Chamber Chat
The Chamber Chat - Danville Indiana Podcast informs, connects, and entertains by spotlighting local businesses, community leaders, and events that shape Danville, Indiana. Each episode shares engaging conversations and valuable insights that strengthen community connections and celebrate what makes Danville Indiana thrive.
Chamber Chat
Chamber Chat: Refined Beauty Part One
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What happens when someone who rarely makes time for self-care says “yes” to a facial?
In this episode of Chamber Chat, Kelly visits Refined Beauty, where owner Lindsay Simmons treats her to a relaxing facial while sharing practical skincare tips, common misconceptions, and simple ways to care for your skin at any age.
Lindsay and her business partner, Sam, have made a tremendous investment in Danville by creating a space dedicated to beauty, pampering, confidence, and self-care. Their passion for helping others look and feel their best shines through in everything they do.
Kelly steps outside her comfort zone to experience it firsthand, offering an honest perspective from someone who isn’t a skincare expert. By the end of the appointment, she leaves feeling refreshed, revived, relaxed, and amazed at how healthy and smooth her skin feels.
Whether you’re a skincare enthusiast or someone who has been putting yourself last, this episode is a fun reminder that investing in yourself is never wasted.
Be sure to like, subscribe, and support local by visiting Refined Beauty in downtown Danville.
Welcome to the Chamber Chat. We're in a new location today, and I am very excited about this. And we are at Refined Beauty, right here on the square in downtown Danville. So introduce yourself.
SPEAKER_00Hi Danville. My name is Lindsay Simmons. And yes, welcome to Refined Beauty, our little secret gem here on the square. So today we're going to treat Miss Kelly to a treatment. So Kelly, tell me a little bit about your skincare. What do you do at home right now? I wash it. You wash it. Do you wash it twice a day? Yeah, I probably do. Yeah. Good for you. Do you hydrate every day? Yes. And how about that sunscreen? Uh sometimes. Yeah. If you were to change anything about your skin, what would you do?
SPEAKER_01I'd make me 30 years younger.
SPEAKER_00Likewise. I wish I had that magic potion, right? Yes. This every bottle, right? That would be great. If only. But one day we can achieve that. One day I think we can. Okay. But in my world, I'm not going to reverse time, but I'd like to soften what the Lord has given me and just make it a little less, you know, my lovens are really popping through, but I call them my wisdom lines, right? So I like to soften those things and I like to even out your tone. What else don't you like about your skin? What would you change? I don't know. You like it? That's great. That you love. But doesn't it like bother that doesn't bother me so much? So everybody could use a little TLC on your skin, but it sounds like the hardest thing to do is establish something at home because good skincare really starts in your house. You're going to be at your house in your vanity doing your skincare more than you're coming to see me. I just enhance what you do at home. And I can do some other things, other modalities to help soften the aging cycle in our face and really um brighten and give you a natural glow. I like to use what the body's already given you. There's a lot of power in the body that we can tap into. Some of that is circulation to get some of that collagen flowing. Some of it's even lymphatic to get your hyaluronic acid that's naturally produced in your body to flow again. And that's going to hydrate and plump your skin. So I can do things here at Refine Beauty to also help your body naturally plump and soften the lines and even out your skin tone.
SPEAKER_01So somebody who's not probably had a facial in probably 30 years.
SPEAKER_00Oh, better. Yeah, no problem. Okay. Yeah. So what should what should I expect? So for my first treatments for everybody, I don't know how your skin's going to respond. So I like to really just start off with a very gentle, mild treatment. Give your skin a good cleanse, give it a very nice exfoliation, and then I do an analysis just to see how your skin is even responding to just that. Um and see, like deep down, you were saying you had some concerns about a recent breakout that you had, just a mild. So I'll take a look at that. Anything, any imperfections, blemishes, anything like that. I take care of it during your analysis. Um, that analysis also tells me what I need to do for your actual treatment itself, what type of mask to put on you. Um, and we have a number of different uh masks that we can customize to your specific skin type. Okay. Um that's your first refined beauty facial. And then from there, it's usually progressive. It's really what your skin needs at that time of the day, that time of the year, your skin changes throughout the year. So your skincare should evolve with that change throughout the year. Um, although you should always wear your sunscreen. Okay. 365, no matter when you're at, no matter what, always wear the sunscreen.
SPEAKER_01I do sunscreen pretty well on my face. Yeah. Everybody sells it.
SPEAKER_00Everywhere, you know, it's so hard. You know, you're sitting at, you know, football, rugby, all these different outdoor activities, running to and from businesses, you know, like that's and even your hair and scalp. Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that your scalp is just like the skin on your face. So it's gonna be susceptible to all this burning and skin cancer. So it's very prone to those as well. So we really should find things that have SPF in it for your hair as well. Okay. Because at Refine Beauty, we don't just do skin, we also do hair. Uh, we have three amazing stylists that work here that do everything from cuts, colors, all kinds of stuff. Miss Layla did this cheetah print on a gentleman's hair the other day. It was amazing. Check out our website. We posted it because it was so cool. That's very cool. It was so cool. And she did such a wonderful job. Um, and nice things you can do when you're youthful, right? I could never walk out of here with cheetah print, but heck, we can make somebody else if they want it. That is so cool. I would have never thought of that. Yeah, it was awesome. But uh, we also do full body waxing. Um, and then we also have the lovely Miss Kate. Uh Kate Harley comes to us from Las Vegas. She was trained in lashes in Vegas. She's a brand ambassador for a lash company there. Um, so she does all wonderful things with lashes, whether it be extensions to lifts. Um, she's amazing. She also does hair. Um, but then we have Sammy who does our piercings and she does tattooing as well as permanent makeup. So it's kind of a one-stop beauty shop. It is, yeah. So we can also address those needs too. But for today, we're gonna just focus on your skin and we're gonna give you a nice, wonderful glow. So you'll definitely, that's why we have our big mirror here, because I love when people come out of the treatment room just to show them like that's your natural glow. Your body is that's not an oil, it's not a bunch of hydration, it's just Kelly's skin. And I love to replace the dull and the lifeless skin with this beautiful, bright, you know, natural glow. Well, great. This is exciting. It's gonna be nice, and we'll get some relaxation in there too. Okay, yeah, all right, totally. Okay.
SPEAKER_01The next segment in this podcast, I uh step way out of my comfort zone. And so I'm telling you, if you want to, you can turn off the video, just listen to the sound, and I would be okay with that. Uh, but Lindsay gives some great information, great tips, and uh it's a lot of fun. But you are actually watching me get a facial. So just a heads up. Okay, this is really taking me out of my comfort zone. Really? Yes. Yes. That line is one. Oh, I'll be honest.
SPEAKER_00I uh did you start with that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I did.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um, since I got heavy, uh like uh this doesn't feel like something I need to be doing, right?
SPEAKER_00Something is that weird doing. I don't know. I feel like I need to be in the gym. Oh, you know what though? Same here. It is all self-care. So yeah, you it you do Kelly. It doesn't, there's nobody saying, Oh, you should be at the gym instead of getting your facial. You know, in some cases, uh, that pressure of life and the stress and just all that expectation of what you think other people are thinking you should be doing. Kelly just needs to do Kelly and feel good in your own skin. And until you feel good in your own skin, it's really hard to take care of yourself, right? Yeah. Um, I mean, I yeah, I've never been as heavy as I am right now, and I thank my kids for that. My oldest is 19, so who's been lazy the last 19 years? I just keep myself busy, but um, yeah, we are our own worst enemy, and take the pressure off. So, right now we're doing our first cleanse, and this just kind of breaks down everything on the surface of your skin. Um, and it's a really nice, it's a kiwi cream cleanser. So it has a little bit of a fragrance to it, but it does, it just takes all the oils, breaks them down, softens that barrier so we can really start to get into the skin and treat it. So, how long have you guys owned Refine Beauty? So we've owned it since September of 2020. Well, we opened the doors September of 2024. Okay. Um, and prior to that, we were working with um Tracy Jones and Bill Franklin. They had owned the Good Glow, and my partner Sammy and I were helping them out. Um, and then we just decided to take it over and expand some of the menu items, and um yeah, it's kind of grown from there. We've got two new employees as of this year. Um and yeah, it's been great. Um, Miss Kate comes to us from Brownsburg, and then Layla is a Danville grad. Okay, yeah, last year. No, year before, 2025.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_002025. So yeah, we're keeping it local. Which is great. That's why we're here also. Um we don't have a lot of spaces like this. Um we do here in Kendricks County. We've got a great, you know, I would say from a you know, competitive profile, we've got a decent mix um within Hendricks County. Um, but here in Danville, I think we just have a few other things that kind of set us apart. Um and that really is some of these other menu items that we're offering. Uh, we've got some training that's coming up this summer on spray tanning. Oh, that's yeah. Um so yeah, that's that's actually this month. Uh when we get back back to the grind next week, everybody get back from vacation and um but yeah, so that's gonna be an exciting um addition to our menu that we're looking forward to. Because you should always wear your sunscreen. So is it gonna be somebody in here? Do I have it? Like somebody already here. Yep. Yep. Um, I'm sort of already trained on it. I need to refresh. Um but all four of us are gonna get trained on it. Um there's a gal that's in Lisden right now that does a great job um spray tanning, as well as I think in Clayton. Is she in Clayton? Allie? Yeah, yes, bronze by Allie. Yes, I've been there. She's great. Sam's been to the gal in Lisden. Um, but yeah, we feel like Danville needs a little representation. So looking forward to that. But yeah, we um we try to wear all the hats. I don't do hair. That's why I cut mine off. Um, but yeah, for the most part, we want all of our clients that come through the door to experience the same thing regardless. Um, each of us have our own little technique, but um for the most part, it's pretty much this we try to maintain the brand.
SPEAKER_01I love that you guys have just so many uh I mean such a variety of services.
SPEAKER_00Right, yeah, it really, it really helps the business case. It really does.
SPEAKER_01What's been the most challenging part of owning your own business on the square?
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, more than anything else, we get, we didn't know you were here. Yes. Um, a lot of people didn't don't realize this space is here. Um so yeah, honestly, before the traffic with Square Burger and um Indiana Farmhouse next door, um, yeah, it was hard to um get the word out. Um so we did some more advertising through like um Winter Wonderland and just trying to get more presence in the community itself before we kind of expanded that footprint. So I'd say that's been the hardest thing so far is just people not realizing that we're here. Um yeah, and um, so yeah, that's been hard. Um, Sammy and I aren't real strong on social media. Um so another incentive for hiring um Miss Leila and Kate, they take care of that for us. Um, and they've done a great job. So I think too, getting the social um media attention has been very helpful. And those girls have really done a great job just getting our name out there. Um and then yeah, just starting to be more present at some of the um local events. We've got some great ideas um for next year from a marketing standpoint, but um just kind of missed the window from executing it this year. So well, great. Yeah, and I think um just again getting more exposure in the community and word of mouth is gonna be helpful um in year three to have hopefully. But we'll see. At least that's my goal. I do have KPIs. There you go. I have to have a goal. Um, so yeah, I think we've seen um just reviewing some of our, you know, numbers. Um, I think we've already within the second year, we've had, you know, a 50% increase to our client retention. That's awesome. It is. So those would be your repeats. Um, and then just within the last two months, we've had um like our booking has almost tripled. Um, that's great. Uh-huh. Great, Miss Kelly. Your skin is clean. And the next part is the derma plane. I like to again get the barrier um completely clean of any impurities before I start to put a treatment on your skin. Um, and really kind of out of the gate, um, and this is consistent with everybody right now, just hydration. I feel just your skin could use some hydration, um, the way that it's responding to the product, right? As I'm, you know, doing what I've done so far. Okay. I can just kind of tell everybody's really dry right now. Um, that humidity is just, it's like a I mean, you can feel it in your body too. And a lot of people think, Oh, I've had my 80 ounces of water today, but unfortunately that doesn't hydrate your skin on your face. Um, the skin on your face is the only skin that on your scalp, your hands and the top of your feet, the only skin that's attached directly to muscle. So another thing I like to share with my clients is massage. Um, I'm also a certified yoga teacher, but massaging the face is also almost like a little yoga workout for your skin. So it increases the circulation as you start to, you can even feel the skin warm up under your hands. Um, you might even be able to feel that energy as well. Um, I like to ask people at the end of their treatment how your skin feels. Does it feel neutral? Do you feel stinging? And usually people will feel energy, and that's just your body has pretty much um awoken, if you will. When you start to massage those muscles, it really, really does a nice job of stimulating the collagen, like we talked about during your consultation.
SPEAKER_01So you mentioned like an at-home routine, and you said that was like the most important thing. It is. All right, so tell me what should be involved in an at-home routine.
SPEAKER_00Great question.
SPEAKER_01You don't have one, it's being done.
SPEAKER_00Yep. It's great. No, um, I don't know if you recall, also, at one time, this space um was also called Blush. Uh-huh. And it was owned by one of our locals, um, Nadine Himsel. And I learned from one of our, one of her, um, I think she was the rep for Jan Marini skincare, and it was out of the gate. She goes, 80% of good skincare happens at home. And I was like, okay. And she goes, think about it. You're at your house, at your sink, more than you are in the beauty, you know, at the salon, spa, whatever. So if you don't have a good skincare at routine at home, you're basically just wasting your time, wasting your money. Like, what are you doing in the treatment room if you're not going to do something at home? So, really, when you're investing in good skincare products, um, at our age, after the age of 20, we stop producing um natural hydration within our skin. So, we should be using a serum in addition to our hydrator. Um, I like to use oils as well just to add an additional boost of hydration to our skin because it's not getting any younger, like we just talked about, right? So you really need that extra hydration, and it doesn't just come from H2O. You've got to put some additional into your skin on your face and your hair as well. Like investing in a scalp serum is very important. Scalp health. I think women, as they start to have that hormonal evolution as well, um, we start to see some hair fallout, right? Some hair thinning. Um, and that's really overall poor scalp health. So we've got a wonderful treatment with hydrofacial that the FDA has cleared as a combo therapy with PRP treatments for hair loss. It's called Carav. Um, and it really does just do a very nice job cleansing the scalp and letting air, but earlier, like oxygen, O2, is so important for overall skin health as well. You gotta let that skin breathe. Um, so yeah, um, it's very important, especially at night, to cleanse your skin, you know, because we've been out in the hot right now, and all that oil and sweat and environmental debris just kind of builds up on the surface of our skin. So you always want to, you definitely want to wash your face at night. That's when I have people that are like, I just don't have time for all these steps. Wash your face at night. Um, you know, invest in a good like toner or something if you don't have time in the morning to wash, splash your face with water, use a toner, and then hydrate. Um, so it's just what and and again, if you've got good skincare, those ingredients are going to be prolonging the effects that you get here in this treatment room. And I'm going to be enhancing what you're doing at home. So it kind of goes twofold. Um, I don't I'm really not a big fan of some of the over-the-counter products, um, some of some of the Korean products. Um, I don't know how tried and true and tested they are. Um, so I just throw some caution to some of those things. Um, but I'm not gonna shy away from some of these products that have been on the market for years, right? Your Mary Kays, your old blaze, right? Um people like those products for a reason. And if you're happy with your products at home, it's going to encourage you to keep that routine up at home too. If you're using a cleanser and after you're done washing your face, if it feels like stripped or like tight, that's actually a sign that you are stripping the natural oils from your skin, and that's not good. Um, if you're 30, 40 years old, you should not be using Neutrogena acne wash at that stage in life because your skin has changed. It's no longer this, you know, sebaceous, oily, you know, acne-prone adolescent skin. So it's going to strip your skin at the age of 35 as opposed to stripping it when you're 18. Um, so yeah, it's just um being smart about your um home care, but also just making sure you're cleansing twice a day and definitely hydrating. Um, it's also fair uh if you're in some of these, you know, more humid climates or dry climates in the winter. It's really, really dry. Uh-huh. So you should hydrate even more so in the winter and in the dead of summer than you do in the spring and fall. Um, because that can really deplete the skin of um that hydration. Um, so yeah, a good skincare at home is it's just it's so important. And if you're going to invest in skincare treatments like this, then you should be investing in at-home care for sure. And it only takes like some product lines, you can like um Arcana is what we use here. I love Arcana, it's wonderful. Uh, it was developed by a molecular biologist that at in her adult age, she was tired of having adult onset acne and was tired of putting toxins on her face. So she, back in 1981, 85, um, developed. This line, but it's nice because you can blend some of the products. So, like uh with my hydrator, I'll mix in a serum or an oil just to skip a step, you know. So um using the same product line is also helpful to be able to um blend and customize as well. And it's okay to mix brands, I don't deter anybody from doing that, but um again, it's if you feel it's effective for your skin and you're liking it, then yes, keep using it as long as you're using it and doing it.
SPEAKER_01What do you use before?
SPEAKER_00So um I kind of cheat with my dermoplanes. I find um I used a um I used a um skin prep solution that um neutralizes the skin, and then I use this oil. Um not only does it help the blade glide over the skin better, but it also nourishes the skin. Um when I was first trained with dermoplaning, um and I've since gone through certification with this company, um, it's called Dermaplane Pro, but um when I first learned dermaplaning, it was you do dermoplane on super dry skin. Well, it just I don't like my skin feeling dry like that for you know the 10-15 minutes it takes to dermoplane. So that's why this oil is really nice, it keeps the skin hydrated while you're doing the treatment. Um, but it also for the for me it helps the blade just glide over the skin just really nicely. And it is it's an oil. Um, and you can use it by itself as well. Um, but I I use it to cheat because it really not everybody's skin is the same either. I've got some derma planes that are very tough to do um because their skin can be really tough or saggy. Um so yeah, yeah. Um but actually what's nice too is once you get to know someone's face, it's almost like a map. Um, and you get you know more familiar with that person's face. So you can dermaplane a little bit better as you get to know their skin. It's a great it's I have clients that just come in and do the derma plane. Um and a lot of people find it very relaxing.
SPEAKER_01It's very relaxing, it is yes, right?
SPEAKER_00A lot of people do. Um it is, it's again, it's a moment away from life, and life is crazy busy. Wrenches are constantly being thrown at you. So why not come in and and you all are just you're really close.
SPEAKER_01We are so in thinking about this in the in the skincare at home. Um, do you like special? I mean, I I think about like teenage girls who are looking at TikTok and learning things. I mean, do you guys actually teach young people how to actually do their own skincare?
SPEAKER_00We actually I have. Um we've done a couple of things, actually. Um, so I will do mommy-daughter facials. Um, I've also had um we have a lovely um client and her daughter have come in, and her daughter's about 10 years old, and it was literally teaching her um how to do her skincare at home. So we've done that. Um, we also just recently hosted um a little eight-year-old's birthday party, and so all these little girls came in and we did, you know, hair like glitter hair extensions and makeup and little tattoos, and they had beauty shops, bobalins, everywhere was super cute. But we also took the opportunity to teach them, you know, like talk to them about good skincare, wearing your sunscreen. Um, so yes, we've had opportunities like that. Um, but yeah, I've I've done a few mommy and me facials, and they're they're actually a lot of fun. Um, depending on the age, um, a lot of my little clients like to do the facial on their moms. Um, so it's kind of cute when they like come around to the esthetician's chair and do their treatments. Yeah, it is actually really cute. Um, so yeah, we've done things like that. Um, I encourage that. I also have a lot of um my kids both go to Danville. Um, my son just graduated, um, and then my daughter's gonna be in high school next year. But just through them, I've had the opportunity of treating a lot of their friends with some, you know, teen and adolescent acne. Um, and that's a great opportunity for me to teach them like, hey, you're gonna go out and put that helmet on, and you're gonna get all sweaty and all this acne that we're treating right now. You're just gonna keep putting fuel to the fire. So I need you to take these wipes and wipe them all over your face between practice when you take that helmet up, you know, just like even then teaching good skincare for some of these kids that are like, Oh, I've never put soap on my face ever, but yet I've got all this acne I don't understand. Um, so yeah, I take advantage of that as well.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they hate coming over to my house because if they have anything broken out or something is a blemish on their face, they're like, Oh, Lindsay's gonna extract it for me. Because I do have a mag lamp at home as well. But no, I I love teaching kids. I wish I had learned early, Kelly. Um, I may I graduated in the 90s, and you know, when we went to the beach, we were baby oil and you know, no sunscreen. Tanning beds, I was in show choir, so tanning beds were a staple, and um my skin really shows it. And I think, you know, when we were talking during your consultation, some of my least favorite parts of my skin are from sun damage. Um, and in order for me to correct that, I need to have laser treatment. And um, well, right now that's on my budget because I've got a kid going off to college next year. Um, so yeah, one day, one day I'll get my laser treatment. And I do, there's a great, I absolutely love sharper plastic surgery and Avon. Um, Dr. Stanley and Dr. Jamie, uh husband and wife, they're wonderful. Um, so I do a lot of referrals to them for some of those more extensive treatments because um they're the med spa, and um, my license doesn't cover that, but I would trust anybody going to the sharper plastic surgery. They're awesome. Oh very good. Yeah, so um they get to do all the the uh uh injectable therapies as well. We don't do that here, we get asked about it a lot. Um, we've talked about incorporating that into our menu, however, um it just doesn't feel holistic for me. And so Sammy and I, um Sammy and I own the space together, and we just really want to focus on a more natural approach to skincare and allowing the body to really do what some of those treatments do. Um there's a hydrofacial beat booster actually that the FDA as well has recently just approved with continued use. Um, it too can give the same effects as Botox and some of these fillers. Um it's a brand new peptide booster that they just launched this year. So, and it is FDA through it's gone through the FDA, um, which is important to me because the FDA is very rigid. Um it's more rigid than many other um government agencies. So um, yeah, I respect once it's gotten through the FDA, it's um there are some skincare products on the market that are actually pharmaceutical grade. Um skin pseudocal uh is one. Uh I believe they're made by Alargan, I think. I think that's an Allargan product. And then um Skin Medica. So also definitely it's gonna be a higher price point, but it's really good stuff. And um, if my cousin watches this, I'm gonna use her. I use her as an example all the time. I have a cousin who's well into her 60s and looks absolutely phenomenal because she takes care of herself, she works out, she you know, eats well, um, she's always been like that her whole life. So she's had that routine established forever. I'm like myself. So um, anyway, she has invested. I know, right? We're all in the same boat, but she is investing in um skin suiticals, like I think it's called their fruic acid or something like that. It's like an A, B, C, it's like the fountain of youth in a little one-ounce bottle. And so um she reached out to me one time and it's like $250 for this little one-ounce vial. But it literally is like the fountain of youth, it's wonderful. Um, and she invests in it, and that's why she looks the way she looks at the age of 63, 62. Um, but anyway, she um reached out to me. I'm putting goggles on you now, Miss Kelly. All right. Is that blocking the light for you? Okay, okay. I'm gonna do your skin analysis now and clean up some of the um little finer hairs that I missed um with my computer glasses. Um, but anyway, she reached out one time and she's like, hey, cousin Lindsay, I just found this same stuff on Amazon. It looks like the same ingredients, it says the same on the label, but it's only $50. And I was like, okay, Maria, you number one get what you pay for. Number two, you don't know what's been that's been formulated with. It's probably from China. Um, you know, it's not gonna have the same effect that the OG does. So that's where I said earlier, you've got to be careful, you need to vet some of this stuff that is being sold through TikTok, um you know, Instagram, Facebook, all those, because it comes down to the formulation and you don't know uh what's in the bottle, and formulas are very important in my day job. I am always arguing with my husband about expiry dates because that shelf life is on that bottle for a reason, and what that means is over time that molecule is gonna break down and it's not gonna be as effective. So the same holds true for products that are in our skincare because oxygen will break down pretty much any molecule. So, as soon as that product comes out of the bottle, you want to make sure that vitamin C or that hyaluronic acid is secure enough to get to your skin after you've gotten it out of the bottle and still allow the skin to absorb it. God put an amazing uh last armor of defense on our body, and that's our skin. The skin is the is an organ and it truly is our last line of defense of the body. And so it's not supposed to be penetrated, right? And so trying to find a product that's formulated to actually be absorbed into the skin is so hard. On top of making sure that oxygen hasn't broken that molecule down, right? So when you're buying the $50 bottle of the fake skin suitable serum, it's probably gonna just either sit on your face and not do anything or evaporate, you know, or have some other toxin that's going into the skin. Who knows? But we have enough crap in our food and everything else that we put into our bodies, don't, you know, do more than you need to. So you get what you pay for. That's the lesson there. And you gotta be careful, especially these young girls, like my daughter, who's 14, was you know, buying all these like drunk elephant serums and whatnot. And I'm like, you your skin's gonna break out. You're that's too much for your skin, for your beautiful, young, youthful skin. You don't need all these serums, but those influencers out there are very powerful. Uh huh. Very powerful. Yeah.