Epic 9 | Creating the Fastest XC Bike Ever

You know Christopher Blevins from his record-breaking 2025 season, where he finished #1 in UCI XC points, claimed both the XCO and XCC overall titles, and helped the Specialized Factory XC Team sweep the World Cup podium twice aboard Epic 8.

So why change the bike?

Because lead engineer Jason McDonald and the rest of the Specialized Science Club knew they could make it faster.

In this episode, Jason explains how the team started with Epic 8’s world-beating benchmark, then removed what held it back: 206 grams gone, making Epic 9 the lightest full-suspension XC race bike on the planet.

Then he gets into how suspension friction was cut by 11%, how kinematics were optimized, and how it all adds up to unmatched efficiency, capability, and speed per watt.

Christopher shares what modern World Cup XC racing demands at full speed, how Epic 9 feels on course, and why control, confidence, and composure now matter as much as efficiency and weight.

This episode covers:
• Why Specialized built Epic 9 after Epic 8’s dominant season
• What actually slows riders down in modern XC racing
• What “Made In Racing” actually means: turning data, rider feedback, and engineering into speed
• The engineering behind the 1,589 g frame
• Why lighter only matters if the bike stays fast, controlled, and composed
• How Epic 9 blends Epic World Cup crispness with Epic 8 capability
• The role of 11% lower pivot friction in ride feel and traction
• How Wide Open, Magic Middle, and Sprint-On-Lock damping settings work in real racing
• Why efficiency is more than stiffness and weight
• How Body Geometry data shaped Epic 9 fit and handling
• What Christopher feels when the bike disappears and flow takes over

It is a conversation about speed, science, flow, and devotion beyond reason to making the fastest XC bike in the world even faster.

GUESTS: Christopher Blevins and Jason McDonald

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The lightest cross country bike on the planet, 1589 grams for a size medium, still blows my mind. Chris, the first time like you rode the Epic Nine, like do you remember what your response was, like what your feeling was on the bike?

SPEAKER_02 0:16

It looks like a World Cup in some ways, but I would put it in as far as like a between the two. It's like 90% closer to the Epic 8 and 10% some aspects of the World Cup. Immediately, biggest thing I noticed was wow, this climbs incredibly well. And in a way, well in a way that will translate to racing better than any other nuanced detail. I could talk the whole podcast about the nuance of the suspension improvement to isolate the forward momentum carrying kind of capacity. But that's what struck you. Yeah, it was like it was really like wow.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Chris, Jason, couldn't be more stoked to be with you guys and talk about Epic 9. It really seems like just yesterday that we launched Epic Eight. And Chris, coming off of this last year, like a kind of a question is like, man, do we even need a new bike? I mean, you got nine, nine wins between XEC and XCO overall titles in both categories, all on the Epic Eight. So it's like it kind of demonstrated that at least under you, it's a pretty fast bike. Yeah. What was Epic Eight like for you this last year and and you know, how did it contribute to your season?

SPEAKER_02 1:34

I'll just share a story. I bumped into Mike yesterday, Mike Siniard, and he told me, you know, we're always whenever you get happy, and this applies to performance, applies to everything, but it's like this is what specialize does. Whenever you're satisfied with something, you know, like we have a great bike, and you stop, you know, creating. So it's like, yeah, the Epic Eight was, I think objectively, the best XE race bike ever. And yet, like this company, the innovate, you know, or die tagline, the idea of just completely being uncompromisingly looking for how to improve. I mean, that's what you want out of your equipment, that's what you want out of your training. And yeah, now the Epic Nine is uh trying to step into that, you know, big shoes to fill from the eight. I think the eight was the when we spoke uh at the end of my season, I talked about all the different pieces of the eight fitting together into a complete bike and not being able to parse out or separate any different, you know, things about it, but how it functions completely, like with the wheels, you know, the flight attendant, um, down to the tires, everything. I mean, I don't know what more to say beyond like XE racing is a game of margins. You're always looking for these little things that stack up, and it's like kind of represented in all these transition points in a race. Like you you're always you're always on the pedals right when you need to be, putting the dropper down at the last moment, stuff like that. And I just feel like um the eight was the perfect combination, you know, that kind of kept us responsive, uh super capable in the descents. Like that was I think the key differentiator from the eight versus previously the epic moving into bigger suspension uh really allowed I think the progression of modern XE racing to just hit this like booster pad, you know? And the way that we race these courses, if you look at the times, we're just going faster, we're hitting stuff a lot more aggressively and being fine, not worrying about mechanicals. And that's only gonna increase. But yeah, I'll get to the nine and kind of details on that. But I mean the eight was a huge part, like you know, I'm not just saying this because here I am talking, but like it was a critical part of every single one of my race wins. I could probably go back into different key sections of a grass short track race or a super techie Rudy Climb, like Nova Mesto versus Leo Gang short track, and explain aspects of of why the eight I think was you know a huge advantage for us.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

But kind of bottom line, the integrated performance and the way you were able to ride on that. Eight was eight was working pretty well for you. Yeah. So and and yet this and yet this crew. So we got Jason McDonald here. Jason, how many Epics have you been the lead engineer on?

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Um, I've been lead on well, if you could consider what I guess we call it Epic 7, Model Year 21, The Last Brain Bike and Epic Evo, so both of those, and then Epic 8. I helped out a bit on uh some of the early sections of laying out World Cup, um, and then uh Epic 9 as well. So been been a few.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

And and you've contributed to a lot more than that over the years.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

Over the years, yeah. Done done a little bit of all aspects drop bars, kids' bikes, fat bikes, stump jumper, trail, e-bikes, done a little of everything.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

I want to say shout out to my tallest engineer that specialized that is always thinking of us tall guys.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Makes me look sharp, but that's perfect. I mean, so 24 years ago, we launched the first Epic, and there's been eight versions until the nine that's coming out now. And we just heard about how effective the eight was as a tool for Chris and the team to do their job. What were you thinking about when you went, okay, we gotta we gotta step up from that? Like, what was the driver for you and the rest of the team that you worked with on nine?

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Honestly, first response was, oh crap, what are we gonna improve? Because um it it a little bit of that, but we also are our own biggest critics. Um, we look at everything on the bike and we know that bike inside and out, and we can pick out, say, oh wait, here's one little thing that we want to improve on. Uh, one of the key things that we did kind of pick out is we said there's something about Epic Eight where we know that we could improve uh kind of that small bump compliance kind of off the top feel. And I think even when you got here today, you even mentioned that you're like you were riding a bike, the suspension wasn't quite dialed yet on the Epic 9 on the one that you were riding, but you were like, Yeah, I still picked out that little detail of like what you guys were really tuning into that bike. And that's to me, that's telling me that like we did our job, we did our homework, and to hear that coming from Chris and the team is really, really cool. So that's just one example of many little details on the bike that we put together. I mean, we've been working together for pretty much on all the epics I've done, been you know, getting your feedback, working with you and the team and everything, and uh definitely taking all of that feedback in and processing it and figuring out how to make these guys faster.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

That's awesome. We're gonna dive into all the nitty-gritty, but it sounds like you looked at very similar to what Chris was saying about racing is incremental, looking at all those areas that you saw an opportunity to enhance, whether it's shaving a few grams here to get to the lightest cross-country bike on the planet, 1,589 grams for a size medium, still blows my mind, down to looking at the suspension performance, which already was at a high bar in terms of capability, efficiency, seeing how you can make that more plush while simultaneously more efficient. Like that's a that's a tall order. And then also you took the Epic World Cup and the Epic Eight and kind of fused them in a way, like bringing some of the snappiness of World Cup. Obviously, the layout has a similar look, but then all the capability that you had in eight. So pretty amazing fusion, and um we'll get into we'll get into the details. Chris, the first time like you rode the Epic 9, like what was do you remember what your response was, like what your feeling was on the bike?

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Well, as you said, I mean it it looks like a World Cup in some ways, but I would put it in as far as like a between the two, it's like 90% closer to the Epic Eight and 10% some aspects of the World Cup. I think what was trying to be solved and what was with the climbing directness and kind of momentum carrying of the World Cup was integrated, you know, without compromising any of the kind of capability of the nine. Um there was still such a noticeable difference on the top, you know, bump compliance on the suspension. It like seems like such a little thing to talk about, like, oh, it's just the first what 20, 30, 40 mils of the stroke. But that's I in a lot of ways the most important as far as going fast and carrying momentum. So just supple all over all the stutter stuff off the street. It was like and typically when you feel it immediately. Well, typically when you get that feeling, you're like, ah man, I'm just bogged down. Sluggish, yeah. So you gotta you gotta pick between stiffness and like feeling like your power is going directly into the pedals for to create forward momentum versus you know comfort and squishiness, right? But I think the way some of the kinematics, how they isolated their shock, to give you that top end suppleness, but like not feel like you're just kind of squished for lack of a better word, into the you know, bottom bracket and not over the top of the pedals. So immediately the biggest thing I noticed was wow, this climbs incredibly well, and in a way well in a way that will translate to racing better than any other nuance detail. Like that was the biggest difference in my mind, and I can't wait to race it because I'm getting ahead of myself, but like yeah, it's a it's a critical feature. Um, again, I I could talk the whole podcast about the nuance of the suspension improvement to isolate the forward momentum carrying kind of capacity. But that's what struck you. Yeah, it was like it was really like wow, it just wants to kick yourself up. And they throw in all these random little uphill rock gardens these days in the World Cups that are just momentum killers, and I can imagine the nine being so good to just kind of kick you up, and you don't have to disrupt your pedal stroke um and be bogged down.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

So I did intervals on it this morning, and uh by the way, for the for the team, Chris is a champ, but not only on the on the race course, but full day of training, other things going on today. It's coming up on six o'clock. I don't know how long you've been awake, but you're here with us. I just want to give you a shout out and thank you.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Thank you for the you know, Ben got me a burrito, so the key to my heart, everyone.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Yoni, Yoni bought that for you. Oh, you see? Yeah, Yoni bought that. Okay, thank you, Yoni. I'll text you. We're a family, man. Yeah, I was like, I know he's hungry. Yeah, the day is long. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Well, no, I'm happy to chat. I mean, you know, it's natural to talk about like this. Was my morning, you know, my day was full of the epic night. Yeah, I was getting feedback while I was doing intervals this morning.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

So yeah, yeah. Let's go into let's go into the the suspension. You know, it plays into a couple of the key attributes of the bike, the efficiency, which you talked about, but also the capability. And it sounds like marketing to say it's more supple and it's more efficient. It's like, how can that be? So, as the smart guy at the table, Jason, how do you two smart guys? I'm not counting myself on that number. How how do you pull that off? How did you in the team pull that off?

SPEAKER_03 11:41

So how we so what we're what you're talking about here, and what I'm hearing from you, Chris, is you're talking about the yeah, the suppleness and something just that sensitivity. So we did reduce um a lot of the increase in suppleness that we're feeling is actually reduction in friction at the shock. So just the amount of friction that the frame puts in on the shock um is reduced by about 11%, uh, which is pretty, pretty substantial. They like we're able to feel a lot of that.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

And you achieved that by going cartridge bearings at every pivot point?

SPEAKER_03 12:13

Um, yeah, just just some things in the way that we kind of brought in the packaging of going with the swing link and uh the way that we've packaged it all up inside the frame and be able to um also just in the shaping and the carbon layup and the frame and just lots of again, it's all the little details that we put together. And I mean, that's really kind of the secret sauce on the entire project. I mean, I'll get into the kinematics here in a second more, but just the secret sauce is really the, you know, epic nine. Like you said, nine generations. Um, you know, we've got stuff where we've learned from, you know, trail demo, uh, even on the roadside, talking, you know, tarmac and stuff. Uh, we taught them a thing or two as well. Um, but just how to be light and how to basically just truly optimize everything that we're working on. So on the kinematic side, the friction is a huge part of it. But then also looking at um the pedaling, uh, some of the things we did in the leverage curve in order to give us a little more damping off the top. Um, and so we freed things up so that we're not as harsh. But then also because of that, we can afford to add a little bit more damping in and lower that leverage rate initially off the top a little bit. So that's some of what Chris is talking about, of feeling like he can pedal, like stay seated and pedal and stay high in the stroke. That's another thing that we've done talking. We're working with the body geometry team. We did a whole study a couple of years back when we actually worked on uh Epic World Cup was looking at keeping the back end up and uh keeping you in a kind of a steeper seat tube effective seat tube angle position. Um, you're gonna be a lot more efficient that way.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Biomechanical efficiency. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Yeah. So some of the studies that we've done with that, and so that's one of our focuses with that. We talked about it when we launched Epic 8 a bit of compared to the previous Epic Evo. We increased anti-squat and did some other things there. And so a lot of what we learned, again, it's because it's the ninth generation of this. We're just taking and building off of everything we've learned time and time again. And it's not just that, but it's also the team around us. A lot of the people that worked on this project from start to finish are different, doing different parts. This is their second, third, fourth of um, you know, either epic or major project that we've done here.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

So the specialized science club is a real thing, like the group of people who have been working together as a team, really pulling together to look at it everything incrementally. And so dropping the friction by 11% through the way you develop the swing link and the bearings and the alignment through all the carbon, amazing. Tuning the leverage rate so it's supple off the top, but then like at the sag point and on, giving you a little more platform, it sounds like. And then also thinking about the biomechanical efficiency. So riders like Chris are in the right position over the pedals while they're riding. They're not in the backseat or choppered out.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

Something that we focus on with this bike is how do we make it feel firmer vertically, which is actually going to help overall in the power transfer and the perception of power transfer, which perception is reality in the case of power transfer.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Very cool.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

You know, when Epic Eight came out, uh from a capability standpoint, it was really pretty far ahead of where we'd been and other bikes had been, which kind of came from feedback you'd provided and other riders had provided and riders on the team had felt, and just seeing what was happening on World Cup courses with Rock Gardens and technical sections, etc. How critical is like the capability of the bike when you're going out there for doing what you do, going top speed. And in what ways, obviously, and maybe not obviously, does capability play into the way you race a course?

SPEAKER_02 15:55

We're on such razor's edge where capability has to not compromise like responsiveness. And I find some of the capabilities that you need with XE racing are not what you do if you were just out for a trail rip. Like you wouldn't bomb a flat corner and want to hit your suspension to kind of dive, you know, the front wheel and like hit it. But in an XC race, and I mean like a flat, you know, 180 degrees, you know, on a dirt fire road, that like you're never gonna be on a fun trail ride, being like, now's the time to push it. In a race, sometimes those are the moments that you can make a mistake that you know you slip out and you lose 15 seconds or something, or um you gain a little advantage. So I think capability has to be applied towards those like bomber descents, along with the techie agile moments and the like awkward XC stuff. I feel like this bike for a rider like me, I think I dance around a lot on the bike, like I'm kind of moving a lot, and I think the nine feels super agile on the descents, and then it still has that like just bare capability where you can send something that five years ago you'd never be able to send on an XE bike, and like the bottom out damper and you know, support basically at the bottom where you bottom out, you want to bottom out sometimes a lot often on an XE race when you're really pushing it, but it doesn't feel like you bottom out. It feels like if you're really paying attention, like okay, maybe I noticed a little like boom, but it's not gonna you know wiggle you out out of it. So um I think that the agileness of this, and especially for climbing capability again to be kind of feel like you're on the pedals, it's connected, it's like everything's going towards forward momentum, and therefore you don't you can like move quickly. I love that. Um but yeah, there's no like there's no compromise on the descent, and if I were to hit a drop to flat on the eight and the nine, I would pick the nine. I wouldn't say that I think that the improvements for the nine that I really notice are in those micro moments that add up to racing. Capabilities virtually the same, but it's the race like moments that are critically improved, I'd say. And like I can anticipate those now, but I won't really know it's on properly racing it. Sure, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

What I'm what I'm hearing and tell me if it's right. It felt like the first time you were saying it, like the example of in a race, there might be a hairpin on the grass or a dirt thing. The capability comes into play there to kind of give you an insurance policy to make that where you might otherwise slip out. Yeah, absolutely. And then on the other one, like you're still agile, like particularly with your style, able to move around like you want, but have the capability. Yeah. And then the other thing was like you're able to send it online that you wouldn't even considered before. Is that right? Like you you're seeing the course differently because of what the bike has opened up.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Yeah, and that's kind of the three levels of stuff that you see on an XC course. And of course, things the whole package of the bike matters, like your you know, your tire pressure, and I really think traction in those awkward moments where it's there's the bike's predictable, like the front wheel dives when the suspension's open and you're able to put weight on it and kind of corner on these awkward moments. I feel like after two rides on the Epic 9, I was at home on it. You know, there wasn't a transition. Fall like home right away. Yeah. And I think that's an a testament to the improvement still fitting in like a bigger picture of not trying to do too much, I guess what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Got it, got it, got it. And and again, didn't feel like there were big trade-offs.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Yeah, amazing. And I mean, that's a hard line to walk. And again, I think that's why these micro details are so noticeable.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Absolutely. And what about like the capability is one way to express it, right? These are all just words kind of pointing, hopefully, to something that's that's true. But in watching, particularly last season when you were racing, it looked like there were moments where you were going through some technical sections, but actually quite calm. Yeah. Whereas your competition, it looked like they were pinballing off everything. Like, are those little moments for your heart rate to drop and for you to kind of catch a little reprieve when the competition is like death grip, and like, am I gonna clean this section?

SPEAKER_02 20:27

I was thinking about this today when I was doing an interval and then like hopped on a trail right away. When you descend in a race, um, I'll get really specific here, but hopefully it's helpful. Like that's perfect. You know, I lock my legs out a lot more because you don't want to be in like a shallow squat. Um muscle tension. Yeah, like you want to be fully, fully relaxed. And it's not the most like if you're at a I don't know, skills clinic and they tell you to take a good downhill position, like this this is not it's not the ready position. No, no, it's it's a recovery position. That's that's how you that's how you win in an XE race is recover on the downhills, but don't lose any time. And I think that the top end suppleness, like when my legs are locked. Sometimes I remember in Alpstat, my first World Cup in 2021 as an elite, I raced a hard tail with a high post. I was like maybe one of the last people to do that. And I would be going down some descents, and like I watched a video, and the back wheels just like just hitting these bumps and skipping all over the place. And I think that is not those aren't that's a different kind of capability, these aren't big hits. But with the nine and my legs are locked and I'm trying to recover on a descent, it's soaking it up in a way where I don't get that subtle vibration that makes me have to shift out of recovery mode into oh shit mode or oh wow mode.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Right. When you think about capability, Jason, and you were working with the team. On building that in, aside from what we've talked about already, as a like analytical engineer, what are the pieces to the puzzle that you're putting together to think about how do we deliver that for a writer like Chris or or Victor or Haley or anyone on the team? Like, what are the pieces when you think about the word capability, what does that translate to in terms of development?

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Well, immediately when you started asking this question, my my response was going to be if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Yeah. Talking about Epic Eight and you know, in the beginning here. And that was kind of one of our main things. It was like, don't make it, don't it? We know it's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

And I'm not necessarily saying eight to nine, but just general, yeah. How do you bake that in? You know?

SPEAKER_03 22:44

So that's something where it's, you know, if someone says, Oh, I love the capability, it's like, tell me more.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

So you're listening, you're listening for those little flags of ways that someone like Chris is riding that you or I wouldn't ride like, and you go, Oh, yeah, he's locking on his legs to save his muscles, but what does that do in the system and how can we learn and improve from that?

SPEAKER_03 23:05

Exactly. Well, and then it's like, okay, well, this is we need something that's going to, you know, suck up all the little vibrations and not jar him jar a rider offline if we if we're tuning for that. Or um, you know, maybe it's something where it's like, I remember years ago when we were working on Epic 21 Epic, like Epic 7, we made a mule and we put an adjustable headset cup on it. And uh Brian Gordon, the product manager, went all the way to the minimum or the slackest head tube angle, and we tried like a 65 degree head tube angle, and he was like, I just gotta try it. Came back from that ride and he was like, that didn't suck. Um, and um, that was when we, I think, shaved like two degrees off the head tube angle that year, and it was, you know, we we gotta go try things. Um, and so it's really it's about you know, yes, it's good in in capability, but then also making sure that any changes we make don't aren't detrimental to other aspects of the race, you know, on the climbing or the you know, switchbacks or anything like that. So it's really it's breaking it down and then analyzing, like if you know, you come back to me and say, hey, you know, there's this one corner uh, you know, Nova Mesto or whatever where I was sliding out or this was happening, it's we're looking at footage. We're if if we're not there or something, and we're like, okay, what is happening in that moment? And um analyzing and trying to figure that out and say, and sometimes it turns into, you know, hey, you gotta it's something that you're doing. Other times it's like, hey, we can do XYZ and make this bike better. So it's just breaking it all down to the tiniest little details.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think capability is like being able to ride through stuff that you couldn't ride through before, or riding the same stuff, but having a different, a different feeling as a rider in the body, so that kind of cognitive load starts to drop away and you're like more in the moment, which I want to I want to go to you on that because I know like still point and like dropping in to that special place, like where full performance happens. What's the place of your bike and your equipment in being able to get to that place? Yeah, and what is that? Like, talk a little bit about what that is for you.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

So much work stacked on top of itself, you know, a decade, like with specialized kind of riding different bikes that have evolved to this point, but then obviously more it's two decades now of trying of training again old, um, of training and whatever else, like all the the micro blocks that build up, but then at a certain point you have to let all that go and like not try to build anything up, you kind of drop into the feeling, if that makes sense. So it's like the bike becomes just an extension of what your naturally happens in a way, and again, it's like a lot of work goes into letting go of the work, and I've I think there's there's a quote like you don't you don't rise to the occasion, you drop to the level of your training or something. This kind of training is to train integration, as you put it, with bike, body, course, and the all the various changing circumstances of a race. But I think from a bike level, like I'm not much of a data-driven person with like my bike and I'm a horrible mechanic, like awful. Some people listen to this may may know, but like I think I'm really perceptive on different changes in my bike, and I've learned really through the process of working with engineers like how to how to vocalize that and to connect the dots between um the more you know data-driven, number-driven side of things. Um but yeah, like you know, it's all of the subtle changes in the feeling of being connected to the bike. So, like when you double lock up your tires into a corner and you're sliding, but you know that you're gonna catch it, that's something you can't think about. It just happens. And to describe the feeling of kind of feeling at home with the bike, that's like when your fit is perfect, you know, you got the right saddle for you. Uh, you mentioned body geometry, which I do think is a really critical part of us as racers. Like, we spend a lot of time with the bike fitters and fine-tuning that represents this connection from body to bike and specialize putting attention on that specific thing. Paints the whole picture, contact, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

I spend a lot of time with them too, talking about your fit and what you guys are doing and how to just make sure that you and all athletes can fit on the bikes properly. So, yeah, yeah, very critical piece that we have. Great, great job bringing that up.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Totally. I'm kind of like, I think with the one interesting point is I'm I'm tall, and I think you and Jack have told me perhaps try the XL. Um, Jack has told me that. But with the with the nine, for me, I think the sizing it's like pretty perfect.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

We made some adjustments that I we even talked about. We're like, oh, this is gonna be perfect for Chris.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

Appreciate it. My tall guy. Nice.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

So for CMIT. So when the when the fit's right, when it when you feel at home on the bike, then like that the double wheel sliding or those moments where you can just become the moment, just occur.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Yeah, you don't think of the micro details of there is a bike and here is the things that are happening. You just think of this overarching field of experience, so to put it, you know, that's just simple. And I think that's what you have to get into to win a race. Like that's what all of the top guys and girls are feeling when like in their various ways, but the game is about being more connected and instantaneous with these decisions that you have to make on your bike, and I think the subtlety, like I mentioned about recovery on descents, is something that's overlooked. Like, I talk about that all the time. Like, what is descending in cross-country racing? It is recovery, and that's at least half the equation. But I think this conversation is just about integration between bike and body, and you know, to bring it back to the to the nine, it's like all the work stacks up to that moment we have to let go and yeah, just ride, just let the experience ride itself, kinda.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you introduced me to Patrick Sweeney and one of the books that he recommended to me, Inner Game of Tennis, and I found it really profound because you know, it's like two levels of who we can be, right? One is the one where we're learning it and we're doing something, we're thinking about doing it, and the other one is where we let go of that cognitive function and we allow exactly as you said, the years and decades of working towards mastery to happen. Yeah, and and we're kind of in that moment that people often say flow state. Yeah, you know, totally. And I love asking people like people who are watching the podcast. I I asked Loick about it, I asked Finn about it, I've asked everyone about it. And it's like, do you know what it is? And everyone says, Yeah, I know flow state. And I think it's a big driver, you know, it's a big when we taste that and being really in the moment, it's super powerful. Yeah, and then I always follow up with like, can you consistently or reliably drop into it? Most people say no. Yeah, and and they and most people say it finds me sometimes, or I can get there sometimes, but I don't know what the rhyme or reason is.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

I I think there's a lot of pieces to it, totally, but certainly if the equipment isn't working right, your brain can't shut off. Yeah, so that's like a that's like table stakes. If you're gonna drop into flow, you gotta be able to trust your machine and it's gotta work in the way you expect it to.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

Yeah, I think trust is a good word. It's like finding deeper levels, deeper and deeper levels of trust in yourself, in your cap in your capacity, relaxation, and just ease within like deeper and deeper levels of uh difficulty and like challenge. You know what I mean? So it's a hundred percent. It's uh it's finding like a way through difficulty by going straight into it. And I think that trust piece is pretty critical because you have to trust your bike, and I'm saying this is an XC guy guy, but like Loik and Finn, like they have to be so connected to trust as a key element, and I think it that ties back towards like the why and the the feeling of of really like what building the best bike comes down to. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

I love that. How consistently do you drop into that flow state? Every day, just I mean, it's uh I'm in it right now. Yeah, right. I live there, they call me the Buddha, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Um coming into I mean, like flow for I think there's different kinds of you know, varieties, so to speak, right? Like different moments where a fun trail ride, like sometimes the here there's just hero dirt and everything's perfect, and it's you know, you're not thinking at all. And then in the race moments, I think I found it a lot better this past year of really like again training, like you train to drop in to the moment just as it is. And one thing I found on the bike is the points of contact, as I mentioned, like you know, you have you always have reference points to come back to that can bring you back to the present moment. I think in a lot of ways, like when the harder it gets, the more like high stakes it is. And one micro example is when you slip in a corner and then you're off your line and you're going down some wet routes and you have to catch yourself, like there's no option other than to be right in that moment. So, like when mistakes happen, that's flow. So it's like how to reproduce it again and again has been, I think, the greatest defining factor of my question of how to generate success. And uh that's just a journey, but I'm that's where I'm kind of placing my attention to try to be as an athlete. But at the end of the day, like you're not your athlete, you're not a bike racer without your bike, right? So it comes down to the the whole picture of integration. But I'm excited to race because that's where the stakes are high enough to be like, yes, again, I got another fresh opportunity to try to be it the best I can. And you always start from ground zero, you know. I won't be Christopher Blevins from 2025 when I line up in 2026. It's like new moment, fresh moment all the time, which is what I love about it, truly. Yeah. Powerful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

We could go deep on that. Anyone who knows me knows I'd love to talk about that for a long time. But let's get back to things that are a little bit more pragmatic. I want to talk about weight. You know, the old school kind of old school cross country would be light as possible, stiff as a board, right? Like make it lighter, make it stiffer. You're talking about hardtail back in 21 with a with a high post in it, you know, and it's like such a different style of riding. And it's not just that, as we've talked about, it's an integrated package with you know, suspension performance being key for all these reasons that we've talked about. And still, mass is the enemy of performance. You know, not at not at the expense of a flimsy bike that's sketchy to ride or something that busts. That's not cool. It's gotta work, but still, weight is important. You gotta accelerate every gram you carry. That's inertia. You gotta climb it up the mountain against the force of gravity. Like lightweight matters. And so 1,000, I'm gonna say it again, 1,589 grams. When you pick up this frame set, it's absolutely bonkers and complete bike weight in our super light, I think 18.6 pounds. Yeah, something like that. I think that that's right. In the in the in 18 with axles, with all the hardware, with everything. I mean, mind blowing. That's like most gravel bikes weigh more than that. It's absurd. I know you're gonna say I did it here and I did it there. So I'm not gonna say how did you do it? I'm not gonna say I did it. The team. You picked up as a team, you picked up a few grams here, a few grams there. But I want you to to go into a couple of key areas that just demonstrate the level of detail that you went into because you did that everywhere. So, what are one or two areas that you would really highlight to say, here's how we were able to make the bike almost a 160 grams lighter than the nearest competitor?

SPEAKER_03 35:35

Yeah, something in a frame. Definitely, I would say I'll start by saying that our mantra with weight is put the weight where it counts, and meaning we, you know, everything's gonna weigh something, right? And so it's how do we take the weight and make it do the most that we can? So we were not willing to compromise, as we talked about, capability, we are not willing to compromise um, you know, climbing performance, stiffness, anything there. So by no means did we make some noodly, you know, flimsy frame. But in all you know, intents and purposes, this is same like stiffness and everything as Epic Eight, if not better.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Yeah, the weight is like it's like money in your bank account. You only got so much that you want to spend, but you want to spend it in the right ways.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

Exactly, exactly. So um looking at it, one of the you know, one area that we took, I mean, like I said, we've done this ninth generation in the modern era of looking at, you know, really, we started really starting to shed some weight when we got to what I call Epic Six. Uh, I think we launched that in like 2018 or so. Um, and then we've proceeded to shed more and more weight um since then. Um, and so looking back, uh, we cut up frames um and looked at, hey, you know what, this one was lighter in the head tube, this one was lighter in the bottom bracket, this one was lighter in the C tube. And here, let's Mr. Potato head this together and use this construction method here, this design here, um, while working with our industrial designer to make it look as good as possible, too. Um, but looking for very specific details, I would highlight the C tube. Um, we did something that was very unique. We wanted to look at how do we make the C tube lighter? Historically, your ID uh internal diameter is defined by your C post, right? So we got a 30.9 C tube on this. The only way to make the wall thinner to make it lighter is you got to shrink the outside. And so we're like, well, why don't we do that? So we um not only did we just shrink the diameter all the way around, but we tailored it so that the back is thicker where you need it for compressive strength. So carbon does really well in tension, not as good in compression. So on the back side, we um made it a little thicker than around the front. And then we also scaled that by size. So, you know, when we start talking about smaller, uh the small size, right? So when we're talking about frame sizes that like Cena or Laura, although I think she might be in the medium now, um, that Cena is riding, that's optimized for her. But then when we start talking about medium, we get into large uh or XL for myself. We're talking about a little thicker. So um everything is optimized for each size, but then also we uh shave some weight. I think on the medium and the large, we saved something like 17 grams just in the seat tube in that area. Um, so that's just one example. Another one would be um some of the shrink wrapping we did around the main pivot, our main pivoting structure.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Shrink wrapping, man. We're talking about leftovers here.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

Yeah, no, just taking the sh taking the shape of the frame. Uh if you look at epic eight, it's kind of bigger and more bulbous around the main pivot. Um, and we shrunk that. And in doing so, we actually found a way where we could on Epic Eight, we used to bond in a carbon tube for the main pivot, and we left that out on this one. Um, we were able to, because of the geometry of the frame and the shaping, we were able to put carbon where we needed it to get the compressive strength to be able to support us, like actually tightening bolts down on it. And uh, I think that was like another 10 or 15 grams that we're able to shape.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

So even just in that one section of the seat tube plus the main pivot, you're you're basically coming up to 30 grams. So you add those those types of changes throughout the entire chassis.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

Hardware, uh, the down tube, uh, talking about the down tube tube for a second.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

You know, on the Epic 9, no SWAT in the down tube, no SWAT in the down tube. Kind of a clear nod to this is a pure 100% race machine. Like when you're on, Chris, when you're in a World Cup, you're not going into your down tube to pull out a tube and fix your flat on this on the side. So it's like when that's the focus, like how much did that save? Do you know when we went to the smaller down tube without this without the SWAT?

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Yeah. So the down tube, um, it is smaller, it is, which is purely four SWAT, but again, it's scaled and size by size. Um, I think on the medium we're around 120 grams lighter, but that includes the weight of the SWAT door, which um for you know you guys on the World Cup circuit, we actually made my brother Ryan actually made uh some carbon doors for you that were like half the weight of a standard door, because exactly that you don't need SWAT on a on a race day. Um maybe for like Cape Epic or something, then you would want it, but on a in a XCO race, no. Um so that was definitely take this and make it a very pointed race-specific machine. Again, blending that World Cup and Epic 8 all into one.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Totally. And just you know, for the listeners, there is the swap box that comes with the new Epic 9 that mounts to the bottom of the water bottle cage. So if you want to rock your tube and a CO2 in there, you can do that. Of course.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

What we call a no penalty feature. Yeah, meaning if you don't want it, you take it off.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

It also kind of looks sick at times, you know. So the box.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

I think it looks pretty I think it looks pretty right. Yeah, the newer box is smaller, sleeker, uh fits and it has a specific spot to hold a tire plug and works with our new TPU tubes. So definitely a little smaller and sleeker than what we had previously.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

I might need to just cut my burrito up like in the eight, I could stick it in the frame better, but you keep getting me burritos, I'll just cut them in half and put it in the box instead.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

So hey, on you know, on the flight attendant bikes, RockShox has done such an amazing job with making the system work. Like, what does that do for you, Chris? Like when you're riding and racing, like having that system working, like talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Yeah. Um well, I mean, you just don't think as much. And yeah, you just ride. And then I also think, well, I also think that the the ease with the two paddle shifter, like when you know you're gonna sprint and you just click it, um it's way better than a big mechanical lever that you have to push. So like 90% of the time it locks out before I tell it to, but the 10% of the time that you just press it, like I would still love the flight attendant if all you had to do was just press it. But again, especially on you know, longer rides or marathon races, like I, you know, I've done some marathon races with the flight attendant, and that's where there's a huge advantage. Like my wrist or my fingers used to get sore, depending on yeah, twist lock or the press. I remember cramping in Cape Epic once because I was like doing that so many times and it was really hot, and then like my my thumb started cramping, and you don't do that with the flight attendant. So to put it simply, you think less and and you just go.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Yeah, yeah, and it's kind of one less thing, one less load on the old noggin to let you stay more kind of in this moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing, amazing work that they've done on the bikes, on on the bikes with flight attendant, but also without, you know, the the dynamic trio, kind of that the magic middle setting is awesome. So even if you don't have flight attendant, you can put it in the middle setting, and you've got a great pedal platform that'll just then blow away when you get the the impact that would be suitable for a bigger um a bigger impact. You got lockout on the other side and you got wide open as well. So even if you don't have the flight attendant, you're still you're still dialing.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

Yeah, same magic middle from Epic Eight, but as we were talking about, I think with the pedaling performance and the more supple off the top, it all almost like expands the range that you can ride that magic middle in and make it even like a little more useful. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

It's a great way. Yeah. So um, I'm trying to think when the when the Revolve control World Cup wheels came out, was that a a year, a little over a year ago? Was this last season, the first season? They spent all last season one, yeah, yeah. One kilo mountain bike wheel set. I mean, it's preposterous. To think about carbon spokes, amazing rim, the flat stop. So it's like almost impossible to pinch flat the thing. But what difference does having a light wheel set like that make for you, Chris?

SPEAKER_02 44:15

I know you told me not to knock on the wood during the podcast, but I'm gonna knock on the wood when I say that I don't say you've been blessed.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

You've been blessed in a certain department that starts with F, so we're not gonna say the word. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Yes, sir. Um it's gone well for me there. And I um would like to nod to the the, you know, that's a good word for capability.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

It's a good time to use that word. Um because yeah, it's used to the bike's certainly more capable when it has, you know, because you can just send it into the rock gardens. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Are there times where you're pinging off rocks and like in the past you would have been like totally that would have put me to the pit. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Yeah, I think now, like when I avoid that pinging, it's more for fluidity and just avoiding you know, harsh impacts for your body versus the bike. Like, I trust the bike. Um, I think that the stiffness of the wheel set, and we got in so deep with the we revolve team talking about torsional stiffness and rotational and like pickup and all of this stuff. And then I think some of what we said from our feeling would maybe contrast what they found in the lab intuitively. But then when you think more about it, like you find that okay, it's maybe because the the rotational, you know, uh curve happens quicker, so you feel stiffer, but it's like very dynamic, very dynamic, and I would say that the the benefit of having an Epic 9 developed with the Revolve World Cup wheels on it is huge, and that's where I talk about integration. Like the tire team is designing tires based on the wheel set, the wheel set and the tires are being designed in the course of the whole book with Epic Nine. So I feel like we got into so many specifics of like how to okay, we've got these tires, and the the the soak the spokes are this stiff. How do you match everything really well? So I have a lot of confidence in the whole team's ability to design them. And yeah, I mean, I picked the bike up today. Um, I had no bottle cages on yet, and no pedals, and it surprised me, and I've been picking it up quite a few times, and yeah, it was ridiculous, honestly. It's surprising, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

I love also, aside from everything that you just said, I love the feeling of the carbon spokes. Like they're light and they spin up fast and everything like that, but also there's like this added dimension of damping or like ride quality that just feels so good. And yeah, the bike is also so silent, yeah. You know, yeah, which is another thing that like I was gonna ask about that.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

You don't like why is it so quiet? Yeah, it's so quiet. Both like impact, you don't hear the knocks, bang, bang, bang, thing.

SPEAKER_03 46:52

Yeah, no, no, it's just dead silent. You're saying the whole bike. Yeah, like why? Um, again, I would say that it's years of work on that. I mean, we we worked on it you know years ago. We really made a big stride um on the 2019 stump jumper. Again, going back to my brother and I digging in and other teammates that we have around here that have dug in and looking at you know, chainstay protector technology.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Um and just literally like was designed to interrupt the sine wave of a chain, right? Yeah, I mean trying to calm down the chain. Okay, so if we think about, oh, you know, just just put something on the chainstay that keeps it from slapping, right? That's the way I would think about it. No, our team goes, let's analyze the sine wave of the chain and then put on our chainstay protector specific high points that will interrupt the sine wave and keep the chain stable. Like, what are you talking about? That's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 47:47

Go look, go look at slow-mo of a chain and it's it's all over the place. I mean, it's uh yeah, it's yeah, it's it's all over the place. So just trying to all that down and stuff is key and trying to take care of that.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Um there are people in the world, just so you know, rest easy listeners. There are people in the world studying the sine wave of chain slap and solving it for you before you even knew that that was a thing.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Sounds like a SIG album name, the sine wave of chain slap.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

You gotta have some wicked bass lines, that album. Uh excellent. Okay, cool. Um, and then on the revolve topic as well, like the cockpit.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

You know, I mean, when I'm riding the bike and I've been riding the Levos a lot lately, I gotta be honest. But then when the Epic Nine came out, I'm like, hey, I'm gonna be talking about this, I'm gonna do some writing about it. I want to spend some time on it. It really fired me up again. It, you know, I'm not sure I'm gonna be entering any XC races recently or coming up. I used to race a fair bit, but just the bike really fires me up. Everything that you guys have talked about, like how it rides. But one of the things that stoked me so much is like looking down at my cockpit, it's just like I'm in this machine. I feel like I'm in Star Wars or something. But you know, the other thing I would say is the compliance of that cockpit. What do you notice on it?

SPEAKER_02 49:13

Yeah, um, I've grown to really like the sweep and the stiffness and yeah, also the compliance. But I mean, really like when you're really twerking it for sprinting, uh, I'm curious. Like, I mean, you could probably speak on it, Jason, but like it's again where is the stiffness and when you're pulling this way, is it stiff? But when you need compliance this way, is it supple? Like, there's gotta be some layups or something.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

I'll be honest, that's another team that I don't I I I've ridden it and I know it, and I know some of the details on it, but the stiffness of what direction, you know, more compliant, what we targeted. I don't know off the top of my head. I mean, it's it this is one that is a new cockpit. So, you know, I know you got you on the team, you guys kind of uh this one is kind of like been added to the arsenal, so to speak, of it's doesn't have quite as much drop, so a lot of people didn't couldn't run the cockpit because it was too aggressive. I think you still might be R because you need to still run in the position. Yeah, but this new one, very much similar, the aesthetic and everything, and I think this is the one you're on right now, is it it's you know kind of more of a flat bar rather than a real drop. Um, and so it in theory we should be able to you know see a lot more people, it should fit people a little bit better. I know some of the other teams are on it.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

That's helpful to say. I've heard people um like my dad, you know, who's got some has got a back of a uh he's got legs of a 47-year-old but back of a 67-year-old. So he's a little more upright. And he didn't love how how down so the sweep of the integrated cockpit. So that's kind of cool to have like I'll I'll keep my super aggressive arrow position.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

Well, and also like just this year on the Levo R, we launched the same cockpit except in a rise. 20 mil rise. I haven't seen that. So get that to your pops.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. I just got a levo r, so I got a rest day on Thursday, and I'll I'll need to set it up by then. Perfect, yeah, perfect.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Okay, cool. Well, I've you know, those are the main topics that I wanted to talk about. You know, Chris, is there anything else on Epic 9 that you wanted to share?

SPEAKER_02 51:13

I mean, honestly, just to thank the team. Um, like this company is a bunch of people, and I've been really fortunate to like build the relationships over these years, and like the best moments happen. Like everybody who builds those bikes loves to ride, and the best moments happen, you know, when you're like not it doesn't feel like work. You're just out on the trails finding with curiosity, like thinking of what is gonna happen. I was riding with Jack with Jack yesterday testing some new product, and there's always that like curiosity, and I just appreciate the team so much because I told Jason this last year, like you know, we don't win alone. Um, I might be the only one coming across the line, and most of the time last year, like I was a teammate in second, or you know, it was pretty cool. So clearly there's a team aspect happening within the factory team, but it extends a lot wider. So I just have a lot of I just feel very fortunate to be a part of this big project, you know, to make bikes fast and cool. So thank you, Jason.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

That's cool of you to say, man. Yeah, it is a big team, you know, and everybody's doing what they can do to make the bike better. We're all watching you when you're racing. It's amazing to watch you do your thing and the rest of the team as well, of course. But yeah, to feel that to hear that you feel that way is really meaningful. Yeah, you know, and then what we're all doing at specialized, like we're able to do what we do and then make that available to riders in the world who benefit from your feedback, Jason, from you and the rest of the team and this integrated approach. And then it opens up more doors for this amazing thing, riding bikes. Like what a good thing that is. Absolutely. Jason, how about you? Anything else you want to add, brother?

SPEAKER_03 52:58

No, I mean, I think we've covered off on a lot of things as far as the bike goes. I mean, being able to, you know, be a part of this and even now just talking through some of this, it's it's exciting. I mean, it's it's a dream to come true to be able to uh you know, if if I told, you know, the 10, 12 year old me that I'd be design actually my fifth grade teacher did say, fifth and sixth grade teacher, she did say that when I grow up I'd be designing uh mountain bikes for the US ski team to train on in the offseason. Um so I mean buying up like that. Yeah, there you go. Um but uh yeah, I mean it's it just being able to do this and everything with the with these guys with the athletes and you know being able to work with them. I mean, uh the it's all the little details that we get and we think about on a daily basis. I mean, I could tell you like little nuggets that I've gotten from Christopher, from Haley, from Laura, Cena, you know, all these different athletes to be able to, you know, put into. And sometimes it's just like something of like, oh, we're gonna change the large a little bit because of you know, our athletes, you know, feedback here, the small from you know, feedback from Cena or, you know, whatever it is, um, and just being able to put all that in, it's it's awesome to be able to do that. It's it really is a dream come true to put us all together.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

Well, your passion, you know, it's like we were talking about the other time, the other day that that Christopher came around and you took a picture with him and you were just sharing me before we started talking. I was pod, you're like, you were looking at the picture of yourself and you're like, I was a little boy. Yeah, you know, it's like smile. You know, it is a dream. So anyway, thank you both so much for taking the time, what you do day in, day out, you know, to make this kind of thing possible. And to everyone listening or watching, thank you for tuning in to another episode. If you like this episode, you know, give us a like, give us a follow, subscribe. If you're listening, you can check it out visually on YouTube if you want. And if you watched us on YouTube, you can pick us up anywhere you get your podcast. So until then, keep riding, keep the rubber side down, keep it fun. We'll talk to you next time.