what the looks through and what's important to me. And I've again I've been kind of fortunate to sit alongside you in some of those meetings, but it'd be good to kind of understand how you control that because you've got different voices in the room with different opinions, but we've got to get to a point where what's the output.

Dave Willetts 28:36

We can move on, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, well, as you well know, the meeting I think you intended with me, you know, that so we're talking to um a tier one, uh, and that's what we've always done.

Nick Marshall 28:49

Yeah.

Drawings, Inspections And Competence

Dave Willetts 28:49

Well, no, I know we've always done it that way, but there's alternatives, uh huh. Them alternatives are better, they could be more cost effective, yeah. You know, it it's as simple as that. It's it's you you you deliver to those people the best thing you can, yeah. And that is an alternative. Uh-huh. You may not have seen that alternative or understand it, but it's our job to then break it down, as I said, keeping it simple.

Nick Marshall 29:17

Yeah, yeah.

Dave Willetts 29:18

Break it down into what you understand.

Nick Marshall 29:21

Yeah.

Dave Willetts 29:21

And ultimately, if we we are happy with it, because we're the specialist and we're gonna sign it off, then you should rely on us. And that that's basically what we do. But you know the scenarios we've been in, we sit with client, you know, end client. Yeah, and you know, some of these they're they're real big, yeah, big clients, so we need we need to sell it to them, uh-huh. We need to sell it to the construction team, yeah, the electrical team. As long as you keep it, you know, simple, yeah, I think we can and we generally do.

Nick Marshall 29:55

Yeah. And when you've got all those people in a room, then like the but like the top ten, there must be a top ten of overlooked things when it comes to power earthing. Like, what do you see as the hey, let's just take a set of back, we're running before we walk, and these are probably some of the the fundamentals that we've either we're a bit woolly on, we've got answers to a few of them, but what what do you see as some of the the things that we overlook?

Dave Willetts 30:17

Well, the where do I start?

Nick Marshall 30:21

The beginning.

Dave Willetts 30:22

Yeah, yeah. So we'll start at the beginning. So the design criteria for a start, if if you don't actually know what you want, yeah, then I don't know how I'm expected to design that. Uh-huh. Um, so we'll start there. So ultimately, you're you're you're installing a system and it could be you know 11 kV up to 400. So you obviously know what you want, yeah, or think you know what you want. So that's where we'll start. And then everything in between that, it's um how you're constructing it, what's it constructed of? Yeah, you know, what ground type are we on? Um does it affect anything beyond our site? That's a big overlook. Okay.

Nick Marshall 31:05

So just give me a bit more evidence, evidence then. What's that? What should people be thinking about?

Dave Willetts 31:10

Um so what you can do, obviously, uh you've got this um high voltage fault. Okay. Uh, and what what that does, that that can affect everything. So obviously the the this voltage has gone into the ground, and it can affect other so uh other services, telecoms, um they they normally the terminology is a hot site. Okay. And when I say that, people will know what I'm saying. Yeah.

Nick Marshall 31:39

What about people that do n't then. So when we say a hot site, what we're saying.

Dave Willetts 31:42

Yeah, it's um basically where um we can't design uh so what you do when you do the design, you design design the fault contour to be contained within your site boundaries. Right, okay. So obviously when you do that, you're not affecting anyone.

Nick Marshall 31:56

Yeah.

Dave Willetts 31:57

But often

Nick Marshall 31:58

You've got things piping in.

Dave Willetts 31:59

You've got services entering and leaving, you've got a fault contour that you can't contain, you know, obviously because the earthing is what it is. Yeah. Uh so we then put a fault back onto a service. So, you know, that could take many shapes and forms, telecom, pipes, yeah, cables. Um, so then you've got to do to your care, to others, so you have to inform the local authority. And a lot of people see it as a bad thing. It's not a bad thing if you know what to do and and let everyone know.

Nick Marshall 32:28

Yeah. So control the controllable, isn't it?

Dave Willetts 32:30

Exactly, yeah. So we could have, you know, this fault on our site, but it's put a uh that fault's then gone into a service, yeah. And but you've got someone working on the end of that service that's nowhere near your site. So it's things like that you've got to remember. Yeah. Um safety critical, it's crucial that they know. Yeah. But if you've done all the due diligence and informed the right people, there's not an issue with it.

Nick Marshall 32:53

I think you mentioned as well before about that limitation of space, isn't it? As well, like for the earthing grid and how that operates. What yeah, the comes that obviously comes back to design though, doesn't it? Fundamentally, is if you've not got the design right and then you're trying to put it into a space where

Risks That Travel Beyond Your Fence

Dave Willetts 33:06

Yeah, yeah, it's like you know, putting a square peg into a round hole. Sometimes you can't do it. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, a lot of people don't think about the fences or um, you know, buildings that are just off your site, or you know, safety distances, there's there's all kinds of things. Yeah. Um, it's overlooked a lot of the time. And it it's very often we get a call saying, Come on, can you have a look at my fence? Like, well, we could have told you that, but we didn't get involved in design stage where we've been brought on too late again.

Nick Marshall 33:40

Yeah, and I think some of that isn't it is like it's the wood for the trees when you're immersed in a project, you're looking through your lens, it's right, I'm I'm doing my piece of work, but having that outside view and probably more of a holistic view, enables you then to go, let me have a look at all those different touch points, and have we thought about all those areas before then we move into that design stage? Because this is what we've seen from previous projects, and like I said, that the what you've seen due due to the value and the the size of the projects you've been involved with, it it adds value back into a customer supply chain.

Dave Willetts 34:12

Yeah, yeah, because if you get us involved at the right time, we have you thought about this, have you thought about that? You know, every we'll throw try and throw every scenario at it. You know, it's not all relevant, but sometimes you there might be just that yeah, you know, that piece of gold there that you can you'll pick up on that. And I've never thought about that. Yeah. And just things like that.

Nick Marshall 34:32

Well, you said it, it's like every day is a learning day, ain't it, for all of us? Yeah, and it's not until you sit, you reflect, and then you take that time to oh, what's lessons learned? And we're taking those lessons learned, and hopefully then you you get progression because you learn and then you you you adapt and you you implement in a different way, and yeah, that that's the beauty of kind of being human, is that we'll all fail, but it's about what you learn from it.

Dave Willetts 34:57

Exactly, yeah. And you know, one of my major roles is taking that technical aspect. So your designers are all very well and good, and they sat there, aren't they, in the in their ivory towers, we all say, but you know, they sat there in the office doing a design that ultimately may not work because that site won't allow that to work. Yeah, well, it's our job to to make it work, uh-huh, and that's we are really good at it.

Nick Marshall 35:22

Yeah, yeah. So well, it leads us on quite nice then we say kind of where we add value. So if you think about the Omega proposition and you as a special projects manager, and coming if I'm a client listening to this and just a self-less plug-in a little bit on this podcast that goes, where do you think we add value into these big projects that a customer would go, do you know something? I probably need to engage because I've liked what I've heard, and I think you can bring that pedigree based on you you track record, yeah. And across multiple sectors as well, we're not just into one area, we've got infrastructure, energy, rail, utility, mission critical. We've we've got really great examples of where we've different nuances, different working methodology in our people apply. So, where do you think we we add value?

Dave Willetts 36:10

Yeah, well, it's not just you've just touched on a on loads of things there, you know. Um you've got DSEAR and all that that you have to bring in, static and everything else. And what it what what it is, we we know about all this stuff, yeah, and we can combine it. A lot of people are just segmented and they will deal with you know power, they'll deal with deal with uh DSEAR, they'll deal with, you know. Well, it's our job to bring that all together and make that system work for all aspects, not just one, we're there for everything, and that's where the lightning bit comes in as well, and the surge and you know, all the add-ons.

Nick Marshall 36:49

Yeah.

Dave Willetts 36:50

So and we our knowledge allows us to do that, but it allows us to do it so we can meet the specifications, you know, make everything safe, and and we're really good at it, uh-huh, in my opinion.

Nick Marshall 37:04

Yeah, and that's you, and we want to get the voice of the customer, don't we? But we we we get taken to different contracts, which shows we must be doing some things right. So, what do you think some of the key components obviously? We've talked about C days, we've talked about that end-to-end capability, the design. Where else do we come into our own? Then obviously, DSEAR background? Any other areas that you think people need to understand that because maybe they just see us as this that this kind of bland provider of well, you're just in and out transaction, but actually it's probably a lot of people.

Dave Willetts 37:34

No, no, oh there's a hell of a lot. My my my whole working life is dedicated to the client and what they want. Yes, we you know, some some are more demanding than others, yeah. Um, but ultimately we're all we're doing the same thing everywhere, you know. And if I if I can just make them understand that that earthing is critical, yeah, uh, we've won. Yes. Because everyone they'll they'll not just use that on that contract, it will stay with them for the rest of their life. Yeah. I deal with engineers that I've dealt with 30 years ago, you know, and then they appreciate what you gave them then.

Nick Marshall 38:11

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's probably worth noting about where you add value within your role as well, based on the the assessor role that you're going through at the moment as well. Yeah, yeah. That's a different kind of viewpoint, and there's uh going out and making sure we we can assess competence in the right way and help people move to the levels then required there in regards to the the role that they're undertaking with it within Omega.

Dave Willetts 38:30

Yeah, yeah. Well, back in the day we were all national grid persons, minimum. Yeah. Um, obviously, national uh we have CPs and everything. Yeah. Uh but we're you know, we started our working life being uh national grid persons. So we've grown up with that strict um safety.

Solving Real-World Site Constraints

Nick Marshall 38:49

Yeah, and that's another point then when we talk about safety as well, is when we look about what we deliver in kind of our safety culture on these big projects, what what feedback have clients giving you when they've seen us kind of we can sell the drink, aren't we? We can tell them we can do it, but it's not until your boots on the ground and do you live and breathe it in your culture? So what what do customers tell you and see what the what where evidence on a day-to-day basis that goes, do you know something you have delivered what it said on the tin?

Dave Willetts 39:17

Yeah, well we're obviously we're we're up a we're up front with our safety, yeah, you know, and we've got uh well we're uh some might say we we're we we're safety mad, but um I don't believe

Nick Marshall 39:31

A nice place to be though isn't it.

Dave Willetts 39:32

Oh yeah, yeah. Honestly, when you're working on a live substation, it definitely is a good place to be. Yeah, um we're quite open with it. We our Rams, you know, offer exactly what we do. Uh-huh. They're suited to what we do because we've done it so many times. Yeah, our guys know what they're doing, they know how to do it safely. Yeah you know, we could go into bridging procedures, everything. There's there's there's loads of stuff out there. Uh-huh. You know, and your normal civils guy who's you know running tapes in, for example, they won't understand there's a safety distance. Yeah. So we bring all that on board. We can from design stage, we can even start, you know, if if we're encroaching on a National Grid substation or a uh terminal tower, for example, we we can um red zone, I call it red zoning. So once we get into a certain distance of that, we need to approach that in a different manner. Yeah, we need a different set of rams for that. Uh-huh. Because this is where you're bridging and things come in.

Nick Marshall 40:35

With a thermal heater and just see exactly where Yeah, yeah.

Dave Willetts 40:38

And uh and uh to be honest, some of those, you know, uh terminal towers that they they there's some fault. Yes. So we don't want to be, you know, just rolling pieces of tape up to that.

Nick Marshall 40:50

Yeah. And I think one of the things problem solving on complex projects is probably an added value into that. You're like saying you've you've walked the walk, you've been and you you know what's worked, what hasn't.

Dave Willetts 41:01

I've crawled about in rebar cages, yeah. Yeah, looking for an alternative. Yeah, yeah. Um we and and we do. Right. You know, everyone's fixated with welding rebars and things like that. Yeah. But you know, you can do it, there's a there are alternatives. Uh huh. It it comes back to your design. You can go back to design and change everything and make it easier for everyone. Yeah. You know, and that's easier for civils, it's easier for us, it's easier for everyone.

Nick Marshall 41:26

And how are you seeing that you took one of the uh one of the sectors energy? How are you seeing that then in regards obviously big upgrade from a national grid perspective? In there, you you've got a lot of um wind farms then then coming back into back into the uh the UK.

Dave Willetts 41:42

The converter stations.

Nick Marshall 41:43

Converter stations, yeah, exactly.

Dave Willetts 41:44

 You know, data.

Nick Marshall 41:45

Yeah, how are you, and data, how how are you seeing that materialise and about the maturity of people working on those projects? Because there's some there's some big ones out there, isn't there?

Dave Willetts 41:56

Some massive ones, yeah. You know, the uh a lot of the engineers cut the teeth on one and learn from that. Uh-huh. But you there's no, you know, what if you've been in the game as long as we have, yeah, you can get rid of all that. Uh huh. You can design it differently, you can install it differently. It's it's I I I don't I speak about it as it's quite simple.

Nick Marshall 42:19

Yeah.

Dave Willetts 42:20

But when you don't understand and don't know, it is very, you know, it's technically uh challenging. Installation-wise, it's it's challenging. Yeah. So that's what we're here for.

Nick Marshall 42:31

Yeah. I think you mentioned before as well, you're only as good as the the men that are delivering it, and now we've got some great colleagues within Omega that again comes back to that competence level, the quality, doing it safely. It's really as good as how we onboard those individuals and put them to work, yeah. Make sure that the the briefs are right, but we have to be agile as well in the things that we come across.

Dave Willetts 42:49

So that agility is another thing that people, you know, everyone thinks it can happen overnight. That's not a thing. No, no. You know, I've been on uh projects where they give you two hours' notice. Uh-huh. That's not a thing.

Suppliers, Agility And Market Change

Nick Marshall 43:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also that you need to think about how you're putting those people to work, yeah, the communication. So yeah, there's a we could run to site, but actually what are we going into first of all, and actually are we gonna add maximum value but also do it in a in a safe way.

Dave Willetts 43:17

Yeah, I suppose you that drops back onto our suppliers. Yes. You know, we they're brilliant, brilliant. I've and you know, some of the special projects that I've done, I've I've had to go abroad for materials. Yeah. And I'll honestly say I've never had a problem. And you know, as long as you've got the time and you know what you want, everything should happen. Yeah. Um you know, dealing with China and places like that, um, to get special materials because I couldn't get it in the UK. Yeah. Um yeah, so and we really we've only got three suppliers, so um it's not a massive network of people, but each one of them I rely on.

Nick Marshall 44:00

Yeah, and I think episode four of the podcast, we're going to be bringing some of those people in to talk about how they see the market, what it looks like from a surge point of view, because ultimately we want different voices being heard. So I think that the relationship we've got with them, and we they work in different sectors as well, that they can bring different insight. And this is about some of the parts into the more we can join all that up and share that knowledge with our customer base puts us in a really good position to add value. I would say purpose plus knowledge equals value. Um kind of that's what your role is to facilitate all of that.

Dave Willetts 44:34

It's to bring it all together. Yeah. And that that's what I'm doing. Uh-huh. You know, bringing everyone together, having a common focus and piece in it. It's a jigsaw at the end of the day. We're just putting it together.

Nick Marshall 44:46

Some great areas we've covered off there, Dave, and I think it it shows a pedigree, shows you're open and transparent. That what you see is what you get, but there's a there's a level of knowledge and insight, like I say, it goes back to that purpose, knowledge value that we've cut our teeth in certain areas. We'll done some things wrong along the way because we're human, but it's about how you evolve, change, and apply something different in that next alliteration of how you go about a project. But we're lifting and shifting lessons learned from an array of different projects which help us give us a sector lens, yeah, but also then through a customer lens based on what does what does good look like.

Dave Willetts 45:23

Yeah, over a span of 40 years. Yeah, yeah. You can't pay for that.

Key Takeaways And Closing

Nick Marshall 45:27

No, no, no. Well, you can because we want customers to pay for it. So if you think about some of the the the golden nuggets then like when we do these podcasts, we we're asking everyone that's contributing just to take a step back and go, we've covered off a lot of areas. Hopefully, people have taken. Oh, I need to think about that based on how we approach projects. What are some of your kind of key takeaways that you want people to think that I'm going into this project, I need to get my ducks in a row, but what do those ducks look like?

Dave Willetts 45:55

We'll go back to basics again. You know, have you had your soil test carried out? Have have you uh had a uh earthing system designed? Yeah, is that right? Have you given the right information? Um and like we're we've not really, you know, the seed eggs bit of it is very important. We sort of like brush past that, but yeah, ultimately, them guys they know what they're doing, they do the design, but they can only put in you know what you give them. Uh-huh. Uh and then obviously it comes out to us then, and then we go out to clients and say, this is what you do. You know, it might mean nothing on uh on your design, yeah, but this is what it means. So that's very important. So, you know, rubbish in, rubbish out, yeah. It's uh old adage. Yeah, um and you know, the collaboration you can't you can't do without it. Yeah, it it's it's crucial. So collaboration of everyone, every party on site that's affected by the installation and uh you know of a power network. Yeah, it it's it's fundamental that you you all know what you're doing.

Nick Marshall 47:05

And I know through your kind of discovery and validation stage, you're looking at kind of the the driving force of that validation, the key stakeholders, what are their needs and wants, stakeholder mapping people, and saying, right, I need to bring these people in, bringing in that supply chain as well, like maybe from a manufacturing point of view. Yeah, yeah. Obviously, then you're talking to engineers on site and how we then put them to work and we we mobilise in the right way. So there's the connection part, you're that you're the glue eye. Yeah, it's making sure that that glue is strong when we talk about all of this, because it's only as good as goes back to what we said, everyone has a plan until they're punched in the face. Exactly. That plan that plan needs to be fool-proof based on lessons learned.

Dave Willetts 47:46

They never are. There's always there's always uh something that something will go wrong, yeah. Which I haven't planned for it, but uh

Nick Marshall 47:53

Which is agility though, didn't you? Is about like you have to be agile, you have to be changed.

Dave Willetts 47:57

Just being able to to change that and make it work for you. Yeah, so and I've I've never had a job that we can't do. Yeah, and um hand on heart.

Nick Marshall 48:06

Yeah, I would have I think some of the customer feedback tells us that as well. So I think that's that's great to listen to any.

Dave Willetts 48:12

Clients don't necessarily want that as a solution, but yeah, it's it we've always overcome the problem.

Nick Marshall 48:19

It's honesty, transparency, it's about being constructive in feedback into it, but ultimately a client will have it in a certain way, and we can make suggestions, but then you have to kind of go, well, you you're paying for that service as long as we've then added value in different solutions. What we don't want to do is just go, yeah, we'll take that and away we go. We'd like to challenge and no, it's not, it's not, it's not the methodology that you uh you adopt, is it? And it's not the methodology across the full business to be fair, of like there is a level of consistency in how we try to manage expectations and be constructive.

Dave Willetts 48:49

Yeah, I often go around clients, you know, I could go a month after, yeah. And you know, I always ask for feedback, whether it's good or bad. We we need it in order to make sure that what we do next is right.

Nick Marshall 49:02

Yeah, yeah.

Dave Willetts 49:02

And if they're not happy with us, I'd be glad for them to tell them to tell me that. So I you know, it's only like doing an audit, uh-huh. Um, but you're doing it on someone's, you know, someone's site that's important to them.

Nick Marshall 49:14

Yeah. Any other nuggets that that come out, or do you think we've covered all those areas in way of a start er for ten? Because these podcasts we will go into some some more grand reality, but I think it's just the start of a tether that gets people thinking.

Dave Willetts 49:26

Yeah, it's probably millions. Yeah. I've got millions of things going on. Yeah. But it's um, yeah, I think we've covered we've covered the the main body of it. Yeah. The fundamentals is that you need a decent earthing system. We've gone through the touch step. You know, we've gone on um putting folks onto uh other um services, yeah. Um and then the buildability. I think we've covered most of it, but yeah, if we can get down to the topics in future, then that'd be that'd be good.

Nick Marshall 49:58

Great stuff. Well, thank you for your time, it's been really insightful. Like I always say to everyone we get on, I I I love the the energy that people bring, the technical competency as well. But I think hopefully what people start to see consuming is to see a level of passion, people that are really focused on doing the right thing for the for the end client, but has the ability to challenge constructively, but are bringing a wealth of knowledge. And yourself, we had Tim on uh last month, the month before that we had Matt. There are a great array of people that have been in the industry some time, and that has value, and it's about utilise that volume in the right way. And that's what I do conversation.

Dave Willetts 50:37

You know, it's not it's not what you know, it's who you know, correct. You know, um Matt, yeah, wealth and knowledge. Yes, yeah.

Nick Marshall 50:44

Well, let's thank you for your time, Dave. Much appreciated. But no doubt our viewers will see you in due course as we start to to bring you back. But I'll I will call a close to the to the podcast today. So thanks, thanks a lot for your time.

Dave Willetts 50:55

No, thank you very much.

Nick Marshall 50:56

All that reminds remains me to say is uh obviously thank you again for for watching and and consuming the content. In episode four, we'll be going back to the lightning protection part of the business, and we'll be bringing in some of our vendors that we were talking about to give some further insight based on what they see within the market, um, linked to surge and other areas, because these podcasts it's about bringing different people with different mindset and a different lens that they're looking through, which hopefully goes back to the core essence of what we're trying to achieve within the podcast, and that's all about educating people, raising the bar in the things that we do, and that people are taking those golden nuggets away, which helps them work smarter, safer, and that education starts to grow within our market space. So, we'd like to again thank you for your time, and we'll see you in in next month's podcast. Thank you.