The Soul and Science of Great Writing with Mara Eller

The Architecture of Memoir with Ariel Curry, Acquisitions Editor at Sourcebooks (Ep. 4)

• Mara Eller • Season 1 • Episode 4

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What makes for a truly great memoir?

In this episode, we sit down with Ariel, co-author of Hungry Authors and a veteran editor specializing in nonfiction. While many writers approach their life stories with pure "soul," Ariel argues that a great memoir requires a rigorous "science"—a structural logic that delivers a powerful transformation.

In this episode, we discuss:

  • The Architecture of a Great Book: Why the "underlying logic" of your book is just as important as your prose itself.
  • Memoir vs. Autobiography: The critical distinction that most first-time authors miss.
  • Transformation as the Core: How to map the internal and external shifts that keep a reader turning pages.
  • Polarity Shifts: Using "micro-transformations" to build momentum in every chapter.

Ariel Curry is a senior editor for nonfiction at Sourcebooks. She lives in Chattanooga, TN, with her husband and three beautiful children. You can find her at hungryauthors.com or on Substack.



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Welcome to the Soul and Science of Great Writing, where the mastery of craft meets the mystery of creation. I'm your host, Mara, er, freelance editor, book coach, and writing teacher with over 16 years of experience. I'm obsessed with the transformative power of words and with understanding what makes writing truly exceptional, not just to help my clients, but to grow my own craft too. The previous three episodes set the stage for our work together here on this podcast by defining our terms. Now we're kicking off a series on memoir with our very first guest, interview with my friend and colleague, Ariel Curry, senior editor for nonfiction at Source Books, as if that wasn't special enough already, we also recorded this interview together in person in Ariel's home. I was in town for a conference and Ariel was kind enough to host me, so we thought it would be fun to do the interview face to face, which was a real treat. We discuss what memoir is and is not the architecture that makes for a great memoir and several of Ariel's favorite books, both memoir and fiction. She is just so knowledgeable and truly a delight to talk with. So I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. Let's dive in. welcome to the Soul and Science of Great Writing, Ariel. Uh, we're really excited to have you here. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be your first guest. Yes, it's an honor and I'm honored to have you here. You're someone I hope to have on several times because there's basically no one. I love talking about books and writing with more. Yeah, same. We've known each other about five years, I think. Yeah. Oh my gosh. and Ariel has not only become a wonderful friend, but also been an amazing mentor to me as I've grown my business as an editor and now a book coach. So I just really appreciate you. I would not be where I am today or be really the person I am today without you. Aw. Well thanks. I'm so glad that I can help and contribute in some way. so today we're gonna talk a lot about memoir specifically since we're kicking off our series on memoir. But I like to start, or I should say, I will be beginning my interviews with a standard question, which is, do you see yourself as someone who tends to lean more on the science side of writing or more on the soul side of writing? Definitely the science. Yeah. I am really good at learning rules and applying rules, and I was kind of trained in nonfiction, not with like rules, but with like, there's a logic to nonfiction and I was able to see that. And through all of the book mapping I've done and training I've done, I've noticed a lot of patterns. So I'm really good at that like pattern recognition, understanding like the bigger picture of how things are working at like a structural level. So I would definitely say I lean into the science of writing rather than the soul. I, it's not that I don't care that like the words sound good. Obviously I want'em to sound good too. And I think I have grown in that aspect of my own writing. but I care more that the book is going to deliver the transformation it's promising to the reader, and I see that as something that has almost like a formula to it. um, that's a lot of the work that I have done as an editor when I was a book coach formerly and a collaborator. Right. Sorry, I jumped, I got so excited. I jumped right into the question, but Yeah, that's okay. Give us some of your background because you are very credentialed Yeah, well, I was gonna say, I, you know, the, the reason in all of my work, I tend to focus on the big picture because I think I am pretty good at spotting that, like underlying architecture of a book. so I guess that would be more of the science of it. But yeah, my background, um, so I started in traditional publishing, uh, as an editorial assistant and kind of worked my way up to editor at an academic press for almost 10 years. And then, and then I took a few years off and I was freelance editing and book coaching and collaborating with writers, or with authors rather. So I was kind of the writer, and ghosting for them. And then, uh, and just to make sure there might be some readers who aren't mm-hmm. Sure what ghost writing is and thinks that might sound kind of like a spooky mystery there. So what is ghost writing? Ghost writing is when I, as the writer would partner with the author. So it was their ideas, their stories, their words, and it was my job basically to just help them organize, to find that underlying structure, that architecture for their book, because that is the part that is I think, hard for a lot of people to understand is like how to best organize all of their ideas and thoughts. And then I would, I would write it for them. So all of their ideas, all of their words, but I'm the one writing it for them. And, and then it's published under their name, so it's not my name on the cover typically. but yeah, ghost writers are the ones who, you know, their expertise is how to write and deliver a great book. And, um, the authors basically give them the, the ideas and the stories. I love that word architecture that you use, particularly because I, one of the metaphors that I used, I used several analogies mm-hmm. In my episode about science, the science of great writing last week, and one of them is building a house. And so I love that word architecture. Why do you choose that word and what are you thinking of when you talk about creating, an architecture for a book? Mm-hmm. So I, I like that word because it implies that there are, again, like I, I always go back to there's an underlying logic in most of nonfiction, even memoir to some extent. Um, for example, it's, it's more obvious in prescriptive nonfiction. Like when you read a book, usually the ideas in the book go from like big idea to small or from like abstract to concrete or they'll reverse. They'll start with something really, succinct and concrete and then broaden it out to, you know, to all readers or broaden the audience in some way is a really common frame. So there's like, there's underlying patterns in how to. Structure a nonfiction book, especially prescriptive nonfiction. You see it really clearly. and so, that's why I think of it like an architecture because it's almost like there are rules, like, you know, in architecture you wouldn't start with the roof, you would start with the foundation. And so like in prescriptive nonfiction especially, there's like, there's foundation that needs to be laid, and then you're scaffolding the ideas in a certain order and in a certain way so that you are building, the ultimate building that you've promised the reader you were gonna build. Um, so I think that is a great metaphor for those reasons. Yeah. I guess there are parts of architecture that you see, like when you, when you walk into a home. So one of the things I talked about was mm-hmm the science being like the foundation and the walls and the wiring and. the support beams and a lot of it that you don't see as mm-hmm. The person welcomed over for a dinner party. Yes. But if they're not there, it's gonna be bad. And if they're not good, it's gonna be bad. And you will then notice it. Yes. But you also do see some of it, I mean, you would notice, how many windows or mm-hmm. Certain style. do you see style as being part of science or, mm, I don't clearly differentiate between style and voice. So when you say style, I think of like, oh, just the author's natural voice. And I would put that more in the craft category or the art category versus the science category. it's interesting you use craft because words are so tricky. That's true. That's, this is, is our whole job is like, yeah. Picking the right words and knowing the right words, but I've been using craft as more science. Oh, interesting. Okay. And creativity. Oh, like, as kind of like that partnership, but of course, none of this is so clearly divided as we make it sound when we're parsing out these things kind of as a mental exercise. But we can say the art. Yeah. Yeah. The, I think voice and style is, at least, I typically see it as more part of the art of writing. And it's usually like when I'm looking at a book or when I'm editing a book, you know, in my current role, as an editor, I am more concerned with the underlying structure and the science part of it is the author doing a good job, putting these ideas in the right order, and structuring that knowledge so that the reader is really accomplishing a transformation throughout the book. I don't really care as much about the author's voice, as long as it's clear. Like as long as your, your writing makes sense and you're not confusing the reader and you're able to bridge those gaps from idea to idea, then I think you're doing your job. And honestly, I think more voice is usually better. And voice, I did mention in our episode on Soul as being personality on the page. Mm-hmm. So is that kind of what you're thinking of there as like wanting to see mm-hmm. Some personality something Yes. That it doesn't, well, certainly doesn't sound like ai, but it, no. You know? Mm-hmm. It, it couldn't have been written by anyone. It had to be written by this person. Yeah. Yeah. okay, so you're already touching on some of what my next question was gonna be, but another question I wanna ask everyone on the show is, what qualities would you identify as being most important for great writing, across genre as much as mm-hmm. We can identify that, and then we'll talk more specifically about what that looks like in memoir. Yeah. I think across genre, the ability to convey your ideas without any of the like, assumptions that we make. Like, I find a lot of writers, especially first time authors or you know, authors who haven't been doing this a very long time, I find that, they typically make a lot of assumptions about what their reader knows and they kind of just expect that their reader is following along with them. And so as you're reading like a paragraph, you're going, wait, how did we get from here to there? Those two things. There is not a clear connection. And this is, I think on a smaller level that is architecture too. It's a little bit, you know, finer architecture, but it's almost like a computer algorithm where if you were to write a piece of code and just say like, first this and then you know that over there, but you're not telling the computer all of the steps it needs to take to get to that next, you know, bigger step. then it's not gonna be able to make whatever you're doing. And I think knowledge is like that, or writing is like that for the reader too, where you have to be able to say, this is the exact, Line of thinking, or this is the events and how, you know, what happened, so that the reader can follow along without trying to guess at what you're saying. And then I would say the other thing is voice. Like voice is super important, especially in the age of ai, right? Like voice is gonna be one of those things that continues to differentiate human writers from chat GPT writers, not that there's anything wrong with using chat GPT to some extent, but I think there are limits, um, and ethical boundaries that writers have to really hold to. But voice is definitely gonna be one of those things that continues to draw readers in and convey, a sense of authority as an author and a sense of trust with the reader. I think voice is one of the most, effective tools that a writer has for drawing the reader in and getting them on board, with the book. Yeah, that's really interesting because it sounds like you could condense that to clarity. Mm-hmm. Which is that step, you know, the logical continuity. Mm-hmm. Uh, which if we go back to our house analogy mm-hmm. Of course every analogy fails at some point. But yeah. I always love to figure out where that point is. Right. But, um, I was thinking as you were talking about that it'd be kind of like going into a house.'cause you said that's like a more of a micro architecture and Yeah. It's like you have this glorious structure. It looks great from the outside, but then you go to take your reader on a tour. Mm-hmm. And oh wait, there's no door between this room and that room, but you're asking them to go from the dining room to the living room. Yep. And you forgot a door. Yep. Or like, when I was growing up, my mom, designed a house. Mm-hmm. And she had an architect help with the blueprint. Mm-hmm. But. We realized later that he forgot to put stairs into the basement. Oh. I was like, oh, okay. So we had to like, take space out of a room to add stairs. Oh gosh. So that was like another metaphor there for like Yeah. You know, if you want your reader to get to this place, you gotta make sure there's a staircase and that you're not missing any of those steps, Yeah. And so, so clarity is maybe how I would mm-hmm. You know, it's an umbrella term that would encompass that part. And then voice, which is more on the soul side. which you said is important for trust. So I hear clarity, trust, and I think maybe trust is part of a connection with the reader. Mm-hmm. So the clarity to communicate what you're trying to say clearly, because none of the rest of it matters. Yep. If you don't have that, but also the reader. Needs to feel a connection Yeah. With you as the author, which maybe, maybe matters equally, you know, they're not gonna keep reading perhaps if they don't feel that connection. Would you say that that connection aspect matters more in some genres more than others? yes. If you're writing a reference book or something, then I would say, voice isn't gonna matter all that much. and like that warmth and connection with the reader isn't gonna matter all that much. But I think if you're writing commercial nonfiction, whether it's memoir or prescriptive nonfiction, you need strong voice. Commercial as opposed to academic. Yes. Mm-hmm. Basically, yeah. Commercial being the kinds of genres that you would find at an airport bookstore, I think is a really good way to think of it. Imagine you're looking at the Hudson's shelves, you're gonna be, and then the nonfiction that you would find there. You're gonna be seeing a lot of memoir and the, you know, the big prescriptive nonfiction books. the kind of prescriptive nonfiction that often has the author's picture on the cover. Although not exclusively. Yeah. Not, oh, I mean, let them theory doesn't have Yeah, that's true. That's true. The author's cover or atomic habits. That's true. Okay. There's a lot of big self-help that it's not actually really all that in vogue to have the author's Yeah. Face on the cover of self-help. Okay. Because you want the reader to see themselves in the cover. Oh. Not the author. So if like memoir, you will often see the author, especially if the author's a celebrity where their face or their name is gonna be a big part of selling the book, then they will be on the cover. But for self-help and you know, other prescriptive non-fiction, your promising a transformation to the reader. So it actually doesn't make that much sense to have the author's face on the cover unless again, they are really known by their face. Like, um, we are publishing a book, from an HGTV, reality show host, and it is prescriptive. but because she is a TV personality, we are having her face on the cover. And that makes a lot of sense because readers are used to seeing her in a position of authority as the expert in all of these, home design TV shows. So in that case it makes a lot of sense. Sorry, that's my cover spiel. Okay. So that's really interesting because you're saying that prescriptive nonfiction, which is, you know, self-help, personal development, it's. Really explicitly about the reader and their transformation. However, Memoir isn't entirely about the author either. So let's shift gears mm-hmm. And talk specifically about memoir. and I definitely wanna hear what qualities you think are most important for memoir. I'm assuming it will include the two you already mentioned. Mm-hmm. But we can talk more about how that might work in memoir. But first, let's define what memoir even is So. In your book with your co-author, Liz Morrow, You define memoir as, and by the way, you guys, hungry authors, their book is a phenomenal resource for anyone writing any kind of nonfiction. So if that's, you definitely check it out. you say, memoir is the recounting of an author's transformation through a specific event or scenario in their lives. Can you unpack that a little bit more for us? Mm-hmm. And help give us a clear understanding of what memoir is and is not. Yes. So I, I do think it's helpful to talk a little bit about what memoir is not because I do find that authors typically they say they're writing a memoir and then they feel like they need to start with their childhood or even, like I've had seen, I was born at a young age. Yeah. or I've seen authors even start with like their parents or their grandparents, you know, generations past. And all of that may be, interesting, relevant backstory. But if you're starting there and it's a, phase by phase recounting of your life, then you're writing autobiography, not memoir. So what makes memoir different is that it is really consolidated and focused on one specific event or scenario or set of circumstances in your life and how you changed through those things. So yes, it's like we can, we can talk a little bit about how memoir is also for the reader, but the main way the story is delivered is through the author's perspective. So it's always written in the first person, I, this happened to me. and it's that story of transformation through a specific set of circumstances or even a specific time in their lives. sometimes there may be some overlap with autobiography, especially if like, you know, the set of circumstances is something that you've struggled with your whole life. Like, let's say, you know, you're telling the story of, a health condition that you've had since you were born, then it might actually make sense to start at your birth if that's truly relevant to the memoir being about your transformation because of that, situation or health condition. but typically I would say memoir is going to be best delivered when there's a really succinct timeframe because for most of us. The big challenges in our lives are time bound. And so if you can kind of identify, here's where, the hard situation started and here's where I finished. And that's always the thing that's hard for memoirs to figure out is, well, when is it done? Because we are never done right? We're always evolving and learning. but a memoir is done when the author has achieved an inner transformation. And so that may come before the external problem you're dealing with has been resolved. But really it is about an author's internal transformation, usually because of an external set of circumstances that are hard or difficult in some way. Yeah. one of the things I love about, your hungry author's approach to both prescriptive and Non-prescriptive memoir. Creative nonfiction. Yeah. Creative nonfiction includes narrative nonfiction, is your focus on transformation. that gives, I think, writers a really clear, not that it's simple or easy, but it gives a clear focus of, this is the most important thing you mm-hmm. You're not ready to have a finished first draft. Mm-hmm. Whatever your process might be until you can clearly articulate the before and after. Mm-hmm. But I, then it gets more complicated because there's the, the inner transformation mm-hmm. And the outer transformation. And differentiating those two things is something I've found really, really helpful. And interesting, because there can be Positive transformation and negative transformation. The positive externally. Like externally. Yes. Internally, it has to be positive. Yes. Yes. So I'm wondering if you could explain that a little bit more for us. Mm-hmm. Maybe give us an example Of, first of all, what are we even talking about when we're saying internal and external? And what would be an example? So the most important thing is that there has to be that internal transformation. What we mean by that is that the set of assumptions that the author makes, the knowledge that the author has the beliefs that the author, espouses, the character of the author is one way at the beginning of the book, and it has to change by the end of the book. So a really good example. would be, Eat, pray, love by Elizabeth Gilbert. everyone knows the external story, like pretty much, you know, most of us have read this book, have seen the movie. So we know this is a story of a woman who gets divorced and she goes on this trip around the world to India, Indonesia, and Italy. Italy first, so Italy, Indonesia, and then India. No, I have those backwards. you eat in Italy. Prey in India, love in Indonesia. That's what it's, okay. So she goes on this trip around the world and that's the external circumstances. But internally what's happening is she starts the book and she's really unhappy with her life, but she doesn't know what she wants. So she go, the whole reason she goes on this trip. Is to figure out what she wants and to figure out what kind of life would actually make her happy, because, husband and future kids was not working for her. by the end of the book, the internal transformation that is accomplished is that she goes, I finally have figured out what will make me happy, and I am really happy. on the most basic level, the internal transformation of this book is like unhappy, not in touch with her purpose to, purpose filled life and very happy. So that's, you know, the internal transformation that she goes on. So there's an, an emotional element of it for sure. And then often we might even say always there's an emotional shift mm-hmm. And, a mental shift, Yes. Like there's, there's a change in mm-hmm. Perspective that is impactful. Yes. Yeah. So in this situation, obviously the external circumstances do change positively. She goes from, stuck in a marriage that she was very unhappy in. By the end of the book, she's found she's divorced and she's found new love. So that's a very you, but she gets divorced towards, at the very beginning. Yeah. That's like the inciting incident, the event that propels her, sets her onto this journey. But, so I do wonder, the external transformation can be very obvious. Sometimes, but once the inciting incident happens, she's divorced. At the end, she's still divorced. Mm-hmm. So how is that a transformation externally? Because she. She finds new love. So like the, she's in one relationship then she gets divorced. Yeah. Fairly early, but then she, by the end of it, she's got a new, new guy in her life. So arguably the book would not work as well or might not quite work if she was still single at the end. No, I disagree. Okay. Because I, it really doesn't matter what changes externally. So if nothing changed in an obvious way that externally, that happens. Okay. Okay. So, like, for example, Kate Bowler's memoir, uh, everything Happens for a reason in other lives. I've loved at the beginning of that memoir. She's diagnosed with cancer and she goes on this internal, primarily internal journey. And by the end of the book, she still has cancer. Nothing externally has changed, like the set of circumstances that kicked off this entire memoir. Nothing changes externally for her. She still has cancer. She still has cancer to this day. So every chapter still have cancer. Yes. Every chapter still have cancer. Nothing in that way has changed, but she goes on an entirely internal journey. Mm-hmm. So by the end of the book, basically, at the beginning of the book her cancer diagnosis kind of throws her faith into crisis. By the end of the book, she's worked through all of the doubts and all of the crisis, and then she decides, you know, she still has faith for these reasons. and she's able to, say she has a deeper faith now. So in that way, it is still an internal positive transformation. You can also have a negative external set of factors, meaning they're worse off at the end. Yes, they're worse off externally than they were at the beginning, but there's still a positive internal transformation. It's rare, I think, in memoir, like it's rare because I think a lot of authors don't wanna write about like circumstances that were really hard where they ended up worse. So I, I don't know, to be honest, I'm like, I can't even think of an example of a memoir, but you do see it a lot in fiction. So my favorite fiction example of this is Crime and Punishment by Theodore Sevki. And so RAs Ovv the main character at the beginning of the book. You know, internally he is obsessed with greatness and what will it take to be a great man? He ends up committing this murder because he thinks that that will make him great in some way. The book is him, you know, avoiding responsibility for that. But also internally, he meets a woman who he falls in love with, who ends up being like, you know, a beautiful guiding light for him by the end of the book. And, sorry, I'm giving it away in case you wanted to read it, but, um, by the end of the book, he accepts responsibility for the murder goes to prison, but that's an internal positive transformation because he was able to take responsibility and he was able to kind of give up his, twisted views of what greatness means and what it means to be a great person. So that's a really good example of like still a positive internal transformation, even though there's a negative external transformation, he goes from free to in prison, definitely negative externally, doesn't he still have the love of the woman? Yes. So, yeah. So in that sense, there, there's the primary plot line. Mm-hmm. Which is definitely the negative transformation he ends up in prison. But then there's still a positive transformation on that secondary plot line of the love story. That's true. so I was also thinking in eat, pray, love. I think this is what you were saying, but like it could have worked basically just as well. Mm-hmm. And maybe even in some ways more powerfully. Mm-hmm. If she had this love but then had to mm-hmm. Leave him behind or, you know, ended up single at the end. So that also kind of brings up one more thing I'd love to quickly talk about as far as transformation is maybe talk about Kate Bowler's memoir, even though the external situation, like the basic circumstance on a global level. Mm-hmm. Looking at the book as a whole, didn't change. Starts out with cancer, ends with Cancer. I'm guessing that if you looked at it on a chapter by chapter level mm-hmm. There were some changes in smaller sort of more specific circumstances. So you know, the book is not just, I have cancer, here are my thoughts. Yeah. I have cancer, here are my thoughts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's a really good point that externally there are still like mini shifts that are happening. So in hungry authors and in, my work that I do with Liz, we talk about these kind of chapter by chapter like micro, shifts as polarity shifts. And that is not language that we came up with that is from Story Grid. So that's a fiction concept that was really popularized by Sean Coyne in the story grid that we are kind of saying applies to memoir as well. That's still within memoir, each chapter or each scene still has a polarity shift, and it may be a polarity shift primarily internally, or it may be a polarity shift, primarily externally. And you don't have to have both transformations in every single chapter or every single scene. Sometimes the point of a scene is just to say, Hey, this terrible thing happened, or Hey, this really good thing happened externally, and that's okay. so yeah, that does. And polarity is another way of saying the positive or negative Yes. That So I know in Story Grid, which I also learned about from you, which is a fantastic resource, even though it's focused on fiction. Yeah. Since, well, I'll add here to our definition of memoir that Pure memoir, you know, some memoir gets into a hybrid category where it's blending more prescriptive, you know, talking to the reader, you should mm-hmm. Or, you know, try this, that kind of thing. But pure memoir should read like a novel in the first person. Yeah. And will be using all the same mm-hmm. Techniques of fiction, except that it's bound by the facts Yes. Of what happened. Which I think is what makes it so extra special because it forces and invites mm-hmm. The writer to perform this sort of alchemy of taking normal life, or even if it's more of an adventure, but transforming it into something more magical in a way. But I digress. point being polarity the concept there is, every scene or every moment has a charge. Mm-hmm. Either positive or negative. And it can, they also talk about it as one plus sign or two plus sign. Mm-hmm. So it can go from. Super positive to less positive, or it can go from a little positive to more positive. Mm-hmm. Or you know, same thing with negative. Negative, yeah. but it only needs to be either an internal change or an external change. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe ideally there's both. Yeah, we're getting a little, I don't know the weights here, but obviously like you, you have to keep changing internally. the reader has to be able to see that internal transformation happening. So like you can't go too long without an internal transformation as part of it. But I think fairly often we do see you know, a single scene where the goal is really just to say this set of external circumstances changed either negatively or positively. and then maybe in the next chapter, you're kind of returning back to the internal transformation to say. Here's how that affected me. Here's how that shifted. You know, my goals or priorities or something like that. Okay. So we just talked a bunch about the author's transformation. who is the main character mm-hmm. By definition That the hero or heroine needs to be different by the end mm-hmm. Than they were at the beginning. there should be some changes in their external circumstances. Mm-hmm. Um, at least on a more micro level, but that part's a little bit more optional. but there definitely needs to be. An emotional difference and a perspective difference. Mm-hmm. Which I often call like an insight, like a central insight Yes. they're probably learning lots of little things along the way. Yep. But I coach my authors to identify the central, most important overarching insight that's a truth about life. Yes. Or being a human, or that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. That fundamentally changes our perspective on the world and usually has some kind of external impact, at least in small ways. Which sounds like you agree. Mm-hmm. Yep. Um, so in essence, that's what it, the book is about. Mm-hmm. It, it is about this central insight that the author gains through the circumstances that they encountered. Yes. That the story illustrates. Yes. Yes. Which is where we start to get into the concept that while the story, the illustration is about the author's life. Yes. The insight actually needs to reach beyond Yes. The author's life and connect with the reader. Mm-hmm. Could you say a little bit more about that? Yeah. I think it's really important that whatever the author is learning throughout this story be something that the reader can relate to in some way. That's how you're going to bring readers on board, even if these specific set of circumstances you're dealing with is something that they have never experienced in their lives. for example, one of my favorite memoirs is Grayson by Lynn Cox, which I talk about a lot because I have a thing for Ocean Books, even though I don't like the ocean. which is weird. I know. I think about that. So Ariel recommended Grayson to me. Yep. Oh, sometime last year it was on my list of mm-hmm. Best books that I read. If you follow hungry authors, you've heard me talk about it a lot. Yeah. But it's the main character, uh, the hero that the writer is Yeah. Literally in the ocean, the entire book. Yes. And you have said even on this visit Yeah. That humans do not belong in the ocean. Correct. But I wonder if that's part of the appeal for you? Maybe. But it's just a great book. It's really well written, so it is really well written. Please continue. Anyways, for those of you who have not read it, um, and don't listen to hungry authors all the time, I forgive you. but basically she's, I think she's 17, she's in high school. Lynn is just in on her like daily swim off the coast of Long Beach in California. And she realizes, but she's like a long distance ocean swimmer open ocean somewhere. Yes. And she realizes that a baby whale is following her. It got separated from its pod and it's following her now. And so she can't get out of the water because if she goes too far to shore, it will follow her and beach itself. So she has to stay in the water with this whale. And she has, you know, she talks about like. It kind of wanders away from her, but then it comes back and she's meanwhile trying to get help from like these fishermen in the boat and the like lifeguards that are out there and, um, and she's in the water for, and she's in the water for hours. I mean, I think the whole thing, the entire book takes place over like four or five hours. It's just phenomenal. so part of what I admire is like, oh my gosh, what an incredible set of like, restrictions on a book and to deliver such an incredible transformation. Um, but like obviously most of us have not had to be in the ocean for several hours because a whale is following us. Like that's not a set of external circumstances that I can relate to. However, her internal transformation. Which is, you know, her like awareness of, and just awe of like the natural world. That is something that I have felt that is something that I can deeply relate to is moments in my life when I have been just absolutely aw by nature. And when I have felt, or even like an, a connection with an animal, like most of us, I think have experienced, you know, having a special bond with an animal in our lives. And that's very much what the book is about too, is that she creates this really beautiful special bond with grace in the whale and has this really, really cool experience. And so I think a lot of us can relate to that part of it. So yes, so that all goes to say whatever your insight is, and I really like that term, the whatever you learn by the end of the book has to be something that the reader can also apply to their lives, even if the set of external circumstances that you've been dealing with is not something they can apply to our lives. Like you can have a really great memoir about. some crazy circumstances, like another great memoir is, um, in Love by Amy Bloom, where her husband chose to, go through assisted suicide when he was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's. Not something that I have, that I have had to experience in my life. However, I do know what it's like to, you know, love someone deeply and disagree with the choice that they make, and also choose to love them anyway. So like, there's that insight that you learn has to be applicable no matter what the external circumstances are. Yeah. I'm wondering, I guess the way I define insight is that it is a universal thing. Mm-hmm. But I'm wondering if you could say a little more about maybe where you see authors go wrong with that. Mm-hmm. Like, is it that they're not thinking about that, that you need an insight at all? Or are they finding something that's still too specific to that unique circumstance? I think it's more often the former, like more often I see authors who are so focused on the external circumstances and what it took for them to get through all of that, that they don't think about what did that circumstance teach you? And I, I think that's where I see the biggest flaw. Great. Yeah. it's great news for me because, because I'm thinking about my work with authors and, I'll be sharing more about mm-hmm. An upcoming memoir writing program that I'm gonna be offering again. But we do focus a lot on what did you learn? Mm-hmm. You know, of like that step being, like, the story is not over until you get there. And then even a little bit more to, to say, basically prove it to me. Mm-hmm. Show me something that's different in your life because of that insight. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And that, that ending piece of it, like the story isn't over until that inner transformation has been accomplished. And also once that inner transformation has been accomplished, the story is over. So that's another thing that I find is tricky for authors too, is because they might say, like Kate Bowler might have said at some point to her editor, but I still have cancer. My story's not over. But no, her book is over when her internal transformation was completed. So I think that's another thing too, is that a lot of authors, um, when I was coaching especially, would come to me and be like, well, I wanna write a story, but like, it's just not done yet, so I don't feel like I can write it yet. And I'm like, well. And, and to be honest, like I felt that way too about, you know, I've thought about writing a memoir about, our infertility journey and fostering and all this kind of stuff that happened, in our, our search to become parents. and I felt like for a long time, but it's still, it's still ongoing. We're still not parents, so I can't write about it yet. So I fall into that trap too. But, I think yeah, the more important thing is that that internal transformation is accomplished, and when it is accomplished, you have to stop. Because at that point, there's no reason for the reader to keep reading. So if you keep going, the reader's gonna get bored. Yeah. I mean, there's so much we could talk about as far as how do you set up that transformation? How do they, How do you let your reader know that's where we're heading and Well, I can tell you the way to. The way to find really good examples is look at any memoir, and if you wanna see how they deliver that like insight, it always comes in either the very last chapter or like the second to last chapter. But one of the very last chapters they should have, if they're a really good writer and like, certainly Elizabeth Gilbert does this, in one of her last chapters, she says like, I've learned now what I need to be happy, and I'm really happy about the, the woman that I've become essentially. Mm-hmm. So that's how, that is the moment when, you know, aha, her transformation is complete now. But you also have to give the reader a clue at the beginning of the book so that they know. Mm-hmm. Oh, this, I mean. You don't have to say, this is my journey to find, you know? Right. Or, I'm struggling with thinking this way. But I guess maybe that's defined by your inciting incident. I think it can also be defined by a question that you're asking at the beginning of the book. or a sense of dissatisfaction. Like, it's gonna be pretty clear to the reader what the problem is that you're trying to solve, or it, it should be. Um, for example, I just wish I had a Bigger Kitchen by Kate Strickler, this is a memoir in essays, and at the beginning of the book, the problem that she identifies is comparison to others. So she's saying she's so, dissatisfied even though she like objectively has so much in her life and she's very grateful for it. There's always a sense of like, but something's missing. I wish I had a bigger kitchen. I wish I had this. Oh, I am comparing myself to all these other people online and their perfect lives, and I know the reality of my own life is not like that. So it's pretty clear right from, you know, almost the first page, what the problem is that sense of internal dissatisfaction that she has with her own life, the reader knows immediately, okay, that's the problem that we've gotta solve here. And you, you have to introduce that problem very early, in the book. Yeah. I think one of the problems, one of the struggles I see for the authors I've worked with is figuring out, well, what, what is the most important internal transformation? What is the most important insight? And then like, when did I learn that? Mm-hmm. You know, even if they're, they're able. To look back. It often does require having a bit of time To give that perspective. And it's, so maybe they, they can identify what they learned, but then they have to identify when they learned it. Mm-hmm. And there's a little, creative license mm-hmm. To make that slightly more dramatic. sometimes we have epiphanies. Mm-hmm. A lot of times it's more gradual. Yeah. And it, it can take a lot of. Internal work to figure out. What was that and when did I learn that? Yeah. And then, and how do you illustrate that? You've learned that? Yeah. Like how are you demonstrating, are you acting a different way? Do you say something different? Do you have a conversation where you say you've changed your mind, or like, yeah, there's gotta be some kind of like, demonstration of that. Well, often, I wouldn't say always, but often there is something different that you do that illustrates that insight that you've learned. Mm-hmm. So sometimes the beginning is really obvious, I think. Certainly if there's a dramatic external event mm-hmm. you're sailing around the world. You set off on the trip. Mm-hmm. That's your beginning. Yep. but particularly when the memoir is about a more ordinary life. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, the external event is not so dramatic. Which are actually my favorite kind of memoirs, because what I really love is how they can take an ordinary life and turn it into an extraordinary story. Mm-hmm. To me, that's basically the epitome of writing. But it's really hard sometimes to figure out, well, when did that story start? Mm-hmm. And sometimes I think to a degree, there is no right answer. There are probably some wrong answers. Yeah. But at some point, as an author, you have to decide. Okay. I think. This is what I'm going to make be the start. Mm-hmm. And there's some well, there's some architecture perhaps. Mm-hmm. You know, some craft that goes into Yeah. Creating a sense of a start for the reader. Mm-hmm. and part of what the start needs to do is provide a little bit of structure so that the reader kind of knows like, what is this story like? We, you're not gonna give away the ending, you're not gonna give away the insight yet, but we have to have an idea like with Eat, pray, love. Mm-hmm. It's very, it's probably one of the reasons it's so successful. It's like, yeah. Like there's a very clear journey with a clear progression. Yep. There's a clear problem inside, there's a clear adventure outside. Yep. but every reader needs to have some sense of a, of rails or sort of like. Okay. I think this is kind of where we're heading or this is the type of journey we're going on. Yes. So one book that I think does that well is the book that we're gonna be studying in our close reading coming up, what We Carry by Maya Shabad Lang. And this book is one that Ariel recommended to me when I was asking her for recommendations on really great memoirs about ordinary lives where it's not a celebrity, there's no there's no whale following you in the ocean. Yeah. You are not scaling Everest. Yeah. Or sailing around the world or hiking the Pacific Crest Trail. Even that, which is not that unusual, but kind of was maybe at the time. Yeah. Yeah. So a two-sided question here of would you tell us a little bit about this book? we're going to avoid any spoilers. Okay. That's always hard for me. I know. I am as best you can, but you can I chronically spoil things for other people. Well, because I mean, I would guess part of it is you're so focused on the transformation Yes. And you can't talk about that without talking about the after. Right. Exactly. But she uses an, interesting technique mm-hmm. With a prologue. To give a point of reference or mm-hmm. Or a lens through which then the reader can carry on. So, yes. Yeah. Would you share a little bit about the book with us? Okay. So this book is about Maya's journey as a mom. So the, inciting incident, she is a new mom and she's really struggling, to, you know, balance work and motherhood and everything. And she asked. Her mom, like, how did you do it when I was a baby? Like, how did you survive? what did you do? And she has a complex relationship with her mom, which I think a lot of us can, you know, relate to. Maya is a new mom. She's really struggling and in the prologue, her mom tells her this, Indian, parable essentially about a mom whose son or baby, goes in the river. And she basically has to make a choice. Do I hold on to my baby? They're trying to cross a flight. Yeah, they're trying to cross, I forget the circumstances. Yeah, exactly. But. For whatever reason, the baby's in the river. And mom has to decide, am I gonna let go so that I can save myself? Like, do I let my child perish essentially, or do I hang on. And we're both gonna perish in this river. So the book starts in the prologue with setting up that story and leaving us with that question, well what, what is she gonna do? And obviously it's a metaphor for the experience that a lot of moms have in their, you know, motherhood journey of like, do I, in some ways metaphorically let go of my children, of taking care of my children so that I can take care of myself. Or do I hang on really tight and potentially we both suffer because I'm not healthy or I'm not taking care of myself in some way. and so that's the question. And that is a really universal thing that a lot of moms experience and struggle with. Um, regardless of what, cultural background you have, I, I've certainly experienced that as a mom too. So, the book starts with the expectations that she has about what it means to be a good mom in her mind at the beginning of the book, what it means to be a good mom is self-sacrifice. And she thinks that's what her mom did. She assumes she, in her mind's memory, she thinks of times when her mom sacrificed for her or told her that she sacrificed for her. I'm trying not to give away the any, but, uh, yeah, I'll just stop there. So that's the, that's like the. Set of circumstances that sets us up. Well and so I think it's so brilliant because right away in the prologue mm-hmm. Which, and all the chapters in this book are very short. Some of'em are extremely short, prologue is short. Yeah. She tells us what's going on externally, what's going in on internally, and also hits on those two things that we mentioned, the emotional state and the perspective. So she says, you know, she's really struggling emotionally with postpartum whatnot. Yeah. And she has a clearer perspective that, clearly in this story, the only right choice is for the mom to sacrifice herself to save the kid. Yeah. And her mom says, well, we don't know what happens. Yeah. And it's like finding out what happens both in that story, the parable, and in both of. Lies, as you know, two mothers creates this suspense. Yeah. Almost. Of course, very subtle, but yeah. That we know like, oh, we're gonna, we want to find this out. Yeah. And then of course we do answer being slightly unexpected But it's sort of this framing device then, because what it says on the back cover is she finds out that her mother has early onset Alzheimer's. Mm-hmm. So I was actually wondering, like, is that the inciting incident that she finds out that her mother has early onset on Alzheimer's? No. No. And you know that it's not the inciting incident if you map it out part by part, because this book has three parts and I believe it's at the end of part one. Yeah. That the reveal is made that her mom has early onset Alzheimer's. So the inciting incident has to happen. In the first really early chapter or two? Early. Yeah. Very, very early. Because that's the whole thing. Probably that sets off the problem pretty much first chapter. Yes, exactly. Like I, yeah. If you're not doing the inciting incident right away, then you're just providing useless backstory. The reader does not care about Yeah, they're not gonna care until, yeah, until there's a problem to solve. You're not gonna have a problem to solve until you have the inciting incident. So yeah, you've gotta have that very early. But it's the end of part one that her mom receives the diagnosis, or somehow it's revealed that she has early onset Alzheimer's, and in part two, mom moves in with her, which is how she discovers a lot more about the assumptions that she was making. So, I'll stop there. Yes. Without, without ruining it for you all. Yeah. I flew through it. I loved the read, like she's, I think, just very talented writer in general, but it's I think a really great study is why I'm choosing it to do this close read, because the author divides it into three parts, which is the classic three act structure that Yep. You know, you talk about in your book and I've talked about elsewhere and has these nice short chapters that can almost be analyzed as standalone essays in some ways and mm-hmm. And each one is a scene. So you can analyze'em as scenes. So I think that we can learn a lot by studying this book and just enjoy it. And of course, if you are a mom, have a mom. Yeah. Then there's a lot you can relate to getting into the universal Yeah. Side of things, like mm-hmm. Everyone has a relationship with their mom, even if it's that their mom wasn't there, so. Right. Yep. so I'm gonna have Ariel back on to finish up our memoir series and then I could talk about that ending and all the spoilers. Yes. So you could talk more about voice, but I'm wondering if you could say just a couple more sentences about that architecture. Mm-hmm. The logical progression of ideas and how to think about that in memoir, since it's not an argument the same way. Mm-hmm. A prescriptive nonfiction book would be, and I think it, it can be really challenging to figure out what to leave in and what to take out. Yes. When you literally know second by second what happened. Yes. yeah, memoir is tricky. Because you almost have to impose a structure on a story that already exists. Right? And so a lot of the time we're kind of working backwards where, like with prescriptive, I would say you start with the idea, how are you gonna defend it? What's your case for it, what examples will you include to illustrate those ideas? But with memoir, it's like, here's the story. Here's all the pieces that happened, and then how do we arrange them in such a way that you were able to convey that sense of transformation. So you do have to know like where, what is that insight? You have to know that before you start so that you know where you're ending. But then, yeah, it's, it's what is the best structure for relaying that information. And the three act structure is my favorite for beginners because it's so clear. But I think you know, the next pieces other than identifying that overall transformation, then you have to identify the smaller transformations that happen and kind of map those out first. So what I like about the three Act structure too, is that there has to be some kind of inter internal transformation in Act one. There has to be some kind of internal transformation in Act two, and there has to be an internal transformation in Act three. Now, the Act three transformation has to be positive, right? Because the book has to end positively overall, otherwise people are not, right. Wanna read it. But like the act one transformation internally is often negative. It's not a cognitive logic. In the same sense as you would think with prescriptive nonfiction, but it's more of an emotional logic. Mm-hmm. you have to impose that polarity shift. But I find it easier if you're thinking of your story in these kind of larger chunks. Like you can identify a clear milestone. Like obviously it's a very clear milestone when her mom is diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's and has to move in with her. That is like a very clear milestone in their relationship and it changes the external circumstances, but it also changes the internal circumstances for them. And then I think at the end of part two, part two is where her mom is making to some decisions about what she wants the rest of her life to look like. but, um, that's another, like the external circumstances do shift a bit. And in such a way that they really change the internal circumstances. Um, so you have to like be able to map out kind of on a bigger level, what are the key external and internal milestones on your way to that ultimate insight that you've learned. Yeah. I think what's critical there is that you have to make this transformation believable. Yes. And that means, you're here at the beginning, you're there at the end, so you have to show the reader your emotional mm-hmm. And perspective, you know? Mm-hmm. Journey. You thought this and then that thought pattern changed a little bit. And then because of that little change, it was able to change this way. Yeah. And so there's, you know, it's not just like, poof, I woke up one day and everything was different. Yeah. And then I suddenly knew this thing had changed, you know?'Cause then we don't need a book. We just need Exactly. Well, maybe nothing, but, you know. Yeah. I think, you know, going back to like fiction principles, the Hero's Journey by Joseph Campbell really does a good job of illustrating, why you need those smaller polarity shifts in a memoir. Because, the hero usually, you know, gets the call to adventure and then rejects it first. So that's like an A negative internal transformation. And then they, something usually happens, or for whatever reason, they are forced to go on the adventure anyway. And then on that adventure, they face setback after setback, after setback. So you see that in the Greek, plays. You see that in like, Greek, mythology a lot of the time. The story of, Hercules and fighting the 12, trials. so that, and that's where Joseph Campbell got the hero's journey from, was from studying Greek stories in place. And so he kind of realized after a while that there's this pattern that heroes have to go on where they reject the call and then they face setback after setback, after setback, after setback. And because we don't want to change, right? Because people resist changing. Like it's, it's not easy to change our minds. It is not easy to, you know, espouse a new set of beliefs and reject the thing that you've believed your entire life. That is really difficult. We do not want to do that. And so you have to demonstrate to the reader, that you are struggling through that. And like you said, in order for it to be believable. And I would say interestingly, that's, that is also a key difference between prescriptive nonfiction and memoir, or creative nonfiction because in prescriptive nonfiction, you know, you're designing this change for the reader and it, the transformation at the end of each chapter is always positive. So not only is it always, positive, internally for prescriptive nonfiction, it's always positive externally. And every single chapter has to be positive too, because you are layering the knowledge for the reader. So you're teaching the reader something new in every single chapter. In memoir, the suspense comes from that back and forth. Like you have to have the polarity shifts, you have to have the up and down emotionally like false victories. Yes. Oftentimes mm-hmm. the main character the author will start to believe something. Mm-hmm. Even less true. Mm-hmm. Or even more destructive. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Well, I can't wait to use some of these techniques, these perspectives, to unpack, what we carry over the next several weeks. I'm gonna read it a second time and study it this time, but, as we're wrapping up, I'd love to hear a couple other books, couple things that you've read recently. You can choose how many. Okay. You can define recently. Okay. But, um, a couple recommendations, you know, something that you've enjoyed and just tell us a little bit about why you enjoyed it. Okay. well I mentioned, I just wish I had a bigger Kitchen, I think is a really great book for moms especially. it's interesting, it kind of reminded me of like the old school blogging days in like the early 2000 tens. It was kind of a throwback, even though. It was written like, it just published in 2025. So it's, Is it like a, you said it's a memoir in essays? It's a memoir in essays. Yes. So the, that's actually, that format, um, usually delivers a much more subtle internal transformation. But I, I, I said that globally, but each essay yes. Maybe would actually have a stronger Yeah. Internal transformation. Mm-hmm. Yep. Standing alone. Yes, that is true. Absolutely. And yeah, these chapters, you know, they really could like go in any order. I think, um, like each one covers a different topic. I wish I was a better mom. I wish, I had a better husband. I wish I had a bigger kitchen. I wish I had more friends. So every chapter is, I wish something Yes. Yes. So every chapter is like something she wishes because she's comparing her life to the life she sees of others online. and so by the end of the book, you know, she's learned a lot by kind of analyzing each of these things. She views as. You know, less than in some way. Now she's analyzed them and she realizes at the end of the book, like, I have a great life. And she's kind of reaffirmed in, in her, you know, contentment as a mom, and in her life overall. So I really liked that one. I found it very relatable from my own personal, you know, phase in life. and then I also recently read in fiction, all the Colors of the Dark, which was a random airport recommendation I was browsing in an airport. I had finished the book that I had b brought Are Us all the way back to the airport book. Yes, it all comes airports. They're just, they're great. little microcosms of the bookland. Anyways, yeah, this lady next to me was like, have you read this book? And she picked up all the colors of the dark and I was like, no. And I knew that it had like won some awards and stuff and. she didn't tell me anything about it, like literally nothing. She was just like, it's so good. And I was like, well, that's good enough for me. So I bought it and read it. I think I read most of it on the plane ride home, um, and finished it in a matter of days. And it's a big book. It's like 500 something pages, I think. it's very good. It is about, a boy named Patch, who is kidnapped and held in darkness for I believe, 10 months. So he's like gone. Obviously they're searching for him and, um, he is rescued. This is not a surprise. This all happens at the very beginning. He is rescued, but he comes out of that pitch black darkness after 10 months telling his rescuers that there was a girl in there with him, but they have not seen any trace of her. They cannot find her. So the question is, was she real or was she not real? And Patch spends, Many years after that, searching for her and trying to prove that she existed. And so the book is kind of following his life, the decisions that he makes, obviously the challenges he faces as he's trying to get people to believe him and try to find her because he believes that she's still in danger and that he has to figure out if she's real and how to find her. And it has a great ending. So other than the ending, what else did you, what did you love about it? And I'm thinking, I wonder how much voice has to do with your enjoyment of one or both of those books. Mm-hmm. okay. Voice wise, for this one, I said, it reminded me of like the early days of blogging because it kind of reminded me of like an early Jen Hatmaker book or Rachel Hollis or something where, you know, she's an influencer. But like the, the voice is very like, Hey, I'm a mom just like you. And conversational. Yeah. Very conversational, very casual. Like the friend you wish you had. Yes. Very much. Like we're sitting on the couch having coffee together and she's sharing her life and really inviting you in to her life in very relatable ways. Probably self-deprecating. I was just about to say very self-deprecating. so yeah. That's, that was really fun fiction. that's a good question. Like voice wise so I did read that. Mm-hmm. I did read Close the Dark. Okay. Why I listen to it. Um, it did seem like very beautiful prose. I, I think, a little bit on the poetic side. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Gosh, it's harder to describe. I feel like the style or voice in fiction, because you're thinking more about the story elements, like pacing, is that, I think the maybe one of the things that you lied about that maybe Oh yeah. I loved the pacing. Like it was, even though it was very like how fast things, how fast you get those polarity shifts. Yes, exactly right. Yes, exactly. So the chapters are very short. So like I also felt, even though it was 500 pages, yes the chapters were very short. It moved really, really quickly. I loved that, especially'cause it's literary fiction and often literary fiction because it is more like poetic. and, you know, descriptive in some ways. Often literary fiction has a slower pace, tends to not have as much going on Yes. In the external plot Right realm. Yeah. But there's actually a lot happening externally, you know, plot wise in this book. So yeah, it was, it was very enjoyable. very enjoy, read, and then the payoff. Yes, you gotta have a good ending, especially after. 500 pages. Yes. A very good ending. Yeah. So awesome. We've got a nonfiction and a fiction recommendation. Yeah. So be sure to check those out and let us know if you've read either of them or do read either of them. Make sure you get your copy of what we carry. and tell us where readers, or tell us where listeners can find you. I'll put it in the show notes, but Yeah, I do that too. All of my listeners are readers. Yeah. And it's fine because I, I mean, you are reader Yeah. They do read. Right. So yeah. You're, you're all listeners or readers. Um, yeah, so you can connect with me on hungry Authors. That's the best way. Um, my co-author of Hungry Authors, Liz and I go live on Substack every Monday. And um, that's pretty much the best place to find us is on Substack every Monday. You can Subscribe and then you'll get the notifications, so, alright. Yeah. Well, I look forward to having you on again soon. This has been a lot of fun. Yeah. Thanks for having me. that's it for today's episode. If you found this episode helpful, be sure to follow or subscribe in your favorite podcast app. And could you do me a favor? Take an extra minute to rate and review the show. This will help others find it and will also make my day. I'll be back next Wednesday, taking you deeper into the transformative power of writing. Until then, remember, words are more than ink on a page. They are a path to wholeness.