The Bridge Builders: Success Stories in Industry Collaboration

In this episode of Bridging the Gap, we are going to talk about how to build a bridge between the lab and the marketplace. We are excited to be joined by Dr. Gerard Cramer, a University of Minnesota faculty member and professor in the College of Veterinary Medicine. Dr. Cramer has successfully navigated the art of the "win-win" partnership between academia and industry and has graciously agreed to share his advice, and his stories with us.

Hosted by University of Minnesota Corporate Research Partnerships Managers Leza Besemann and Jason Stockman, "Bridging the Gap" is a practical podcast series designed to help university faculty navigate the complexities of collaborating with the private sector. 

Transcript

Jason Stockman 0:09

Welcome back to Demystifying University and Industry Research Partnerships. I'm your host, Jason Stockman, a corporate research partnerships manager here at the University of Minnesota. The supposed divide between academia and industry is often overstated. While one focuses on foundational research and the other on commercial viability, the most significant breakthroughs occur when these two perspectives intersect. Today we're going to talk about how to build a bridge between the lab and the marketplace. I'm excited to be joined today by Dr. Gerard Cramer, a University of Minnesota faculty member and professor in the College of Veterinary Medicine. Dr. Cramer has successfully navigated the art of the win-win partnership between academia and industry and has graciously agreed to share his advice and his stories with us today. So, Dr. Cramer, thank you for being here.

Dr. Gerard Cramer 1:00

It's a pleasure being here. So looking forward to the conversation.

Jason Stockman 1:04

Perfect. You know, maybe before we get started, could you tell us a little bit more about yourself?

Dr. Gerard Cramer 1:10

Yes. So I probably have a little bit atypical academic background, but um I'm originally from Canada. I went to veterinary school there, um, then worked in private practice as a veterinarian and then also ran a dairy farm at the same time. And then that was unsustainable. So I went and did graduate work as my off-farm income. Um, and then after I've completed, it's not quite, it's called a doctor of veterinary science, it's like a PhD. Okay. Um, and then I went and worked in private practice. I started my own business um for five years, and then I got injured, and then I got recruited basically to come to University of Minnesota in 2013. So I've been here since about 2013 working on research.

Jason Stockman 1:53

So we're gonna kind of jump right in here and talk a little bit about uh kind of the how, you know, really how you maybe first got involved with some of these industry partnerships. And, you know, from from our perspective, a lot of researchers want to work with industry, but but they don't always know where to begin. Um, so I was curious if you could share kind of you know how your first major partnership actually began. And you know, was there kind of a specific gap in your lab's funding? Was there a sudden interest in kind of looking at real-world applications of research, or did a company just reach out to you first? How did that how did that kind of happen for you?

Dr. Gerard Cramer 2:27

Um, so I think two things to note is like the industry, like we work in veterinary medicine, population medicine. So we do like when I did my grad work, there was a lot of industry partnerships already. So it's kind of the environment I was raised in as a researcher. Um, so it wasn't completely foreign to me. So I knew that was an avenue of funding. And the area I work in is also limited funding. So federal funding is hard to get, or even internal funding. So I was always looking for opportunities. And then because I work in an area that's pretty not like unlike other researchers, it's pretty focused. So I'm one of few people like in the US or North America that are there, which is I think similar for most researchers. Um, so I have a reputation within the industry. So my first major partnership with the University of Minnesota was a company that reached out to me that had a need. Um they needed to get a product registered in another country, and they had done some poor quality research with another researcher in Europe, and they took that to the federal agency. And this is, well, that's garbage. Find somebody better to do it. Um, and I had had interactions with this company, not always positive, um, but just interactions. So they knew my reputation as somebody that was not afraid to state his opinion, but they also knew that they could trust to do quality work. Um, and they reached out to me and said, Hey, would you be interested in this project? And I said, sure. And I gave them a budget that was, I think, outrageous. And they said yes. So then I went, okay. So that was kind of the first major one. But it was the company had a need, like the for me, like as far as if you look at industry partnerships, the company had a need. Sure. I was willing to do it for X amount of dollars. And that basically the win for me was I had enough, I put enough in the budget to pay for a postdoc.

Jason Stockman 4:12

Right.

Dr. Gerard Cramer 4:12

So that was my win. I got funding for a postdoc that was going to help do other things in my lab um to make that happen. And I said, I need that to make this work. And they said sure. And I'm like, okay, then I'm willing to do this project. It was a very intensive project. I would probably not do the same project again or would charge even more. Okay. But that's kind of how it came, right? There's, I think, the key component there. There was a need by the industry. I was one of the few people that could meet the need, and it was a win-win for both because we both had opportunities that we could use that we could gain from it.

Jason Stockman 4:45

So I guess as you think about kind of that first engagement, I know you've had many, but specific to this one, you know, was there, you know, any hesitations with kind of industry partnerships? And really the question behind the question there is, you know, a lot of researchers say things like, you know, am I selling out to industry? Am I going to lose some intellectual freedom? Um, you know, did you have any concerns like that before you started that that first industry collaboration?

Dr. Gerard Cramer 5:12

Um, I did and I didn't, I guess. Um, I did because the company, like they I'd had conversations with them before and we had some disagreements where they said, I don't care about research data, I have marketing data. When I said your product I don't think works. Um, and they said, Okay, we think it does because marketing says it does. So then I said, prove it to me. Um, so eventually they came to me and we tried to prove that works. And I had to eat my words, the product does work when we tested it formally. Um, so but in a specific scenario, but that was so that was the hesitation was just the interactions I had with the company. Okay. Um, and I know people inside the company said when I presented the offer, the CEO fell off his chair. Okay, and but they said we need to do this. But then I the reason I didn't have a hesitation is because um the contract that SPA has basically protects your academic freedom, right? There says it's okay, you can publish this information, sure. The company can look at it, and there's no restrictions on what you can publish. So that allows me to say, okay, we can evaluate it, and whatever the results, you as the researcher can still put that out there. Okay. And the way we structured is I provided the study design and everything else. Like the company says, okay, this is what we want. But as a researcher, you still have input into the design. It's not like you're saying do this, and if the results suck, then it won't work. It's true. That's all protected. So that's where I felt comfortable saying, okay, we're gonna do this. There's a win for the company, there's a win for me, and I feel my reputation is still there because it's it's protected really by the university contract that they have with the company itself.

Jason Stockman 6:52

Okay. Did you um I mean, obviously, there's sometimes some culture shock between kind of how academia operates and how industry operates? You know, a lot of times, you know, academics like to go very deep into research and very process oriented, whereas, you know, industry often wants an answer by Tuesday, let's say. Um how did you kind of navigate kind of those different perspectives in terms of timelines? And was that ever an issue?

Dr. Gerard Cramer 7:18

Um yes, um, I think it's realizing, like because of I guess my background in some of that industry stuff, I was aware of the timelines um and the pressure to do that. But when I do the projects, I always do okay what the company wants to do. And then I try to fill the need because it's still in an area that I'm working in, right? So I can piggyback other projects along with it to fill the more in-depth part that I'm interested in, right? So I wasn't I was interested for the industry to say, okay, does this product work yes or no? But we did some other stuff related to the project that filled other needs or other research questions that we as a lab had. Okay, what's the impact of this disease on XYZ or how does the disease progress? That thing. So that's how we kind of manage the researchy aspect, but the company still got their data and the timeline that they want. And because the area working, it's a long-term timeline, anyways, because the disease progresses slowly. So they were aware of what it was gonna be. So that part, I think, like once you make everybody aware what it takes, there's like it's still gonna be faster than an internal grant. Like, there's no no-cost extensions usually. It's like, hey, we want this information because marketing is asking for us in a year from now.

Jason Stockman 8:37

So gotcha. Perfect. You know, so if you think about, you know, maybe beyond just this example, thinking about kind of industry partnerships as a whole, and and if you were to share kind of secrets to success, you know, um what do you think researchers should be looking for when kind of vetting out a potentially industry part industry partner? And you know, how would you potentially distinguish between a company that's just looking for, you know, in an inexpensive consultant versus one that really wants a true research collaboration? What um what advice could you give researchers on that? Um it's a great question. I think I would argue um going to university is like finding an inexpensive consultant is probably not those don't exist. Um but yeah, I think as as far as like figuring out companies, find ones that are aligned with what you want to do, right? Where you they realize that you're doing it to help the company, but also to work on your own research program. Like most companies realize that I've worked with that realize that you're doing stuff on top of it. And as long as you're open and upfront about it, like companies that are willing to accept that, saying and that they're interested in it, right? So, okay, well, you're gonna do this for us, and you tell them I'm gonna do this on top of that, and then so companies that are willing to accept that and say, Okay, we want that because it's associated with the University of Minnesota, right? So have companies approach me saying, Okay, we want you to do it because when they put this product, this study was done, evaluated by the University of Minnesota, right? By Dr. So and so. So for researchers, I think the advice would be like find companies that are aligned with your vision of what happens, right? Because most of us work at least I imagine there's a greater good that you're working towards, right? So for me, it's the dairy industry. We want to provide evidence-based stuff for the dairy industry. Yeah. Um, so whatever that is for you, find companies that are aligned with that vision or are willing to say, okay, this is what you're trying to accomplish in the industry. Part of that is evaluating the company or doing R&D for the company to make that goal, but part of it is to do stuff on top of it. And that sometimes that leads to further work potentially. Yeah, no, that's great. Um, kind of along those same lines, you know, obviously you mentioned kind of defining success and and whatnot. You know, we we see a lot of times, you know, a company might be most interested in a product, maybe it's intellectual property or even a patent type thing, whereas a lot of researchers are looking to publish, right? Um did you have to kind of align goals at the beginning of any of the projects that you've done to kind of create that win-win scenario? And is there any advice you'd have around that?

Dr. Gerard Cramer 11:19

Um to be honest, I haven't, but that's probably more me personally because my metric isn't publish per se. I'm not a tenure track professor, so that helped from that aspect. I could see how that is. Um, but other people that like in my group that we work with or in our group, um, that's always part of it, right? Saying in the contract, it says we're gonna publish this information and like being upfront about it, like this is the currency that we have, right? Saying, okay, the currency we have is publications, we're gonna put a master's student on it, we're gonna put a student on, and their currency is a paper. Um, so as long as they're aware of that, I think that is usually not an issue. As long as it aligns with, they still get their end result. And they realize, like I think as a researcher, you have to realize that your timeline for getting a paper out is different than the timeline that the company has. Like your paper is gonna be out way after the product. Like you've given the company a final conclusion, right? Saying this is the conclusion. And if you're gonna go with the timeline of your paper, they're not gonna go for it, they're not gonna be very happy. You need to go with their timeline, okay? They need a final conclusion. Sure. And you're like, hey, what about this analysis? What about that analysis? They want an answer and a good enough answer at times, sure, right? And say, Okay, we stand behind it, and you know that okay, if I dig a little deeper, this decimal point might change, but the conclusion isn't gonna change, right? I mean, that's what gotcha important to realize.

Jason Stockman 12:46

Yeah, that's great. So, you know, kind of in your experience, uh, maybe it's impossible to answer this, but is there kind of a single most important factor that that has made partnerships work for you? Um, or is it kind of a combination of things? I mean, I'm thinking about the funding, is it the tech, or is it just the the research individuals involved and kind of collaborating together? What's the most important factor to success?

Dr. Gerard Cramer 13:11

Um, I think reputation and relationships. Okay. I think the relationships you have with the company or the reputation you have as the researcher in the industry that you're working in. So for me, I have a reputation as somebody that's passionate about my area and that does quality work, I think. Um, so people, companies come to me and say, hey, we want you to do this. Um, and then it's building a relationship and being honest with them and realizing that what they're asking for my experience, the companies what they're looking for is an honest opinion of what they're trying to do. And if you're honest with them right from the start, that like that relationship gets built, right? Sure. And people that don't appreciate that honesty, those relationships, like then the company that's in pursuit, if they're looking for somebody to rubber stamp a product or a research idea or a patent, then that doesn't work. So I think having the reputation and the relationship or building the relationship, and that takes time to build the relationship too, right? And there's a commitment to you to actually like invest some time into it, which with all the other things we do is also you have to be prepared for saying sometimes you're just managing a relationship or answering this email, right? There's other emails you might get university emails, and sometimes you get a company email, and I'm gonna answer the company email first as opposed to other emails.

Jason Stockman 14:31

You know, when you talk about the workload and kind of the lift of these, um, have you had projects, i think you maybe mentioned this, but did you have students involved in any of the projects that you've done? And if so, you know, how how did that change the experience for those students within your labs?

Dr. Gerard Cramer 14:48

Um I'm not sure it changed the experience because a lot of the work we do, I guess, is all not always, but a majority in the projects have a company or industry partnership already involvement. Um, but I think it's actually an opportunity for them, right? Because not all students are going to become academics. Sure. Right. So it does give them opportunity to build relationships with industry partners. Maybe if it's not that partner, they might still okay, well, they've talked to other companies involved or something like that. So it gets them going to conferences and things like that. So I think I think it's a beneficial aspect because not all our students become academics. Sure. And so having that exposure to working with companies or understanding what's involved, I think is a bonus for them.

Jason Stockman 15:32

Yeah, for sure. That's really, really good advice. Uh appreciate that. You know, um, you know, the other side of things, I know not all partnerships are are perfect, right? Whether it's internal, external, those types of things. But did you have any moments where any of your partnerships kind of hit a snag, or maybe there was some some challenges and you you might have to pivot? Um, what types of things um did you do to resolve those types of things? Or even if you haven't, like what do you think might be important if you're find yourself in one of those situations?

Dr. Gerard Cramer 16:06

Um, I guess we have like I would call them minor ones, but to me, it comes down to communication saying, hey, this is an issue. Sure. We need to work with it. Um, I had one partnership where we're trying, like the partnership was really a collaboration, trying to get extra funding, not necessarily federal funding, but funding from another nonprofit agency. And it's the grant keep getting rejected, right? So they like come back to them and say, Okay, you're providing seed funding for this project because they had bigger goals. Will you do another year? Will you do it? Like, we had to do this three times, right? So, but just having the communication, okay, this is where we're going. Are we still aligned? Is it still gonna fit? Does that timeline fit? And like, yeah, yeah. But just having that open communication and having the meetings to say, okay, this is where the vision's going, this is the feedback we got. How do we change it? How I like how do we adjust? What's your vision for it? So sure. It comes back to I think that relationship and the communicating with them to say, okay, we hit the snag, how do we deal with it?

Jason Stockman 17:05

Sure. Makes sense. So, are are you up for doing a quick lightning round, kind of a quick fire round of questions here? You're fire away. So, you know, if if if you were newer to this, uh how would you suggest uh what you know, or I should say, what's the best way to find or meet industry partners?

Dr. Gerard Cramer 17:24

Um, go to industry-oriented conferences. Okay. Right? You're likely going to conferences already. Go to one that has, like in your field area, has an angle that has industry involvement. So then you can meet and just strike up conversations at the booth to say, hey, I'm working on this, and they might not be the person to talk to, but they might take your name and say, Oh, that's interesting. You should talk to R&D or you should talk to this technical director. I think that's the key because that's where you're going to see products that they're marketing. Or like, oh, this is company's working on this. I have this complementary thing that potentially could fit with it, right? So it gives you ideas and it gives helps you to make connections. So that would be my one piece of advice.

Jason Stockman 18:08

Perfect. It's always about networking, right? Yes, it's exactly what it is. Go where the researchers are. You know, that's a a lot of the work we do in the CEC is exactly just that is going where the researchers are and making those connections. So great to hear that there's um the same thing going on with the researchers. So um what is one thing you wish you knew 10 years ago about partnering with industry, or maybe even five years ago. We don't necessarily have to time stamp it, but you know, is there something that maybe you wish you knew before you started out?

Dr. Gerard Cramer 18:40

Um probably that they're more patient than you think they are, right? Yes, they have timelines and marketing drives a lot of things, and that I think you have to walk in with that, eyes. But I think if you're honest with them, they're probably more patient than you realize. Because there's been times like, oh, this is never gonna work, or like we hit the snag and it's gonna take longer, and they're like, okay, well, things happen, right? Things happen in the industry world too, and they're fully aware of it, right? It's just when you have radio silence and you don't let them know, I think that's when there's issues. But if like, hey, we hit this snag, like one of them was all the water froze in the project we're doing. Okay, well, okay, how do we make this happen? How do we work around it? That type of thing.

Jason Stockman 19:20

Sure. So um, you know, you mentioned about finding industry partners, making those connections, making those relationships, you know. So once once that happens and it really comes time to kind of have that that technical innovation discussion of like what's possible, um what do you think could be some common mistakes that faculty might make when pitching to a company that they should be aware of?

Dr. Gerard Cramer 19:43

Too much information. Okay. Right? It's not like when we write a federal proposal, like it's 18, 20, 30 pages. Right. I wrote a proposal to a company like a couple months ago, and it was a one-pager. Okay. It's this is what I want to do, this is what you need to market, like to get your product out there. Right? It's one page saying, This is what I think you need, this is my approach, and this is what it's roughly gonna cost. And it was one page. Perfect. Right, yeah, exactly. The company's like, oh, we really like that, and then you can hash out the details and what it looks like, right? But you as a researcher probably know, okay, I can do this. This is like, and not they're not gonna hold you to any of that stuff, right? But when you're pitching, it's like, okay, this is the idea. I want to do X, this is the value proposition, this is the like the end result, this is how your industry partners are gonna see value. Yep, and this is how we do it. Yeah, and it doesn't, you don't need to go into detail saying we're gonna do XYZ and this type of analysis, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They just want to know how's it how are we gonna have the win, yep, and what's it gonna cost, right? So it's the shorter and brief, the better. Like I present a diet, I'm like, they're like, hey, we really like that, right? It's just keep it short and sweet.

Jason Stockman 21:04

Yeah. Now I'm laughing a little bit because we always talk about, you know, when you're interviewing for a job in industry, we were always taught to keep your resume to one page, right? Don't go on and on and on and on. So it's it's very different than than the academic world where you want to highlight all of your papers and all of your research and all of your degrees, which is really great, but for industry, it's uh it's definitely a different experience for sure. Yeah. Um, last question for you. I I do appreciate all your time today, but you know, I know you're relatively new to the corporate engagement center. Um, do you have ideas on how we as an organization can best support faculty that are interested in pursuing industry partnership opportunities and maybe don't have the experience that you have? Is there are there things that come to mind that you think we could do more of to support maybe some of the newer faculty to this experience?

Dr. Gerard Cramer 21:54

Um just having conversations with you and Leza, it's like a coaching, I think, of what if you're coming from a Truly academic background, I think it's a bit of a culture shock. Sure. Right. To say, like, okay, they don't want the detail of my analysis or how what assay I'm going to run, right? They might ask me about it and I should be able to answer that. But when I'm pitching it to them. So I think just I think providing that type of advice. Um, and for people that like saying like for them, let's say I have work in this area, okay, finding potential partners if they're like if they're not necessarily tied to the industry, because some of them are pretty inward focusing. Yeah. So okay, these are potential industries that are your foundational stuff it could potentially lead to, right? Saying, okay, well, what are the partners that might exist, right? Because I think I've had other like I've had people not necessarily from the corporate engagement office, but like a research office saying, Hey, we have this partner that's looking for X, right? So if they know that, bring in partners to each other, right? And you can say, okay, well, that doesn't fit or it does fit. So I think those would be two areas where could potentially help.

Jason Stockman 23:02

Perfect. Well, I can put a plug in for the corporate engagement center. We're more than happy to do all the things you just mentioned. So, you know, Dr. Cramer, it's been incredibly fun and enlightening to talk to you today. I do want to thank you uh for sharing both your thoughts and experiences with our fellow researchers here at the university. Um, our goal is to help share insights and experiences to help anyone in industry partnerships feel better equipped uh to really go out there and obtain their own. And I do feel like we we definitely started and hopefully accomplished a big chunk of that mission today. So um just want to thank you for being here today.

Dr. Gerard Cramer 23:39

You're welcome. It was a fun conversation.

Jason Stockman 23:41

Great. So, everybody out there, you know, thank you for joining us today on Demystifying University and Industry Research Partnerships. You're listening to Bridging the Gap, where we help build the bridge one partnership at a time.