HR That Moves the Business: Terri Fleener, CDR on Leadership, Culture, and Workforce Stability

In this episode of the Activating Greatness Podcast, host Alec McChesney sits down with Terri Fleener, a senior human resources leader known for helping organizations connect people strategy to real business results. The conversation explores how HR can move beyond traditional administrative roles to become a true driver of leadership, culture, and performance. Terri shares insights on navigating instability in the workplace, understanding the “cost of the unknown” when organizations lose strong employees, and how leaders can build culture and trust while still delivering results. For executives, HR professionals, and team leaders, this episode offers a powerful perspective on how thoughtful people leadership strengthens organizations from the inside out.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Activating Greatness, the show where we dig into what it really takes to lead with purpose, inspire performance, and create lasting impact. As always, I'm your host, Alec McChesney. And every episode, we sit down with leaders, thinkers, and change makers who are unlocking potential in themselves, their teams, and their organizations. Here we talk about the real stuff: leadership that drives culture, strategy that creates momentum, and the mindset that turns good intentions into game-changing results. Because greatness, it isn't a title, it's a choice. It's something you activate every single day. So thank you. Thank you for listening, for showing up, and for being part of a community of leaders who refuse to settle for good enough. Now, let's dive in and meet today's incredible guest. Today's guest is Terry Fleener, a senior HR leader who believes deeply that human resources is not a support function. It is a business critical change agent. Terry leads in environments defined by complexity, rapid change, and constant pressure. She is passionate about empowering people to be successful while still delivering results, especially at a time when instability exists both inside and outside of work. Terry brings a practical, grounded perspective on how organizations can evolve the way they think about talent, leadership, and performance without losing sight of the realities of running a business. And today we're going to talk about HR driving meaningful change. We're going to talk about why people expect different things from work than ever before and the real cost that organizations pay when there are unclear people decisions where we are inconsistent or maybe we're even avoiding those tough decisions. But before we do that, Terry, I am so excited for today's episode. We got to connect a couple of weeks back and then saw each other down in Orlando at Scope. And so I have been really pumped up for this episode. And I would love, you know, to give you the microphone for a second to, you know, maybe introduce yourself a bit further for those who who aren't familiar with you yet, who I think will be really excited to get to know you over the next 35, 40 minutes or so.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Awesome. Thank you, Alec. Um, yeah, so I'm Terry Fleener. I lead talent for WCG Clinical. Um, we're a PE-backed clinical trial support organization doing lots of cool things to make patients' lives better every day. Um, and I I tend to refer to talent as the fun part of HR. Um so I'm, I don't know, sometimes people say it's the dark side too. I don't know. I tend to think it's the light side, but um, my teams are responsible for bringing talent into the organization, um, developing our talent who are here at the organization and setting them up for success. Um, I also lead culture, uh legacy DEI for the organization. Um, and I'm super proud of the work that we're doing in that space as well. So happy to be here, excited to kick off my morning with you.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Well, I I love it. And I think there's a good chance that I'm gonna ask at least one, if not two or three, bad podcast questions during this episode. Because when we did our prep call, we talked about one topic and then we ran to another topic, and then we ran to another topic. And I think that it's one of the reasons I was so excited to have you on, even when you talk about the the fun side of HR, and then you talk about bringing in talent, setting them up for success, culture. There's so many different things at play within the HR realm. And I, from the outside, looking in over the years, and certainly as I've gotten closer to the function as a whole, I see a negative realm of HR as just a task-oriented, yep, we're doing the thing. Yep, there's payroll, yep, there's benefits. And what you see is that HR is a change agent. It it is it is a department, it's a part of the organization where we can drive change for the better, we can reshape how we think about HR, but also our people, our talent, uh, the way that we do business. And so, from your perspective, I just want to start at the top. What role should HR really be playing when we're talking about helping organizations move forward in 2026, 2027, and beyond?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, um, great question. I I think that HR sometimes has a bad rap, right? As being the bad guys, we're the the no's, right? We're we're we love to say no to people. I've got this idea, no, you can't do that. Um, I think that we're actually the opposite. Um, so we're we're the yes people. We want our people to be successful, we want them to be happy and healthy at work. Um, because at the end of the day, that's what drives productivity. Um we're people-powered organizations. So um we're not a contract manufacturer, we're not producing a widget. Um, everything that we do as an organization relies on the people that power it. And if our people aren't um developed in the right areas and set up for success, then as an organization, we can't be successful. Um and change is constant within clinical trials, the space that you and I both kind of come from, life sciences. Um, it's wild. It's the wild, wild west every day here. Um, things are are disrupting the world and the way that we do business. And if we are not empowered to embrace change, um, and have people that are empowered to embrace change, we're never gonna move the needle forward.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Yeah, it's it's so interesting. I think we're you're gonna be episode 19 of this show already this year. And so much of the conversation comes back to people, people, people, people. If we have the right people in place, if the people are happy to be here, if the people this and the people that. And there's some of it where it's like it's it's knocking us on the head, right? It is like taking the own medicine or staring in the mirror, whatever a good analogy for this is. All of the thought leaders, all of the wonderful guests, CEOs, head of HR, head of people are saying the same thing. And yet the actions of teams don't always line up to let's invest in the people, let's invest in their mental well-being, their health, their their uh growth opportunities. And so I'm curious from your perspective, this is bad podcast question number one. Uh, I I make the rules on the podcast, we're only nine minutes in, and here we are. Why do we get this wrong? Where did we go wrong for HR to get a bad rap or for HR to be, hey, we send complaints to, or they're, you know, the the the quote unquote, I'm doing air quotes for those that are listening, the wet blanket of the organization, because I've heard that term on the podcast as well. Where did we go wrong when we all agree that people are what make an organization better and and great to be at?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yeah. Um so the the secret sauce, I think, is this is that uh people are unpredictable. Um, right now we have five generations in the workforce. Um, so we've got boomers who wear burnout like a badge of courage, right? Like these this is a badge of honor for them. They love an 80-hour work week. Um, they see that as a rite of passage for how they got to where they are in their careers. Um, flip that to our Gen Zs, our Gen X's, our millennials are not feeling the same way. They do not see it as a badge of honor, rather a red flag of I need to get the hell out of here and find somewhere else because I want a 40-hour work week. I want it to be flexible, I want to spend time with my family, my friends, I want hobbies that are outside of work. Um, and how do you make two polar extremes happy? You have to meet them in the middle and you have to empower people for what drives them to be successful and what drives their work, right, in a meaningful way. Um, it's not one size fits all that doesn't work in a clothing store, and it sure doesn't work at business.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

I uh I'm for sure pulling that snippet out, and I'm just gonna post that on LinkedIn. It sure doesn't work at a, it doesn't work at a clothing store, and it sure doesn't work at a as a business. And I think a lot of times that's the reaction, right? Whether we were talking about post-COVID return to office or we were talking about the way that we log time or whatever it has been over the last six years, there's been instability every step of the way. And especially when we talk about the life sciences, I mean, you have a an industry where one comment from either administration since 2020 changes the stock market, changes the way that organizations are moving forward. And it happened on a Tuesday at 350, and suddenly the market fluctuates and all the there's so much optimism going into JP Morgan, and now there's no optimism going into JP Morgan, and that's just on a given day, let alone the other global economic uh impacts that are happening, and how each person perceives that happening is also different, right? If I'm more impacted and I'm the one that's up doom scrolling until midnight and worried because I've got an 11-month-old, that might be way different than you know, somebody who is near the end of their career and is not worried about that at all. And so you mentioned kind of meeting in the middle, but also understanding that each person is different, right? And each person has different needs. How do you balance that while still maintaining performance and accountability? And we've got numbers to hit. You said it at the top, private equity back. We have to have we have to have the numbers at the end of Q1, at the end of Q2. So kind of walk us through, if you will, how do you balance meeting each person where they're at, being flexible, getting them in a position where they're happy to come to work, no Sunday scaries, and we're still hitting our numbers. We're still maintaining performance and accountability across the board.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Yeah, so I think you you hit on two things that I want to talk about. One is um change is constant. Um, so we in 2020 they termed um they're coined the term unprecedented times. That is just the reality of where we live today. It is every day is a new horror, it's a new, oh my God, what happens now? Yes. Um, and and that is impacting the way that we work. Um, and it will from here on out because you've got AI, it's disrupting things, um, human in the loop. Do we need them? I don't know. You know, when does this change and take over? Is this a terminator or is it a good thing? Yes. This is all yet to be seen. Um, but what we do know is the reality is everything has changed and it will continue to change at a pace that we never imagined, where at three you're working different on a Tuesday than on Thursday at noon, um, because it's just the way of the world. So meeting employees and understanding what works for Alec doesn't work for Terry. Um, so I we're a remote first organization. I work from home. I've got two teenagers. Um, I get up at four in the morning because that's the only time that I have that's quiet in my house because the teenagers, they're not getting out of bed, they're not up early, right? Um my husband sleeps late. So that's what works for Terry because at three o'clock on the other side of that white door, I've got two teenagers coming in. They're on speaker phone. I can't do a podcast at three because my world is upside down. So you have to believe that your employees are working when um it makes sense for them to work. Um you can still measure their results, right? But whether they're working from 4 a.m. until 3 or whatever the time that works for them, or 8 to 5 doesn't matter as long as the work is getting done. We can measure the outcomes. Um gone are the days of an eight to five. It's just not necessary anymore.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

I'm just gonna let that sit. Gone are the days of the eight to five. Um, Terry, I'm gonna put you on the spot. That's gonna be a that's gonna be a LinkedIn post that I'm very excited about because you're you are speaking my language specifically. And we had a podcast that aired a couple of weeks ago now, when when this episode will be out with Tony Greco over at USGA. And he said, we got together as a team, and I asked everybody for the first time, when do you do your best work? And the answers were just eye-opening. And I said, To I I like had the goosebumps. I'm over here celebrating. So I'm like, Tony, that is that's been a theme on this podcast and past podcast with Brooke Paige Thompson and I and our getting unstuck series, because I cannot sit from eight to five and stare at a screen. I I am way better in the mornings, but I also now, since Maxine has been, you know, here for 11 months now, I don't have as much time in the mornings. And so if I need like my strategic brain on her first nap on a Saturday morning when my wife goes back to bed, I get into an absolute pocket. And for two hours, I am just zoned in and I am super productive. And I say that, and I've had to tell my team, there is no expectation that you work on a Saturday. There is no expectation that you do these things. But what I'm trying to show you is at three o'clock after being in back-to-back-to-back meetings, I might need to take a step away and I'm going to do that. Then on Saturday, I am going to do the work, like I'm going to make up for that. And I don't feel guilty or ashamed or upset that I'm working on a Saturday because it's when I'm genuinely in a pocket to be successful. And a decade ago, even maybe six years ago, you go 2019, that would have been frowned upon in a lot of establishments. I still think that it is somewhat frowned upon today because that control over measuring outputs instead of outcomes is still something that is holding teams back. And so I just love that you said we can measure outcomes, outcomes, outcomes, outcomes. And if that means I'm working at nine o'clock at night because I got past bedtime and I suddenly had a good idea or working on Saturday, the outcome is the same, right? And I uh I think more people need to hear that. So thank you for for for bringing that up. Um, I'm very excited about that because more people need need to hear it. I want to give you any any extra thoughts on that after I responded before we take a detour. Any extra thoughts, Terry?

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Yeah, so um just as we were talking, uh, you know, I've got teams over here on this side and I'm yellow on Teams. Like, does that mean I'm not productive? No, we're sitting here having a conversation. I'm just not in Teams right now. So I think that there's also this stigma of like, if I'm not read all of the time, if my calendar is not blocked, then I'm not being productive, if I'm not in nine hours worth of meetings. That's just simply not true. Um, I mean, it's just not the way that the world works, especially in a remote organization. And I think it goes back to trusting your employees, um, giving them the space to be strategic, giving them the space to be um genuine with their schedules. Um, Saturday morning is one of my favorite times to work, but I certainly would never dream of expecting that from anyone else on my team. Um, I've got people who live on the East Coast and work, you know, more of Pacific Coast hours because that's what works for them. Like, I don't care as long as we are getting the work done. Um, it matters not to me. And I think it's about trust that empowers your employees to be successful when it makes sense. And like you, your brain is good at certain times. Um, my husband's a night owl. I am not. I am typically asleep by 8 p.m. Um, so I'm not answering emails at night. Like that's his time to catch up on the deck.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

We're totally different people. And and I think even that dichotomy inside your own household. Now let's look at that when there's 3,500 employees across the globe, right? And and you start to look at how each of these individuals works differently. And to your point earlier, you mentioned the five generations that are in the workforce right now, and we talk about their changing expectations of work. I I also am really sympathetic to uh that generation who is like, I need the office, I need that routine, right? And I I hope that companies are able to find that middle ground, right? And I think one of the things that we've seen is there's an overcreat correction sometimes. There's, oh, some people want to go back to the office. Well, we're all going back to the office, or some people wanted remote, and so we're all, and it's just sweeping decisions across the board, and that leaves people feeling left out or feeling unuh unvalued or unimportant in those decisions. And so um I don't think I have a question here. I just think this is a super interesting, like I think it's a super interesting conversation because the companies that get this right are going to build advocates internally for the next decade. And that's advocates to stay, it's advocates to bring on other, you know, potential high, high potential employees, it's brand advocates internally and externally. And I think for maybe too long, we've overlooked the power of some of these decisions of flexibility, of autonomy, and of trust as a key factor for recruitment and retention.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Yeah, no, I completely agree. And I think that um we've done a lot internally. Uh, our engagement survey tells us that people love being remote. Like undoubtedly, it's unanimous. Everyone wants to be remote in our organization, but it also tells us that they're lonely. Um, so we also hear like, love being remote, but sometimes I'm a little lonely when I don't get to interact because some jobs are not like yours and I's where we're talking to people all day. Um they're working on a spreadsheet or doing whatever. Um, so you have to make time for intentional connections. Um, and sometimes that falls on the employee themselves to start a meeting by um not just diving in but having a conversation. Um, teams do these virtual cubicle hours where we're all working, but we're just sitting and chatting live while we're, you know, doing spreadsheet work or what have you. Um I think there's also this idea of wow, companies offloaded all of their real estate and man, that looked good on our bottom lines. Uh sure did help, right? Um, but now we need to fund time to get together in person, um, whether that's once a quarter, once a year. Um, is it the whole company? This looks different, I think, for every individual company. Um, but you have to be intentional and planful and um building out opportunities for people to come together. Um, you know, heat map your uh. Your folks and figure out where you can have maybe some picnics or um just time for connection.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Yeah, I I think the word you know that you hit on the head there is that intentional effort here. And one of the things that Velocity saw an increase on was, you know, we have the birds program and the disc profiles and that interaction that we do as off-sites. We saw an increase in that as COVID continued to ramp up and as virtual and remote work became more normal because we want to get our teams together, but we don't want it to just be, hey, we check the box, we get together, it's a day, and everyone kind of leaves feeling like, why was I, why did they fly us to Chicago for what could have been a virtual meeting? And so being intentional and saying, okay, we're gonna come up with, hey, we're gonna do a team bonding activity, we're gonna go out, we're gonna do uh, you know, we're gonna donate our time to Habitat for your humanity and we're gonna work together as a team, like doing things that that actually build the teamwork and the connection and learning how Terry works and communicates versus how Alec works and communicates. And again, building that team strength because those are things that when we talk about remote work, not only at velocity, but also on this podcast, there is that big concern that teamwork, that the integration and collaboration isn't there. And then that also increases the likelihood that someone will leave because they've just been doing their thing and no one's talking to them, and they are they might be unhappy and and aren't really, you know, maybe it's not showing in a uh in a NPS score or whatever it might be, and they're just over here and that retention fails. And so there we have to be intentional about bringing those people together, whether that is virtual cubicle hours. I have not heard that before. I think that's great. We do water cooler where it's like, hey, we're just gonna hop in for 20 minutes and pretend that we all stood at the water cooler for way too long and and and just shot the shit a little bit, and and that works really well here. So it's it is that intentional practice that you have to put in place, and it's not always gonna work the first time. I remember my first water cooler. I was like, this is going to be all I'm really busy, guys. I am really busy. I don't want a fake meeting for 25 minutes where and then now I'm like, I'm looking forward to that water cooler because it's people that I don't work with on a day-to-day basis. And now I get to just talk with them and and engage. And so some of that comes back to just that that practice and intentionality of the effort, too.

unknown 24:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Okay. I I want to take us on a complete detour, and I'm sitting in I'm sitting in someone's shoes who is listening to this, whether they are private equity board, maybe a CEO, and they're hearing everything that you and I are saying, and they agree with it, but they're not able to pull the trigger and move to this level of flexibility and trust. They're not willing to make the investment in, hey, we're gonna bring half of the team together this quarter and the other half next quarter. That that's too much for them right now to chew off on. What's the elevator pitch, Terry? Where what's the value proposition for everything that we've just talked about? And I am gonna admit that this is a really bad, this is a tough podcast question. This is not in the outline, this is not in our prep call. So you can deflect me all you want, um, and I won't be offended. But I'm curious, like, what's the what's the managing up look like? Because everything you've said, in my opinion, should be a no-brainer. And yet so many companies aren't doing it. So, how do we manage up? How do we make this pitch to to to organizations that maybe aren't believing in it and they don't think what they're doing is broken right now, even if the data suggests differently? Some of them don't even have that data, uh, let's be honest. Um, what's the what's the pitch to those individuals and the the organizations that are feeling that way?

SPEAKER_00 26:13

So um that is a tough question. I think the the first thing that I would ask is why what are you afraid of? Why um why do you feel like your employees wouldn't be successful? Or why do you feel like it's not a worthy investment um to put dollars aside to bring people together? Um is it because we're struggling with revenue and sales? Is it, you know, like understand the why as to, you know, how do I uh then pitch this in a way that um kind of appeases what their concerns are? Um I think that to your point, we can't ignore the data that exists out there and everything is telling us that um again, change is constant. Employees now need to feel empowered to do their best work. Um, we are in an environment um for better or for worse, where people are hugging their jobs. We know this. Um, it's all over LinkedIn. Um so just because your turnover rate looks really phenomenal, um, you know, Mr. COO or Mrs. CEO, what is it going to look like when things change and the market opens up again? Um people will have choices and they will make choices that are best for them. Um, I think gone are the days of loyalty um to organizations. My father worked for the same company for his entire career. Um, I talked to candidates still for a living. Um, no one that's ridiculous. No one has been at one company for their entire career. I couldn't tell you in the last four years, one single candidate of the hundreds, if not thousands, that I have talked to that have been with one organization. Um that's just not gonna happen. So you need to give people a reason to stay. Um, and I think that we cannot ignore the data that people want flexibility, they want to feel empowered. I still think that we can hold them accountable. Um, there's ways that we can qualify and quantify both of those things. Um, but you have to trust your people. Um, and at the end of the day, I think if you don't do that, um eventually the tides will turn and people will have choices. And I think we will have uh another situation on our hands where it's the what did we call it, the mass resignation. Great exit.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Yeah, max mass resignation. Yes, yeah. I so much good there. So what that was a that was a double, that was a that counts for two bad podcast questions, but it was a it was a great answer. I love starting with the why, right? Like the going back to the journalist days, five whys. Like, I want you to really paint me a picture. If it's revenue, let's talk about that. If it is lack of accountability or we're worried they're not gonna do work, let's talk about that. And so I I love that thought process. And then you tie in the job hugging, which we know, like you said, you can't go on LinkedIn, you can't go on Harvard Business Review and not see an article about job job hugging, especially in clinical research where that job market is tough to say the least, right? And it's been it's been that way on and off since 2020. Big jumps, big falls, big jumps, big falls. But at some point, again, it could be a it could be a truth social post that changes the way people see the market. And next thing you know, there's a hiring's a hiring's free, a hiring freeze. And so you said we need to give them a reason to stay. And I think if we aren't giving people a reason to stay, we're actually giving them reasons to leave. And if we are not communicating with them, we're not giving them even an inch, right? Like what are those opportunities? What does that look like? Then we're telling them, hey, we're not gonna be too upset in six months if all of a sudden you you leave. And what I know happens from personal experience and and just in the world is when that person leaves, everybody's gonna have their hands up, be like, what? No way, like they've been here for so long, and they never complained about anything, they were never vocal about this or that. And next thing you know, they're leaving, and it's like, well, what did we do over the last year that showed them that we wanted them to stay, that we were investing in them? And that can look like everything we're talking about, but it can also look like uh, you know, programs for management development, for leadership development, for upskilling and training, especially in this era of job hugging. Can we reinvest in programs to show that we believe in these individuals to keep them at the organization for the long haul? Because that is what creates loyalty. And frankly, it's still not loyalty to the organization. It's probably loyalty to a boss, to a mentor, to a leader at the individual level, but you have a much better chance of creating that if you if you are investing back into the individuals at the organization as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Yeah, and I think that is the the mindset shift from performance management to performance development. Um, and we've we've seen this, right? We've seen this out in the marketplace. Um, so our old school way of thinking was I need to manage Alec's performance. I am going to um, you know, have these KPIs that um we are going to talk about once a year, Alec, on your year-end review. And I will blindside you with all of the feedback I've been holding on to. Um it will be too late for you to change anything. So you unfortunately are just a mediocre employee now because I've not given you the space. Um pivot that to how we um should be, I should say should be working today, and that is developing our employees' performance. Um, we don't own their performance, they own their own performance, but they don't know what they don't know. Um, so if we're not giving timely feedback, if we're not giving them learning opportunities to continue to grow their skill set, to develop um their strategic mindset, their leadership skills. Um, we need to invest in our people in order to develop them and create the next future round of leaders for the organization. Um, we can't, you know, gone are the days of like hoping that they're gonna read a book and all of a sudden they're now, you know, seven habits of highly effective people and you are our next manager. Right. We need programs and investments into our employees that show that we care about their well-being and their development. People want to grow. Um, they want to continue to advance in their careers. And if they lack the opportunity to do that, um, they will go somewhere that offers them that opportunity or take a career break and do it on their own time by, you know, going back to school or whatever that looks like.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Yeah. They will find a way, right? And I think it goes to your point about the longevity of somebody being at the same organization for four or five decades, uh uh an underappreciated or or just maybe a thought that came to my mind is there's also just so many more companies to work at, right? When we talk about competitors, especially in the life sciences, I mean, there's a new technology, a new platform, a new thing coming up every day. And that was a gold mine for me on the marketing side to be like, hey, another new company, another new company. But it's it's also uh forget about the threat to the the business share and the revenue opportunity, but it's a threat to your people, right? Because that new company is gonna come up and they're gonna say, Hey, we'll probably pay you more, we'll probably invest in you more. And whether they end up doing some of those things or not is a different conversation. It is, though, a true threat in the moment. And so uh I I love that answer. And I I don't remember who said this. It was uh it was on LinkedIn a couple of weeks back, and it was maybe a little harsher than I would say it right now. So I'm gonna try to paraphrase it without it being as harsh. But essentially it was if you're not capable being a manager and a leader for a remote team, you're probably not a good manager or leader because we think about trust, we think about accountability, we think about setting clear expectations, and we think about being able to give real-time feedback and do all of the things that we would coach in a leader and a manager, they're just heightened times two, times three, maybe even times five in a remote setting, because every time you get that opportunity to connect, there's more value in it, there's more pressure for lack of a better term, in a one-on-one. If you're only going to see this person one time every week or every two weeks, or in some cases every month, you really have to be good at being a manager in order to be an effective remote first manager. And um, as I said it, I kind of I kind of agree with it. So maybe it wasn't as harsh as I as I thought, but I do think there is a little bit of that fear maybe in in that decision. And uh, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that before we get to our last question, but I wanted to bring that up because I I do I have seen that on LinkedIn quite a bit recently.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yeah, so I think it's a different brand of manager that's effective in a remote organization. Um, and what you cannot be is a micromanager. Um, because you have to just recognize you have zero control here. Um, all you can do is influence, um, develop, set people up for success, hold them accountable, of course, but um, you can't manage the way that you can when you're sitting in your corner office and looking out at a cubicle farm um where you're like, whoa, what you know, Alec, it's not break time, sit down, sit down. We're not, you know, you just have to trust and and verify, but you know, it starts with the trust.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Yeah, I the the way you worded that was way better than the way I worded it. It's it is a different brand of manager, and it does come down, I think, in a lot of ways, to that micromanaging. And uh, we do have an episode out with Jason Casarella of micromanaging versus coaching. And I highly recommend everybody go and listen to that. I do want to ask you one final question before we get into the rapid fire. Uh, you know, a little bit self-explanatory here, but I think we need to at least just cover the question because I have known to go on a rant or two about if we lose really good people on our team, the other really good people on our team are also going to start looking for jobs. And the biggest threat to retention is and turnover is high potential player number one and number two leaving. And then all of a sudden, everybody else starts to look around and say, wait a second, if they're leaving, we should probably consider leaving as well. And I want to just ask, you know, what happens internally when good people do leave? Um, because expectations, because development or leadership weren't clear, all the things that we've talked about, like those ripple effects that happen when suddenly, you know, two, three, four, five of your high potential employees that you guys did think were five, 10, 15 year staples at the organization, what is that impact? What are those unknown costs that that we need to be looking out for when those individuals do leave the organization?

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah, so I think that that is um the the cost that is hard to qualify um because it impacts the way people feel on Sunday night um before they sign in on Monday morning. Um and that is hard to take to a COO and demonstrate um why we need to invest and ensure our highest potential employees stay because of the ripple effect, because it does impact culture. Um, it impacts the morale of individuals. Um, and then there's also the whole operational side of was that person a single point of failure? Um, did they just take a knowledge base that we were um maybe too assuming that they weren't looking and that they were happy and gonna stay? And we just never invested time in documenting um or really understanding what it is that they do all day, every day. Um and I think that is even more uh risky in a remote environment when you do empower um your employees and you give them autonomy. Um sometimes it's been a little bit harder to document processes, document um knowledge basis that people have. Um, and that is at sometimes can be detrimental uh to teams and to functions, um, depending on the size of the organization. Um so it's something that I think we need to talk about more. I think if you have good managers in um, you know, leadership roles that are having candid conversations about how you feeling, Alec. Like um, I read this article on LinkedIn, thought that you would be interested. What are your thoughts and takeaways from this? Um, just feeling kind of gauging the level of engagement, um, what they're interested in, understanding can we invest in Alec uh to do bigger, better things? What are your interests? What do you see yourself in five years? These are things that I ask in an interview. We need to continue to ask those questions.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yes. Yeah. Oh, that's it's so good. I'm glad that was our last, our last question. I do want to uh I want to double tap on on one of the things that you said. And I I think about it, a lot of companies that I've worked at and have helped have had like an at-risk, right? Like we've got an at-risk list that we're worried about. And I think a lot of times we just stop it at the person. And hey, Alec is at risk. Terry is at risk, and that is only telling half of the story, right? What is at risk if Terry leaves? Does Jennifer go with her? Does Alec go with her? Does Terry have that nugget of knowledge that nobody else has? If Terry's at risk and that nugget exists, what do we do? Right. Like looking at this more than just at the one human being level, but looking at the impact across the organization. Because to your point, it can erode culture really quickly. It can also erode uh, you know, a specific skill set or knowledge gap that that the organization would then have if if that individual happened to leave the organization. So really appreciate you taking me on that one. Terry, I just looked at the clock and I cannot believe it is 8:49 Central Time. I told you that we would have a little bit of fun and we would be off and running, but I didn't think it would go by that fast because I could certainly ask you 10 more questions. And I'm already writing down in my notes that Terry is coming back at the end of 2026 and we'll do like a 2027 forward-looking episode or something like that. So I greatly appreciate the the time, the expertise, and frankly, between you and me and all the listeners, the passion that I can feel coming through the screen on this topic. But you're not off the hook yet. We've got four rapid fire questions, and then we've got the the final question of who we should interview next, and then we will get you out of here. So, four rapid fire questions, about 30 seconds each. Um, very rarely does anybody actually do 30 seconds, they're usually way over. So we'll see how you perform. Um, question number one What is one leadership habit that you rely on every single day?

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Empowerment. If I'm not empowering those around me, I am failing as a leader.

unknown 43:56

Whoo!

SPEAKER_01 43:57

Not only a fantastic answer, but a 10 Second answer at that. That buys you more time in the second, third, and fourth questions. Question number two What is the most underrated skill that a leader needs to succeed today?

SPEAKER_00 44:14

I think transparency. Um, I think people are starved for truth in a world where um you can read the same article on two different news channels and get completely different um vantage points. Um, I think people want information um and they they want the truth, and we should trust that they're um big enough to handle that. That they they've got this, so let's be transparent.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Ooh, I I love that. The the last book holding up my microphone here is Radical Candor by Kim Scott, and Clear is Kind is like my favorite. You know, let's challenge directly, let's be very clear. I so transparency as an underrated skill is fantastic. Question number three is on the opposite side of the spectrum. What is one thing that great leaders should stop doing?

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Micromanaging. I mean, I think that that is an a skill set that is no longer needed. Um, so it's sort of like an abacus. We it's just it's gone. We don't need that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Uh could not could not agree more on that one. Uh and question number four What's the best leadership advice that you've ever received?

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Oh, good one. Um, so assume positive intent, but never assume that anyone else is doing that.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

All right, you crush the 30 seconds. I want a little more on that one. Tell me, tell me more. I love, I love, I've got assume noble intent right here on my computer. So tell me uh assume positive intent, but never assume that that everybody else is doing that. Tell me more about this.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Yeah, so I think the first part is clear, right? I mean, we should all assume that people are coming at you in a positive uh manner, right? Um they're being noble, but um, we should not assume that everyone else is thinking that. So being transparent to the you know, point that you're able to be um explaining yourself and the why behind maybe your ask um so that they are fully aware of you know what it is that you're expecting.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

I I love that. And as someone who uh has a history of getting really excited and animated about things uh at the workplace, 90% of the time it's uh it is taken in a positive way because I care and I am excited and I am energetic, and that is you know my my flaming parrot uh energy. But every now and then that eagle, you know, I'm a I'm a parrot eagle, and the eagle comes out and it goes from like energy and excitement to WTF, this needs to be done. And now I'm also showing it through excitement, and it can it's a that is a really interesting perspective that I might be assuming noble intent, but somebody else might not be. Um, and that was awesome, Terry. Uh, it also, you are the first person to ever go through the final four questions in less than three minutes, and I think you did it in less than two minutes. So uh when we have our we're gonna do an end-of-year collection, I might even add an asterisk and just be like Terry Fleener, the only person to go through this process in less than three minutes. Final, final question. Who is somebody that we should interview next? Who is a leader that uh you know is doing meaningful work, whether that's inside your organization, outside your organization, somebody you know, somebody you don't know that you've worked with, so on down the line. Uh, who is someone that the Activating Greatness Podcast Network uh could learn from?

SPEAKER_00 48:12

So I have um a cloak and dagger answer for you. So I recently hired someone that I cannot share their name because they have not officially started. However, in a few weeks, I have a new ad to WCG that I think is going to turn the world upside down in the way that we think about leadership. So super disruptive, um, kind of edgy, and I'm really excited. I actually met him at Scope, Alec, where you and I met and very excited. So am I allowed to like put a pen in this?

SPEAKER_01 48:56

Oh, yeah, absolutely. You best believe uh in a couple of weeks, I will be uh I'll be sending a note over your way and saying, is it time? And then we'll we'll revisit this and we'll say, okay, this is the this is the opportunity, and we will bring them on to the activating greatness podcast. They'll be onboarding. And and hey, by the way, as part of your onboarding, you have to go talk to this other guy uh about stuff. Uh and it'll be a great portion of the the WCG onboarding process. I that's the first time someone has given me that answer, and now I am super, super intrigued. So I look forward to it, Terry. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Well, I I look forward to it too. I know they're gonna do great. Um, I think they'll be really excited about it as well. Um, and I feel like now I have two asterisks under my name.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

Yes, yeah, you've you really you challenged the status quo, which I love, but it's also why I knew this would be a fantastic episode. And here we are, close to 50 minutes later. Uh, and I think that everybody listening to this is gonna get so much out of it. And if you are listening to it, make sure you go connect with Terry on LinkedIn. Uh, she also is a uh, I think that you're a judge for some HR awards, like I was doing all of you. Like Terry is in the no. She's involved. You can find her writing articles, she's engaged on LinkedIn, she's an HR leader. So go connect with her. You also are probably thinking, man, this was a fantastic episode. Where do I get more of this? Make sure you sign up for the alerts on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, wherever you get your podcast, you can listen to the Activating Greatness podcast. I still got to prove that it works, even though we're 20 episodes in and we're doing it every Monday and Thursday now. Still want to prove that it works. So leave five-star review, leave comments, let Terry know that you you found her on LinkedIn from the Activating Greatness show. Terry, any final thoughts before I get you out of here? This has been such a fantastic episode.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

So, my my final thought is around something that you said um during our um last conversation. We talked about um talent and succession planning and you know, getting the right people into the right levels. Um, but you said something today that made me think of a disruptive thing we need to probably talk about at the end of this year. And it's the opposite of succession planning, and it's planning for your high potentials to stay. How do we create programs, thoughts, ideas around um not just finding the next leaders, but keeping our really great employees um happy, engaged, and staying, especially those uh critical points of failure. If they were to leave, they have a following that's gonna go with them. Um, so let's talk about that more next time.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

Do you have 45 more minutes right now? Let's just jump in. Terry, that I've just I've got it in, I've got more asterisk on there. Uh, you also now at you get a third asterisk that says Terry just named the next episode that we will record in the second half of the year. Um planning for your high potential employees to stay. That is a wonderful reframe. And I'm gonna bug you on that one. We'll we'll set that up for the second half of the year, Q3, Q4, because I think it's something, especially as you go into budgeting in 2027 and program planning, that will be a perfect topic. So thank you for that. And thank you again for taking now almost an hour out of your morning. Uh, I know you're most effective in the mornings now, which is great to have learned. Uh, and I appreciate you sharing that time with us, sharing your expertise and your wisdom. Uh, and I also appreciate all of the Activating Greatness listeners uh for being part of this community. The only reason that this show exists is because of wonderful guests like Terry and wonderful listeners like you. So, Terry, thank you again. And we will see everybody else on the next episode of Activating Greatness.