Not just a Hairdresser | Presented by Ally from The Beauty Grail

6. How Mackenzie Hayward Built Attache Line from One Simple Salon Problem

• Ally • Episode 6

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After 10 years behind the chair, Mackenzie Hayward was tired of balancing bowls, bottles and brushes while delivering premium colour services. She searched for a tool that would make life easier for hairdressers working solo. When she couldn't find one, she decided to build it herself.

It wasn't an overnight success. The journey involved years of prototyping, countless manufacturer rejections, rebuilding her confidence after a major weight loss journey, and learning how to step out from behind the chair and become the face of her own brand.

In this episode, Ally sits down with Mackenzie Hayward, founder of Attache Line, to unpack the reality of creating a physical product from scratch. From engineering and manufacturing in Australia to building a brand through community, boundaries, and genuine customer care, this conversation is full of practical lessons for anyone dreaming of creating something of their own.

In this episode, we cover:
- How one frustrating salon problem became the idea behind Attache Line
- Why it took nearly six years to bring the product to market
- The realities of designing, prototyping and manufacturing a product in Australia
- Why she originally wanted Attache to be a faceless business
- Building a product while working full-time behind the chair
- The biggest mindset shifts from hairdresser to product founder
- Why customer service has become one of Attache's biggest competitive advantages
- The importance of community over traditional influencer marketing
- Lessons learned from Meta Ads and paid marketing
- Creating boundaries with social media to avoid burnout

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- The Beauty Grail | Online Education: https://bit.ly/4eLNmRG
- Timely: New customers receive 50% off for 3 months when you use the CODE: TBG: https://bit.ly/4vgVCzc
- Natalie Anne Haircare: https://bit.ly/3Sa0uaE
- Kaine Vakai x Jadore Hair Supplies: https://bit.ly/4uO5W0E
- Fone King: Get 15% off all purchases when you use the CODE: BEAUTY15: https://bit.ly/4xw8mDq



SPEAKER_04

Men told me I should create a mold at home and have a craft a noon. And it was a lot. I had to roll my eyes at that one. We were turned away so much, like it was a real like test of perseverance.

SPEAKER_03

Have you ever had someone in your career call you just a hairdresser? Or sometimes you might struggle with your own internal dialogue? Welcome to the Beauty Grail Podcast, the place where the industry's most curious, ambitious, and creative artists come to learn, grow, and stay inspired. I'm Ali, founder of the Beauty Grail, and in each episode we sit down with artists, educators, and innovators shaping the future of the hair and beauty industry. From behind the chair to behind the brand, these are the stories, tools, and conversations designed to elevate you and your career. Because we all know you're not just a hairdresser. You're a business owner, a creative, an educator, a therapist, a content creator, and a chemist. The name of this podcast was inspired by our friend Natalie Ann. Some of you may remember she kicked off a social media series in 2025 called Not Just a Hairdresser. One of the biggest drivers behind creating the Beauty Grail was recognising that the industry has world-level talent, but not everyone has equal access to learning from them. What excites me is giving every hairdresser from regional towns to big cities access to the kind of education and mentorship that changes careers. Joining me today is Mackenzie Haywood, founder of Atashe Line. After 10 years in the hair industry, McKenzie set out to make her life easier whilst colouring at the basin. The dream was to design a highly functional basin tool, purpose engineered to streamline basin experience. Atache Line is engineered, designed, and manufactured right here in Australia and a global sellout product many times over. Welcome to the podcast, babe. Thank you for having me. What an intro. Gorgeous. I love to be a big hype girl for the intro. So it's beautiful. Thanks, babe. Now you've been in town for mainland activating Atarshay. Well done. The sand looked insane. Thank you. Yeah, it was gorgeous. We're really happy with it. Yeah, beautiful. Now, for anyone that doesn't know you or your story, can you please tell us how you got started in the industry and how you went from behind the chair to the idea of Atarshay?

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely. So I um was a classic creative in school that wasn't really doing so well with the education. And then we actually relocated from Sydney to Perth when I was 15. And I had to skip a year because our year groups were different. And my career's teacher and the person helping me with subjects was like, Well, you can't do any ATAR, I think you call ATAR in Perth, because you've skipped a year. So what do you want to do? And I was like, Well, not this. I think I want to be a hairdresser. And she was like, okay, we'll pick some subjects and go from there. And then she actually got me my first job as a hairdresser. And she was like, I've got this salon that has some weekend work, um, which I jumped at. And then after one term, they offered me an apprenticeship. Um, I was 15, and when I was 16, I signed my apprenticeship papers. So that's how I got into the industry. And then from there, I've worked in a few really amazing salons. I've had lots of brilliant opportunities. Um, my last salon was just my really good friend Jake and I. And yeah, we had no apprentices, we had no staff to help at the basin. And I just thought, there has to be a better way. Like we have to streamline this. There has to be something out there to make basin life easier. And I searched high and low and couldn't find it. So that's where the attache line was born. I made it myself. I love that. Yeah. So when how long ago was it that you had that spark of the idea?

SPEAKER_03

So the attache.

SPEAKER_04

So the first time the idea came to my mind was probably about six years ago. Right. Um, and I kind of did some online research and then was like nothing there, thought about maybe making it myself. I was like, too hard. And at that salon, we had lots of room around us to balance bowls and colour and things like that. Um, and then when I moved to ESOM, being just the two of us, beautiful, beautiful, minimalistic salon, there wasn't anywhere to do that. And I was telling Jake, I've had I had this idea years ago. Maybe someone's made something now. No, they haven't. And he was like, Well, you should do it. And I was like, No. And he was like, Yeah, you should. Like, why not? And then yeah, we just the balls started rolling from there. It was actually really thanks to his encouragement that that idea from five or six years prior was pushed to go further. Yeah. So yeah, it was really. So, what made you take the leap? Because six years ago, definitely a different area of my life. I had a lot more, I guess, confidence in myself and my abilities, but also my beautiful partner, my wife, Rebecca. She was really, really supportive. And it was actually her brother-in-law, he's an engineer, and he engineered the product for us. So he worked with us for two years to make it perfect. And I think without her support, her brother-in-law, Corey's support, and my good friend Jake, like it just wouldn't have got there without them really pushing me, pushing me to go for it. So yeah, I was really lucky to have people around me there.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. So six years ago, you first had the idea at the base. What was that timing-wise from the original idea to actually start saying, I need to give this a crack?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. So for me, I was just like so focused on behind the chair and the client. I never really had like a bigger picture. I wasn't, I didn't have a social media presence. I never had a want to be on social media. I've had a massive weight loss journey. So back then I was I was 130 kilos. So quite different. I definitely didn't want to be on camera. I definitely didn't want my name or face behind things. Um, I just liked the personal experience of me and the client behind the chair. So the thought of creating something that had my name and my face on it just felt really uncomfortable. And then in that period of time, I lost a substantial amount of weight. I built my confidence. Um, and still there's like that massive blockage there with like wanting to be on camera and making that transition. But um, yeah, I just knew if no one had done it in that time, like I need to do it and I'm gonna do it. So at the beginning I was like, it'll be a faceless brand. And then everyone was like, you cannot do that. Yes. So here we are.

SPEAKER_03

So how old is Atache now then? Atache is two years old. So we're still a baby. Yeah. So it sounds like based off that timeline, six years ago was the original idea. So it took you not saying it's a long or short time, but it was about two years from idea to execution. Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And where did the weight loss journey fit into that time frame?

SPEAKER_04

So the weight loss journey would have started about five years ago. Yeah. So um, and then it's, I mean, it's still a journey. It's always a journey for me. I think when you've been there, it's really, really hard to um shake it. And, you know, my whole life I had had weight issues. So for me, I actually had uh bariatric surgery, I had sleep surgery five years ago, and then yeah, I lost about 45 kilos from that, and then have continued to like grind and really like make health a priority, mainly because our industry, we're on our feet all day. So like your body is really, really important. And where I went wrong was I started in this industry at 15 and I did not prioritize myself at all, at all. So you'd have days where you maybe ate lunch at 11 a.m. or maybe you had out at 5 p.m. And by that time you're grabbing whatever you can get, easy. Um, so now I just do not have that standard at all. Like I eat five times a day, I meal prep, I make sure that I'm nourishing my body. It's so important. I hate the laugh and the joke in our industry about like all I had today was 17 coffees and nothing, and you know, five biscuits and here I am at 11 p.m. Because it's just so unhealthy. And my body was like, I had I have a back injury, I had problems with the knees, blah, blah, blah. So for me, the the health journey started to be able to have like longevity in our industry.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Do you think that played a part at all in your confidence to move forward with attache at the time? Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely. Like when I first thought of it, not a chance. Not a chance I was gonna do something like that. Um, even when I started making attache, like I said, I was it's a faceless brand. Like I'm not putting my face on that. Um, even my my personal hair, like Mackenzie Taylor hair, I was like not filming content there, absolutely not. Um, so yeah, the the journey has definitely been, and especially the attache line has pushed me out of my comfort zone to put face to camera. Um, and I I would not have done that six years ago.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, the chance. I'm laughing behind the faceless brand thing because I felt very much the same. It's a hard relate for me. Yes. Um, with the beauty girl. I very much thought I could do the same. I, you know, when I started the Beauty Girl, I had a two-year-old, you know, I was carrying baby weight, you know, all of those things. And um yeah, I it's a hard relate for me because I just felt exactly the same. And there were so many people that said to me, and Natalie Ann was one of those people. Yeah, where sometimes you just need to hear something you already know from someone that's willing to give it to you hard and far. Yeah. Which I'm sure Nat does. Yes, which she very much does. And she literally said to me, because she called me out on it and she said to me, Listen, people buy from people. I've heard that so many times. That's that's the way the world has always worked, and even more so now with social media. So you need to get over that pretty quickly if you really want to drive your brand forward.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely. I think that there would be a lot of people that relate to that, especially like there's an immense pressure in all industries now to show up online. And I think there'd be uh more people than we know that are uncomfortable with that concept and would prefer to hide, be behind the camera, not in front of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03

I want to talk about that a bit more. So, what are some of those things you've done with Atasha specifically around showing up in a way that's comfortable for you?

SPEAKER_04

So I guess what's comfortable for me is that I am authentically myself if I'm showing up for my brand. Like I'm not gonna put on a persona or be something I'm not. I think that just puts pressure if you're if you're a personality online and then a different person in face to face. I just think it puts so much pressure on you to maintain these different versions of yourself. So it's really important to me that I I just stay true to myself. Um, I like my wife by my side at times when doing things. I always wanted her by my side in the early days, and now like I'm here in Sydney with you by myself. So that's huge for me. Um, but yeah, just little things like that. I'm working with people that make me feel really comfortable as well. Like, you know, like yourself. Like we can just have a beautiful conversation day in, day out, and there's no pressure there. So there's no pressure to be anything but me. And that's what keeps me comfortable and happy for sure.

SPEAKER_03

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SPEAKER_04

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. That was one of my beautiful, beautiful clients in the salon was like, girl, you need more founder, mm-hmm, founder action. And she um actually really encouraged me to do that. So yeah. Thanks, Nina. Well, congrats to you. It's it's I love it.

SPEAKER_03

It's beautiful. Thank you. So we talked about that kind of timeline. Six years ago, you had the idea, Atasha was born two years ago. So there's about a four-year period there. Um, you've got a great network around you, it sounds like you've got a beautiful hype team. But was there something else that you saw happen in the industry where you like the industry really needs this, other than no one else producing the product? Were there any other kind of like light bulb moments?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I'm really glad you asked that actually, because absolutely I think we've all seen a big shift in our industry. A lot of people are going out on their own. Um, also, we're charging high-end prices for hair now, as we should. You know, we've undercharged in our industry and we've been underpaid for a long time. So we are delivering premium hair, and most of us are doing our whole service from start to finish. So myself, I do every, no one else touches my client. Everything's me. So if they're paying for a toner, they're paying me for a toner. And I thought, you know, so many people are doing that now. You don't have an apprentice holding your bowl. You don't have them, you know, balancing around. And I certainly don't want a bowl and a bottle clanging around at my basin's head when they're paying me a really premium price. So I thought, what, what a better time to create something like this when people are working solo. They need something that's going to help them to be able to create freely, hold all their tools at the basin, and also just like aesthetically make it look much nicer for our client as well.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So that was definitely the change. Our freelancers, renter space. Yeah. Yeah. And would you say that's your like ideal customer that you're servicing? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I would say freelancers are our ideal customer. I would also say your everyday conventional, fully staffed salon is our everyday customer because there's no reason why an apprentice wouldn't benefit from using the attache tray as well.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Make their life easier from the get-go.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think also like yeah, whether it's that one-to-one service that you're talking about that's happening a lot in that freelance space, even like those large format salons, like they got a lot of staff, they got a lot of product, they got a lot of bowls, there's a lot happening, there's a lot of moving parts.

SPEAKER_04

In those bigger salons, you actually often see like a junior stylist standing by a base and holding a bowl, a bowl, you know, and how like discriminating for them to that. Like they're they're standing there holding your bowl. Like, and also what a waste of a human that could be on the floor, or you know, what I'd rather have a junior shadowing me, watching me do hair and application, yeah. Standing there holding a bowl. So, you know, it puts a person back on the floor.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Or um, you know, even with your apprentice, even with your junior, they're not then having to try and cortort their bodies around the bowl, reach behind them to grab their colour. It's just a lot better for everyone.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I also think for speaking from a client experience, like the basin, um, you know, like the wash, the deep scalp, you know, the scrub, you know, like I for me going to the salon, apart from like getting the blow dry on the final reveal, like the basin is actually my favorite part of the whole experience. You and everybody else. So, you know, like from a client point of view, it does feel like very luxury when it's executed well. Do you know what I mean? When you think about like the bottle, the bowl like banging around, the water temperature, like how long they spend with you there, like how deep they go with the head, you know, all of those things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Have you ever had your head like back in a basin bowl and someone's brushing your hair and then they just drop the brush in the bowl? And that like loud for us, you actually don't really realize until it happens to you. And it's like really, like if you're a sensory sensitive person, that could really throw you off your kilter. Like that could take your relaxation away completely. So little things like that that we're so accustomed to, just like throwing your tools down in that ceramic bowl, it's actually like quite uncomfortable for your guest. Yeah. So yeah, you're right. It definitely does add a like another layer of luxury to that service.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. What did um attache look like in the early days? Like, what was the first version versus what it looks like now to use on?

SPEAKER_04

So funny. Like it was honestly like this big. It was so funny. The first and and everything we had to do so many prototypes. So, of course, you like print it, test it, print it, test it. The first one was like a surfboard, it was like a bookie board, it was so big. And it had like this, it was just a bowl hole, and then it had like this big square, like sort of indented panel on it, which was totally useless. Like, I don't even know what I was thinking with that. And the poor engineer Corey, it takes like 20 hours to print these things on a 3D printer when you're prototyping, and it would just be like it would come off and would be like, oh no, that's not it. Like, that's not good. And we did that, I can't even tell you how many times. On top of he lives in Melbourne, we live in WA. So he would then have to ship it to me and I'd test it and be like, oh no, that's not gonna work. I actually ended up sending him like multiple basins. His poor office, his poor wife was like full of basins because it was so hard logistically. Like he would go into all these local salons in Melbourne and like suss out, do measurements, ask if we could take a cast. I'd be doing the same here. And then eventually I ended up just like buying and sending him different basins and different brands so we could make sure it fit like all the Australian basin brands, essentially. I actually like never thought of the practicalities or the logistics of that until you've just said it out loud. Yeah, I'd be like going into Hair Mart with like a bag of like trays and being like, like trying like different. I don't know if we like ham grapping and we have it in W. Scrappy things you do with those flanging around on the basins. Like, yeah, it was really funny. But yeah, the difference, it's just it's come such a long way. Like, even things like getting it to be able to fit multiple basins, we had to have a swivel on the clip. So we had to like change that so many times to make it right. We had to have multiple clip sizes. Um, your brush hole, your toner bottle hole, it all just came along the two-year journey. Yeah, you learned so much in the early days, so you know it's really funny what your initial concept feels and looks like compared to where you end up.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, because it's the practicalities of like the idea in your head versus like what execution comes to life when you think about all those operational components. It can be very, very different. Very funny. So funny. What were some of the mindset mindset shifts that took you from stylist to product founder?

SPEAKER_04

Oh, that's a good one. I still struggle with it, to be honest. Um, I being a hairdresser is my life. I love it. Like I am not an influencer, I am not an online hairdresser, I am a hairdresser behind the chair every day, back to back. And I love my clients and I get instant satisfaction from doing a client. I know they're happy, and that makes me so happy. And I get that within an hour in a haircut or three to four hours of the colour. The online retail product-based business is so different because the customer experience is really drawn out. So, like obviously, they need to, I think the stats like they need to see your product like 17 times before they buy it. So you have to like really push, push, push for people to see you. And then they might finally buy it, and you have to wait that week for them to experience it. And you kind of every still now, like every order we get, I'm like, oh, I hope they like it. Like, and you just you get this pit of like unsureness compared to being a stylist, a hairdresser. I'm on the floor, like I'm sure of myself in that space. In this space, I'm not as sure as myself of myself. So, and even like yeah, building your relationships. You have I'm my relationships are with my client now in this space. I'm building relationships with hairdressers and and color brands, and it's just very different. So there's been a big, big mindset shift. I've had to get tougher. Um, I've had to be more sure of myself. Um, absolutely, I've had to back myself a lot more, a lot more.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Cause it is such a different um, like that self-gratification of like a stylist versus a founder. Just talking about that timeline, it is so different. So, like, how do you overcome that? Oh, it's harsh. Like, what things are you doing to overcome that?

SPEAKER_04

So, I a lot of self-talk, like I really try to like really talk myself into things. And again, like I said, I have a really beautiful support network who believe in me. And it, if I'm not believing in myself, I lean on those people for sure. Um, and and thankfully, our product has been really, really well accepted in the industry. And we've had a lot of beautiful positive feedback. And I think as time goes on, like we're uh we're only babies. Um, I think that'll build and the confidence will build and it'll come more naturally to me. Um, and every, you know, every month it does get easier and then it gets harder in other ways too. So it's just like an ever-evolving journey, really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Today's episode is proudly sponsored by Natalie Ann Haircare. When you spent years perfecting your craft and educating the industry, you don't just put your name on any product. You create something that reflects everything you stand for. That's exactly what Natalie Ann has done: a professional hair care range built on real expertise, designed for stylists who demand results, and clients who expect the best. And her latest launch, the sleek and smooth range, a smoothing balm and styling brush made for the flawless slipback styles. No flyaways, no crunch, just polished perfection. Discover the full NA range at Natalieanne.com. So, how did your week, like how are you juggling your week from stylist to attache, right? Because I think there are a lot of people out there like you that have a product idea and it's like, how do I get started, right? Or some what are some of those tangible things that you did in the early days to get started? And how are you structuring your week and like juggling the two? Because that's not easy. Yeah. Um, you know, it takes a lot of crit and determination to build something from the ground up, like even just talking about the length of engineering and product trialing that went into just the first product. Yeah. So if you take it back, you know, two years ago, what were some of those like day-to-day things that you were doing as you were juggling, being on the floor and being a product founder? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So um back then when I actually launched Atache, Atache, I was working for a salad on a salary. So um, yeah, I was working full-time and we had a little apartment and we started off in our storeroom and then we grew to our spare room. We got rid of all of our furniture, and then we outgrew that. Um, and we were also in the process of wanting to buy another place. So we actually bought in the hills and we bought a place with a massive, massive, massive shed, and we turned that into a warehouse, um, which we yeah, has streamlined so much for us. Um, but we have to this day, we keep everything in the house. So every touch point is me or Rebecca, which is full-on because I still work full-time, but now I work for myself full-time. Um so I do have a little bit more like jet wiggle room to be able to control my um timetable and roster in the salon when Atasha requires me to be out of the salon. So that does make it easier, but really I work a lot. I work um four days a week in the salon and I do 11-hour days, so I do long days, and then um Tuesday is like my admin day, but before I head to the salon and every morning I pack orders. So and do, and then through it's very, very important to me now, two years in. I will reply to any communication, be it um Mackenzie Taylor Hair or the Atache line throughout my day at work, but my phone locks at 8 p.m. I have an app that like locks me out of everything and it opens at 8 a.m. So there are 12 hours where I do not get on the comms now because there was a time where I would reply to emails, um, DMs, anything at any hour. Like it came in. I felt a need to respond straight away. I've put that boundary in, and that's been huge for me because to be able to actually log off from both your jobs is so important, and you lose that with social media because you are it used to be you just went to your workplace and you came home, whereas now so much continues online. So that has been a huge boundary that I've had to put in place uh only recently in the last this year, is when I started doing that, and that's made a massive difference.

SPEAKER_03

Was there something that happened that forced you to make that decision to do life?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. My wife, so there's 11 years between Rebecca and I, she's older than me, and she is just so not on social media. Like she, and she doesn't get it at all. She understands that social media is what grew Atasha. It didn't grow my hairdressing business that was already established. Um, so she she gets that, but she's also like very like rigid with boundaries and she and phone, like she will not, her phone is not glued to her. She'll pick up the phone and make a phone call if she wants to talk to someone. Unlike our generation, we do not do that. Um, and yeah, her means of contacts are like very traditional. So for her, she was like, I can see this, I can see that you are burnt out. You have you are constantly on, there's no off switch. We need boundaries. And for our relationship, we need boundaries as well. Because like I'm on the phone responding to clients, responding to customers. She's missing out on her wife and being at home in our beautiful place that we created. So um, yeah, it was it was super important. But she was the one who raised, like, I can see that this is too much. Um, but then obviously it's up to myself to stick to the boundaries. Yeah. So, but I am getting very, very good at it now. What are you using? Um, it's called Opal, and it's really good. Um, it it can let you, you can crack through it, um, but they make a hard, like they make you do it, take a mindful minute, and then they make you like maybe do a quiz. It's really random, like it's like a quiz or a maths equation or something. And by the time you get to that point, you're like, uh, I don't even want to go on it anymore. Put it away. So it's been really effective for me. I know there's other like ones where they like physically really can't get in. I think there's a product called the brick, and you have to.

SPEAKER_03

You've started getting alone, those ads, and I feel like it's a universe telling me something. Yeah, honestly, baby, but life changing. Life changing. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I remember um we recorded with Sheridan recently from Mama West, and we're having a very similar conversation. And there was this reel that I got served recently, and it talked about, you know, like being a founder, being an entrepreneur, starting a business from scratch. You know, you do it because you've got a passion for something and you also want to build a better life with more flexibility, like for the long term. And obviously in the early days, that's not that's not the deal. Yeah. When you're building something, it's grow. Yeah. But it's important to have those safeguards in place. So it's like the people most important to you in your life make sure they're getting the best of you. Yeah, of course. Do you know what I mean? Not the worst of you after a day. Yeah, they don't deserve that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that particular piece of content I got served up really hit home because we all need that reminder at times. And I think as well, when you have those boundaries in place, you deliver a high level of pro productivity when you are on. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

Because it actually like compartmentalizes when you should be on and when you should be off rather than being like half in, half out all day long. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely. Um what's something about running a product-based business that you think people completely underestimate?

SPEAKER_04

I think like what we touched on before, just how long the customer experience is drawn out and how seasonal it is as well. And you just it's really hard to predict. Like in and in our industry, we know our seasons. We know October, November, December, you're gonna be insane. You might die off a little bit in January and then you're gonna kick it all again throughout the year. Whereas product-based, I really find it hard to grasp when you're on and when you're off. Like it's I haven't been able, obviously, in your high um, like what do you have? Black Friday, yeah, yeah, boxing day. Obviously, these are gonna be really, really high performing times if you do it right. But then throughout the year, I haven't really been able to find a rhyme or rhythm with, you know, when people want to buy and when they don't want to buy. So it's really interesting that with product, it's not, it's not as seasonal. It's just when things are good in the world, people are buying. When when things are a little bit bad, they're not. Um, so yeah, that's definitely interesting and challenging as well.

SPEAKER_03

So, how are you thinking about that at the moment from like a sales perspective?

SPEAKER_04

From a sales perspective, I think it's like you said, like your founder stories, your marketing, your social media, making sure that you're you're touching all those points. Um, and if you can invest in someone to do um meta ads, um, you know, other things or show up to events like maybe activate, yeah. Yeah, if you can activate, do so. Give people the opportunity to touch and feel your product um if you're not in stores. We're not in stores, we're only e-coms. So uh for someone who may have thought about our product 17 times but not actually seen it in real life, it's a really good opportunity for them to see the physical product and then that might convert for you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. And how are you thinking about selling? Like obviously you're a hairdresser. Yeah. So it's like, how do you like to be sold to and how are you thinking about servicing hairdressers? Yeah. Like your peers in the industry.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I just I service with kindness and it's really important to me from a custom customer service background. Um, I'm very much if I walk into a store and I'm not greeted with a smile or a hello, I don't need you to panda to me. But um, I think that's off-putting. Uh, and I think it's the same with online and customers. If people are wanting to ask questions, if they're wanting to hear from you, I want to give that to them. And I want to give that to them with kindness and clarity and professionalism. So um, it's really important that I stay true to that in my brand. Um, and that's why I really like to have, I like to do the things myself. I like to reply, I don't I would never hire someone to man our DMs, you know, like that's always me. Yeah. Um I love, love, love to talk to our community. I also really, really love to send our product out to people who are in salon on the floor who maybe can't afford it or um, you know, has constantly, constantly messaged, sent praise, asked questions, but I know they haven't purchased. I really like to give back to the community that way because I was once there. Um, I was a struggling hairdresser without any extra funds living week to week. So I know what it's like, and I I'd I'd much prefer to give back to our community that way and support our industry than be giving maybe to ambassadors or influencers, which are also do have benefits and I do also have those relationships. But for me, I really like to give back to the industry and listen to what they want and need through that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I think there's one thing you can guarantee with the industry is people will always be honest. Yes. Yeah, it's quite scary. Yeah. People will always be honest, which I think is great though, because it helps you like the foundation of every great brand is great product. Yeah, 100%. Do you know what I mean? You can have amazing marketing, you can have amazing ambassadors or influencers and all of those things. But if you don't have a great product, people.

SPEAKER_04

And that's why, like, for us, we are all Australian made. It's very important to us. We manufacture in WA with a small family business. Um, for me to be able to see our product, pack our product, it's really important. Like, I do not want my product to make it to someone and not be at our standard.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and that's why I did choose to manufacture within Australia. Um, I saw our first ever. We own our machinery, we own our tooling. We use um uh mold injecting. So I saw our first ever tray come out. Like our. Oh, how cool is that? Yeah, and we got to see it, feel it, know the whole process from start to finish. So, um, and getting to that point was hard, but we got there and I'm really, really glad we stuck to that. What was it like seeing your first product? It was amazing. Did you did you hit a tear? I don't think I did. I think I was so like ready for it at that point. And yeah, like it had been nearly two years, and and we in the beginning had so much pushback. Like, no one wanted to take our money, no one wanted to manufacture for us in Australia because it's so expensive. They were like, really, like a lot of people think they have a good idea, like it's probably not gonna work. Like, yeah, and really people, a woman said that to me. And then in other occasions, men told me I should create a mold at home and have a craft a noon. And it was a lot. I had to roll my eyes at that one. We were turned away so much, like it was a real like test of perseverance. So seeing that tray come out, I was like, I'm so ready for this now. Like, we've earned this and we really, really grinded to get here. And it was a team effort. Even our manufacturer, like they, yeah, being a small family company, they really like rode the wave with us once we found them. They were so excited for all these. They were all in. Yeah. And we were at like our final deadline. I think we're having a launch party like the next day. So I was like, I need a trait now, like print it. So I think for me it was more like relief. Like, we're here, we've done it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know when a product comes along that just changes the game. Well, if you're a stylist or you love great hair, you're going to want to hear this. Today's episode is brought to you by Jador Hair Suppliers, and they've just launched the incredible Cane for Kai 7cm tape weft extensions. These extensions are designed to make every stylist's life easier. The 7cm tape means faster installs, which means less time in the chair and more money in your pocket. Whether you're doing a full transformation or quick infill, the wider tape gives you extra coverage and a beautifully seamless blend. And of course, quality is everything. The Cambrica range comes in 12 stunning colours and a luxurious 22 inches in length, giving you options for every client and every look. If you're ready to level up your installs and deliver flawless results with less effort, check out the new CamberKai 7cm Tate Weft extensions. Available now exclusive at Jador Hair Supplies. Your clients will love them and honestly, so will you. Head to trade.jadorhairsupplies.com.au linked in our show notes. I think it's funny though, because I think um, you know, talk going back to social media for a minute and that highlight reel, like everyone thinks like that moment when you see it or when it happens for the first time, like, yes, it's exciting, but often because you've been on the grind for so long, it's it can be like it took a lot to actually get here.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's almost like a sigh of relief, or like you're so exhausted that you're like, let's try to get this out. Like, even mustering up the energy to like be excited about it. I remember at that time was just like it was hard. Yeah. And I wanted to be really excited about it, but I was also just like, oh, like, can we just get this out there now?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. Especially through all that product manufacturing and testing. I completely understand. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um what are some of those levers that you've used to really drive your product? Like you mentioned, meta-ads, you talked about you've actually really enjoyed um gifting some hairdressers out there in the community in the industry that may not have necessarily made a purchase. You activated at mainland yesterday. Um, what are some of those other levers that you've been trialing or pushing to like really move the brand forward? Yeah. So I think you touched on a lot of them.

SPEAKER_04

Like for us, um, community, number one, that's the most important. So yeah, um, gifting to people who are on the floor and really like going to use our product day in, day out. Uh, we love doing that. And um meta ads has been a big one. We tapped into that probably six months ago, it was the first time that I started really using them. And they were really, really like I would highly recommend it if you have it in your budget. It is life-changing, but it is an algorithm that you need to know how to use. I did not, so I did outsource that.

SPEAKER_03

Um, and yes, but even outsourcing, like just because you're outsourcing something doesn't mean you don't have to oversee everything. Oh, yeah, you have you still absolutely have to like have your hands on it still. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

But um yeah, good. That the the back-end algorithm stuff is hard work with but really beneficial if you can if you can make it happen. Um, and yeah, showing up at events. Um, we don't have a lot of them in the hair world. So if you can be there, you should be.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I think as well, especially for your product, like being a basin product. I mean, it is just so important to activate in a way that your community can understand how the product comes to life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Like in that space as well. Yeah. And feeling it as well. I think for our product, we're we're made from a glass-filled nylon. So it's not actually just a generic PP plastic, it's actually like quite heavy when you hold it. So being able to feel the quality is important as well. Like you can and you can't see that online. Yeah. So that that it is why it's important to activate if you can. It's a privilege to be able to, to be invited to be able to afford it. Um, not everyone can, and I totally get that.

SPEAKER_03

So and what was that journey like when you first started kicking off meta-ads? Because it's so I feel like when you think about socials, um, you know, I think organic and paid media are two very different beasts. Yeah. And there's a lot of technical knowledge that goes behind launching ads and running ads as a product-based business. Now I know you mentioned that you outsourced, but even just knowing like how to start. Yeah. Like, do you know what I mean? Like who you want to outsource to and like getting your head around the metrics and the drivers around paid media, even though you're outsourcing, like, there's still a lot you need to be across. Like, how do you find that experience as a product-based?

SPEAKER_04

I actually found it really challenging because the messaging and the content is really different as well. So, um, like you said, like organic. I it's really important for me to be myself. And that's why when I show my face on social media, it's me, it's organically me. Um, I I found it really, really hard to put my face behind meta-ads because it has to convert sales. So the messaging is much stronger. And it didn't feel like me, so I did really struggle with it, but I wanted to lean in and take the direction of the people that I was hiring to do the job. So yeah, it was definitely a very, very different experience in that term. Like your messaging has to be much stronger because they're only going to see it and they need to see it so many times. So that message needs to hit like straight away to convert.

SPEAKER_03

So and did you do some content with the circles team for ads at one point?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. So Circles uses our trays, and actually, um Charlene was one of our first customers, which was really awesome. Yeah. So she bought a bunch of our trays and then she came back and bought more, which was really lovely. So um, again, that was a community opportunity to be like you actually have used them for 18 months. Would you help us with some content? So, which she was really, really luckily she was more than happy to do. Same with Jess. Um, yeah, they're always so willing to. We're lucky in Perth. The community is always really, really happy to help out.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I loved that's so nice. I love to hear that. Um, and I really like because the messaging is so different for ads and paid media, yeah. You feel like getting some content with a customer, a long-term customer to talk to the feature F and Bs or features and benefits for ads.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that aligned with me a lot more because I I like to lean into our community as opposed to me being front and center, being like, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. Like that just didn't feel good to me. And I really struggled with it. Um, so yeah, we we we pivoted a few times with that because I just couldn't I couldn't make myself do that.

SPEAKER_03

I found it really hard. But that's really clever though, yeah. Because it's like you're self-aware, you understand um, you know, your comfort level, and you're like, right, this is what we need to hit for paid media for ads. How are we gonna execute in that way that it's going to perform?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, but yeah, we you have to find something that works for your brand, but also does actually convert.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, because like you're putting spend behind it, right? Yeah, yeah, it's big money behind it for sure. Yeah. Oh, I love that's such a great story though, because you're not you're not compromising like your own values as a founder, right? Yeah, but you're still getting what you need to get done.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I mean, you have I mean, you I like I never say no to anything without trying it first. So you try it, and if it just still doesn't feel right, I think back yourself and say, I'm not comfortable with that, I don't, I don't like it, it doesn't align with me. And try something different. Yeah. Why not? I love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Now can you believe we are already on to fast five lightning rounds? Oh rapid fire.

SPEAKER_00

Rapid fire.

SPEAKER_03

So I always get to this point. We could. I always get to this point, and I feel like we've been talking for five or ten minutes, but it's not, it's been nearly an hour. An hour? Yeah. Um so what's a myth about the industry you wish people would stop believing when it comes to hairdressing or being a product founder?

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so I I think a big myth in our industry is that it's like a bitchy industry or um that we're dumb, that we're school dropouts. Um, I I did finish school at 15, but I went on to open my Own businesses twice. So we're not a dumb, we're not dumb people. We're working with chemicals and science.

SPEAKER_03

It's literally chemistry.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. So I just think why are we still saying that about hairdressers? And the other side, yeah. Why are we still calling hairdressers a bitchy industry? Like we all back each other so hard. All of us. Like, even you see it at these events like mainland and our AHFAs, like everyone's just like so pumped for each other. And I'm sure there's like little bits of it here and there. But as a whole, like our industry is really beautiful and supportive of one another. So yeah, I think that narrative needs to go.

SPEAKER_03

Needs to die. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. When I was in my 20s, I had this amazing, softly spoken mentor called Judy. Yeah. And she used to speak so softly, she almost whispered.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, beautiful.

SPEAKER_03

And she dropped this golden nugget on me when I was about 22, 23. And she said to me, the skills and achievements. Um, sorry, the skills that got you to your current achievement or goal or milestone aren't the ones that are going to take you to the next goal or milestone.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, and I've never forgotten it. So I want to know from you right now what's something you're letting go of and what's something that you're honing in on to try and get you to your next goal with a tar show.

SPEAKER_04

I'm honing in on believing in myself and showing up for myself and my brand. And I'm letting go of the narrative that I'm not good enough and I won't succeed.

SPEAKER_03

I love that. I love that so much. I just think it's so gorgeous. Like, I just it just kind of shocks me that you have that doubt. Like, you're obviously like very clever in going through such a long manufacturing period with a tar Shay and you know, like spending the weekend with you.

SPEAKER_04

I just yeah, yeah, there's still like this crazy blockage there, but I think you get that from like, yeah, long, long struggles with body image. And then yeah, and I get that it filters into everything, yeah. And you know, I still have days where I see that girl from six years ago looking back at me, and it's just like, yeah, I don't know that a lot of people don't see it, but especially people who've met me in the last few years would have no idea of where I've come from. So yeah, it's just it's one of those things that's always just like at the back, just nothing, but and you just like go away, yeah, yeah, go away.

SPEAKER_03

Love her, but like go away. Move on, yeah, move on, babe, move on. Um, what's the decision you made that changed everything, but at the time didn't necessarily make sense to the people around you?

SPEAKER_04

I okay, here's a a hot piece that I've never spoken to ever. So here's a little, what's it called? Like a a scoop. Um, I got married very young and got divorced very quickly. And then I met my now wife quite quickly after that relationship ended. It was a seven-year relationship, and my family was like, and everyone, all my best friends were like, what the is going on, girl? Like, you can't date another person, you can't get remarried, blah, blah, blah. And I just knew when I met Rebecca that she was my person and that she would drive me to like succeed and be great and believe in myself. And I mean, she has. We've been together for five years. She's been an imperative part of my journey. Yeah. And I really, really had to go against the grain of what everyone around me thought and their opinions. And we did get married, we have a beautiful home, we've got pets, we've got everything, we've got business, and yeah, that narrative it was like a horrendous feeling to get married and divorced like so young, and then try to tell yourself and tell everyone around you that you're allowed to do it again.

SPEAKER_03

Quick shout out to something I actually use every day at the Beauty Grail, the 270X Creator Tools from FK. The Viral MagSafe Snapstand is my absolute go-to. My phone just clicks on and I've instantly got the perfect angle. It's compact, reliable, and it honestly comes everywhere with me. The wireless mics are super clean and an absolute must-have. And the vlog screen, genuinely game-changing. It sticks to the back of your phone so you can use your back camera and still see yourself, which means way better video quality without the guesswork. If you're creating content for your business, this tech makes everything faster, easier, and your videos look so much more professional. And because you're listening, FK is giving you 15% off. Just head to phoneKing.com.au and use the code BUTTY15. I actually love this stuff. It just makes filming simple. All details linked in our show notes. So interesting. I have so much respect for people that I meet that are couples that work together. Um because, you know, being married and being in long-term relationships, you know, they require a lot of work. So when I meet people that also then work together or have a business together, yeah, and they're in a relationship or they're married or whatnot, I'm just like, I am just blown away and I have so much respect for people that can do that because it's yeah, it's just a fine dance. It is such a fine dance. So, how do you manage that?

SPEAKER_04

We have our lanes. We have our lanes. So I um deal with every, I deal with all of our customers and all the communication, and Rebecca deals a lot more with the manufacturers and the back end. So she does a lot of like our packing, our product um checking, development, and I do a lot more of like the creative, the social, and the people. Yeah, because I'm like ex-mil, like Navy. So she was in the Navy for 14 years. Uh so she is so like black and white, logistical, not customer service-based at all. I love bringing terror events, she's just a hoot and she just thinks it's wild. But uh that hedges like the community as well. Yeah. And she just like lets her hair down and gets all in up in it. But um, yeah, so we we have our lanes and we we rarely cross cross over. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But we work really, we're lucky, we work really well together and we have our strengths and we've just leaned into them. But I can, oh god, I can imagine how difficult it could get if you didn't if you didn't have yours your departments.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I feel like there's a like a really high level of self and relationship dynamic that's required to be able to do that very successfully for both parties.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, for sure. And and Beck is beautiful, like she's like, this is your baby, this is your area, and this is your dream. So she's very much like, let me tell tell me how I can support you, and I'll do so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah, really lucky. She sounds amazing. She's I would have loved to have had her on here as well. Well, maybe one day, baby. Yeah, maybe. We'll do a part two. Yeah. What's a study in your life or career that is now non-negotiable? I feel like I know the answer to this. This is my um social media, my my boundaries? Yeah, yeah, definitely the boundaries.

SPEAKER_04

Do you think this is uh like a forever boundary? Yeah, it has to stay, like for sure. Um, and whether I get more like lenient with the times of it or I or I get stronger with the times of it, I don't know. But for me, yeah, the boundaries have to stay for sure. For sure. I have to, I have to put them in place to sustain the level at which I'm working.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah, I could totally get that. Um what's a piece of tech or AI that you're really leaning into at the moment? I mean, I feel like people are talking about tech and AI more than ever across every industry. Yeah. Right now, what's something that is kind of being quite game-changing you for with Atarshae?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so with Atashe, definitely the meta ads has been a big one. And then um, like all your, you know, Claude's chat GPTs, stuff like that are fantastic for like building your brand's like foundations. I do like I said, it's really important that I keep my tone of voice and make sure things are me. So I don't use it for communication. Yeah. You like that personal touch. Yeah, yeah. But more so like building your brand story. And sometimes you need a reminder of what your brand story is. So it's really good if you've built that sort of like AI relationship with chat or Claude to be like, hey, I'm a bit lost here. What is it? What am I trying to deliver? And it's like, well, your brand story is this, this is what you like to do, blah, blah, blah. So maybe you need to go that route. Sometimes it's good to just have like a non-biased opinion to bounce off. I don't find I don't find chat very non-biased, though. Yeah, I know. Chat is it's hit and miss, isn't it? Yeah. I'm not a big AI user, but um, it's definitely something that's there and you have to learn. And and I guess we all can take little pieces of it where comfortable.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. All right, final question. What's the next audacious goal you're working on right now for At Shay? Oh, babe, to be in every salon in Australia. Oh, I love that. Obviously. Obviously. I mean, how many sell? God, every salon in Australia, let's just think about those numbers. Like, I wouldn't even know.

SPEAKER_04

I think I first I Googled it a few years ago and it said like there's 26,000 hair salons in Australia. So you can imagine now. And within those salons are multiple small businesses in some cases, like if you're in a freelance space. So it's a it's audacious.

SPEAKER_03

26,000. Yeah. When you're first big industry. Yeah, I think people underestimate it. And I remember when I was um doing my own research for the Beauty Girl, and it's like all you need to do is walk down the street and count how many hairdressing salons there are. Yeah. Whether that's in a shopping centre, whether that's in a strip more like a prime or retail area. Like it's not.

SPEAKER_04

No, no, yeah. So, and that's why I just think there's going back to your myth busting, there's there's no reason for us to be rich in this industry because there's room for everyone. For everyone, you know, and how many people do we have in Australia that need a head up? Yeah, that need their head up. Yeah, God, it's huge.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, babe, thank you so much for watching. Thank you. What a pleasure. What a pleasure having you over here from Perth. Um, I've actually absolutely loved chatting with you today, and we have linked all of your handles and details for Atasha in the show notes. Thanks, babe. Thanks for having me.