Part 3 | No Falls Week 2026 | Changing the culture around work at height

Final part of our No Falls Week miniseries 'Changing the culture around work at height'. 

Falls from height remain the leading cause of workplace fatalities in the UK. Latest figures from the Health & Safety Executive (HSE) show that 35 people lost their lives at work due to a fall from height in 2024/25. 

In this special No Falls Week episode, host Nick Marshall is joined by No Falls Foundation Trustee, Kelly Nicoll to explore why falls from height still happen in the workplace, how safety culture must evolve and the role of No Falls Week in driving industry change. 

Expect to hear more about: 

• The origin of the No Falls Foundation
• How reduced investigation affects prevention and learning 
• Why falls still happen despite regulation, training and equipment 
• Which sectors face the highest risk 
• The power of personal stories in humanising the issue and changing behaviour 
• How organisations can support No Falls Week

Thank you for watching or listening, we’ll see you in next month’s podcast!

Thank you for listening to Omega Red's podcast. All information was accurate at the time of recording.

Omega Red is a UK market leader in lightning protection, height safety, earthing and surge protection.

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Transcript

Why Bad Stories Stick

Kelly Nicoll 0:11

As human beings, we are storytellers. And as I remember reading something, or I think we were talking about it earlier. There's we don't remember the stories that were all nice and happy. You know, you look at Grimm's fairy tales, none of them are none of them are particularly joyful. Um as human beings, we are designed to survive. And that means telling each other the stories of when something's gone wrong. Nobody remembers the time that we all went out with grandad and had a nice picnic and he ate some berries and everything was fine. You remember the story when grandad went and we all went and had a picnic and granddad ate some white berries and was very, very poorly, and that's why we don't eat white berries anymore. Do you know like it's those that's how we survive? And this idea of you know, we've been trying this with the how the working at height regs for 20 plus years, haven't we? And um, and yeah, it's sitting and going, well, regulation four says, and this says that, and like the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again. So yeah, so let's do something different. Let's actually use the path, use those things that as human beings stick with us and resonate with us and use it to harness what we need people to do.

Using Storytelling Over Regulations

Nick Marshall 1:34

I think the next part of that is about the storytelling. But one thing you mentioned just the other ones you wanted to go back to was the work that you've been doing with the universities around some of the research because I was and the the insight-driven and about how that operates. And it would just be good just to try and understand in a little bit more detail if we could, just about what does that actually look like. So I think when I started to to hear that the work that you were undertaking, I was I thought, wow, that's just we need to elevate that message that talks about how you are educating, preventing, and making people take a step back because we want more people to sign up to to No Falls Week. We want more people in involved with the foundation because, like I've said, more advocates means more people passing that message and making sure that we're all working as safe as possible. But more importantly, people are people going home safe to their loved ones aren't they. So can you just give a bit of insight into some of the research has been undertaken?

Kelly Nicoll 2:27

I absolutely can, and I have had to refer to my notes. Because it's one of those that I've just had to go research, yes. So um, we are currently conducting a research study around behavioural insights to preventing falls. Um, and the idea is that we want to map the context in which so that the interventions that we're having are the most um give us the most impact. Um reviewing existing data, analysing the key guidance and documentation that's out already, and also engaging with industry stakeholders, which is where um your listeners can and viewers can absolutely come in and help out individuals who have survived um falls in order to be able to contribute to really great important guidance around working at height. Um we want to be able to identify the behaviours that lead to fall-related deaths and injuries across all of the in all of the industry sectors. And the idea is that that will then lead to priority sectors and behaviours where we can we can have those interventions and also looking at kind of the readiness for change as well, which I think is one of the conversations that we've been having quite a bit today as well.

Nick Marshall 3:49

Yeah, which I think that's so much insight there that you can you can take and you you can then put into some real actions, activities, measure it. But like I say, it's it's not coming from I think we should be doing this, it's actually with using some some grounded information from people, like I say, that have lived and breathed it as well, and uh come back and tell you how they've kind of circumnavigated whatever they did to to have their incident or accident. And like I say, there's other things then about some of the the data, what's that telling us? So I think that's gonna have such a massive impact. And how will that resonate out then? Will that be through conferences and and and t hrough

Kelly Nicoll 4:26

It'll be through conferences, through papers, it'll we'll change the advice and guidance that that is on our website. Um, and we'll, you know, there's an awful lot of of the advocates that are always more than willing to come out and speak um whether they're about their lived experience and then also the the other things that that um you can do to shift and nudge the dial to to make sure people are coming home safe. Um I think you know, safety is a team sport, isn't it?

Nick Marshall 4:57

Yeah.

Kelly Nicoll 4:58

It's it's not, you know, we should be learning from each other and we should be we should be able to turn around and go, yeah, do you know what we have we this is what we experienced. Yeah. This is what we learned from that incident, this is what we've done differently, and we will share that with everybody because I don't want you to have to go through the same thing in order to learn the same lessons.

What Great Safety Culture Needs

Nick Marshall 5:22

Um based on your vast experience, when you've seen safety culture working really well, what what elements do you say? Obviously, so you mentioned their teamworking, there's there's there's a a culture that's driven from the top, I'm guessing, that the everyone has a voice and be able to challenge and be listened to and heard about they're not inspections, they're the the the safety conversations, right? Because using the word inspection and people think clipboard do they rather than just what's happening through your lens, tell me how we put you to work. What were the gaps in those areas? Do you feel like you can challenge what what are the elements that you that you see? Is it all what's mentioned though?

Kelly Nicoll 5:59

All of those and then and then trust.

Nick Marshall 6:02

Massive, yeah.

Kelly Nicoll 6:03

Trust is huge. If you don't trust your people to get on with their job, what why why are they doing the job? Um trust that they know how. Trust that you can give them the tools to be able to do their job safely. Yeah. And that they can trust you that if they say they don't feel safe or they feel that something's not right, that that will also be listened to. Um you know, I've I've never massively been one for hugely hierarchical um organizations. I don't think it works. Um we're all driving, we're all driving in the same direction. Um, and it's me trusting that the person by beside me is not just responsible for them, but is responsible for me too, in the same way that I'm responsible for me and I'm responsible for them and the person on my right. Um, and that and yeah, and health and safety is a tool to be able to get us to the place that we want to be. It's not a hindrance. It's not, oh, we've got to do this because the law tells us we have to, or we don't want to get in trouble. It's we do this because it's the right thing to do.

Nick Marshall 7:15

Yeah. And it goes back to the understanding what your critical risks are and the control measures you've got in place. Yeah, I could have a piece of paper and a risk assessment that tells, but but a piece of paper's not going to keep you safe, is it? It's about the the attitude, the behaviours, and it's about people really understanding everything that I'm doing in way of that process, goes back to your example, like clipping on, clipping off. I've I've done that in the same way, repetition, but I make sure that I'm concentrating in those areas. Is is the uh equipment inspected in the right way? Have you have you because they are things that could potentially fail if a fall does occur and it's getting people to go that that's the mindset that you need when it comes to prevention.

Risk Assessments As Conversations

Kelly Nicoll 7:53

The other thing is is I and it's quite controversial. Some people look at some people look at me weirdly. I don't write risk assessments. I don't think I've written a risk assessment in over a decade as a health and safety bod. Yeah. I don't write them. I'm not the expert in that job. Yeah. You write them. I'll write them with you. I'll I I'll give you the framework and the tools to be able to do that risk assessment. But you what are the things, what are the things that make you worried about not going home? And actually, rather than go, you know, I know we nerded out earlier and talked about five by fives and all of that, but fundamentally, if you go, what are the things, what are the things in your job that mean that you might not go home? So flipping that conversation, getting people bought into what is, you know, is a paperwork exercise. You know, we we do live in a world where if it's not written down, it doesn't exist. It's very, very difficult to prove things that we don't have physical evidence for it. But using risk assessment as a tool to have those conversations with people is really important.

Nick Marshall 9:00

I really got to think about where you do involve people, because I've I've got something stuck in my mind about when the um the lampposts that are collapsible rather than working it high. That came from a I think from a conversation that says actually, if we want to eliminate the risk, why don't we do that? Do that. And he's but that just shows the power of involving people, and there's a prime example of prevention, isn't it? And that's really at that first level of of of hierarchy of safety.

Kelly Nicoll 9:26

Or even, you know, window cleaners. No, you're right. I don't want to go up and down a ladder 15, 20, 300 times a day. I'd much rather do it from the floor. And you know, you've got those telescopic poles now, like eliminate stuff.

Nick Marshall 9:41

Yeah.

Kelly Nicoll 9:42

And especially when, you know, we health and safety people are lots of things to lots of different people. Yeah. Talk to the experts in that job.

Nick Marshall 9:51

It's amazing how he's had to go around and you see some of the estates where you have got the people with the wash and wreaths, but you've still got the old school window cleaner, you're like thinking to yourself, it just demonstrates what we've been talking about throughout the podcast that that individual probably thinks that's cost, that's going to cost me time to set up. I can I can whistle through all these houses up and down the ladder. But every time I'm doing that, there's there's a there's a level of risk of doing it where someone at the side of me that's got the wash and reach is just probably looking at me going, what what what are you doing? But that just shows some of the the context in where we need to need to work on it, isn't it?

Near Misses And Positive Investigations

Nick Marshall 10:26

So from a prevention point of view, when you think about kind of near misses and hazard reporting, it's getting people into that mindset as well, isn't it? From a from a culture point of view and looking out, and I think you've mentioned before about you pulling people up working on your property there, is it goes back to that communication element again, though, isn't it? They say how comfortable do you feel? And sometimes, as we're British, and I think sometimes we we don't like treading on people's toes, do we? It's like how how do I put this across? But getting people also when they're out doing the job is is is to to give more insight. And do do you do you believe in in kind of the the hazard spotting and making sure that people uh are really tuned in to that hazard perception?

Kelly Nicoll 11:07

Absolutely. Do I believe in quotas for them? No. Um do I think that you know near misses near misses those kind of oh I'm not gonna tell my mum about that one moments is the polite way of saying it. Um those bits, those are the th like near misses and hazard spotting are so essential because we can learn so much from them and nobody's been hurt. Like they are gold for us as an industry and as a profession. And and I think the more we have the more we get comfortable with talking about those moments where you know, oh, I had a slip there, oh, that didn't go quite right. Um is really, really important. But then also I'm gonna flip it and not just look at near misses and hazards, but those jobs that go really well, like really like we used to call them positive investigations.

Nick Marshall 12:08

Yeah, I was gonna ask you that question about saying the looking at thing, but then going that that that proactive investigation before things happen go, how do we improve the process that we've currently got? Because that's great, but let's celebrate that. But can we actually move the dial further? Yeah, yeah.

Kelly Nicoll 12:23

What yeah, what did we do in this one? Well, actually, we had a team that all know each other and are all comfortable with each other and really come, you know, it didn't the the apprentice knew that he could turn around to the, you know, to the supervisor and go, Oh you, you know, your steely's aren't on, your harness isn't tightened. When you've got people that want to actively look out for each other rather than just themselves, um that is that is that's where the magic happens. And that goes back to values and behaviours and and how we instill that in people. Um, that it is, it's about looking out for each other. Because sometimes we don't necessarily, you know, we're not necessarily paying attention. It's that that very British thing of we don't necessarily look after ourselves very well. But I'm comfortable looking after you, so you look after me, I'll look after you, right? Yeah. And I think that's really important. And a lot of the key of that is supervisors and line managers who become curious and are interested, and are interested in learning from things that nearly went wrong or went wrong, but nothing happened, you know, nobody got hurt. Um, and those things, and it goes, yeah.

Nick Marshall 13:43

I think you mentioned as well, it's about the empowerment. So you empower people then to do risk assessment support. So there's a level of empowerment. There's a level of empowerment then as that supervisor say, actually, I'm gonna stop the job because it's not it's not safe. And that that again, that's about the cultural aspect. They're going, I know that I can push that back into the office and I'm fully supported rather than go just get the job

Dynamic Decisions And Money Pressure

Nick Marshall 14:05

done. But what we said right at the start though, probably the self-employed sometime, that is they are looking and going, I need to earn some money today, so actually I'm just gonna crack on. Yeah, I've turned up, I've been given some of this equipment, but either the equipment's wrong or the set of circumstances that I'm now working in have changed, and this is no longer fit for purpose. But I'll I'll crack on. Oh actually the scope of work changes where they go, well, just do this while you're here as well. I suppose that's where that's where the incidents occur because I've got the control measures for that first job, but then someone just drops something on me and goes, just do that.

Kelly Nicoll 14:37

Yeah.

Nick Marshall 14:37

And that's that's something we need to watch out for.

Kelly Nicoll 14:40

It is, but then it's also you empower your people by um giving them the tools to be able to dynamically risk assess as well. Yeah, yeah. How do you make those decisions on the fly? Because not everything, not everything is going to be perfect all of the time. So, how do you make decisions on the fly? How do you um how do you kind of veer off course whilst also knowing what and that's why I talk about frameworks rather than you will do this and you will not do this, and really prescriptive kind of SOPs and stuff, they they are you create frameworks because you trust the people that you work with to be able to make safe decisions for themselves. And then but then it in it, you're right, it goes back to that. But if I know that my daughter needs new ballet shoes or needs a new drum kit because you know she's just done her grade six, you know, like and and all of if that pressure is on there, or oh, we put a deposit down on a on a holiday, and all that second bill's coming up and it's been quiet this way.

Nick Marshall 15:48

Get me in front of it, and then suddenly I do the action activity, and that's the one that unfortunately causes the incident.

Kelly Nicoll 15:55

And and it is such a difficult piece to figure out how we target though like those people. Not that that sounded really like that, but you do know what I mean, like those the those small and medium enterprises, those tiny enterprises, those solo traders, um, how you engage with them in a way that makes sense to them is such a key for so much of this. Yeah.

Ambassador Stories That Change Minds

Nick Marshall 16:28

I suppose that links us on quite nice. We said you're at the back end of this podcast, we'd look at some of the um ambassadors that you've got working within the and the personal stories that come out there. And can you just give us some examples of some of the people and the and the stories that come out there? Because I think that that's that is the and we've left it to the back end because I think that is the absolute golden nugget when people go, Oh my god, they they are things which you can now bring to the table to to to educate people where you're driving an emotional response, which means that locks it into the brain, because it's like, wow, that's that's powerful stuff, and listening to your story previously , it it's still there with easy, it never goes away. Yeah, yeah.

Kelly Nicoll 17:08

It really doesn't. Um, so the easiest thing for me to say is if you're interested in having one of our ambassadors come and talk um at one of your sites, please go and check out our website. Um, please come and contact us um and we'll get you in touch with um with one of them um or a couple of them. Um there are so there are loads, there are loads, there really are. Um I think Jason Anker's is probably the most um yeah. Very, very powerful conversation. Um, you know, and and his recognition that, you know, his accountability what's interesting is having heard him speak a number of years ago versus more more recently is how that talk has changed as he has come more to terms with the responsibility and accountability that he has within um that incident as well.

Nick Marshall 18:05

Because I think probably some of the anger has dropped to that point in time that he's going to kind of self-cope in around this is now his life, and he's accepted that, but then it's about, well, how have I got here? And that the power of reflection is is is is massive, but then you want people to think about that to reflect in the dynamic risk assessment to go, whoa, but let me just put the brakes out before that job starts. I've now come across something.

Kelly Nicoll 18:27

Yeah.

Nick Marshall 18:27

Yeah.

Kelly Nicoll 18:28

But um, and we don't just have Jason's perspective, uh, we have his daughter's perspective as well now. So so she talks um really eloquently. Um, you know, I think she was three when when Jason had his um incident, and so she has never not known dad in a wheelchair, but she talks about the incident and not the incident itself, but the recovery and the relationship with her father that has come that are completely shifted because because of that injury. And if you brush off, I don't think you ever can, but if you brush off Jason's story of going, well, that'll never happen to me, listening to the effect and the impact that that had, that 30-second misstep mistake made for the ramifications that that had with his relationship with his daughter, um, the things that he could not do for her and with her because um because of the injury. Um, you know, I think I alluded to another one earlier um where we had a a guy, we have a guy who worked on chimneys and and on roofs, and he was exceptional he was in he was put in a position where he was exceptionally uncomfortable. Did not feel that he could say no. Um I mean the story's horrif the story's horrific and it it absolutely incenses me. It uh gets so angry about it. Um his boss fabricated a document from the HSE to say that they were exempt from wearing harnesses and he fell off a roof um onto a kind of a divider, dividing wall between two properties in front of a bus stop where kids were waiting to um go to school. Oh um and the the bit that the bit that got me got me on that was his first thought was how traumatized those kids would have been. And you know, and he um he broke his pelv, he shattered his pelvis, um you know, and in fact there's a there's a poster um of his legs with with the shadow, um, with a shadow in front of him, and it's literally says falls from height cast a long shadow. Um and it's phenomenal. And you know, there's there's people who, you know, there's family members who have lost somebody to a fall from height. There are survivors, you know, who it may not even have been as bad as as kind of those two examples. Um, you know, I'm I'm actually I'm talking to um I'm talking to one of the guys I know who um who had a la he had a telescopic ladder snap underneath him and he fell six foot um the day after Christmas, uh day after Boxing Day. Um and yeah, that was the that was a third fall from height that um I'd kind of had to deal with. And um and he broke his back in six places. And that must be coming up, probably about six, maybe five, six or Years ago. It was definitely pre I don't know, COVID fumbled everybody's timelines up. Um and um it was definitely before COVID. Um and I and his memory of the incident is very different to my memory of the incident. And he does not remember me seeing him in hospital. And I there are days where there are bad days where I can still I can still r I still replay going through the hospit walking through the hospital ward and I asked for him and then went, oh no, it's okay, because I could hear him I could hear him screaming from the other side of the ward. Um and he he was very fortunate. He walked back into work kind of six, seven months later. Um but we were I was also, you know, I we were in a position and I was absolutely adamant that our decision around the ladders that we were recommend the ladders I were I was recommending had resulted in what should have been an EN131 rated ladder, which I spent a small fortune getting um a post mortem essentially on the ladder. Turns out it wasn't raised, it wasn't um it was a it was a knockoff um that we'd bought from a reputable supplier and it all unraveled quite horrifically. Um, but he he still finds it very, very difficult to talk about it. Um and yeah, it's it goes yeah, it's the reason why it doesn't have to be a big fall, you know. It was you know, that was that was not even probably barely six foot.

Nick Marshall 23:56

They didn't say some two metres above into vel ocity, uh people, people died from two metres and people forget about that. They think it's all the the the big work ing at height thing, and it's not.

Kelly Nicoll 24:07

It can be tiny.

Nick Marshall 24:08

Deception again, isn't it?

Kelly Nicoll 24:10

Yeah. And you know, you look at I know we're talking about no falls, you look at the work that Rosper does, which is around kind of DIY and stuff like that. And the amount of people who hurt like seriously hurt or injured themselves through falls from height doing home repairs and and stuff like that is is is mad.

Nick Marshall 24:31

It's amazing how many people probably work safely during the week, but then get to the week end then and then and and then they do what is that like it goes back to then go danger must be sleeping on a weekend, but it is people you hear the stories and they'll they'll turn around and go, Oh yeah, within work, I I'll I'll do all those things, but it's just suddenly I'll do that job.

Kelly Nicoll 24:49

Yeah. Now uh I'll lean over that ladder, I'll overstretch on that ladder. I'll yeah.

Nick Marshall 24:54

Yeah, and that's the kind of thing that we

No Falls Week And How To Join

Nick Marshall 24:56

need to change. So just kind of draw in the podcast to a close. Don't I appreciate your honesty there though from uh from an emotional side of point of view in the in the stories that you've that you've shared there, and hopefully that resonates with our listeners and watchers, we'll hear that in your voices, see that in your in in your body language when you've been talking about it, that you've you've witnessed a lot within your career and what we're trying to do, and that the foundation is trying to do is do a real education piece. So No Falls Week in get getting behind it, because this is this is now drumming up the the the the drum beat for people to go. Do you know something? I've I've I've I'm listening to this podcast, I'm watching it, and it's now making me really think about where our priorities lie and are we doing everything possible. And that's that's all we ever want from these podcasts is people to reflect and go. I'm taking even if you take one element from from one of these podcasts, then it's done its job. Um, so yeah, just trying to think about how people can get involved.

Kelly Nicoll 25:51

Um it's it's very simple. You go to nofallsfoundation.org and uh look for the No Falls Week um information. There will be a huge amount of uh toolkits, resources um from No Falls and from the Access Industry Forum to help organizations plan activities for No Falls Week. Sign up um to join us. Um No Falls Week this year is the 18th to the 22nd of May. Um and uh and yeah, um follow us on LinkedIn, um invite one of our advocates to come and come and speak. Um even if it's not that week, if it's you know a couple of weeks later. Um, but yeah, if if you if you if you have people working at height, um yeah, let's talk, essentially.

Three Takeaways To Act On

Nick Marshall 26:49

And what would you say your golden nuggets are then just about everything that we've discussed to you when we talk about in in summary? Because when we do these podcasts, I always like to get people just to go. What are the three things you want people to take away? Because obviously it is preventable, isn't it? And it's there's a there's a there's a mindset. So what would you say? Just look, just just think about these things.

Kelly Nicoll 27:08

Oh, that's a really good one. Um, I think the priority is obviously come and sign up and you know become become involved with the No Falls Foundation. Um, the second one is absolutely that power of storytelling. Storytelling is is something that that we can use and harness um in order to really make um a positive change uh within our workforces. Um and thirdly, look at look at how you can shift culture. Culture is the key to so much of this because shifting your culture shifts people's behaviour. And if you shift to a trust culture, um then yeah, then then people will come and speak to you. And that that's really important.

Nick Marshall 27:57

Powerful, powerful. They all say the power of three. I think they are real powerful messages there. So Kelly, I'd really like to thank you for your time. It's been really insightful, and like just to see the the passion, the emotion that comes forward, you can tell obviously that this you this you live and breathe this type of stuff, and I appreciate you taking time to to come onto ground ed in safety to share that with us.

Speaker 1 28:17

Thank you very much for having me.

Nick Marshall 28:18

Thank you very much.