Full version | No Falls Week | Changing the culture around work at height

Falls from height remain the leading cause of workplace fatalities in the UK. Latest figures from the Health & Safety Executive (HSE) show that 35 people lost their lives at work due to a fall from height in 2024/25. 

In this special No Falls Week episode, host Nick Marshall is joined by No Falls Foundation Trustee, Kelly Nicoll to explore why falls from height still happen in the workplace, how safety culture must evolve and the role of No Falls Week in driving industry change. 

Expect to hear more about: 

• The origin of the No Falls Foundation 
• How reduced investigation affects prevention and learning 
• Why falls still happen despite regulation, training and equipment 
• Which sectors face the highest risk 
• The power of personal stories in humanising the issue and changing behaviour 
• How organisations can support No Falls Week 

Thank you for listening to Omega Red's podcast. All information was accurate at the time of recording.

Omega Red is a UK market leader in lightning protection, height safety, earthing and surge protection.

Visit our website

Follow us on LinkedIn

Transcript

Why Falls From Height Matter

Nick Marshall 0:12

Hi everyone, I'm Nick Marshall, the Managing Director of Omega Red Group. I'd like to welcome you to our fourth episode of Grounded in Safety: Anchored, Connected, Protected. A platform built to inform, educate and inspire those working in power earthing, lightning protection and height safety services from design, installation, asset management through to repairs and everything else in between. At Omega Red Group, we firmly believe knowledge shared is safety multiplied. This podcast opens real conversation with industry experts, sharing insights, experiences and practical guidance to help raise standards across our sector. Whether you're on site, in the office, or simply curious, there's something here for you. Our mission is simple, it's about raising the bar by connecting people, elevating expertise and championing safety in everything that we do. Falls from height remains the leading cause of workplace fatalities in the UK. Today we're discussing what that is and what the industry can do differently. Today's conversation isn't about regulations or equipment, it's about people, culture, and prevention.

Meet Kelly Nicoll

Nick Marshall 1:14

At that point in time, I'd like to introduce our guest, Kelly Nickel. Hi. Hi Kelly, how are you?

Kelly Nicoll 1:18

I'm good, thanks.

Nick Marshall 1:19

Good. Thank you very much for taking the time to come on to Ground Red in Safety.

Kelly Nicoll 1:22

Thanks for having me.

Nick Marshall 1:23

Um one of the things that we like to do as part of the podcast is just to give a little bit of an introduction of our guest, just so you can give a little bit of background about your career in safety and how you kind of got working for the foundation.

Kelly Nicoll 1:33

Sure. So uh my name's Kelly Nicoll. Um, some of you may recognise the voice, um, at least as uh IOSH president from uh 2025, which feels like a million miles away already. And one of my focus areas was uh preventing falls from height, uh, which then led me to uh being a very recently appointed trustee for the No Falls Foundation. I've been in health and safety for about 17 years now, literally tripped and fell. Yeah, pun fully intended, um, and found a career that uh is incredibly rewarding, is all about people. And uh and well, yeah, I think we talked about it the other day, didn't we, when we were prepping for this. Yeah. Talking about actually one of the greatest honours I've found is that it's our job to make sure that people get to go home to their families every day. Yeah. And that has been absolutely the driver behind everything that I do in my profession. I've worked across lots of different industries. So uh broadcasting, media, um in leisure and culture now. I've been in energy from waste, I worked for the NHS for a little while, facilities, lots and lots of different areas, um, and as wide and varied as I possibly could be uh to keep it interesting for myself.

Nick Marshall 2:59

And across those sectors, I'm guessing you'll see in multitude of areas from a work and height perspective and the problems that people are faced with.

Kelly Nicoll 3:07

Um massively, yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, rail rail network, um, we do an awful lot of working at height there. The NHS, weirdly, one of the worst, kind of one of the kind of top three worst um falls from height incidents that I've ever seen. Um, and an awful lot of kind of media and broadcast um uh involves an awful lot of working at height, working on gantries, working on roofs, and uh and also working in um working in different countries where perhaps the attitude and approach to health and safety isn't the same as ours, um, which which creates its own challenges as well.

Nick Marshall 3:47

I think we'll get into the kind of the cultural aspect a little bit later on into the podcast.

Why The No Falls Foundation Exists

Nick Marshall 3:51

So if we start about the the origins of the No Fall Foundation then, um kind of what led to the creation then of the foundation?

Kelly Nicoll 3:59

I think you summarised it earlier, actually. Um fundamentally, the the foundation um was created because Falls from Height remains and has consistently remained the number one reason why people don't go home at the end of a day of work. And it's not just those people that don't come home, it's the people who have completely life-changing, life-altering, and life-limiting um injuries. And the ripple effect that that has not just on the individual and their family and friends and colleagues and the businesses that they work in, um, but the ripple effect that has out into our wider communities. Uh, and the foot the foundation was created to fundamentally prevent falls from height and dropped objects happening, starting to research so that we've got some really good data as health and safety professionals so that we can actually nudge the dial to understand why we are still experiencing falls from height and still having dropped objects and falling objects. And then also, and and the the bit that I didn't know before I got talking to the Falls No Falls Foundation was to provide support to people who have been affected by the aftermath of a fall. So that's whether somebody has survived and needs direct support from other peers who have also got the same lived experience, their families, um, and they can provide financial advice and financial support as well as that mental health and well-being support as well, which is phenomenally important and something I'm incredibly proud to be able to represent.

Nick Marshall 5:39

Yeah, yeah. I think when you listen to the the personal stories, I think we'll talk about those a little bit again in into the podcast, is that that's the that's the humdinger for me when people kind of take a reflection back of why they've taken a certain action and and applied something where they've navigated a process and unfortunately then an incident or abstinence occurred. It's yeah, it's it leaves some damage effects, and that's that's what we're trying to educate people across everything that we do as a business, but obviously the foundation has some some real driving factors that sit behind it, don't it?

Kelly Nicoll 6:10

Yeah, it does. Uh I mean, we'll we'll talk about it in a bit more detail later, but um, and one of the big things for me is the power of storytelling and actually that the importance of we can sit and talk about legislation all day, every day. The legislation hasn't changed in 20 oh over 25 years now. Fundamentally, what what is changing is the fact is the way that we're approaching it and and that kind of hearing from somebody who has survived a fall, who has had life-changing injuries, and hearing the as you said, that thought process behind it of oh it'll just take a second, oh, it's a bit windy, but I'll just get on with that job, or it's it's Friday and I want to finish early, so come on, let's crack on. Or I know I should probably shouldn't have done it, but I did it anyway. I felt the pressure from the boss, or or pressure from, you know, outside of that, or I wasn't really paying attention to what I was doing because my head was somewhere else. All of those things that we can all absolutely relate to. And the difference being is that, you know, somebody gets to walk away from uh something like that, or or sadly doesn't. Um, and no those those personal and those lived experience stories are incredibly important um and incredibly effective to convey the importance of what we are trying to to achieve, absolutely.

Nick Marshall 7:40

And if you think about what does success look like for the foundation, then is that all this work that's going on, I know obviously probably the reduction in the number of deaths that we see, but the obviously you've talked about the prevention, we've talked about some of the education piece. What does it what does good look like and successful story for the for the charity?

Kelly Nicoll 7:59

I mean, in an ideal world, you would want everybody that works at height to be able to go home to their families in the same way that they started their day. Um, we wouldn't want to see any dropped objects, we wouldn't want to see anybody, you know, feeling the aftermath of of any of those kind of injuries. Um, a steady reduction um would be really important. Um, and the research that we're currently doing and partnering with uh universities to look at is actually much more around the behavioural side of it, so that that then leads into really good pieces of information and guidance for health and safety professionals so that we can absolutely be focusing on the bits that need to be focused on.

Nick Marshall 8:43

I think we're going to look at the some of that behavioural stuff again a little bit later on, but I think more and more people nowadays are using data and insight to derive better decision-making processes and about the change in culture, and that's making people more informed, and like you say, it's trying to then raise the bar, very much like the podcast is doing, is is getting people to to think about actions, behaviours, consequences of of taking certain actions.

Kelly Nicoll 9:07

No, absolutely.

No Falls Week And What Success Means

Nick Marshall 9:09

What what does kind of the um the uptake look like in the industry then around kind of the no falls week and how we start to generate further engagement from from individuals and businesses?

Kelly Nicoll 9:21

Yeah, so um No Falls um No Falls Week started in 2024. Yeah. They had since then we've had 5,100 organisations sign up. Um, so and just over a thousand of those have joined us from the beginning and continue to sign up, which is phenomenal. Um and it's that it's a dedicated week to focus on let's try and have a week in across the UK where nobody falls, um, nobody's seriously injured, nobody, you know, we don't have any dropped object either. Um, and if we can do that for one week, we can repeat that. And if we can repeat that for two weeks, we can repeat that for a month. And it, you know, and it's that idea of you know last year's stats, it was 35 people who didn't go home. The year before it was 51. You know, that's that's one family every single week or every other week getting a knock on the door saying that somebody is not coming home. That's a rugby team being told that somebody is not ever going to be playing for them again. That's you know, that's in that's entire communities, um, entire, you know, businesses, complete the ripple effect from it is incredibly profound and incredibly difficult to convey. And as somebody who has been a health and safety manager who has investigated a number of these um incidents um from a selfish perspective, I don't want to do that. I really don't want to do that again. Um, the responsibility and the accountability that you feel is um incredibly heavy. Yeah. And that's what that's the whole point of the No Falls week is the idea of we've we focus on the biggest reason why people don't come home just for a week and see whether we can nudge that dial. Yeah. And then see whether we can repeat that over and over again, I think is a is a really good area of focus.

Nick Marshall 11:32

So I suppose it's it's come out in the conversation already about why these faults keep happening and about kind of the root cause of it. So if we look at some of those in a little bit more detail, you think about the HSE inspections taking place, investigations, how do you see that playing through it? Is that kind of community now stretched? And is it the industry versus the self-employed, that that the balance of how do you regulate all the amount of work and high that's going on? There's a change in behaviours, I get that, but also then there's there's kind of some of the process that sits behind it as well, isn't there? The culture that sits within someone's organization.

Kelly Nicoll 12:09

So I think a lot of the kind of the bigger hitters, um, so the the bigger organizations are doing it and they're doing it, you know, doing it well. Yeah. Um, I think you alluded to, you know, the HSE, the hit HSE are incredibly stretched. Yeah. Um, the number of investigators and inspectors they've got seem to be, feels like it's reducing every year. Um they are focusing in on kind of on the fatalities, not necessarily the riddle reportable incidents. Um, and then you've got the self-employed and you've got those kind of very small SMEs. Um, and they're the people that we're desperately, we desperately need to reach because they're often working in domestic properties, they're often working with clients who don't know what they should be expecting

SMEs, Self-Employed And Real-World Pressure

Kelly Nicoll 13:00

and they should want from their scaffolders or their roofers or even their solar panel installers. Um, and and that attitude, the attitude of it'll never happen to me, it's absolutely fine. Um, I always I used to make this joke that roofers are an entirely different breed of people because they are exposed to that level of risk day in, day out. And they just you get risk blind, you don't see it anymore, do you? And it becomes really, really difficult to be able to target them. I mean, I uh I had solar panels installed on my house and got the assurance that they would be it would be scaffolding, and uh and I mentioned, you know, what I'd do as a job and mentioned, you know, this is the kind of thing that I would expect. And uh they turned up with uh lean two ladders. And I went, no guys. And I very much got a you don't know what you're talking about. And there's a whole we could probably spend a whole other podcast episode on being a woman in uh in health and safety still, and being a woman in kind of construction and and all of that kind of stuff, um, even now. Um, and yeah, that at the attitude of I don't know what I'm talking about, um, is really, really difficult to get over. Um and actually all I was doing was going, I don't want any of you guys to get her on my property. I don't want, I want you guys to go home.

Nick Marshall 14:37

Yeah.

Kelly Nicoll 14:38

Um and they didn't, yeah, they they they had their attitude, their behaviour was around we want to get this job finished as soon as possible and get it done quickly and as cheaply as possible because scaffolding obviously adds cost and time and all of that kind of stuff. Um, so yeah.

Nick Marshall 14:59

And and do you think obviously the I I agree with kind of the women in industry and people will look and go, what do you what do you know that? But I think there's also that some of the people accepting constructive feedback or being being challenged, and some of that is about breaking that mindset of individuals into that says when someone's challenging you, it's not him to be pedantic, it's not to try and put you down to belittle you that you don't understand that you're doing the job incorrectly. It's actually going back to what you're saying there, is making sure that he's coming from a really good place, and it's we need to probably educate people that in a lot if if someone's tapping on the shoulder and saying, Is that safe? Maybe that's your little bit of an angel sat on your shoulder going, today could be that day where that blinkers are on and something happens, and I think we've got some words due in those areas. Would you would you agree?

Kelly Nicoll 15:46

I completely agree. Um, I recently did a um coaching for coaching for safety professionals course, and I absolutely loved it. It's that idea of actually I and I've always said this all the way through my career: I am not the expert in what anybody else does. I don't even like the word expert in what we do either, because um I think what we're here to do is we're here to build a framework within which people can be successful at their jobs. And being successful in their job means first and foremost that they get to go home at the end of every day. Um anything outside of that. So if I, you know, I come and I think it's one of the things that as an industry we probably as a profession rather than an industry, but as a profession, we need to get much better at is being curious rather than judgmental. So long gone are the high viz, um, high viz clipboard finger wagging stereotypes, absolutely. Um, but I think some of us still carry that little bit of an attitude with it. Um I don't like heights, so I'm not gonna get up on a roof um unless I'm very confident that it's safe for me to do that. And I'm gonna lean on the people who are around me who are experts in being able to get me up there safely. So if I'm asking a question, it's coming from a place of curiosity rather than judgment. A guy who rocks up at my door to install my solar panels doesn't know that that's how I work. So when I ask a curious question, sometimes I've got to I've got to be really careful about how I approach that in order to be able to achieve the result that I actually that we actually want. Um with those guys, it very much ended up being, do you know what? I've told you what my expectations were. This is not what we we had agreed, that's not what was in the contract, you actually need to go away. They did not like me. But I wasn't prepared, I wasn't prepared for that to happen. Um I got a phone call from the sales rep, hugely apologetic. Scaffolding came up, everything got sorted. Um but an awful lot of people won't do that. An awful lot of people go, Oh, I thought you were using scaffolding. Oh no, it's all right, love. We're just cracking on, we've got another one to do this afternoon. Okay, not a problem. Um and I think it is, it's that idea of you know, it's not health and safety gone mad, it's it's that idea that actually we're all responsible for looking out and looking after each other. And I think if we instilled that culture within our larger organizations, within our SMEs, within our solo one-man band, I mean, if you're a one-man band, like everything is entirely on you. It is entirely your responsibility to make sure you do everything in your power to get home. And that's really important. Um, you know, and we're not just talking about, you know, solar panels or window installers, we're talking about people who work in agriculture and construction. And we know that there are an awful lot of wider issues, you know, peripatetic working, huge amounts of financial pressures, you know, long, very long hours, long driving hours, all of that kind of stuff that all contribute to the uh the fact that somebody may make a mistake um when they're working at height and be the reason that that they don't come home.

Nick Marshall 19:25

Yeah. I think you mentioned there about the the course that you're being on from a coaching perspective. I'm guessing that you went through the GROW model about what's the grow, the reality opportunity, what do you want to do next? But I think it does come down to communication in the going back to referencing about how health and safety has probably been seen in the past with a clipboard and no, you you can't do that, you have to come down. And it's about how do you change that percentage? But first of all, it's about how do you communicate with somebody and it's it's a human connection, is need to make sure that we do that in a a less challenging way, but constructively, that actually it's coming from a place of of good, and it's about the are you thinking about the ramifications of that critical risk that we're trying to manage and and make sure that you go you go home safely. And I think we we struggle sometimes to probably communicate that message and people put the the shackles up don't they, then they go into defence mode because it feels like now you're having to go at my my core values that you're saying that I'm working unsafe and how it's how we break that that down.

Kelly Nicoll 20:24

Yeah, and I think coming not just from a place of good but from a place of care becomes really important and asking those kind of curious questions of like, well, you know, actually have you know, have you got the right equipment? Are you taking that little bit of time to sit and think about the potential of you know, and it it it's not saying that all us health and safety people turn rounds and go, oh, it's all doom and gloom all of the time, because it's not. It's actually when it comes to working at height, it's basically playing Russian roulette. Gravity is a hazard that we cannot get rid of, we cannot manage out. Um if you are working at height, we're playing Russian roulette. And all we're doing is we're trying to give you as many chambers as possible rather than more bullets. Yeah. Because ultimately the outcome is if there is a fall, there it that is always, if you're going back to your good old five by five wrist matrix, the severity is always gonna be a five. Your likelihood may change, but that severity is always gonna stay a five because it has to. Because you can have everything in place. And if somebody forgets to clip on or somebody thinks that just by physically having a harness on means that they're magically safe, you know, it just takes one one misstep, one half a second of not paying attention, and everything can change.

Nick Marshall 21:58

I think we were talking before we came onto the podcast about the health and safety manager I'd work with and he kind of coined the phrase danger never sleeps. Yeah. And it it goes back to the sometimes I've got the blinkers on, I've done that Joe 24-7, but today that danger is not sleeping it can be where you make that mistake and that's some of that educational piece of people that say don't we we all become very comfortable with our surroundings don't we? And then you you're into autopilot but autopilot drives sometimes the the wrong outcome.

Kelly Nicoll 22:30

I um you've just reminded me um I was at a stadium in um in Germany and we were installing uh a camera system um and the way that it was done was you clipped on and you had a very like a very small platform that you would kind of end up you would climb over the railing you'd sit on this platform and you'd sit and you would install the camera um to the side of you and there are 10 cameras in the system we started off in the number one clip on over hand everything over right okay fine he's back over that's fine move move around on the ninth on the ninth one platform went over all got locked in he went over camera got done we came back out and I went to unclip him and realised he hadn't been clipped on because we'd done it eight times we'd done or we'd got into that and it was just and it was that split second of going oh no like that could have been the time that he fell that could have been you know and we were very lucky that it wasn't and that was purely by luck rather than judgment and it was like right okay do we act we've got one camera left okay right now what we're gonna do is we're gonna write into the SOP for this site that you literally you talk through every single step. So it's yeah.

Nick Marshall 24:04

And it's the lessons learned isn't it so straight away you've gone I need to go back to it because that is an area which could potentially happen again so let's make sure then that we put something in place where we're we're talking through the process. It's a bit like a pilot doing a check of the plane isn't it and then I'm capturing that information but then somebody signs that off at the end of it and goes right I'm comfortable then.

Kelly Nicoll 24:25

Before we before we've actually gone and done it. Yeah yeah so yeah it and it does it's that repetition especially if you're doing the same thing over and over again it becomes muscle memory and you're not necessarily fully engaging your brain because as human beings once we once we're very used to be doing something it gets very easy for our brain to go off for a wander somewhere or if we are struggling from a mental health perspective or we've got financial worries or we're stressing about what is happening in the world. There's a lot of lot happening in the world or you know my filling my car up cost me double the amount of money that goes back to financial aspect. Or my daughter's you know my daughter's falling out with me or I'm not speaking to my boyfriend or and all of those things your brain goes there because that's fresh and that's going on and your body thinks that it's still doing the same thing and it just doesn't take a huge amount for something to go really really wrong.

Nick Marshall 25:31

You mentioned right at the start about uh the number of companies that are engaging with with another five over five thousand but I think then we're talking about then the probably the self-employed are are hard to get to and we've used that word communication a few times so how do you think we we we get the better lines of communication with them to to get our messages to to land to those individuals is it TikTok Facebook Snapchat because you've got a younger end but also you've got an older end of people that are probably they've done that job well why do I need protection I've done this job for but then if I'm taking on some some new people into the business do I then pass on those those bad habits time because you just got you don't need that because look I'm living I'm living proof I how do you think we get to those individuals?

Human Factors, Autopilot And Distraction

Kelly Nicoll 26:15

I think it's really interesting and quite frankly if a TikTok you know if somebody getting on TikTok and demonstrating how to use a harness properly and how to clip on is the difference between somebody paying attention to it and not flood TikTok with it, flood Insta, flood Snapchat, etc like any method of communication. And as health and safety professionals we are generally really good at changing the way we communicate depending on the audience. Yeah. The way I talk to my board is very different from the way I talk to my finance team is very very different to the way I would talk to a lifeguard or an usher and and that we need to become really adept. Yeah. And I think one of the really important things is actually listening to people going to forums that they already are in going to I don't know um local chambers going to business chambers going to business forums forums and actually listening to them and it goes back to curiosity rather than judgment how can I help because actually what we do as health and safety people is we help businesses become more effective more efficient and and we make we help them become more successful. So coming at it from that direction of what I can do is help you be more have your business more successful bring in more clients be more efficient being at you know retain that your staff rather than losing staff hand over fist or you know having people leave you for bigger jobs or whatever like I can help you grow that just through health and safety. And it's really simple and really straightforward. It just create it it requires a little bit of front end investment in training and time and coaching and making sure that you've got somebody with the best version of your staff um and that will pay dividends um further on down the line. But yeah like an awful lot of SMEs they don't they don't come to the big conferences they don't come to the big exhibitions that an awful lot of us are at um so it's meeting people where they're at is really really important and yeah if you need to do a TikTok dance in order to convince people.

Nick Marshall 28:45

You haven't seen my dancing. No, nobody wants to see a dad dance do they either but I'll uh I'll might put that in my back pocket and uh take some take some dancing lessons.

Kelly Nicoll 28:53

Desperate times.

Nick Marshall 28:54

Exactly yeah it will it will be desperate believe me so you we we've touched on then the culture side of it so I think that that's massive interest but it's one big thing that the the the foundation is trying to to to make sure that the the the the drive out the the educational piece and really get more advocates out there to to challenge so if you look at some of the behavioural safety aspects of of what people do in this day and age is that advanced further do you think nowadays or is there still work there that we need to think about the the behavioural safety and how we bring that down a level to probably to that to that self-employed?

Kelly Nicoll 29:29

Oh

Nick Marshall 29:30

It's another deep question.

Kelly Nicoll 29:31

It's another podcast episode that one um behavioural safety is really essential is understanding what pay makes people tick, understanding what people's drivers are, understanding why people come to work um and understanding that that might not be the same for every everybody um there was a fast there was a fascinating um panel that I was had the honour of of chairing whilst I was in a health and safety conference in in Japan last year um where somebody talked about the purpose of work. And actually if you understand your purpose within the work that you do it's um it's the new the it's the guy it's the really old story of the new CEO of NASA walks through and he meets one of the cleaners and the cleaner's mopping the floor and he asks the cleaner what are you doing and he's and his his the cleaner's response is I'm helping put a man on the moon like that is it's that if everybody if you know what part you have to play in whatever business it is um that that is a really strong vision it's a really strong mission and that those values are carried by leadership it becomes really easy but we've been talking about behavioural safety for a really long time that's started to dip into mental you know the importance of mental health and wellbeing and we've still got so far to go on that um you know particularly in male heavy industries um particularly you know with this rise of toxic masculinity and the manosphere and all of that kind of stuff like we are still we're still having the same conversations.

Nick Marshall 31:29

It's about working those people's beliefs into so like you've got the beliefs which drives your value say your value shape drive your attitude and your attitude drive your MBA do others so it's about how do we start to unpack some of those areas to say but where's that belief come from if I've been working with someone for for a period of time that's been working as a scaffold and have always done that well guess what I'm gonna have the same belief as that individual because I'll come in and go well Dave's alright he's been doing that job for 30 years nothing's happened to him so why would I want to be putting a harness on now and it's we need to break that down so those individuals go, but do I share those same beliefs and that's why we need more advocates?

Kelly Nicoll 32:06

Oh of course we do and the more it's the say it's it's the same thing over and over again. The more we talk about something the more we shed a light on something the the better it becomes it it's painful asking people to change their behaviors are is really really difficult. You know, we had that difficulty you know if you're a health and safety geek and a safety nerd like I am you know we had a huge behavioral shift when the safety when the car safety belt was introduced and the pressure that what what the campaign started to do was that positive peer pressure. And they actually targeted the this targeted children initially of going you telling mum and dads that you're not letting them you can't drive the car until your safety until your belt's on um and then that starts to shift and it just becomes it's normal now. Of course you put your seatbelt on when you get in the car. I'm just thinking about I know you've now evoked to memory my brain in regards to the the advert and clunk click. Yeah and it's just as you were saying I was like yeah clunk click and but God how long ago was that that adverb where it just shows that through the messaging through working on kind of the the emotional side of it to get people to really think there's there's things that have resonated and and and stopped within the mind and that's probably a back and as soon as you said that we're like clunk click clunk click. Yeah. And and I think that's the thing with you know with advocates um particularly those who have survived um falls you know one of the most famous is obviously Jason Anker um and and he speaks incredibly eloquently and um incredibly it's an it's an incredibly heartbreaking story. And it's not we don't just have Jason we have a number of others um you know and I I remember listening to one of one of the stories um and I'm so glad it was on it was so glad I'm so glad it was on a non-recorded webinar because I think for the first time in a very very long time I had to turn my camera off because it oh did it get me and actually it wasn't just the it wasn't just the story of what had happened it was the fact that you could see it coming. Do you know like you yeah you could see it coming and hindsight's 2020 and all of that but you could understand that it it was something it was just you could see it happening and this was this was a business owner who simply did not care. And then you find out that he'd done it elsewhere. He'd done it elsewhere and done it to other people and and then and I think that's the bit of it's that the kind of sense of justice and that absolute kind of this should never have happened. It should it it's bad enough that it happened once but then for somebody to not have learnt from that and continue to treat their staff that way was yeah.

Nick Marshall 35:18

Goes back to values doesn't it because you know that that's something that's happened in a past life if you can carry on doing that then that says a lot about you as the individual which is and that there are people out there and they're that's where we need to educate where people can then come back and challenge those individuals going I I I've seen things I've been educated here and I'm coming from a power of strength and I suppose it leads me on to that next question about kind of risk perception as well in it is that how do we start to really help people in that risk perception because my level of risk to your level of risk we might be seeing things in totally different way and so I'll go if someone tells me rather than go woo woo woo woo let's get some of those alarm bells going first of all. So what have you seen within

Beliefs, Risk Perception And Behaviour Change

Nick Marshall 36:00

your career around kind of risk perception of what that's being done.

Kelly Nicoll 36:03

I think it's really interesting because I think we've alluded it to it to it a couple of times you've had you've got you've got people who've been doing the job for 30 40 years and everything nothing's ever happened to me and everything's fine and you know you stop with all of this noisy health and safety stuff. And then you have your your newbies your your new entrants who don't tend to know any better and are very eager to learn and very eager to just say yes so that they can keep their job. But actually what's incredibly interesting with Gen Z is that they are an awful lot more educated. They are an awful lot more aware and they are you know us millennials who are you know old now we're probably mature. Yeah. I wouldn't say mature either just older older yeah not necessarily wiser but we you know we're probably the last generation where that social contract was drilled in you go to school you do good at school you go to uni you get a good job blah blah blah blah blah Gen Z are very very comfortable with going no very very comfortable with going your values do not align with mine I'm off to go find something else and I think that's a real shock to the system for an awful lot of people who are but I've been doing it for 40 years and there's nothing wrong with that. And somebody else comes in and goes what on earth how on earth are you doing this? This isn't okay.

Nick Marshall 37:36

Bit of a truth mirror isn't it at that point in time is oh yeah

Kelly Nicoll 37:41

And that's very uncomfortable for people who are older and more more experienced because they've been doing it for that long like that and you know of of and who are you to come in at 21 or even you know 16 and tell me that I've been doing it wrong. And that's a really big challenge. But harnessing so when I when I used to do um when I used to work for a broadcast company um we would spend a whole week there was a whole week of induction for all of our new starters and they spent a whole day with me and they were all either placement students so kind of m halfway through their university um courses or they were fresh out of uni. Hadn't really seen the world and I was the health and safety department we worked in 190 different countries 365 days a year. We delivered you know sports officiating to tens of thousands of sporting events um across the entire world I can't be everywhere all at the same time unfortunately I'm not that good um so my job on my day with them was to instill this idea that actually if something doesn't feel right in your gut stop figure it out and then move forward and I mean we'd spend the first 45 minutes telling uh discussing why health and safety is terrible and awful and then we flipped it all around and we had that really important conversation. And we'd go through the technical stuff and the working at height and and all you know and and we'd obviously we'd had some we had a very bad experience where one of our placement students died from a fall from height. And uh and that was horrific. Um and the ripple effect that that had across the business um the the trauma that that created from those of us that you know just went to the coroner's and heard the extensively long list of injuries and knowing that he was his you know his brother had worked for us and um like I didn't ever want to be in that position again. Yeah like never um and

Nick Marshall 40:14

You can tell that . Obviously I'm close here and I can see you you tearing up and because you've been through an experience you've you've felt every single emotion so that's yeah and that's what people need to understand when they are taking those actions is you might have gone but think about everyone else that you leave in the way then they go to someone's gonna have to have that question of why why has it happened how could it how it could have been stopped and there's probably loads of areas that it could have been stopped and

Kelly Nicoll 40:42

And you kind of realize that you know having been through an a a number of kind of whether it's eH o or h you know HSE visits etc like they are awful they're really awful even if you're like yeah here's all my paper here's all my evidence here's absolutely everything here's my risk assessment i if every every single I is dotted and T is crossed they are still really awful experiences to go through and if you care about the people you work with you do whether it whether it's right or wrong you feel responsible you feel accountable for it. Um and you know it but we we used that story within that business not to scare not to scare people who are joining us but actually to say this is this is actually the reality this is the reality of what yes it's all shiny and exciting and brilliant and you get to travel the world and see amazing things but there is also a risk that you could not come home.

Nick Marshall 41:50

So don't get distracted from the risk is it you think about the country and where you go and living a life so rather than actually

Kelly Nicoll 41:57

When it comes to that bit if you cannot put everything else in a box and just focus on that I would rather you not do it. Yeah

Nick Marshall 42:05

And it goes back to example about not clipping on and that the the the ninth camera yeah something there you've been having great work in practice for the first day and that's that that one time that could have been the time when danger not sleeping and but something happened yeah absolutely that that individual was was safe at that point in time but you you do probably sit there and go, oh my God, we've we've yeah because that takes you back to then memories of past

Kelly Nicoll 42:30

Yeah. Um I mean we call them we used to call them 'oh s**t' moments. Yeah yeah yeah yeah those mo uh or as I used to say to the the guys is um the moments that you're not gonna tell your mum about yeah do you know those those things of like we're not gonna tell mum we've got away with it it's fine I was like those are the bits that I want to know about.

Nick Marshall 42:51

Exactly and that stuff comes back to the culture isn't it? About really getting listen yeah something's happened but we need to understand where those points of failure have happened because we need to change that and we need to speak and it's not about kind of chastising you it's about saying that's great but this is about making sure we can have an adult conversation that goes we can learn from it and I think sometimes people feel of this is disciplinary this is me out of a job but how many times is that happening and we've got to say let's let's have an adult conversation because goes back to what you say right at the start and we need to go home safely and what can we learn and draw a line under it but we know tomorrow we are working far more safely than we were yesterday. Yeah and that's such a compelling compelling reason to change isn't it.

Kelly Nicoll 43:34

Absolutely and and I think that's the thing is those story those stories really fuel it. They really really do they um you know Jason's story sticks with me um yeah all of those stories because as human beings we are storytellers yeah and as I remember reading something or I think we were talking about it earlier there's We don't remember the stories that were all nice and happy. You know, you look at Grimm's fairy tales, none of them are none of them are particularly joyful. Um as human beings, we are designed to survive. And that means telling each other the stories of when something's gone wrong. Nobody remembers the time that we all went out with grandad and had a nice picnic and he ate some berries and everything was fine. You remember the story when grandad went and we all went and had a picnic and granddad ate some white berries and was very, very poorly, and that's why we don't eat white berries anymore. Do you know like it's those that's how we survive? And this idea of you know, we've been trying this with the health the the working at height regs for 20 plus years, haven't we? And um, and yeah, it's sitting and going, well, Regulation 4 says and this says that, and like the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again. So yeah. So let's do something different. Let's actually use the path, use those things that as human beings stick with us and resonate with us and use it to harness what we need people to do.

Nick Marshall 45:12

I think the next part of that is about the storytelling. But one thing you mentioned just the other ones you wanted to go back to was the work that you've been doing with the universities around some of the research because and the the insight-driven and about how that operates. And it would just be good just to try and understand in a little bit more detail, if we could, just about what does that actually look like. So I think when I started to to hear the work that you were undertaking, I was I thought, wow, that's just we need to elevate that message that talks about how you are educating, preventing, and making people take a step back because we want more people to sign up to To No Falls Week. We want more people in involved with the foundation because, like I said, more advocates means more people passing that message and making sure that we're all working as safe as possible, but more importantly, people who people are going, oh I'm safe with the loved ones out there. So can you just give a bit of insight into some of the research has been

Research, Trust Culture And Better Conversations

Nick Marshall 46:05

undertaken?

Kelly Nicoll 46:05

I absolutely can, and I have had to refer to my notes because it's one of those that I've just had to go research. Yes. So um, we are currently conducting a research study around behavioural insights to preventing falls. Um and the idea is that we want to map the context in which so that the interventions that we're having are the most um give us the most impact. Um, reviewing existing data, analysing the key guidance and documentation that's out already, and also engaging with industry stakeholders, which is where um your listeners can and viewers can absolutely come in and help out individuals who have survived um falls in order to be able to contribute to really great important guidance around working at height. Um we want to be able to identify the behaviours that lead to fall-related deaths and injuries across all of the in all of the industry sectors. And the idea is that that will then lead to priority sectors and behaviours where we can we can have those interventions and also looking at kind of the readiness for change as well, which I think is one of the conversations that we've been having quite a bit today as well.

Nick Marshall 47:27

Yeah, which I think that's so much inside there that you can you can take and you you can then put into some real actions, activities, measure it. But like I say, it's it's not coming from I think we should be doing this, it's actually with using some some grounded information from people, like I say, that have lived and breathed it as well, and come back and tell you how they've kind of circumnavigated whatever they did to to have their incident or accident. And like I say, there's other things then about some of the the data, what's that telling us? So I think that's gonna have such a massive impact. And how will that resonate out then? Will that be through conferences and and and through

Kelly Nicoll 48:04

It'll be through conferences, through papers, it'll we'll change the advice and guidance that that is on our website. Um and we'll, you know, there's an awful lot of of the advocates that are always more than willing to come out and speak um whether they're about their lived experience and then also the the other things that that um you can do to shift and nudge the dial to to make sure people are coming home safe. Um I think you know, safety is a team sport, isn't it?

Nick Marshall 48:35

Yeah.

Kelly Nicoll 48:36

It's it's not, you know, we should be learning from each other and we should be we should be able to turn around and go, yeah, do you know what we have we this is what we experienced. Yeah. This is what we learned from that incident, this is what we've done differently, and we will share that with everybody because I don't want you to have to go through the same thing in order to learn the same lessons.

Nick Marshall 49:00

Um based on your vast experience, when you've seen safety culture working really well, what what elements do you say? Obviously, so you mentioned their teamworking, there's there's there's a a culture that's driven from the top, I'm guessing, that that ever has a voice and be able to challenge and be listened to and heard are that we're about but not inspections, they're the the the safety conversations, right? Because using the word inspection and it people think clipboard, do they rather than just what's happening through your lens, tell me how we put you to work? What were the gaps in those areas? Do you feel like you can challenge what are the elements that you see? Is it all what you mentioned?

Kelly Nicoll 49:37

All of those and then and then trust.

Nick Marshall 49:40

Massive, yeah.

Kelly Nicoll 49:42

Trust is huge. If you don't trust your people to get on with their job, what why why are they doing the job? Um trust that they know how Trust that you can give them the tools to be able to do their job safely. Yeah. And that they can trust you that if they say they don't feel safe or they feel that something's not right, that that will also be listened to. Um you know, I've I've never massively been one for hugely hierarchical um organizations. I don't think it works. Um we're all driving, we're all driving in the same direction. Um, and it's me trusting that the person by beside me um is not just responsible for them, but is responsible for me too, in the same way that I'm responsible for me and I'm responsible for them and the person on my right. Um, and that and yeah, and health and safety is a tool to be able to get us to the place that we want to be. It's not a hindrance. It's not, oh, we've got to do this because the law tells us we have to, or we don't want to get in trouble. It's we do this because it's the right thing to do.

Nick Marshall 50:53

Yeah. And it goes back to the understanding what your critical risks are and the control measures you've got in place. Yeah, I could have a piece of paper and a risk assessment that tells, but but a piece of paper's not going to keep you safe, is it? It's about the the attitude, the behaviours, and it's about people really understanding everything that I'm doing in way of that process. Goes back to your example, like clipping on, clipping off. I've I've done that in the same way, repetition, but I make sure that I'm concentrating in those areas. Is is the uh equipment inspected in the in the right way? Because they are things that could potentially fail if a fall does occur and it's getting people to go. That's the mindset that you need when it comes to prevention.

Kelly Nicoll 51:32

The other thing is, is I and it's quite controversial. Some people look at some people look at me weirdly. I don't write risk assessments. I don't think I've written a risk assessment in over a decade as a health and safety bot. Yeah. I don't write them. I'm not the expert in that job. Yeah. You write them. I'll write them with you. I'll I I'll give you the framework and the tools to be able to do that risk assessment. But you what are the things, what are the things that make you worried about not going home? And actually, rather than going, you know, I know we nerded out earlier and talked about five by fives and all of that, but fundamentally, if you go, what are the things, what are the things in your job that mean that you might not go home? So flipping that conversation, getting people bought into what is, you know, is a paperwork exercise. You know, we we do live in a world where if it's not written down, it doesn't exist. It's very, very difficult to prove things that when we don't have physical evidence for it. But using risk assessment as a tool to have those conversations with people is really important.

Nick Marshall 52:39

I've really got to think about where you do involve people, because I've I've got something stuck in my mind about when the um the lampposts that are collapsible rather than working high. That came from a I think from a conversation that says actually, if we want to eliminate the risk, why don't we do that? Do that. And he's but that just shows the power of involving people. And there's a prime example of prevention, in terms that's really at that first level of of of hierarchy of safety.

Kelly Nicoll 53:04

Or even, you know, window cleaners. No, you're right. I don't want to go up and down a ladder 15, 20, 300 times a day. I'd much rather do it from the floor. And you know, you've got those telescopic holes now, like eliminate stuff.

Nick Marshall 53:20

Yeah.

Kelly Nicoll 53:20

And especially when, you know, we health and safety people are lots of things to lots of different people. Yeah. Talk to the experts in that job.

Nick Marshall 53:29

It's amazing how you actually go around and you see in some of the estates where you have got the people with the wash and wreaths, but you've still got the old school window cleaner, you're like thinking to yourself, it just demonstrates what we've been talking about throughout the podcast that that individual probably thinks that's cost, that's going to cost me time to set up. I can I can whistle through all these houses up and down the lad, but every time I'm doing that, there's there's a there's a level of risk of doing it where someone at the side of me that's got the wash and reach is just probably looking at me going, What what what are you doing? But that just shows some of the the context in where we need to need to work on it, isn't it? So from a prevention point of view, it when you think about kind of near misses and hazard reporting, it's getting people into that mindset as well, isn't it, from a from a culture point of view and looking out, and I think you've mentioned before about you pulling people up working on your property there is it goes back to that communication element again, though, isn't it? They say how comfortable do you feel? And sometimes as we're British, and I think sometimes we we don't like treading on people's toes, do we? It's like how how do I put this across? But getting people also when they're out doing the job is is is to to give more insight. And do do you do you believe in in kind of the the hazard spotting and making sure that people uh are really tuned in to that hazard perception?

Kelly Nicoll 54:45

Absolutely. Do I believe in quotas for them? No. Um do I think that you know near misses near misses those kind of oh I'm not gonna tell my mum about that one moments is the polite way of saying it. Um those bits, those are the th like near misses and hazard spotting are so essential because we can learn so much from them and nobody's been hurt. Like they are gold for us as an industry and as a profession. And and I think the more we have the more we get comfortable with talking about those moments where you know, oh, I had a slip there, oh, that didn't go quite right. Um is really, really important. But then also I'm gonna flip it and not just look at near misses and hazards, but those jobs that go really well, like really like we used to call them positive investigations.

Nick Marshall 55:47

Yeah, I was gonna ask you that question about saying the looking at things, but then going that that that proactive investigation before things happen go, how do we improve the process that we've currently got? Because that's great, but let's celebrate that. But can we actually move the dial further? Yeah, yeah.

Kelly Nicoll 56:01

What yeah, what did we do in this one? Well, actually, we had a team that all know each other and are all comfortable with each other and really come, you know, it didn't the the apprentice knew that he could turn around to the, you know, to the supervisor and go, Oh, you you know, your steely's aren't on, your harness isn't tightened. When you've got people that want to actively look out for each other rather than just themselves, um that is that is that's where the magic happens. And that goes back to values and behaviours and and how we instill that in people. Um, that it is, it's about looking out for each other. Because sometimes we don't necessarily, you know, we're not necessarily paying attention. It's that that very British thing of we don't necessarily look after ourselves very well. But I'm comfortable looking after you, so you look after me, I'll look after you, right? Yeah. And I think that's really important. And a lot of the key of that is supervisors and line managers who become curious and are interested and are interested in learning from things that nearly went wrong or went wrong, but nothing happened, you know, nobody got hurt. Um, and those things, and it goes, yeah.

Nick Marshall 57:22

I think you mentioned as well, it's about the empowerment. So you empower people then to do risk assessment support. So there's a level of empowerment. There's a level of empowerment then as that supervisors say, actually, I'm gonna stop the job because it's not it's not safe. And that that again that's about the cultural aspect, they're going, I know that I can push that back into the office and I'm fully supported rather than go just get the job done. But what we said right at the start though, probably the self-employed sometimes that is they are looking and going, I need to earn some money today, so actually I'm just gonna crack on. Yeah, I've turned up, I've been given some of this equipment, but either the equipment's wrong or the set of circumstances that I'm now working in have changed, and this is no longer fit for purpose. But I'll crack an archer the scope of work changes where they go, well, just do this while you're here as well. I suppose that's where that's where the incidents occur because I've got the control measures for that first job, but then someone just drops something on me and goes, just do that.

Kelly Nicoll 58:15

Yeah.

Nick Marshall 58:16

And that's that's something we need to watch out for.

Kelly Nicoll 58:18

It is, but then it's also you empower your people by um giving them the tools to be able to dynamically risk assess as well. Yeah, yeah. How do you make those decisions on the fly? Because not everything, not everything is going to be perfect all of the time. So, how do you make decisions on the fly? How do you um how do you kind of veer off course whilst also knowing what and that's why I talk about frameworks rather than you will do this and you will not do this, and really prescriptive kind of SOPs and stuff, they they are you create frameworks because you trust the people that you work with to be able to make safe decisions for themselves. And then but then it in it, you're right, it goes back to that. But if I know that my daughter needs new ballet shoes or needs a new drum kit because, you know, she's just done her grade six, you know, like and and all of if that pressure is on there, or oh, we put a deposit down on a on a holiday, and all that second bill's coming up and it's been quiet this way.

Nick Marshall 59:27

Get me in front of it, and then suddenly I do the action activity, and that's the one that fortunately causes the incident.

Kelly Nicoll 59:33

And and it is such a difficult piece to figure out how we target though like those people. Not that that sounded really like that, but you do know what I mean, like those the those small and medium enterprises, those miny enterprises, those solo traders, um, how you engage with them in a way that makes sense to them is such a key for so much of this. Yeah.

Nick Marshall 1:00:06

I suppose that links us on quite nice. We said you're at the back end of this podcast, we'd look at some of the um ambassadors that you've got working within the and the personal stories that come out there. And can you just give us some examples of some of the people and the and the stories that come out there? Because I think that that's that is the and we've left it to the back end because I think that is the absolute golden nugget when people go, oh my god, they they are things which you can now bring to the table to to to educate people where you're driving an emotional response, which means that locks it into the brain because it's like, wow, that's that's powerful stuff, and listening to your story previously in your coach, it it's still there with you, is it never goes away. Yeah, yeah.

Kelly Nicoll 1:00:46

It really doesn't. Um, so the easiest thing for me to say is if you're interested in having one of our ambassadors come and talk um at one of your sites, please go and check out our website. Um, please come and contact us um and we'll

Survivor Stories And How To Get Involved

Kelly Nicoll 1:01:00

get you in touch with um with one of them um or a couple of them. Um there are so there are loads, there are loads, there really are. Um I think Jason Anchers is probably the most um I've seen yes. Yeah. Very, very powerful conversation. Um, you know, and and his recognition that, you know, his accountability what's interesting is having heard him speak a number of years ago versus more recently is how that talk has changed as he has come more to terms with hit the responsibility and accountability that he has within um that incident as well.

Nick Marshall 1:01:44

I think probably some of the anger has dropped to that point in time and he's going to kind of self-cope and manage this is now his life, and he's accepted that, but then it's about, well, have I got here? And that the power of reflection is is is massive, but then you want people to think about that to reflect in the dynamic risk assessment to you to go, well, but let me just put the brakes out before that job starts. I've now come across something.

Kelly Nicoll 1:02:05

Yeah.

Nick Marshall 1:02:06

Yeah.

Kelly Nicoll 1:02:06

But um, and we don't just have Jason's perspective, uh, we have his daughter's perspective as well now. So so she talks um really eloquently. Um, you know, I think she was three when when Jason had his um incident, and so she has never not known dad in a wheelchair, but she talks about the incident and not the incident itself, but the recovery and the relationship with her father that has come that are completely shifted because because of that injury. And if you brush off, I don't think you ever can, but if you brush off Jason's story of going, well, that'll never happen to me, listening to the effect and the impact that that had, that 30-second misstep mistake made for the ramifications that that had with his relationship with his daughter, um, the things that he could not do for her and with her because um because of the injury. Um you know, I think I alluded to another one earlier um where we had a a guy, we have a guy who worked on chimneys and and on roofs, and he was exceptional he was in he was put in a position where he was exceptionally uncomfortable. Did not feel that he could say no. Um I mean the story's horrif the story's horrific and it it absolutely incenses me. It uh gets so angry about it. Um his boss fabricated a document from the HSE to say that they were exempt from wearing harnesses and he fell off a roof um onto a kind of a divider, dividing wall between two properties in front of a bus stop where kids were waiting to um go to school. Um and the the bit that the bit that got me got me in that was his first thought was how traumatized those kids would have been. And you know, and he um he broke his pelv, he shattered his pelvis, um you know, and in fact there's a there's a poster um of his legs with with the shadow, um, with a shadow in front of him, and it's literally says falls from height cast a long shadow. Um and it's phenomenal. And you know, there's there's people who, you know, there's family members who have lost somebody to a fall from height. There are survivors, you know, who it may not even have been as bad as as kind of those two examples. Um, you know, I'm I'm actually I'm talking to um I'm talking to one of the guys I know who um who had a la he had a telescopic ladder snap underneath him and he fell six foot um the day after Christmas, uh day after Boxing Day. Um and yeah, that was the that was a third fall from height that um I'd kind of had to deal with and um and he broke his back in six places and that must be coming up probably about six, maybe five, six years ago. It was definitely pre I don't know, COVID fumbled everybody's timelines up. Um and um it was definitely before COVID. Um and I and his memory of the incident is very different to my memory of the incident, and he does not remember. me seeing him in hospital and I there are days where there are bad days where I can still I can still I still replay going through the hospital walking through the hospital ward and I asked for him and then went, oh no it's okay because I could hear him I could hear him screaming from the other side of the ward. Um and he he was very fortunate he walked back into work kind of six seven months later um but we were I was also you know I I we were in a position and I was absolutely adamant that our decision around the ladder the ladders that we were recommend the ladders I were I was recommending had resulted in what should have been an EN131 rated ladder which I spent a small fortune getting um a post mortem essentially on the ladder. Turns out it wasn't raised it wasn't um it was a it was a knockoff um that we'd bought from a reputable supplier and it all unraveled quite horrifically um you know but he he still finds it very very difficult to talk about it. And yeah it's it goes yeah it's the reason why it doesn't have to be a big fall you know it was you know that was that was not even probably barely six foot.

Nick Marshall 1:07:34

They didn't say some two metres but into velocity and like people people died from two metres and people forget about that. They think it's all the the the big working at height things you like and it's not.

Kelly Nicoll 1:07:46

It can be tiny yeah and you know you look at I know we're talking about no falls you look at the work that Rosper does which is around kind of DIY and stuff like that. And the amount of people who hurt like seriously hurt or injure themselves through falls from height doing home repairs and and stuff like that is is is mad.

Nick Marshall 1:08:09

It's amazing how many people probably work safely during the week but then get to the week and then and and then they do what is that he's right so it goes back to then go danger must be sleeping on a weekend but it is people you hear the stories and they'll they'll turn around and go oh yeah within work I I I'll do all those things but it's just suddenly I'll do that job.

Kelly Nicoll 1:08:27

Yeah. Now I'll lean over that ladder I'll overstretch on that ladder I'll yeah.

Nick Marshall 1:08:32

Yeah and that's the kind of thing that we we need to change. So just kind of draw in the the podcast to a close don't I I appreciate your honesty there though from a from an emotional side of point of view in the in the stories that you've that you've shared there and hopefully that resonates with our listeners and watchers they'll hear that in your voices see that in your in in your body language when you've been talking about it that you've you've witnessed a lot with within your career and what we're trying to do and the and that the foundation is trying to do is is is do a real education piece. So what can organisations do then to help support No Falls Week in get getting behind it because this is this is now drumming up the the the the drum beat for people to go do you know something I've I've I'm I'm listening to this podcast I'm watching it and it's now making me really think about where our priorities lie and are we doing everything possible and that's that's all we ever want from these podcasts is people to reflect and go I'm taking even if you take one element from from one of these podcasts then it's done its job. So yeah it's just trying to think about how people can get involved

Kelly Nicoll 1:09:32

um it's it's it's very simple you go to nofallsfoundation.org and uh look for the no falls week um information there will be a huge amount of uh toolkits resources um from no falls and from the access industry forum to help organisations plan activities for no falls week sign up um to join us um no falls week this year is the 18th to the 22nd of May button um and uh and yeah um follow us on LinkedIn um invite one of our advocates to come and come and speak um even if it's not that week if it's you know a couple of weeks later um but yeah if if you if you if you have people working at height um yeah let let's talk yeah essentially .

Nick Marshall 1:10:30

and what would you say your golden nuggets are then just about everything that we've discussed here when we talk about in in summary because when we do these podcasts I always like to get people just to go what are the three things you want people to take away because obviously it is preventable isn't it and it's there's a there's a there's a mindset. So what would you say just look just just think about these things

Kelly Nicoll 1:10:50

oh that's a really good one. I think the priority is obviously come and sign up and you know become become involved with the No Falls Foundation. The second one is absolutely that power of storytelling storytelling is is something that that we can use and harness um in order to really make um a positive change uh within our workforces um and thirdly look at look at how you can shift culture culture is the key to so much of this because shifting your culture shifts people's behaviour and if you shift to a trust culture um then yeah then then people will come and speak to you and that that's really important.

Nick Marshall 1:11:38

Powerful powerful they all say the power of three I think they are real powerful messages there. So Kelly I would really like to thank you for your time it's been really insightful and like just to see the the passion the emotion that comes forward you can tell obviously that this you this you live and breathe this type of stuff and I appreciate you taking time to to come onto ground in safety to share that with us.

Kelly Nicoll 1:11:58

Thank you very much for having me.

Nick Marshall 1:11:59

Thank you very much. So that remains me to say is to thank you for tuning in watching and listening depending on how you decided to uh consume the podcast if you can join us in next month's episode episode five which is surge protection in there we're going to start to really unbutton how surge devices are used trying to overcome some of the issues that people face and what we'll be doing is bringing in some of our vendors to have a a really good debate around some of the the nuances that we find within the sector and some of the misconceptions so hopefully in episode five if you could join that would be great and we'll see you next month episode thank you very much