Small Enough to Matter: Pitching, Persistence, and the Professional Writing Life with NYT Freelancer Ericka Andersen (Ep. 17)

Being a successful freelance writer is less glamorous than people imagine, but more attainable than you might think.

In this episode, I’m joined by Ericka Andersen—author of three traditionally published books with bylines in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Washington Post, to name a few. 

We talk honestly about the realities of professional writing: pitching editors, handling rejection, building relationships, marketing books, and learning how to keep going when the process gets hard.

We discuss:

• how Ericka landed major bylines and book deals
• why specificity is one of the most important writing strategies
• how to pitch editors effectively and stand out in crowded inboxes
• the emotional reality of rejection, killed stories, and creative disappointment
• the challenge of protecting your creative energy in a productivity-driven world

One theme emerges: a professional writing career is built less on brilliance and more on persistence, specificity, and conviction that your work matters—even when nobody is validating it yet. 

Mentioned in this episode:

• Ericka’s newest book: Freely Sober
• Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott
• Writing Down the Bones by Natalie Goldberg
• Dear Writer by Maggie Smith
• Perennial Seller by Ryan Holiday
• Hungry Authors by Liz Morrow and Ariel Curry
• Write a Must-Read by A.J. Harper
• A Swim in a Pond in the Rain by George Saunders
• The Book of Alchemy by Suleika Jaouad
• Becoming by Beholding: the Power of Imagination in Spiritual Formation by Lanta Davis

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And visit my website to learn more about my editing services, book coaching, and upcoming courses.

Transcript

0:03

Welcome to the Soul and Science of Great Writing, where the mastery of craft meets the mystery of creation. I'm your host, Mara Eller, freelance editor, book coach, and writing teacher with over 16 years of experience. I'm obsessed with the transformative power of words and with understanding what makes writing truly exceptional. Is it the spark of inspiration that breathes life into words? Or is it the careful structure and attention to detail that turn an idea into something readers can't put down? What I've found is that great writing requires both. this show brings creativity and craft together, exploring the soul and the science with equal parts awe and analysis. In this episode, I'm joined by freelance writer Erika Anderson. We talk about what she's learned from publishing hundreds of articles in places like The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal, as well as now her third traditionally published book. Our conversation reveals that the writers who sustain a creative life are the ones who believe deeply in the value of what they're saying, and are determined to get their words out there no matter what. Let's dive

Mara 1:13

Welcome to the Soul and Science of Great Writing, Erica. So nice to have you.

Ericka 1:17

Yes, thank you for having me.

Mara 1:18

So you recently published your third book. Tell us a little bit about that journey and how you got into writing professionally. Like, how did you get to this point?

Ericka 1:28

Well, I will sum up a long story short, loved writing from the time I could write from the age of probably six years old when I started keeping journals. Um, And always said I wanted to be a writer when I grew up and majored in journalism and all of the things. But really didn't get into actually being a professional writer until I realized, oh, you have to really be intentional about this and make decisions that are gonna put you on that path. And so ultimately

Mara 1:50

wait. What were you doing before that?

Ericka 1:52

Yeah, so I basically was working in communications. I kind of was on multiple different teams for organizations and publications, doing a lot of strategy and marketing in the communications world there. But I ultimately was able to work at National Review magazine, which because I worked there on the marketing team, I got an opportunity to do some writing. And that sort of began like a snowball effect of me realizing how much I loved writing and getting published and seeing my name, seeing my byline, and realizing I could write and talk about things in writing that were really important to me, and that actually could make a difference in the world. And that is how I started freelance writing articles, which ultimately led to me being interested in a book. Did my first book proposal. There's a lot of details in between that first book proposal and getting this third book out, but that's how it started and I have never left, and I love it.

Mara 2:43

Wow. Okay. So your first book was a, more of a memoir, right?

Ericka 2:49

Yeah, my first book was a memoir that I wrote essentially with my husband. I was the writer but he was the storyteller. It was about his life. really a redemption story. Also, very unlikely that I would've gotten a book deal for this just given how hard it is to get a book deal, and especially a book deal for a memoir of a person that's not famous. So I give all the credit to God there that He made that happen, but getting that book deal and publishing that book gave me a lot of other opportunities because it immediately, gives you a platform, gives you credibility and also confidence to walk forward in sort of other writing endeavors that you wanna pursue. And ultimately, of course it, gave me the opportunity to write a second book proposal. And all throughout I was freelance writing, learning how to pitch newspapers and magazines and recognizing that whatever I wanna write about next in a book, I could and should be writing about that in smaller places in bursts and in short form so that I can, increase my credibility but also get more experience in the research and just the knowledge of the subject matter. And so I did that, especially with my third book which is called Freely Sober. I wrote a ton of articles related to sobriety in women before I got that book deal, and that really helped me make a name for myself and be able to prove that I have what it takes to write this book and to sell this book.

Mara 4:04

So I know that you've, over the years, ended up getting basically all the big bylines that I can think of, New York Times.

Ericka 4:11

a lot more. There's a lot more I would love to have.

Mara 4:13

Okay, what's on your list that you haven't gotten? I know you've gotten New York Times, Wall Street Journal Christianity Today.

Ericka 4:20

Good Housekeeping USA Today, Washington Post. a whole bunch more that I'm, like, blanking on

Mara 4:26

yeah. We get the idea that you're very impressive in this

Ericka 4:29

yes. So

Mara 4:30

in this department. okay, so what's on your dream publication list that you haven't nailed yet?

Ericka 4:35

definitely The Atlantic. That's way up there. It's been on the list forever. I haven't tried that hard because I know how hard it is and I just don't feel like I've had what it takes. But, you know, The Atlantic, The Cut, which is extremely difficult to get in. the Sunday New York Times is a different, an even, at a higher level than the regular New York Times. And then magazines, like I'd love to get in a place like Vogue or even Cosmopolitan, those kind of places, which, you think of Vogue and Cosmo as you may think of them as a surface level in some ways, but they're really not. They really do some really heavy, wonderful essays and reporting. And they're hard to get into even though it's interesting that some of those bigger places pay the least amount of money for your writing. Partially because they can, because they know that the notoriety of publishing with them is worth money in and of itself. it's worth reputation, and it carries a lot of weight. And so they

Mara 5:25

a springboard into other opportunities.

Ericka 5:27

If you can say that you've been published here, that helps you.

Mara 5:30

I'm sure it's different for each publication, so maybe focus on The Atlantic. But like, what does it take to get into that versus the ones that you've gotten into already?

Ericka 5:41

I think a place like The New York Times, for example is probably somewhat on par with The Atlantic in terms of how difficult it is to get in. The Atlantic, though, is known for real serious journalism, Their print magazine, if you wanted to write for their print magazine, those can be like 15 pages. 15, 20 pages. So that's the kind of thing that probably would take you more than a year to write a very strategic pitch and really do pre-reporting on what you wanna write about and prove to them you have what it takes. And even then, they can accept your pitch, and they could kill the story. I mean, There's a lot of risk that comes with deciding you wanna write for these places as a freelancer because they don't owe you anything, and at the end of the day, they can actually kill your story, which has happened to me at a couple places. And...

Mara 6:25

phrase too, that is used there. I guess it probably does feel like a death.

Ericka 6:29

It kind of does. I had that happen to me last year with the Free Press, which is also a place I really wanted to be published, but I will probably not try again because of the experience I had with them. They're sort of a new, not even up and coming, I mean, they're extremely popular, and they have some serious reputation to uphold right now. They only want the best, and they only want the best that fits exactly what they're looking for. And so with a place like that, you risk. But I also have to say, this is the nature of it. Every writer, every freelance writer will tell you they have so many rejections. Everyone has had these disappointments with their stories being killed. And the only way that you find success is to keep going and to try again and to try again. And that's also the nature of the creative life, and if you ever read a book about writing, whether it's Bird by Bird or Writing Down the Bones or any of those books, Dear Writer, Maggie Smith. It's like they all have the same idea of that, you have to just move on to the next, and that's just how it is. And it's the only way that you're gonna get there,'cause you can't dwell on what has not worked. And I'm not trying to be depressing, but I've had a hard year with writing so there, there just are realities to it, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

Mara 7:39

Yeah. Well, That's a really important reminder because as you say, you're sharing anything creative especially, it's gonna feel personal, and it's not always gonna resonate. Or even if it does resonate, it's not always going to find a place, or it's not going to resonate more than something else. Do you have any, like, strategies or rituals that you use to help yourself move past rejection?

Ericka 8:03

There's always other places. So there have been certainly times where I've pitched or even written things that ultimately didn't get published, and I just go where else can this go?" And I'm actually doing that with two things, two stories right now, and I'm, like, determined to get them published elsewhere. And essentially, you have to think about where else would this land with, you know, a particular audience, and how do you sell it to an editor? It's packaging your story up in a way that is persuasive to an editor that your audience will wanna read and this is why it matters right now. that goes back to my mottos in teaching people how to pitch and publish their writing why does this story matter right now, and why are you the person to write it? If you're gonna answer two questions, those would be the two questions. Just like everything else with writing, you've gotta have a hook, you have to make it matter, and you have to make it small enough to matter. A lot of times I have students that come to me and they're like I wanna write about, the ending poverty in

Mara 8:56

Mm, Yeah.

Ericka 8:57

It's okay, that's about 10, katrillion books you could write on that. You have to take one small thing and revolve your piece around that. And you have to target something very specific and be able to convince them that this piece of this problem matters, and then you can attach it to the wider context. But yeah, being able to describe what you wanna write about and why it matters in one sentence clearly is a really important skill to develop. And that can be tough to do, but if you can't clearly describe it to yourself, that editor is not gonna understand, and they're just gonna ignore your email and move on.

Mara 9:33

Yeah. Those are great tips about the importance of clarity getting really clear on what it is that you're trying to say. But also, I love that about narrowing your focus, narrowing y- the scope of what you're trying to write about to something really, really specific, and that's something we talk about in memoir writing, and that I talked about with my students in college composition classes that, you know, there's this irony that the more specific you get, often the more you'll have to say As well. I'd have students who'd be like,"How am I gonna write 1,000 words about this teeny-tiny topic?" And I'm like you'll actually have an easier time because there's so many details that you can bring up versus, like, speaking in generalities." I don't know.

Ericka 10:15

Right. And it makes me think of if you make lemonade, it's like you just need a little bit of lemon juice, But you take that little bit, and then you put all this water and sugar and that's the other, that's the details. And so you just have this concentrated thing that you focus on, and then it becomes bigger. But I wanted to mention one more thing just in terms of the tips which is that Being consistent goes a long way. So if you were to say,"I'm gonna pitch once a week," but then like, detach from that process. Like, Don't obsess over it. Just be like,"I'm gonna commit to pitching once a week," and seeing what happens. Because it can take weeks for something to pan out, so you just have to move on to something else, But, like, if you are consistent, eventually you're going to get a yes. Eventually you will get something assigned to you. But if you're like,"Oh, I'm gonna wait till I feel like it," and then you do it once every six months, you're never going to get anything, because it's going to take, at least 10 pitches to get one yes.

Mara 11:03

Yeah, I guess it's a form of sales, that you have

Ericka 11:06

exactly. It is. It's s- you're selling your idea. You're an idea seller.

Mara 11:10

Yeah. So you've got to ground in that belief that this matters. So we had a sales coach on here a few episodes ago, and she was talking about, you know, really believing in what you're offering and that this is gonna change somebody's life. So it's not about you anymore. and I think that goes along with that sense of detachment where it's not about whether someone's accepting or rejecting me. It's about trying to get this out to the reader who needs it and using that to help you detach from the emotional impact of hearing no.

Ericka 11:45

And knowing that, for example, the things that I write about many times I write about pretty serious stuff, for example, to go back to my book, I'm writing about sobriety and women and, like, how is alcohol affecting our bodies. And so I'm like I can write about that on my Substack and 3,000 people maybe if I'm extremely lucky, will see it. Or I can write about it and work really hard to get it in a publication that gets thousands and thousands of eyeballs and really make a big difference." There's a part ego here, where, like, we do... We're writers. Like, we do wanna see our writing out there. But, like, yes, when there's a larger purpose behind it, like, you're not gonna give up so easily. Um, like, there's a piece that I'm working on Getting published somewhere else, because it didn't work out at the first place. And I think it's such a cool topic and it's an, such an interesting conversation that I'm like,"No," like,"this is a really important conversation, so I'm going to convince somebody." Like, passion comes through your wor- even if it's, like, an email, your passion and purpose behind what you're writing comes through in the email. Now, I think there's a lot of people that don't know how to send a pitch, and you have to learn how to do that or you're like, nobody's even gonna read your email. but once you understand the foundational sort of basics of what a good pitch is- Then that passion can flow through, and you I would say my best pitches, like I'm thinking the ones like I've written for the Wall Street Journal that got yeses, were like packed through with,"Listen,""this is this is fascinating. Did you know this? People don't know this.""This is really important and this is why it matters right now because, this data that just came out says that like people are dying because of this. And people don't reali- You know, it's just like you make it so interesting to the editor that they almost can't say no because you've convinced them how important it is.

Mara 13:25

Yeah. So finding something that really sparks your excitement and passion and, perhaps a sense of righteous indignation and, There's some quote about your calling is the intersection of your passion and the world's need or something like that.

Ericka 13:40

Right, and, And, not everybody wants to write about the most serious topics like I do. But you can be passionate about things that are not as serious that are still super interesting and fascinating and curiosity is a word I would definitely like always have with you as you're trying to pitch because you wanna pique the curiosity of the editor. you know, something I would remind people of is like you're not pitching The New York Times and you're not pitching The Atlanta. You're pitching the editor himself or herself. And so, yes, it's that publication, but you also have to make a connection with that individual person, which is why, for example, I had an editor that I worked with at the Wall Street Journal and I wrote three pieces with her and she left. I haven't had any luck since she left because we had a vibe and she liked me. And so connecting with editors on a deeper level is a really like key longterm strategic way to go about this. Because if somebody knows you, likes you and can vibe with you, like they're gonna be more likely to take a chance on your idea.

Mara 14:36

So there's a element of luck there.

Ericka 14:39

Oh my gosh. It is a whole pot of things to get a yes on an article. Luck is certainly one of them. Strategy is one of them. Idea is one of them. Relationship is another.

Mara 14:49

So one of the things that is always intimidating to me and feels kind of out of reach when I've thought about trying to pursue bylines also took your fantastic course, which if you're still offering, we can link to that in the show notes. But, I always feel intimidated by the need to have my finger on the pulse of what's going on and, what are the issues that people are talking about. And I personally have decided not to spend much time, i.e., basically no time, reading news. I don't watch news. I get The New York Times daily email and sometimes open it, and only read what's in the email. And I see stuff on social media and, if something comes up, sometimes I'll look it up to learn more. But it's just not what feeds my soul or it's not essential to my work. You know, it, it ends up being more of a distraction and a- nervous system dysregulator than, having any positive benefits. So that's an aside, but I'm wondering, like, how much time do you spend reading as part of your work as a freelance writer in order to feel like you have a sense of what's going on so that you can then make these decisions about what is relevant, what's timely, and, like, find the ways to connect things?

Ericka 16:05

I could spend all day reading. I could spend 24 hours a day reading, especially Substack, so not enough for me. But I would say you don't wanna write about something you're not interested in, right? So whatever is bubbling up in your life already and you hear about trends. And so I think whatever you're naturally interested in you're gonna see when something about that is being talked about in conversation. And trending, it's subjective, because trending can mean, like, it's trending this week, it's trending this month, it's trending this year, it's trending this decade. You know, it's like this era. And so it's very subjective, because there could be something that you would write for a daily newspaper that you only have five days. But like, something you're gonna write for a print magazine that's coming out in six months that's a different kind of trend. And so you don't have to keep up with the daily to be able to write. But I would also say, I pay attention to the headlines in terms of what's the new legislation coming out? Things that are bubbling up in, in the cultural, conversation, and you can just if you're interested in it and you'll be like,"I wanna learn more about that," and maybe,"I wanna write about it," and maybe you have something to say about it. I do try to, I don't know, couple times a week I try to get into Substack and just browse and, like, really read. That's my favorite place to read things more than anywhere else. Actually, the piece that I'm trying to get published now is about evangelical women that are converting to Catholicism, and what really pushed me into that conversation is a bunch of Substack people that were bubbling up in my feed that were these Catholic feminists. And so I just got fascinated by it, and that's how I ended up wanting to write this story.

Mara 17:33

cool. Yeah, so Substack is a great place for writers. Listeners, if you're not already browsing Substack or sharing your work there, highly recommend it. It's free to start up, and, even if only a few people read it, it's just good practice to share your writing somewhere, and then it has a place where it lives, and it can get found, and you never know what might happen.

Ericka 17:54

Yeah, and Substack I would say also I always want people to have a place their own home to write,'cause you're not gonna get everything published that you wanna write about. And also, I love Substack because it is built-in collaboration. Like, They want you to tag people. You can cite someone's work and tag them, and then that person will repost your article, and, it's a really great place to, to potentially get noticed and to start building a reputation or a name for yourself.

Mara 18:19

Yeah, and a network. If you're reposting other people's things or, like you said, you can quote someone or refer to something that they wrote, then just building a writing community goes so far. That seems like something that I've learned, that I've observed from my writer friends that, you know, when it comes time to launch your book, whose podcast are you gonna be able to be on? And who's, you know, who's gonna re-share your stuff on social media? And it's like, it's the people that you've interacted with in the years building up to it. And and I also do wanna emphasize what you said about that it's so great to have a place where you can publish your own things, because especially if you're pursuing these big publications, it's nice to have a place where you can say if it doesn't work out there, I'm going to publish it on my Substack." And you set a date. I think you've talked about that kind of thing, where or if I submit it 10 places and it doesn't get in, I'll publish it myself. And it's a little bit similar to book publishing, where if you don't get a traditional book deal by X date, then maybe you can pursue self-publishing, and it's not necessarily lesser, but it's just different,

Ericka 19:27

i'll...

Mara 19:28

to... I don't like the gatekeeping, right? The gatek- the sense of gatekeeping of if someone else doesn't choose me, then my words can't get out. That's not a helpful perspective, and it's just not true. Your words can still reach people without anyone, in charge, in authority giving you permission.

Ericka 19:43

And also I would just say a great reminder to people is just because you publish your writing on this idea on your Substack doesn't mean that you can't ever publish that somewhere else. Because I always say that we are always evolving. So what you write today about So what I write today about sobriety is not the same thing I'm gonna write about a year from now. And you can say, take the same key concepts, and if you get the energy or you get a kind of fresh wave of ideas on that topic, yeah, you wrote about it on Substack. Well, It's time for a new pitch. It's a new era. It's a, maybe there's a new editor. It's a new season. that doesn't ever take it off the table for you. It's that whole thought of never save your writing. Do not save your writing for a book. Do not save your writing for an article. Get it out there, and it's not gonna be the same when you write it for someone else.

Mara 20:30

great, point,'cause that's a question that comes up a lot. What if I publish it on my blog, and then I can't..." Yeah. And it's...

Ericka 20:36

"Not enough people reading your blog that would even know."

Mara 20:38

And a blog is a very different format than a book.

Ericka 20:41

Yeah, and it's gonna be, have a different audience, and by the time you get it out there in book form, it's gonna have been edited. It's not even gonna be the same,

Mara 20:48

okay, so you've been promoting this book, Freely Sober, like crazy from at least what I can tell on

Ericka 20:55

working really hard.

Mara 20:56

in a good way, yeah, and very impressive. I think you've done more than 20 interviews at this point, s- some of them pretty high profile. What have you learned from all those interviews?

Ericka 21:08

I think what I've gotten better at is learning how to weave the book into the conversations. We're all immune or, don't love promoting ourselves and being like,"Buy my book, do my thing," but I've learned to sort of in conversation say"Well, in, Freely Sober I talk about this," or,"In Freely Sober I've got..." It's like learning how to just naturally bring it into the conversation without being pushy about it, I think has been a skill that I've developed over time. but also just a genuine desire. I really do think that my book will help people, and I really wrote it so that people will be able to pick it up and at the end of reading it, feel empowered and feel stronger. And, the premise, Mara, you know the premise. Mara edited the first draft of the book, and the premise is by the time you finish this book you'll never think about alcohol in the same way again, and I believe that. I believe that 100%, and so I just think there's so much power in what I wrote that I I just believe in it. And so it's not hard to go out there and talk about it. But it is hard to sell books. It's so hard, And it's interesting,'cause I've heard a lot of people talk about this people in like the business world who wrote a book have said like, It's harder to sell a$15 book than a$1,000 course." And sometimes it, sometimes it feels that way, and I don't know if it's because, I think people are reading less these days. I don't... I'm not one of them. I'm making up for all the people that aren't

Mara 22:27

Yeah.

Ericka 22:28

But I'm just at the point where I'm like if it takes forever, I don't care, I'm gonna keep selling it. And that's why I'm sort of pivoting to, to focus more on this as, like, a message and a ministry, and I don't know what I'm gonna do with that. But because I care so much about it, this book is not just a book, it's a part of something so much bigger that I care about. And I think when you write a book, it kind of has to be like that a little bit if you want it to sell long-term.

Mara 22:50

Yeah, I think that's a really good perspective of thinking of it as a ministry, whether you're a... consider yourself a person of faith or not, it goes back to that foundation for ethical, non-cringey selling of, like, you have to believe that this is going to make people's lives better, otherwise,

Ericka 23:08

Why are you doing

Mara 23:10

And like we said on that episode, it- It can be making people's lives better just because it's entertaining. Often though, there's gonna be a, an extra part to that that might be entertaining and, you know, have some deeper meaning. But if you want to sell a good number of copies, sure, there's pro- there's a way to write a book and maybe self-publish or something that doesn't take quite as much energy and time, but even that is gonna take a lot of energy and time. So it's like it really needs to be something that you care enough about that you can sustain that attention through

Ericka 23:42

Yeah, if you give up

Mara 23:43

of work.

Ericka 23:44

if you give up on your book, everyone else is gonna give up on your book. I would... So one highly influential for me, Perennial Seller by Ryan Holiday is everyone that wants to write a book should read that, 100%. And then also also Hungry Authors by our friends Ariel and Liz is a great book to read. And then you know I'm gonna say. Write a Bestseller by AJ Harper.

Mara 24:05

Write a must-read.

Ericka 24:06

Write a Must-Read, sorry. Write, not a Bestseller. It doesn't have to be a bestseller, but it, it should be a

Mara 24:11

If it's a must-read, it will probably become a bestseller.

Ericka 24:13

It may be. Yeah, so I was reading that book while writing this book, so I came into that book a little late in the writing process, but, this lady knows what she's talking about, okay? And you should read her book and you should listen to her podcast because"People wanna get books out."I just wanna get this book out." It's like, no, that's not gonna be a good book. It's gonna take time. It should take time. Don't try to rush this process because you're not gonna write a good book if you're trying to rush this process. So yeah, it can take three years. I mean, But at the end of the day, do you want a book that people read and actually makes a difference or just a book that is sitting there? honestly, this book, I did not wanna do it as fast as I had to do it because the publishers were like,"We have to get this out for Dry January." had, Had that not been the deadline, it probably wouldn't even be out yet. I think it would've probably come out in June had we not been rushed. So I hate that we had to rush it, but, there, there are constraints when you're fortunate enough to get a publisher, and there are goods and bads to having a traditional publisher,

Mara 25:12

tell us a little bit more about your writing process for this third book. what did you do maybe differently than you had done with previous books? Love to hear why you decided to seek out additional editing in the, in the... Laughing'cause that was, that was me. Um- But I also don't wanna skip our question that I like to ask everyone, when it comes to the writing process, do you tend to lean more into the soul side of things or the science side? And you can define those however makes sense to you.

Ericka 25:46

I would say My first book was a hot mess, and I had n- no plan there. Second book I was getting less of a hot mess, where I was creating more of an outline. This book I had much more of an outline in terms of what each chapter would be. It was still seriously needed help on the structural side, which you helped me with a ton. But I think if and when I write a fourth book, I will be much better even at that. just being able to have it laid out in a way that makes sense and like, builds, you know, to have an ar- a story arc or whatever, and then comes down and know w- what order to put things in. I think it's always gonna be confusing because you're not always going in chronological order, which is, the ha- hard part.

Mara 26:27

Because this book is a mixture, like it has a lot of your personal story in it, but it is a prescriptive nonfiction book where you're addressing the reader with second person you, and you're saying, Here, this is what you need to know, and this is how you could move forward," and...

Ericka 26:43

yeah. So it's like it was combining memoir, journalism, and then the prescriptive- Part of like self-help. So there was really like three parts, which maybe make it, made it more difficult to put together. But I would say yeah, like I, I had an outline. I really understood what are each of the components of this topic that I really wanna cover, and I was able to turn those into different chapters. And the reason I decided to have you step in, even though I knew I was gonna have a full edit from my publisher, is because I've realized, that traditional publishers are great, but there's a lot they don't have capacity for. And if you want your book to be as very best as it can be, you wanna turn in the best draft you can turn in to their editor. Because it goes through a structural edit. It goes through like another edit and another edit there at the publisher's. But the book's going to be better the better draft you turn in. And so I was like I don't wanna screw this up, and so I'm gonna have someone come in before and go through it." And had I been able to go through another round with you before I turned it in, I would've. Again, there's only so much time. Like we all know as writers, like you could edit until forever, but eventually you have to stop.

Mara 27:49

Right. Yeah.

Ericka 27:50

um, and then the soul and science question, I would probably say I'm a lot more soul than science just as a person and in writing. But I will say as a journalist, I do rely a lot on the data and the numbers, so that was probably where the science part comes in. Like I hang everything on data because I think it explains so much of what's happening and why it's happening and is so revealing. And so data and studies are always a part of what I do in writing. And so I I guess I put my soul around that science Um, And it's something that I teach people to do. I'm like,"Listen, the data is everything. The data is the story. The data explains everything, and there's always new data." So it's always your n- fresh hook to use.

Mara 28:31

Yeah. So the soul, the way you're talking about it is kind of like what you're passionate about, maybe your personal experiences, your opinions, and then you use the data to hang your personal experiences on or,

Ericka 28:46

around the data sort

Mara 28:49

and it also sounds like as you've progressed, your first book maybe didn't have very much structure, second one had a little bit more, and your third one you really took some extra time, spent some extra money to really try to dig into what is the best way to organize this information, what's the reader journey, you know, that That architecture that we've talked about on this show before that takes the soul and makes it something that a reader can walk into and progress through, that can actually, It's like it provides a structure to hold the soul, for the soul to live in, like a house,

Ericka 29:25

yes. Yeah, th- that's so true because, and there's a, that's a balance. I would say a lot of my work is probably almost too data-heavy simply because I just, I'm, like, always like,"Well, what's the thing that... I wanna prove what I'm saying here." And so I could probably do a better job at balancing that. Um, However, I think whatever kind of writing you're doing data is going to be helpful in making the point that you wanna make. And you'll see that in almost every kind of prescriptive nonfiction book. They've always got a lot of that in there.

Mara 29:52

Yeah. So it sounds like data and structure are two things that are coming up that you might name as essential for great writing. Is there anything else that comes up to you when you think about what makes for really great writing? What does the writing that you admire the most tend to do?

Ericka 30:09

I think for me to write well, not starting from scratch is helpful. So having something to pull from, some kind of prompt, or I've made a list. I've thought about this before, and I'm not coming to a blank page. I think a blank page is really tough to approach. And so if I know I'm gonna start writing something tomorrow morning, I might spend five minutes just brain dumping about it the night before on a Google Doc so that when I get there in the morning like, it's oh, I've already got something there that I can pull from. And I've been doing journaling with The Book of Alchemy. and I love it so much because it's like a one-sentence prompt. And then it's like, next thing you know, you've like, I'm like write, handwriting in this journal, and I'm like,"Oh my gosh, this is the best thing I've written in two years." And it's just a random prompt that I'm handwriting that I'm not even gonna show anybody. But I think what I've learned recently is just you have to tend to your creative brain, and you have to have space however you can give yourself that to think instead of just being like"Well, I have to write." You can set a word count goal. You could be like I'm gonna write 3,000 words today." But you have to have freedom in that and know that like half that's probably gonna be garbage. it takes time. It takes time. It takes sacrifice. And being a writer it's a privilege. It's a privilege to have the time and the money to be able to spend time doing this. that's just the way it is. It doesn't mean you can't do it with limited space and time, but it's a lot harder when you don't have the time to dedicate to it. Some of that time is doing nothing too, which is really hard.

Mara 31:35

like, Writing time? How do you make that time?'Cause y-you're a mom, and you've a business, and

Ericka 31:45

I haven't been making that time very much. But I'm starting to make it again. When I was writing the book, I did. I did have Saturdays blocked off where I was just writing the book, and so that was the only way I was able to do it. I couldn't have done it any other way. But now I'm, like, literally making myself have journaling time every day and sit and try to just be silent and just... it's hard. It's hard for me as a person who wants to fill every minute with productivity. But I'm realizing like, the creative aspect of myself that can create good things and come up with good ideas has been sucked dry by my schedule and productivity, and that's why I'm w- truly have made changes in the past month to hopefully get back into that place where I can actually write something good.

Mara 32:26

Yeah, that's so important and so hard. So I appreciate you leading the way there. All right. Is there anything else that you would tell someone who's just starting out that you wish you'd known? Or what would you tell yourself going into your first book, let's say?

Ericka 32:41

What would I tell myself? I was honestly delusional about it and didn't know anything. So I think part of me, had I known how hard it's supposed to be, I don't know that I would have tried, but because I didn't really know, I tried. And so I would say don't let the rules and what you hear stop you from trying. I- you've probably heard me tell the story of I, I told somebody one time at a conference, I don't know. It was a book publisher of some kind, and I was writing a memoir, and I wanted to publish it, and they basically were like,"Yeah, that's not possible. You're not gonna be able to get that published." And I could have listened to that, right? But I didn't listen to that, and I just, like- follow the crumbs that were laid out in front of me. I met someone that offered to introduce me to her book agent, and I was like Okay. I'm gonna do my best," and I just you just do the next thing. Just do the next thing. When you have it in you to write a book, when you feel like, called to write a book you're just like,"I'm gonna write it regardless." At least that's how I am. every single time I've been like I'm gonna self-publish this if it doesn't work out." because the gatekeepers are not the arbiters of what your writing is worth. They're, they don't get to determine the value or the reason why you write something. And you can shoot for the stars and, shoot for the moon and you land among the stars or whatever. But writing cannot be just about the accolades. And even the accolades and the success I hate to say it, but it's not as fulfilling as you may

Mara 33:56

It's about the journey ultimately, even though it's good to have goals, and we can... it's just like human nature to think,"Oh, once I get this thing," or,"I have that award," or,"I have this many publishers or followers or..." You know, We think we're gonna feel different, and what I keep learning myself and learning from everyone else who's reaching the milestones that I wish I could reach is, no, you actually don't feel that way that you think you're gonna feel. It's usually there's some anticlimax, and what really matters like, our lives are made up of the journey. I also like the concept of focusing not just on the journey, but on, like, the person that y- you become as a result of the journey. Like, it's not so much about publishing the book as it is about becoming the person who could write and publish the book, which takes the pressure off or the emphasis off a little bit from those external outcomes that are largely out of our control, and puts it more on... The internal journey of growth, that is really worth so much. I have two final questions for you. First one is: what is something that you've read recently, that- You've really liked that you thought was an example of really great writing, and what did you like about it?

Ericka 35:15

a book that I'm reading right now that I have found so far to be really good writing is by a woman that I heard speak at the Faith and Writing Conference. Her name is Elanta Davis, and this book is called Becoming by Beholding: The Power of the Imagination in Spiritual Formation. And so far, I think it's really beautiful writing about a beautiful idea, and it's really thought-provoking. I just read a chapter on iconography, which is something I've never thought about in my entire life. But I love

Mara 35:43

now that you're getting into Catholics...

Ericka 35:45

exact- like all signs point that direction right now. Um, So I'm really loving this book, and I think- it's got a lot of really good ideas in it, and I think she's the kind of person, like not out there like trying to hock her book all the time. But hearing her speak, I just loved what she had to say and her ideas, and so I picked up this book and I really like it. So maybe she'll sell another copy to someone that's listening to this. I'm also currently reading another book that was recommended to me at the Faith Writing Conference called A Swim in a Pond in the Rain by George Saunders, which is a writing craft book where he's focused on Russian literature. Again, something I would not be drawn to, but so far I'm really, really, really liking it. And it's about fiction. I don't even write that, but I think the more that you can learn about other genres, I think that only strengthens what you write because you bring in those other elements and it makes you have a more unique sort of approach to how you write. And so I'm hoping that's what it does for me.

Mara 36:41

I love that. I'll have to check those both out. We're gonna have a very full list of show notes

Ericka 36:46

am co- I have s- always have so many book recommendations for people.

Mara 36:51

Love it. Okay. Well, Tell us what is next for you and where people can find you.

Ericka 36:58

Yeah. Well, You can find me at ericaanderson.com and ericaanderson on Instagram and everywhere else. And so yeah, I'm just currently like in this season of really marketing my book, Freely Sober. If that appeals to you at all, buy a copy. That would be

Mara 37:12

tell us who is your ideal reader

Ericka 37:14

So I guess the ideal reader on the book proposal would have been like a woman in her late 20s to like early 50s that is a Christian that has either struggled with alcohol, is sober curious, or just is interested in this conversation about alcohol and faith and also wellness. I'm going broad here, but I do talk a lot about the wellness side of alcohol and what people don't know. And w- you learn a bit more about the way alcohol affects the female body, like that's one of those things where I'm like,"At the end of this book, you'll never think about alcohol in the same way again," because what we know about how alcohol affects the female body is like it's a lot more than it affects the male body. And that's just, hey, perks of being a female. It's like everything affects the female body more or so it seems. Just any interest in any inkling of that discussion, like I think it's not just for someone that's like,"I have a drinking problem," but as I said, there's a lot of journalism, there's a lot of research, and also memoir. it could appeal to across the spectrum women.

Mara 38:11

I really appreciate your vulnerability in that book, that you share some pretty personal stories and some, some real low points and you know, you don't shy away from that or try to paint a pretty picture. Like, you're not speaking down to people from on high. You're writing as someone who's really been there and maybe, you didn't end up in a gutter anywhere, but you have, have your own. Yeah.

Ericka 38:36

Because it's like I'm just lucky that, you know, uh, driving tipsy, that happened to me. I've done that. I'm lucky that I didn't get in a wreck, you know? I'm i'm lucky some people, things happen to them that were no worse off than me. And, yeah, it's just some, it's just a basically a book about Like, we're all just broken people, and like you're no worse than another person for this particular struggle. And I wanna just normalize that it's okay to like talk about it and get help. And, you know, there is fear of judgment, and some people are gonna judge you. But like we're getting rid of those stereotypes, and we're like bringing it out into the light. I mean, the one thing, totally supportive of AA, but I think the one thing that is a struggle there, the, uh, you know, conflict there is that it's supposed to be anonymous. And it's if less people were anonymous, more people would get help, because they would see these names and faces of people. Um, And uh, not everyone is called to that, but I'm called to that. And so I hope that, that's helpful to people that need it.

Mara 39:25

Yeah to feel less alone. There's probably people all around you if you're listening and y- that's something that you struggle with to any degree, that there's probably people all around you that are in a similar position that you just don't know'cause no one's talking about it. So I really admire you for leading the way in that, Erica, and Having that courage to share that part of your story and to speak about something that has been taboo, particularly in Christian culture.

Ericka 39:54

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. uh,

Mara 39:59

Very good. All right. Thank you so much for coming on today. It's been a real pleasure to speak with you.

Ericka 40:05

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. I love everything you do, Mara, obviously. big fan, so if anybody needs anybody's wondering if they should hire Mara to be an editor, the answer is yes.

Mara 40:14

Oh, thank you. When it comes to your fourth book let's get in touch as early as we can.

Ericka 40:18

I will. I will.

Mara 40:20

Okay. Take care.

40:23

That's it for today's episode. I'll be back next Wednesday to take you deeper into the transformative power of writing. Until then, remember, words are more than ink on a page. They are a path to wholeness.