How to Write Your Hard Story: the Alchemy of Memoir with Lisa Cooper Ellison, Trauma-Informed Writing Coach (Ep. 9)

What if the most powerful memoirs come not from telling your story—but transforming it?

In this episode, I’m joined by trauma-informed writing coach Lisa Cooper Ellison for a powerful conversation about the alchemy of memoir—the process of transforming lived experience into meaning—and why great memoirs always reveal a truth about the human condition.

Lisa shares how to uncover the deeper “aboutness” of your story, how to reveal that “aboutness” on the page, and why rushing the process often keeps writers from telling their most powerful story.

We also discuss how to write about difficult or traumatic experiences without overwhelming yourself—or your reader—including practical tools you can put to use right away. 

We dive into:

• Lisa’s concept of the essential question—and how it guides your entire book
• How to identify what actually belongs in your memoir (and what doesn’t)
• A powerful lens for choosing details, imagery, and metaphor
• How to read like a writer and learn from great memoirs
• Why giving feedback on other writers’ work can accelerate your own growth (and how to do it well)
• Common mistakes that slow writers down during drafting and revision
• How to know if you’re ready to write a particularly hard scene

Whether you’re just starting your memoir or deep in revision, this conversation will challenge you to think more deeply about your story and invite you into a writing process will produce both a better book and a changed writer.

Mentioned in this episode

• Allison K Williams’ “In a world where . . .” test 
• Jeannine Ouellette’s tool for finding Your Story's Core Aboutness”
• “What Is a Memoir’s Essential Question and Why Do You Need One?” by Lisa Cooper Ellison
• Carmen Maria Machado’s In the Dream House
• My Name Means Fire by Atash Yaghmaian
• What My Bones Know by Stephanie Foo
•  by Jeannette Walls 
• Heavy by Kiese Laymon
• How I Escaped Iran & Wrote My Way to Freedom with Atash Yaghmaian 
• MEMOIR WRITING PROGRAM — Unearthing Beauty 
• FREE WORKSHOP — Finish Your Life-Changing Memoir

Lisa's Substack and Website

___________________________________

Come join the discussion!

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And visit my website to learn more about my editing services, book coaching, and upcoming courses.

Transcript

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0:02

Welcome to the Soul and Science of Great Writing, where the mastery of craft meets the mystery of creation. I am your host, Mara Eller, freelance editor, book coach, And writing teacher with over 16 years of experience, I'm obsessed with the transformative power of words and with understanding what makes writing truly exceptional. Not just to help my clients, but to grow my own craft too. So what makes writing truly great? Is it the spark of inspiration, the unique voice, the intangible soul that breathes life into words. Or is it the careful structure, repeatable strategies, and attention to detail that turn in an idea into something readers can't put down In truth, it's both. The soul and science of great writing brings creativity and craft together, exploring the soul and the science with equal parts, awe and analysis. Today I sit down with fellow memoir enthusiast Lisa Cooper. Ellison Lisa is an author, speaker, trauma-informed writing coach and host of the Writing Your Resilience podcast, which I highly recommend. Working at the powerful intersection of storytelling and healing. She blends her writing expertise, clinical training, and soul-centered practices, to help writers turn their hardest experiences into art. We discuss how to uncover the deeper about ness Of your story, how to approach traumatic material with care, and how especially by doing both of those things, writing can become a process of profound transformation. Lisa is just a wealth of wisdom on these topics. So you are in for a real treat.

audioMaraEller11132690807 1:37

welcome to the Soul and Science of Great Writing, Lisa.

video1132690807 1:40

thank you so much for having me, Mara. It is an honor to be here with you today.

audioMaraEller11132690807 1:44

I am so excited to have you here because your podcast writing your resilience and your articles on Jade Friedman's blog, which I think is where I discovered you, are just incredible and they're packed with so much actionable, clear insights into how to write memoir that you're sort of one of the stars of memoir teaching that, that I think of. So it's really an honor. All right, so I've already shared your official introduction, but is there anything that you would like listeners to know about you or your work as we begin this conversation?

video1132690807 2:19

Yeah, that's a great question. So I see myself as

Lisa Cooper Ellison 2:22

a story

video1132690807 2:24

I mean by that is that part of what I do when I am working with people is I help them transform their stories into something new. So when you're working on a memoir or anything else, the goal isn't to just record what happened and have that be what you send out into the world, or even to write just beautiful art. I mean, that is totally fine. And there are some people where that's just what they want. I

Lisa Cooper Ellison 2:48

want you to change in some way

video1132690807 2:50

a result of doing

Lisa Cooper Ellison 2:51

this work.

video1132690807 2:52

So that is my main goal. And if I were

Lisa Cooper Ellison 2:54

to say anything

video1132690807 2:56

to your listeners, I would say, I ask yourself how you wanna be changed and how you want

Lisa Cooper Ellison 3:01

to transform as

video1132690807 3:02

result of any story that you're

audioMaraEller11132690807 3:05

I love that. All of that so much. I love that word alchemy. I've used that word a few times on this podcast already, where we're talking about the power of writing to transform the writer and then hopefully also the reader. And I think you also identify yourself as a writer, which I think adds something special to your perspective. I also identify as a writer, as well as an editor and a coach. And I wonder I mean, would you agree? Do you think that adds something a little bit different? How does that impact your work as an editor and a coach?

Lisa Cooper Ellison 3:42

Yeah, I

video1132690807 3:42

it makes a big difference because when I'm working with people, I see myself as in the trenches alongside And yeah, I've been studying this for a while. Yes, I have a lot of practice, but I can face the same problems that anyone

Lisa Cooper Ellison 3:58

else has.

video1132690807 3:59

So I know that's one of the things we're gonna talk about today. And there are so many times where

Lisa Cooper Ellison 4:04

people will ask like,

video1132690807 4:05

the most common problem? Or what's the biggest struggle? And I'll share something, but I'm also either inside or even out loud going like, me too. I know. And you know, I think that's something that my clients really like because I don't see myself

Lisa Cooper Ellison 4:21

as. Uh,

video1132690807 4:22

you know, better than them or over them or having an authority over their work. I see the problems that they have is something that is just part of the human condition and part of the creative process. So.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 4:35

yeah. I

video1132690807 4:36

talk to people all the time about like,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 4:38

yeah, let's just pause and

video1132690807 4:39

with the fact that this pattern keeps happening. Whether you just started or you've been working at this for a long time.

audioMaraEller11132690807 4:47

I guess it probably gives us a little more empathy. Not that you couldn't have

video1132690807 4:51

Oh, most definitely.

audioMaraEller11132690807 4:52

without also being a writer, but yeah, there's definitely something about, oh yeah, I know what it feels like when you get this kind of feedback

video1132690807 5:00

Mm-hmm. Or when you're trying

audioMaraEller11132690807 5:01

write through this kind of thing, or it's just not working the way that you thought it was gonna work. Yeah.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 5:07

Very much so.

audioMaraEller11132690807 5:08

so. a question I love to ask given the title of the podcast is, Do you see yourself leaning more toward the soul side of writing or more toward the science side?

video1132690807 5:19

I love this question. And by the way, I also love the title of your podcast. Oh, thanks. Because I see myself as somewhere

Lisa Cooper Ellison 5:27

in the middle.

video1132690807 5:28

I really feel like it's important to study the psychology of writing, the psychology of creativity, how our brain works, because some people that we work with, that's the modality they want to focus on, or that's the, the orientation that they have, whereas other people are really into

Lisa Cooper Ellison 5:48

the mystery.

video1132690807 5:49

Right. And for me personally, I see what we do as something that leans into the mystery because we create from

Lisa Cooper Ellison 5:58

nothing.

video1132690807 5:59

And that is pretty magical. And if we don't respect the fact that that is what we do, we're not really leaning into the pieces of the writing process that can be the richest and the most powerful for

audioMaraEller11132690807 6:14

Beautiful answer. I guess one of the things I heard you say there is that you adjust your approach depending on which side your client seems to fall on, and that some people are sort of predisposed to approach writing more from one side or the other, and so you try to mirror that in your work with them. Would that be accurate?

video1132690807 6:36

Yeah, I think that's very accurate. and I think that's something that I learned in my background as a counselor is that part of what you're doing is you're joining with your client and you're joining from their

Lisa Cooper Ellison 6:49

orientation, So progress is made

video1132690807 6:52

you can really see through your client's eyes and respect the perspective that they bring to the table. Now, I will say, because I talk about all kinds of things, spiritual and soul oriented, that there are probably a number of people that I am not for, and that is completely fine. But

Lisa Cooper Ellison 7:13

there are

video1132690807 7:13

people, you know, I do see, we'll call it the woo spectrum. I think that's a good way, yeah. I'm gonna call it the woo spectrum that some people are, you know, on the end of like, I'm more comfortable with what

Lisa Cooper Ellison 7:24

I can see with the practical strategies, know, with the nuts

video1132690807 7:29

bolts of the writing process. And I, I would like our conversations to stay there and

Lisa Cooper Ellison 7:33

there are other people who are on a very different end of the spectrum

video1132690807 7:37

And so

Lisa Cooper Ellison 7:38

I think to work

video1132690807 7:39

me, you have to have a little bit of woo, you know, it's kind of like the salt and pepper in the stew, right? You may not see it, but is there, um, and because I'm gonna talk about these things when I'm working with someone, but I may not say like, you know, you seem really stuck in the energy of your story. Would you like to work with the Akashic records? I may not say that to that person. I may

Lisa Cooper Ellison 8:01

say,

video1132690807 8:02

let's work on some outlining, or let's do some journaling or some other kind of exercise that feels strongly in the orientation of like being a writing coach

Lisa Cooper Ellison 8:12

when I'm working with

audioMaraEller11132690807 8:13

I, because they're not gonna be receptive to something that they're

video1132690807 8:17

not Yeah,

audioMaraEller11132690807 8:18

comfortable with. So it's not actually gonna be very helpful. But at the same time, I'm guessing that you would agree with my perspective, that both are necessary in some form. Even just what you said earlier about you know, writing being a transformational process for the writer as perhaps the most important goal. does an example come to mind of a time when you've realized that perhaps a client, was maybe resisting one side or the other, sort of the science side or the soul side, and that that was actually holding them back and you needed to gently invite them to embrace that other side of the coin?

Lisa Cooper Ellison 9:01

Yeah,

video1132690807 9:01

so such a good question, and I think I can come up with a number of different examples. I'm gonna talk about types of clients that you might have or types of writers you may run into versus one specific writer. one writer that I have encountered is the writer who just wants to get

Lisa Cooper Ellison 9:21

it done,

video1132690807 9:22

and they're like, no, just show me how to write clear sentences And, you know, well, how do I efficiently write a scene? Or how do I structure this book? Right? I get asked that all the time, how do I structure this book so I can hurry up and get it done and then get

Lisa Cooper Ellison 9:36

it to a publisher and put it in, get it

video1132690807 9:39

in my hands, and then when I start reading their work. I'll notice that the story's not there. maybe the plot, the what happened is very clearly rendered, but how it all goes together, what that story is, what it says about the human condition

Lisa Cooper Ellison 9:55

is missing. And that's because they haven't stepped back to say, how am I like other

video1132690807 10:01

Or, how is my story speaking to all of the stories out there that are similar? what is it that I really wanna say? What am I here to do? And how does this book or this project move that forward in some way? And

Lisa Cooper Ellison 10:15

I have confronted writers like that. I think

video1132690807 10:18

sometimes there's a, a scarcity mentality of like, I've gotta hurry up and get it done, and I've gotta strike while the iron is hot and I have to, you know, hurry up. And when we hurry up, there's so much that we miss in the process. And so, yeah, that is one side. I think the other side of a coin is the writer who will feel really strongly like, I'm here to help others.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 10:42

My

video1132690807 10:42

book is gonna make a

Lisa Cooper Ellison 10:43

a difference.

video1132690807 10:45

And sometimes they have that, well, I wanna hurry up and get it out there aspect too. But they're focused so much on the mission and on how it's gonna help others. They forget about two things. One, how are you serving yourself and how does this process

Lisa Cooper Ellison 10:58

serve yourself?

video1132690807 11:00

And

Lisa Cooper Ellison 11:00

sometimes

video1132690807 11:01

they're so focused on the mission that they forget that, well, writing has rules and you have to learn the rules. And I'm very clear with people, like,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 11:09

we don't learn

video1132690807 11:10

rules so that we can just always

Lisa Cooper Ellison 11:13

follow them. We learn them so that

video1132690807 11:15

can break

Lisa Cooper Ellison 11:16

them

video1132690807 11:16

skillfully.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 11:17

And so

video1132690807 11:17

you have to learn that so that you can write a good story. and I do see that some people that

Lisa Cooper Ellison 11:23

are. I think so mission driven to

video1132690807 11:25

point where they have those blinders on. They forget that you have to learn those skills. You have to learn

Lisa Cooper Ellison 11:32

how

video1132690807 11:32

tell a

Lisa Cooper Ellison 11:32

story. And

video1132690807 11:34

sometimes people will get really down on themselves about that. Like, well, I've been writing my whole life. Uh, I've been writing emails and I, I've been in a

Lisa Cooper Ellison 11:42

book group.

video1132690807 11:43

you know, I know, I know about stories. I love stories. I've been reading them all the time. Well, you've been driving in a car too, your whole life or riding in a car, but that's very different than being a

Lisa Cooper Ellison 11:53

a mechanic.

audioMaraEller11132690807 11:54

Exactly. Yeah. The other metaphor that I know, you mentioned on one of your podcast episodes recently was the analogy of building a house

video1132690807 12:04

Mm-hmm.

audioMaraEller11132690807 12:05

and that you can be very creative, you can decorate it all different kinds of ways, you know, and those are the things that people are gonna notice for the most part, unless you don't have the basic structure and infrastructure, you know, if you don't, if you're missing a wall or there's no door, or there's no stairs I love that metaphor of architecture, which is something I talked about with Ariel Curry on her episode that she used the word architecture, which I love for that internal structure

video1132690807 12:32

Mm-hmm.

audioMaraEller11132690807 12:32

that needs to be within a story or any piece of writing that done well becomes invisible, at least to someone who's not looking for it, but done poorly is going to, keep all that other stuff from reaching the reader in an effective way. So really, the craft has to be part of your For that mission oriented writer that you were talking about. So I wonder what else you would identify as the essential or most important qualities of a great memoir.

video1132690807 13:01

Yeah. So I'm gonna offer a

Lisa Cooper Ellison 13:02

a disclaimer.

video1132690807 13:03

So listeners, if you hear this and you're like, I don't know, maybe I agree, maybe I don't. That is okay because my answer is subjective. Yes. And it's

Lisa Cooper Ellison 13:14

based on

video1132690807 13:15

both my experience as a writing coach, but also as a reader, right? Because as readers we have

Lisa Cooper Ellison 13:20

preferences. for me personally, I think that

video1132690807 13:24

the book has to be about more than your story. So if it's just about what happened to you, I might be mildly curious, especially if it's something that's of interest to me or way outside of my experience, right? Those insider stories. but I think it has to speak to something related to the human condition. If it doesn't do that, I'm not sure it's rising to the occasion of a great memoir.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 13:49

Also, the writing needs to be great.

video1132690807 13:52

Um, and I say that at the sentence level, and I worked with Mitchell Jackson last summer at the Kenyon Review Writers Conference,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 14:00

and he

video1132690807 14:00

talking about how, you know, writers who have strong writing skills at

Lisa Cooper Ellison 14:05

the

video1132690807 14:06

level have an advantage.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 14:08

So I would say learn those People who are great at Metaphor as an

video1132690807 14:14

and know how to use metaphor to,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 14:16

uh, express the

video1132690807 14:18

unex expressible or connect us to emotions that are difficult to wrap our minds around. Those things can make a great memoir. Um, also,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 14:27

I think, and this is

video1132690807 14:28

delicate piece when we talk about that architecture, and by the way.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 14:32

I love Ariel Curry, so

video1132690807 14:33

so glad she was on your podcast. She's great. And Hungry Authors is also a great podcast,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 14:38

um, and a great book. is that I would say that,

video1132690807 14:42

um, the architecture needs to be sound and I can't

Lisa Cooper Ellison 14:47

see the A

video1132690807 14:48

book does that so well that I forget, I'm reading a book and instead I am immersed in the story. I am one with that story. And so those I think are some of the key ingredients for me. And then of course, the big question is, well, how do you do that?

audioMaraEller11132690807 15:05

right. So how do you move from the concepts to actually putting in practice, which we'll talk a little bit more about. So you said it needs to have an about ness that

video1132690807 15:15

is mm-hmm.

audioMaraEller11132690807 15:16

larger than the individual story, so that's one that would be great to talk more about. that's, I think a little tricky because it's like, well, a memoir is about me, so what are you talking about? But then once you even understand that, that it's illustrated by your story, but it's about something universal or it needs to be to really touch the reader. But then how do you do that? Let's say the writer takes a step to figure out, okay, the plot of my story is this, but it's truly about this insight into the human condition. How does that translate onto the page? What do they need to do to get it? To a place where the reader can actually see that and feel that.

video1132690807 15:57

Yeah. Well, first it takes time,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 16:00

right?

video1132690807 16:01

It takes time because it's, it's no small feat to do that. And,

audioMaraEller11132690807 16:06

And It's also not saying, reader, here's what this all means.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 16:10

Yeah,

video1132690807 16:10

I,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 16:10

I think that's what I will say to

video1132690807 16:12

in a joking, but also not joking way. You don't wanna be

Lisa Cooper Ellison 16:15

like, break breaker one

video1132690807 16:17

reader over here. This is the main point of what I'm trying to do. Right. because again, then I'm seeing the architecture, right. And then it's not a

Lisa Cooper Ellison 16:24

a great story.

video1132690807 16:25

so I don't want you to point it out. I wanna feel it, I wanna intuit it.

audioMaraEller11132690807 16:29

The magician never reveals his tricks.

video1132690807 16:31

Yeah, exactly. So there are a few different ways that you can think about this. Marian Roach Smith. Has a great X, y, Z formula. It's about this as illustrated by your life story, as told in, in this case, we'll say memoir. so it's about this as an argument. So what argument are you making about the human

Lisa Cooper Ellison 16:52

condition?

video1132690807 16:53

You know, and when we think about human conditions, we wanna pull back and say, well, what does outward mean? We're talking about how do we love, how do we grieve, how do we connect with other people? How do we endure what feels impossible to endure? Right? So, you know, I think that's one of the first things you can do is pull back and say, well, what are the aspects of the human condition? Like, just start there. Um, and that might be the topic that your book is about in some aspect of the human condition.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 17:22

and. some people, that's

video1132690807 17:23

be very clear. Like if you're writing a grief memoir, okay, topic is grief, human condition, you're dealing with this. How do we grieve and possibly how do we stay

Lisa Cooper Ellison 17:31

connected

video1132690807 17:32

when connections are

Lisa Cooper Ellison 17:34

broken? So understand what those human

video1132690807 17:36

are

Lisa Cooper Ellison 17:37

and then begin to say, well, what are you are or saying

video1132690807 17:41

about this aspect of the human

Lisa Cooper Ellison 17:42

condition? Um,

video1132690807 17:44

you can use that x, y, Z formula. I think that's great. Alison k Williams will talk about it as in a world where one woman has to dah, dah, dah, dah.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 17:52

dah. So that

video1132690807 17:53

be a way to do it. Uh, Janine Ette has a great formula on her substack. she has a specific Substack article on about this. And, uh, Mara, if you want me to give you the link, I can give that to

audioMaraEller11132690807 18:05

Yeah, I put that in the, yeah.

video1132690807 18:06

Yeah. Um, 'cause that's a nice formula. The way I talk about it is in terms of your essential question, right? So what is the question that you are answering?

Lisa Cooper Ellison 18:15

Because I think when you think about it in question, Most writers,

video1132690807 18:20

they're first working on a book, they think about the things that happened to them, right? This happened and then this happened, and then this happened. which is fine. And that is usually what we need to do in a first draft. It's what I often do in my own first drafts, even though I've been studying this for a long time. But then we have to say, okay, well. What is the question that it's answering or what is, what are you arguing? And what I like about question is that when you think in that way, you begin to say, what aspects of my life help answer my question? Um, that's related to whatever that aspect of the human condition is that I'm talking

audioMaraEller11132690807 18:58

Yes. I love your essential question. Concept. And that article you recently put up on Jane Friedman's blog, which I linked to in a previous episode, but I can link to it again here. I talk about it in my program as a guiding question because it guides you as you are trying to write this. And then it will guide the reader as they're moving through your story. And then every chapter, every scene should be filtered through that lens of how does this help answer the question. And if it doesn't, then it's probably not relevant to this book. Or you need to reassess your question and then do the process again. So I think that's one of the answers that I'm hearing you give, is that once you know what the about is, or at least what the question is that you're trying to answer, and the answer becomes your about ness. then it becomes a process of, sort of culling, you know, that what you put in and what you leave out is going to help focus the story on that universal theme. And so being intentional about what stays in and what is not relevant is gonna help bring out that, about ness on the page And then I, I, something I've noticed is it can also come through a lot of really specific details. So once you know, oh, this is a story about. Belonging and what it means to belong when you're adopted something. Then every time you know, you're deciding on a metaphor or even an adjective, you know, the way that you describe the light coming through the clouds or something, you know, you can describe it in ways that subtly emphasize that theme. Is that something that you've seen or Is there anything else that you would add to how writers can highlight and about ness on the page?

video1132690807 20:48

Yeah. I actually love what you

Lisa Cooper Ellison 20:50

just

video1132690807 20:50

said and what it made me think of as an exercise that I will give to people, which is to think about your story as a window. and this is actually the exercise I'll give to people is I'll say, I want you to look out your window

Lisa Cooper Ellison 21:03

and I'll start first with emotions, right?

video1132690807 21:06

I want you to look out your window and imagine

Lisa Cooper Ellison 21:08

that this is the best day

video1132690807 21:09

of your life, right? What you see outside your window. Now do the same exercise, and instead think of the worst day of your

Lisa Cooper Ellison 21:18

life.

video1132690807 21:18

Then look and see what you see out the window, right? You'll notice you see different things based on your emotions, and that's level one of beginning to say, well, how do you frame the about ness of your story? Right? Is first you, you think about those emotional tenors. Now you can begin to say, if

Lisa Cooper Ellison 21:35

I were to think

video1132690807 21:37

about belonging and look outside my window,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 21:40

what

video1132690807 21:41

details are gonna stick out to me? I might be thinking in that case more about the people than about the houses. Or if I am looking out my window right

Lisa Cooper Ellison 21:48

now and I can

video1132690807 21:50

see the mountains 'cause I live near the Blue Ridge Mountains, so I'm seeing the mountains. But if I'm thinking about belonging, what matters most to me are the houses that I see in the distance. And I might be thinking about from a, the lens of belonging,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 22:05

how far

video1132690807 22:05

away they are, especially if I'm not feeling like I belong. And that may become a metaphor that I use or a detail that becomes relevant to the story that I'm working on. So I think that's just a way that you can begin to develop this. And what I hope that you hear listeners is that there's a lot of play involved. You know, the more you can play and experiment and stop worrying about getting it right, but trying things that, that is usually what leads to

Lisa Cooper Ellison 22:34

your best

audioMaraEller11132690807 22:35

Hmm. I love that so much. And it reminds me, I was thinking when you were talking about your essential question concept is something that I love about framing it as a question, as using a question rather than the answer as a way into the process of writing the book is that it, it evokes curiosity. And curiosity is such a powerful tool to combat, you know, fear and self doubt, and to you give us that posture of discovery and help us to just have fun. Because especially if we're writing about a hard topic, it can be heavy work and. most writers I know we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to, we want it to be really good and but like letting it be a process of play and experimentation can be such a powerful tool. so I imagine that could be a useful tool when you're writing about traumatic experiences. I'd love to take a moment to talk a little bit more because I know that you're a trauma-informed writing coach and so many of us are writing about hard things, so I'd love to benefit from your expertise there a little bit more. what are some of the most effective tools that you recommend writers use to help themselves write about traumatic memories without retraumatizing themselves?

video1132690807 23:55

Yeah, such a great question. It's one of the biggest things I do, and I'm just gonna offer my very quick spiel of what does it mean to be a trauma-informed writing coach. What it means is that I understand how trauma works and also how the nervous system works. And a lot of what I do is helping people reregulate their nervous systems as they are going through the creative process, whether they're dealing with

Lisa Cooper Ellison 24:17

trauma or not.

video1132690807 24:18

Because in order to be able to be creative, you need to have space to do that. And, and that often involves having your amygdala, you know, feeling free from fear, right? So if you are in

Lisa Cooper Ellison 24:30

fight or flight,

video1132690807 24:32

um, which happens to many of us, and I would say that. Pretty much the whole world is in fight or flight right now. there are a lot of things going on in the world and we could go down a whole rabbit hole of

Lisa Cooper Ellison 24:41

what

video1132690807 24:41

things are and how we might feel about them. But what I would say is like we have all the things happening in the world that can trigger us and then just the fact that we get so much information thrown at us all the time. Those things are activating to anyone, whether you're a trauma survivor or not. So when you are overwhelmed, right, when there is a too muchness to your experience, your amygdala can fire really hot, and when it's firing hot, it's looking for danger. And when it's looking for danger, it can't make those free

Lisa Cooper Ellison 25:16

associations

video1132690807 25:17

that are needed for the creative process.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 25:19

So what, skills or what things can we do

video1132690807 25:23

to calm the amygdala down so that

Lisa Cooper Ellison 25:26

there is both, uh, physical energy for the creative

video1132690807 25:30

but also the mental energy that's needed? So, I say that as a segue to say the first skill is to take

Lisa Cooper Ellison 25:36

care of

video1132690807 25:37

being creative and working creatively with difficult topics. Expends energy, well, where is that energy gonna come from? It can either come from you building up a store of energy that you can use for your creative process, or it can come from some other part of your life. You gotta decide if that's okay with for you or

Lisa Cooper Ellison 25:55

not. simple things like

video1132690807 25:57

eating food that is healthy

Lisa Cooper Ellison 25:59

for eating slowly and mindfully. something I am

video1132690807 26:03

practicing 'cause I don't always do it well. so there's that piece. Then sleeping right, making sure that you're getting enough sleep at night is important and dealing with

Lisa Cooper Ellison 26:13

your mental health in ways that

video1132690807 26:15

involve

Lisa Cooper Ellison 26:16

just checking in with

video1132690807 26:17

the emotions you're having on a regular basis and mo working through them. Right? So practicing those skills. Is the setup for doing that creative work? Because then when we get into our creative process, I think one of the most important things, and it's the most foundational thing I've taught for people for years, and my gosh, I'm trying to think of like, it's probably been 12 years I've been teaching this one skill Wow. Is to rate your work, right? On a scale of one to 10, where one is, it's like a flag going by, it doesn't matter to you, and 10 is, this is the worst thing that has ever happened

Lisa Cooper Ellison 26:52

to And it's not always about like

video1132690807 26:55

the topic itself. It's about how do you feel about this topic? Because some people, will write about things that everyone else categorically feels are awful and they're like. You know, I've worked through this and it's not a big deal for me anymore. and, and that anymore

Lisa Cooper Ellison 27:09

is

video1132690807 27:10

because that means you've worked through it in

Lisa Cooper Ellison 27:12

therapy. so you wanna rate that.

video1132690807 27:14

And I always tell people anything that's, uh, eight or above that has not been in therapy,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 27:19

belongs in therapy first because your

video1132690807 27:21

processing of this work should happen with someone who can attend to your needs. And I say that 'cause for most people, when they've experienced trauma, they experienced it alone or they felt like no one saw their experience. Right? One of two things has happened. So having someone there for you is really important. so you wanna get that number. And then on any given day when you are doing your writing scale, your energy level, right? On a one to 10, like how much energy do I have

Lisa Cooper Ellison 27:51

for my creative process?

video1132690807 27:53

where 10 is like,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 27:54

I have so

video1132690807 27:54

energy, I could do anything. The number for your creative energy should always be higher than the intensity of the work that you're gonna do. Hmm. That's how you know you have that energy in your Creative bank account

Lisa Cooper Ellison 28:07

to be able to expend it. So those are some

video1132690807 28:10

that I tell people. And then another thing that I'll say is like, okay, if you know that you are working on something, let's say it's a six or a seven or an eight, and listeners, I know if you are a

Lisa Cooper Ellison 28:20

trauma

video1132690807 28:20

survivor and a 10 is calling to you, you're gonna write about it. 'cause I've been doing this long enough to know we all do it. And that's okay. What you want to understand is that when we are writing, we are reliving in a certain way because the brain cannot tell the difference between, reality and imagination. So your nervous system is

Lisa Cooper Ellison 28:41

firing in that same way. stress hormones are going to be

video1132690807 28:46

in those same ways, maybe not to the level of intensity that they would when

Lisa Cooper Ellison 28:50

it actually happened, but

video1132690807 28:52

a certain extent.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 28:53

So

video1132690807 28:53

I will tell people that since that is the case, when you are going to write about something like this, go into the dark with a flashlight. That flashlight is often an understanding of the point you're trying to make.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 29:06

Because what can happen

video1132690807 29:08

in that reliving process is, and this can relate to what we call a trauma dump, right? So what is a trauma dump? It is when, every gory detail of the thing that happened is on the page. Um, it is, feels too much in the body when you're writing it,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 29:24

but you

video1132690807 29:25

stop writing it. Um, and it often feels too much, uh, for the reader. And so an example I will offer, and I'm not gonna get graphic here, but I'm just gonna use it as, sexual assault. the, the graphic details of what happened can be too much for, for the person and also for the reader.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 29:42

What also happens is that, the writing is about victimization,

video1132690807 29:46

um, and powerlessness, right? This is what happened to me. Things are acted upon you, whether

audioMaraEller11132690807 29:52

what made it, that's what makes it feel so traumatic, is that lack of agency in the first

video1132690807 29:57

place. Exactly. Yeah.

audioMaraEller11132690807 29:59

So it makes sense that would come out, especially in an early draft, potentially,

video1132690807 30:03

potentially. Mm-hmm.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 30:03

Absolutely. And so

video1132690807 30:05

I would say to anyone is if you had an experience where you felt victimized, you were

Lisa Cooper Ellison 30:10

victimized

video1132690807 30:11

100%. And you can respect that and honor that and hold that part of you that was

Lisa Cooper Ellison 30:18

victimized.

video1132690807 30:19

That is important, sacred work that we need to do for ourselves. And then the hard part is if you're choosing to turn this into a story, what readers actually care about

Lisa Cooper Ellison 30:31

is how you

video1132690807 30:32

and how you survived. So when you're looking at taking that flashlight into the dark of whatever the experience is, that's what you wanna shine the light on. The details don't matter

Lisa Cooper Ellison 30:44

as much. Do you

video1132690807 30:45

to have details so we understand what happened? Yes, we need to know enough so we understand the what and also the

Lisa Cooper Ellison 30:52

stakes. But

video1132690807 30:53

what matters more is how did you mentally get through that? What decisions did you make in an experience where you were victimized in order to get out of it? Because if you're here writing about your story, you got

Lisa Cooper Ellison 31:06

out of it.

video1132690807 31:07

So I will tell people

Lisa Cooper Ellison 31:09

to

video1132690807 31:09

that. And then, once you understand those things, that will help you get clear on what are the details. That are needed to bring this story

Lisa Cooper Ellison 31:18

to life

video1132690807 31:19

in a way that illustrates the point that you're trying to

Lisa Cooper Ellison 31:23

make, which is often,

video1132690807 31:24

this is how I survived.

audioMaraEller11132690807 31:26

which ties back to that essential question, which wouldn't be. What happened to me, but would be something more like, how does one survive this type of thing. so going back to that curiosity, but also maybe part of what I'm hearing you say is that it could be a good idea to wait until you have some form of answer, at least the start of an answer to your essential question perhaps before you try to write through the hardest part of that story, because that's what your flashlight is, in your analogy. it's not just let me go in the dark and see if I can find a light. It's let me find a light and then bring it with me to go back through that experience in a way that can transform the experience for the reader and for the writer.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 32:14

Yeah,

video1132690807 32:15

absolutely. Mm-hmm.

audioMaraEller11132690807 32:17

So I guess you would maybe recommend writing about perhaps scenes moments that were part of the larger story first to try to help you find some of that answer to how I survived and what did I do. That agency, which is so essential for any kind of memoir, whether there's a

video1132690807 32:35

traumatic

audioMaraEller11132690807 32:36

scene or not, is it's not about what happened, it's about how you responded and how you changed as a result. Is there anything else you would say say to a writer maybe who's working on a project that is going to involve some really difficult scenes that they need to write through in some way? How do they know? They're ready. Is it just going back to those, the number system that you had, or how much of an answer do they need to have in order to feel like, okay, I have my flashlight?

video1132690807 33:04

Yeah. So what I would say is that

Lisa Cooper Ellison 33:08

the,

video1132690807 33:08

thing that you want to really pay attention is, uh, Don Lansky is the person who gave this to me. I

Lisa Cooper Ellison 33:15

always like to offer attribution when

video1132690807 33:17

can. And he was a minister at Unity of Charlottesville, and he offered this sermon where he talked about you can only go as fast as the most fearful part of you can go. And I use that as.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 33:31

A litmus

video1132690807 33:32

So have you checked in with that fearful part of you? Because what can sometimes happen, um, and this is where the ego gets involved, and look, if your ego's involved, there is no judgment here. My ego gets involved. It's just part of the

Lisa Cooper Ellison 33:46

process.

video1132690807 33:47

We can get fixated on getting things done. And so like, oh man, there's this one scene and I know I've gotta write it, so I'm gonna go write it. But there's this little part of

Lisa Cooper Ellison 33:58

you that's like, no, no, no, I don't want to, and I'm not ready.

video1132690807 34:02

You know, when you're hearing that and, and you're feeling that in your body because you'll, you'll start to go to it and then maybe you'll have writer's block or your mind will go blank, or then you wanna go do something else. Those are all signals that you're not ready to do the work. But a lot of writers will be be like, Nope, that. That's gotta be done. Let's sit down and do it.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 34:23

And what happens is that this

video1132690807 34:25

how you retraumatize yourself, is that, for most people when it comes to traumatic events, whatever they are, there's an element of force and a lack of choices. Mm-hmm. And so when you are forcing yourself to write something, when that's part of you is saying, no, you're actually doing what was done to you. Right? That's how we become re-traumatized by the work. And so I would say, respect that process. It may mean you need to go slower. That may require a lot of patience. It may mean you work on something for a while and then you go work on something else. and then you come back to it. Because

Lisa Cooper Ellison 35:04

this is something that's really important. I believe

video1132690807 35:07

in the healing power of writing. I do believe that happens. the healing happens when we make new meaning of our experiences and we connect with our agency and we redevelop our

Lisa Cooper Ellison 35:18

sovereignty, right? Our sovereignty over

video1132690807 35:20

our ourself, and our understanding of our experience. However, there are plenty of times and there has been research that has been done that shows that just writing about traumatic events does not lead to healing.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 35:34

You

video1132690807 35:34

write wonderful, amazing, incredible

Lisa Cooper Ellison 35:38

work.

video1132690807 35:39

not

Lisa Cooper Ellison 35:39

heal from it. And I would

video1132690807 35:41

that Lily Danziger would argue that that's not the point anyway. Right? We don't write memoir to heal, we write to create art and to focus so much on the healing from her perspective. and I respect her perspective, and if you wanna learn more about that, I have a whole episode on it, is that, um, she has a very feminist view of, of this process and that, you know, we don't talk about men healing, right? That's not, and so when you're just talking about the healing process with writing, it can be a way of

Lisa Cooper Ellison 36:09

diminishing the work that's done.

video1132690807 36:10

That's the perspective that she brings. But to bring it back here, I do believe in that if you can make new meaning, but I have a very powerful example, and I am not in this person's mind, so I'm not speaking for them. I'm just gonna say what I observed at a writing conference and what was said at a writing

Lisa Cooper Ellison 36:28

conference.

video1132690807 36:29

So Carmen Maria Machado wrote in The

Lisa Cooper Ellison 36:33

Dream House, is an amazing book. It is, a beautiful, example of art,

video1132690807 36:40

right? And when she described the things that she did to write this book, holy cow, my brain was just spinning because she did so much with this. However, this was something she said towards the end that

Lisa Cooper Ellison 36:55

floored me. said,

video1132690807 36:57

this is the work that I'm probably gonna be most known for. And I hate this book because every time I read it out loud, I am reconnecting with the most painful part of my life. what does that mean for her? I can't speak to that. 'cause I'm not her. What do I hear? Like what, what's coming through my filter or my window? Is that possibly. Every time she reads this book, a part of her is because she is reliving that experience. And I share that listeners, just as an example, to pay attention to, That if you are feeling like, oh, if my book is just out in the world, I'm gonna feel better. I'm gonna have some sort of epiphany or experience that is gonna change my life maybe, and maybe it will for the good, but maybe not. It's one of the main reasons why it's

Lisa Cooper Ellison 37:52

so important to

video1132690807 37:53

this process.

audioMaraEller11132690807 37:54

Wow. That's a powerful example. I mean, one of the things that was coming up for me as you shared that was not related to the trauma part, but just that false idea that we get, that there's gonna be an arrival. That, oh, well, when we publish it or when we get this kind of feedback, or when we can appear on this show or get this many reviews, you know, even New York Times bestseller, right? Like, I've learned enough finally to know that that's never going to feel the way we think it's going to feel.

video1132690807 38:24

Yeah.

audioMaraEller11132690807 38:25

And like you said, you know, don't wanna speak for this person who has done an amazing thing by finishing this book and sharing this book anyway. But what comes up for me is it sounds like, it just sounds so unkind to herself. You know, like if that were me, it sounds like I would've had to be very unkind to myself to get there. how much more beautiful and wonderful would it be if she could have written, or if one could write something equally powerful for others and have it also be transformative in a positive way for the self. you know?

Lisa Cooper Ellison 39:00

Mm-hmm.

audioMaraEller11132690807 39:01

you can read it and feel empowered every time you read it. I mean, I imagine that it's at least quite possible that the book could be even more powerful if that healing process had been part of its making.

video1132690807 39:15

Yeah, and I can't speak to what she did or did

Lisa Cooper Ellison 39:19

not do

video1132690807 39:19

in that process. And I have great respect for Carmen, and I'm just gonna say like, I cannot emulate the things that she did. I'm not even gonna try, because she is absolutely brilliant and the work she created is truly a

Lisa Cooper Ellison 39:34

masterpiece.

video1132690807 39:35

But yeah, what I will tell, writers is, you know, one, how do you wanna feel when this comes out? And then what are you doing now to feel that anyway? Right? So if you wanna feel worthy, awesome. I want everyone to feel worthy. How can you feel worthy

Lisa Cooper Ellison 39:52

today

video1132690807 39:53

whether this book comes out or not? Because if you feel that feeling

Lisa Cooper Ellison 39:59

that you are hoping

video1132690807 40:00

now and

Lisa Cooper Ellison 40:01

you are working towards that, just I'm worthy

video1132690807 40:03

100%. When your book comes out, yeah, it's gonna feel like a victory. It's not gonna, that victory feeling is not gonna last for as

Lisa Cooper Ellison 40:11

long as you like.

video1132690807 40:12

it just

Lisa Cooper Ellison 40:13

doesn't. it's gonna be the

video1132690807 40:14

icing

Lisa Cooper Ellison 40:15

on the cake.

video1132690807 40:15

It's gonna feel like, yeah, that is what I wanted and I feel good no matter what. And I think that's really important because I think it's very easy for people to unconsciously feel like, oh, if I do this, I'm gonna feel worthy. And, um, the reality is, is that readers don't owe you anything

Lisa Cooper Ellison 40:33

and they are not gonna make you You either feel worthy or

video1132690807 40:36

you don't. And

Lisa Cooper Ellison 40:38

if you

video1132690807 40:38

do feel worthy and you get negative feedback, which I don't want anyone to have negative feedback, But it's a reality that we will, you know, if you write something and you put it out there, somebody's gonna say something That worthiness that you have cultivated no matter what is gonna serve as a shield. Um, and it's gonna be pro a protective factor for you. That allows that to not penetrate so deeply.

audioMaraEller11132690807 41:02

absolutely. Okay. So there are so many wonderful memoirs out there that readers could pick up to try to learn, you know, what does a masterpiece look like? What is the goal? Are there any specific techniques that you would recommend when reading? A masterpiece or like a well-regarded memoir to help us learn from it as writers, not just enjoy it as readers.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 41:27

Yeah.

video1132690807 41:28

I would say that the first step is to allow for multiple right? Allow one reading just to enjoy the work. I mean, that's why we read, right? Read for pleasure. And then if you really love something, then you can go back to it and say, okay, now I wanna read it to understand why I like it, right? That's your first question. Well, why do I like it?

Lisa Cooper Ellison 41:49

flag the sections

video1132690807 41:51

you really love. Then go to those sections and say, okay, why do I

Lisa Cooper Ellison 41:55

love it because the language

video1132690807 41:57

is so crisp and clear, or the details, um, sparks something inside me or make me feel something? Or is it

Lisa Cooper Ellison 42:06

that there's

video1132690807 42:07

profound metaphor that connects me to something greater than myself? Like, look for those metaphors. Look for other aspects of the language. notice how you feel. And if you're having a strong feeling, read that over several times and ask yourself, what is this writer doing? That is helping me connect with my feelings. Right? So how long is that scene? Because usually scenes are where this happens. where a scene is is you know, something that's written in a cinematic way where something happens that creates change. how long is that scene? Is there dialogue? Um, is there a lot of

Lisa Cooper Ellison 42:42

action?

video1132690807 42:43

are we in the narrator's head, right? Are we getting that interior internal monologue? What's, what's

Lisa Cooper Ellison 42:49

happening there?

video1132690807 42:50

And so you can begin to look at those scenes and, and look at the architecture of them to the best of your ability because it was a great memoir. You shouldn't be able to see the architecture very well. And that's why it's awesome to read well-written memoirs, but it's not the only way to learn about the memoir writing process.

audioMaraEller11132690807 43:13

Yes. Which is such a perfect segue into my other question that I wanted to ask about reading other people's work, On a recent podcast episode of yours, you were talking about with your guest the value of reading works in progress, and your guest used the phrase so that you can see the seams, which I just loved using that, tailoring metaphor

video1132690807 43:34

that Mm-hmm.

audioMaraEller11132690807 43:35

you shouldn't be able to see the seams, or at least they should be very difficult. You know, you have to pull it apart to, to see them. But when you're reading something that's not yet finished, you can see that a lot more. So I've seen that to be very, very helpful as well. It's one of the powerful parts of like the program that I have where you get to give peer feedback and look for specific things that you've been trying to do and how's this writer doing them and that that process can be so. Beneficial for you as the person giving the feedback, even as it's also beneficial for the person receiving the feedback. So I wonder if you can elaborate on why that's powerful or maybe any tips for how to do that really effectively.

video1132690807 44:20

Yeah, that's a great question and I think we can use seams both in tailoring and also in,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 44:25

uh, architecture

video1132690807 44:26

and construction Because a wall is not generally built

Lisa Cooper Ellison 44:30

with just

video1132690807 44:31

one piece of sheet rock. It's usually multiple pieces of sheet rock. And there is actually a seam, right? There is seam tape that is put on to tie them together.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 44:42

And when a wall is constructed poorly, we see those

video1132690807 44:47

right? And when we are reading someone else's work

Lisa Cooper Ellison 44:50

that is in process. We don't have any

video1132690807 44:52

in the game. It's not our writing. And so when someone is giving you feedback on your work, you are so close to it, um, it's almost like the page is right in front of you, you know, and you can't see the words, right? You are emotionally, you are that tied to the writing. And so someone could give you the feedback of, you need to orient the reader in time and space in every scene. Or, you know, this scene is too long. You might be clutching your pearls about that because you're like, but no, I love this part.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 45:24

This is so important to me.

video1132690807 45:26

Well, when you read another, uh, writer's work and the scene is too long and you are feeling bored.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 45:33

You are having a somatic experience

video1132690807 45:36

of what it's like when writing is not going well, and if you feel that if you experience that, you're gonna learn that lesson more effectively than someone telling you 10, 15, 20, a thousand times to do this thing. Also when you see it not going well, and it's not

Lisa Cooper Ellison 45:56

your work,

video1132690807 45:57

whether you give the writer this feedback is another thing. So I'm gonna answer that part of the question next, but for yourself at least, you can begin to say, what are the parts that could be cut? What are the parts that don't need

Lisa Cooper Ellison 46:08

to be here? Where

video1132690807 46:10

it come alive? That might be the when it starts. And um, where does it feel like it, it's wrapped up already and that might be where it ends, or how can you wrap it

Lisa Cooper Ellison 46:19

up Like, what's a

video1132690807 46:21

moment you could end on? You can begin to play around with that and think about what those things are. And as you're thinking about how to do that, and you're puzzling through it in someone else's work, you are

Lisa Cooper Ellison 46:32

by osmosis

video1132690807 46:34

learning how to do that for your own

Lisa Cooper Ellison 46:36

work.

video1132690807 46:37

So the, there's a practice element that happens when you are reading other people's manuscripts and you are seeing the seams. First.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 46:45

You're like,

video1132690807 46:45

Oh my gosh, there's a seam. I see the seam. And

Lisa Cooper Ellison 46:48

you can

video1132690807 46:48

excited about that. And then you can say, okay, well what are the skills that we need to, you know, smooth that over, right? To create a, a stronger transition or whatever the thing is that needs to be fixed

Lisa Cooper Ellison 47:01

so that that works.

video1132690807 47:02

then you are applying those skills in real time. Now what do you give to the writer that you are working with? And so this is where we get to, Some of the, uh, finesse and the grace is that you always wanna remember that who the author is the god of their story. They are ultimately in control of what happens. Your job is to offer feedback

Lisa Cooper Ellison 47:24

that

video1132690807 47:24

with their vision. Okay? So that's

Lisa Cooper Ellison 47:26

number one.

video1132690807 47:27

The they have a vision and your job is to make that vision clearer rather than create your

Lisa Cooper Ellison 47:32

own vision.

video1132690807 47:33

And that's important because I've been in plenty of

Lisa Cooper Ellison 47:35

writing workshops.

video1132690807 47:37

where someone wants to give really good feedback and they're trying their absolute best and

Lisa Cooper Ellison 47:41

they're like,

video1132690807 47:42

know, if I was writing the story, I would, or, well, you know what you really should do. Okay? So if those words are coming to mind, stop right there. Instead be curious, have questions.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 47:54

You know, I'm curious about,

video1132690807 47:56

the motivation. of this narrator. Like, I don't know why they're doing that. We're not judging the person out in the world of like, why did they do that? That's a dumb thing to do.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 48:06

What we mean is I don't

video1132690807 48:07

on the page why they made this choice. So you can ask that question

Lisa Cooper Ellison 48:12

and

video1132690807 48:12

more you ask questions of the author, the more the author gets to interrogate their own story and find the solution that is best

Lisa Cooper Ellison 48:21

for them.

video1132690807 48:22

So being really good at, at developing questions will help you be able to give

Lisa Cooper Ellison 48:28

the best feedback.

video1132690807 48:29

And I'll tell you, as a writer, I am much more receptive to that kind of feedback, which helps me expand into my process than the kind of narrow feedback of like, you know, cut this or

Lisa Cooper Ellison 48:42

cut that,

video1132690807 48:43

or do this thing. And I'll say, you know, as an editor, sometimes I do have to say those words. I'm sure Mara, you also have to say those words sometimes. But the difference between being in a feedback group and being hired to be an editor is that, if someone is hiring you as an editor, they're asking you to do those things. If you are

Lisa Cooper Ellison 49:02

in a with a bunch of they're not asking you to They're asking you to expand their

video1132690807 49:09

and that is very different.

audioMaraEller11132690807 49:11

To provide data that they can then use. In the way that they see fit, And I love that tip again, of using a question, which brings us back to the curiosity

video1132690807 49:20

It just,

audioMaraEller11132690807 49:21

that's something I've tried to do, even as I am paid to tell people what to do to fix things, But it feels different. It lands differently if I say, well, what if you tried it this way versus do this?

video1132690807 49:34

Yeah, absolutely. I never say do this. I'll always say, here is an

Lisa Cooper Ellison 49:38

invitation.

audioMaraEller11132690807 49:39

Hmm.

video1132690807 49:40

And then what I always tell people is, take what you like

Lisa Cooper Ellison 49:42

and leave the rest because you know,

video1132690807 49:45

I said earlier in this

Lisa Cooper Ellison 49:46

episode,

video1132690807 49:47

what I'm sharing is subjective, right? It's one lens, and it doesn't have to be

Lisa Cooper Ellison 49:53

your lens. You get to decide what you truly want to apply to your writing.

audioMaraEller11132690807 49:58

And that alone is such a powerful insight ahead of client who Hired several editors and she had a really interesting experience of seeing four different people, four different professionals giving completely different feedback on what she should do with the exact same piece. And I remember her saying, wow, it's really a lot more subjective than I thought. And there are some rules which can be broken intentionally, but then there's a lot of stuff that's really not a rule at all. It's just a preference. And, you know, there are, there are many different ways to arrive at the same destination and there are many different destinations. So there's endless possibilities. okay. One thing that's come up a lot and what you've shared today is that these things take time. It's gonna take

video1132690807 50:41

mm-hmm.

audioMaraEller11132690807 50:42

multiple rounds of revision. It can take time just to even write a draft sometimes, depending on what we're working through emotionally. And also it's a very common experience for writers to think, I want to get this done eventually. You know, I, I would like this to be done before I turn, you know, whenever the next decade is or something. So are there any tips that you could give or mistakes that you see writers make that come up a lot that slow down their process, unnecessarily versus the necessary space that we need to provide?

Lisa Cooper Ellison 51:14

I think

video1132690807 51:14

too much time in your not giving yourself permission to take breaks. So what I will tell people is when you finish a draft, set it aside for a

Lisa Cooper Ellison 51:25

month,

video1132690807 51:25

Sometimes two or

Lisa Cooper Ellison 51:26

three months,

video1132690807 51:27

on how big the draft is and how long you've been working you wanna set it aside long enough that you can forget what you wrote, because then you're gonna come back to it with fresh eyes. Now does that mean that you stop writing? No. Does it mean even you have to stop working on this project? Hmm. Maybe, maybe not. You could work on a book proposal, you could work on your author

Lisa Cooper Ellison 51:48

platform.

video1132690807 51:48

so you are working with whatever the material is in

Lisa Cooper Ellison 51:51

a completely different way.

video1132690807 51:53

So that's number one. Not stepping away doesn't allow you to have perspective.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 51:59

And so that

video1132690807 52:00

I think, leads people to spin through draft, after draft. and so the other piece with that is don't line edit when you don't know the story. You

Lisa Cooper Ellison 52:10

can

video1132690807 52:11

can polish a page to the nth degree and if the story is not there, the story

Lisa Cooper Ellison 52:17

is not So that's something that I find people

video1132690807 52:20

slow themselves down, so much. What I, I tell people to do is get to story viability.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 52:26

Make

video1132690807 52:27

that

Lisa Cooper Ellison 52:27

it's a

video1132690807 52:28

first, and then you can come back and you can polish it and shine it up. the other thing

Lisa Cooper Ellison 52:33

I will say is that, it's

video1132690807 52:36

again about being in the pages too much. It's not just about taking a break, but about stepping back from your book and looking at it from another angle. I was in a, a conference with Rachel Cozi Ganza, who writes for the New Yorker, and I was one of her students one year. And she talked about how when she's

Lisa Cooper Ellison 52:55

working on a, an article

video1132690807 52:57

she would literally print every single page,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 52:59

put

video1132690807 53:00

it on the floor,

Lisa Cooper Ellison 53:00

and

video1132690807 53:01

get on a ladder and look at it. Now, if you're working on a book, that would be a little difficult to do 'cause you'd have a lot of pages and you wouldn't be able to see anything. But stepping back in, creating, say, an outline of some kind. Mm-hmm. Or a chapter outline where you have your chapter summaries or some other kind of document or exercise.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 53:20

That allows you to

video1132690807 53:21

at, especially narrative arc, which is that arc of change from a different angle is going to help you revise more efficiently because you're gonna be able to see what the story is. And then when you come back to the specific chapters, you can say, I know exactly what this chapter needs to do. I know what room it is in my house. Mm-hmm. And I know the function of that room in my house because the bathroom functions different than the living room, than

Lisa Cooper Ellison 53:47

the kitchen.

video1132690807 53:48

So when you think about it in those ways, the more you understand those things from stepping back, the more streamlined your revision process is gonna be.

audioMaraEller11132690807 53:58

Yeah, that's great advice. And I love the analogy with it too, that I was just thinking, oh, and then you can discover. Gee, I have 10 bathrooms in this house and no kitchen.

video1132690807 54:09

Mm-hmm.

audioMaraEller11132690807 54:09

sure. We could wash the dishes in the bathroom sink, but maybe let's just build a kitchen. And I don't know exactly what that would be in a book other than you can sometimes find, I have 10 of this same kind of scene that's really performing the same function. And gee, they're all really good, but I just don't need 10 bathrooms.

video1132690807 54:29

Yeah. Or you can have, an amazing house and you can have like this bungalow off to the side that's like its

Lisa Cooper Ellison 54:36

own little house

video1132690807 54:37

and you know it's somewhere else completely. Right. It's on an

Lisa Cooper Ellison 54:40

island. so

video1132690807 54:42

can find these stories within a story that don't necessarily need to be together. Right. You need to, detach them and separate them so that they can each do their own

Lisa Cooper Ellison 54:52

amazing work.

audioMaraEller11132690807 54:53

Yeah. maybe that can have another. Purpose. It can be its own standalone essay, but it's not part of this book. Yeah. I love those kind of exercises because that is such a big challenge is getting some distance from our own writing, which we can never, I think, get the same kind of distance that another person can get, which is why getting feedback both from peers and professionals is so essential. But we wanna do as much of that as we can on our own, because also that is where we learn so much about writing, is revising our own work. Okay. give us just one or two books, or it could be like a Substack writer. What have you been reading that you have really loved and what was so great about it? We'll link to those in the show notes and we'll wrap up.

video1132690807 55:40

Oh goodness. So I'm gonna try to be brief for the sake of time. A book

Lisa Cooper Ellison 55:45

that I am in love with

video1132690807 55:47

this moment is, uh, my name means Fire by Atash Ya Mayan. She's an Iranian author who has dissociative identity disorder, and she had this very powerful way to share her story, but also to share how DID helped her cope. Like, is it written in a completely new and unique way? So that is a book I absolutely love.

audioMaraEller11132690807 56:10

And this is a memoir. You just interviewed her, I believe?

Lisa Cooper Ellison 56:13

I did just interview her.

video1132690807 56:15

Yeah, Yeah. So you can go listen to

audioMaraEller11132690807 56:17

I'm gonna have so many links in our show notes. It's gonna

Lisa Cooper Ellison 56:20

Oh my gosh. Yeah,

video1132690807 56:20

I know. I could give you a bajillion links. So, yeah, I really like that. and for simplicity, I, I really like Stephanie Foos, what My Bones Know. I think that's a great book both for understanding and issue, like Complex PTSD, but also there's just. A really great

Lisa Cooper Ellison 56:37

way that she went

video1132690807 56:37

that story. I, of course, like the glass castle and I got a chance to meet Jeanette Walls and give her a hug and talk about how we're of the same tribe, you know, in terms of people who had, like things happen in childhood. I like Heavy by Kae Leman, and the list goes on and on.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 56:57

And

video1132690807 56:57

I would say is if someone's been on my podcast, I love something about their book.

audioMaraEller11132690807 57:01

Hmm. this has been really wonderful.

57:04

Tell listeners where they can find you.

video1132690807 57:06

if you want to hang out with me and connect with me, uh, YouTube at Lisa Cooper Ellison is a

Lisa Cooper Ellison 57:12

a great place.

video1132690807 57:13

I am on YouTube. I have a lot of fun there. Um, that's also where my podcast writing and resilience is located.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 57:19

Um, my Substack,

video1132690807 57:20

which is Lisa Cooper ellison.substack.com, and I'm also on Instagram at Lisa Cooper Ellison. So

Lisa Cooper Ellison 57:26

those are probably the best

audioMaraEller11132690807 57:28

Well, thank you so much for your work, Lisa, and for your generous spirit and supporting writers shepherding them through vulnerable, transformational work. I know it's changed a lot of lives and you know, I'm a little biased and kind of thing I also do, but I think this really is a way that we can powerfully work to make the world a better place. So I'm, I'm really thankful that you're doing what you do.

Lisa Cooper Ellison 57:54

Well, thank

video1132690807 57:55

you, Mara, for having me on your podcast for all the ways that you are shepherding writers

Lisa Cooper Ellison 58:00

to the finish line.

video1132690807 58:02

That is a big job, and I know, it takes a special person to do that because you have to not just have a love of stories. You have to have a. Incredible belief in the human spirit.

audioMaraEller11132690807 58:14

And that's ultimately what it's all about, this writing life. Okay. Well, thank you again and, um, look forward to maybe having you on again someday in the

video1132690807 58:24

Sounds wonderful.

58:26

That's it for today's episode. If you'd like to get one-on-one guidance for this kind of soulful writing work, I invite you to join the wait list for my five month memoir writing program, unearthing Beauty, designed to invite exactly this kind of personal and spiritual transformation. I would be honored to have you. learn more at the link in the show notes and be sure you're signed up for my free workshop on March 24th. Finish your Life Changing memoir. I included life changing in the title because just like we talked about today, even if you never publish a word Writing your memoir will change your life. So I hope you'll join me. I'll be back next Wednesday to take you deeper into the transformative power of writing. Until then, remember, words are more than ink on a page. They are a path to wholeness.