Episode 4: Supporting Leadership that Lasts: ACAPT’s FHEL Grant

In our latest FlexCast episode, FHEL graduates share the moments, challenges, and growth that shaped their leadership journeys. We're joined by Dr. Dawn Brown, PT, DPT, EdD, OCS; Dr. Stephanie Eton, PT, DPT, GCS, NCS; Dr. Jaime Gonzalez, PT, DPT, OCS, SCS.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to FlexCast, conversations and academic physical therapy, where we explore the people, ideas, and actions shaping the future of physical therapy education. My name is Emily Weber, Director of Communications and Marketing at ACAT. Today's episode is all about leadership. Not just learning it, but living it. We're spotlighting the Fellowship and Higher Education Leadership, or FHEL inductees, and recipients of the ACAT FHEL grant. These leaders are applying what they learned in real academic settings, strengthening programs, mentoring the future faculty, and staying deeply engaged with ACAPT and the broader academic PT community. Today, we welcome Dr. Don Brown, Dr. Stephanie Eton, Dr. Jaime Gonzalez, and our host, ACAPT Board Director, Dr. Heather Ross.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Welcome. Thank you, Emily. As a 2019 graduate of the fellowship myself, I am so excited to talk about this topic with this group of accomplished individuals. Let's dive in. What motivated each of you to pursue the fellowship and the fellowship grant? I'm going to go in order on my paper here and start with Dr. Brown.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Yes, thank you so much, Heather and Emily and Dr. Eton for having me here on this FluxCast. When I think about what motivated me to pursue the fellowship, I have to go back many years, about five to six years, because I've always wanted to be a part of the fellowship. However, the timing wasn't right. So fast forward to last year, the timing was right for me to apply as well as to apply for the fellowship grant, for me to be able to advance my leadership knowledge, my leadership skills, be able to advance and lean into my leadership role at Northwestern as the assistant chair of curricular affairs, as well as in my various roles within ACATH, but also within the APTA. And so with that being said, I am extremely humble, extremely honored, and grateful to have been selected as one of the two recipients of the fellowship grant from last year, especially when I think about today's socio-political climate that impacts funding in higher education. It was no longer guaranteed that my academic institution, my physical therapy program was going to be able to support me financially. And so receiving this grant was definitely a blessing for me. And I definitely appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Thank you for those reflections. And I think the pressures on institutions that you point out are super important to acknowledge in this conversation. I did want to follow up with you. You mentioned that timing and other factors delayed your entrance into the fellowship and your process. Do you think that that delay was beneficial to you? You were closer to your leadership journey. Do you think that you brought a different skill set in than when you first identified the fellowship as a choice, or maybe not?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Yes, I think the delay was definitely beneficial. I'm a firm believer in things happen for a reason, a season, or a lifetime. And so when I first can the fellowship was first brought to my attention back when it was called Eli, I believe, you know, people said, saw some leadership potential in me, and they said that's something that you should always keep on your horizon. And so having been, I've been a clinician for almost 27 years, being relatively new in academia, um, I wanted to really lean into what it meant to be an educator and then lean into what does leadership really mean? What does it mean to be a leader and kind of, you know, get information from mentors and from advisors and coaches, and then saying, you know what, I really want to lean into this and really be able to gain the knowledge and the skills that I need, not only to lead myself, but also to lead others and lead organizations. And so that's where the timing came in to say, now, you know, at the two institution at Northwestern where I am now, this is the time for me to be able to lean in and be able to absorb and learn and also contribute and see what the future holds after having completed this fellowship.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Perfect. Thank you. And I appreciate you sharing those uh those those thoughts uh about uh how your position and current state really dovetails well because uh just remembering some of the modules, there's so much good information in this fellowship and having the best knowledge that you can possibly have about your other units, not just your programs. I can see how that would be really beneficial to you. So thank you so much. Uh I think I'll move on to Dr. Eton at this point if you would like to share some thoughts on this same question.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

Yeah, absolutely. Um, similar thoughts to Dr. Brown. When I applied for the fellowship, um, I had recently just stepped into a new leadership role as director of residency. And I felt like I needed more than a trial and error um uh type of thing to serve my team well. I really wanted to serve them well. So I wanted to feel really confident in not only leading like a high-performing group, but in deciding whether leadership was like a long-term path for me. And so the fellowship really stood out to me because um when you look it up online, you know, you could see all of the curricular components like the personal leadership, institutional management, finance, uh, student affairs, legal, all of those areas were areas I genuinely wanted to grow and needed to learn more about. And then because it was a blended model and I could um do it alongside with the current role and immediately apply what I was learning and have um strong mentoring alongside me, it just it just really appealed to me. Um, I also came from a faculty residency background. Um, I graduated from a faculty residency in 2020. And so doing a fellowship in higher education just felt like a natural uh next level of understanding for me for like how academic system works, academic systems work. Um, and I just really wanted to navigate academia intentionally. Um and then for me, like receiving the grant was really a big turning point, um, similar to Dr. Brown. It really reduced the financial strain of pursuing the fellowship. Um, but I also want to acknowledge that um it really was a turning point for me because it signaled that national organizations like ACAP saw potential in me as a developing leader from an underrepresented background. And so that recognition helped me see myself not only as a participant, but as a potential role model for any future individuals from underrepresented backgrounds who might wonder if they belong in spaces of leadership.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Thank you for those comments. And I truly value your reflections on the opportunities given to any person seeking this pathway. And I also really value your comments on intentionally navigating academics, uh, similarly to Dr. Brown, finding that spot in your journey where this information really hits. You know, you know enough, you've been around enough, and you're absorbing these uh in the fellowship. I still, I believe they're still called modules, uh, where you're really investigating higher education. And I wanted to just follow up and kind of tease into that a little bit in terms of you did a faculty residency, which probably taught you a lot about how to be a faculty member, perhaps a DPT program. And did you find some of the materials in the fellowship to dovetail nicely, or did it in fact enhance or augment? Can you kind of talk a little bit about that in more depth?

SPEAKER_04 8:04

Um, yeah, I think a little bit of both. I think it enhanced a lot of what I did in a faculty residency from um like a student affairs curriculum outcome assessment perspective. Um, but I also think it took it to the next level because um within the fellowship, we were um working with individuals within our own institutions where we kind of had to go in and and pick these individuals' brains from the academic affairs office, from um, from the CFO. Um, and so it was a really nice um practical approach where I was able to take the the time spent with those individuals and immediately apply it into my current role.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

That makes sense. So thank you for those thoughts. Next, I will move on to Dr. Gonzalez with the same question.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Hi, thank you so much for for the opportunity. Um, I don't know that there's a lot that I can add. Um, both Dr. Brown and Dr. Eton, um, you know, definitely I agree wholeheartedly with everything that they said. I guess for me, the motivation really came from a growing sense of responsibility. I found myself in roles where the decisions I made and and and more than that, the decisions that I influenced um affected students and junior faculty and developing programs in particular. Uh, and I wanted to be more intentional and effective in how I showed up as a leader, I guess is the bottom line. The fellowship appealed to me because it wasn't just about skills or titles. It was very much about understanding systems and people and influence. I wanted exposure to perspectives beyond my own institutional context and to learn alongside others who were wrestling with similar questions, but maybe in very different environments. I guess at the end of the day, it just felt like the right step at the right time. Less about advancement or admission or ambition. Not that there's anything wrong with ambition, not at all, um, and more about stewardship and service.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Those are some powerful reflections, and I agree with that. And you know, you just saying those things in that framework takes me back to my cohort and my experience. And I don't know if you have follow-up to this, Dr. Gonzalez, but it just felt like the collective of your little team made you feel so much more knowledgeable, so much uh so much more perspective provided. Um, it really deepened the experience. And and you're right, so much about this is so in alignment with the ACAPT mission of protection of programs, protection of students, and protection of each other. And I really felt like the fellowship provided that experience. And so those are powerful reflections. Thank you. Um before we move on, I did want to add in uh there is a capstone project associated, I believe, still with this. And I didn't know if any of you would like to share your uh the topic that you worked on for your capstone. Uh, I believe if you're done or if you're still working on it.

SPEAKER_04 11:09

Um sure, I'd be happy to talk a little bit about my capstone. Um because of my background in in faculty residency uh education, um I I kind of took that idea and um used that as my capstone project. Um I wanted to um create a program at UTC, uh University of Tennessee Chattanooga, where where I work, where um clinicians who were transitioning into academia had more support. And so that was the basis of my capstone. Um it was uh faculty residency-like, but open to all healthcare um fields within my university. And so I developed a curricular model um based off some of the leadership theories and um curriculum provided to us from the fellowship to basically create this idea for an initiative to support clinicians' transition into academia at our university.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

That's fantastic. What a great gift to your institution and to the individuals that will benefit from that.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Thanks for sharing. Well, I'm currently in the thick of things, so we are halfway into the fellowship. We graduate in July, and I'm still in the process of working through my capstone, if you will, of the project. And at present, it is about course directors. So um at Northwestern, we have course directors, those that are responsible for leading the courses, as do many other physical therapy programs and even non-physical therapy programs. And one of my goals, even before I started the fellowship, was to really um help course directors embrace their role as leaders of the team, um, the team that includes other core faculty, associated faculty, staff, students, really leaning into being course leaders, being course mentors, being teachers. Whereas many course directors, you you tend to stay into that teacher realm, but not really recognizing that you are leaders. And with that lens, one of my goals is to create, I don't know whether it's gonna be an onboarding module or what do you call like a workbook or like a some kind of best practice that really helps to define what course direct the course director's role, their responsibilities, and how they can truly be the leaders of the team and really lean on each other. So my project is gonna center around the course directors and trying to figure out which path I go with that. So that's yet to be determined over the next six months.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

That sounds very fun. And after this taping, I will be uh reaching out to you to end service us over here at Brunell University for that.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Ah, there we go.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

I'm all in for that. And Dr. Gonzalez, did you want to weigh in?

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Sure. Um, so my uh my project had to do with uh a uh mentor a structured mentorship program for junior faculty. Uh and um this was for for our college, so I worked with my um with my institutional mentor who was the dean of the college, uh Dr. Jared Chamberlain, um, who was great, and um and put together uh you know a very structured um but but flexible uh uh mentorship program for uh for junior faculty with a focus on folks in their first three years uh you know in academia, and that could be utilized for both uh tenure track faculty and and clinical track faculty. And um I'm no longer at that institution. I left a couple of years ago, two and a half years ago, something like that. Uh, but I'm very happy to to hear that it sounds like it continued on, uh, which is always which is always a you know a great uh great thing to hear about something that you help create.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

I couldn't agree more. These all sound like wonderful projects. And I I wanted to get that in and ask because I think it's so important for people to know that yes, you're developing yourselves, yes, we're serving our programs, but more often than not, the leadership skills and the work coming out of this program is serving your college, your university sometimes. I did a university-wide project in mine, and it's so gratifying for you and for your our leadership in the fellowship and for our profession to see the influence spread. So well done. Now that's kind of talking big picture. I want to talk a little bit more individually now for a moment, and um, because the fellowship uh and the grant and your your participation in the program, um and you have the grant that allows you to develop certainly without the additional stress. Um and so we know that uh Jamie and Stephanie have graduated. We know Dawn, she mentioned she's still moving through, but I think everybody's probably had that first part of the program where we'd explore leadership skills and what leadership means to you and learning about yourself. So uh I find this an interesting question. As you explored that part of the curriculum, leadership and your own leadership, were there skills or perspectives in yourself that you explored or learned about that actually surprised you? Maybe we can start with Dr. Gonzalez on this one.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah, I think I mean I went into the fellowship very much looking for different perspectives, but I think I think it's also fair to say that my overall posture in in entering the fellowship was um, how can I put this? Like, I'm looking for what the answers are, you know. Um, and I think what I learned about uh leadership and about myself in in a real way is that sometimes there there aren't answers, uh, or the answers can really vary depending on the context that you're talking about, because there's so many uh variables at play with any decision, any issue that we run across in in academia. Um so that was that was really interesting to me. And and honestly, I think in a weird way, sort of helped me um helped me feel better, maybe even lowered my anxiety about you know trying to find okay, what's what's the answer, what's the objective truth here. That's really that's a really hard, high expectation to have. So I think maybe uh sort of a bottom link, bottom line way to put it is that it it helped me to learn how to how to better manage my expectations and uh and leverage um you know all of the variables around me, but especially the people around me that I that I interacted with in the fellowship um and beyond to to try to narrow down, to try to filter out and and arrive at a maybe not the perfect answer, uh, but but one that'll work and one that'll work well and that you know fits you know most of the requirements again for for whatever you know whatever the issue happens to be.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

Nicely put, I think that just speaks to flexible and critical thinking in our sphere. So thank you for sharing that. Uh I'll move to Dr. Brown next.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Yes, I believe that one of the biggest impacts that the fellowship has currently, since I'm about six months in, is just as I reflect upon my ability to participate in the extremely rich and robust conversation with the my fellow um uh members of the cohort, it surprises me and it also validates the fact that going into this and having members of my cohort having a vast variety of experiences that it validates that I belong here, that I should be in this fellowship in this cohort. You know, I'm a part of amazing cohort. I believe that we are the 15th cohort of the fellowship. There are 24 of us, so shout out to Green Group or the Green Machine. Um, we have a wide variety of leadership backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives. There are physical therapists in the cohort, there are physical therapist assistants, some are in education, some are in clinical practice. And when I participate in the conversations and the discussions, you know, it it amazes me how much we have in common, despite, you know, many of them having upper level leadership, if you will, roles and, you know, thinking about what role I have currently in my institution, what roles I also play within our association. Again, it just validates that I do have the abilities, I have the competencies, I have the characteristics, behaviors, and I also have the capability to improve upon those and really lean into my identity as a leader. And so the networking, the mentorship that we get from the mentors has been amazing. It's been enlightening, and it's really piqued my curiosity about topics like Dr. Etan said about the institutional leadership and management, the student affairs, the legal and policy issues, which we're in right now, which is a lot of reading. But that really, you know, has it's piqued my curiosity and really, you know, makes me want to learn more, makes me eager to learn more. And, you know, now that I have this information, I'll be getting more information. It really, you know, makes me recognize that I can use it immediately. I believe that Dr. Eton said I can use it immediately in my current roles, whether it's a leadership role or not, but I can also use it within the association within ACAPT.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

That's an empowering message. And I love, and we'll talk more about how ACAPT um can continue to serve. And you in turn serve ACAPT as part of part of that. I'm glad people get to hear about that empowering message and the curiosity that will feed itself moving forward. So thank you for sharing that. Uh Dr. Eton.

SPEAKER_04 21:00

Yes, um, I uh relate to both um Dr. Brown and Dr. Gonzalez. I'm not sure what more I can add. They were both really good answers, but um I think for me, the the fellowship really came alive during the immersive sessions and the monthly mentor meetings. Um, I heard someone describe it one time as like group therapy for academic leaders, and that really sat with me because it was just a place to unpack all of the challenges that we were having in our current roles, um, whatever backgrounds we came from. And then we were hearing similar problems from other people. And that that allowed me, I guess, to feel like my struggles were normal and it helped shift me from a place of isolation to um a, I guess, like a problem solving network. And it was just really nice to have. Um, it helped me also think. Better in terms of like, oh, I'll just handle it myself to more of a collective approach. So I began to see the power of gathering other people's perspectives. Um even if it was reaching out to people in other departments in my institution. Um, so I've you know said HR, student affairs, or legal. And so it really taught me that working together um towards shared solutions is so important instead of carrying everything alone and that asking for help isn't a sign of weakness. One other thing I think I really realized throughout the fellowship is that the leadership isn't about me. Um I feel like that's almost like a silly thing to say, but I leave I realized that it wasn't about me. It was about helping my team by trusting them, by delegating. And then when something went wrong, like using those missteps as mentoring opportunities rather than uh a reason to give a speeding ticket. So I think those are the things that resonated with me most.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

Not just what you said, but to everything all three of you have said. I feel like I can feel 15 years of fellows sitting there nodding their heads, camaraderie, curiosity. It's not about me. Uh, so powerful and aligned. And I would just add, my mentor, when I was doing the fellowship, my mentor was actually my provost, he shared with me a book by Robert Greenleaf called The Servant Leader. Many of us have read it. And it's it's short and sweet, but it's to the point. And and it really resonated with me from day one, as it probably does with many of you, in terms of that it's not about me and where is my headspace? And uh you all clearly embody, you know, the spirit and the ethos of what this program is trying to put forth in our in our community of leadership. So thank you for sharing that. Um uh and then uh that's a good segue into maybe the last kind of big subset of uh set of questions. Um, and uh on behalf of the board, I asked this question and I also thank you most certainly for um your dedication, your enthusiasm for the fellowship for our profession, for leadership and what leadership is and is not, and applying that again to our profession, but your institutions to Allied Health. It's wonderful to see, and we thank you. We're excited about this program. Many of us have been through it. And as I've become more engaged with ACAPT, it's so nice to see how what the organization is working towards with the foundation, I should say, what the foundation is working towards is so in alignment with the mission of ACAPT. Um, and so again, our mission being becoming champions of innovation, inclusion, and inquiry and physical therapy education. So, my question is given your experience with the fellowship thus far, how has your engagement with ACAPT evolved since completing or becoming involved with the fellowship? And maybe I'll start with Dr. Eton on this one.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

Um the fellowship grant connected me to ACAPT, I think more so in a personal way, um, because for me it was more than funding. Um, I thought uh receiving the grant was more of a statement that my development as a leader uh mattered to the broader academic PT community. And so the fellowship actually allowed me to become more aware about ACAPT's mission around innovation, inclusion, and inquiry. Um and then I began to see my own work as part of that larger uh vision and mission of ACAPT. And then I will admit that my formal involvement with ACAPT beyond the grant is still growing, but um it allowed me to broaden my awareness of the resources that are available that I can now draw on. So one of the things that immediately comes to mind is the blueprint for excellence. Um, that one was recommended to us for our fellowship, and I I used it um to support some of my work so far. And then outside of that, I think it's about the relationships that were that were built through through the fellowship um in relation to ACAP.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

Fabulous. Thank you. And we just look forward so much to all that you do and will do within for us and uh in the future in support of the profession. So thank you. Uh I'll I'll go to Dr. Gonzalez next.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Yeah, I think um for me uh the the experience uh of of the fellowship sort of confirmed to me that um leadership in in what we do specifically is is about continuity, not just like a checkbox thing. Um and the connection with ACAP very much has taught me uh about reframing leadership as not something that I'm doing by myself, uh, but rather framed as uh as a community and sustained uh through a community. And so um my direct involvement with ACAP was uh on one of the commissions, one of the NEDIC commissions, which is great, um a wonderful learning opportunity and an opportunity to uh to contribute, but but I'll tell you, and I'm sure I'm sure uh my two colleagues, all three of you actually would would totally agree. Um the other piece of it is is is a networking piece. Um and so uh a lot of that certainly is direct connections with ACAD, but a lot of it is sort of indirect. Um and so from that, uh I mean I've done a ton of things from you know from being a reviewer in a particular journal uh that is you know big in our uh profession to uh being sought out for for consulting gigs, uh I mean you name it, appearing on this podcast, for goodness sake. Uh so um it's been great uh for sure. And it's something that I I definitely look forward uh to continuing to uh to uh to increase in terms of my direct involvement. Um I was so so incredibly blessed to have as our as our group mentors, um Michael, uh Mysook, and uh and Kim. Uh every chance I get to speak with both of them, um, you know, I take it in particular Kim. Um and so uh again, it's it's something that I my relationship with ACAPT is something that I definitely look forward in in uh in continuing for sure.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

Well stated. I I love the relationships I had with my mentors, Mike being one, and uh and my cohort. I still have a meeting on my calendar to this day.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

Just lovely, lovely connections.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Dr.

SPEAKER_03 28:44

Brown.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Yes, I so before participating in the fellowship, I was already engaging with um numerous committees and ACAP that I continue to do so presently. So I've a member of Epic, I've um a member, I was a commissioner for NETIC. Um, I helped to found the DEI Consortium, which is no longer in existence, and I was a co-author on the diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging chapter in the blueprint. And so that just being engaged with those committees and consortia and being able to network as Dr. Gonzalez and Dr. Eton said, and being able to collaborate really made me feel like I found like a family with ACAT and really made me want to continue to participate with initiatives and efforts that ACAT puts forth, especially as it relates to having a positive and impactful um stance on physical therapy education. And so now that I'm in the fellowship and working towards completing it, you know, I find myself being even more attentive to the mission, the new mission of ACAP, and you know, striving toward innovation, inclusion, and um and excellence. And so when I complete the fellowship, I still envision myself maintaining active role within ACAPT with my current committees and even with, you know, new leadership roles, if you will, um, because I really want to help push that mission forward and increase collaborations within ACAPT and even seek, you know, leadership opportunities. I believe I don't know if it was Dr. Gonzalez or Dr. Eton said, you know, reframing leadership. You know, leadership is great, but leadership can always improve as we navigate whatever times that we're in currently. And so the fellowship has opened the door for me to have a much more um strategic view on how ACAPT advances excellence in education and how I can currently and in the future be a part of this effort.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

Thank you for those reflections and thank you all for your various roles. You've mentioned so many things that are going on within ACAPT that you've been a part of, um, ways that your skills have um helped your ability to engage in those things. I love what you said, Dr. Brown, in terms of really advancing excellence in our field. It's a big part of who we are and what we do. And um, at times, and certainly now, it's about advancing our profession itself and protecting our profession itself. Um, her her programs, her students. Um, we are very dedicated to these missions at ACAPT. And um I can't remember who said it, but we cannot do this work alone. It requires an army of volunteers with passion and care and compassion and skills. And so thank you for for really spotlighting how the fellowship has has helped you um cultivate what you kind of already had and building around those skills and those curiosities and bringing those back to ACAPT. We are very, very grateful. So I'm gonna wrap this discussion up at this point, and so uh I didn't plan this, so don't be angry with me. But I want to give each of you the same question for a rapid fire response and reflection. And so let's give our listeners one great statement, maybe a little sound bite to reflect on. So I'm gonna have you finish this sentence, but I'm adding something. I want you to shout out your group. For me, I'm big, let's go, big orange 2019. That was my fellowship group. All right, so finish this sentence and shout out your group. Academic physical therapy is stronger when leaders blank. So I will start with Dr. Eton.

SPEAKER_04 32:25

Oh, okay. So shout out to Big Orange class of 2025. Um, academic PT is stronger when leaders, I would say, work together rather than try leading alone. Perfect. Thank you. Go big orange.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

Okay, Dr. Gonzalez.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Yes, thank you. Uh for sure. Big shout out to my group from uh from the fellowship class of 2023. I hope I got that right. Uh, holy cow. And um, I'm pretty sure we were orange, but I'm colorblind, so I don't remember totally um because I'm colorblind. Um, I would say uh academic physical therapy is stronger when leaders see leadership as service and not status.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

Absolutely love that. Yes, let's snap to that. Okay, and Dr. Brown, if you can bring us home.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

I will surely try. So shout out to the Green Group Green Machine class at 26. So academic physical therapy is stronger when leaders commit to equity, foster belonging, embrace innovation, challenge assumptions, empower teams to problem solve collaborately and nurture the next generation of leaders.

SPEAKER_03 33:36

Wonderful. Thank you, all three. We need to put all of those on pillows and spread them around the world.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Leadership doesn't end when a fellowship does, it grows through continued learning, service, and connection. Thank you to Dr. Brown, Dr. Eton, and Dr. Gonzalez for sharing how the fellowship in higher education leadership shaped their leadership journeys and deepened their engagement with ACAT. If you're interested in learning more about the FAEL grant or other professional development opportunities, visit ACAT.org and our Flex community. Thanks for listening to FlexCast until next time.