Toolbox Talks Ep 6: How the ICC Protects Illinois' Underground Infrastructure w/ Bill Daniel

What happens when utility locates aren't completed on time? Who enforces Illinois' safe digging laws? And what should excavators do when they're following the rules but still can't get their marks?

In this episode of JULIE's Toolbox Talks, host Brian MacKenzie sits down with Bill Daniel, Manager of One Call Education & Enforcement at the Illinois Commerce Commission (ICC). With more than 30 years of damage prevention experience, Bill provides an inside look at how the ICC helps enforce the Illinois Damage Prevention Act and works to keep excavators, locators, utilities, and the public safe.

Topics covered include:

- The ICC's role in damage prevention enforcement
- Common violations by excavators and facility operators
- Why timely locates remain a challenge
- Large project coordination and joint meets
- The impact of fiber expansion projects across Illinois
-  Locator workforce challenges
-  Practical advice for excavators and contractors
-  How enforcement helps improve safety and compliance

Whether you're an excavator, locator, utility operator, contractor, municipality, or homeowner, this episode provides valuable insight into the shared responsibility of damage prevention.

Learn more at JULIEBeforeYouDig.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Julie's Toolbox Talks Podcast. Your go-to green stories for safe free and protecting Illinois' underground infrastructure. Each episode will share practical tips, real stories, and expert insights to help you take smart, stay safe, and keep your project on solid ground. Brought to you by Julie, Illinois Facility Notification Center.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Hello and welcome to Julie's Toolbox Talks Podcast, brought to you by Julie, the Illinois Facility Notification Center. I'm your host, Brian McKenzie. Thanks for joining us. Today we are shining a spotlight on an organization that plays a critical role in safe digging across Illinois, the Illinois Commerce Commission. We'll explore what they do, how they enforce a law that keeps our underground infrastructure protected, and what real-world impact that enforcement has out in the field. I'm excited to bring in our guest today, Bill Daniel. Bill brings 30 plus years of utility damage prevention experience, including 28 years in locating and marking operations throughout Illinois, Iowa, and Missouri. He currently serves as a manager of the Illinois One Call Education and Enforcement at the Illinois Commerce Commission. Bill also was involved in the United States Air Force for 11 years as a law enforcement investigator. Welcome, Bill. I had no idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Yeah, I don't uh I don't talk a lot about it, but uh yeah, it was a good experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

I think it uh it kind of it explains I've always fascinated how numbers people, I mean you're a numbers guy. Uh full disclosure, guys, everybody on the on our podcast today. I I've worked with Bill 25 of the of his 30 years uh out in the field. We've worked either together or for him in some fashion or other way. So uh I've invited him here today because I I really feel that um the ICC is crucial in in to what we do. So why don't you just tell our viewers, Bill, what is the Illinois Commerce Commission?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Okay, well, the Illinois Commerce Commission is actually a regulating body for a lot of the a lot of the public utilities. Um my division, um one call enforcement. Um it's well, we changed the name now, it's one call education enforcement, since we're doing a little bit more education rather than just enforcement. Um the Illinois Damage Prevention Act designated the ICC as being the enforcing body of the act. And that's where this division was was developed. Um I began about five years ago, um, came in as a uh an investigator, and then uh we've got three three investigators uh plus myself that cover the entire state um for uh for Julie enforcement.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Um Chicago? No Chicago?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

No, no, no, we don't do the city of Chicago. Anything that the digger the the digger covers in uh in Chicago, Cook County is uh is out of our jurisdiction.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

So just wherever Julie's footprint is. Gotcha, understood. So uh the enforcement side, uh uh what are some of the the most common violations that you see?

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Well, we see violations on both sides, either facility operators or uh excavators. Um facility operators, the primary issue that we have is just timeliness. Um failing to re failing to get to the tickets on time. Um second to that would be just failing to mark accurately mark the facility if they do get there. Um for excavators, you know, it's it's there's two major ones, and it's not having a valid ticket. Um that could mean they they didn't call Julie at all, or they dug outside the extent, or the ticket expired, or they dug early, any variation of that. Um, and then the other is just failing to use due care. You know, they don't pothole. Uh you know, they bore under a a gas line or a communication line without pothole and and they hit it. Um the uh um or just you know, using mechanical equipment too close, you know, within the tolerance zone. Tolerance zone's 18 inches, and you got folks that get a little wily out there and put a backhoe within that 18-inch tolerance and end up uh you know having some conversations with us.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Yeah, one of the things that when I located it, I saw in the field, and even today, is that the the excavators they they don't go down to the depth of their proposed excavation, they stop at the first line that they see, and then they they think, oh, that's it, six inches deep, and curl that bucket, and you know, out comes the new. And we are not a state that removes the the old utility facilities. So that's I could see where that would be one of the issues.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Yeah, yeah, that's another, that's another one that uh um even though it's been in the act for a while, um the the uh education on for excavators learning to do that, you know, we'll get calls saying say, I'm going down six feet. It's like, well, you still gotta go down six feet, you know. Um so it just takes more education and and you know, making them aware of the of that responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

I'm glad you brought that up because it's that's pro tip number one, ladies and gentlemen. If you're an excavator out here, if you're a homeowner, if you're a professional excavator, 18 inches either side of the mark to the depth of your proposed excavation is what you are required to hand dig or vacuum excavate. And we say vacuum excavate, Bill is does it require a locate request to use vacuum excavation?

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Um technically, no. But if you're excavating, you're usually potholing. Uh when when when vac vac work's being done, it's usually potholing an existing facility. So, you know, 90% of the time, 99% of the time, uh the facility is already marked, and that's kind of what they're using the vac for.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

So yeah, the the vacuum excavation is a great way. Um, CJ has actually said it's it's one of the safest means of of exposing a utility facility. And the only thing I want to caution everybody on you is before you go out and buy a brand new truck of a uh jet vac, these be very careful because the the pressures on those can actually blow the coatings off the gas main, and that kind of defeats the whole purpose of why you got the the vacuum excavation. So be cautious, you know, when you use those things too, because they can be they pretty strong as well.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yeah, yeah, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

You also brought up that that they enforce both sides, and uh, you know, it always seems I always hear from excavators, well, the locators never get in trouble. And I just want to to clarify that with our listeners today that you do, in fact, enforce both sides of the ball here. I mean, it's excavators as well as locators.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yeah, that's correct. You know, I I would say probably over the past three or four years that the bulk of the violations are issued on facility operators. Um, you know, I I think everybody's aware that the the volume in the state, the ticket volume has has increased over the past several years. Um a lot of fiber going in the ground, a lot of larger projects, and you know, it's it's all resulted in in time on this issues. Um and you know, basically over the last you know, three or four years, we've issued uh assessed probably over 12 million dollars in fines. Um both parties.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

So that's a big number. Big number. I I'm glad you brought up the fiber work and the large projects because that's something that that will never go away, even when the law was kind of changed to to help the locators and and give them a little bit more ability to push back, and then we kind of change the joint meet process to make it mandatory and for everybody to attend, and and with the ability to hand out the maps. And I mean, how do you feel? What how do you feel about these large projects? I mean, do you think they're worth it? The what's the advantages of pre-marketing and giving these maps, does it really and truly give a better locate?

SPEAKER_01 7:58

I I think so. If if it's used properly, you know, and and you know, the way it's written in the act, um, how it defines what a large project is, and then what's what's required. I think if if all parties involved, the excavators and facility operators, if they all play by the same rules, it it's a great, it's a great system. Um, I mean, you can lay out where we've got X amount of footage we need to put in over the next six weeks. I need, you know, a thousand feet a day. Um, it can be really specific. Um, but again, it really takes it takes a buy-in from both parties to to make that. And I I think you know, we we probably need to tweak that a little bit more just to give it a little bit more depth to uh to make it a valuable tool for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Yeah, it I'm with you. I see the the value in it. I see the value with going to positive response. It's just getting through the bugs, getting through you know the nuances. It's still new. We're still in, you know, month five. But I I just wish if there was one thing that that some a listener could take away, if you're a member company and you're you've got these subcontractors you're wanting to hire and you want to put all this work in, please, please, please don't just throw that all on your subcontractors. Please take some initiative behind that and do the the advanced noise joint meet six to eight months in advance. Let locators know what's coming out there. I'm gonna tell you, I I kind of view this a little bit differently, Bill. You same way you came with me, but you can kind of see what happens when there aren't enough locators out there. The locators really do make a difference, and when there aren't enough out there, things can come behind. When we see the storm of the fiber work that we have right now, trying to get these jobs scheduled and and lined up can be pretty difficult.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Oh, for sure, for sure. And I, you know, and I think there's been some recent changes in the act that that kind of uh address that. I mean, like I said, you'd only put so many boots on the ground because there's only so many boots to fill. Um and you you can only locate so much at one time. But uh I think some of the recent changes by not making the day of the call count, um, the beyond reasonable control areas, um, and you know, requiring the joint meets, we spoke about that. Those are all some changes that that could be that were made that you know kind of impact the uh the you know the timeliness and and and gives that facility operators you know a little bit more time to get to them.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

So yeah, because they in talking to some of the fiber operators, you know, I mean, we're constantly trying to find that magic bullet. And I want everybody to know it's not just Illinois. This is a 50 in other 50 states, this is the same topic. It keeps coming up. And I'm not one to make excuses, guys. I don't want you to sit there and think, oh, it's another excuse. I wish people truly understood the amount of time that it took to make a locator. You know, uh you just don't say, oh, but there's your book, two weeks later you're out, you're after. You're talking six months to a year, guys, to make a really good locator. And the reason I say a year is because you got to see it, smell it, touch it. I mean, uh, it's an industry where it's gonna smack you in the face one day, pat you on the back on another. I mean, it is a it's a constant moving uh animal. It really, really is. And again, not looking for excuses, but I just want the people to know your excavator's out there because I constantly hear it, just go get another locator. There is no locator closet. I mean, you know, Bill, you you've dealt with it 30 years. What's your thought on that?

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Well, that that is true. I mean, like you said, there's there's got to be negotiation on both parts, especially with with the fiber that's coming in. Um, you know, I I think and what I've read too is that you know, those folks are going to have some of the same issues with with this bead work going on in 50 states. Um you know, the availability of contract or uh excavators that can come in and do the work. Um, I mean, you know, we both know that in Illinois there's a lot of out-of-state contractors that come in. Um, but then you know you got the purchase of the conduit and pick and the and the fiber. I mean, there's going to be a shortage of all that as well. So um excavators are gonna kind of feel kind of the same pain um with trying to get all this stuff in at the same time as well.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

So yeah, absolutely. It's just uh it we're all very closely, it's one big group, really. I mean, uh damage prevention, it's it is a shared responsibility to both sides, as you just mentioned, not only them from the members and the locators from the utility side and the root and their members too, when they're doing work. We've got to figure out a way to work together because again, the last thing I want to see is um, you know, your smaller mom and pops lose faith in the Julie system because they're not getting their marks on time. You know, that's that's where I get a little bit upset because I don't want to ever see that happen. So I want the memberships to really take a look at these out-of-state excavator courses that we have, the in-state excavator courses that we have, take advantage of the in-core in uh in-person trainings that we do, get of extra time as much as you can, because again, there are multiple, multiple um organizations from out of state here in Illinois working currently, and they may think that we have the same regulations as Michigan as an example, but you know, but this large project process is something that you must be aware of when you dig in Illinois.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yeah, and I think uh, you know, part of the B process was going to require anybody from out of state to take your one of the modules from Julie. So they are, you know, at least formally aware of anything that might be different in Illinois than the state they're coming from. And I think that's that's really important.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Yep. Because you're gonna find here in Illinois, guys, that the our the DPMs, the damage prevention manager for Julie, we we really are involved, but really out there, we really do want to help. I know other states they they don't get involved as much, but you know, again, we like to do that. So please don't ever think that you're out there and gosh, I can't get anybody located, I got nobody to talk to. You have Bill and I uh for guys, we Bill is kind of the final straw that once you get to that point, but you do have resources out there, which brings me to a really good question because I hear this a lot. What do we tell the excavator that's out there doing everything right? The guy that's giving extra time, he's pre-marking the job sites, he's giving the maps, and he still can't get locates on time.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Well, unfortunately, I mean that that happens quite a bit. I mean, and and we encourage them to continue to do the same. I mean, you know, don't change their pattern, make sure that they're following all the rules and all the, you know, all the established policies that are out there. Um, don't take any shortcuts, make sure that they're they're doing what they have to do. Um, you know, we're we're working with uh sometimes, you know, we'll make a call to an excavator or to the facility operator, the project owner. And sometimes that that gets a lot more action than than you know filing reports. I mean, you know, a lot of times me and my team, we we don't just you know file file a report and and put out a violation. I mean, we make we make phone calls and we get a lot of a lot of reaction uh from just doing that. Um but uh you know, like I said, worst case scenario, you know, they they give us a call and we initiate a case, you know, and and uh we try to we as I said we try to make that conversation first because by the time we get a case and we run the case, I mean it might take us, you know, a month, six weeks to to get through a case. Um that doesn't get anybody out there put pain on on on that facility today. Right. So, you know, when somebody's really having issues, you know, we try to reach out to that to that facility operator and say, you got an issue, why don't you go ahead and start working on it now while we're processing these. So at least we can kind of reduce the the the uh the lack of locates for that excavator and hopefully kind of reduce the number of cases on that facility operator as well.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

You know, I agree. It's uh you heard it here first, folks. They're not just and that's the common misconception, I think, is you know, the ICC, they're gonna come out and find me. You know, again, we're all trying to get everybody digging, we're all trying to keep everybody safe. Julie has no authority power whatsoever. You know, again, I I'm just educating and training. When I bring Bill into the mix, it's generally, you know, Bill's gonna pretty much tell you, you know, this is what should be done. But thank you for doing that. Because again, you know, we're all in this together. So let me ask you though, with all that, does enforcement help? Do you see changes when when you have to enforce things?

SPEAKER_01 16:19

I I think so. You know, I mean, not only you know does it help, it's mandatory. You know, I mean it's required by the act. So there's a lot of things, you know, we we can't overlook. You know, sometimes, you know, like so we get that uh um you're just out here to do this and do that. And uh, you know, number one is that that the ICC, any penalties that we receive, they're all turned back over to you, to Julie. You know, the state does not keep any of that money. It's all it's all um sending a grant to Julie for education and and and whatnot. So it's not like we're we don't get any pleasure out of this and we don't uh you know we don't make any anything by doing this. Um I I think that uh um you know the enforcement is is to to kind of uh uh change bad behavior. And uh uh it it can't eliminate it. I mean, because people are people are human, they're still gonna keep doing what they're gonna do no matter what. But uh you know, hopefully, you know, there's there's enough of that. There's enough that you know we get into the weeds with them that that eventually they do start changing some behavior. Um we have seen a a reduction in in uh excavator issues. Um, you know, as I started when we started out, I said a lot of most of our uh complaints and cases that we we do are on facility operators. So excavators um you know have seemed like seem like they have improved over the past uh you know few years that I've been here.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

So yeah, I I I think you guys were tracking that at one point, um, damages throughout the year. And I I you have to correct me if I'm wrong. The years start to run together, but I think we are starting on that that upward trend of or downward trend. I can't remember which one or what you're the numbers guy, but i I think it was getting better as uh what one of the charts that I saw you guys had.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yeah, yes, on the excavator side, yeah. The the excavator issues or complaints or complaints against excavators have have dropped um you know pretty significantly over the years.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

So yeah, I think once we get once we get all this fiber in the ground, we get past that, we'll get on to the next thing, which appears to be water service replacements. So if you know if we can get out in front of ahead of that, if there's any plumbers on here today, when you're going to be doing uh replacing a lead line service, please don't call the entire property in. You know, please pre-mark those areas so you can get a timely locate, right? Because the locators are going to push back to you guys if you're gonna say replating a water service, locate entire property, right? So you want to narrow that down front of property, if the water service comes out the side, is the left or right side, whatever it is. Just have those areas pre-marked uh, you know, before. And with the ability now, guys, of being able to pre-mark with white paint stakes or flags, you can give a good verbal extent. Now you can upload those maps too, which I that's a huge thing for me again, because I'm a I'm a visual learner, guys. If you show me as a locator where you're wanting to dig on that property, and I got a duct running in the back, and I don't have to locate that thing because that's going to take me two and a half hours. I'm just gonna get that much faster and get on to the next guy. And it may be your ticket. So keep that in mind. That's uh it's so crucial out there.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Yeah, I don't think excavators realize how important that is to reduce the size of the tickets. Um, you know, like you said, the standard used to be just locate the entire property and and uh um they just didn't realize how much time that took for an excavater or for a facility operator to go do all that locating.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

It also leads me into one more pro tip I'm gonna give you guys out here on the call today that you need to be doing tickets on remote ticket entry, guys. It's gonna be the new thing. Come December, we're gonna have a more exciting announcement, which I'm gonna hold that for now. But if you're not using remote ticket entry, if you're not doing these tickets online, then please consider doing. I'll give you an example. We received already in May, we had three days of over 10,000 tickets a day. I mean, that's that's a pretty good chunk amount. So if people are ending tickets in e-request, they're they're kind of waiting a little bit because it's got to go back up to the operator who has to fill the information out and then it's sent back. So if you guys want a quicker way to do this, RTE is it because now you're gonna be able to upload those maps. You're gonna give a clear and concise verbal extent out there, you're gonna see what members are on the bottom. I can't stress that enough. That's just another option. That's pro tip number two. So that one for you. For our listeners out there, I want I want to end with a final question here of an upbeat moment. Do you have an example where you made a positive impact to an individual's life?

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Well, I think everyone likes to think that they, you know, they make an impact, you know, other than my my kids, you know. I I think the uh the folks that I've worked with, I've worked with a lot of folks that have um moved on to different things, you know, including yourself. You know, I I'm not saying that I had a big part of that, but uh um, you know, with the number of folks that, you know, two to the investigators that work for me now used to work for me as well in contract locating. Um a number of others have have gone on to you know damage prevention departments within other utilities. Um so I'd I'd like to think that part of what I've maybe they learned from me or took away from me, you know, kind of moved them in that direction.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

So 100%. You know, it's that's uh like I said, the listeners, we've we've worked together with Bill. This is a very, again, tight-knit community of of people for the locators and the anybody listening out here that thinks you want to get into locating, it's still a fantastic place to be because you get to meet some amazing people, you get to see some the job is constantly changing out there. And you're right, Bill, it does make there's been a lot of us that have moved on from that time, and we're in positions where we can help. So I am very thankful, you know, for the experience that you gave me over the years because now I'm able to take those stories, those experiences, and I'm able to bring it to the Illinois Excavator. And that that is that that's a bright spot for me. So appreciate that. So, and to our listeners, thanks you for tuning into the Julie Toolbox Talks. We hope today's conversation with the Illinois Commerce Commission gave you a better understanding of how enforcement and compliance work together to keep everyone safe. For more information and resources, visit JulieBeforYouDig.com. Stay safe, and as always, contact Julie BeforeYou Dig.