What Great Writers Understand About Sales with Steph Crowder, Business Coach (Ep. 13)

You poured your heart into your piece, found the courage to share it, and now . . . crickets. What gives?

In this episode, I’m joined by my business coach, Steph Crowder, to unpack a truth many writers resist: if you want readers, you have to learn how to sell your work—but not in the way you think.

We explore why authors need to think of themselves as entrepreneurs—and why selling your work isn’t separate from writing, but an extension of it.

Plus, we reframe sales as something deeply aligned with what writers already do best: tell stories, understand people, and create connection.

We cover:

• Why your fear of self-promotion is actually keeping your work from helping people
• A simple way to think about sales that doesn’t feel gross
• What it really means to “know your reader”
• How to build a platform without feeling performative
• Why imperfect, consistent posting beats perfection every time

At its core, this episode is about a mindset shift: seeing sales not as self-promotion, but as storytelling, connection, and service.

If you’ve ever thought, “I just want to write, not sell,” you need to hear this conversation!

Mentioned in this episode:

• A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah J. Mass
• Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros
• “Confessions of a Broke Millionaire” by Danielle Leslie
• Strangers: A Memoir of Marriage by Belle Burden
• The 15 Minute Planner Method

Connect with Steph on Instagram @heystephcrowder

___________________________________

Come join the discussion!

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And visit my website to learn more about my editing services, book coaching, and upcoming courses.

Transcript

0:03

Welcome to the Soul and Science of Great Writing, where the mastery of craft meets the mystery of creation. I'm your host, Mara, er, freelance editor, book coach, and writing teacher with over 16 years of experience. I'm obsessed with the transformative power of words and with understanding what makes writing truly exceptional. Not just to help my clients, but to grow my own craft too. So what makes writing truly great? Is it the spark of inspiration, the unique voice, the intangible soul that breathes life into words? Or is it the careful structure, repeatable strategies, and attention to detail that turn an idea into something readers can't put down? In truth, it's both. The soul and science of great writing brings creativity and craft together, exploring the soul and the science with equal parts, awe and analysis. Today we're talking about something. Most writers would rather avoid sales, but here's the truth. If you want people to read your work, you have to learn how to sell it. I'm joined by sales coach Steph Crowder, also my business coach, to explore why writers need to get comfortable with the idea of sales as an. Central part of being an author, it's an invitation to think of sales not as something extra or separate from writing that you have to do in addition to your actual writing, but instead, as part of what great writing already is, let's get to it.

audioMaraEller11757692472 1:26

welcome to the Soul and Science of great writing. Steph, thanks for being here.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 1:30

Thank you so much for having me, Mara. I am thrilled.

audioMaraEller11757692472 1:33

Did you ever imagine that you would be on a writing podcast?

audioStephCrowder21757692472 1:37

You know, I don't even think it's my first, I have, I think I've been on other writing podcasts before. I don't know if you know this about me, Mara. I am a English major. I majored in English and writing is like one of my first loves. I was a real weird kid and I remember I bought

audioMaraEller11757692472 1:55

a good sign. You're probably a writer if you're

audioStephCrowder21757692472 1:56

Yeah, I know, right? Yeah. That's like part, part of being in the club. I remember buying a really primitive computer off of, um, eBay when I was in probably like eighth grade and I would beg my parents to drop me at Barnes and Noble where I was writing my novel. And not a lot of people know this and I can't believe I'm gonna about to share it on the internet, but I was actually writing fan fiction of a soap opera that my mom liked. My god, that's really embarrassing.

audioMaraEller11757692472 2:26

Wow. Well, I appreciate you're like diving right into one of our core values here, which is vulnerability.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 2:33

Yep.

audioMaraEller11757692472 2:33

So I appreciate it. what was the soap opera? Do you remember?

audioStephCrowder21757692472 2:37

General Hospital,

audioMaraEller11757692472 2:38

Uh, classic. My Irish grandmother used to watch that.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 2:42

So in case anybody out there listening is like, I'm really uncool. I'm me too.

audioMaraEller11757692472 2:46

Go with it. I always say if you're not weird, you're boring.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 2:49

That's right.

audioMaraEller11757692472 2:50

well, I had no idea that you have that kind of special relationship with writing. Um, but tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do. maybe also how writing comes into that work.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 3:06

Yeah, So I am a business coach, and my background before I became a business coach was in sales and sales training. So I was an early employee at Groupon, the tech company, and I found myself as a 22-year-old in Chicago at the fastest growing company in history. We literally made the cover of Forbes Magazine with that title, the, the week that I started. Um, they were like, there's your desk. It's in a concrete warehouse. There's no walls. There's no windows. Just start making phone calls. By the way, your territory is Miami. I was like, okay. And I was really, really bad at it. I was a terrible salesperson and I actually was very nearly fired. I begged my parents to let me move home. They did not, and I'm very grateful for that because it forced me to figure things out. Which I ultimately did. I was like, it was a very much a sink or swim moment. And I was like, okay, if I'm not allowed to move home, I'll be damned if I get fired for this. Like, this is ridiculous. I am selling coupons on the internet. There were dumber people at the company who were killing it. I was like, I can figure this out. And I think one of the things that makes me a really great business coach that served me in this capacity at Groupon was, um, I have. Uh, a kind of a gift of pattern recognition and I started to see the patterns in sales. Maybe that's part of like, what I love about writing as well is like looking for patterns and, you know, the way things come back around and stories and things like that is very interesting to me. And so in sales, When you need to close 20 deals a month, it really starts to become a numbers game if you can learn how to take the emotion out of it. And so that's what I started practicing. I did the math. in, in my program now, which I'll talk about in a second, we call this having a sales cookbook. And I really figured it out. If I wanted to close 20 deals a month, I needed to make a hundred cold calls a day. And I would just come in and I started doing that. And long story short, I became very good at it. And then I got to be a sales trainer where we were training 50 new employees a week every single week for a long time. And then I was ultimately the sales training director at age 26. I got to go to Europe and teach this like sales process that we had come up with in the us. It was amazing. but then I ended up like. I, I knew I wanted to have a family. This was a very, I was a director at this point. It's a very high-paced, fast-paced job, and I started listening to podcasts. I started listening to podcasts about people making money on the internet, like smart Passive Income from Pat Flynn, if you've ever heard that podcast. And I was like, this is crazy. How are these people figuring this out? I've always been an ambitious person and I really wanted to have a career, but I knew I wanted to also have kids. I was raised by a stay-at-home mom, and this is very on brand for me, but I wanted to have all of it. I was like, I don't wanna choose, so let me see if I can figure out how to make this work. This was in 2015. We did not have lots and lots of people working from home, like working from home was. Very rare. And so I was like, if I'm gonna figure out how to work from home and be able to be really present with my kiddos, I am gonna have to have a business. And so, yeah, I ended up joining a company that taught me how to be a business coach. I was their, basically their director of customer service. And then I ended up kind of jetting off on my own. And, I started my own coaching business in 2017. So now if you fast forward To today, my main offer is I have a mastermind that Mara's in, called Sold Out Group programs, which teaches people with all different kinds of backgrounds how to start, sell out and scale a group program offer. And so it's pretty fun because a lot of those sales principles that I learned and taught all those years ago, I now use those to help people with all different kinds of life experiences and skillsets, get out there and, and find their customers online and, and earn a meaningful living, doing, doing work that they love.

audioMaraEller11757692472 7:01

Well, I'm sure glad that you do that because it's been pretty transformational in my world. Just for anyone who's curious, I'll add that Steph also helps not only with group programs, but any one-on-one offers and just life coaching. I mean, that's been one of the most powerful things for me and just I think, same with book coaching, a lot of times like to work on your business, to work on your book, to really do it well. You have to work on yourself and it's that process of transformation that's really the most valuable thing that comes out of all of it.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 7:34

Absolutely.

audioMaraEller11757692472 7:35

okay. So a question I like to ask everyone is, your case, it could be when it comes to writing, but also maybe to business in general, do you see yourself more on the side of like soul, soul approach or the science side,

audioStephCrowder21757692472 7:50

Yeah, I love this question because one thing I didn't mention is that my podcast is called the Courage and Clarity Podcast, and I feel like this is my version of soul and Science. Mara, I have always called it the head and heart of entrepreneurship, right? In order to be an entrepreneur, you have to have strategy. You have to be methodical, you have to know how to look at data, you have to understand trends. So that's really the head side, but it is every bit as much heart as well, you know, having the courage to go after it. To your, you kind of gestured towards this, but all of the mindset work that I do with my clients, where we talk about, I mean, we just, Mara and I came from my weekly call where one of my clients was really living at that intersection and in a question that she asked of like, how do I navigate selling my offer when I'm a single parent who is moving to a new state and how do I like, hold all of this? How do I Increase my capacity to do hard things. So I love talking business, but I, I probably love those conversations even more. So I think I'm pretty. I'm pretty in the middle, but I mean, hello. I'm also wearing right now a hat that has a unicorn on it that says De Lulu. Because I teach all of my clients how to be really delusional with their offer. a Delusional, in a positive way, like just like really in full belief before the evidence shows up. So a lot of sciencey people probably would not agree with that. So I guess I would say at the end of the day, soul really has my heart. I think this is a little controversial, but I think anybody can be a scientist. I think it takes a really special soul to. Believe in themselves before that evidence shows up. I think that, in, at least in the business world, probably writing too. I imagine that's where I think the hardest work is, uh, is really, you know, persevering and holding that belief. I know for a lot of authors out there, I love the, personally, I love the stories of people who had published 10, 20, 30 books before, like they became a household name, right? It's the same thing in business. I love the stories of like, you know, uh, actors and business owners who you didn't like. They didn't make it big or whatever until they were in their forties, fifties, sixties. So I am much more interested, personally, I love having conversations about what's working and like, again, the strategy side, but I just love thinking about the people who had the courage to keep going, even when it probably looked crazy on paper to continue doing so.

audioMaraEller11757692472 10:19

Yeah. I love what you said about anyone can do the science and, and I I know that we agree that like anyone can learn these things, like that's a positive, that's a positive thing, but also what then can really set you apart is. Something that no one can really teach you, but maybe they can, they can encourage, they can inspire, they can guide you. They can wear hats with unicorns on them,

audioStephCrowder21757692472 10:41

Yes.

audioMaraEller11757692472 10:42

but there's just something intangible there that is gonna bridge gaps. Maybe that science never could.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 10:51

Yeah, exactly.

audioMaraEller11757692472 10:53

Yeah. Okay. So part of the reason I wanted to have you on was because I've been thinking that whether they realize it or not, authors are entrepreneurs

video1757692472 11:04

Mm-hmm.

audioMaraEller11757692472 11:05

They are in a sales business, which probably most of us would bulk at, I certainly would have, don't love it even though I've accepted it. but even if you're not trying to make money from your writing, if you want anyone to read it, you have to sell it to them. So I'd love for you to tell us how you define sales,

audioStephCrowder21757692472 11:27

Mm.

video1757692472 11:28

Mm.

audioMaraEller11757692472 11:28

and I mean, I see you nodding and, agreeing in some ways, but like, would you agree that authors need to think about themselves more like entrepreneurs and, and what does that mean?

audioStephCrowder21757692472 11:37

Yeah. Yeah, totally. I would say authors need to think of themselves as entrepreneurs and specifically as salespeople for sure. You know, uh, it may be an unhinged take, but truly I think if you look hard enough and you don't have to look that hard at all, everything in life is sales, truly. And I think that comes down to, our most precious resource on the planet. We could, It's not even money, but it's our time, right? It's our time and our attention, and we all wish we had more time. We're always rushing. Time goes by so fast. You look back on your life and you're like, where did the time go? And in this reality, when you're asking somebody to pause and read your words or pick up your writing, you better have a pretty compelling reason that's gonna make me, you know, forego the 70 other things on my list to spend time with your writing. Right? And I don't, I hope that doesn't sound discouraging. I don't mean as like, you better gotta convince me. It's not really that, but I think if we all think about it, any, anything we've ever read, we were sold on at least trying it. So that's what's interesting, right? So it's like there's sales kind of happening at every point of the process. You're selling people to even get them to start your work. But then like, how many times do we start a book and we don't finish it, or we start a piece and, and we put it down, right? So the sales process actually continues. Throughout the, the work, right? And I think sometimes people hear sales and they're like, oh, that, like, there's no heart in that. There's no, authenticity in that. And I don't see it that way at all. My favorite way to look at sales is very much through the lens of storytelling. The best salespeople are a, the best listeners. Okay. I always tell this story of how, when I was a sales trainer at Groupon, our top performers who were selling millions and millions of dollars were sometimes the quietest people, the most introverted people. Like I know, we think of salespeople as like Schmoozers and the Wolf of Wall Street and car salesman. And that extroversion can work in a sales setting, but don't sleep on the introverts in the more, I guess quiet is not quite the word I'm looking for, but maybe the people who prefer listening before speaking make excellent salespeople because all sales really is, is making people feel understood and helping people be seen in your story. And so if you are naturally someone who's good at understanding others, you're likely a good listener. And great sales is really just great listening is all it is, is really hearing somebody putting together a custom solution and then offering that and having somebody be like, yeah, that's exactly what I'm looking for. So I think it's actually quite interesting to think about writing through this lens and what kinds of stories we can tell. In our writing, but also about our writing that makes somebody be like, you know what? I am gonna spend time in this one precious life that I've been given to give this, this writing a shot. So to your point, Mara, whether you want to believe this or not doesn't make it any less true. Uh, it's just a question of whether you wanna get on board and how quickly you can get on board with the idea that sales is really running as an undercurrent throughout the, this entire conversation, I think when it comes to writing.

audioMaraEller11757692472 14:54

I love that You said tell stories in your writing, but also tell stories about your writing.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 14:59

Yeah. yeah.

audioMaraEller11757692472 15:00

I think that idea of storytelling will resonate with writers who are, trying to get on board with this shift.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 15:08

I, I, think maybe writers might who struggle with this idea of, oh God, I gotta be a salesperson. It's probably the drudgery of that comes from, I've, I've helped so many people sell so many different personalities, and the people who struggle with it the most are people who are entertaining thoughts. Like, I'm gonna have to change my personality. like, that's not me. I'm not gonna be allowed to be myself. And also you might be telling yourself, oh my God, this is this whole new skillset that I don't know how to do. And I think as a writer, there's a real invitation. Y'all are storytellers, right? There's an invitation to say to yourself, oh, I already know how to do that. I'm already a storyteller. I think what makes me great at sales is how much I love writing the weirdo at Barnes Noble in eighth grade, Ordering the cheesecake and writing a fan fiction about General Hospital. it all comes down to. Really loving stories about people and understanding what makes people tick. I think that's the other thing people should think about is all sales really is, is understanding. A lot of it is human psychology and how humans think and how we relate to ourselves and each other and the emotion. You're already doing all of that in your writing. You're already doing it. So I think there's such an opportunity to stop looking for all the ways that you can't do it because it's new and different. And instead you'll have an easier time being like, how am I already doing a lot of this? And that might actually give me an extra edge when I, it comes to learning how to market and sell my work.

audioMaraEller11757692472 16:34

Yeah. along these lines, one of the things I've really appreciated that you are constantly coaching people on is you know how to get comfortable being seen and, talking about their work, Really changing the way we think about sales. That it's not sleazy or manipulative, done well, it's about connection and service.

video1757692472 16:51

Mm-hmm.

audioMaraEller11757692472 16:52

so I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about how you see sales as a service, if you know, for listeners who are here thinking, you know, I just wanna help people with my writing. How does this actually support that goal? And you mentioned listening. I'm wondering, if we're not sitting in a room with our ideal readers, how can that listening? Because I think that listening part is part of how you serve people. So how does that part apply if there's a little distance between us and the people that we're trying to reach?

video1757692472 17:27

Yeah.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 17:28

Great questions. So for the first one, what I would say is if you're somebody who, and I, I run into and work with a lot of people who feel this way, like, I just wanna help people. I just wanna make an impact. Mara, I know you've been talking a a lot about memoir lately, right? So it's like with memoir in particular, it's like, this thing happened to me, I have this story and I think I could benefit other people. Right? Well, here's a way to clean yourself up real quick on this is you can't help anybody if they don't know you exist. your book, your writing your words cannot impact people if they're not on anybody's radar. And that's just the truth of it. Like if you want to serve, you have to take yourself outta the equation. I know you love when I talk about this, Mara will, one of the things I always say is, not selling is selfish. It's a selfish thing to do. If you have a story, if you have a message inside of you and you're like, well, this could help a lot of people, but I don't wanna take up too much space. I don't wanna be annoying. I don't want people to not like me, so I'm gonna just kind of make myself small. which is not your fault. Like this is very, like very, very, very deep conditioning, very steeped in society. So it's, it's a lot to overcome. But a lot of times people don't wanna sell because they think they're being selfish. They think they're making it about themselves. And I'm always here to remind folks it's the exact opposite, When you sell from a place of service, you are actually thinking about the end user, the end reader, the person that you're benefiting, even at your own expense. Every time I post, every time I. I'm out there in the world. I am cringing at myself. It never goes away. Right? I'm not on there for my health. I'm on there because every time I show up, if I can just find one person, if one person can benefit from my message, then it was worthwhile. And so I think the mistake there is thinking that you're making it about you. When you sell it's a hundred percent the opposite, it's like getting outta your own way, getting over yourself and your own embarrassment and your own like, oh gosh, how did I, like, I can't believe I'm doing this. and having that mindset, if I could just impact one person, if me showing up today means that one person is gonna benefit from what happened to me or from this story that I have inside me, then it's worth it. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing about listening, I think that's a really great question, is like, what are you gonna, you know, how do you tap into that when you can't necessarily ask your readers? I think there's a lot of work we can do. To understand our reader and really know who our reader is without being able to put a face to a name without being in a room with them. You can still ask yourself and picture them, right? Like, who is the person that I'm, targeting when I'm writing this? Like, who is the person that that could benefit from this? And then like, very similar with sales and business. I think great writing is also solving people's problems, right? And thinking about like, what problems do these people have? I mean, this is a kind of an off the wall example, Mara, so hopefully you'll forgive it. But I'm even thinking, I mean, I am a fan, I am a romantic reader. Okay. So that's my favorite. Like when I'm off the clock, I love reading you a cord of thorns and roses, uh, fourth wing, all of those types of books you might be thinking, what in the world are those books? So like is, that's not solving a problem. Yes, it is. Okay. It has been a craze with millennial women, gen X women. We could go down this whole rabbit hole, but it's like a, a sexual reclaiming and a awakening for a lot of women in particular who were told to be the good girl who were told to not have desire like that is very much solving a problem. It's helping women reclaim that part of themselves that wants to, maybe have more like a better romantic life with their partner. Like that's the reason a lot of us are reading these books because of how the story that we performed our whole lives in accordance with what was told to us. Right? So I think it can maybe be fun for people to think of like, how does different writing out there fit this? What I'm saying of like, all great writing is solving some problem. It's either a. like literally helpful and educational, which a lot of great writing is. Or it can be entertaining entertainment solves the problem of feeling bored, feeling sad. Like entertainment is a problem in like to, to solve in and of itself. So if you start thinking of it as what problem am I solving by putting this out there, you will also heal some of those selfish thoughts.'cause a lot, especially if you're writing something like memoir, you're like, who? Who cares? Who cares what happened to me? Why would anybody wanna read that? I think you could think of it as how does reading what happened to me solve somebody else's problem? How do I create, like you said, connection or relateability or make somebody else feel seen by telling this story?

audioMaraEller11757692472 22:13

Yeah. And of course it can be lots of those goals at the same time like a memoir should be entertaining. and it can be entertainment plus. Any of those other things. Yeah.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 22:24

absolutely.

audioMaraEller11757692472 22:25

So, of course, authors, book coaches, we talk about knowing your ideal reader, which is your ideal customer. And one of the things you recommend is finding some of those real people and talking to them about, in this case it might be questions like, what do you read? And, what do you like about it? And, and I don't know, maybe something about like, how are you feeling when you pick up, your book or,

audioStephCrowder21757692472 22:49

Yeah. Why do you read? Why read in the first place when you can turn on Netflix or do any other number of things?

audioMaraEller11757692472 22:54

yeah, along those lines, building a platform is increasingly a requirement for any kind of publishing success today. But showing up on social media can feel very intimidating, especially for those introverts. Talk to us a little bit about audience growth and how that fits into the sales conversation, and more specifically how you think about showing up online in a way that builds genuine connection and doesn't feel overly performative.

video1757692472 23:26

Yeah.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 23:27

I think audience growth is really just an extension of everything we've been talking about here, right? It's the whole idea of how it's, it's, it's great that you wanna impact people and help people with your story or entertain people with your stories, but again, if they don't know you exist, you're not helping anybody. You're not benefiting anyone. So really, all audience growth really is, is connecting you with the people that can benefit. That's it. That's all it is. And similarly, I think when we think about what to post on social media or how to grow a platform. It's also about thinking about what kinds of problems do your ideal readers have, and that will be relevant for some, some types of writers. For other writers, maybe it's more like, what are they interested in? What pulls them in? What kinds of stories are going to, you know, capture their attention? I think it really all does come back to storytelling. I have been thinking a lot in talking to a lot of other content creators, people who do content, use content as part of their business model. And I mean, increasingly I think what's really, what people are really gravitating towards, especially in an era of AI generated content, is being willing to do what the robots cannot do, which is be human. And you know, people don't want you to be guarded. People don't want you. It's not that you gotta air all of your dirty laundry, although I will say if you're willing to, it's gonna do better. People gravitate, like I, I was actually at a conference this weekend and somebody was, was speaking about Instagram in particular, and she said, that part that you wanna skip over that, that needs to be in the post. Right. That part that you're like. Like hers was, she was, her example was like, and then I went to jail, like I went to jail and she was like, I don't wanna share that, but like this post blew up because she shared it. I'm also thinking just, and I forgive this if it's a bit of a tangent, but I just think for listeners of this podcast who probably are really interested in storytelling for a great example of, I think, unexpectedly incredible storytelling from someone who's more of like a business type. Danielle Leslie is a great person to look at on Instagram. Danielle Leslie is a, she's been around forever. She's a business coach who has made$25 million with a digital course and she's doing a whole series right now it's on Instagram, but she's inviting people to read the whole thing on Substack and it's called The Diaries of a Broke Millionaire. And it's all about how she made$25 million and is now in six figures of debt. And just the story that she's telling around this chapter of her life is like, every time she posts, I'm like, this is fascinating. Think about how vulnerable that is, that she's willing to share. You know, being one of the most influential people in my industry, um, the reality of, okay, it's great to make millions and millions of dollars, but what, what can happen on the other side? What happens when you know your life just like, goes in different direction Or you, you know, things happen differently than what you expected? And picking up the pieces after that. So. Back to the point about content and audience growth. I think writers and authors actually have an, an unseen advantage if you let yourself have it, which is you're already a storyteller. And I think it's so interesting, we go to our content platforms, we're like, let me be on Instagram now. Right? Right. Like, and it's like, what if you just invited yourself to, to be a storyteller on those platforms? I think too often I fall into this too. We think like there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it, and I don't want my content to flop, so let me copy what everybody else is doing. But then we just end up with generic, like forgettable posts. also, uh, like, just because this is fresh on my, on my mind from this conference I went to, something someone said in a session was like, uh, if I can remember her exact quote, it was like, good girls. Like, you know, thinking that you can just post like good girl content that's not controversial, that doesn't create a stir. Good girls are always going to be overlooked online.

video1757692472 27:30

Right.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 27:31

Like if you're not willing, and I know you've had a little bit of a, not a little bit of a, a significant like brush with viral content. Like not everybody was nice. Not everybody was agreeing with you. You had to be willing to like endure some dissent. And I think if we even can welcome that, that's how you'll actually create interesting discussion. I went in a lot of different directions there. So how's that for an

audioMaraEller11757692472 27:52

yeah. I love it. Well, okay, so. I think that last point is particularly interesting, that you're saying part of the deal is if you really wanna serve the people who can benefit from your work, whether that's your book or something that you're offering in your business, you have to be willing to upset or offend or well, you didn't say offend, so you can correct these

audioStephCrowder21757692472 28:17

No, I agree.

audioMaraEller11757692472 28:17

yeah, or just, trigger the ire of, you know, some internet trolls

audioStephCrowder21757692472 28:25

Yeah.

audioMaraEller11757692472 28:26

and it's kind of this weird tension that I, as you said, experienced a tiny bit of, it's like, ah, I'm living the dream of getting trolled, you know? so I think I'd love to hear a little bit more about that because. It's like, well, I don't want that. But how? How do we prepare ourselves for that? How can we prepare ourselves for that possibility, that inevitability, if we really say something worth saying? I'm not saying that if it doesn't get haters, it wasn't worth saying, but like, you know, something that really makes a difference is going to be a little controversial for someone. And it's something we talked about with memoir too, right? Of like, you might offend your mother-in-law, whoever it is. So yeah, coach us a little bit on how to prepare for that and how to handle it. It.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 29:15

I think similar to the conversation about, like, one of the reasons, one of the ways that writers might make the idea of sales so painful is by telling yourself that you are just like a fish outta water who's like, I don't know what I'm doing. You could run into a similar mistake here by telling yourself like, oh my gosh. Like I, I don't want to invite in the hate or the mean comments, but I think writers have a real opportunity to look for all of the ways that y'all are already doing this. Can we talk about book reviews? I mean, whoa. Like if you, and I know not everybody listening to this podcast wants to publish and sell, but I'm guessing most of you probably want your words read by someone, right? And. Yeah, not everybody's gonna like it. And like, I love that expression that's like, you're not, like there are people out there who don't like Nutella, who don't like ice cream. Like there's nothing that's universally liked. And you know, I'm not a published author, but I have clients and friends who are, and it's like, you just have to get you, like you are signing up for the one star review, you are signing up for somebody to be like, this book sucked. And You writers do an amazing job of just accepting that. You're like, yeah, I'll take, like, that's part of the tradeoff and I want it 10 times outta 10. I think you have to get to a similar place with being visible online. I, you know, at this, as I mentioned at this conference, I was at, one of the, people who was speaking was talking about going viral on TikTok, which she had done many times. And she was like, I get so excited for the hate. It's just a reframe. She's like, every mean comment, she's like, content. Another idea, like she will take the comment and make new content about the comment, right? She actually sees the dissent as helping her because you've learned this, Mara. The more people discuss, like it's, it's like the whole, you know, no PR is bad pr, it's the same thing. If people are just discussing, sharing, even if they're sharing to make fun of you behind your back, it's all engagement. And so I think you can actually neutralize it by being like, oh, you know, oh man, I only want positive comments. No, Any comment is helping your post be seen or, you know, having your work be out there. And I'm not recommending anybody be like. intentionally inflammatory or rage bait, although that is certainly a strategy. I'm just more so recommending this as a reframe for you to get on board with the fact that not everyone's going to agree and there's a lot of unhealed people on the internet who just love to be negative and they're gonna find your stuff and they're gonna have something to say about it. So I like that you used the word inevitable instead of like it being a possibility. It's an inevitability. Just the same way that a negative book review is in, I don't know anybody who's got a a hundred percent, five star rating on good reads. Whoa. I mean, that place, man, they're, they're tough, right? And it's like you're just signing up for that because it's the cost of being a published writer. So I think it's very similar.

video1757692472 31:56

Yeah,

audioMaraEller11757692472 31:57

I think there's a lot of ways you can frame that, one of them being to go back to the soul side, like whenever you're doing something that has a really positive impact or that has the potential for a really positive impact. It can seem like the universe or, you know, forces or however you wanna think of it, can try to shut you down. And it's like you can reframe that as a good sign. and you don't even have to go to the, to the woo side to make that reframe, but just, hey, like, how do I know that I'm really saying something that matters because somebody doesn't like it?

audioStephCrowder21757692472 32:29

Mm-hmm.

audioMaraEller11757692472 32:30

which definitely takes some courage and it takes conviction that what you are sharing is really gonna matter, which goes back to your d Lulu hat,

audioStephCrowder21757692472 32:41

Yeah.

audioMaraEller11757692472 32:42

that like you have to have this conviction. have to be sold out on your offer as you save before you can sell out your offer.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 32:52

Yes. Hundred percent. Yeah. It really reminds me, it goes all the way back to the be where we started with me sharing a bit about my background, the way that I got on board with sales and this job that I hated so much, and I was crying and I was terrible at it. And I had a pit in my stomach every single day thinking about being hung up on because I was hung up on, I was screamed at. It was awful until I started to see that that behavior, those nos, those people hanging up on me were actually part of hearing. Yes. And I would have I, I'll never forget it, I would print off this little bubble sheet. We called it a bubble sheet, and it was a hundred bubbles, and I would just cross them off as my day went on. I wouldn't go home until I crossed'em all off. It didn't matter what was said on the other side, it did not matter. I just neutralized it. If it was a yes, obviously I was excited, but I would just be like, okay, cross it off and move on to the next one. And so I

audioMaraEller11757692472 33:41

me of, so say that reminds me of what some people do with rejections from agents or publishing houses that you know, okay. My goal is to get a hundred rejections.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 33:51

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like eventually you're gonna get some positive action. So I think if we're thinking in the context of being online and and inviting hate in, I think you would have to see that as part of the road to being where you wanna be.

audioMaraEller11757692472 34:04

That said, I don't wanna make it sound like as soon as you start showing up on social media, you're gonna be bombarded with hate messages. it really isn't as common as you might think unless you're really engaging with some really hot button issues from the start, maybe in that case. But, I just wanna acknowledge that, that that could be one issue. But for a lot of us, we never get to that point.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 34:28

Yeah. I would say the internet is largely a really warm place. I mean, I'm an optimist at heart, but like I think people for the most part can expect majority of support and connection and a little bit of. Ridiculousness as well.

video1757692472 34:44

And

audioMaraEller11757692472 34:44

the sort of more immediate or more common struggle is what we were talking about earlier of just finding the belief, finding the stories that you can share, and then just practicing. Like that's a big thing that you told me to do when I was feeling frustrated with social media is just, get on there with your face if possible.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 35:05

Yep.

audioMaraEller11757692472 35:06

Face and voice create a lot more connection and sales is about connection, right? and then just keep doing it and it will get easier.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 35:14

I was coaching on this, just On our call earlier today, somebody brought up, we had actually had a lot of conversation about visibility and, and what comes up for us. And one of the things I said is if you post something and it flops or nobody cares, or you're like, oh, thought that was gonna, that, that one was gonna take off and it doesn't, the best way to recover from that is to just post again. Just post again. Right? I mean, it's like, I could see so many parallels with, I know what you teach in writing is like just, keep writing, right? Like the idea of a crappy first draft. Like, just get it out there. Just get it out there and keep going. Sometimes I think with writing, I know. one of the things that's commonly taught is like, it, it's more important to just sit down and write something than it is to try to make it amazing on the first pass. I think it's very similar with content is like just back up and keep doing it because eventually you will figure out like, oh, that one actually did something. Somebody replied, somebody shared it, like something positive happened. And that's what I was coaching this client on earlier today.'cause she was saying like, I keep, getting ideas for content and then second guessing whether it's good enough and then I just don't post. And I said, If you at least post it for 90 days, then you have a whole bunch of data you can look at and be like, what of this worked right? When you keep not doing anything, kinda like with writing, when you, when you Mara have your, your clients write, then at least you have something to edit. It's the same thing where it's like, let's get some stuff out there so that we even have any data to work with. If you just keep it to yourself and you don't post it all, we won't, we won't ever know what's gonna work.

audioMaraEller11757692472 36:44

Yeah,

audioStephCrowder21757692472 36:44

Hmm.

audioMaraEller11757692472 36:45

and I think this helps us start to segue into my next question, which is about what is different about writing for sales versus writing for books or even blog posts. And I think social media is a great environment to look at that within. One thing I was thinking, as you were saying, you know, just do the first draft kind of thing is, when you're writing a book or a blog, you know, I do think you should edit that fairly carefully, but when social media not so much,

audioStephCrowder21757692472 37:12

Yeah.

audioMaraEller11757692472 37:12

you know, like that's the other place where I can definitely get bogged down and a lot of people who might identify as perfectionists like myself can get really bogged down. It's like, okay, well I'm, I think it's a good idea. I'm just gonna do it real quick. And five hours later, you know, I'm still tweaking it.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 37:28

Right. Yeah. I think you in particular, Mara, have gotten so much better about speed, and I think speed is really important for. This world that we're talking about because it's just not that deep. Right? And it does move quickly. And if you have a post or a piece of content that's not really gonna hit, then we wanna not feel like on top of it, you know, the sting of like, oh man, that didn't really work. Nobody really liked it or cared. And now also I spent five hours on it. Right? So I think that is a skill for sure of like allowing it to be imperfect, allowing yourself to move quickly so that you can keep it moving.

audioMaraEller11757692472 38:05

People really. But back to the, you know what robots can't do? Robots can make a perfect, post or something, but they can't really make imperfect ones. They can make really bad ones. It's a slightly different category, but they're still like perfect in their terrible way. so, take that as encouragement to be imperfect and to let it be messy, which is something that you're always telling us as well. And, also that nobody's gonna remember what you did in a a month, basically. So you can repeat, you know, as far as the, like, write a rough draft and then edit it. Like write a rough draft, post it, and then if you wanna edit it, you can post it again in a month or two

audioStephCrowder21757692472 38:42

Right, right.

audioMaraEller11757692472 38:43

different version. You know, use a different picture. Like, that's a real important area to try not to overthink,

audioStephCrowder21757692472 38:49

Yeah. And to answer your question even more directly about like how, this might be like writing in this way or thinking about

video1757692472 38:57

the

audioStephCrowder21757692472 38:57

sales side of things is maybe different than other kinds of writing. One little. tidbit that I'll offer that I think can be really, really helpful. And I don't say, I wanna caveat it real quick. I don't want anyone to get too caught up.'cause I think this can create an obsession loop of like, well you'll, you'll understand in a second. but lemme just say that there. I learned this in my Groupon days when I was taught by men in their sixties of the old school sales guys. And some of the idioms and things they had were so corny. And this is one of them, but it's really stayed with me because it's so true. They would say everyone's favorite radio station is W-I-I-F-M, which stands for what's in it for me. Okay. And so if you think about your writing. For sales or whether that's your con, you need to, you need to be thinking about this with your content. Every single post should be answering the question, what's in it for them? And that should be abundantly clear. Even when you're breaking down Taylor Swift, you know the literature of Taylor Swift, like why does somebody care about that, Right? Like what is in it for them? And when you take it through that lens and or if you're thinking about your writing and like maybe you're writing like a marketing blurb for your book or what, there's so many different. scenarios you could find yourself in. But if you just ask yourself like what is truly in it for them? I think all of us, and you can start to see this, you can start to see the difference between, oh, that person just threw up content that they were serving themselves. They were just like, I think this is interesting, so let me put it up. versus why does, like taking it through the lens of why should somebody else care? What's in it for them? What problem is it solving? Why is it about them that, again, not sharing it so people can spiral out and like be like, ah, and then not post or not right, but really thinking about again, coming from that place of service, it will change even subtly in ways subtle and also in ways big. It'll change how you're kind of like shaping that message. I think.

audioMaraEller11757692472 40:49

Any other tips that you would offer us as far as what makes for great writing in a marketing context versus what makes for great writing in other places?

audioStephCrowder21757692472 41:01

The, the advice that's coming up, I think this is gonna be increasingly my advice, similar back to the conversation about like AI and stuff be weird, you know, like, be weird. Be, if weird's not your thing, then at least be different. Be like memorable standing like I know it is. So counter again, like all of us just wanna blend in. It's what we were always told to do. So I know it's a tall ask, but back to my story about Danielle Leslie using her as an example, that stands out. Who else is talking about that? Making$25 million and then being in six figures of debt like that is so different. And so if you can think, again, it's not fodder to obsess over, but like what makes you, what is so unique about your story? What is the part that you don't wanna tell? What is the part that you're scared for people to find out That is the exact stuff that makes you interesting, that makes you human, that makes you memorable. So I think to start to play with like, like I was actually, um, sitting at dinner next to someone the other night at the, this conference and I mentioned my Groupon history. She's like, I don't even know that about you. And I was like, I mean, I feel like I talk about it all the time, But she's like, that's so interesting. Right? It's like even just little things like that will stick in somebody's mind. So I think so often we wanna look what's everybody else doing on social media? Oh, what's working? You can do that to start to get a sense, but then ask yourself, what is, so what can nobody replicate? There is no other business co coach out there who worked at Groupon, who was a sales training director, like nobody else can take, can take that. And so what is your version of that? And then just having the courage to talk about it really loudly, I think.

audioMaraEller11757692472 42:36

Yeah, I love it. You're hitting it hard on the soul side of things. After all,

audioStephCrowder21757692472 42:41

I guess. So

audioMaraEller11757692472 42:42

I was thinking, okay, well what are the science, like any sciencey tips and like, the only one I'm thinking of is that you're always telling me to basically put one sentence per paragraph in my emails,

video1757692472 42:54

Mm-hmm.

audioMaraEller11757692472 42:55

um, which would probably apply to social media as well.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 42:57

Well, I will say this on the science side, I think anyone who's trying to influence a metric such as like audience growth, like for those of you who are trying to grow a platform, I think we call these, in my program, we call these MMAs money making activities, and it's important to know what yours are, but specifically for those of you that are, let's just talk about building a platform. A lot of people will be like, I want 10,000 followers, but that's an outcome. Okay? So that's one of the other big things I learned in sales that changed everything was you don't actually create outcomes. You create inputs. You only get to control what you put into the oven. The oven makes the cake, right? So you have to figure out what are my inputs? An example of an input if you're trying to grow on Substack or Instagram would be, I'm gonna post three to five times. Every week for 90 days. Okay. So that to me would be like, the science side of things is like actually track your, your progress, actually track your inputs. A lot of times people will try a few times on a platform and be like, well that didn't work. And then they abandon it. It's gonna take a lot more discipline and diligence and just commitment. So I think it's very heartening to focus on what you can control. Literally, the followers, the readers, all of that will follow and you don't control those things. So there's no point in getting all whipped up about them. This is what happened with Mara. She just really on, on Instagram and TikTok, she just started focusing on. What she was putting in, and then the views came, and the comments came and the followers came. Right. But you only can focus on the actual inputs. So for me personally, like I, I am trying to grow on Instagram too. I'm focusing on three to five posts a week for 90 days. I'm not even really, I mean, I'll track my followers, but I know I don't control that. So I would say that on the science side of things, and that applies to so many places in sales.

audioMaraEller11757692472 44:44

Yeah, that's really good. Same with writing that we want to focus on. What we can control, which to some degree you can control your word count, you know, sometimes people say, you know, make sure you're writing X number of words a day or, you know, those kinds of goals. But I don't even like that because sometimes you can sit and think about a character or a scene for 20 minutes and really make a lot of progress, but you write one sentence.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 45:10

Right.

audioMaraEller11757692472 45:10

So yeah. I love that tip.

video1757692472 45:13

All

audioMaraEller11757692472 45:13

right. Anything else that you would say to authors who are listening and thinking about this idea of needing to sell their books or to think of themselves as entrepreneurs? Before we close up with my last question.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 45:27

I think I sort of shared this, you know, in passing before, but just to really hammer at home, we really create the suffering and resistance when we fight against.

video1757692472 45:37

What

audioStephCrowder21757692472 45:38

is just reality, right? And so it's like, if you can just, one of the things, one of the tools I use a lot in my coaching is curiosity, right? Like curiosity is such a balm and such an antidote in so many situations. I think if you can get curious instead of being like, oh, sales, oh my God, like that's gonna create resistance and suffering 10 times outta 10 versus curiosity. This is why I love sales so much is because I'm just so curious about what makes people tick. I love trying to understand people. I'm always trying to like decode like what is going on in people's brains? So that's coming from a place of curiosity. So I think if you can get curious about like some of these questions that you might have, like what makes people read, what makes people share, what makes people comment, and then just trying, like going more and more in that direction. I think leaning into it versus fighting against it is gonna just take so much of the pain of it away.

audioMaraEller11757692472 46:29

I Totally agree. and getting curious about what you're doing too, of like, Hmm, what will happen if I try this? And sort of having more fun with it, which is something I've had to try to learn to do and have, have successfully done at times. And it feels really good when it's fun to produce something, because then again, you're less. Invested in how people respond.'cause it doesn't feel like, oh, I just spent five miserable hours making this thing. It's like, Hey, I spent however much time, but it was kind of fun.

video1757692472 46:58

Exactly.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 46:59

Yeah. Have fun with it for sure. And then the other thing I would say, and perhaps this is a little obvious, but I'm just, I'm, I'm, I am what we call a product of the product. I am such a huge proponent of having a coach, you know, have a coach that you can get coached by, whether that is someone like Mara, who's a book coach, or someone like me who's a business and sales coach or a life coach, but coaching has completely changed my life, not only because it's my career, but I am heavily coached myself. When I wasn't, I actually quit and shut down my business altogether. And so I think when you're taking massive action and you're asking yourself to like literally dismantle the patterns that you grew up with that are gonna keep you from being visible, you are need to get outside of your own brain. So finding a coach that you vibe with that is teaching the result and getting the result that you are looking for, I cannot recommend that enough. Um, I just think it's absolutely huge for, for getting to the next level.

audioMaraEller11757692472 47:53

Yeah. I definitely agree. That's why I am with you. okay, so I,

video1757692472 47:58

I,

audioMaraEller11757692472 47:59

I always like to wrap up by asking you to share something you've read recently, however you wanted, define that, that you would recommend as an example of great writing,

audioStephCrowder21757692472 48:09

Yes. Okay. So I'm glad that I knew this question in advance'cause I was like, oh my gosh, I, wanted to take a minute to prepare. So I thought I would share my one and only, we're recording this in April. My one and only five star read personally of, uh, 2026 so far. And I actually, I told you about this book, Mark'cause it is a memoir, it's called Strangers, A Memoir of Marriage by Bell Burden. this book, I had think I saw it recommended on TikTok and I actually listened to the audio book, because she narrates it.

audioMaraEller11757692472 48:39

which counts, by the way, we haven't addressed that on this podcast yet,

audioStephCrowder21757692472 48:42

Thank you. Right. It definitely counts. And I thought the writing was incredible and so specific and beautiful, but also the story, great example of storytelling. Um, and also a great example, like so many of the, of the things we've talked about, courage, she really talks about like, debating whether or not she was gonna write about this and publish it. I think, I believe a piece of the work first appeared in the New York Times under a column, and she talks about like the process of like, it's just, it's so interesting, but it's a great read. not only is like the actual, the events are very interesting, but also the writing, it's just really good. So that, that's my favorite. Like, I read all kinds of romantic that I enjoy, but as far as like that gets five stars, that that was the one for me so far this year.

audioMaraEller11757692472 49:26

Awesome. Yeah. Another one of my guests also mentioned that book.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 49:30

Hmm.

audioMaraEller11757692472 49:30

Interesting new memoir. So that is at the top of my list. as far as the romancey, if you were gonna recommend one, maybe to someone who is not, vested in that genre yet, what would you pick?

audioStephCrowder21757692472 49:42

Oh, it's such a hard, it's such a hard one for me. I think Fourth Wing and that series, it's called The Imperion. there's three books right now. There's a fourth one coming. that one gets my heart. If you like Harry Potter. It's like Harry Potter meets hunger games with dragons. Uh, it, it's, it's great. And like you have to, like romance as well. I never cons. Yeah. I never considered myself a romance reader, but like the, the love story is, is top tier and I just feel like it awakens the Harry Potter Loving child and those of us who grew up around that. So yeah, those books are fantastic. By Rebecca Yaros, the Fourth

audioMaraEller11757692472 50:18

Okay, we'll put all these in the show notes. I, I'm not, I have not done, I don't know, I'm like, have I read any romantic? Probably not. I probably need to just because it's such a popular genre.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 50:28

Ugh.

audioMaraEller11757692472 50:29

Um, I have read Outlander and a

audioStephCrowder21757692472 50:32

I have not read that.

audioMaraEller11757692472 50:34

well, the first two I, I, I really, really enjoyed. but yeah, they get kind of steamy, so, you know, judge for yourself on the, on the steam rating, whatever you're comfortable with.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 50:45

Yeah.

audioMaraEller11757692472 50:46

Well, thank you. We'll definitely have to check those two out. They sound like a lot of fun.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 50:49

Yeah. Absolutely.

audioMaraEller11757692472 50:51

Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your sales wisdom. I know that listeners will benefit from that immensely. And just remember that there's a sales coach out there with a unicorn that says, D Lulu, who is cheering for you and reminding you to be delusional which again, doesn't mean unrealistic.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 51:15

Exactly.

audioMaraEller11757692472 51:16

It means it's going to feel delusional because you're gonna believe so strongly in it, and you're gonna be overcoming that constant self doubt that it might feel delusional. But when it feels that way, that probably means you're just actually believing in yourself fully.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 51:32

Exactly, yes. And if anyone listening happens to be on Instagram, I'm at, Hey, Steph Crowder, HEY, then Steph Crowder, please drop me a note. Let us know that you liked the episode. I would love to hear from you. And then I also always like to share, just in case I think for writers may really appreciate this, I have a free resource that helps you plan out your week. If you are somebody who is fitting in a lot of different things, you're working, you're writing, maybe you're also consider yourself, especially if you consider yourself entrepreneurial. I have a free guide called the 15 Minute Planner Method that helps you plan your whole week, kind of optimized in a way for, optimized in a way that actually helps you get the important stuff done, and it takes you just 15 minutes to sit down and plan it. So that's at steph crowder.com/plan, and that's totally free.

audioMaraEller11757692472 52:18

Awesome. I'll add that to the short as well. And if you are looking for a business coach or are convinced to try one after this conversation, I highly recommend Steph. So.

audioStephCrowder21757692472 52:29

Thanks, Mara.

audioMaraEller11757692472 52:30

Thanks again for coming on today.

video1757692472 52:31

Thank

audioStephCrowder21757692472 52:32

you for having me. This was so fun.

52:34

I think one of the biggest takeaways from this conversation is that sales is not something extra or separate from writing something you tack on after the real work is done. It's actually part of what great writing already is. If you think of it like a Venn diagram, The overlap between great writing and great sales is pretty significant. both ask us to pay close attention to what it means to be human, to understand desire, fear, tension, longing to step outside of ourselves and into the inner world of someone else To figure out what they need and then to respond at its best. Sales isn't manipulation or performance or self-promotion. It's connection and it isn't something you think about only after you've written your book. It's something that should shape the writing itself. It starts with asking, how do I understand my reader more deeply? How do I tell the truth more clearly? How do I create something they actually want to spend their time with? How do I help them see that this is worth their time? Those are the questions that will make your writing stronger, and they're the same questions that will help you sell your writing. When you bake the marketing into the process, by the time you've finished a piece of writing, you're not trying to convince someone to read it. You're simply making them aware of something you already know is gonna change their life. And then at that point it becomes a question of courage, because if your work really can impact someone, then keeping it to yourself isn't humility. It's actually selfish. Remember, the purpose of writing is to communicate, to connect, to reach across time and space, and form a link between writer and reader that transforms them both. In that sense, the act of writing is not actually complete until you get it into the hands of your readers. I hope this helps you reframe selling as a natural, generous part of the writing life and to embrace the necessity of talking about your writing. of engaging last act of vulnerability, the culmination, even of the vulnerability that's been required throughout the writing process of. Putting it out there for someone to find and saying, here, I made this. I made this for you. I believe in it. I think it's good, and I think it can help. Truly, there is nothing more courageous and there is nothing more generous and in my humble opinion. There is nothing more fulfilling. May you find that clarity and courage. To not only write with conviction, but share your writing with that same conviction so it can get out there and change the world. That's it for today's episode. If you've been enjoying the podcast, you can show your support by leaving a review by sharing it with a friend. I will be back next Wednesday to take you deeper into the transformative power of writing. Until then, remember, words are more than ink on a page. They are a path to wholeness.