The Fastest Gravel Wheels Ever Made.

Go inside the design of the fastest gravel wheels ever made. 

Roval Category Leader Chris Wehan and Olympian + Unbound Champion Sofia Gomez Villafañe pull back the curtain on the development of Roval Terra Aero CLX and Terra CLX III—two wheels built for the fastest gravel races on earth.

We break down Virtual 70 aerodynamics, real‑world tire + rim system performance, 21% more compliance, massive flat‑protection gains, and how these wheels influence race strategy at Unbound Gravel, Big Sugar, Sea Otter, the UCI Gravel World Championships, and more.
If you’re into gravel tech, race‑day speed, equipment testing, or behind‑the‑scenes product development, this episode delivers the full story: the motivation, the engineering challenges, the breakthroughs, and the athlete feedback that shaped the final result.

Topics we cover:
• Why aero matters now in modern gravel racing
• Virtual 70 and why Terra Aero is faster without going deeper
• 21% compliance gains on Terra CLX III and where you feel them
• Flat protection and why bead hook design can save your race
• What Sofia feels on course—and how speed shows up in hour 5 and 6
• How Roval’s engineering team partnered with athletes from the very first prototype
• Which wheel to choose for Unbound, Big Sugar, Worlds, or everyday gravel riding

Featuring:
Sofia Gomez Villafañe — Unbound Gravel Champion, Big Sugar winner, Olympian, Multi-time National Champion
Chris Wehan — Category Leader, Roval Components, Pretty fast on a bike
Built for the roughest terrain. Designed for the fastest riders. Developed for real‑world race conditions across Kansas, Arkansas, California, and every gravel course in between.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Specialized Bicycles Podcast. I'm Ben Capron, and this is where we go behind the curtain to talk to the creators and the riders who are working hard to make your ride better. Today we're talking about the Revol Terra wheels that we've recently launched. The Terra CLX3, the lightest gravel wheel that's ever been created, and the Terra Aero, the most aerodynamic and fastest gravel wheel ever created. And to help us talk through the creation of this product and what it means when you're actually riding it and racing it, are two amazing humans who have each had a very instrumental role in bringing these wheels to the world. Sophia Gomez Via Fanier and Chris Wehan. Sophia really needs no introduction. One of the leading forces in gravel racing as well as off-road mountain biking for years and years, not only in terms of the results that are achieved, which are amazing. I mean, Sophia, Unbound Gravel 200, you won that. Leadville Trail 100 won that. Multiple time lifetime uh Grand Prix winner, incredible. Cape Epic winner, five-time national champion in Argentina. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 1:15

I think so, probably between XC and Short Track. Yeah, I would think that's correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

And so those those palmares are are able to be seen, and we all watch those races, and it's incredible. The thing that's so amazing to me is how well-rounded you are and the force that you've been in transforming racing, particularly in gravel, advocating for parity of men and women in racing, advocating for and successfully achieving women's only starts. And you're also really known for the way that you race, your tenacity, your strength, your technical acumen. And then on a product side, we've been so grateful to receive the insights that you provided. And we're going to talk about some of those today. So absolutely fantastic to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Cool. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Chris Wehan is our other guest today. And Chris leads the entire Rovol Components aspect of what we do. So wheels and other components, cockpits, seat posts, bars, many things, but also involved on the gravel side from as long as Specialized has been involved with gravel, one of one of the parents of the first Diverge. And so it's great to have you on the team, Chris, and to have you here on the podcast, really interested to talk about the creators and the riders, in this case, you two, and how it comes together to create product that really evolves the sport and advances the sport for all of us. And namely the two of the Terra wheel sets that are up this year, brand new introductions. And for the first time, there's an offering in our gravel wheel set and the Terra CLX3, the lightest production gravel wheels ever produced, amazing, at just over a thousand grams with valves and tape. We always like to say that. Ready to roll. Basically, a one kilo gravel wheel set. Holy smokes! But that's just one aspect. There's so much we're gonna unpack with that. And then sure to be a very important product, the Terra Arrow, the first time we've ever used the wind tunnel and worked with athletes to create a gravel arrow wheel set that is so significant. And we're gonna really dive into those, but first I want to talk with you, Sophia, about how has gravel evolved? You've been in it basically from the beginning, and speeds are faster, terrain is different, tactics are shifting. Give a little insight to the evolution of gravel, if you would.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yeah, I think when I first started racing gravel, the mentality was like, all right, what are the narrowest tires I can ride? You know, I think I did when I won Unbound, I think I won it in 42 mil Pathfinders. And now I I I would just not even think about riding that type of tire. I'm like, give me 50s, give me mound bike tires if I'm on the diverge, uh, the new diverge. So yeah, it's come a long way. I think there's been a lot of testing and trial and error from the rider's perspective. Obviously, you know, with this whole big carb movement, people athletes are being fueled, so we get to go faster. Um and we are seeing, you know, unbound times go from like 12 hours on the men, and now they're racing in eight and a half, nine, which is like bonkers to think that they're doing 200 miles at that type of speed. And, you know, for the women, we started, it was first mass start, so it was more of like a VO2 effort, who could hang on to the men the longest, and hopefully you don't detonate yourself and you can make it to the finish. And that was how I won Unbound. It was, you know, I rode like crazy because I thought there was a girl that was still in the main group of a bunch of boys. And I got up there and that moment where it lulled, and I kind of went to the front to find um my husband Keegan and my teammate Russell, and I was like, hey guys, I'm here, and there's no other chicks, you know? And now, yeah, we have our separate starts, it's becoming more tactical. Um, yeah, nutrition plays a big role, equipment choice, and we race all types of terrains. We'll race 200 miles in Emporia, Kansas, and it can be muddy, it can be chunky. We race gravel, SBT gravel and steamboat. That's what we call champagne gravel. It almost feels like a road uh type of course. And then you race something like BWR California that they just pack single track in there. So yeah, the the demands on the equipment are high. And yeah, I think that's been a big push uh from athletes, you know, two brand managers, two engineers of like, okay, how can we make our current equipment even better? Because it's not like we just race a road race that we're always on the road or an XC track where there's like this amount of drops, and it's like not really. Maybe you have a couple more rocks or a little bit more roots, but it's normally the same soil, like just our environment changes so much depending on where we're racing.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

So absolutely. So many areas of evolution. It's like the universe is expanding and changing in every direction. I want to hone in on a couple things that you said there, particularly around the way that the speeds are increasing. Things are getting so much faster and competitive, and the times are dropping, the tactics are shifting, equipment is evolving. Aerodynamics starts to play a bigger role as speeds go up. And that's kind of a great way to get into the Terra Aero wheel set. Like, what do you think the role is of aerodynamics in modern gravel racing today? How important is it?

SPEAKER_00 6:44

It's huge. I mean, you know, yeah, you do have a big component of okay, you are starting all together and this, you know, you're maybe not going quite as fast as the road, but a lot faster than you do on the moun bikes. Um but a lot of the women, we like to win solo off the front. And that is really when the aerodynamics really matter. You know, if you're in a big bunch or in a group of 10 and there's always draft, like those marginal gains, they're well, they're not marginal gains because they're actually huge gains, but they become more marginalized. But when you're solo on your own and you're committing, okay, I'm attacking 50K out, you know, I've done a stage race in Oregon that I did 60 miles by myself. And it's like at those moments, it's like, yeah, you just want to make sure that you're cutting through the air as effectively as you possibly can, and that you have not only your body, but all the equipment from the wheels to the tires to the bike to the helmet to the socks to the gloves, like everything as dialed as possible. So you all the energy that you're producing and it's going to your pedals, it's propelling you forward as best as it can.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Right. So as speeds go up point blank, aerodynamics becomes more important. I mean, the resistance we feel as riders as we move through the air is exponential as speeds increase. It's not linear. So as these speeds have been going up, you're mainly fighting against the wind resistance, unless you're on a climb. So it's big. And then I love what you said. Like when you get away off the front and you like to win alone, it's basically a TT.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Right. So it's like power against whatever force you're working against, and the main one is going to be wind resistance. It's really important. Like a lot of people don't think about that. And maybe a lot of riders at home aren't racing or aren't thinking about aerodynamics in the context of gravel. But when you really get down and analyze it, it's a huge factor. Chris was telling me a little bit about uh a ride that you guys did in Chile when we launched the Epic Eight, which you supported on. And Chris, I'd like to turn attention to you and ask about this conversation that you had, the epic ride that you had. And what was some of what were some of the points that Sophia shared that that stuck with you and that had an impact on these new Terra wheels?

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Yeah, no, this is a really good one. So I'd say what one the ride, I think it was like we had met a few times, but it was like the first time we'd actually spent like an extended period of time together. And we'd done the epic thing, and I think Sophia was like, yeah, I'm going for a four or five hour ride. Maybe it was less. I I remember it did not bring enough food or water. Um, and she's like, Oh, I got this route, let's let's roll. And so we went on this long ride, and just I know that's the beauty of riding, right? You just end up spending a lot of time and talking to each other. And it was fun to just one get to know Sophia better than just like, hey, she's an athlete, and I see her for an hour a couple times a year at an event or something like that. And to just really understand, like, how does she see gravel? How does she see cycling? Like, what aspects don't I know from like I'm not a professional, I'm not in those those points. And so, really, just I mean, we spent four or five hours just honestly talking and getting to know each other. Me just asking tons and tons of questions when you know, and I could keep up. Um when you could breathe.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Yeah, when I'm suspecting you were on the rivet.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Yeah, no, and we we pushed it hard and we had some hike a bike sections. We got perfectly lost. I will say, I do remember this one. We get to this like little village at the ocean, and I think we were like looking up, like, is that the road can't possibly be the right? That looks like something just cut in the side of the mountain. And it was like the steepest road I have ever been on.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

It's like what 30% trail or something. It was uh it was a hike a bike. Yeah, it was but it was either we went up that or we added another hour and a half. So we're like, no, we just go up. I got dropped on that section.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Yeah, it was it was brutal. Um, but either way, like going back to it, it was for me, it was just like trying to understand like how Sophia saw gravel, yeah, and like what didn't I know? And we were already writing the product brief and trying to understand, like, hey, what were you doing? And and originally we were just gonna do an aero wheel. Like I've always kind of come from the roadside, aerodynamics, speed, like that was just the nomenclature in the way I I understood cycling. And actually, after talking to Sophia and just understanding the dynamics of the racing and how she saw it, we definitely added back the Terra CLX3 into the line. Was like, no, we actually really need a lightweight solution. The acceleration, how Sophia and riders like her win races, like that acceleration, creating the gap, um, especially just you know, like she was saying, like at those times, it was I need to catch on to the men, right? And it was all about that acceleration. I was like, wow, we really need something light, but then also hearing just like courses are getting tougher to tire sizes are going up, and like the fatigue and impact on the body of having kind of a harsh wheel. And so coming out of that, like a concrete thing was like, Yeah, we had to dip the lightweight wheels back into the line because it's like oh we need it because our riders use that as performance advantage, and two, like gravel is ever expanding, right? And that's the beauty of it. Like, it's not singular, like it is almost on road.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

That's great. I'm gonna I'm gonna punctuate a few things that you shared because I think that they're really important. One is you were able to ride with Sophia for five hours. Like, we talk about voice of rider, voice of creator. The reality is everyone who's a creator here at Specialized is a rider, and all of our top athletes are creators, like you're contributing to the product that we create in this philosophy of maiden racing. Like you're out there racing, you're creating the tactics and the strategies. No one knows better than you what's working, what's not, what you need. So we listen to that. In this case, listening on the side in the saddle for five hours and getting to know each other and building rapport that results in the kinds of breakthrough products that advance the ride that you've created. So I want to just note that. Like, I think that's pretty cool, you know, and so real. And the other thing is that this one conversation had such a significant difference in the what we're bringing to market. Like Sophia saying, as you said earlier, there's different types of racing, there's different types of needs, there's different courses, there's different strategies. Sometimes I need a really light wheel to accelerate and make the bridge or accelerate for another purpose, like to drop a certain rider and get away solo. And so you brought that back in. And then here we have now two offerings so that there's more arrows in the quiver for the racer to ride. So direct translation. That's amazing. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Yeah, and actually, as you guys were talking about, it's like to me, it's like the professionalism of gravel and like where it's taken it. Like you need to give riders like all the opportunities to fine-tune like their setup for that day, right? Different tires, different wheels, different combinations, because like how a race is won or lost is gonna be so dynamic, just given the day and the weather. And like I think that's the cool thing about gravel. Like road, we I don't say we know, but like it's a little bit more uniform. And gravel, it just you just you're watching these races and you just never know what's gonna happen. Like thunderstorm comes in and like, wow, that's totally different than it was five minutes ago.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Absolutely, absolutely. So let's take the wheels one by one. We've already established there's two Terras now. There used to just be one top dog, now there's two. The one that's probably most different and really gonna make a huge impact, I think, on the course and for riders all around the world is the Terra Arrow. Like, what was the seed of that idea? And just talk us through like the inception and then a little bit on the development process. How did that wheel come to be? And then how did you end up making it what it is?

SPEAKER_02 14:30

Yeah, it's a really good question. So thinking back on like unbound 22, you know, we were already trying to push like repeat as an option. Wheel is pretty wide external, works pretty well with 38s and 40 tires. We know there's an aerodynamic advantage, we're already seeing speeds go up. And again, it was how do we give our riders a competitive advantage? And so we're already pushing that. And then in 23, we started to have the inkling of again optimizing arrow where it matters most, the front wheel, optimizing weight where it matters most, the rear. And so we were starting to push repeat front terror rear of hey, how do we optimize these things and give you again, like just you're talking about marginal gains, like hey, here's this marginal gain. We can give you a little bit of weight back, we still maintain arrow. And so, really, it was you know, coming from those things, like our riders are going faster, races are being won, whether breakaways or these packs are getting slimmed down, like it's there. So for us, it was like, okay, great, you know, repeat for the dirt. How do we bring an aerodynamic, stable, fast wheel to gravel racing?

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Got it. So so you were clear, the team was clear, speeds are going up, arrows going to be more important. You were already trying some road solutions on the gravel, what's working, what's not. So it was it was kind of marinating. And this is going back, what, three years ago, more, four years ago? Four years. Long development cycle. Long development, amazing.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Yeah, I remember even at uh BWR California in 23. That was the first time you guys were like, you should try running the repeat front and the CLX rear. Um, and it caught a lot of people's eyes, actually, on why I was having mismatch wheels.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

I totally forgot about that. You were the first one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

No, I, you know, I'm I am the type of athlete, and I think this is why I become I a lot of my success comes from I really trust the experts that are around me. Like I don't think I know it all. Like I will never really question my coach too much in coaching. I'm like, she knows best. Like, same thing with my strength coach, same thing with the engineers. And like there are so many people that are like way smarter than me, without a doubt. And I respect that. So anytime I'm suggested to do something, it's like, well, don't knock it till you try it, you know, because you really don't know. And it's sometimes like how I also push back, you know, like there's been so many times that the road engineers have come um to race gravel races and like they're running a size smaller tire. And I'm like, well, have you tried? Have you tried running the bigger tire? Like you guys should be on different setups, and then you can like connect after and see, like, oh yeah, I felt maybe yeah, the smaller tire here was really fast, but man, having the bigger tire there, really we saw that advantage, you know? So um, yeah, it's kind of that relationship of like, as an athlete, you have to understand what you like, but you can't diss on a product or diss on an idea until you try it because you just don't know.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

You even if you think stay open-minded, trying to learn new things, listen to others and trying it out.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Yeah, like if in 22 I would have been, you guys would have been like, you should run 47 tracers at umbound, I would have laughed. Now, looking back, that would have been a really genius idea.

SPEAKER_03 17:45

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Yeah, it's that kind of like evolving thing and just yeah, being having the mindset of like, okay, I will try it, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, and then at least you know. But if you don't try, you will never know.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

That's amazing. I mean, it's like in Zen, like beginner's mind, right? Like the mind that's all full, that knows everything, has nothing to learn, right? So if we want to grow, we want to evolve, we gotta stay open to different things. It doesn't mean everything's gonna work, but we want to try stuff, particularly when the source is trusted. And I think that's why you as an athlete and other riders who really are integral to who we are, it's a similar mindset at the end of the day. Like we might do a product that we really think is great, but we're always on to the next thing. We're always how do we bridge from there? You know, how do we move forward? So thanks for sharing that. I love that. So, Chris, you knew Arrow was key going way back 23 and before you were you were trying stuff out, and then so how did it turn into an actual product?

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Yeah, so you know, our standard development process, like for me as the product manager, it's really around capturing the voice of the writer, right? Like, what are the needs we're trying to do? Like, what's the center and what's gonna be meaningful to those writers? And like writing it down in a way that our engineers or everybody can look at it and say, great, like I understand where the writers are coming from, I understand the problems that they have, and then we can start solutioning, right? I think you were talking about it. You don't want to come in with all the solutions because that like pigeonholes you. You come in with, hey, here's the set of problems, and like that's my job is to like listen to writers like Sophia and just you know, the riders I ride with on a Saturday, and just what are you guys seeing? What are you feeling? Like, what problem can we solve today? And then as a group, we sit down and we talk through every problem and just what are the potential solutions for that? And you end up with just this massive solution set, like, oh, we could do these 375 things. And then the tough part becomes like, okay, well, how do we prioritize the 375 things? How do we put the time and effort behind the things that are gonna be most meaningful and impactful to the writer within the time frame that we need to do it? And that's kind of what kicks off the development process. And you know, Sophia is nice enough to say, like, we have the best engineers on earth, they're super trusted, they know what to do, and so you know, we kind of sit down and say, like, okay, well, you're on structure. Like, we're gonna have a crazy difficult thing of having a gravel wheel with impact standards on XE, but at the same time, really light aerodynamic, like road. Like, we haven't done it before. Great, figure it out. No one's done it before.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Yeah, we're gonna do what no one's done before. We're gonna make the the fastest gravel wheel ever. Yeah, unpacking fastest aerodynamics is important, weights important, durability, flat protection. Yeah, how do you put all that together? It's crazy. And I want to talk a little bit about the cast of characters on the Rivolve team and then the process, particularly integration of our wind tunnel. I mean, we have our own wind tunnel. What the heck? Like the level of devotion on the athlete side is matched by the level of devotion on the RD team side. So talk to me about the cast of characters and how did you parse it out? And maybe were there any like interesting sticking points where the team was like, eh, can't be done, or I don't, I think you're smoking rope. Like, we can't make this thing you put on paper, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Yeah, yeah, no, no, that that's generally just our standard process of they laugh at me when I put stuff on paper. Um, but in in general, the coolest thing about our team is like, I don't want to say it's a bunch of yes people, but it's uh like how do we do this as opposed to like ooh, that's not gonna work. And like just that mindset shift is huge. But we talk about cast of characters and kind of the way we work is you know, we have Leo in the wind tunnel and does our CFD.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

And so again, part of that like solution computational fluid dynamics, computer simulation that's able to analyze different shapes and what the drag coefficient will be. So same thing used by NASA, whatever. Like so it's it's in a computer, but it's analyzing shapes, and you guys were analyzing shapes of rim with tire, which is critical, looking at the whole system, right? So you got Leo driving front end, like these shapes look like they'll probably make sense. Got it.

SPEAKER_02 21:59

Yeah. So, I mean, again, you described it really well, but like it's a virtual wind tunnel. It's a wind tunnel in a computer.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

So you don't need to actually make the thing to get an idea of how it'll perform. Yeah. Of course, real world's always going to be a little different, but you're going to be in the ballpark.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Yeah, right. It's like you go from these concepts and you just it's a funnel down. And that's what it helps you do is to funnel all these ideas down and to iterate really quickly. But you kind of touched on something. We always start with like, what's the connection to the ground? It's the tire. What's the tire we want to build down? And again, that that feedback comes straight from our athletes. Like, yeah, we're running 45s and 50s. That's gravel. And that's gravel in kind of the US and Europe, it's not quite there, right? There's different things. Troca now, it's you get in that. But you also have a lot of UCI style gravel races, which are listening for honest, like it's Perry Rubay on steroids, you know, 35s, 40s. And so understanding that, like, here's the breadth of tires we need, but the tire we want to build around is a 45. And so one of the tools we have here is a CT scanner. So we actually go put the right tire on on a rim with the internal width that we want, and we CT scan it so we have the exact tire shape. Because the tires, it's a nuance, it's not a round circle. And so when we kick off the aerodynamics, we kick it off in CFD with the frame, with the moving the mannequin on the frame, with the tire on the rim. And so we're varying rim shape and we're looking at a whole bunch of different parameters on that rim, right? What's the max width? What's the depth? What are some nuance curvatures around it? And we iterate, iterate, iterate. But again, our whole goal is how are we as close to real world as possible? Yeah. So that the answer is as close as possible.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

And that's important. I mean, a lot of times people just look at the different component parts. How deep is a rim? Okay, a rim is important. What's the shape of a spoke? Okay, that's important. But the biggest surface area is the tire. So if you're thinking about aerodynamics, you gotta have the tire on there. Yeah. And then how does that work when there's a rider on the bike? And so you model it, meaning you create a three-dimensional model of this whole thing in the computer and analyze it. Then take us to um to prototypes. Like when do you get a prototype? And then I want to bring it back to Sophia when she experienced the first prototype of the Terra Eero. So how does that go? You distill it down, you go through the computer. How do you end up making it a physical shape? Who on the team engineered that? And then how does that result in a prototype?

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Yeah. So Leo is going back. We I think we went through a couple hundred different shape iterations just on the front. And at the same time, he's working with our design engineer, Philip Summers, on like what's the weight of this? So every shape gets an assent uh assumed weight, right? So he's creating what's the structural results of these shapes. Leo's creating the arrow, and we put it together and run simulations on unbound or different courses of like, is Sophia faster or slower? And then we go circles through, and then we pick, you know, the best four, five, six different shapes. And we we effectively cut them in plastic. We make huge plastic wheels and then we put them in the tunnel again, like that funnel going from concepts through all these different shaped originations to actually cut it, put it in the tunnel so that you can put it on a bike with the moving leg mannequin, and you get even closer real world. From there, we get some nuance, and sometimes the nuance is a quarter of a watt, but that quarter of a watt's really important, and we don't want to lose it. So we'll go through that. We cut them in plastic, we run them through the tunnel, we get the shape that we want, and we're like, great, here we go. And that kicks off for us, the engineer and design engineer Philip, in this case, like, cool, I'm gonna make the cat of the shape, we're gonna kick off tooling, and it really starts his process of like, how am I gonna make this? And with Terra Arrow, having the truncated airfoil really flat on the top is terrible for structure, so it posed a huge problem for him. But you know, we knew it was gonna be substantially faster and give our riders an advantage, and you know, that's the fun part for him. Amazing. We tool it, we get samples, we make sure they're safe to ride through testing, and then yeah, we give them to our best best athletes.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Cool. So once you knew you were onto a couple shapes, you make them in plastic, you put a tire on it, you put it on the mannequin, you put it in the wind tunnel, you get real-world data, more information, confirming which direction to go, then you make the actual wheel. Yep. And the engineer on that side, Philip, is looking at, okay, I know the shape now, but he has all these structural demands he has to solve for, which are not easy. Not easy. So he's got the hard job of figuring that out initially in the computer. Again, what is finite element analysis say it's going to do in terms of structure, et cetera, et cetera, ultimately making a prototype. Which brings us to Sophia. When did you first experience these aero wheels and what was your what was that experience? What was your reaction?

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Yeah, we were racing at Levi's Grand Fondo, so just north of here in Morgan Hill. And we hand came to present Matt and I with the new wheels and you know, had a little PowerPoint, ran us through this was all the testing. This is why it looks this way, because like the shape is very different than anything we had really seen before. And, you know, the the data on it was like, damn, these are really, really fast. We're like, okay, as an athlete, how soon can I race them? You know, and they were like, Yeah, like test them. You know, you guys have a gravel race next weekend, just try them out during testing. And Matt and I go and write them when we come back. We're like, these things are fast. So we're like, can we race them this weekend in California? And the team was like, yes, you can. Just make sure as soon as you finish, those wheels get taken off. Like you can't see them because it's it's so pre-project black. Like it was still, there wasn't a defined product yet. Um, so yeah, we go race them at BWR California. And Matt won BWR California by accelerating. I mean, he's a big guy, he's like 80, we call him our 80 kilo climber, you know. Um, and he accelerated into a false flat downhill. And he said, Yeah, like the wheels, the way that it picked up speed and kept me rolling just helped him get that gap. And then he like soloed for the entire, you know, entire.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Good luck to anyone else. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Thoughts and prayers for everybody. Um But yeah, I remember really that week just testing and we were trying, okay, what tire size can we get away with? Because BWR California, you have a lot of single track, but you also have a lot of road. So we're like, okay, we really want to go Pathfinder. Do we go 45? Like what 40? What are we doing? Um, and one of our very first things were like, you can just hear the speed of the wheels. And that was, you know, an audio feedback that unless you know you're on a really like time trial setup, or maybe in the repeat wheels when it's like really you're going at high speeds, like it's the type of feedback that's really unique and like really cool to hear. And then you're like, yeah, they're gonna hear my wheels are fast. You know, it's like a little mind game too that we kind of play. But yeah, we were just super impressed by it. And um, yeah, we weren't allowed to raise them at traca because we were also, we thought the light wheels could be a really good traca option because there's so much climbing and also the pinch plat protection on these wheels is substantially better than the previous iteration. Um, and then yeah, I even remember like pitching to Brad, I was like, hey, we should have the arrow wheels at Unbound. I was like, the backup of backups set up. I was like, because what if either one of us is in the scenario where like we were on the break and something happened and we need to switch wheels and like we need to close down a 30-second gap. Like that could be the wheel. I was like weapon. I was like, we will get in major trouble. But I was like, but if we win, you know, you ask for forgiveness. And Brad was like, no, I'm just not even gonna bring them because I know you two are gonna try to race them. Um, but yeah, after that, I went to a stage race, a five-day stage race in Oregon. Um, not only to get some points for the Gravel Earth series, but it also provided a great opportunity for me to have five days of back-to-back racing, different scenarios, a little bit more low-key race where I could really test the wheels in kind of the same terrain, but then yeah, go back and forth between the arrow and the light wheel. And then yeah, Matt and G both won on or Matt won on the wheels at Gravel Earth, Nebraska. G was second there. I stuffed myself in the mud, so I DNF'd. Um, but then the coolest thing was this year at uh Big Sugar, where we thought the course was going from the hundred to the 50 because there was massive storms. And, you know, Matt and I went in pre-road. And when we were like really thinking about what's our strategy for tomorrow, how are we gonna win? Matt was like, I want to go and I wanna break away. Like I, two and a half hours, full gas, that's like what I excel at. Um, so I think I'm gonna win solo. Like that is his plan of attack. And for me, I was like, oh, I think for me it's gonna be more again, small selection, maybe a group, and it's gonna come down again to that pitch in the last five minutes of the race, kind of kicks up, and then that's how I won the year before. I have a feeling it's gonna be like that again. So Matt went for the aero wheels, I went for the light ones, and yeah, same race, two completely different strategies, two sets of equipment that were like perfect for how we went and like won the race. So I think that's the other cool part is that yeah, now we have two sets of wheels that we can help us really pick and really fine-tune the strategy that we have on how we want to tackle the race and really where we think we're gonna have that advantage and how we want to attack. So yeah, we were lucky enough to be testing the wheels. I think we did a good job of keeping them as under wraps for as long as we did. Sadly, the internet started to pay attention a bit more near the end, so they kind of leaked a little bit there. But yeah, they're such good wheels that Matt and I are like, we don't want to ride anything else.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Amazing. It doesn't always go that way, by the way. There's lots of examples we could talk about where we try something new and our athletes say that wasn't great. But in this case, involved early, the team did what they did, they create a prototype, you're able to ride it, Matt Beers is able to ride it. You both wanted to race it right away. That's got to be a little tricky, knowing there's something there and it's not yet really ready for prime time. And then I love what you said too. How interesting that in this case, on the same course, because of different riding styles and tactics, Matt wanted to go off the front and essentially just ride away from everybody. Arrow was key. You wanted to use that kicker in the last five minutes or so to to kind of get away. And so climbing and accelerating was was critical for you. That's cool. But you liked them. The bottom line. You liked them. And I gotta ask, can you make the sound of the wheel? I want to hear you make the sound.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Oh gosh, it's just like a like it just just speed. It just sounds like speed, and it just ah, it just it's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

It's true, it's true. It's the sound of speed, and and you feel it too, I think, particularly with the carbon spokes, which we'll get into in a second here.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

I will say one thing from that whole thing. So I remember, yeah, we we we met. I was like, you guys asked, like, hey, can we raise some BWR? It's like, yeah, yeah. Like, just like Sophia said, just don't let them be seen. And then they were both off the front and it was live streamed. So I'm sitting at home on my couch watching this, and it's hours of Matt and Sophia with a camera straight on. I'm like, oh, this is not what we wanted. And yeah, it was it was one of those things where it was really awesome because you know they won and it was great. But the whole time I was like, oh shoot, I made the wrong call. I'm gonna get a phone call from you know our boss, Ben Edwards, who leads, you know, Ryder Promise here. Just like, Chris, what did you do? Like, that was a bad call. So it was slightly stressful for me.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Sure, sure. But pressure makes diamonds. It really does a diamond. Yeah. Um, all right. So, Chris, take us through the development process of the Terra Arrow from there. Now there's a physical wheel, it's being raced in in that's what we call made in racing, right? Like work with the best athletes in the world to help us develop the products that can help them win the biggest races in the world, and then offer that to everybody. Like, that's the philosophy. So now you've got a product, it's being raced, it's being tested. What else is happening in the process?

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Yeah, and this is probably one of the first products in in my career that we've brought in athletes as we did with Sophia and Matt. Like that was revision one. Like, first safe product to ride, the products we were starting to test ride. And so it was actually really great because we started a WhatsApp group and they were giving us tons of feedback, like, hey, I hit this, you know, wheel feels a little stiff, I feel these things. And because they were brought in so early, like, yeah, we were still working through, we're working through the layups, we're looking working through the durabilities, we're working through some of these features on the lightweight wheels, the rim stiffness. We wanted a good riding wheel. And so, like, and they do a race and I get feedback. Like, I remember Matt, like, oh, I hit something so hard, I thought I was done. And you're just like, great, okay, guys, like great pinch flat. Like, hey, can we flatten the top out a little bit more? We got to make sure we maintain this. You know, you initially were like, ah, it feels a little stiff and harsh. Okay, hey, what can we do with the spokes and the rim layup? And so by bringing them in early, it actually affected every revision. You know, normally we wait till the product's a little bit more baked because most athletes, if they get a product that still has some iteration to happen, like they have a hard time like seeing the end. And I think the really cool thing about Matt and Sophia in this case is like they always saw the end. They're like, Yes, this is gonna be great. My feedback is important in the process. Amazing. Uh, and you don't get that with every athlete. But yeah, we went through probably another what seven, eight months of just iteration on the wheels, making sure they're all dialed impacts and all that, a few more iterations, and yeah, you go to production. And I will say the other thing is every one of the other gravel athletes after Sophia Mass started winning, was just like, Hey, uh, I saw them on this. So it was like, okay, you can have this development sample. Uh you know, I'm doing this. So, like, you know, G for sure. She was like, Hey, uh What are these wheels?

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Yeah, what are these wheels?

SPEAKER_02 36:01

When can I get them? And then Annika, same thing. You know, she won her national championship. She was like, Hey, I'm gonna do this really important race. And so that was also really cool that like having Matt and Sophia winning on him, and like, yeah, like that authenticity to the other racers of like, yeah, hey, these are really good, and like we're going out there. Like, those are indicators.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Yeah, it drove me. Like, and other riders are like, Hey, when can I get that? Those are good indicators.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

I never had to sell it. They were like, uh, when can I get it?

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Well, you had all along, it sounds like been answering the request of the riders, and then it was panning out some tuning. Yep, but so that makes sense. It's not like out of nowhere, here's this product, you have to race it. It's actually the other way around. Here's what we're needing now, and then you're answering the call. Yeah, exactly. That's cool. That's cool. Um, hey, I you talked about it a couple times, and I want to get into it. Sophia, you mentioned it as well, and Chris, you did, and that's the idea of flats and durability. The number one time loser or like race ender is flats. There's no rider that likes a flat, whether you've never pinned a number on or that's how you put the money on the table is by racing. Flats are the nemesis of every cyclist, they just have to be, right? And again, looking at the the rim and the tire and how they work together. Talk to us about the strides that you've made with Roval, with that flat stop, flat bead on the top of the rim, and how you work with the tire team here at Specialized again to think of it as a system and what's the result of that, maybe as measured in the lab, forced to impact flat, as well as like what you said. I heard Matt talk about that as well. Like, I just smashed a hole and rode right through, and it was fine. But the guy behind me didn't make it through. Like, that could become a tactic. Ride right into holes. I'm not saying that's clean play, but tell me about that flat stop, whether the strides, how do you go after that? And what are the results?

SPEAKER_02 38:08

Yeah, no, that's a great one. I mean, it really all started in XEO racing, right? World Cup racing. And when we were developing our first control SL wheel and just looking at like what was stopping our riders from winning races, and they were getting pinch flats, right? Like you're running low pressures, the car comes down, hits the rim, and the rim, if it doesn't have a large hook, right? It just it's a point load. All that force and energy is going right there, and you know, yeah, it can slice, creates a little snake bite, ceiling goes out, you start to slow down, lose that. And so on the XEO thing, that was the number one thing keeping early days, keeping our erasers from winning. And so, how do we solve it? Hey, let's just increase the surface area, distributes the force. We're not gonna have pinch flats. Awesome. And that was like just a huge uh uplift for them, right? Like we went through the 23, 24, 25 years, and we just we don't have pinch flats anymore. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

I mean, you can still get a flat. It's possible, but the fact of the matter is prior to this, our XC team was flatting, yeah, like like all cross-country racers do, particularly as the courses have gotten more gnarly with rocky, rock garden features, etc. But then you introduce the feature, lo and behold, we went seasons with no flats in racing. Like that's unheard of.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

For sure. And you know, you start to take that into we did in trail and then talking to Sophia and the team. And I think, you know, I'm always like, hey, what tires are you running? What pressures? And just seeing the trend, right? Like going from 38s to 40s to 42s to 45s, but at the same time, like, yes, we're going larger, but we're also losing reducing pressure, right? Just that grip and cornering, especially at high speeds, is is critical. And so when you do hit something, you're gonna bottom out on the rim. And so during the development process, we made a concerted effort to say, like, on gravel, it's effectively you're seeing the same use cases as you do on XE. And in fact, you don't even have the suspension there. And in most cases, you have a tire that isn't as protective.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

And so speeds are high, speeds are higher. Sometimes it is chunky, sometimes there are holes or big square edge rocks that are there in the course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

And so it's it's actually even almost more difficult than the XEO stuff. And so we made a decision that, like, yep, the beads are gonna be our XEO beads. And they ended up actually being a tad bigger because of just the variety that these guys see. And so for us, it's you know, you can only control what you control. Like if we run through nails or glass, I can't help you, but I can definitely make sure that you can run low pressures, the pressure you want to run to get the feel you want out of your wheel without having to worry about pinch flatting. And hopefully that gives them the opportunity to again feel comfortable going down, knowing that they can hit the rim a few times and keep rolling. Because going into a high-speed corner, just like you're talking about, Matt, that could be the difference of like gapping somebody by a bike length or two because you had better grip and traction. So again, you're like putting the whole picture together, like what's complete speed? It's weight, absolutely, but it's the durability aspects.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Yeah, because it turns out that when you're stopped on the side of the course with a flat tire, you're actually not going that fast.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

Yeah, and and in gravel, right? You guys don't have a follow car.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

And and often you're fixing your own, your own, uh, your own flats, your own technical mechanicals, unless it's a race with you know with a support zone. So that's really interesting. I just want to identify and speak through the feature a little bit because most people are just gonna be listening to this, they're not gonna be able to see. But on the very outside of the rim, the bead of the rim on Roval wheels started in XC and now finding its way through to Terra is what we call flat stop. And as the name implies, that top of the bead is flat, it's not round. Because when you have a round bead, like virtually every other bike wheel, when that meets a sharp rock or something else, it acts like a scissor and just cuts right through your tire and results in one or two, a snake bite, hole in the casing of the tire, and you got a flat. So by changing that design, it's so simple in a way. Looking at it now, it's obvious. Why didn't anyone think of it before? But making that a flatter, what, five millimeter shelf? Yep. Approximately a flat five millimeter flat shelf. Now you can't control the shape of the rock, but the other side of the equation, you you spread out the force, and that really decreases the number of flats because it increases the amount of force required to flat, which brings me to testing. We've talked about testing in the field. There's lots of kinds of lab testing. We don't have time to go into all of it, but I do want to talk about you know the testing that you do around flats, because it's one thing to have a design and say it intuitively that makes sense. But what do you do to actually make to dimensionalize it, to put a number to how much more force is required and what is the force required to pinch flat this as compared to the previous Terra?

SPEAKER_02 43:02

That's a super good question. So, like you said, we have a ton of testing. Um, you know, it all really starts like again, going, putting the rim, the tire on the rim, CT scanning it. And when we CT scan it, we can scan it at a full, and then we can slowly compress it down so we can see how the tire drapes up and over the curvature, right? Because, like to your point, you need to flat the top, we have different radiuses on the side, and what you really want to see is heck, how much contact is that tire getting that distributes the energy? So we'll look at it in a CT scan, just like if you broke your arm, you're looking at detail level, we're able to do that too. And again, just seeing the role and how it's gonna go. Then we can go to some of our impact machines, and we have different styles of strikers. Some that are really pointy, like that kind of pointy rod.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

So maybe talk us through what is, or I'll talk it through real briefly. Yeah, yeah, go for it. So the impact machine is basically the wheel is is in a fixture that's held rigid, and then you have a weight that you that you draw up, you you bring up the weight, and then you allow it to come down. And strike the rim with the tire on it at a set air pressure. Yes. And then that simulates the impact of like hitting a rock at speed. And so you're drop testing it, and you say you have different shapes, and then you try it at different heights, or what are you what are you exploring there? Yeah. What do you find out?

SPEAKER_02 44:21

You you nailed it. So the wheels held in place. Just think of like a fork that's holding it, but an upside-down fork, so it's open. Um, and then yeah, we have a drop rig. And so we know the weight of the rig, we know the height, so you can calculate speed, we can calculate energy and force. And we always have the wheels set up at different pressures. We have it set up in a tubeless configuration because one of the things we're also looking for is what happens when we do flat. Does the tire come off in a rapid deflation event, right? So, like we didn't really talk about it, but we're hooked. We're hooked because it helps give riders the broadest tire choice. It helps retain the tire if you have a rapid deflation event. So when we set it up, just like in CFD we were talking about or arrow, being as realistic as possible, we set the system up as you would as a rider with seal and everything like that. Because a sealant will plug a hole when a tire deflates, it can also become like a lubricant and throw a tire off. And we want to know that so we can adjust or change the internal dimensions or diameters or work with our tire team on adjusting the bead to make sure it stays on. But as you're saying, we take a huge weight, has different angles on it, and we just drop it on there. And we kind of see what happens. And because we've been doing this for years, we have a pretty good idea of where the previous generation wheel is and it has a pinch versus the new one. And we actually have special tires made that remove all the tread because tread can get in the way. So we can really do apples to apples ourselves versus and what was the bottom line?

SPEAKER_01 45:44

How much more force to pinch flat on the new Terra Arrow compared to the Terra CLX to it's about a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

I mean hundred percent in general, you will not pinch flat this.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

You're more likely, I don't want to say, to to to break a rim, but yeah, it takes almost as much force to pinch flat these rims as it does to break it, and that's a lot of force.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Amazing. And Sophia, can you speak to that? Like how have flats in the past interfaced with you know, standing in the way of of your results, and then what has your experience been with the wheels since the team went to this flat stop style?

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Yeah, I think uh was it last year, so 2024 unbound, I had too many flats. Um, and they're super random, just like random cuts. And I will say, like the few times I've also like pinch flatted, a pinch flat is actually a really hard one to seal because it's really hard to put a plug on the bead. So, in a way, it's like, okay, we eliminate the pinch flats and like thread, thread or like sidewall uh cuts are a lot easier to plug and a lot more predictable. But yeah, like I I have hit these tires, like even a big sugar this year, because you're in a big pack, there's dust, you don't see anything. And it's like, I don't mean to smash that rock, but the rock was there, and that is where my wheel went. And um, yeah, even with Matt, we start running the little saram rock shocks makes the little valves that tell you pressure. So we can also keep an eye on that. And yeah, same thing. Matt's like, yeah, sometimes I hit and I'm just like looking at my little hammerhead, like, when am I losing air? When am I losing air? And he's like, it's just crazy that like you're not. Um so that's been a yeah, a really nice thing. And uh again, the lower tire pressure, it's also a cute a huge thing in rider feel and just how much more you can attack the downhills because you don't feel like your tire is gonna slide off and it's gonna like really hook to the ground. So it's been yeah, it's been game changer. And like I said, we've been loving them and um yeah, I can't wait for people to get their hands on them.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

That's great. Yeah, it's cool that it it translates directly, you know, and you experience the benefit when you're out there racing. Yeah. All right. So let's let's round out um the Terra Arrow and just maybe Chris, talk through like world's fastest gravel wheel is what we're communicating. Yep. Just tick through how it is we can actually say that. What are the elements that that make you feel confident in saying that?

SPEAKER_02 48:17

They're aero wheels. So we've done the aerodynamic testing from a 35 tire all the way up to a 2.2. We've done it versus competitors, we do it in the bike with moving leg mannequins. So we know the results and the aerodynamic difference between us and our previous generation and our competitors. So I feel very confident in knowing and saying that, yeah, you have a massive aero benefit.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

And what's the what's the wattage benefit, the lift that a rider would get just from the aerodynamics?

SPEAKER_02 48:44

I mean, depending on the exact tire size, but around four and a half to five watts.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

Five watts. Yep. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

And that's from from our previous generation that was like a a mid-depth, low, lower profile wheel. But even then going to some of the other aero wheels out there, like yeah, you're seeing a watt or two in the different cases. And and as you go wider or a larger tire, the performance goes bigger. So one of the things, again, we optimized for larger tires. So the internals of 27. Hang on, I wanna I want to ask Sophia. Does five watts matter?

SPEAKER_00 49:13

For me, five watts is huge. I mean, it's five watts less I have to worry about.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

So and and in what way does that show up for you? Did do you feel it? Like, do you feel faster with the same effort? Are you able to go a little bit easier and and stay with the pack? Like, is it felt at 200 miles as you're coming in? Where do you feel it most as a racer? The five watts?

SPEAKER_00 49:40

RP, I would say. Like you, when you're in in the bunch, you're like, oh wow, like people are working a little bit harder. And like five watts over a 200-mile race in Kansas, that adds up, you know. So I think you feel it, yeah, the energy conservation that you get to have and just feeling a little bit fresher. And also, you know, it's really in the acceleration part too. Like with the light ones on the on the climbs, like you can just really feel your bike accelerate. And then with the arrow ones, like once you get them up to speed, they just want to keep going faster.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

So you experience it as you're not you're able to be in the group without as much effort as maybe the competitors, or when you're off the front, you're able to go a little bit faster, and then cumulatively over the course of a long race, it's it's adding up. So less fatigued, more fresh, able to finish the race stronger. Cool. Keep going, Chris. So you got the arrow, we got we got our own wind tunnel, so we did pretty well there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You would hope so. Feedback was good. Feedback was good. We talked about the pinch flat protection, 100% more force to pinch flat, substantiated in the lab, experienced in the field. What else?

SPEAKER_02 50:47

I always go back to complete speed, right? And like we're here to make sure our riders win races or our riders out in the field just have a great day. So again, like aerodynamics, aerodynamics across the spectrum. And so our wheels are actually really wide, they're 40 max width external. That gives us the opportunity to have these massive beat hooks, a little over five millimeters, large internal. So, again, like as you go up in tire size, more progressive, you have a larger advantage, but they still work down to a Mondo 35 or a 35mm tire, which is my favorite setup on my Rubay. Uh, just FYI. Got it. But yeah, we're fast, you know, the pinch flat durability. You know, one thing we didn't I didn't really touch on early is when we were starting the project and just knowing the gravel is getting just crazier and more gnarly, we actually went back and redid all of our gravel impact standards. Like, are we durable enough? Do we understand the use case? And so a big part of this project outside of like make it fast, make it light, grid pinch flat, was hey, the durability needs to be there. And so we actually increased all of our testing standards and what we expect out of these wheels to make sure, again, like you're never slower than when you're just sitting there.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

So durability is there, and that's important. You know, gravel isn't one thing, right? I mean, kind of by definition, it's it's mixed surfaces. Yes, there's a racing expression. That actually wasn't the original expression or really even motivation of gravel. It became competitive as humans. We're good at that. We take something that's just fun to do, and then we find out, oh, who's a little fat? And then it turns into its own thing. But still, the beating heart for a lot of riders in gravel is exploration, it's adventure, it's maybe monster cross where you're putting big tires on your cross bike and skying it. I mean, it's incredible what riders are doing now on gravel bikes. So you gotta think about durability, not only for a race application, but for the majority of riders who want out and out performance, but are really riding these bikes in preposterous ways off-road. No, no, totally. Durability is key.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Yeah, we we call it for scene misuse. Like we have a whole section of like, where's all the things a rider could do?

SPEAKER_01 52:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:51

And and you know, it's like, oh yeah, I threw packs and this, and I threw my bike in uh, you know, a tree, and you know, sticks are through through everything. Like we talk about that kind of stuff because you have to, you know, you have to. Like riders are gonna do that. I do that. Um, so yeah. So going back to complete speed, like arrow, weight, durability, just not on pinch lap, but actual like durability of being able to hit a rock, you know, 55 times. And so, like, yeah, I'm totally good. And then ride quality, right? Like, you know, deep carbon wheels like Terra Arrow, like they are harsh. There's a lot of carbon there. And like, how can we fine-tune a little bit to you know remove some of those vibrations? Partnering with Aeris on the Rival, uh, Aero Composite Spoke was huge, and just having that thermoplastic there that actually definitely reduces some of the vibration and that input to the rider. And again, eight, nine, ten, twelve hours, like that's a long time to be on your bike. And anything we can do to remove some of that vibration and impact to the rider and their shoulders, being able to like just keep the fatigue from setting in as much as possible was was definitely part of it.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Totally. I'm glad you talked about the spokes. We mentioned them earlier and we haven't worked our way around to it. But when I ride these wheels, when I ride the the World Cup wheels on the XC side, I mean the weight for sure, you feel the speed, you feel the sound, and also the damped quality that that the spokes provide. It's it's so supple, it's just so pleasant and different. Like you can feel it, but from a weight, from a strength standpoint, like what do these spokes offer? What's unique or different about them? And just shine a little bit of light on the spokes. Because again, we're talking about a system, tire, wheel, which is made up of rim, spoke, nipple, hub, all everything. And you guys think systems, but but just shine a light on that one particular part of the wheel, the the spokes. And how did you come to that? Who did we partner with? What benefits does it offer?

SPEAKER_02 54:47

Yeah, when we were looking at bringing composite spokes into wheels, you know, it was people were doing it, was not totally new. Um, it's definitely in the early stages. We we went and looked at who's out there, who's doing interesting stuff, and we tried a whole bunch of different composite spokes. And we ultimately started, we ultimately partnered with Aeris Composites out of Berkeley, California for a few reasons. Like one, just the material that they were using. We really like that dampening feel, the thermoplastic. Uh, but two, just like their way of thinking and putting the rider first, safety first, um, and just like crazy engineered solutions. And so, you know, we created this this relationship and this product that we're really stoked on where you get a spoke that's saving you, you know, upwards of two grams compared to a steel arrow spoke. Per spoke. Per spoke. How many spokes on the wheel?

SPEAKER_01 55:36

42. What's the total weight savings?

SPEAKER_02 55:38

Yeah. So on the terra arrow, you're gonna save, you know, roughly 84 grams. And then on the tera light weight, where you have more spokes, you're gonna save an extra six grams.

SPEAKER_01 55:47

Rotating mass. I mean, I think it's important for people to think about when you talk about weight of the bike. Of course, when you're going up the hill or when you're accelerating, mass is the enemy of performance. But as soon as you make that rotating mass, it's an exponential difference. You know, 84 grams in a wheel or on a tire is way more advantageous than an 84 difference that's static, like say on the frame, for example. So big weight savings. And what about strength? Are these things up to the task?

SPEAKER_02 56:16

Yeah, no, and that was one of the really cool things about working with Aeris. Like, one, they're substantially stronger, you know, 50% stronger than steel in the bending or the polling, right? And so you have the confidence that, you know, again, you're delivering a better product, it's lighter, it's stronger, and then the damp, dampened feel. But the thing that was really cool, and I I think is a general knock on composite spokes is to get the durability that you need, you tend to have a pretty wide carbon spoke. And you just look at the industry, a lot of people have talked about like carbon spokes are slower than steel. And we actually spend a lot of time on these spokes to like thin them out as much as possible, reduce the end rounds to bring that blade as close to the rim as possible so that you still have the same aerodynamic benefit as steel spokes. So you're not actually giving up in anything in arrow. You're saving weight, you have the durability, and you have the dampened ride quality.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

And they look cool.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

And they look cool.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Let's be honest, aesthetics matter.

SPEAKER_02 57:12

Well, it's funny. We were looking at their bikes the other day. There, there are bikes that you all see when this podcast comes out. They have some cool gold hits, and we're like, oh, we should do gold nipples on the rims.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

Well, I'm glad that you said that, Sophia, because at the end of the day, we're human beings, right? And it's like we can talk about all the rational stuff, how much more force to pinch flat, 84 grams, all that. But at the end of the day, we're driven emotionally, right? If we're in the right headspace and our heart is in it and we're excited about something, it's an entirely different thing. And looking at the bike, looking at the wheels, you talked about the sound, these are all things that light us up as like beings, you know, and then we can really unleash our best performance. And whether you're racing or not, I think we all want, we're all chasing a feeling at the end of the day. Maybe you get that feeling by winning a race, maybe you get that feeling by riding alone at sunrise. But the way it sounds, the way it feels, the way it looks, you know, when you're in bed and it's cold and you go, should I really get up and ride? And you picture your bike in in your mind's eye and you go, Yeah, I'm excited to go ride. It all makes a difference, you know? So I'm glad that you said that. We're we're emotional creatures at the end of the day. Okay, cool. Any last hits? Because we haven't talked about the lightweight one to the basically one kilo CLX3, Terra CLX3. So I want to round out the arrow and then shift gears and talk about the light wheel.

SPEAKER_02 58:39

Yeah, I mean, I think on the arrow we've we've touched on most stuff. I will just say on that, like they look cool. Uh the black decal is actually chrome with black on top. So when you get to the sun, it kind of pops different. That's like my own little personal thing. If you know you know, if you know you know, the hub matches for those of you out there when you get the wheels.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

Chris, you're in the right job. Yeah, no, your enthusiasm just shine through. I always think about man, you got to do something for a living, right? Like we could be making curtain rings. If you're in the audience and you make curtain rings, God bless you. Thank you. Yeah, I'm glad to have them in the world. But you're a lucky man that you get to drive this, you're in the right spot.

SPEAKER_02 59:14

My my wife often tells people and they're like, Oh, what does your husband do? She's like, Oh, he works in the bike industry, and they see my work in a bike shop, which is awesome. Like, I love working in shops. But she's like, No, he puts stickers on bikes. Yeah, actually, I do sometimes, yeah. And I love stickers.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

Yeah, and help people win, you know, big races. Yeah, exactly. But uh so you feel like we've covered everything we need to on the Terra Arrow. Yeah, fastest gravel wheel in the world. You're standing behind it because of the elements that you talked about. We've gone into a lot. We've literally done some spoke sniffing here. So I think we can put that one over to the side. Let's talk about the the third Terra CLX, which is the top tier that we've ever done. The Terra CLX 3, 1,060 grams in a wheel that can handle a full-blown gravel race, and that's 1,060 grams with the valves and the tape. So are we under a kilo if you take the valves and the tape off? Probably not gonna ride.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:11

Yeah, it's right around there. So valves and tape is usually about 15 grams per wheel.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

I knew I was gonna get a long answer when I asked the question.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

Yeah, it is 15 grams. So it's it's really close. Close. Uh, and then, you know, one of the things that I feel passionately about is like when riders get wheels, like they get the weight that we advertise and or below. So one of the ways we do weight is we do a pilot run of 30 wheels, their production, everything's done. We take the 30, we take the averages, min and max, we throw out the lightest weight ones, the couple with the lowest ones, because you know, with just you know, yeah, you don't want to change your curve. Yeah, we take it out, and then we publish kind of the middle of the bell curve. So the general thing is most riders are gonna get what we publish and or below, which you've seen in in all of our wheels, and I always feel great when media call that out. The media says that too. Yeah, it it feels good, and like I feel like we got to be honest and transparent riders.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:00

Yeah, it's integrity. Yeah, cool. Okay, so the world's lightest gravel wheel, production gravel wheel, Terra CLX 3, and you know, we're always focused on what we're up to. You know, other people are doing amazing work, but that's kind of the calling card, right? Lightweight, but it's much more than that, isn't it? I mean, you talked about ride quality, and before you go into it, I wanna I want to come back to you, Sophia, because in that ride back in Chile, that epic one with the hike a bike, it sounds like your feedback that, yes, arrow, yes, please, but also don't forget the like compliant wheel as well. So can you talk a little bit about the role that kind of this arrow in your quiver plays and why you need choice like that?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

Yeah, I think the big reason was back then in the Lifetime Grand Prix series, we had this race called Crusher and the Tusher, which is 69 miles in Beaver, Utah. Um, it's a mountaintop finish, so you don't start and finish at the same place. And over the 69 miles you climb 10,000 feet. Um, and that is very different than the 10,000 feet you climb in Emporia over 200 miles, right? So I was like, it's just like, I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, can I ride the Alpinus wheels? Like I could save a lot of weight, you know, if I go, you know, on such a heavy climbing course. And I'm like, I shouldn't, I I love our wheel and it's good enough, but that is not what specialized does. They're not creating a product that's, oh, this is good enough. It's like, no, let's really if we need to make two wheels, if we need to make two helmets, if we need to make two different types of roadbikes, like we will make that space that needs to be filled, we will fill it with the best product. And yeah, it was it was really cool to have the light ones kind of come to light and just really understand that like the demands from the rider are so different. And like you can't get more opposite than me and Matt Beers. Like we are opposite spectrum of type of riders, type of wattage that we put, um, how we race, how we yeah, just like we're so opposite. And it's just really cool to have, you know, the team really listen to both of our feedbacks and not be like, oh, we're just focused on like this one aspect. Like we're really wanting to help both athletes out. Um, so that's definitely really cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:16

Now that you have these two wheel sets in your quiver, like what difference does that make for you as a racer?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

Well, first it adds a little more thought on okay, which I like having to pick is gonna be kind of the hard part. And that's uh something that Matt and I actually spend a lot of time talking about. Um, but yeah, I'm stoked to have a wheel that when the course is flat and the speeds are high, I can prioritize aerodynamics. When I think I'm gonna win on a acceleration or it's really heavy climbing course, I will pick the, you know, the new CLX3. But then also now I have what I call the the mismatch, the third set of wheels where you can run a aero wheel up front for the aero benefit, but then run the lightweight CLX3 in the rear just to get that acceleration. So it's like, yeah, I have two set of wheels, but I have three combos. So I think that mixed match might be something that we end up racing on a lot. Um, but yeah, it's just super nice to have the options and yeah, never really feel like I'm I don't have the right equipment for the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:16

That's perfect. And it kind of comes full circle to what you were talking about with regards to how gravel's changing. It's changing in all these different ways. There's not one gravel course, there's not one way to race even the same course. So now in this critical area of your of your wheels, you've got the ability to mix and match. Yeah. That's cool. That's really cool. Nice. Hey, let's shift gears and talk about the light wheel. Basically, a one kilogram wheel set, the Terra CLX3, the lightest production gravel wheel in the world, ever been produced. And it's more than that, though, Chris, right? So give us the kind of the highlights of the Terra CLX3.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:58

I mean, yeah, weight's always this one thing you can kind of like talk about, right? It's gonna be right around 10,005, 60 grams with tape and valves ready to roll. And that that's cool. Like you always want to see those numbers, but kind of going back to like what's foundational about what we build into the wheels, the durability is the same, right? Great durability, the pinch flat, the ride quality, the internal widths. And so it's just more than, to me for sure, more than a lightweight wheel. And I think the thing that I'm most proud about, and I definitely want riders to know, is we actually spend a lot of time focusing on the rim shape and the layup and how that drives the torsional stiffness or that rim to be able to flex and move as you're riding. Again, it's a benefit here that we get to work across so many different experiences. But having worked on control roll cup with our XEO athletes and really understanding that actually reducing stiffness in the rim allowed them to push harder through turns, reduce the fatigue on the rider. Like that was a huge unlock there. And then bringing that into gravel and that same mindset of like, okay, how do we not just make a lightweight? Weight wheel because if it's light and harsh, like riders aren't going to ride it. It's not going to feel good. But how do we make a wheel that actually is light but rides phenomenally well? And so the thing I'm most proud about is the fact that, like, yes, it's light, but it actually rides just phenomenally. And like the reduction in torsional stiffness and allowing that rim to flex and move under the tire or with the tire is is the thing that I'm most proud about.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:22

Fantastic. So it's not a one-trick pony. No. Tickling the scale at just a hair over one kilogram, a thousand sixty. Yep. Incredible. But also the durability at that weight and then ride quality and the impact that that has, not only in terms of it feeling good, but also a smooth riding wheel means that you're less fatigued. You got more energy to finish your ride if you're not riding competitively, or to go for the win if you are. So that's that's it's really a well-rounded, a well-rounded wheel. No pun intended. It is round.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:55

Thanks, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:55

But I want to I want to peel back because you talked about the influence of working, you know, like with people like Victor Koretsky and Christopher Blevins and Haley Batten and our cross country team and the the Roval World Cup that you created for them there. Say more about that. Just slow down a little bit. And what did you learn in that project that influenced and made the CLX3 possible?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:23

I mean, a big thing with that project was actually understanding how stiffness affects ride and affects performance. And that project was almost two years, and I forget how many different stiffness prototypes, different stiffness of spokes, rim stiffness, lacing patterns to try to like get down to what allows our riders to go faster and in what situations. And all that learning around is it lateral stiffness, is vertical stiffness, is it wind-up stiffness? Oh, actually, what riders really feel is torsional stiffness. Okay, how much is too much? How much is too little? That whole process and that two and a half years that went into control World Cup allowed us when we went into this wheel to say, like, great, we know what we want to target, which is torsional stiffness. We can really focus there and you know get feedback from our riders around, hey, what did you think of the first wheel? Not telling them we were changing it. Oh, I like this. This felt a little harsh. And then building that into the subsequent prototypes to really kind of fine-tune where we thought the good band was to like where we thought excellent really was. So a huge part of that project was all the other things we talked about, like durability, weight, but how do we fine-tune torsional sniffness on the rim?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:33

That's so interesting. You know, it's like we talked about arrow, and obviously on the road side, that was really the front, you know, the leading edge of aerodynamics and cycling was in road and TT, but you were able to capture the learnings from that from a long period of time and apply it to the Terra Aero wheel. And here you're talking about you also learn from the mountain bike side. And of course, you know, we're riding off-road in in gravel, and many of the athletes, Sylvia, you included, came from mountain, but also from the product development standpoint, the benefit of working with world champions and just the absolute top-tier racers in cross-country influence what you were able to do here.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:17

Yeah, no, 100%. And I think, you know, over time you'll see that kind of go back and forth, right? You have your top XEO athletes and short tracks running gravel tires. You know, what does that mean for the future there? And like what these guys are putting into the sport and learnings we get from that, it just goes back.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:33

Well, it's such an interesting confluence. You know, at Leadville, you're seeing drop bars now, you're seeing more gravel come back into that, into that. It's just a it's a big mashup, right? It's yeah, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:44

Yeah, it's those two kind of circles that flow. And and it was funny, like going back to like early days when Sophia was talking about how she would win races and that acceleration stay in the pack. It also made me think about, and like this is tying stuff together. Like when I was talking to Remco early days around when we're developing Repeat 3, he's like, I just need to create the gap. Once I create the gap, nobody's catching me. I need to create the gap. And it's that acceleration. I need two bike lanes because once I get it, I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:11

Once they're out of my slip stream.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:13

Yeah, okay. And I remember hearing that, and that obviously went into how we thought about repeat and this, you know, deeper front and shallow rear. Like, we need to create the winning moves, like the moment of action. And I remember us talking about it, and you're like, oh yeah, like for me, it's it's that bridge. I gotta get it on the wheel, I gotta create that gap. And I was like, holy crap, it's the same thing, it's the moment of action, and it's like that little nuance. And I think, yeah, when we talk about like the cool thing about what we do is I get to talk to the road side of things, I get to talk to the XC side of things, the gravel side of things, and you start to see these threads that cross over. And like bringing that in is it's been really powerful and like super fun for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:51

We could do a whole pod episode just on that. That's so interesting, you know, different expressions of common themes across different disciplines, but you're able to bring those together from an intuitive sense as a rider, and then also from a technical sense, because a lot of the engineering team is the same and information is shared, you know, really broadly across. That's great. I wanted to ask Sophia, what do you think the future of gravel looks like? Like I was just reflecting on this project, and the first time you experienced it, and then now it's coming to market, but obviously there's a long period of time in that. And so the product team is thinking about the future as racers, you're thinking about, like you talked about how tires have gotten bigger and bigger. Just an open-ended question. What do you think the trajectory of gravel racing is looking forward?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:44

Yeah, I mean, there's so many ways to answer it, but I think the biggest thing is probably the professionalization of the sport. Um, and that's really coming down to these race promoters really putting in the effort to allow us to be professional at it, like allowing feed zones, allowing tech zones. Um, you know, you have courses like BWR Arizona or just the BWR series, like you have tech and feed wherever you want on course. There's no rules, you know, and you have races like Crusher that is like, nope, you get no help. Everything has to be neutral. Um, so I think as the sport is evolving and we keep getting more fans and it keeps growing, they really have to make the professional side of the sport very professional. And I think, yeah, teams are coming in, like the specialized off-road team is, you know, expanded. We have a it's like hitter after hitter after hitter. Like it's kind of crazy to have such a depth of talent of riders. And yeah, I think maybe that privateer model will start to face out a little bit more. Um if you're wanting to win, like you really need a whole team. And so it's like you have uh you're we're starting to blend the aspects of the road with the same thing of the aspects of like the mountain bike. Um, and it's like this give and take little ecosystem that we have that it's like, yeah, you're gonna need to have teammates that are there in support of you, but you also need to know how to like win on your own as well. So yeah, equipment-wise, honestly, I have no idea where that's gonna go. I think it's it keeps evolving. Like, you know, two years ago we were asking for arrow, and then it was like, okay, now we want bigger tires, we want clearance, we want mud tire clearance. Um, so I think it's more on how the sport will be running that will determine kind of its path.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:30

Cool. Thanks for that. Chris, how about you? What do you think is happening in gravel and and what where are your sights set?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:36

I mean, everything Sophia said, you're like, as just a fan of the sport, you're watching it, super cool. Um, yeah, there's already a ton of ideas. Like we were at dinner last night, and yeah, I already wrote down a bunch of things for the next thing we want to look at, but it always just goes back to like what are the problems you're having now? Solving problems. Solving problems, like mud. Solve mud. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:56

We're gonna solve mud. They did away with flats. Mud is is next. Mud is next.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:01

So yeah, I mean, I think that's really it, which is just continuing to figure out what the problems are and like how do we solve them. All right. My last question for you, Sophia.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:09

Why do you ride?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:11

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:14

Aside from the paycheck.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:15

Yeah, no, I yeah, I mean, I I really enjoy the job that I have and I enjoy the lifestyle that he gives me. I think I don't think I really realize how much it does for my mental health, to be honest. Like it's I when I don't have to ride, like my training plan says you're off for a month or you're off for a week. I'm like, this is my favorite time of the year. Uh, but when you can't ride because of injury over sickness, you kind of realize, like, oh wow, like there's just so much stress that I have that I just get to put into the bike and like into pushing the pedals that then just makes my day be a lot more calm and just more relaxed. But why am I a professionalist? I just enjoy the lifestyle. I love sleeping, I love eating healthy, uh, being fit and healthy. Um and yeah, it takes you to some really amazing places.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:01

That's great. It sounds like it helps you feel good physically, mentally, emotionally.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:06

Without a doubt.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:07

Yeah. You know, when we talk to people, it's so common, right? I mean, I think that everyone who rides experiences that. And I like the way you talked about it. Most of the time you have to ride for training. You appreciate the break, but then when you're not able to ride, you notice and you miss it.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:26

How does that show up for you? Like when you're not able to ride, if you're injured or something, like what do you experience? Do you mind sharing?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:32

Yeah, I think it's just a little more tense and you're you're not having the option to not ride. Like it's not like, oh yes, we're resting. It's like, no, I have to like really recover. And, you know, when you get sick and you have a race coming up, a really important race coming up in two weeks, you're like, oh, this is not good for training. It's not the most ideal. So it kind of starts to get into your head a little bit. But yeah, it's also just realizing that you can't just be on the entire time of the year. Like you just either, if you are, you just get to be averagely good the entire year, or you can have highs and lows. And when you're on your highs, you can be a and a phenomenal and a phenomenal athlete and have exceptional uh performances.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:12

Right. And you just feel a little more tense when you can't ride.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:15

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:16

You don't notice it until until you're not able to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:19

I totally relate. I totally relate. It's amazing. You know, the Outride Foundation does research on that. Like what's what's the impact of riding on us as human beings, mentally, emotionally, socially. And I mean, it's a big deal. Riding a bike is a special kind of magic that your body moving through space, balancing, breathing, the rhythmic turn of the pedals, it's single point focus. It's a practice, really, you know, and it impacts us in so many different positive ways. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:56

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:57

Chris, how about you? Why do you ride, brother? Man, uh Chris is a monster, by the way. I should have started with that. Don't run with this human. And unless you're Sophia or like at that level, try not to ride with him. He's a nice person, so he might go easy on you, but absolute monster.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:13

Oh, thank you for that. I appreciate it. Um, I've always been athletic and it's just yeah, very similar to Sophia. Like, if I'm not running or riding or doing something, like I just I feel this weight and strain on me. And so yeah, it's it's how I process, it's how I process life, it's how I process work, you know, and just I get through the day and it gives me it gives me that time to like work through things in my head without just like without the distraction. And like that can be a good thing because like you have time to like really think about it, and then it's a bad thing because you like re-redo stuff a lot. But for me, it's just it's how I'm able to like show up at work or show up for my family is like I go for a runner ride, I am able to work through whatever I had that stress that day, and then like I show up as the person I want to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:59

Better version of yourself, yeah, exactly. I think that's so resonant. You know, I think probably there are a lot of people in the audience going, yeah, me too. I mean, I'm sitting here on this side of the mic saying, Yeah, me too. And I think all the time about the big problems we face as humans, whether it's environmental or social or mental health, physical health, any of these problems that we face, it's so clear how the bike can be a very significant part of the solution to that, you know? And the bonus is unlike a lot of things where the doctor says you have to make these lifestyle changes that people don't want to do, it's like intrinsic motivation. You ride the bike and it's fun. You feel like a kid every time, you know? But then along the way, all these great benefits flow. So we went from all kinds of details about carbon fiber specifically shaped spokes to that kumbaya moment. But it's all true. Really appreciate the time that you each took to share about your perspective on this, the way the wheels were developed. And, you know, all of us sincerely hope that riders in the world get a lot out of them and they can do more of what they love doing on the bike. So, with that, thank you both, and that's a wrap. Be sure to tune in next time. We've got more amazing creators and riders joining the show to talk about how the sport is evolving and how your ride can be better. So, until next time, keep the rubber side down, get out there, ride your bike, have fun, and we'll see you next time.