The Soul and Science of Great Writing with Mara Eller

Unlock Your Writing Superpower Using the Enneagram with Christa Hardin (Ep. 16)

• Mara Eller • Season 1 • Episode 16

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What if the key to releasing your best writing isn’t more discipline, time, or expertise—but deeper self-understanding?

In this episode, I sit down with Christa Hardin—author, marriage coach, and Enneagram expert—to explore how the Enneagram functions as a powerful tool to help you write with more clarity, confidence, and impact.

We dive into the surprising truth that your greatest writing strength is often the very thing that holds you back—and how understanding your patterns can help you connect more powerfully with both your creativity and your reader.

Whether you already know your type or are completely new to the Enneagram, this conversation offers practical insights for every kind of writer. We cover:

  • Why your writing struggles are often tied to your strengths
  • The 3 core instincts (self-preservation, sexual/creative, and social) and how they impact your writing process
  • How each Enneagram type approaches writing differently (and what helps them most)
  • Type-specific tips to break through procrastination, perfectionism, and self-doubt

It’s time to learn how to work with your personality instead of fighting it—so you can finally write and share your best work.


About Christa:

As a relationship expert, marriage coach, speaker, and host of the Enneagram & Marriage Podcast, Christa Hardin helps individuals and couples build stronger, more connected lives through personality work, emotional insight, and practical tools rooted in modern psychology. Her new book The Three Desires comes out Spring ‘27 focusing on using the Enneagram instincts as powerful tools in relationship and personal growth. Follow her on Instagram @enneagramandmarriage to join her 40k+ community. 


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Welcome to the Soul and Science of Great Writing, where the mastery of craft meets the mystery of creation. I'm your host, Mara Eller, freelance editor, book coach, and writing teacher with over 16 years of experience. I'm obsessed with the transformative power of words and with understanding what makes writing truly exceptional. Not just to help my clients, but to grow my own craft too. So what makes writing truly great? Is it the spark of inspiration, the unique voice, the intangible soul that breathes life into words? Or is it the careful structure, repeatable strategies, and attention to detail that turn an idea into something readers can't put down? In truth, it's both. The Soul and Science of Great Writing brings creativity and craft together, exploring the soul and the science with equal parts awe and analysis. Today, I'm joined by Krista Harden, an author, marriage coach, and Enneagram expert, to explore how your Enneagram type influences your writing, specifically the superpower it gives you and the related blind spot that can sabotage your work. If you're new to the Enneagram, it's a personality framework that helps you understand your core motivations, fears, and patterns. Basically, why you think, feel, and act the way you do. And those patterns show up everywhere, including in our writing, from why we might struggle to make time to write, to what we're willing to say on the page, and how we approach editing. This kind of awareness helps us both get the writing done and make what we write even more impactful. This is a rich conversation full of practical insights, and you don't need to know your type to benefit, though you may want to find out by the end. Let's dive in.

Mara

Welcome to the Soul and Science of Great Writing, Krista. It's so great to have you here.

Christa

Mara, it is such a joy to be here with you. I am so honored by your invitation. I am super thankful to get to talk about one of our mutually favorite topics, writing.

Mara

Tell us a little bit more about what you do, and what your work is like, and how you use the Enneagram in that?

Christa

Thank you. Yes, I talk to people about their relationships. I have a master's in clinical psychology, and I own a business called Reflections Counseling and Coaching locally, where myself and mental health therapists and coaches on my team help people across our community with Christian counseling and coaching, but also they don't have to be of any faith background to come. I particularly enjoy this branch of my work called the Enneagram and Marriage, and so some of you might have even heard of the Enneagram before. It's a personality typing system with nine types, and it, it really nuances my relationship work with my couples and individuals to help us to see, yes, there's great general tips for everybody, but when we start to learn who we uniquely are, our tips get more nuanced and more accurate for how we can change and shift and grow behaviorally as well as even in the depths of our souls. So I was really excited we're talking about the soul and science of writing today.

Mara

Yes. the Enneagram has been fascinating to me since I found it, uh, probably 15 years ago or so, and I geek out on personality stuff. I also love the Myers-Briggs system, but the Enneagram Those are the two that I have found most useful, and for me, that, that usefulness comes through the depth and nuance that they provide when you get deep into them. So I love to go deep. Uh, Enneagram 4 quality, as we'll discuss today. for anyone who's listening who is new to the Enneagram or doesn't know their type, Where would you recommend that they start if they want to try to figure out their type or just- learn more?'Cause we're gonna be going into some of the nuance today. so if, someone wants to start at the beginning, what would you recommend?

Christa

I really like to take them into the space of learning how to figure out their type first. It's helpful to review a quiz, or for some of us, we even prefer just to read about the nine types, then you can dive in a little more. And on my website, Enneagram in Marriage, you certainly don't have to be married to partake of all of the free resources I have on the Free Resources page, and including, uh, a typing guide I have there. But I also have a quiz there as well on the same freebies page, and it's really fun to look to see what type am I and what type is my partner, if you're taking it with a partner. I Sometimes I've even had a mutual friend of ours, Ariel Curry, take that quiz or take a quiz and talk to me about her and her writing partner's Enneagram types. So it's a really fun space to investigate what each of our types are, whether we do it by looking and reading, as I mentioned, or doing so on truity.com, which is another place, or taking my quiz for couples or partners, or Truity, T-R-U-I-T-Y,.com has an Enneagram test where you can see not only your top choice of your type, just the one that shows up most for you out of the nine types, but they have a little pie chart that also shows you where the other eight fall for you. So in writing, it can be not only most beneficial to know what is my sweet spot and what is my strength, but also what are the areas I may need to look at more. So we can talk about that as we go along, but just keep in mind that the goal isn't for us to just have one type. The goal is to know what is our lead type, our strength, and what are our areas for growth. So we can see that across many different ways with the Enneagram. As you know, and y- I know Myers-Briggs is similar, there's a lot of different ways you can use these measures, and any one of them can help your writing to become a lot better.

Mara

Yeah. Okay, I love a lot of what you brought up there. First of all, Ariel's been on twice before, so our dedicated listeners might be familiar with her. and she's a Type 9, which we'll talk more about. I love how Enneagram is very growth oriented, that each type, if you start digging into the literature, you know, talks about different levels of health, and maturity is one of the ways I think about it. and it helps you recognize patterns that you fall into when you're Not as healthy and, like, things to sort of aspire to, to, like, bring out the best of your type. But then as you mentioned, really the goal is to incorporate the strengths of all the types. And then there's this is where it can get complicated. If you're new to the Enneagram, you know, just kind of tune this part out for now. But there's wings and arrows, and so basically each number, there's nine numbers, they're arranged in a circle, if you look at the little chart that comes up for it, it shows arrows going to other numbers. So each type has these strong connections to four other numbers. So really, this is one of the things I wanted to mention is, as you're listening today, don't just listen for your type or only the one that you think you might be, but really listen to all of them because no matter which number you are as your primary type, you have connections or, I'm not sure what the right word is there, but, like, you, you access, you have access to, and probably do already access at least four other numbers, and the goal is to incorporate all nine.

Christa

Oh, so well said, Mara. I love that you have such a fluidity with the Enneagram system because you're right. The writers themselves, you guys listening might say,"I get stuck in my personality type." And you're just reminding them as you listen today to these types, you might find a new kickstart from a type surrounding you called your wing, et cetera. So I love that you brought that out. And for the quick fact for the listeners, the wing would be the easiest catch-all right here. It would be just the, numbers we're gonna talk about, numbers one through nine, the numbers right around yours. So if you're a six, it would be, your wings would be five and seven. So you could learn from fives and sevens about writing tips for you. Or if you're a nine, it's gonna be back to one, and then also eight. So yeah. Oh my gosh, thank you for bringing that up.

Mara

Yeah. I love that sort of dynamic aspect of the system so yeah, definitely listen to all of the tips because there are a lot of commonalities that you might, that you may find very resonant and, like you said, Kristen, very helpful. but before we dive into those, I know that you are also a writer you have a wonderful book, The Enneagram in Marriage, that came out a few years ago now. But, tell us A little bit about your process for writing that book. Like, how did you approach it? What were your biggest struggles, and what was the most fun? So Krista is a Enneagram 7, which is often called the, enthusiast, known for being fun-loving. So where did you find fun in the process, and where did you struggle?

Christa

That's a great question. I really loved writing for the sake of information sharing. Sevens love hacking systems because we are constantly thinking and rewiring and trying to find the positive loop in everything. So It was neat to learn the nine types and then to think about them for my couples work I'd been doing for nearing two decades. And I just loved thinking about how, yes, I'd written some books that were self-published before that for my clients. I had never tried to reach out for a publisher before because I was raising littles and I was just very busy with a part-time practice and my kids and homeschooling them. And so then I decided, you know, this is such a great system for individuals, but we can also make it great for couples because I was starting to incorporate it in my work slowly but surely after I learned the system. And when I got to the point of realizing that the Enneagram helped couples to get that nuance in a much more elegant way than some of the other personality assessments I'd given years before as a master's level psychologist, when I would give a whole battery of psychological tests, even just knowing one person's Enneagram type could take us so much farther. It just really was a no-brainer to get materials out about it. So I started with an Enneagram and Marriage Instagram page. Then I moved to the Enneagram and Marriage podcast, and then I moved into writing the book because I saw people starting to write about the Enneagram and marriage and something that's, you know, we're only gonna talk about some of the parts of each type today. But part of the 7 is it's known as an assertive type. And so what I noticed as I began to assert myself out in the world was that a lot of people were writing about Enneagram and marriage who didn't necessarily have any training in marriage formally. And so I wanted to make sure that people had a great marriage of marriage research and Enneagram, and it really fueled me, even as a 7, to take a topic that I saw, oh my gosh, this could be boring because I don't like that as an enthusiastic person. I, I want new and fun and creative, But I was like, I think it would be a fun challenge to make this material fresh and new and, like I said, even married with good marriage research that already exists. And that assertive part of me said, even though other people have already done it, I bet you could make it better just for the sake of your training and all the couples who have so painstakingly sat with you across years to do this work with you. So I did it for them, sat through the boring, which was the hard part, to answer that part of your question, The tedious, you know, going through all 45 pairings and allowing for each one to have its own treatment plan, you know, that was painstaking. And especially'cause I had already made pairing booklets for each type, but I wanted to do this also new and fresh. So just using my brain till it hurt was the hard part, but also knowing that I had produced something new and fresh and creative was the fun part. And I am a writer through and through like you, so it was never a problem to write, but to get into the nuance, detail, editing pieces really was challenging for me. So we'll talk about that when we get to tips for type seven of how did I do that. But it is hard to finish things as a seven and do that. So that was tricky, but I always try to do that. I know you probably, listener, whatever your weakness is of your type, you've conquered it many times, right? Like, I've gone through grad school and accomplished many things, but it doesn't mean it's not hard every single time I do it. Is that relatable for you as well?

Mara

definitely. I mean, I think finishing is often hard for fours as well, which is what I am. maybe for some different reasons, but also hard. sevens and fours both have lots of ideas you know, we're getting ahead of ourselves, but it's okay. Fours, sevens, and ones are, idealists,

Christa

Mm.

Mara

that we have these strong visions of what the world could be like or should be like, and how it could be better.

Christa

Mm-hmm.

Mara

And, I think that's very motivating for us. But then we also struggle in a couple of ways because, idealizing is sort of by definition about ideas, and then the reality, like making it into a reality, is a lot more challenging. And the reality is never as great as our vision.

Christa

for

Mara

so there's always this disappointment and frustration. At least I'll speak for myself, but, like, that's definitely something that I struggle with where I'm like,"This is not as good as what I was wanting it to be," and

Christa

same

Mara

very fun.

Christa

where I'm like,"Oh no, I can't do unlimited?" You know? And it's like, nope, I can't. And so I, I love that you named that. There's gonna be little losses for every one of our writing moments, but it doesn't mean we don't still want to carry them forward with fresh visions and do our best because, yeah, there's so much we can still contribute despite us knowing these hard parts exist

Mara

So, um, a, a friend of mine who will be joining us on the podcast at some point, Meredith Hite Estevez, she's another four. and she always talks about this story that Ann Patchett, I don't know what number she is, author Ann Patchett, fiction writer mostly, she shares in her actually non-fiction book of essays about writing, She uses the analogy of our ideas being like this beautiful butterfly flying around, and in order to actually make it into a book or a story or, you know, any piece of art, we have to take that beautiful butterfly and pin it to the board, and essentially kill it,

Christa

Wow.

Mara

and it's still there. It's still beautiful, but it's not as beautiful as it was before we did that. And it's kind of

Christa

That's a great analogy. I've never heard that story.

Mara

It's kind of violent, you know, but I think it's powerful because it's like, well, you can either leave it flying around and never get to share it with anyone,

Christa

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mara

or you just have to, like, face that loss.

Christa

Yeah. And I think when you worked with... When you work with an editor that's not yourself, I think there's even more of a death in that way, that there's so much lost along the route. And what's so interesting is my friend told me she read one of my earlier books, It was a really simple life coaching book, and she goes,"Wow, I just heard you. I heard your fun seven in this so much." And I was, like, interested that she's a five, for those who know the introvert researcher observer, and she's like,"I just... Wow, I just... It was a totally different side of you." And I thought, wow, we even merge with our editors. So it was, it's... Yeah, I love your thought there, that it's gonna be different. Um, and I think that people can even meet us differently on the page, differently, I mean, maybe better when we have more hands in the book. I really do believe that. that my book was better for having more hands in it. But I want to encourage anyone who is writing, like a self-published book, that you still have amazing gifts to offer, and your best and brightest gifts may be seen even more. Mm.

Mara

Yeah. Okay, so many great things going on there. I wanna make sure I ask my question that I love to ask everyone at the beginning, towards the beginning of an interview, which is, do you see yourself falling more onto the soul side when it comes to writing or the science side? Kind of as far as your approach, and you can define those terms however you'd like.

Christa

It's such a fun question. I love that you ask this. I- Have both sides going on very much, and I have a very slow trajectory taking me toward the soul side more. In my personal writing, which I do probably three times a week for the last 20 years, I write very soulfully. For my audience, I write more scientifically and bubbly and in order to drive them forward on goals. But what I like to do is bring both together into any books I produce, and I think that when my friend said she heard me, I think she heard a little bit more of my soul in some of the books that I just threw out there myself as, hey, these are going for my clients. I wanna make sure they have a rubric. I'm just, like, a little more vulnerable. And I think that oddly enough, I'm trying to bring soulful pieces into my writing in the world with editors, but when you have an editor, there's such a, a beauty to it, as I said, but a coldness that a lot of what you thought was your best soul work gets left behind. So I'm finding an arc that may return me to even eventually self-publish, where I get to be more soulful, or meeting with an editor who just wholly gets my full vision. I'm gonna wait to see how it goes with this next book because I have a book coming out February 2nd

Mara

Oh, I had no idea.

Christa

Yeah. I'm so excited about it.

Mara

Okay, so what was it called?

Christa

The Three Desires. It's about the three instincts.

Mara

Oh my goodness, so fun,'cause that was something I wanted to talk about today. So yes, tell us more please.

Christa

So in my next book, I do have some soulful places, and I also have some science, So I see myself testing out my new publisher to see how they respond to that, and she's mid-edits right now, so I don't know where we're gonna land with that. I don't know what's gonna be left of Krista on the page, but I know that as I get more opportunities to write, I would like to see more, not less of the soul work. And I guess to just quickly d- I think we all know what we mean when we say science. Like, there's facts and there's observable realities and there's ways that we can get tips, and

Mara

like the structure, in your case, the structure of the Enneagram, there's like the science behind this, or geometry of the,

Christa

Yes. Mm-hmm, these predictable patterns of the nine types. And then when we get to the soul, we get to the spaces of bearing witness together, of just being stuck sometimes and naming that we're stuck and that we're human, naming parts of us that are spiritual and allowing for even greater nuance than any system of personality could give you. So I'm bringing some of that into my book, The Three Desires, but I really made The Three Desires to be a book about three parts of the Enneagram, the self, pres, sexual, and social, which we'll talk a little bit about at the end today, that are very deep but important for some scientific purposes too in marriage. So I do feel like there's a lot of science. There's checklists. There's places for people to grow tangibly together as a couple. So yeah, you'll see my fiction writing and soulful writing coming out later in my life.

Mara

Oh, very exciting. I didn't know there was fiction on the table for you as well.

Christa

Yes. I have a... I already have written a middle grade reader's novel, um, that is about a child with a mom with schizophrenia, which was my story. And then

Mara

what is that title? I'm gonna put all these things in the

Christa

are so sweet. That one is not even out, so y- uh, y- yeah, that's called Delaney Explained, and that is about a little girl who's on a journey of finding acceptance in her own self while she walks through her mother's troubling mental health break.

Mara

well, we'll have to talk later'cause I wanna figure out how to get that out, because I'm like,"I wanna share that with my children." I have a middle grade novel that's I need to edit it. The first draft has been completed, but I just realized, I think it's actually not completed. I think the story's not quite done anyway, so has a good bit of work to do. But

Christa

I wanna

Mara

I'm like,"I need to get it done before my children are too old to enjoy it."

Christa

Yeah. I, um, I finally shared mine with my son this year. I never had my daughters read it, and I just think it was probably me feeling like this was a heavy burden to place on them, but he was about 13 or so, and I, I shared it with him, and he's like,"I loved it, but it was really, like, really sad." And I was like,"Oh, I'm sorry," like and it was the light version. So yeah.

Mara

Oh, and in case anyone's wondering, middle grade means it's for slightly younger children than young adult. So it's, like, elementary age, like, upper elementary age children, typically.

Christa

Yes.

Mara

all right. Well, I wonder if we should just dive into the instincts. Since you already brought that up, Listeners might be wondering what that is, and then maybe we could, we'll hit the nine types afterwards. okay, so tell us, I'm somewhat familiar with them, but the idea is that there's nine types, so nine numbers. But then each number also has the possibility of these three instincts, which everyone has all three, but there's one that's gonna be most dominant. And then that sort of flavors how each number is gonna be expressed. So you might have two fours, but with different instincts, they could seem really different.

Christa

Mm. That is so well said, and I think that if somebody is confused at all right now because you don't know the nine types or you're just like,"I'm a little rusty on them", you can even look at these three instincts that we're naming as individual in and of themselves. My

Mara

You don't even have to think about them overlaid with the numbers.

Christa

Enneagram. It is part of the Enneagram though. So we're talking about Enneagram with writing, but it's, it's a part that is, there's only three of them. It's very easy to introduce to your friends that are writers. It's, it's gonna be the topic of my next book. I'm calling them the desires there. We're in a marriage space. But these instincts or desires are part of, like you said, Mara, every human experience. But in writing they show up, and if you have a good balance of all three, you're going to go farther with your writing. And so would it be okay if I went over the three right

Mara

Yeah, that'd be great.

Christa

Okay, so the self-preservation instinct I think of as a bottom of the mountain. If you think of, uh, a mountain as the analogy here, even like Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs or any of the Erik Erikson stages, just always there's a foundational level where we're growing as a person with the most basic needs, and those are part of writer's disciplines. You've probably heard of books like The 5 AM Club, and heard many writers over the years say,"Go to bed early, get up early, find the hour or two where you can be at peace and write before everyone else." And this is part of finding your way into the self-preserving instinct, which is, again, essential for all writers. And you're going to nuance it. I remember Agatha Christie reading about how she had to find time around kids for writing. But what it will be for you will be the time of day when you know your nervous system is in good shape. So some of us it's,"Wow, I take an afternoon rest, and then I allow for this revival, and now it's time for me to get out there and write." interestingly, the self-preserving instinct, though, isn't just about rest and nervous system finding peace. It's also about clearing your mind in terms of any kinds of grief or sorrows that you have that might be unhealthily contributing. So it could be that you want to write, but you're dealing with something that you're really upset with, and so your body, that basic foundational level, may need you to move through something first. So just to acknowledge myself in the writing, this self-preserving says,"I am part of this process, so if I need to cry or to go make amends with somebody, or perhaps I need to take some time to pray." Sometimes it's going to be a need for fitness because I don't have enough dopamine, and this is the part of my book where I wanna get really people excited. So maybe a quick jog or a seven-minute workout is part of your self-preserving. But this whole instinct is based around you feeling safe and healthy enough to write. It doesn't mean you have to be perfectly healthy or you can't have carpal tunnel, you know, all the things. We're just humans, we're in bodies. They're gonna fail sometimes. But it does mean that you're as rested and alert as possible, and finding your way there is you locking into the self-preserving instinct in your best way. So just be thinking right now,"What is my best way to get to the self-preserving instinct?" And maybe, Mara, you can tell us what yours is when you think about those things. What helps you to feel good as a person before you write?

Mara

Yeah. so just to give a little more context here or something we all have all three, but we each tend to have one that's more dominant. And so I think I'm most dominant in the self-preservation instinct. I know the answer to this is no, but that doesn't mean that I'm like the least evolved because it's the most basic part of

Christa

No. Yeah. Not at all. It just means you care deeply about those things, that you know those are essential.

Mara

Yeah. one thing that I don't think you mentioned that is important for me is, uh, my physical space. So I definitely need... You know, this might be sort of overlapping with the four, but I need some beauty or at least not ugliness,

Christa

Yeah.

Mara

you

Christa

Yeah.

Mara

Um- Which doesn't mean perfectly organized necessarily, but, you know, like my office currently is in my bedroom because that's the place where I can close the door in my house if my children are home.

Christa

Yeah.

Mara

Goal is to have an office not in my bedroom. But, you know, I can make make the bed, and like I have a, a window, and I, I've started working on putting plants outside the window so I get to look at flowers, you know, as I'm at my computer. And, definitely physical activity I've learned is very important. as you said, like the dopamine. But a sense of spaciousness is something that's important. sort of a, a temporal, like time, but also, emotional spaciousness that like there is room for me to explore and be creative versus just task oriented.

Christa

Mm. Wow, I love that, and it's so interesting. If we get into the nitty-gritty nuance of this instinct, you named the piece I didn't mention, like you said, and that is the need for home security and beauty. And so that can feel different for everybody, and you really specifically said the beauty part means so much to you. And I love that you named that'cause I bet you a lot of your listeners share that, that they wanna write in beautiful spaces, and that is part of the self-preserving instinct on my chart in my book. And also, um, the part that neither of us mentioned just briefly is feeling safe in the way of, like, I have time to write where maybe I know I'm not gonna be interrupted. maybe it's I go to Starbucks and I put my AirPods in. Maybe I have told my family, like,"Please give me these hours." But it's, a sense of I'm not gonna be overtaken when I'm in my writing because writing is a vulnerable place, so it's protecting the space and the time.

Mara

Yeah, yeah. Okay. I could talk about all of these for so long, but let's, keep going because we also wanna make sure we can hit on the nine types and tips for those. So it sounds like a tip, especially for someone who identifies as a self-preserving type, but just for anyone, is, noticing what makes you feel safe maybe, what makes you have that sense of security, experimenting with the environment, rituals that can kind of help prepare you, Somatically, you know, whether it's going for a walk first or listening to certain music or, you know, lighting a candle. Seems like all those kinds of things could be really helpful, and everyone's a little bit different, so experiment and find a rhythm, a routine, a, a ritual that works for you to help create that sense of security.

Christa

I love that takeaway. That's beautiful. The next one is the sexual instinct, and in this way I call it the creating instinct because we're not talking about marriage. And I know some of the Enneagram baseline writers would say,"Don't forget it is the sexual instinct," but when they mean sexual, they mean don't shy away from the fact that, you know, sexuality is part of the human experience. And so I think that for writer's purpose, it can be adapted easily and, and like say we're talking about kids and their friends or something, it's not always going to need to be labeled sexual. But I want people to properly label it if they're working in a marriage setting because the term creative isn't the full name for this instinct. But what I'd love for you to take from it here is that when you're in that creating space, there's this lie that writers tell themselves that there's nothing new that I could ever say or do. And although there's so many ideas that have already been put to pen, your brain, your mind, and your experiences have never come before. So allowing for that truth to sit alongside any doubts you might have about yourself is very important, even if it means you write it out in cursive, which is good for the brain to take some time to actually write things out with your hand, pen and paper, not even your computer. But also even cursive even better. My husband's in medical field and told me that's even way better for our brains to do it that way. Um, it just allows us to take some time to recognize I have great things to share that nobody else can share, and it allows you to take some risks in your writing. So you heard me say I wrote a book about a child where- Their parent had schizophrenia. And I had to rise up against critics that said,"Hey, this book is too much", right? Like, I can look at that but also say,"But how can I make my book still new and creative because this book needs to get out there." This is a story that was real, and a lot of kids have parents with mental health issues. And there's a s- a hope piece to this story and, and it's fighting against whether it be these outer critics or inner critics, probably both, that say,"I don't see a place for your story." And learning how can I get my story out there still even against the critics, but in a way that is palatable and helpful. Because we all know those critics are necessary too to say,"Well, maybe it was this. Maybe it was l- too long of chapters. Maybe you delved too deep into this moment that is not appropriate for that age range." But allow yourself to sit with bringing out something a little bit audacious in your writing, a little bit new. It doesn't have to be risqué or bordering any vices or passions that are unhealthy. What I really mean there is bringing yourself to the table and being willing to listen to others and how they wanna help shape you to get your real sense of voice out. But I'll go back to my book, Enneagram in Marriage, that I worked with an amazing editor who, although I didn't get to bring my full self, my full creative self, let's say the creator instinct here, I was able to work with people who said,"There's a lot of you still in this book, but we just made it more helpful and palatable to bring to an audience who can meet you there." So I'll just lastly say about this instinct, you don't wanna be so divergent that nobody can relate. You wanna, really be able to bring yourself to the table and your soul to the table and something new and fun and creative or deep and creative but without losing the other. And that can happen when we're too into that sexual or creative instinct where we could lose ourselves in it, and then lose the whole through line, and lose the whole important outline, even the s- the story arc that's important. so just keep remembering to be creative but not losing the logic. And when we talk about the last instinct, we'll get into w- who you're writing for and how to connect with them. But I hope that's helpful

Mara

Yeah.

Christa

about

Mara

Well, at the risk of getting into who you're writing for,'cause I was thinking, Another name that I've heard for the sexual instinct is one-to-one

Christa

that.

Mara

because the next one will be social, which is sort of one-to-many. Um, and so one-to-one meaning, like, a one-on-one sort of intensity of connection, which of course can go to the sexual connection, but can also be an intense one-on-one emotional connection. And I've also heard it called, not as formally, but a, a procreative, posture where, sex brings forth children in an, in a way then from a cr- creative, artistic perspective, you know, we are bringing forth our creations. And so, uh, tell me if this fits, but, I think it's Meredith Heidestevez again who talk-'cause she's sexual four, so she talks about, like, this desire to, bring forth something and, like, give it to someone, that, like, she really loves doing workshops because she gets to, she gets to see her creation, like, meet another person. I wonder if another tip might be to try to get as clear as you can on your one ideal reader so that it can really feel like a one-to-one connection between you and your reader versus, Oh, I'm writing to these masses,"

Christa

Mm-hmm.

Mara

less motivating or meaningful.

Christa

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That is absolutely true, and yet we wanna bring that, if we're gonna have a delineation into the social instinct, because what I was really blessed by was when Russ Hudson, who really gave us these instincts and harmony groups and all these other things in the Enneagram, he spent two different podcast sessions with me talking about how it's not a real one-to-one instinct. That's social. And that was something I was wrong on. Um, but he really talked about how- It is the creator part of Meredith or any of us that is her sexual instinct, and that's probably her lead for that reason, is she loves to create and bring forth. And I know she's so great with musicality as well. And so I think that's what we really need to remember, is if we're in that place, it's gotta be about creating something. And together is always a great goal because we're always better together. But when we move now into the third area, the social instinct, this is where I used to think of the social instinct as this is cool'cause it's more spread out, and then the sexual instinct is more hot. And Russ Hudson was helping me to say,"If you're doing the social instinct cool, you're doing it wrong." Because the goal in the social instinct is to go deep also socially with whether it's your spouse, your writing partner, your reader, or a lot of people in your workshop. Social instinct is bringing our work to others and remembering that we have gifts that no one else has, right? Like we said in the sexual instinct or the creative instinct. But now we're bringing them to people, and we're sharing in their ideas, and we're benefiting from their gifts, and we're also sharing ours with other people as well. And we wanna do so with, appropriate social order. Because people have certain norms and nuances that we like to receive information, and we don't like somebody to just throw a book at our head, right? Or say,"You have to read my book. I'm locking you in this room." We wanna be invitive. We wanna help people to wanna turn the page, and we have to know our reader in order to do that. So that social instinct is going to be about knowing who your reader is, who you're writing for, and keeping them in mind so you don't lose yourself in those other things we talked about. So it could be like,"Oh, yeah, I'm having so much fun in my self-preserving. I'm feeling so safe. I'm gonna play it really safe here and just do some charts, and I'm feeling really good in my creator element, and I'm gonna write something that I wanna read." Yes, those are all great, but who are you actually writing for? Because if you're the only reader, you only need the one copy, and you don't even need to get it out. But you're also, as my editors helped me to see- At Baker Books, and now I'm working with Whitaker House, we are writing for a reader. So we do wanna be more palatable. And when there's more eyes on it, whether we're hiring Ariel Curry, who I know we both love, or you as our writing coach or editor, we really do better when we bring some social into the book. So I really like that also, because even my self-published books, they were good, but they just didn't rise as high because I didn't have anybody else helping me along. So that's my last tip is don't be afraid. Or I'll say do it scared if you are afraid to bring your book out, because it will get better and it will get into more hands the more you let other people help you along. But don't lose yourself in other people's opinions either, as we said earlier.

Mara

Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. I mean, the, there's so much here about balance, which is, I think, important for the Enneagram, but also life, right? That you wanna... It's all about finding a balance between all of these things, which Ends up being a good segue into the way I wanted to approach talking about each of the nine types. So of the things I love about the Enneagram is how it names a strength for each type that also can become a blind spot or a weakness, you know, if it's misused or not used in a healthy way or, uh, something that you're not aware of, then it can become destructive. But it's kind of like two sides of the same coin and you could phrase it the other way, that it, the weakness is also your greatest strength if you can use it well. So I'd love to talk about what we might call a superpower for each of the nine types specifically when it comes to writing, and then, maybe a pitfall that would be good to watch out for, and then of course, any tips that we could offer. And we have to go a little bit rapid fire.

Christa

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's okay.

Mara

a- oh, and I thought it might be fun, I can share my thoughts, and then you can tell me if I'm wrong or right. So make it like a game,

Christa

Okay. Well, yeah. Do you wanna start? can,

Mara

okay. So each type has, like, a nickname. It has a few nicknames, but I'll just name one of the nicknames that I'm familiar with, if I can remember them, and you can expand for us. And remember, listeners, pay attention to all of them, because you can access all of these things, all of these strengths and pitfalls.

Christa

other way.

Mara

so one, often called the perfectionist, has high standards. Uh, I would think they'd be really good at attention to detail, very organized. And then, of course, the pitfall is a little obvious, that they could fall into the trap of perfectionism, where it's never good enough, and they're endlessly tweaking and it, you know, never releasing it because it's never quite perfect.

Christa

Mm, mm-hmm. Yep, I-- you've nailed it, and I would just add that sometimes because there's such fast movers in the world, that coming back to it is really good, too. If, if you're like,"I worked on that, and I... it's already perfect,"'cause ones can do that, too. To go,"Oh, I'm coming back again, and I'm gonna look at it, and I'm gonna stay with it longer." Um, ones often g- their inner critic will, yeah, m-run them along like,"Better not do this book. It's not worth it." And just to kinda sit with it and be with it, and you have so much greatness to share. So stay with it, and, um, know that you're worth it to stay with, and, um, you're also wor-worthy to sit for longer with it, even if you have to just do short segments.

Mara

inner critic, because that's a huge one that I think is One of the things that ones struggle with the most, from what I hear, is that that inner critic is worse than any real critic could ever be, which can become paralyzing. It's just, like,

Christa

Mm,

Mara

you know, so scary to try to live up to that standard, and just to then be kind and compassionate and, remind yourself that, you can't help anyone, you can't make any impact if you don't ever release it,

Christa

true. So

Mara

Yeah. Which, especially if you have a two wing,

Christa

Mm.

Mara

you want to help people, you want to make the world a better place. So twos, often called the helper, I would think they would tend to be really good at figuring out what other people need. Like, maybe especially if their social instinct, if I, like, have a, a good read on, like, what would actually help other people, and so they would tend to be very reader focused. but then they might struggle to make time to write because that feels too selfish,'cause they're so other focused and, um, they also might be worried about offending others.

Christa

Yes. And as much as they have such a beautiful desire to bless the heart of their reader, sharing some of their stories with humility about their journey of growth is such a beautiful arc for a two, because they struggle sometimes with not the inner critic in the same way the one does, but a bit of pride, like,"I'm God's right hand, and so I need to get my words out to others." But people don't hear you unless you're vulnerable. So being able to share,"This is where I've been," is so good. And then twos get all the heart, like, readers back just the way they wanted when they're vulnerable. So it really works out to their benefit and their readers' benefit.

Mara

Yeah. Okay. So I would think that would also be a great tip for a lot of threes who might struggle to be vulnerable and authentic. Three is often called the achiever, very goal-oriented. I would guess they'd probably be very disciplined, and, like, not afraid of the public facing parts maybe that, you know, writers having to show up and promote their work.

Christa

Mm-hmm.

Mara

struggle to share some of the harder things and be vulnerable.

Christa

So true. Our twos, threes, and fours can struggle with,"Let me show everyone the, the heart underneath," because there might be a perception,"If I'm authentic, I won't be seen as glorious," that a three wants to be seen as, and deserves to be seen as. But they don't realize that when we show our authenticity, our readers are attaching to us all the more. So let your nuance show. Don't just mask to other people and what you've seen other great writers do. That is always a first go-to for threes, and they're very successful writers, and sometimes obviously New York Times bestsellers. But they also, uh, when they get to do more deep, soulful work, they bring something of themselves to the work, and I think it really inspires people in a deeper way. You might not get as many, but you will be hitting hearts on a deeper level. So that's something to sit with.

Mara

Hmm. Okay, so fours I would think wouldn't have that much of a struggle in that area, but you, you kind of mentioned that they do, so I don't... Maybe you can clarify that for us. But I was thinking that fours, I'm forgetting what they're even nicknamed. Y- I am one, but um, you can tell us. But they would tend to have a lot of depth and passion and, like, emotional truth in their writing. but I know from experience, a common pitfall is waiting for inspiration and not wanting to create those routines that, y- you know, not being consistent

Christa

Hmm. Mm-hmm. Definitely. There's so many for each of these that we're touching on, but for fours, I think that when they miss other people, it's because, like you said, they didn't get out there and do it. They're doing inhibited. So just the discipline of writing, getting to the page, having some really good accountability for deadlines, having a friend with them or to call them, encourage them can help a four because they're still heart types. They want to be attached to other people at the end of the day. And even though fours are more complex than the other two heart types in that they need some withdrawing space as well, they do need to come back to the reader, to people out of the place of melancholy that says,"My words might not be good enough, so I can't, you know, stray from what ordinary convention says. In fact, I probably won't do it at all,'cause if I was to do it, I would wanna be unique. But then again, will anyone like me if I actually put myself out there? And do I actually have enough scheduling power to get myself even to the writing?" So there's different strategies for why the fours are struggling with authenticity. Just will others accept me, and will I be able to get out there and do it? But like you said, once they do get to the page, there is a depth that I don't think any other type can hit. So it's a really beautiful space. When we get to read a four's writing, know that it's been hard-fought to get there, and it's gonna be awesome, and usually called the individualist, the artist, the creative. So I love that that's your type.

Mara

Yeah. a-and you were hitting on something that I've definitely encountered. This is sort of aversion of analysis paralysis I think I have a stronger five wing where I want to explore all the possibilities first, and I love to stay in my mind,

Christa

Mm-hmm.

Mara

circling in ideas and possibilities and different ways to do things, and then not actually do anything that can get out into the world to reach another person. So I love that you brought up the importance of, Like for me, it feels important to have someone reading my work, that it helps. It's like, well, why do the really hard work of getting it out of my head If it's just gonna be on a piece of paper or a computer? It's barely out of my head at that point. But if it actually reaches the brain of another person and the heart of another person, then it's worth it.

Christa

Yes. And then letting yourself sit with all the shame that it brings up when somebody corrects, and going,"I can take what's helpful. I can leave behind what isn't." Um, man, that just makes a fours writing even deeper, um, to let others in. And you named a lot of our five work. Our fives are researchers and they are observers. And so you named that they often get stuck in the process of researching what to write about instead of actually just committing. They're another withdrawing type, and they're thinking a lot. So just being ready to say at 10:00 or at 4:00, whatever the time I've set, I'm sticking to that and I'm just going to write at that time, is such a gift to your reader and to yourself because it gets you doing. A s- a quick trick is five-minute timer set and just start writing. That way it's like, okay, I don't want to stay. I don't have enough energy. Fives often lose energy. But even just five minutes a day of writing is something. So just don't ever think that you are starting too small and, you know, everyone has five minutes they can give if writing is truly their passion, even our fives who have to time hoard a bit because they don't always have as much energy.

Mara

Yeah. And so their superpower is probably something about their research ability to be an expert and be So knowledgeable, but then that discipline to say,"Okay, we're turning off research mode for now, and we're gonna go ahead and write with what we already know."

Christa

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mara

can also get into overthinking, they're probably dedicated, conscientious. They're called the loyalist, which can also mean, I think, loyal to their projects. Um, so really committed to, like, get, getting it done, seeing it through, but can have trouble trusting their own authority maybe.

Christa

They can, and they're good researchers too, like fives. So I think sixes can do the work, but they can get lost in I need to be there for my people because they're so people-oriented. So for a six it can be a great reminder to say, I am meeting my people, and maybe this is my livelihood or maybe I'm sharing my gift of wisdom, which is a gift of sixes and a superpower of sixes, that wisdom, with my reader. And so I need to share with my family and my readers and all these people all the wisdom I have, and that's a beautiful gift to give. No, it's not perfect,'cause they do tend toward doubt. yes, people will continue to be able to build on my work. I can't do it all here. But I can offer something unique, and I can offer it in a s- specific timeframe as well. Sixes do very well with planning timeframes. And so once they've talked themselves into,"I'm allowed to take some time to do this and it will bless my people," they do better versus obsessively worrying about taking time away from their people and their comforts and the easy, right? Because they don't wanna get into fear a lot. But your writing is a place of courage for you, so I wanna encourage you to step into that.

Mara

Beautiful. Okay, we talked about sevens a little bit because that's your journey. Enthusiast is the nickname. Um, I would think they would probably be really good at creating a, like, contagious excitement, and just, fun and sort of, like, new ideas, novelty. But as you said, like, can struggle to finish things and maybe struggle to go into emotionally difficult territory.

Christa

Yes. As you heard me say, I'm kind of looking at that arc. How do I bring my soul out? And so it's a half feeling sort of type where we have feelings, but we have them by halves because feelings are very difficult to process. So your writing can help you to bring those to form, but it's also important that you allow other people to look at the work, like I said, to see how much of this needs to go out there. I've come to learn for me as a seven, writing my thoughts in my poetic form or journal form is a great place to start if I have a lot going on internally, and that's almost going back to that self-pres instinct of let's do some of my work before I head onto the page of my reader. And then by the time I do as a seven, I can share feelings, but they're gonna be healthily shared, and this is something sevens aren't as familiar with, so they might just otherwise keep their reading really jokey and light and fun and not hit any depths. So do your own work is my first advice, and it's a bit of a therapist advice for sevens, is get in there and do your own work in whatever capacity with your therapist, with yourself. And then when you get to the page, you're still gonna have your creative fun and joy and sparkle. Um, and we already said also make sure that you can just challenge yourself to finish things. Even again, put that five-minute timer on the clock and say,"I'm gonna tidy up for five minutes." That will take you so far.

Mara

Okay, I love it. So eights are the Challenger, so they would be bold, probably not afraid to shake things up or write about more controversial topics. Um, I don't know eights as well. I don't have any good eight friends, so I'm thinking, like, maybe their pitfall would be a tendency to miss some of the nuance.

Christa

Yes. They can miss some of the vulnerability, like I also said with twos. They can go into the,"Let me tell you what to do." And it could even be almost robotic or just bold print, but not much heart. And so for them to really get into,"Here's my story, and this is what I've learned," in a vulnerable way, it just draws readers in so much,'cause they already have the gift of being clarifiers. Eights are awesome at going,"Okay, what's the big picture? What are the steps we need to take to get to the big picture?" And they can even take the micro steps to get you there, but if they're doing so in a robotic or mechanical way

Mara

Or sort of, like, a lot of authority without the compassion to balance it.

Christa

Yeah, that's another aspect. Exactly. Yep. I love that you brought that up. And we see that power and their clarity as their main writing superpower.

Mara

Yeah. Okay, so then nines, often called the peacemaker, I would think they would be really good at understanding people and understanding all sides of an issue, but then might struggle with people-pleasing and, like, losing their voice and not wanting to, take risks to put themselves out there in that way.

Christa

Mm-hmm. And this is the type when my daughter, who's a nine, and I And she's already gone really far in the world. She already has her associate. She's already now a Pure Barre instructor. She's already a vocalist on the worship team. Powerful vocalist. And so she is our most popular episode we've ever had on our podcast for the types. And we were talking yesterday about how there's nines that are just nines, and then there's nines that are winged eight or one. And this is a type that I feel like re- we were saying really does well to lean on their wings. Because if they're in their pure, peaceful nine form, we love people like that. But if you wanna make a bigger dent in the world, which who's to say everyone has to make a bigger dent, right? We're not saying you have to. But if you feel led to and you wanna be a writer and you wanna get your word out there, then leaning on that powerful eight along with your peacemaker nine, and leaning on that powerful one that we talked about is the refiner or the perfectionist who's not afraid to, to have an opinion, those are gonna help your nine peacemaker to shine. Because you've heard all the perspectives, but now you're actually sharing yours. And we wanna hear it. We need to hear it, especially since you've been so thoughtful and patient to listen to others. But lean on your wings if you're a nine, as well as your main peacemaker.

Mara

Yeah, and, like, take a side. Yeah. Okay. I love that, so much here. I will see if I can write these up maybe in a little chart for Instagram,

Christa

Yes, I would love that.

Mara

listeners, if you're enjoying this, let me know, because I'm open to the possibility of doing a whole series on Enneagram and writers. But I wanna make sure that's something you would enjoy. So, thank you for introducing us to this and giving us so many wonderful tips. Before you go, can you share one thing with us that you've read recently that you thought was particularly well-written, and tell us what you liked about it?

Christa

Oh, I am thinking about Daniel Kahneman's book, Thinking Fast and Slow. That has been such a continual rich read. It's dense, so I have to take it in small bites, and it's been on my, uh, bedside for a long time in that way. But it's a great book to remind us of how cognitive load makes a difference in our lives, even in the decisions we make morally. So it's really fascinating if we're thinking about ourselves as writers to know how much I put in my brain, and then if I sit down at the computer to write, it's gonna matter. It's gonna change the way I write and how well I write. And so I think about it in all aspects of my life. Like,"Krista, where's your cognitive load today? How can you take some deep breaths and release?" Like yourself, I'm a self-pres type, so it's just been a book that's been making me really think, but not overthink.

Mara

Ooh, okay. Well, I definitely need to read that then. I hear about that book a lot from other clients. It's, you know, one of those m- game-changing thought leadership books, paradigm-shifting, so much more, that's going on than you even have mentioned. But, yeah, that's a great recommendation. So I'll definitely put it in the show notes, and I will put your links. you've already mentioned podcast, Instagram. If there was one place for people to go to find you, which one would you recommend?

Christa

I would say go to my website, enneagramandmarriage.com. That's a great catch-all. Aw.

Mara

Okay, and that's where they'll find your quiz and all those free resources. So again, I'll put those in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time and your kindness and wisdom and, compassion that really shows through every time I talk to you. So, thanks again.

Christa

so glad. Thank you for these amazing, excellent questions. Deep, thoughtful, soulful. Keeping me balanced too. So thank you, Mara. You're awesome at this.

Mara

Aw, thank you. Well, I can't wait to see your next book.

Christa

Thank you.

Mara

All right. Take care. Have a great day.

that's it for today's episode. I hope you found a few nuggets in there that can help you capitalize on your superpowers and overcome your weaknesses, or simply understand yourself better and approach your creative work with more compassion. The Enneagram can also be a fantastic tool for fiction writers to help you create nuanced, emotionally complex characters, which is another really fun way to use it. If you're intrigued by this Enneagram stuff and are interested in hearing more about how it impacts the writing life, let me know by sending me an email or a text at the link in the show notes, or by commenting on my posts on Substack or Instagram. I'll be back next Wednesday to take you deeper into the transformative power of writing. Until then, remember, words are more than ink on a page. They are a path to wholeness.