11. THE MORTGAGE TEA: PULLING BACK THE CURTAIN ON WHOLESALE LENDING

 Welcome back to Realty Check! We are 11 episodes in, and today we’re pulling back the curtain on the secretive world of mortgage lending. Ever wonder what goes on behind the scenes after you apply for a loan? We’re doing a deep dive into the nitty-gritty (but not too geeky!) drama of the wholesale market, focusing on the industry giant: United Wholesale Mortgage (UWM). From the "All-In" contract wars to gamified underwritings and free trips to Michigan, Leni and Amanda share the insider tea you won't hear from your local bank. Plus, we catch up on neighborhood pool hangs, being an extrovert magnet, and navigating life as a single mom. Are we crying? Thriving? Tune in to find out! 

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Connect with Leni Lopez (Your Lender Bestie)
Instagram: @leniyourloanofficer
Ready to talk lending or get preapproved? Email her team: leni@hawkinshl.com
Website: LopezNguyen.com
Mortgage Loan Officer
NMLS 1366630/225910
Hawkins Home Loans, Inc.

Connect with Amanda (Your Realtor Bestie)
Instagram: @exploresacliving
Email: amanda@exploresacliving.com
Website: Exploresacliving.com 
Curious about buying or selling in Sacramento County or beyond? Schedule a no pressure call: calendly.com/amandafreemanrealtor
Amanda Freeman | eXp | DRE 02150573

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Realty Check, the podcast about the real lives of agents, lenders, and moms who do it all.

SPEAKER_02 0:05

We're here for the honest conversations behind the business, the family, and everything in between. Let's get into it. Welcome back. Hey, hey, hey.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Welcome to episode 11. We were just socked talking about that. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

We're here. We're so happy to be here with all of you. 11 episodes in. Um every two weeks you get one. Every two weeks we scramble to make sure that we have an episode to go out.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

And we're so excited to do it. We love it. Do you want to tell us what we're talking about today? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But first, Amanda. Crying? Thriving? Are we not cold opening? Oh, I guess we could do that.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Welcome to our life, where like we just start talking and then we get caught up in it, and then one of us, usually me, and reminding her of like, hey, I thought we were gonna do this first, and then Yeah, that sounds like that sounds all right.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

So uh in this episode, we are pulling back the curtain on mortgage lend on the mortgage lending landscape. We're gonna give you kind of like the down low on the number one wholesale lender for the past 10 consecutive years, United Wholesale Mortgage. Okay, I like it. We thought it would be fun to kind of deep dive onto one of the wholesale lenders out there available because even though you might not hear their name a lot, they are someone who's a big player in the field and they are affecting what your loan likes looks like, even if they're not your lender.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

For sure. And I think it's so interesting. I've been able to experience them from the agent side, and so I'm really excited to talk about really deep dive into the nitty-gritty, but not too geeky, more like cash on what this whole mortgage lending world looks like. Yeah. Because the average person doesn't get to see it.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

No, no, they don't. And I think it's kind of by design, but it's kind of fun to be able to pull back the curtain and give you guys an inside peek.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

For sure. So now you may, now you may ask me. Amanda. Yes. Are you crying? Are you thriving? What's going on? Well, right now I'm being driven crazy by my dog. He's he is literally circling the camera right now because he wants to be let out. But we just had pest control here, and so there's still um, you know, poison needs to be uh uh the what the sun needs to dry it up a little bit. Dissipate. Yes, thank you, dissipate. So um he's just gonna do loop-de-loops for a second. But no, I am doing well. I'm trying to like sense, I think that so we're kind of at the end of the school year here, and so this is one of the more chaotic months in parenting.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

You know, we talked about our our dream schedules, we talked about our summer schedules, and we're kind of right in the middle of uh we don't get either of those right now, right? Like, yeah, so that's kind of uh that's kind of where I'm at right now is I'm trying to survive. So I'm not crying, I'm not driving. I just am. I just am. I like like for example, this week I had a sty, but no kids were sick. But then my son did call me to get picked up early today. Um he's a little bit of a theater kid, but it's okay. It's fine. He's he'll he's We love theatrics. He's very theatrical. Um but yes, I'm good. I'm I feel like I haven't shared anything with substance here, other than like, but that's like where my brain is at right now, is I I it's getting pulled in so many different directions. Um yeah, that's my life.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

That's kind of like the story of parenthood, running a business, and all the things. So I mean like you're you're in it. Yeah. You're in it. Yeah. What about you? How are you doing? Crying, thriving, what are we? Um so we've mentioned before, uh, I am a newer single mom. And so getting used to that transition is still obviously there. Um I spent my Friday night looking at pictures of my son on my phone like he had passed away crying. Um still good to see him on Saturday because I coach his T-Walt team. Right. But spent my Friday night crying because he wasn't home. And then Sunday we had Mother's Day. And honestly, I'm just gonna say big shout out to Amanda because Amanda was one of the reasons why I had a really awesome Mother's Day. In our neighborhood, there is a pool that is like it's like an associated, like it's a club pool, so you have to like pay fees to be part of it. I've decided that I'm not going to pay the fees to be an actual member of it, but I will be a mooch and be people's guests all summer long, i.e. Amanda's guest all summer long. Uh, and so after spending our Mother's Day at monster trucks and festivals, we took a nap and I was like, Amanda, can I join? And she let us come over and hang out with them, and it made me really excited for summer. I felt like it was a summer test run. I'm so excited for because my kids spent like three hours in the pool. Like, I mean, off and on because they make the kids get out, but swimming, just swimming his heart out.

SPEAKER_03 5:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

And when he wasn't swimming, he was playing with kids, and it's like so awesome to know that that's a space that I can be a part of because of you during the summer. Like they have electricity, I can post up with my Wi-Fi. I'm just gonna be there parenting and him having his 90s summer, and I'm so ready for it.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

It's gonna be so great. And what's what's really special about our neighborhood too is you know, we have this swim club, but also all of the sport all of the kids are in the same sports, like soccer and baseball are in the same neighborhood. So you see everyone at the sports, and then there's two main schools in our neighborhood, and so almost all of the kids are at one of those two schools. So when you do something like go to this neighborhood swim club, like the kids know a good amount of kids there. So it's it's very fun. It's I it's gonna be a wonderful summer.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

And then we do a not humble brag. Tell me. So I ordered pizza to be delivered there, and they they call my name on this on the speaker and they say Lenny, pizza for Lenny.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

And so I go to walk over and get my pizza, and I'm just walking over there, bippin' and poppin', and then I walk past the pool and I hear a kid talking to their mother, and the kid says, Mom, mom, that's Lenny. She's a sponsor, she sponsors stuff.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

And I did not turn my head, and I was just like, it made me feel like I was on cloud nine. I was like, Yes, children, yes, children, tell your parents about me.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

They recognize you from the ball field. It was all different. And the team having your name on the back of team shirts or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

It'll be and my face on the on the on the banners because I put my face on there.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Yeah. Uh, and then and then we were hanging out. You had such an extroverted moment. You have to understand those people who are introverts like me, they're gonna, they're gonna understand just my like sheer, I just don't understand how you do this. But yes, go ahead. I didn't even realize it was something until she pointed it out.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

So she and I are we are posted up on like these like little like plastic chairs right next to the kiddie pool area. Yeah. And we're watching the kids swim, and this little this little like 15-month-old babe came and stood right next to me. So I start like chit-chatting with this babe. Mom started chit-chatting. We're like just going back and forth, back and forth. Mom walks away for a moment, and Amanda says, Do you know her? And I said, No. And she comes back and I said, Hey, I'm Lenny. And then we introduce Amanda, we we introduce each other, and I say, Hey, you want to pull up a chair? So then she pulls up a chair.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

She was ecstatic that you asked her to pull up a chair. She was so excited. It was very cute. She was so excited. She was like, Yeah, I want to pull up a chair.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

I was like, pull up a chair. And then she starts telling us about her business. Amanda, very well, very smartly, started to mention what we do for business. I've tried. I I'm trying to learn from you that you gotta just kind of jump. Just say it. You didn't have to say it. And then um, she she talked about how she made a Facebook post uh in the in the Facebook group from the neighborhood, and I was like, Oh, I saw that. I said, I'm gonna Facebook friend you, and then I Facebook friend her and we've been messaging on Facebook Messenger now.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

You're creating like I just I it's so weird because I feel like it's not a good analogy because moth to a light is like a bad, like that's a bad attraction, but you just as an extrovert, you just attract people to you. Like they just they look at you sideways and they want to talk to you. It's just and then you've got like this whole like orbit around you. I don't think it's magic.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

I think people crave community, it's just you need to an extended hand. And I think that's my thing is I extend the hand. And I think many people have been burned through childhood or previous experiences that they just are like too afraid to reach that hand out to be you know turned down. To be slapped. Yeah, slap you. But I don't care. You slap me, that's fine. I'll go on to the next person and still extend the hand.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Okay. So Yeah, okay, okay. I don't think it's magic. I just it's so funny to me because I used to be so extroverted in high school and even college, and then a a switch flipped and I was like, I don't want to talk to anyone. I don't want like I'm so nervous to talk to anyone. Probably like um having a bajillion jobs like reject me too. I was just like, like, I just I got burned out from rejection, and so I kind of just became a little hermit. And then you came along and you're like, hi, I'm adopting you as my introvert friend.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

No, she says I had she adopted I adopted her, but I'm the one who's here four days out of the week eating her food. Today I used her shower because it went to the gym. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

So I mean, who adopted who? We're like a dog situation. Have you seen those in the back of cars and say, who adopted who? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's funny.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

I know, I know. It's fun. I enjoy our friendship. Me too, me too. I learn, I continue to learn from you on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Thank you. So we're talking about a specific wholesale lender. Can you let's let's zoom out for a second. Can you talk about the difference between like, because you as a broker, I know we've talked about this a little bit in episodes, but you as a broker, you can work with different mortgage companies, but then there are people who like work for a credit union, so they have to be funded by the credit union. So can you talk a tiny bit about this difference? We don't have to go like deep in it, but just so people understand, yeah, when you say we're gonna talk about one of the wholesale. Of course.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

So there's kind of there's different types of lenders out there. There are banks, there are retail, and there is wholesale. So bank banks are just that. Banks are like Bank of America, Wells Fargo, your local credit union, even though they're not a bank. Um essentially an institution that not only is there to lend and do mortgages, but also does banking. So they hold your check-ins, your savings accounts, and things like that. A majority of loans go through banks.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

It's still shock shocking to me because I maybe because I I tell my clients not to use banks if they can for their home lender because um there's a lot of rigidity around the case.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Well, let's look at the 2023 Polygon study that showed that there's an average savings of $10,662 over the cost of over the lifetime of a 30-year loan for a loan amount of $400,000 when you work when you work with a wholesale lender over a bank. There is a savings. And people instantly think, I need to get approved, I bank with Yada Yada, I should go talk to them. Yeah. But on top of the financial savings, there's a huge savings. Like you said, they can look at different types of loans that a bank wouldn't not normally be able to have access to, right? Yeah. So with a bank, they're stuck with just their pricing, just their structure. Whereas when you work wholesale, I, as a as a brokerage, we can go to this person, this person, this person, this person, and I can see, okay, you can offer this for my client, this, you can offer this, you can offer this. Well, my client needs to close really fast. So I'm gonna work with this person, or oh, my client wants to use a specific uh Native American down payment assistance program. I'm gonna use this one. And so that's kind of what we do is we look at all the different options out there to make sure that we're matching the right one. And it makes it so that I don't have to turn down clients as much as a bank as well. So the rigidity, as you mentioned. But uh another thing that happens is bank hours. Yeah. So when is your bank open? My bank is open from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday through Friday, and from 8 to 1 p.m. on Saturdays. Yeah, mine's not even open that much. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

8 a.m. is an ear that's even earlier than my bank opens.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Yeah. So that's when my bank's open. So that means that your mortgage professional, if you're working with a bank, is only available during those hours. Yeah. So for instance, I had a client today tell me, hey, my me and my husband both want to be there on the phone call, but we aren't home together until six. Great. I'll make it work. We can talk at 6 30.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Like that's something I can do that a bank person, even if they wanted to, could not do.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Right. And and that's not saying that every once in a while bank isn't a good option. Like I have a friend right now, they are uh they're gonna get their loan through a credit union because they've been like members of this credit union for like 40 years, and so they're getting like a 4% interest rate. Yeah. Unheard of amount. So, but that's like a very rare situation. And oftentimes, especially in competitive markets, when I as an agent want to make our offer competitive by saying, like, hey, let's let's have our loan contingency be a little bit shorter, our appraisal contingency be a little shorter. If I'm working with you as a whole as a wholesaler or like as a a broker, a broker, I know that because you work all these different hours that we can make it happen.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Whereas a bank, I get a little bit more nervous about cutting our contingencies because we're losing our weekend hours, we're losing this, we're losing that.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Well, let's say you as a consumer, you as a buyer, are wanting to put an offer on a house and you're wanting to put an offer on Saturday, right? Usually pre-approval coming from. Where's that pre-approval coming from? And then second of all, a nice thing that I do for my clients is when in a pre-approval letter is going out, I message the buyer's agent and I say, Hey, thank you so much for letting me know about the offer going out. Do you want to send me the listing agent's contact information so that I can call them and speak about their pre-approval? Because then I'm going to the listing agent and saying, Hey, I'm Lenny with Hawkins Home Loans. You probably just saw my client's offer go in for this company with this agent. Just wanted to give you my direct contact information, let you know that they're fully pre-approved, I've reviewed all of their documents and they're ready to go. Do you have any questions?

SPEAKER_00 14:57

And and as a listing agent, that is just a godsend. I try, if I can avoid showing my client and discussing an offer with my client until after I've talked to the lender. I try to, as long as it's like, you know, like if it's someone like you, I can get a hold of them. If it's a bank, then sometimes I have to talk to my client about the offer before I get to talk to the lender. And part of that conversation is I don't know how strong this pre-approval is because I haven't had a chance to talk to the lender yet.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Absolutely. So yeah. And what's the interesting thing is what we just kind of mentioned earlier is like most people use banks, is only 40 no, only like 25% of all loans are done through the wholesale market. 75% of loans are done through retail or they're done through bank.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Okay, so is that is that regional? Like, I I mean I'm sure that that that's that is national, but like, do you see that regionally as well? Or would you say that, you know, retail is more prominent in the Midwest, whereas wholesale we see a lot in the Sacramento area?

SPEAKER_02 16:05

That's a really good question, and I wish I knew that off the top of my head, especially since I mainly focus on California.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Um I think that's it's still predominantly bank and retail.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

But wholesale has been growing. So to be very honest, it was a very different market before the the the shutdown. And not the shutdown, the uh the big uh crash, big bust. Oh eight, oh eight bust, yeah. So before, I would say it was closer to around like 60% was wholesale. Okay. But the thing is, it was the wild west. I am not exaggerating. People would be literally having all these other jobs and it'd be like, oh yeah, and I do loans. Because guess what? They didn't have to be licensed, they didn't have to have any kind of like like licensing or structure beneath them. It was crazy. They could do these are they were called ninja loans, no income, no job loans. What? Yes, that's why most of those loans crashed. They were ninja loans, no job, no income loans, and then they had a eight-year balloon payment. So after eight.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Oh God. So yeah, they had eight. You kind of forget you have a mortgage after eight years, and then you get a balloon payment.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Yes, yes, that's why everyone lost their houses during that time. Yeah. So they need a whole new restructure, and during that time, most broke most brokers and most people who were independent left the industry, right? And so they left the industry, they had to get licensed. And here you are telling a good old boy that he's been doing this for 20 years and now he has to get a license.

unknown 17:35

God.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Yeah, no. He says no, thanks. He says no, thanks. So it completely changed the market, and so everyone also felt distressful. Yeah. And so where do they go? They go to who's holding their money. They go to the they go to banks. And so there's been a pendulum switch to banks after that. Okay. Now, since then, the wholesale market has grown exponentially. Yeah. I would say back in 2015, 2016, when I started, it was very small. It was only like 10 to 12%. So it's it's doubled. It's doubled in the past decade. Okay, in a decade. Yeah, it's doubled in a decade. So we're closer to around 25% now.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Can I do just a quick pause, like a quick plug, just because I think that it's um it's an interesting. So right now I'm reading a book called 1929 about the 1920s market crash. Yeah. Uh it the book is written by Andrew Sorkin. He also wrote a book, I haven't read it yet, but it's on my two-read list called Too Big to Fail. And it is about the housing crash. So I just just in case, because I know, you know, big readers out there, so in case anyone who listens is interested, I just I'm looking forward to reading that book. So that's a book that you can read in heed like too. Too big to fail. Too big to fail. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

So, anywho, long story long to say so that's what's going on. Long story longs. So, so wholesale isn't most loans, but because it's a growing percentage, it's something to pay attention to. Okay. On top of it, within wholesale, United Wholesale Mortgage is the number one lender. They make up 40% of the entire wholesale market currently.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

They're massive. Like they are and they're good at what they do. They are good at what they do. They're good at like, you know, we talk about relationship building. From what I've seen, out outside perspective as an agent, they seem to really, really work their relationships with their broker lenders very strongly. They did.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

So a lot, a majority of wholesale lenders have a retail proponent. Meaning that they actually have their own loan officers and they do their own loans. So they're they can do both, like they're available to do the wholesaling, but also okay. So for instance, back in 2020, I worked with the two, the top two, which was Rocket and UWM.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

I was working with both of them. The thing is, Rocket, they have their own retail portion. And there's a few other companies that I could read I could mention. Uh trying to decide if I want to mention them. I won't mention them right now.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

As an agent, if I see Rocket, I'm warning, as a listening agent, I'm warning my why? Yeah. Um I mean, I know I know why. I want to hear why your why is so from what I have heard about about Rocket mortgages, um, they overpromise and underdeliver. Yeah. And there's a lot, sometimes there's a lot of delays and um things just don't um come to fruition that we're told would come to fruition.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

So I don't feel I personally, from my very limited experience as an agent of one, uh feel that there are I I don't see it as a strong pre-approval when I see market, uh, when I see rocket. I see I see it as a weak pre-approval with a company that might not deliver on the say these are solely our opinions.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Yes. And they do not speak on the general ability of a company. No. They're just our very, very limited opinions.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Limited opinions. I am but merely an agent who sees pre-approvals and a very limited amount of that that's not.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

So I was working with both of them in you know 2020 quite heavily. Um, I started to know the difference between the underwriting experiences and then in 2021. So so again, what was happening with retail, and I don't think I explained this yet, but in retail was I would work with a company who was a wholesale lender. They would have their own retail. So six to eight months after I closed a loan, sometimes those companies would then start giving their retail loan officers my files and saying, Hey, reach out to them so we can refinance them. Oh, hi Zillow. Oh, wait, did I say that? Out loud, so it would it would take it from you, and it was it was really messed up because then it's like who is your client? Yeah, and UWM has decided our client are the broker brokers, yeah. That's what they've said, and so they they have no retail footprint whatsoever. If you go to UWM's website right now as a home buyer, wanting to use them, they will send you to their brokersarbetter.com website, which will give you a list of local lenders close to you. That's cool. They do not do anything for themselves, yeah. They solely throw it back to the broker. Yeah. And so UWM did a crazy move in 2021. In 2021, they put out a contract because every company they work with, you have a contract with them. In their contract, they said if you work with Rocket or these other companies that will that have retail and are doing you a disservice, we will no longer work with you.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

What?

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Yes. UWM said if you are using Rocket because they are doing a disservice to the broker industry by by trying to steal your loans in their retail, we that can't be legal for them to do that. It's a huge lawsuit going on right now. Okay, it's cool, it's ongoing right now. It's crazy because then because then they find people who broke it and then then they're suing. It's a crazy thing happening right now.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

It's so insane. Oh, the T. See, this was you listen to this podcast to get the insider T. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Yeah. So like there's literally a Facebook group on there's a Facebook group, and it's it's like blank against it's like Rocket versus UWM, and like people are just shit talking. They are shit talking so much on there. They talk bad about everyone, which way. And like I understand that it was crazy that UWM did that. It's crazy. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

It's crazy they did that.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

I mean, like and I thought about it. I thought about it. Lori and I discussed it, like, okay, well, are we gonna give up Rocket? Like, we send a lot of loans there. Like, are we gonna get up to give up this company? We send a lot of loans there. Yeah. But then when we thought about it, we're like, you know, UWM's not wrong. Sure. They are taking our clients. Yeah. It's not doing the best.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Well, I just said that I don't like Rocket. I just think it's wild that that they made the decision for you. They made the decision for us. But like, that's the wild part to me. Mm-hmm. It's not that I like Rocket, it's just I know, isn't that crazy? Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

And so then it was called the all in. That's what it was called. All in? Yes. Okay. So then you were if you if you stayed with UWM, you you said you were all in for broker, meaning that you didn't want to work with companies that also like were stealing your loans.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

I know, I know. It was great.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Which kind of cuts your the number of companies that you can work with. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

But the thing is, again, those companies were going and stealing loans from us. And so it was like this big back and forth.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

I feel like it would be like if homes.com said if you if you take any leads from Zillow, we are, you know, we are not, you're not allowed to have the mem our your membership through us. Yeah, very similar. I mean, it's not quite that in-depth, but I'm trying to think about like an agent uh like uh comparison.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

I know it's it's a crazy concept that they did. It's crazy that they're actually suing some people for it.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

It's it's real interesting.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

So UWM is suing some people that they found using rocket mortgage stuff. Uh-huh. It's crazy. I don't think I just don't see that their contract is gonna hold up. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

I don't know, since 2021 and we're in 2026.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

I I guess. I guess. Okay, cool. So so, anyways, yeah, so that's kind of what's what's happening. And what's also crazy, which maybe people don't know, is that so when you buy a house or when you get a loan, most of them do not have prepayment penalties, right? So if you get an FHA loan or a conventional loan, if you go ahead and refinance, you know, it's there's no cost to you. Yeah, or pay off your loan really. There's no issue, yeah. But from a mortgage broker's perspective, if my client buys a house or gets a loan and within six months goes and refinances or sells that house and gets rid of the loan, most companies I would say about like 90% I would have to repay my commission.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

That's that's also wild to me.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Like that is just like a I just so it's not a cost to my client, but it is a cost to me.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Well, for sure. So then it comes down to So now you're having to warn your clients, hey, please don't please don't pay off your home in the next six months. Or if you are, use me so that it at least evens itself out, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Uh yeah. So like for instance, let's say a client bought and for some reason interest rates were like 8% and like within like three months they drop to like 4%. I'm not gonna advise my client not to refinance. Sure. All I ask is that they use me again.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Okay, but then it balances out. You are it's not balancing out though. You're you're still getting paid 50% what you should be getting paid. 50 is better than zero. I know, but what I'm saying is I had to pay back before. This it sucks. It it there it's a flaw in the system. Yeah I'm I'm upset for you for the flaw in the system. I know, I know. I mean, I hear what you're saying, and you're trying to make the best, you're living in the world that you are handed right now. But I'd still I hate it for you, Ted.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Um so anywho, so I feel like I've given you a lot of information outside of UWM, but also inside within. This is good, this is good, I'm liking it. But why do why do I like UWM? Um so whenever you work with a lender, we have a we have a dedicated account executive. So it's usually the person that takes my phone calls, takes my emails, you know, tries to razzle dazzle me to continue using their company, right? So with UWM, I currently have an AE named Jake. Shout out, Jake. You're you're awesome. Love ya. Just had his second kid. Just had a second kid. They're doing amazing. Yeah, yeah. So uh Jake's great, and essentially his job is to keep us happy. Okay, keep us happy and keep us using them, right? So whenever they roll out new tools or new programs, he's the one who's calling me to let me know. When I have a question about something, I'm texting him or calling him and he's getting back to me. You know, things like that. Um, it's nice having someone like that. When I did a conference, uh Lori and I sponsored a conference in LA last year. He came out to LA and he helped us set up everything for it. Seriously? Yeah. Oh, that's cool. So, like above and beyond. Yeah, yeah. Um, pre-2020, people, a lot of AEs were flying out to visit us to like talk to our team and pay for our lunches and things like that. Obviously, that's slowed down since COVID. Um, they also have really cool tools that I personally like. So credit reports are a really big cost to mortgage brokers. Um, you know, I think it's like $32 for a single soft pull, one bureau pool right now. So there's there's soft pull and there's hard pull. So a a three-bureau full pull usually costs me about $140.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Um you usually do soft pulls before you do your hard pull.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

And I usually do a one bureau soft pull, so that's $170 as a whole.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

On top of everything else. And again, that's the thing I do for my clients, whether they follow through or not, right? I'm not charging my clients for that. Um, what UWM has done is they've made free credit reports, meaning that it's not charged to the borrower and it's not charged to me.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

And so that's that you can use for like the soft in in replacement of the soft pull. Of the hard pull. Oh, of the hard pull.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

That's great. So that made me instead of having $170, it's now just $32 when I use them. So that's pretty nice. That's very nice. Um, they have a home value estimator tool. So, you know, for sometimes with refinances, I can use that in place of an actual appraisal. Okay. So that's also cost savings. Appraisals cost usually about $600, $600 to $1,000, depending on. And so that's saving the client money there. Uh, we have something called Track Plus, which is their in-house uh uh title in escrow. And I can't I can use them for purchases, but like doesn't make as much sense. Doesn't make as much sense, especially because usually the listing agent picks who they pre-escrow with. Um, but for my refinances, it's saving by clients like a thousand to two thousand dollars on fees. So I mean it's a it's a good savings. Yeah. Um another thing they really I really like.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Have you so yeah, have you ever like ran the numbers of how much a client could save with track plus for a uh purchase?

SPEAKER_02 31:07

No.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

I would be really curious. Maybe you and I can talk about that once. I would just like to compare apples to apples and see what that would look like. Yeah, absolutely. Like who knows? Maybe I mean I'm here to save my clients money and streamline the process. Absolutely. Look at that.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Just want to just um another thing I really like what they do is I can do TBD files. So they UWM has gamified the system. So within their system, I log in, they have it set up like a freaking video game, and my little ADHD brain loves it. So I get points. If you watch this video, you get these points. If you close your file within a certain uh if you get clear to close within a certain amount of time, you get points.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

They give you little awards too, right? Like you are cleared to close in two days.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Yeah, they give me a little rewards. Well, you get the little audience. It's a good game. Yeah. And these points, I can use them to help my client. So when I use them, it can be used to have my client, my client's uh file get moved to the top of the order in the underwriting review. So, like, let's say like straight-on gamification. It is gamification. I'm like, oh, I can use these points to then put it to the top of the pile so mine's reviewed in the next hour. So I can have a clear to close same day. I love that. And things like that, right? Or I can use those points for other things like file review. So let's say I have a client and they own multiple businesses and I know how to review taxes. Do I want to review taxes to that detail? No. Also, it doesn't matter how if I know how to do it, it matters if the underwriter knows how to do it, right? So instead of me spending hours upon hours, I'll get my idea of what it should be. And then I will send all of the tax documents to the underwriter to them review it and let me know what they're calculating for income. Because then I know for a fact that when this client goes to buy their house, it's not a question of if the underwriter's doing it correctly because I've already had it reviewed, and if they didn't do it correctly, I can fight them back and forth beforehand. Yeah. So, or if a client has a work visa for the US and I don't know if that specifically will work for a certain type of loan, I can have it reviewed beforehand.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

But you have to use your points for that.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

I have to use my points for that. Yeah, well, I have like 88,000 points already. Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

But do most do most brokers have 88,000 points? Maybe.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

I don't know what they have. Um, another thing that I can use I can use points for, which I don't really have to because I'm at a certain tier with them now, is lock extensions. So when you go to buy a house, your a lock extension matters. So if you you usually want to lock for just enough time, but not too little time because for every day that you extend a lock, it's more expensive.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

So you want your client to get the best interest rate possible. So when I'm locking your loan and you have a 22-day contract, I want to lock it as close to 22 days as possible. Yeah. Now, sometimes things happen. Let's say you have an FHA loan and you find out that your house has uh some dry rot that needs to get taken care of before it can close. Well, that might push out escrow another seven days. I can get that for free rather than charging my client.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

And that's saving them $1,800, if not more. Yeah. So those are all things that I've personally really liked about UWM. Another really big thing, I'm actually going there next week. They hold conferences, free conferences. So, on top of the free conferences, they hold classes. So if I want to learn how to be an underwriter, because having that under my tool belt is really important. That would be so cool. I can go there and go to a class. And guess what? They have free food for me, they have a hotel for me to stay at, they have all these different things. So I can just go there, focus on learning, and then come back and do better.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

Yeah. Um, and do they do you get like some sort of certification? Like, do you get some sort of like like if you took a underwriter class, would you um would you get like some sort of underwriter certification?

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Probably, but what am I gonna do? Just hang that in my house for me to stay out? No. I always think that when I have things, I'm like, like I have this like glass award and it just sits next to my TV in my house. Like no one sees this. It's just for me.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

I always wonder, like, what does Beyonce do with her with her awards? They just sit in the in the bathroom? Like, I don't know. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

I don't have a giant office that people visit. That's true. Um, so anywho, that's really cool. And in the last few years, they've started offering realtor classes. Yes. And so if you are a partner of someone who uses UWM, they can take you on an essentially an all-expense paid trip to Pontiac, Michigan. Which is like What a treat, what a dream. What a treat, what a dream. 45 minutes from Motown. Um and you can go there for two days and learn about different things available to you, learn about different uh like social media, or even just meet real estate agents from around the country and get their insight. Yeah. And then it's something that's a benefit to my real estate agent partners. It's a benefit to me because my agents know that I'm able to connect them with tools like that. And it's a benefit to the clients because then they're getting that quality as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

What did you think about your trip up? Yeah, so you took me out there. I did. And that was like really special and really fun. I um I had a blast. So it was as if so UWM's campus is massive. So essentially We have the longest uh sky bridge in the United States. Yeah, well, it gets freaking cold there, so they probably need I mean, because they their campuses take up multiple city blocks.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

It's four, it's four, it's um the one block, they take up all four corners of it now. Yeah, yeah. So what is that? Four blocks, essentially.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Four four city blocks worth of campus. It's like if you were as an agent, it's like if you if I were to be invited to uh Apple's campus and just got to hang out with the people who work at Apple for a couple of days. Like that's how it felt, and it was really, really fun. So, you know, first of all, it was just a fun, it's it's nice to get out and network, it's nice to go take a trip. So loved that. And um, the campus is really cool. Like you go to take a tour of the campus, you go to see, they've got basketball courts, they have multiple cafeterias. I they have like game rooms. I was gonna say, I feel like there were sleeping pods, but there weren't sleeping pods. That's that's Apple, but I it just it feels like they're like, you know, they would have all of the innovative stuff there. Yeah, yeah, game rooms, and then as you're taking your tour, you get to go and see the underwriting like wing the block, and you just walk into this room, and you almost can't see the last person and the last desk on the other side of the room because it is so vast. Yeah, it's like it's huge, and all these underwriters are working on different files and all those things. And then I got to meet your account manager, and they take us out to dinner, and then they are uh like building that um like building that relationship with us. So now I trust him, I trust you using UWM because I've met them and I've seen how they operate and how they work, which is incredible. And then what what else did we do? Oh, then we had our actual class, which you know, I mean, it's just like all real estate conferences. It's like, okay, the classes are fine, but it's more about the networking and the experience. So, first of all, networking with all of the agents that you you guys took with you. Like, I'm like Darcy. I'm you Darcy was on that trip, and she and I are great buddies now, you know, when it comes to agent, like doing agent stuff in uh in locally. And then again, this is because you took me before we were like you were showering in my house close. But um, like we went to the bathroom and you just like struck up conversation with another group, another two people that were there, and it was another agent with her lender that brought her, and I friended them on Facebook, and you know, now I have these the a lender and agent partner in Washington, and so it was just a really, really cool experience. But I mean, my getting to go out there is one of the reasons I wanted to do this episode, knowing that you're about to go back out too, kind of reminded me. But I didn't really understand what UWM was, I didn't understand how what how wholesaling worked until I I got to go and experience it. And it was really, really awesome to be a part of that. And so And it really is like a if you know you know.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Yeah. Because as a lender, when I call listing agents, sometimes they flat out ask me and like, who are you planning on sending this loan to? That's a good question. I get asked that quite regularly. Yeah, who are you who are you thinking about sending this loan to? And I'm like, well, you know, I have a few different options, and then they're like, Yeah, but but who are you really thinking? And I'm like, all right, this I'm I'm considering sending it to UWM. And they'll be like, okay, good. So it's been pre-underwritten. And I'm like, yeah. They're like, okay, cool. And honestly, it's really reassuring to a lot of people. Yes. Because they, like I said, because of my relationship with them, I on top of them just being quick, my files are reviewed same day.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Like, I can if I do need it done faster, I can get it pushed to the front of the line and how to re have it reviewed within the two hours. Like they're working at 5 a.m. our time. So loans, I can get pre-approvals done before I even wake up for the day to start working.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Also, it's Michigan, so they don't really have like as good labor laws as California. No, sometimes they uh work longer hours than we do here too. Yeah, that's all right.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Sorry, sorry, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

But we're gonna take advantage of it.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

Yeah. Um, but from a client's perspective, they have a lot of really cool things too. So that's why I know I'm doing well when I send a client there. So personally, when I bought my house last time, I wanted it to go through UWM. Because my my loan is currently held by UWM. Okay. They didn't sell it off. They so UWM recently changed their thing. They're not selling off any of their loans currently. Really? Yeah. That's huge too. Because their thing was that when a loan gets sold to another company like Mr. Cooper or things like Chase Bank, those clients in instantly start getting called.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Yes. Right. Wells Fargo, ours when we after we purchased our home and then it got sold to Wells Fargo, and then Wells Fargo.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

But it also makes people nervous because when they find out that their loan is sold and they're not used to this is their first time buying a house, they're like, why? Why is my loan sold?

SPEAKER_00 41:45

So it was not only that, but then you're like, I just figured out who I was supposed to send my money to, and now six weeks later, you're changing all this on me.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Yeah. So they're not selling their loans currently.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Okay. Um like we're testing this out, see how it goes.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Yeah. Okay. Okay. So they're not selling any of their loans anymore to the open market. That's interesting. They have live customer service, which I really like as well.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

I really, I will tell you guys, I pretty I say a pretty cool-headed person, but when I call like Best Buy or something, and it just continues to be a robot talking to me, and I cannot I had to call my pest control company this last week because they said they were coming and they didn't come and they didn't tell me they weren't coming, they didn't come. When I called, AI customer service picked up. It didn't sound robo call. It sounded like a person, but I could tell it was AI. And she was like, Oh, um, let me see how I can help you with that. And I was just like, Oh god. Oh no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

My head starts, my ears get hot, I get so angry. And when someone's calling their mortgage company, you're not calling because something good is happening.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

No, you're calling because you're stressed. I've heard you call the customer service line before.

unknown 43:06

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

I call them. Call them all the time.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Yeah. They actually just called me.

unknown 43:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Um, another thing that they recently did was if you are a renter out there, you probably already heard of this. If you're not a renter, you might not have. There's a company called Built. Have you heard of Built?

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Uh isn't that a isn't that a workout company? Like a workout clothing company.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Maybe there's another one called Built. But this one is called Built. Okay, tell me. And I have friends, and they were telling about it because at their rental property. Essentially, if you pay for your mortgage through your built card, it gives you points that can be used towards gamifying. They're gamifying paying your rent. So they gamified paying your rent. So you can use this. So if you pay through built, it'll g build you points that you can then use towards either getting like you can save up your points to like use towards paying your mortgage in the future for what for. A payment, you can use it towards getting discounts on certain things. Like you can build points to get credit for like get a cred get a gift card for a certain restaurant. UWM is now utilizing that for their mortgage payments. So if you choose to pay your mortgage through the built program, you can actually build points.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

So it was for renters, but now it's also being used to homeowners. Yeah. That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

I know, I know. So I feel good when I send a client to UWM. Yeah. I I don't worry about their client experience. And guess what? If they have a bad client experience, I can call UWM. I send enough loans there that they will listen.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

Like Lori, uh, we're going out to this trip. Lori just called out to be part of a beta test for a new program. Nice. And so we're going to go to that while we're out there. And so like it's nice because even though they're a large company, they take our input into consideration.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

That's what I'm saying is as an outsider, as an agent, they really value relationship.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

So, but anywho, I I know it's really weird that we're spending an episode fangirling about one company, but like I said, whatever UWM does, other companies tend to follow. And so knowing who they are, knowing what they're doing is really important to me, and it's really important for me to educate others because even if you're not directly using them, what they're doing is affecting you. So another cool thing that's currently going on, and I have it going on until the until June 1st, I no, June 30th? June 1st? I think it's June 1st. Um, is that we are offering uh a 1-0 lender buy down. So a temporary rate buy down is something that means that we're gonna lower your interest rate, quote unquote, for like a certain period of time. So a 1-0 buy down means that we're lowering your interest rate by 1% for the first year. And usually how that works is usually you get that credit and it sits in an escrow account, and then whatever the difference in the interest rate would be in payment, it's pulled out monthly to cover that portion, right? So usually that's covered by the seller. You get a seller credit to cover that. But right now, instead of that, UWM is offering it as a lender credit.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

And so right now, if you are looking, and I'm just spitballing here, I'm not actually looking at numbers today, but um, let's say you were to get an FHA loan and it was gonna be 5.75%, that means that for the first year your payment is set at 4.75%. Which is amazing. Which is amazing. Yeah. Because then it lets you easily a little bit of breathing room. A little bit of breathing room for that first year, because let's all face it, the first year of owning your home is probably the most expensive. And then second of all, if the market changes, you can still refinance. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

I just looked it up and it's good until June 30th. So June 30th. Possibly if someone is listening to this, they might still be able to take advantage of it.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Yeah, and and here's the thing if you think that this might be something you're interested in, or you've been on the fence about purchasing and you just want to see what that would look like for you, reach out to me. I'm happy to go over the options with you. And again, maybe when it comes down to it, we might use UWM. We might not, but just knowing that this is one of the things in our tool about is really important.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Yeah, for sure. And it's I like I just had a buyer's consult this week, and I loved the phrase they used. They said they were home buying curious. They were home buying curious. They're like, I just want to, we just want to see like where everything stands. And and so I explained the pro the home buying process to them and then checked them over to you. Um, because I said, like, Lenny's gonna be the one to help you see how strong you are financially right now. And if there's anything that you need to do to make yourself stronger before we're ready to house hunt, she's gonna be able to help set that up for you, like give you your game plan so that we're ready to rock and roll when it's time.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

Yeah, love it. Yay! Yay, we did it. Thanks for listening to our episode. This has been really fun. It's it was a little geeky.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

It was really geeky, and I know that we usually we don't go heavy into like the real estate mortgage side of things, but I think it's important for you guys to stay educated on this too.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

The mortgage tea.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

The mortgage tea. There's always drama, and I'm always just eating my popcorn falling along with it. I love the drama.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Well, thank you, Amanda. I love you. I love you too, and thank you guys for listening. We will see you next time. Peace. That's Realty Check. Real lives, real estate, and the conversations most people do not want to have. We'll talk soon.