Darren Lewis makes his comeback to the podcast.

Darren talks us through his take on the world cup, the teams, sentiment and politics surrounding it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Now we are very excited and delighted to welcome back a friend of the show. Um I feel like we we told him what we thought about him when he first came on. So um I won't do too much, but genuinely one of the great journalists in in world football. In our view, I'm sure, DG, you agree, and co-editor of the Daily Mirror. There you go, man, 100%. Uh co-editor of the Daily Mirror and our friend Darren Lewis, also the first person, by the way, to be on twice. Um thank you very much for coming on again. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:35

I'm really well. Uh I'm really hot. We're recording this on a day when in London the temperatures are well off camera. We talked about it being a little bit like Barbados, although we are small fry by comparison. I would imagine over there they would be laughing at the idea that we even consider ourselves to be in that same uh space, but certainly a little bit high under the collar, yeah. But all good.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

It's lovely to see you, and and actually um it's it's been so interesting because obviously we were aware of one another before, but also it's just just seeing your insight and your work from the last time we met to here still kind of challenging and uh challenging narratives and also um asking the questions that that sort of go off in our hearts and our heads, but no one really in the media is articulating them. Um which I mean it brings me to like what's your story so far from this World Cup?

SPEAKER_02 1:41

I'll go with the football first, because uh it is a football festival and we have grown up enjoying a World Cup, and you're right, you do remember moments when you think about either your first World Cup, the one you fell in love with, or the one you are currently watching, or one from over the years. But certainly with this World Cup so far, guys, um it's not really a moment as such, but I was deeply impressed by the performance of Morocco in their opening game against Brazil, and for a number of reasons, the head coach Mohammed Uhabe, he only took over in March. So this was that was remarkably his first competitive game in charge against the five-time world champions. That's the context for you. And his Morocco side they were so dominant that by the first half hour they'd already racked up twelve shots on goal. And it took from that that moment of genius, didn't it? I know I don't know if you saw the game, but that moment of genius from Vinicius Jr. to score. But even after that, you had a real feeling that Brazil could so easily have fallen to what would have been a first defeat in an opening game at the World Cup Finals since wait for it, 1934. Really, really impressive from Morocco.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Wow, that would be your sort of standout African team so far, or it's hard though, because I think lots of them have done amazingly well. Uh it's a really good point, Jake.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

But you do make a good point. Lots of done of them have done particularly well. Congo uh got to give a shout out to in dispatches for getting that point against the Portuguese that are just such a brilliant but troubled squad because they are so good, but Ronaldo is playing for himself and not you know, he's 41 years of age. On the day of the game, he was 41 years and 132 days, the oldest player at a World Cup finals, and the idea of him walking around while everyone is really giving it high intensity, um it he's holding them back, but that's not the fault of Morocco, they took their opportunity to score. But the reason why I would go with Morocco is that it is unfair to make a judgment this early, but I was more impressed by their performance against one of the favourites than I was by, say, Senegal against another of the favourites, France, and the reason for that is this Senegal conceded as soon as they gave themselves even a smidgen of a lifeline with that goal that they scored late in the game, whereas Morocco were more defensively disciplined and they look better equipped. As I said before, it took that moment of genius from Vinicius to break that back line, but I can't see too many sides doing that in this tournament.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Love it. Objectively speaking, how would you say, you know, when you take a motion out of it, the the African teams are fair in general? I don't know whether I'm looking too surface level, but I see Ghana obviously will lead with for obvious reasons. Injury time winner, Ivory Coast, Cape Verde story, a draw. We all know um you know how many plaudits their goalkeepers get in. Morocco, as you say, Congo, Egypt, draw, and even the teams that have lost, you know, Senegal lost against France, one of the favourites to win the competition. Algeria, that was a messy masterclass. I feel like the African teams are showing up and doing really well. But what's your kind of objective view?

SPEAKER_02 5:31

If you take out Morocco, I've been more taken by the smaller African nations than I have by some of the bigger African nations. Cape Verde, as you say, outstanding, disciplined performance, good technical ability as well, surprisingly good technical ability, but a real willingness to work. And the context, of course, everyone's spoken about the goalkeeper Voisinia. Um some people nickname him Liam, Liam Voisinia. Um but um let's see what I did there. I think as far as uh Cape Verde are concerned, uh they are a reason for it being the right thing to make this a 4018 World Cup. Lots of the purists say that it should be, and I'll I'll come back to this later on, but lots of the purists say that it should be a closed shop, that it should be just a bigger nation so that you've got that high level of quality. But Cape Verde and the c and Congo and the countries that have come in and done so well give this legitimacy as a genuine global competition. It's not like the World Series with just three teams or two teams or whatever it is in it, it is a genuine World Cup with interest from all over the planet and countries that are able to use the opportunity on the big stage to invest in their infrastructure so that they can come back and be better. So, if you're asking me for another of the moments, certainly Cape Verde, because they captured the imagination and the hearts of so many people around the world. The goalkeeper he had 20,000 followers on social media before the Spain game, where he performed so heroically and held the European champions to a goal of straw. After the match, he had 5.1 million followers. That's how much the world has taken him to their hearts.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Yeah, I think he's at he's at 14 million right now, which is wild.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Um are you one of those 14 million, Gov?

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Uh I'm not, but I can make it 14 million one for sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

And I'll make it 14 million and two, and I'll and I'll add mine to that as well. Um what were you gonna say, Gov, before I rudely interrupted you?

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Um no, you're fine. I mean, I don't know whether we want to move on to kind of broader than football now, but I was gonna ask about a story I came across where Vozinia's mother is is allowed to to travel in now, and I think my kind of entrance point um via Darren to this tournament was you being you know quite outspoken and giving amazing context on um um the referee that wasn't allowed to um do his job at this world car, Omar Artan. How do you kind of look at you know those situations and who's allowed to do their job? The the fact that Borzini's mother can travel now, and obviously it's a great story, but how do you kind of reconcile that with your broader view of what's happening politically?

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Jinogav, I'm so s glad you gave it that context because it is a great story, but how did we get here? Uh now for the people who are listening to this pod who don't know uh about the story of these individuals you're talking about. Omar, let's start with him first because it really is a spectre that these games will never escape, no matter how good this World Cup continues to be. Um, Omar Artan is one of the world's best referees. Uh he was voted African referee of the year last year, he ahead of the World Cup, he arrived at border security, and he had an interview to the New York Times where he talked all about this, to an 11-hour interrogation. He was then taken to a separate holding room where he was detained. I called it a room, you might call it a cell, that's up to you. He was detained for more several more hours before he was put back onto a plane to uh Istanbul, where he is based. Now, at the time he said there was no reason given to him for sending him back. Since then, the US government has made claims about him and their reasoning for sending him back, for which they have yet to provide even a shred of evidence. Now, as I said, it was last year that he was named as the continent's best referee. He officiated at the um the Africa Cup of Nations in 2023. He's been a FIFA referee, guys, for eight years since 2018. So yeah, we can I you're so right, Gov. It is so good to talk about the love that he has been shown, but it should never have been the case that that set of circumstances had to come up in the first place. There's an irony about the fact that he has become more well known and more loved and been you know benefited so much in a variety of ways than if he had actually officiated the game at this World Cup, which is a big irony, but you know, it's not just him, you've got the Iraq striker Ayman Hussein detained by seven hours. Seven hours. A footballer by border security, you've got the Uzbekistan team who were subjected to sniffer dogs before they were allowed in. Pictures that we've seen suggest the Senegal team, check this, were searched on the tarmac before they were even allowed into the terminal. And there is, sad to say, a common denominator in all of these cases involving either people of colour, people who are Muslim, people who are from Asiatic countries. I will leave you to work it out. There was a moment, you know, before you can come in, David, there was a moment where as I was speaking, I just I saw you just rest your head on your um fist as if to say I I this is really something.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Yeah, and and and that moment is something that I was in a talk recently, and the person that was hosting the talk, uh so everyone in the audience was a person of colour, and the person who was hosting the talk put up a picture of the flags at one of these marches, uh Tommy Robinson march. And he said to us, How does that make you feel? And shock wasn't a word that came out from people, which is interesting. But fatigue was one. Tired was one, frustrated from some of the younger ones, anger but so that rest on that head resting on my hand was just a mixture of those words, really. You know. Um I think where I draw hope from this World Cup, and I I'd be interested to see what you think, because you said about uh what like the stories around Cape Verde being you know stories that justify making this World Cup bigger. Um I saw a an exchange of shirts. I think it was uh Cape it was who did Spain play?

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Yeah, it was Cape Verde.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Cape Verde, I think yeah, uh it was an exchange of shirts from fans and these fans hugging each other, and I love seeing moments like that where humanity rises above this level of like hate, of oppression, of agenda, whatever it is that is being driven, and it looks like it's being driven from the top over there. Uh these moments that just cut through and and call something deeper within us. Um, and it's why I love sport. It's why I think sport has a real opportunity, and time a time time and time again it does things like that. We s we spoke about Governor B and I spoke about um you know the 1930s German Olympics, what Jesse Owens did there, you know, in the face of what the rhetoric that was happening out there. So I hope that one of these teams goes really deep and these stories continue to shine a light on that side of humanity. Um any any thoughts on on that?

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Well, yeah, I mean I I would agree with you because it's actually football's ability to connect the world, and it's very easy to reach a conclusion that this is a problem with Americans. When actually, as you said, it's a problem with the American politicians, but the people I've been to America many, many times, and I've it it's been welcoming, it's been uh an area where I felt at ease, at peace, and we are seeing numerous examples in what is a social media world cup, let's not kid ourselves, of fans from different cultures and countries embracing each other. I saw the Mexican and the Korean fans dancing to gang style. I saw which was quite something. Um I saw the Mexican duck wearing a Mexican shirt walking down the streets, boulders brass, but that's another story. Um, Ghanaian fans and Sweden fans, uh, there are just so many fantastic examples of fans from different countries and cultures embracing each other, dancing with each other. Uh, I saw the fans in in in Boston embracing the Scottish fans, which was wonderful because I didn't realise there had been a connection between the two the state and the country. But it has really connected the world, and that's even more of a reason why this expanded 4018 World Cup could not have come at a better time because there are so many, as you know, there are so many entities working to drive wedges between sections of our society. But what we are seeing from this is that the people, the people who are able to go and meet, talk, greet, hug, laugh with, drink with, eat with, commiserate with, celebrate it with uh celebrate with other people, they are able to find out first hand that when you don't see the world through the prism of social media and the algorithms that try to convince you that everyone is at each other's throats, you realize that there is humanity and love and kindness and generosity and something that is so very tangible when you come into contact with people who are not from your part of the world.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

My favourite, my favourite one, quick, quick, quick one. Did you guys see the Irish pub in Edinburgh that has become an Ivory Coast pub? Did you see that? Genius. I love the Irish, I love it, my guy switched the flag the other way round and was like, I'm now where Ivory, bro. It is I don't know if you've seen it, Girl. It is so uplifting and so wonderful and speaks to what you say. But down to business, I want to ask you a big talking point. Drinks breaks. Yes. What are your thoughts? Should football just become four quarters, give the coaches a chance to come in and do what they need to do. Obviously, I think they said the last at the last count that I saw 300 million had been made in the ad in the ad breaks at that time. You know, you have to give it to uh to your man there. He is like, he's not he's doing it with his chest. He's like, I'm gonna make as much money as possible in these four years. Um, but what would what's your what's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 17:41

My thoughts are the same as your thoughts, and I would imagine your viewers' thoughts and thousands, millions of people around the world, four quarters, guys. It goes against all the fundamentals of football, the sport that we all fell in love with. Uh, and to be fair, many of us realised straight away that the hydration breaks were ad breaks in disguise. Let's not kid ourselves. We knew straight away. Uh, and so many of the stadia in the US they are air conditioned, the temperatures are simply not extreme. I had I know this because I've been to the US on multiple occasions over the past 25 years uh with Premier League teams on preseason tournaments, uh, and I can tell you their sporting infrastructure in the US in many ways is superb. And on top of all of that, why does the break have to be three minutes? Why does it have to be by the technical area? Why is it not 45 seconds to a minute on the other side of the pitch so that you don't have coaching? Because why would you bring in laws to crack down on time wasting only to disrupt the momentum of the game with a waste of time? These hydration breaks, as you say, to you know, everyone's always making money somewhere. Okay, it's not just one person, everyone is, and they already have a drink sponsor. Uh forgive me because I know I'm saying a lot, but we already know at the point of recording this that what are we four or five games into match day two, yeah, the second round of matches in these group stages, and over 50% of the games have seen goals scored within 10 minutes of a hydration break. The momentum is materially affected by them, it is a hindrance, not a help. I'll give you one very quick example. Curacao scored against Germany, uh, Germany were all over the place, tiny Curacao against the four-time world champions, and sudden and they score an equalizer. Now, when they score this goal, you think to yourself, okay, could they really make a game of this? Then you have the drinks break, Germany get the opportunity to recalibrate, and suddenly they sweep them aside. Ruthlessly impressive, you have to say, but had that drinks break not been there, you just wonder how that first half could have turned out. I'm not saying by any stretch of the imagination that Curaçao would have won, but their momentum was definitely affected.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Darren, yours any pushback, Governor B? Nah, not really. I've I've been to the Mercedes-Benz Stadium in Atlanta to see Atlanta play a few years ago, and I was wowed by the spectacle of it all. You know, growing up, having been to many many stadiums to watch football, I just couldn't believe how commercial the experience was. They had TVs in the toilets, um things were happening during the game that I've never seen happen at a football match before. So it doesn't it doesn't surprise me. Um which kind of brings me on to what I wanted to ask, Darren. You've been doing this a long time, you're very experienced. I'm not sure if there's much that surprises you, but what are kind of your hopes for FIFA as an as an institution in terms of positive change? Because, you know, we had the World Cup in Qatar, it was spoken about a lot that um the love of football wasn't the primary factor by which decisions were made. It's now gone to America, we're saying the same thing. Does there come a point where we're like, guys, let's get back to putting football first place? And will that happen with this current FIFA? I don't want to call it a regime, but the way things are currently set up.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

As you're asking me, I kind of sense a bit of resignation in your voice. Is that what you think?

SPEAKER_00 21:35

I just don't know how we come back from here, man.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Really? And do you feel the same, David?

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Um I s slightly different. I think that uh I think um progression is never linear. So sometimes you get highlights of things and what it that what it does is hold up a mirror. To companies, to societies. And so I I think these things are cyclical, but I do think we may hopefully we will progress. But yeah, it is I mean, it's really tough when sort of peace awards and are being given and people are being searched on tarmac's and not let into a country. It's it's really tough. I I I personally, and I know I I don't know if this was the same for you, Gov, but I struggled to get into this World Cup because of those things. I struggled. Like usually I am absolutely gutted if I've missed the game or you know, like I love my job, as you know, but sometimes they want to film on times when the when football games are on, and I've I've put in a position but then no one's picking it up. But but I I didn't have that this time. I just would like to see the score comes through and go, okay. And so so that's really quite dangerous when it starts to attack people that are genuine fans of the sport, but I'm hoping that like I say, progression is is is never linear, and so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

I think I I th I think you make a really good point about um so many other things actually. I was just thinking to myself, I could just sit here and listen to you, David, because you make so much sense. Um I do think that's my job. The football in many ways has saved the FIFA uh because that we have had a number of areas that have really captivated the global audience, the A-list strikers who have turned up to the party, Kane Mbappe, Haaland, uh Laminia Mal still really to get going, uh the uncertainty uh and the drama around Ronaldo's underperformance, and then you've got the romance of the World Cup, Curaçao, as I mentioned before, Congo holding Portugal, um, and you've got the enigma around the European champion Spain, you know, what do we make of them having drawn that first game? Um so there are a number of the big countries around whom there are narratives, and then obviously you've got all of the fun that people are having in the sun at the stadia around uh Canada, Mexico, and the US. But I I think you are right, the questions around the organization of it and the long-term direction of the world governing body they will not go away. In fact, they will intensify. And to your point, I do think that FIFA does need to be more neutral. We need to scrap peace prizes for anyone, let alone them precedents. And FIFA needs to kind of stop allowing itself to be swept away by its impact on events outside sport. I say it's football's impact on events outside sport, and by that I mean this. We do know that football has the ability to affect areas of our society and to engage audiences, that other sectors of our society spend millions and millions and millions of pounds trying and failing to affect to impact. But there's an argument for saying that FIFA's kind of allowed itself to get carried away with that and believe that it is responsible for that impact rather than the actual sport. And the Peace Prize is an example, it's got zero to do with football. Now I want to be fair and say that I do think FIFA has done incredibly well to expand the global game. For example, the World Cup, I said it before, the purists would prefer to keep it a closed shop, almost a global champions league. But FIFA definitely does have a perception issue and it does have uh it is in danger of uh eating itself if it doesn't get back to the basics. If if you're sympathetic to them, you would say that they have lost control of this World Cup. I cannot for a second believe that the FIFA President in Johnny Infantino would have wanted the hydration breaks, but when you take it to American audiences, they want those breaks, they want to monetize those breaks. I would imagine FIFA President Infantino has nothing to do with US border policy. The size, the power, the contracts of a legitist uh of a litigious a number of litigious entities in the US are are such that it has been it's lost control, it's been powerless at its own World Cup. So there are areas that are not as cut and dried as we might think. But I certainly do think that FIFA needs to take a step back after this World Cup and kind of get back to basics, focus on the football, because if it does that, then it's got a chance of going in a more positive, healthy direction. But if it starts to get involved in politics and then when it gets too hot to handle, it says nothing to do with us, but all of the people within the FIFA family are affected, they're searched, they're dehumanized, they're embarrassed and humiliated and disenfranchised, then it has a problem which is entirely of its own making.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Incredible answer, as expected. Um thank you so much for the context that you you give and share. Um we learn a lot, and I'm sure our listeners will as well. I thought if we could um wrap up by asking you a few, let's say, light-hearted questions. Okay. Um as long as your answers are light-hearted responses, you can go wherever wherever you want to go with it. Uh so I'll ask the first one. We can go back and forth, BG. The first thing that comes to mind when I say the beautiful word, Ghana.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Oh. And I want to ask, actually, I mean you're very proudly, you've got that black stars picture up behind you. Can you do those moves, Gov?

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Um I'm getting on a bit now, so I don't know if I can do any of the same the same VIN. I'll definitely attempt though. I'll attempt it if we if we beat England.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Okay, do you is that a promise? I I are you committing to that here and now on the pod. If you were to beat England, you on the pod will obviously pan out a bit. I'm assuming uh Tim behind the get behind the microphone, you can't see him at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

But we can do that.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

We can do that, Dave?

SPEAKER_01 28:52

We can yeah, Tim's gives given the thumbs up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Okay. First thing that comes to mind when I say Cameroon.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Oh, um, to be fair, it's still the same thing as before. Roger Miller. Um, he is still the guy, he's still the dance, still the wiggle in the corner. I I actually have a mem an even more distinct memory because they played Columbia in that famous World Cup, and uh he robbed, I think it was Carlos Valderama, one of the Colombian players on the halfway line, and he's racing in on goal, Roger Miller, and all the way as he races in on goal unchallenged, he's laughing to himself, and it reminded me so much of when you're at school and you do something similar, and you can't believe you're lucky and you're just giggling before you get to that, you get to the line and and and you get down on your hands and knees and you roll it in with your head.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

That's amazing, man.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Love that memories. I love that. I don't have a copy of these quick fire questions, Governor B, but I'm quite enjoying listening to your to your voice and Darren's go backwards and forwards.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

So I feel like you'll enjoy the next one. We're talking about our noisy neighbours um that unfortunately or fortunately aren't in this competition. Uh first thing that comes to mind when I mention Nigeria Tears, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Uh because um they are good enough to be at this World Cup, but they are a symptom of what I believe is still affecting some African nations, which is mismanagement, poor choices to lead big nations, big players, and uh poor administration as well, because these are European stars who have established themselves, and don't we guys? We ask for so much respect for African players and African nations and Afghans, and where we talk so much in positive terms about the rise of African football, but sometimes we can be our own worst enemy in terms of the decision-making processes, and I would imagine the Nigerians will look at this tournament, see some of the teams that are there, and think to themselves, how with the quality running through the spine, the squad of the Nigeria team, are we not there instead of this nation, that nation? I want to name a few names, but it wouldn't be fair to do that. But there are some teams that I would say are definitely inferior to Nigeria.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Agreed. How about um one of the teams you spoke about when you first came on today, Morocco? Um, I would personally say sore losers, but it seems as though it's all been forgotten now. Um but what would you say?

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Um well to be fair to them, uh that was the AFCON, and this is the World Cup, and it's a totally different and as we know now that there have been rules brought in there, you cannot now leave the field of player for any. I mean, I still think if you if it's a point of principle that doesn't relate to football, should we say, I still think there are some things that are bigger than football, but if it relates to decision making within the context of the 90 minutes, I can see the point of that. In terms of on the pitch, Morocco look as though they are going to make a serious impact at this competition. And for all the reasons that I said earlier, in involving the new manager who took over in March, I think that would be a huge, huge, huge statement. The quality is there, the defensive base is there. I don't know if they're prolific, as prolific up front as you would need to be to win a World Cup. That's the only thing that would be uh in the minus box, if you like. But as far as Morocco are concerned, they looked more like Brazil in that first game than the Brazilians did.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

And we'll end with Senegal. I would still love a world where I mean the dream world would be the final, but in a knockout game, Senegal get to play Morocco and we get to run it back. Well, that would be a spectacle.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

It would be the most spectacular grudge match, wouldn't it? Um and I I think rather than having the the guys on on uh the touchline with the sponges and the stretches, I think you would probably have to get a couple of ambulances on the touchline because I think it might turn it might go very quickly from being a World Cup match to a UFC tournament. Um but but I think it you're right, it would be fascinating if those two teams were to meet on the global stage because then obviously with every in even a wider public would become aware of the context of what had happened. And you know what's interesting about you asking me that question? We still have not had a resolution to what was one of the most ludicrous footballing decisions I can remember. So maybe if they were to meet in this tournament, the pressure would be on the uh uh the the casts uh to resolve this far more quickly. I think I might grow some hair before they do though.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Yeah, man. Amazing. Thank you so much, Darren.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Always a pleasure, man. It's a pleasure to be on here and congratulations to you both on on a wonderful pod, and also to you, David. I know that you have some.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Um so just to say, as we record this, it's it's June 19th, which um I think we would be remiss not to mark uh the fact that it is Juneteenth, uh, which is a federal holiday in the United States, uh, and celebrated annually on June 19th to commemorate the end of slavery in the country, uh, marking the exact day in eighteen sixty-five when enslaved African Americans in Galveston, Texas finally uh received word of their freedom. So uh quite an important day to mark, um since the World Cup's there. So we thought we'd do that. Uh listen, it's been great catching up with uh with Darren, with Timothy, with Gov with you guys. Uh I hope you are enjoying the World Cup. Like, let us know on Instagram, follow us on Instagram, uh, let us know some of your highlights, anything that we missed, anything that you'd like us to ask any of our guests, or even Timothy whilst he's out there. Um, but um, yeah. Nothing but love and peace.