Episode 5: What It Takes: Strategies Behind 100% NPTE Pass Rates

ACAPT’s latest episode of FlexCast features Dr. Beth Moody-Jones (University of New Mexico Albuquerque) and Dr. Jessica Cammarata (Saint Francis University), whose programs have achieved 100% first-time NPTE pass rates.

In this practical, insight-driven conversation, they share how intentional curriculum design, aligned assessment strategies, and strong student support systems contribute to consistent success. They also offer actionable tips and lessons learned that programs can apply to strengthen their own outcomes.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome back to FlexCast, where ACAPT brings you conversations that move academic physical therapy forward. Today's episode focuses on a topic that is top of mind for every DPT program. NPTE success. We're joined by two leaders whose programs have achieved 100% first-time pass rates. Dr. Beth Moody Jones, Professor and Division Chief at the University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, and Dr. Jessica Camarata, Department Chair and Associate Professor at St. Francis University. We welcome our host, ACAPT Vice President Dr. Patrick Pabian, Professor and Department Chair for the University of Kentucky. Today, they're sharing what's behind that success, from curriculum design to student support, and what other programs can learn from their approach. Now I'll turn it over to Dr. Pabian to get the conversation started.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Hey, thank you, Emily. And definitely thank you to Dr. Camarata and Dr. Moody Jones for joining us here. I believe this is a very important topic and one that a lot of education, educational leadership, and education researchers love to investigate and dig into. It's also something that's pretty hard to get into the pulse of what programs are really doing to ensure success of their students. NPTE pass rates are one of the most visible outcomes that many of us use. But behind every outcome is a system, a strategy, and a lot of intentionality as far as how to get there. So today we want to unpack a little bit about what this looks like in practice in a couple of institutions. To get us started, I would like to ask first, Dr. Moody Jones, about why you feel NPTE pass rates are such a critical measure for program quality.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Thanks, Patrick. Really appreciate being here. I guess in general, I think that MPTA success is not a last semester problem. It is one of the clearest public indicators of whether a program is truly preparing students to entry into the profession. It reflects more than just that test performance. I believe it's a longitudinal system level responsibility. It speaks about your curricular quality, your academic support, faculty alignment, and honestly, whether a program has built a system that helps students develop the knowledge, judgment, and readiness needed for safe practice. It also carries major implications for accreditation and also program reputation and workforce contribution. For us, it was uh a big wake-up call to have students not pass on their first try and realize the effect that it had on them.

unknown 3:04

Dr.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Camarata, can you add to this same area of measurement for your program?

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Yeah, I I see the board pass rates as an indication of return on investment for the students, right? They're looking at our schools, they're trying to make a decision if they have multiple offers. And by looking at the pass rate, it it just tells them, yes, if I go to the school, I have a fairly good expectation about what the end will look like. You know, that I'll pass the boards, I'll be a licensed therapist.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

And you say you said that students like to look in this, and you feel that that's a measure of kind of a programmatic quality. Uh, how do you feel that the pass rates reflect programmatic quality and also ultimately student student readiness?

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Yeah, you know, I know that um it is one of what we consider those three pillars of the knowing that didactic information, but also having the psychomotor skills and having the professionalism developed over time. So while it's not the only thing that shows program quality, it's probably the one that is most objective, the one that is most measurable that we can, you know, talk to other people about and be able to say in very quantifiable terms, this is what you will get out of this program.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Dr. Jones, do you agree with that notion of student preparation and readiness with program quality of these?

SPEAKER_03 4:30

I do. I think it really reflects whether our program is truly preparing students for safe entry into practice. They're not just testing outcomes, they're not just testing psychomotor skills, they're actually saying you will become a physical therapist if you go through our program and you will be safe and effective at what you do. It's not the only item, but it definitely uh I think the way we structure our program and the way we create this uh culture of from the beginning, you need to have successful outcomes to become a physical therapist. It is one of the things that has to happen in order for you to become a physical therapist. So let's as a team decide to make that happen. And the students are brought in, they're brought into the whole process, and um and we talk, we we talk about it very upfront and uh believe that it is very important uh for them to feel comfortable about being in our program.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

So you both dipped your toe in the water to my next kind of question about this measurement not being the only measurement that that you like uh for program quality and student preparation. So, how do you balance you know the focus on this exam with other things that might help prepare them for clinical practice?

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Yeah, I mean, I you know, we all know that clinical practice certainly isn't as black and white as the information in the textbooks, but to help them to learn, we have to start with that ideal scenario because those are the kinds of questions that you will see more frequently on the boards. And then within the curriculum, you know, this is why we have discussions, simulations, um, you know, lab practicals, and of course, what they develop more when they're out in clinic, that's when they start to think about what happens when the answer is gray, what happens when I'm confronted with something that really challenges my professionalism. So we certainly are building all of those, but within the classroom and the um lectures that we're giving and the exams that we're giving to match that material, that's where some of those board types of questions that do match a bit more of the kind of black and white of PT might might appear.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

I think it goes down to looking at it as that all outcomes are important, not just MPTE outcome, but every outcome leads to the MPTE outcome. So it's not isolated, it's definitely system-wide. Some of the things that we did to help our students be more successful in the MPTE was structure a very strong system that checks in with our students frequently, looking at how they're doing, and then also assess our curriculum and see if we're doing what we should be doing and making changes as we need to. So we help students be successful from the beginning, and we are very um upfront about the fact that we need you to be successful here because we have the data that shows if you are successful on your in your curriculum, you will be successful in the MPTE. So we have it as a culture shift where this is about them becoming a PT without the stress of worrying about whether they will pass. So everything we do reflects back to that. And um, we make our students accountable, we give them support, we tell them yes, it's very difficult. We changed all of our written questions to include MPTE-like questions to get them ready to take it. We've forcefully made our test our tests be 50 questions because that's how the MPTE is structured. So they get used to having to take that type of test. We spiral it, they start with two minutes per question and work up to the, I think it's 70 seconds that is on the MPTE for each question. So we work that into the curriculum. So it's a big it's starting from day one and telling them that this is definitely the main goal. And we're not going to take all of it right now, but we're gonna give you small parts that you can then build on as you go through this curriculum. So by the time you get to the end, it's no big deal that they're taking a large test over five hours.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Yeah, I think this transitions us well into our second segment, um, focusing a bit on the programmatic approach. Um Dr. Camarata, how does your program approach NPTE preparation? Is this really something that happens from day one, or is it more gradual progression in nature?

SPEAKER_02 9:36

It definitely happens from day one. When we have orientation with the students, you know, we really talk about what our ultimate goals for them are, which is that they can go out and have very successful clinics and then pass their or clinicals and then pass their boards and be the best PTs that they can be. And so we help them to understand that what might be perceived by them as a lot of rigor in the program or challenge to the program is is truly because we are setting them up for success when they get to those end pieces of the program. Um and I think when they do understand the big picture and um why we do things the way we do them, it helps them to be motivated and to take on the challenge that we've given them.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yes, and Dr. Jones, you kind of alluded to this in your last response too, with some of these early day preparations. Can you tell us more about the ramping up or the progression of focus or progression of some of these strategies?

SPEAKER_03 10:38

Yeah, we also start in orientation and actually pre-orientation. Some of the things that we prep our students with is the idea that this is not learning for the test anymore. And this is learning for life. And part of learning and learning strategy is also knowing about themselves and how they learn. And so we do a lot about learning styles, personality styles that affect learning. We talk about grit, we talk about mindset, and we try to build this whole idea that uh if they are not successful, that is not the end of the world. And it is, and we have the ability to help them get to be successful if they work with us. So that begins on day one. And it is, we are in this together. It will be rigorous, just like Jessica said, it will be hard, but we will get them there if they come along on the ride with us. So it is definitely a team approach from reaching out to get help when they need it, which is one of the hardest things for some students to do, um, to having kind of benchmarks along the way, not just benchmark testings, but benchmark check-ins. How are you doing? What's going on? Do you need a tutor? Um, we also have an academic progress committee that checks in on their progress twice a semester, midway and at the end. And we try to point out issues before they become fatal.

unknown 12:18

Dr.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Camarada, do you have similar structures or or strategies in place to instill this culture?

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Yeah, you know, I think that I mean, first of all, with the the curriculum itself, we and I and I do have to give thanks to the people who came before me in this program because they really did build a good, solid curriculum that we continue to refine each year as, you know, as practice changes a bit at a time. But from a culture point of view, we really think that our students have a lot of pride in the program and the outcomes that the classes before them have. And so there's that bit of, you know, they don't want to be the class to end up having bad board pass rates. So I do think that culture of pride in the program and sort of just wanting to carry that on really helps to motivate these students.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

I love that idea of culture of pride in the students, especially as they're aware of it. Do you have champions on your faculty that kind of carry this torch that really bring a heightened focus to the NPTE? Um, I assume you may, um, and not just you both as individuals, but are there others in your faculty that are champions for NPTE exam alignment and focus and such? Dr. Jones, I'll start with you.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

Um, yes, we have um we have two, one for each year, uh, who watch out for the um didactic portion of the curriculum and they help build our exams that we do at the end of each year that I think we'll we'll be able to talk about later on. But they make sure that the curriculum is aligned to our benchmark benchmark exam that we do at the end of year one and year two. But more importantly, about six years ago, we had a strategic plan. It was a planning meeting. We decided as a group that this was going to be our push, that we were going to go for excellence and we were going to bring the students along with us. So I I know it sounds crazy, but every single faculty is a champion. They all bought into it, they all said, yes, we want to support this, which meant that they changed how they assess our students. We spiraled our curriculum so that first year is doing one thing, second year is doing a little bit harder, etc. And we all talk to each other. Now we're a small faculty. There's 11 or 12 of us, and we can do that very easily. Um, we check in with each other every May to see how things are going, but we're also checking in every month at faculty meetings. So I have to say that every single faculty member is the champion. We just have somebody be in the coach.

unknown 15:18

Dr.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

Camarada, do you have some folks who carry the torch for you?

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Actually, we're very similar in that I feel that it's every member of faculty. We're also a small faculty. There are nine of us. Um, we're a relatively young faculty, um, either young in age or at least young in that transition from clinic to academia. And everybody's just really interested in this. So when we have curriculum meetings, it's the whole team of us. When we look at the content analyses from our uh practice exams or from the NPTE, it's all of us. So I think we really work as a team to both think about where the gaps are in our curriculum and then to make sure that we're using great instructional methods for our students to get where we want them to get to.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Thanks. And we we've really gotten into many of these specific strategies and methodologies that you all are using. Um, I wanted to shift uh slightly to outcomes. You know, so outcomes is a big piece of this, and you you both are obviously analyzing your outcomes. How far are you digging into analyzing your performance outcomes? You know, not just your passing rates, but maybe scores or domains. Are you you know longitudinally capturing this information? Because we know we all have you know good years and not great years, and and you know, if we can the hard part is sustaining that. Um how are you tracking your outcomes um for your exam performance?

SPEAKER_03 16:47

We track a lot um from admissions. We track, we we still have our students take the GRE. We track their um prerequisite GPA when they came in, as well as their undergraduate cumulative GPA over the last two years. We have that in one spreadsheet, and then as a part of that, we then also add their professional GPA over the entire program, as well as the benchmark exams that are after year one and year two, and the academic P. And we actually have been tracking it for over 10 years, and we have found that the biggest indicator uh of success on the MPTE is actually their curricular GPA. But the two benchmark exams are highly correlated and actually are predictors, um, as well as a little bit of that verbal GRE. And um and so for us, what that told us was number one, our curriculum is matching the rigor of the MPTE, at least in predictability, that our curriculum is matching the rigor of uh the MPTE, it's preparing them for it. But what the benchmark exams have done for us is allow the students to see how they measure up. And by being able to say that it is predictive, um, they take it very seriously and they want to do really well. Um I my dissertation was on when we made this change. And uh when we made the change, I interviewed students and said, you know, are is this too rigorous for you? Uh is this so bad that we give you these really comprehensive exams every year? And one of the one of the things I heard it was over all students, depending not dependent on whether they passed or not, um, was that if it wasn't rigorous, they wouldn't study for it. And if they didn't study for it, they wouldn't have done as well as they did, kind of like what Jessica said, their pride. And one of the things I heard from one particular student was the day I didn't pass that comprehensive exam, that was the last day that was ever gonna happen. And uh made sure that they didn't do that with the NPTE. So hope that answers your question.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Oh, absolutely. And and I love those responses. Um, and especially with creating that rigor. Um, I I wholeheartedly agree that the NPTE is is like a marathon. And in order to run a marathon, you gotta train for a marathon, I thought. Um, so Dr. Camarata, give us some other some of your specific um strategies for tracking outcomes, identifying outcomes, um, some of these same facets that Dr. Jones had said. Because I did I did hear her when she said for me, you know, and I think that's pretty important that she recognized that that is what's the formula for her institution. What's yours?

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Yeah, we actually play a lot with the data as well. Uh we plug in a lot of things to spreadsheets and just see what we come up with. Um, you know, it's really interesting for us to not only look at GPA and even admission, you know, the GPA within the program, but also the GPA that they came into the program with um from their undergrad, just to see how that correlates. But we're also really interested in looking at we give them a um uh a practice exam at the end of their didactic time. And then when they come back right before graduation, they take the PEAT, and then of course the NPTE. And we're really interested in the predictive value of those exams that they take before and what they can tell us about um, you know, our students' ability to be successful once they sit for the NPTE. So I do think from looking at that data, we've really gotten better at being able to advise students and say, like, you know, listen, based on this score from in the past, this is kind of what we have seen, and um, you know, given us some strategies moving forward because of that.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Yeah, and I'm I'm hearing a lot of intentionality and building of culture with your programs in in this domain. Um, you know, and it seems to be multifaceted as far as what you're telling us. Dr. Camarada, what if you could if you could go and say what was what's been the biggest impact? Like what's the thing? It seems like you're doing a lot of things, but what's the thing that seems to be the most valuable to you, your program, your students, your outcomes?

SPEAKER_02 21:43

You know, I think one of the most impactful things that we do is administer the uh practice exam right at the end of didactic before they go on clinic because that gives us essentially a whole year to help our advisees create study plans. We are able to Analyze that information, we share it with the advisors, we look at the content analysis and try to figure out which areas maybe they need to put a little bit more focus on as they create their study plan for the boards. We also, along with that, you know, recognizing sometimes students don't do as well as we expected them to. Sometimes we will talk to the students about test taking strategies and maybe try to identify what things they need to think about as they practice and get ready for the boards. So taking that test early creates that space in which we can work with them and get them ready for the, you know, the ultimate licensure uh exam.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

So to be clear, you're too having them take it with enough time so that you andor your faculty or their advisor can meet with them to go through individual specific strategies to help to try to get them to improve.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Do you feel and you feel this has been by far the most helpful thing?

SPEAKER_02 23:02

You know, if I have to try to like if I think through all the things we do with them, and I think what is the one thing that maybe is getting us a little bit of an edge, and and maybe other programs do this um frequently as well. I'm not sure. But again, if we don't catch it until they take the Pete at the end, it's it's a little bit too late to really get them on a good plan. But we've had so many students who were, you know, not terrible students, but also not necessarily at the top of the class who go out on clinic with a great study plan and they come back and they just blow us away with how much they have developed their knowledge in that year that they've been out in clinics. So if if you don't do it, it's a missed opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Great. Dr. Jones, what do you have to add to that? What do you feel has been your most impactful practice?

SPEAKER_03 23:56

The biggest change we made was in 2014 when we introduced uh comprehensive benchmark exams. And so we kind of take it one step further from what Jessica was talking about. Um we have an exam at the end of year one that includes year one content. So we align it with the curriculum. So our first year is primarily musculoskeletal, and so the 200 questions are all based on anatomy, evaluation, intervention, et cetera. And they are strata uh stratified, much like the MPTE, where if it's a four-credit class, it has more questions than a two-credit class, etc. We do that at the year at the end of year one. They have to pass it with a 70%. We offer a remediation exam one week later that they have to pass. Um, and then we do the exact same thing in year two with our neuromuscular content. Um, and we actually add in 25 questions from the first year. So they're revisiting content multiple times by the time they get to the end and they take the MPTE. Our third benchmark is the PEET. So these have all occurred May in the first year, we start in August, May in the second year, and then the PEET is in March prior to the April MPTE. We have a passing mark for graduation, which is they have to get a 65 on the PEED. However, if they want to take the April exam, they have to get a 70. Because if you look at the statistics from the academic PEET, that is pretty much guaranteed that they will pass on their first try. And and I know that there are some people out there that are like, well, what is the big deal about passing on your first try? But I think we all know that psychologically it is extremely stressful if they don't pass. And for us, being a small state with very few PTs and also the need to work right away, uh we we know that if they don't pass, they're even longer getting into the workforce. And uh many of them uh will be devastated by not passing. It becomes it becomes again back to that pride.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Yeah, I feel you both answered that question with intentional structures that have some similarities, yet differences, even with the the timing of that um practice exam of having it later versus a little bit earlier. And it sounds like both have their benefits to them. Um thinking about the perspective of the student, um, in our final, in our next segment, we have the focus on student success. Um, I'd love I'd love to hear about how your students are receiving um these um these tactics uh or the these strategies um throughout the curriculum. Are they aware? Are they receiving them positively? Are they intimidated? Um, what's the student perception of this been?

SPEAKER_02 27:10

So one exam that we do um in the curriculum in year two, we actually, for the final, put together uh information from the previous semester of neuroscience plus neuropathology plus their neuropatient management course. And it is a huge test. It's 150 questions. We actually do it in two 75-minute segments and tell them that they can have a break in between. And we also let them know that there will be classes or questions that have material from the previous year from neuroscience. And they often will really start by feeling seeming overwhelmed by that. You know, they can't believe that we would give them such a long test with information that we hadn't even covered that semester. But usually afterwards, the students will give me the feedback that they really appreciated that because I think it is very similar to what we're talking about with these sort of comprehensive each year. It helps them to both realize what they've retained and maybe what they haven't and need to go back and look at. And it also helps them to learn to have the endurance that is needed to take a long exam the way that the boards are, because you know, just being able to sit and focus for that long during one exam is definitely a challenge for some students.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Yeah, on the topic of student success and student support, um, Dr. Jones, how do you how do you identify those students who might need additional support along the way?

SPEAKER_03 28:41

Going back to our whole systems approach of checking in frequently on progress, um, we have built in these check marks where we're recognizing that a student is struggling to pass either a didactic exam or psychomotor, or might be even having some professionalism issues. We track that on a spreadsheet and we tell our students we're tracking it. So every faculty is putting their grades in for quizzes for low stakes, high stakes, everything. Um, and our academic progress committee is looking for trends. We actually color code it where it's green, they did okay, yellow, we're a little worried, red, they did not pass. We have a very rigorous um retake policy. Uh, we allow students to try again. We we understand that sometimes it's just not their day, but at the same time, we have a limit on that. So it's not like they can just retake everything or have a second attempt on everything. They will have a limit to that. So we allow that flexibility, but also still maintain a standard and they meet the standard. Um, we have open office hours in every one of our syllabuses. It is please set up a time to meet with your instructor should you have any issues. And we also have tutoring for our first year. So our second year students will tutor the first year, uh, have a line item budget uh for that. Um, and it's been very successful. So if they are not comfortable coming and talking to the professor, they at least are talking to peers and learning how to study for this type of material. I think one of the things that we all know is that there is so much coming at them. Learning how to figure out what the core concepts are is key, and it may not be how they studied in undergrad. So we really spend that first year working on study strategies and study skills. We have them read, make it stick, and we bring it up all the time, like all the faculty read it as well. That you know, you can't learn by memorizing and dumping, you have to keep doing it over and over again. We all know that. Um, so our students are on board with that, our faculty are on board with that, and so when we we notice something isn't going well or the student is struggling, um the students are quick to say, what can I do differently to improve this? Um, and we have multiple resources from the faculty, but also then from some of the literature that we've had them engage in. And of course, we have testing uh centers that we can send them to as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Dr. Camarada, what interventions have you found to be most effective for your program students?

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Yeah, I do think it's that whole concept of staying on top of their performance right from the beginning and communicating with one another as a faculty. So we all have some eyes on them. Um we do have formal processes where we send out alerts so that way we can sort of track as Dr. Jones was saying, um, you know, students who are who are sort of repeatedly having challenges, but we also have a lot of informal communications, um, you know, just popping our head in each other's offices and saying, like, hey, so-and-so didn't have a very good test for me. How are they doing in your class? And maybe we'll recognize that there's a bit more of a universal problem that needs to be addressed. So then we'll get the advisor involved. And so again, I think it's really just that communication and the benefit of having a small program really does allow us to all just track this group of students. We all know them very well. We are able to sort of put our brains together and try to do the best thing for each student. Um, sometimes that is learning test-taking strategies, sometimes that's recognizing that they need a little bit of extra instruction in something because they're just not quite grasping it. But we're able to work as a team and figure out what for that particular student is going to be the best thing to help them to catch back up and get where they need to be.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Dr. Camarata, um, there's you know a lot of student anxiety um around tests, you know, especially as these progress towards the NPTE. Um, so reflecting on that for both preparation of the NPTE or your comprehensive or annual, you know, uh comprehensive exams, um, how do you all support your students' well-being while they're preparing for that?

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Yeah, this is definitely an important topic and one that we do discuss. We always talk to the students about the importance of taking care of themselves, about getting enough sleep, about doing some form of exercise or, you know, something that just helps their body to relax, helps their mind to relax. And then I think it's a lot of just keeping eyes on them, checking in on them. And again, this goes back to the communication where if several of us are noticing that somebody's just not themselves in class, you know, we might might recognize that there's a problem and maybe their advisor then will check in with them. Um, you know, we do, of course, have counseling center on campus, uh, different resources that we could send the students to. And so I think the biggest thing is just staying observant and recognizing at an early point when a student might need a little bit of extra um help to for their well-being.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Dr. Jones, how do you all support your student well-being?

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Oh, very much like Dr. Camarado. Um, we we support them by normalizing that preparation is demanding. And we try to create this culture of support rather than fear. Um, that's huge. Uh, again, trying to let them know that we're there and we're in it with them and it's we're gonna help them get to the end. We try to be really clear with our expectations and that early preparation is key. So we speak to them about that from the beginning, that they get enough sleep. They should not be studying the night before. Um, and we really encourage them to uh do all the things that Dr. Camaretta said exercise, sleep, eat. We even have uh a little lecture at the beginning about creating a schedule, and the schedule must include sleep, eat, exercise, and study, not just all study. We believe that it really is part of professional growth to be able to handle the stress of our of our patient care. It is not easy to be uh out in the clinic, and we want them to begin having kind of a healthy um life balance, uh, which includes all the things that we just talked about.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Thank you. We'll we'll spend a uh a few minutes on our next segment on challenges and lessons learned. You know, we often we often fail at something before we succeed. Um so tell us tell us about something that didn't work early on, or in your in your process of learning how to best manage this for your program, you know, what what things didn't really go well uh with trying to prepare students?

SPEAKER_03 36:19

Early on, I think one of the pitfalls was thinking about MPTE performance too late, kind of what we've said already, and to in too narrow away. We used to test them right before the exam to verify that they were ready. When our our we've been around for over 50 years, so we had a comprehensive exam, but it was at the end of clinic, right before they took the MPTE. And just like Dr. Camarada said, that's too late. You can't help them, you can't change any behaviors, you can't, you can't get them ready if it's right before the MPTE. So we began to focus on remediation more into the program and made it a part of the program so that we were not trying to um help them at the end. So we changed our mindset and our systems, and we stopped being reactive and tried to be more proactive and more longitudinal. Um, but that was our, I believe, our biggest thing that didn't work.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Dr. Camarada, what have you all found through this process?

SPEAKER_02 37:36

No, one thing that occurred right around the time that I started at St. Francis, um, there were a group of people that took their boards early and they were not successful. And I think there were several things that contributed to that. But the take-home message of that was that we needed to be much more um intentional with who we would approve to take their boards early. And so we did create a policy that would sort of help students to understand like if if you meet this criteria, you can put in a request for taking your boards early, because of course we know there are reasons why students want to do that. Um, but also if you don't meet this criteria, this is why we don't approve you taking your board early, because because at the end of the day, we want you to be successful and we want to set you up in the way that we think is going to help you to get there the most. Um, so having that criteria really did help us to sort of sort out who was a yes and who was a no on that.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

So you all you both are doing doing well, obviously, with your evolution. Um, nothing's perfect though. Um, so how do you continue to improve? What's your future look like? Well, how do you want to ensure that you're continuing to demonstrate excellence in this area?

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Yeah, I think that one of the most important things that we do as a faculty is just continually strive for improvement, even if we've been pleased with our students' performance, even if we're pleased with the content area analysis. It's always a question of, you know, what could we even get better at here? Because complacency is not going to get us anywhere. And so I think we enjoy the challenge of, you know, even if we're pleased with our scores, like how we make that just a little bit better next year. And again, it's sort of as a bit of a culture thing within our department, um, where we feel really proud of, you know, my content areas, how are my students doing on the boards in those areas, and how can I even get that better? So I think that helps us to just continually refine the processes that we already have in place.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Dr. Jones, what can you add to that? How can you all continue down this path?

SPEAKER_03 39:53

I think the key is that continuous improvement comes from treating outcomes as feedback, not just results. So it gives us a lot of information. Every year during our faculty retreat, we look at the outcomes from the MPTE, from the academic PEET, from our curriculum, as well as the surveys that are done with our students. We look at our benchmarks, how are they doing? What is our average on our benchmarks? Are we dropping somewhere? We do data analysis on every question. Um, we look at our student progress and how we're doing with students being successful and making it from one year to the next. Um, again, looking at where students are struggling and should we change a policy to help them so that they're not as stressed during that particular part of the curriculum. So for us, improvement is an ongoing thing. It's not a one-time fix. Um, it requires a lot of reflection and uh again, looking at that outcome as feedback to improve versus a result that we're going for.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

I think those, I feel those are both two excellent perspectives at instilling a culture and creating uh an avenue for student success. So finish this sentence for me. Uh, Dr. Camarada, we'll start with you. Student success improves when programs.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

So this is my cliched answer, but it's a very true answer. It's when we really get to know our students individually and consider what is going to be the best for each one of their personal development. And that may be helping them to develop better study strategies. That may be uh recognizing when they do have gaps in their knowledge and looking for remediation options for them. And that may be helping their well-being, right? But there is no one size fits all, and so we have to know those students and know how we can bring out the best in each one of them.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Dr. Jones, student success improves when programs intentionally design a culture and a curriculum that makes readiness visible, measurable, and everyone's responsibility.

SPEAKER_03 42:25

And I think that marries well to Dr. Camarata saying everything's individual and uh we need to treat people where they're at or see them where they're at.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Wow, what an episode filled with jam-packed great information that our members can take back to not only improve their culture but look at data a little differently. Success on the NBTE doesn't happen by chance. It's the result of intentional design, strong support systems, and a shared commitment to student outcomes. Thank you to Dr. Beth Moody Jones and Dr. Jessica Camarata for sharing their insights and strategies within the ACAP community. And thank you to Dr. Cavian for hosting such an impactful conversation. For more resources and conversations like this, visit ACAP.org and stay connected through Flexcast. Thanks for listening. Until next time.