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The Specialized Podcast
Going behind the curtain to talk to the riders and creators working hard to make your ride better.
The Specialized Podcast
Body Geometry | Remco’s Secret to More Power and Less Pain.
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How do top pros like Remco Evenepoel and Demi Vollering stay powerful, efficient, and pain-free for hours at race intensity?
They do not leave fit to chance.
They rely on ergonomically designed, scientifically proven Body Geometry bike fit and products built to increase performance and comfort.
In this conversation about power, pain, fit, science, and the ergonomic advantage behind the fastest riders in the world, guests Jason Williams and Ashley Sult explain how Body Geometry became one of Specialized’s biggest performance advantages.
They get into the origin of Body Geometry, why Specialized started studying the rider as much as the bike, and how fit data drives the product development of saddles, shoes, gloves, handlebars, and frame geometry.
Ashley explains what happens when contact points are wrong, how small problems compound over time, and why the right support and adjusting the bike to fit the body improves comfort, reduces injury risk, and help riders produce power more efficiently by being more comfortable.
Together, they call bullshit on old adages like “no pain, no gain”, and they make complex science understandable to identify and solve common problems like pain in the posterior, feet, neck and hands, and losing power through poor fit. They also cover the process Specialized uses to design products around the human body.
This episode covers:
- Why virtually every rider loses power through poor fit
- Why better comfort translated to better performance
- How rider data informs product development
- What professional athletes reveal about fit at the highest level, and what that means to you
- Why the best equipment helps the bike disappear beneath the rider
- How Body Geometry helps riders reduce pain and improve performance
- Why Remco, Demi, and many top pros rely on precise fit and ergonomic products
- Why rider pain is not something to suffer through
- How Body Geometry started and why it became core to Specialized
- Why fit, product, and performance have to work together
- What the varus wedge does and why foot alignment matters
- How longitudinal arch support and the metatarsal button improve foot stability
- Why saddle width, shape, and pressure mapping matter for real riders
GUESTS: Jason Williams and Ashley Sult
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If riders like Remco Evanpol and Demi Vollering are changing their position and changing the products they ride to ride better, to ride faster and lot ride in more comfort, there's got to be something to this. And our two guests today, Jason Williams and Ashley Solt, are two of the many folks on the body geometry team that are doing the fits and developing the products that help riders ride with more comfort, more power, more endurance, and less pain. And it's great to have you both on the specialized podcast. Thanks for making the time.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Ben. Thanks.
SPEAKER_02Hey, I want to start right from the top and just kind of as big a picture as you can say, Jason. What is the whole thing about fit and why do so many riders ride with pain and leave power and efficiency on the table? What's the issue there?
SPEAKER_00Well, ultimately, I think what it comes down to is that the human body sort of evolved to walk naturally across varied landscapes. So, you know, covering ground on our feet is really how the human body evolved. And then when we come to riding a bicycle, boy, trying to put that same body onto a bicycle, a machine that sort of operates in a very, a very restricted fashion is such a big hurdle for the body to sort of accommodate the bike. So fundamentally, the bicycle is a great way for the body to move across the landscape. But also there's challenges in putting a human body that meant to walk and move across varied landscape. Put that body onto a bicycle is is really a challenge. And that's made a career for me and a lot of us to try and find a way to sort of match the bicycle and rider, put them together and give them the best, the best function to cross the ground as fast and efficiently as possible. Well, that's great.
SPEAKER_02I asked you to go high level and you went, you went Darwinian on me. You went Darwinian on me. So that's amazing if you think about it. Yeah, bipedal ambulation. We walk around the surface of the earth and the body moves in a certain way. Usually that works pretty well. But when you take that body and you put it on a bicycle, in evolutionary terms, pretty recent, and then you're in this one fixed pattern, it only makes sense that that can result in in some challenges. So then what's the solution to that? Like, is there is there a way to reduce pain, increase performance, and and what is that path?
SPEAKER_00You know, I I think for a lot of us we're we're problem solvers, we're trying to identify problems and and solve those. And and so what we want to try and do is is solve problems where the human connects to the bicycle. And so for a lot of the work that we do in body geometry, that's the equipment that we do at specializes, the shoes, the saddles, the gloves, the handlebars, the touch points. And identifying the right touch points to help the rider match properly to the bicycle is a huge piece of the puzzle. So we have to understand what a certain rider needs and try and identify the part to try and help them match the bicycle and reduce any potential problems with that interface. Amazing.
SPEAKER_02And how can we apply ergonomics and the scientific method to support riders initially in that one problem, but it really expanded? How can we help riders decrease pain, increase performance, like power output efficiency, and you know, solve these problems? So it led from saddles to shoes. We started working with Andy Pruitt, outer Boulder Center for Sports Medicine, um, and really developed a shoe technology and then gloves, and then ultimately fit, which is where the whole thing comes together. So a repeatable fit protocol, and you know, putting kind of a pin into that, I've flapped my jaws for enough now. I I want to ask either of you that want to take this, but you both go around the world and engage in fit and and adapting the products and selecting the right products for some of the fastest riders in the world. Um, here's a question. Of all the riders that you've worked with, maybe take us through what the fit process looks like and some of the problems or changes that you've been able to solve. I know that's a broad aperture question.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think if we speak broadly about um the work that Ashley and I do with our pro athletes, um, and you know, it's it's so nice to have Ashley side by side with us uh as a footwear designer, developer, and with deep knowledge about what can be done with footwear. Um, but as we go into uh we meet a new athlete and we start to onboard them, so to speak. We want to understand what their needs are. And so it starts with a full physical evaluation. We really want to learn what their body brings to the bicycle. Um, and so a lot of that really starts at the ground, you know, at the at the feet. So oftentimes Ashley's the first person they meet because we before that we can even get them onto the bike, we need to get them into some shoes. And so that's it's really like that first intro into a new rider joins a specialized team. They're part of our family now. Ashley will take them through a full foot um eval um along with the fitters to try and get them set up. And I don't know if you want to speak to that because it really is kind of one of the first interactions that riders have with our brand. And maybe a specific rider.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Um, I mean, I think to to to maybe to start broadly, I think one of the biggest bummers is that I can't look at somebody's foot and know exactly what shoe is going to work best for them because everybody has preferences on how they want their footwear to fit. And that can go back, you know, what kind of other sports maybe they played, what kind of other sports they do. And so what's really lovely when we go to team camps is that I have everything with me. And so they get to try everything on. And I I can't even begin to say like the ability to try product on is base level. So um, being able to put a bunch of people in a new product all the time is is really nice. And I can think of like the language that the riders use about how they want their footwear to fit all comes down to comfort. Um, and going back actually to a question you had about like what do we do in order to make people comfortable on the bike? And I think one of the first things we do is tell them that being uncomfortable is actually not the way it should be.
SPEAKER_02Such an important point. Like I think so many people ride a bike and it's uncomfortable on their butt or it's uncomfortable in their shoe, or they've always had this little knee pain, and they just think that's that's price of admission. No, exactly. And it's not. So you're calling BS on that. Total BS. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So we got to find them the right thing that's right for them and their foot. Um, you know, I I think a great example of that is someone like Remco. He's tried a bunch of different shoes. He is actually one of the few riders who actually doesn't seem to have a problem going from shoe to shoe. A lot of times, riders find a shoe and they they stay in that until I force them to change into something new. And so, you know, Remco really talks about wanting support. He wants this rapping feeling, and that started out as the very first um Aries. So they that was the first shoe that he came into when he came into the brand. And then that kind of came into a lace shoe later when we replaced that shoe. So getting riders to try on a variety of shoes is really helpful in getting people to understand that you know, there's a reason we make multiple shoes at the S Works level, and it's because different feet want different experiences.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's something that that all riders can can experience as well at the specialized retailer. Like they're stocking a range of shoes, they're educated on the shoes. So whether you're Remco, Demi, or someone who just loves to ride, you can go to the specialized shop and have that same aspect.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Great.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so it starts with shoes, starts with comfort. Yeah, comfort isn't something that's soft, that's not performance. Actually, comfort is the doorway into performance, right? Because when we're comfortable in the position where we can be powerful and efficient, we stay in that position longer. I mean, it's logical when you stop to think about it, but this whole idea no pain, no gain, like that's bad. That's a real thing.
SPEAKER_01That's old school thinking. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_02So you start with the feet, which is makes sense because it's foundational, right? It's also the lever that we're putting the power through. And then where does the fit go from there?
SPEAKER_00So it goes beyond just the fit of the shoe. So obviously, um, what's nice is we have a variety of different shoe shapes, different designs of shoe to match the rider. So we can pick the right shoe and get the fit that feels appropriate, but we also want to set up the shoe to give them that foundation of power that you mentioned. So we build into the shoe, you know, some ergonomic features that are really critical, but every rider is different, right? And that's a key piece of the fit experience, is that we're trying to optimize the connection point, the shoes, the saddle, the handlebar to that rider. And so some riders need more or less support. Some riders need wider or narrower fit, some riders need different cleat positions fore and aft. And the the body geometry fit protocol is really designed around evaluating the rider and trying to optimize all of those adjustments so that the pedaling is as natural and neutral as possible. Because where we see problems, Ashley deals with, you know, localized foot trouble or shoe trouble. We as fitters deal with trouble that goes up the chain. So knee and hip problems that are in sometimes related to uh the foot foundation, yeah, zart support or things like that. And so, um, so yeah, we we tend to sort of optimize at the shoe with a mind for the knee and the hip and up the chain from there. It makes all the sense in the world. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So in footwear, we have three body geometry features that is in every piece of specialized footwear. So you have the varus wedge, which is a four foot angulation, longitudinal arch, which is kind of if you're looking at the inside of your foot, that's that long arch. And then we also have a metatarsal button, which is a bump right under the metatarsals that helps kind of spread those metatarsals out. And now in S Works Areas 2, we also have the body geometry natural last, which is really making shoes shaped like feet instead of feet shaped like shoes.
SPEAKER_02So the varus wedge is a is a wedge. So like the inside of the foot is a little higher than the outside of the foot. Yep. And what does that do?
SPEAKER_01It's really about alignment. Like Jason said, it's about alignment going up the chain. And so we have a body of evidence that says that most people, overwhelming majority of people, have this forefoot varus angulation. And so we're really bringing the shoe up to meet the foot rather than having the foot have to come down and meet the shoe. Um, some people do not. I have neutral forefoot, and so I actually neutralize my shoes. We offer aftermarket varus wedges for that, varus and valgus wedges for that. Um, so yeah, it's really just about bringing the foot, the shoe up to meet the foot rather than the other way.
SPEAKER_02And so when you when you bring that, when you put the varus angulation in, then you're getting better alignment between the foot, the knee, and the hip. And you're able to start with something stock for most people is good. But in a fit assessment, you're able to see what that particular individual is. Maybe it is neutral. Yeah. Maybe it's valgus. Yep. But most people are varus. So that's overwhelming. And longitudinal arch, the idea there is you're supporting the arch of the foot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's funny, you know, when we started making the body geometry shoes, up until then, like the idea was just as stiff as can be is fine. But you look inside every cycling shoe, it was flat as a pancake. Oh, yeah. It was just flat. So you have this stiff shoe that you put a flexible, like leaf spring of an arch in there, and with every pedal stroke, your foot was collapsing a little.
SPEAKER_01You're doing a lot of work to keep it stable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And now, you know, you see it in other shoes, obviously. But and then the last one was that metatarsal button.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02And and you're saying that's a button that like lifts and separates the bottom.
SPEAKER_01Gives space for blood flow and for your nerves to pass through.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So if any, if any riders ever felt like numbness or hot foot, probably most people are like, Yeah, I've experienced that at least to some degree. That's because those bones are being squeezed together.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, it's a part of an entire system, right? So cleat placement also is a part of that. Like, um, and that's why when somebody says, Well, I get numb feet, it's like, well, we let's start with the basics, but it's it's probably a bike fit too. Yeah. Got it. Got it.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And then from the fit, so you're starting at the at the feet, but then what else, what else happens in those fits?
SPEAKER_00Well, as I mentioned, we we look at uh a pretty full assessment of the rider's body. So we're looking at flexibility and range of motion. We want to know if there's injuries, if there's, you know, for a lot of these professional athletes, there's there's been crashes. There's been sometimes some pretty substantial injuries, right? So we need to know what those injuries are and how we can accommodate them. So if there's uh broken collarbone or broken hip, or I mean, there's, you know, some of these injuries, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Except maybe broke both collarbones.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So um it's injuries, but also just um genetic or predisposition towards um leg length uh discrepancy. Some people have a longer leg on one side or the other. And we need to know all those factors before we then can sort of diagnose or prescribe a position uh on the bicycle. So, yeah, starting with the shoes and building a good foundation, and then with knowledge of any asymmetry or injuries, we work towards a seat height and a saddle position that is appropriate. But but really we have to also resolve the other contact point as we come up the chain, and that's the saddle. Um, and you know, you mentioned that earlier that the the cutaway, the body geometry foundation was was huge. But then the second step in saddle evolution was was size-specific saddles. And and I I can't speak to that enough. It's so critical to get on a saddle that's an appropriate width for you. And so, you know, we evaluate all the riders. We have digital tools to measure the bone of the pelvis to really document and prescribe an appropriate width saddle for a rider. So we call it the DSD, the digital sit bone device, and it measures the sit bone width. And obviously, on a bicycle saddle, you may not be sitting on the sit bones like you would on a bench, but we can infer from that the pelvic width as it runs forward towards where you would sit on a bicycle saddle. And so we want to define the appropriate width for each rider. Um, and then there's also saddle design. So uh not everybody gets on with the same saddle shape. So we make uh a wide variety of saddle designs. Some are more curved, some are more you know, rounded or flared in different features. Um, so we want to define both the right width and the right shape for a rider. Um, so it's it's all part of that interaction to build from the shoes up to the saddle and really get that foundation um as appropriate as it can be for that athlete.
SPEAKER_02When when you're talking about it, it seems to me it feels so simultaneously logical and also involved. Like, okay, you start with the feet, that makes sense. Then you're working your way up. Obviously, we're sitting on a saddle, and the way we sit on the saddle matters. And different humans have different physiological shapes. You we have we have a range, right? Two bodies, no two bodies are the same. And and then so you want to measure the sit bone width because I guess the idea is you want the body to be supported by the skeleton, not by the soft tissue. Is that right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, correct. So, you know, finding a good foundation on the skeleton is is critical to not um impede blood flow. But you know, the cutout is critical, but if the cutout is still not supported properly on the bone, then the rider could either a sit rotated or sit crooked on the bicycle because they might find one bone to sit on and hang off the other side. That's super common, or just sit around the saddle, or if the saddle's too wide, adjust themselves to sit contact outside on the like legs almost. Yeah, so there's there's so much that goes into that interface. I mean, uh, we could spend a whole hour just talking about saddle interface, of course.
SPEAKER_02Um I'm actually quite impressed by your uh restraint to not go that deep. I'm a whole I'm holding back. No, holding back. It's good, but you know, it is interesting, and having had more than one fit, it's really illuminating. Like you kind of think, oh, I live in this body, I know all about my body, but actually, let me just tell you if you've never gotten a fit, you don't know about your body because as you're saying, like you're looking at flexibility, you're looking at leg length discrepancy. A lot of people have a leg length discrepancy, don't ever know it because no one ever measured it, right? Or like you have these habits of being slightly cocked on the bike. Maybe you know, maybe you don't. Maybe your riding buddies do, yeah, but no one's ever told you. So you're trained experts to be able to see these unique aspects of a human being, and then to be able to match up and make adjustments, of course, in partnership, like asking how does that feel in your body? Absolutely. But you're able to provide a particular lens. So you're talking about the width of the saddle, you're talking about the shape of the saddle, which has to do with physiology, with riding style, different things. Got it. And then where does it go from that? Like height, seat height, or yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I'll back up a step, and I'd say, I mean, you you make a good point. I think Ashley and I have been doing this long enough that we can see a lot of these things with our eye. We have a pretty good um recognition of certain patterns and certain um the way people sit on a bicycle. But I I really like rely heavily on the the body geometry software that we use. And I I can't speak highly enough about how much that informs my ability to understand the rider. Because without the accurate millimeter accurate definitions of how the body is interacting with the bicycle, I could see some of it, but I can't really see what's going on without the full data that we get from the body geometry motion capture system that we use. And that's really what lets us define some of the leg length discrepancies, some of the rotations that we might see on the bicycle. So yeah, I'd I'd say my eye is pretty good, but I lean heavily on the data to help confirm what we might see by eye. And so it's not just, you know, looking from across the room. I think we can tell a lot, but we really want to lean into the data to say this data indicates this. And usually the rider's like, oh yeah, that's that's I know that about myself. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you know, you can or I look down and one knee is closer to the top tube than the other. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00So usually the rider confirms what we see in the data. Like we see this in the data, and we talk, we discuss that with the rider, and they say, Oh, yeah, I know that. I've seen that. Like you said, my knee always does this. Yeah, we can see a number that actually validates what the rider is seeing and feeling. Um, and that really helps to then give us the ammunition to maybe make a change. If if that rider knows about this and we can tell them that we can measure it with millimeter precise data and then make an improvement and show them that improvement with the data. We've improved your knee tracking by certain millimeters. You know, you're now sitting straighter on the bike and that knee is farther back and pedaling more straight. It's really a home run for the rider to see the data confirms with a with a shoe or a footbed intervention or another adjustment to really bring that home for them.
SPEAKER_02That's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah, it's it's partly experience. You've seen a lot of fits and done a lot of fits. It's partly protocol. Here's the way we go about it. And it's partly the tools that let you quantify and then how you put that all together and just making this relevant for listeners who aren't demi or remco at a training camp that you go to, this same protocol, this same approach, the same training, and the same tools are available at specialized retailers who have done the body geometry fit training. And many of those fitters are extremely experienced. So this isn't something that's reserved for the pros. This is if you ride a bike and you want to stop hurting or decrease pain and increase performance, it's available for you. It's it's available for you. I want to just punch in and ask, like, I know that like the fit work that you both have done with Remco has resulted, if you look over the years, his position has changed a lot. And can you talk about that? You know, I know you know, I've heard him say in interviews, like, if Jason says this is the position that's good for me, I'm gonna go there. And like, what are some of the things that at first maybe he didn't think that you were able to guide him to that have been beneficial in his career?
SPEAKER_00If if I think way back, you know, when I when I first met Remco, he was fresh off the world championship as a junior, right? So 18 years old and and won the road and TT World Championships and and went directly to Quick Step. And um, you know, on I met him as an 18-year-old, and he was uh he was a super talent, but obviously at 18 didn't really know where he was going to be or where he should be. So he, you know, he'd say, Should I be here? Should I be here? How about here? How about here? You know, we had sort of the the sky was the limit about where we could go with him because of his uh his aptitude for the bicycle, his flexibility, his mobility. He had an exceptional talent to sit on a bicycle. But honestly, we used the retool data, the body geometry uh software data to help inform and say, that's crazy. That's crazy, this is realistic, this is good. And so, you know, we really leaned into the data. And I think that's why when he said Says, if Jason tells me to do something, I trust in that. And it's he trusts in me and us as a team, but also he trusts in the data that I show him. Here's what I'm seeing. Here's the numbers. I've measured it now for seven or eight years. And these numbers look like we're trending in the right direction. So we we really lean into the data to help make those decisions. Um, because it's it's not about opinion, it's really about letting the the science and the data drive the conversation. So I think he trusts us and the data to help make well-informed decisions. Um, and yes, his position has evolved over the years from 18 and having um flexibility of a rubber band.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Sure. So, like, you know, anything is possible at 18, but then as you evolve, and you know, there's been crashes and injuries since then. So we've had to sort of adapt and modify and and optimize um what was most aero with an older helmet is maybe not as arrow now with new shiv and new cockpit options, new UCI regulations. We have every year a reevaluation of what's possible in TT and Road Fit. Um, so yeah, we re-evaluate what's optimized uh every year. Very cool.
SPEAKER_02And so we we're going back to using the fit as an arc here. We talked about the feet a little bit, um, the shoe that feels right, the closure that feels right, varus valgus, where do you go, where the cleat is positioned? We worked our way up to the saddle, talked about evaluating that. And then how about like where once you determine what the right saddle might be, how do you determine where it ought to end up? Like in terms of height, for aft? Like, what is that? Is that the next step?
SPEAKER_00Some of it it is based on, you know, uh a preference in history. So a lot of times a rider has ridden at a certain saddle height for many years. So we want to like honor that and understand that. Um, but yeah, there are some data points in the software that really let us um it's a range, right? As you can imagine, um you might like to ride a little higher seat height, and we want to show that we'd say, okay, you can ride there. It takes a little bit more plant or flexion, you might be more toe down. But if that's your predisposition and and your flexibility allows for that, we'll um support that. But some people maybe have really tight hamstrings or back pain or injuries that would necessitate a slightly lower seat height. So the variables that we've worked on to get to the seat height lets us work within that range. Um, so it's it's not so much that there's a perfect seat height. Um, there's a window, and for each individual, we're gonna um optimize the seat height for their riding style. Yeah, riding style and who then physiology and history.
SPEAKER_02Exactly what you're saying for them personally to this specific. I think that's so important to say because there are trends, right? And a lot of people put a lot of time and energy into riding a bike. Maybe they haven't gotten a fit, but they read wherever they're getting their information. Oh, people are going to shorter cranks or they're doing this or they're doing that. And then they do that without really thinking about their body, their history, what works for them, and without the guidance that can help them figure out the shit the position that's right for them. And I think it's at very least less than optimal, and in some cases can be downright damaging, you know, to just adopt what was right for this pro or that pro and make a change, particularly if you make it wholesale overnight. Right. Yeah. So it's it's great what you're saying. It's very grounded in a pragmatic approach. You know, there is a window, but what's right for you is gonna be based on your history, what you're used to, and like the data and best practices.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think the crank length, obviously, it's a hot topic right now, and and you know, we could also go on for an hour about crank length. But um the reality is we're gonna have to have you guys back, clearly. I see you're like angling for more shows. Um no resistance next episode. Um, but no, I I think again, the crank length question, you could say, well, you know, the some of the top athletes these days are riding shorter cranks. That that is a true statement. Is it appropriate for me or Ashley or or another pro athlete that's joining the team is a different question. And how do you make that decision is is a really important piece. I mean, it's fashion, it's trend, but we have the tools in place to say biomechanically, that crank is too long for you. It's it adds increased flexion or too short. Yeah, exactly. So there's just a little bit on that, you know.
SPEAKER_02So does that have to do with like range of motion and the bigger circle you're pedaling?
SPEAKER_00Like, or or yeah, it's the there's a lot of factors at play, but with the biomechanical work that we do, the motion capture technology that we do can evaluate both the flexion and extension patterns of the knee and hip and ankle. And so if we see flexion and extension patterns that are out of range and are really in the extreme, you know, anything that's in the extreme can cause undue stress on the joint. And so, ankle, knee, or hip, any of those that are beyond a rider's limitation could cause a problem. And so we can identify when a crank is too long or too short because it's causing disordered or inappropriate flexion extension patterns. So the body geometry software can define that. And I think without really good accurate motion capture software, it's virtually impossible to make uh a prescription or a a recommendation recommendation on crank length. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna pause here. We're gonna come back to the fit process as our as our red thread through. But Ashley, you you really focus on the product side, primarily on shoes. Yep. You're you're the leader of all of our footwear, which if you look, we're talking a lot about pros, but if you look at all the pros in the Peloton, there's a lot of pros in our shoes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sneakily.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. Way more than than than the ones we're the official sponsors for. And that's a huge testament, you know, to how those are received. Same thing with saddles.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But I just want to ask you a question. You can take it whichever way you want, but in what ways does the fit process and the data that gets captured inform what you and the team are doing on the RD side, on the product development side?
SPEAKER_01To say that it informs it is almost an undersell. Like, so for example, the body geometry natural last came out of a hundred thousand foot scans that we got out of the match tower system that we had globally. Um, so that's not even just pros, right? That's the every day.
SPEAKER_02You're moving fast. So that's a that's a a scan of a foot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that you know the size of the human foot.
SPEAKER_01We had these match towers in specialized retail, and we could use part of the measuring system that came from body geometry fit and actually measure the basically the toe of the foot. So it was put in what's a DFD, it was called DFD. So we knew where the heel was and then it measured out around the toes. And so we were able to take all of these scans, put them in a computer and kind of find a line of best fit. And that's what informed the shape of uh Sworks Aries 2.
SPEAKER_02Of the new body geometry last that found its way into that. Yep. And and what was the nature of that? It got it got more volume, more volume, right?
SPEAKER_01Actually, not really more volume, a different shape. Yeah. So, so the big toe is a big, you know, we call it the big toe for a reason. It's this thing that kind of sticks out in the is inside of the foot. And so, really, instead of having this very pointed toe shape that is really from men's dress shoes, right? That's actually the history of lass is really long and essentially starts with men's dress shoes.
SPEAKER_02And actually, I'm gonna just jump in on it because I'm into feet, not like a weird fetish thing. No, I know you are, yeah. But I'm really into feet, and it actually was like men's dress shoes, but actually men's dress shoes were patterned after the boots that people who were rich enough to have horses were riding. Yes, true so their feet could go in a stirrup. So if you think about how whack that is, people who didn't have horses back in the 1700s, 1800s were emulating the style of the wealthy folks who had a particular shape of the shoe so they could ride the horse, they could conf could and so here we are still in modern day with these lasts of our shoes that really distort our feet. If you look at modern feet, the toe moves in. The big toe has been pushed over. You talked about the the chain from the foot all the way up, whether you're riding a bike or standing. Yeah, if the toe is in, there's collapse there that finds its way all the way up the chain. Yeah. I'm sorry that punched in on passion.
SPEAKER_01No, it's true. It's really true, though. I think that um people really don't know how much footwear is changing the shape of our feet, right? Like you have small toddlers who like their feet are not shaped the way most adults' feet are. And of course, that that would be true either way. But the reality is that, you know, we naturally have this very like kind of squared off toe shape and then a fall off there. And so what we did from like S Works Torch to S Works Aries 2 is that essentially it's a volume adjustment where it got moved more to toward the big toe and we took some volume out over like the third, fourth, fifth toe. And so that's the that's the biggest thing. That's the biggest change that that happened.
SPEAKER_02And what and what and what are the reports from that? Like what do riders say they experience in the shift in that last?
SPEAKER_01You know, it's it's funny because it's it's pretty mixed bag. I think the the big one is visually sometimes, you know, we all, or at least I, it looks a little different. Jason and I have talked a lot about this actually over the years because he talked about it going from S Works 7 to Sworx Torch, and then S Works Torch to S Works Aries. Is when you try the new shape, you're like, oh, this is different and maybe good. I don't know. But when you try to go back, you're like, how did I ever put my foot in that thing? Great point. And um, I was a diehard S Works six rider, which I hate to admit, but I I loved my S Works sixes. I wore them as my personal shoe until S Works Aries 2 came out. And I went into S Works Aries 2 and then went tried to go back to some Sworks 6 recons and was like, what was I doing to myself? This is insane. Um, and I think that is so telling is like we even myself here, I make I've been making shoes here at Special X for almost 10 years. I was like, no, these sixes feel great. I love the way they fit and the structure. And then I tried Aries and trying to go back, I was like, oh no, I was actually pretty uncomfortable and just accepting the discomfort.
SPEAKER_02It's so important, you know, and I like the language that you said, you know, oh, that's different. Different, right? It doesn't mean that what you were used to was better, but you were used to it.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02Right? You were used to it. It looked a certain way, da-da-da. But then when you let your foot in this case go more towards what its natural shape is, going back is a no-go. It's really no go. I ride I wear the wide toe box shoes normally, or like sandals that let my feet go wide. I'm walking around barefoot more than I ever used to. Yeah. And my feet are stronger. Yeah. I mean, we got 26 bones in the foot, 32 joints, four layers of muscle on the bottom of our feet. The type of they're incredible. Yeah, the type of nerves on our feet that are the same as our hands and our mouth. I'll stop soon. But it's like, and if you look at cultures where the foot hasn't been put in these artificial shapes, you see healthy feet, you see healthy posture, yeah, back pain, a lot of issues that we have, you don't have. Anyway, I'll stop with the feet because we could go an hour on that one. But but so, okay, so the we the question was I did remember the question. How how does the how does the data inform product development? And you said the last came directly out of six figures of scans of actual humans' feet. Yeah, does anyone have a bigger database than that?
SPEAKER_01The only larger database is like uh US military. Government. So I mean that's from the 70s, I think. So it's a really old database. So yeah, it's it's it's pretty cool. And we are still getting information out of that database um now that may inform product in the future. But especially with the the pros, like the the the work that we do with the pros, I think of pros as super users, right? They're spending more time on a bike at higher powers than anyone else. That's why we we pay them to ride a bike, right? Um, but that doesn't actually mean that their their needs for comfort then are higher than anybody else's. And so I know that if I make a shoe that they put on and take out for a ride and ride week in, week out, 30 hours a week. If that shoe is by and large comfortable for a pro, it's gonna be comfortable for an average user. And so all of this information I get about what does and doesn't work for them ends up in product that everybody can buy.
SPEAKER_02Amazing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And um, how about on saddles? Like we're scanning saddles. Like, does that find its way? Does fit data find its way into saddle shapes?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We do the digital scans of of feet to try and define um uh footwear shape. And as Ashley mentioned, the the new body geometry last is based on hundreds of thousands of foot scans. We also do the digital sit bone, but we also do pressure mapping on countless athletes uh at the pro levels as well as in the research that we do in developing saddles. And and I will say, like it was a bit of an aha moment for me when I started pressure mapping saddles and realizing that, well, A, people don't sit on a saddle like you might think they do, right? Like there's there's like the zone where you expect somebody might sit on the saddle. Some people may sit there, but then other people sit entirely differently on the saddle. And so where people land on a saddle is really variable based on their discipline, their riding style, their background. And so that really has driven a lot of innovation in our saddle category to try and optimize our saddle shapes and designs to allow riders to sit where they want to sit for optimum performance, but also give them appropriate support, an appropriate shape that supports them where they are finding the best uh performance on the saddle. So we do look to our pros to sort of inform like the pointy end um evolution of saddles, but we also test with countless athletes locally and all over the world pressure mapping and perception testing to make sure that we're really delivering product that's that fits a need, solves a problem for the athletes.
SPEAKER_02And can you talk a little bit about pressure mapping, like what that means? Not everyone listening know what that means.
SPEAKER_00Well, we have a couple different versions. We have um uh a research grade scientific uh system that we can drape over the top of the saddle and it measures uh the pressure in different zones. So we have uh very um high resolution and very um high performance pressure system that we use for all of our laboratory research. Um it's not something that you'd use in a in a retail store because it's um it's really designed for like university grade uh research. Right. And so we use that system to test all of our new saddles. And basically it's a it's a fabric drape that sits over the top of a prototype saddle, and we like to compare. Here's saddle A that we've had great success with. And if we're gonna launch saddle B, we want to make sure it's at least as good or hopefully way better than saddle A. So we want to evolve and improve on our designs always. And pressure is a is a good indicator of success because I think if a person has a high pressure in a certain zone, maybe not a problem right away, but with high mileage and high volume riding, high pressure could lead to saddle sores or friction or or problems. Um, so reducing pressure or hot spots on saddles, if we can do that across a large population of riders, we know that they're generally going to have a better performance on the saddle.
SPEAKER_02Got it. So there's a fabric drape, it's got some type of technology that allows you to measure the pressure. You can get a visual depiction of that. If it's red, then that's the a high hot spot, a high pressure area. And is the name of the game trying to decrease hot spots and also make sure that the weight of the rider is being supported in the right spots and not in the wrong spots?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's a combination. We want to um decrease the pressure where there might be high points of pressure, as we said, at the sit bones or at the pubic rami where the rider really sits heavy on the saddle. But something that we've also done a lot of work with is to reduce uh not so much pressure, but friction or irritation points where where riders may also interact with the saddle. That's not specifically pressure, but we want to decrease pressure at the at the heavy load zones, but also decrease friction and chafing and irritation elsewhere while still supporting the bones as well as we can, like we talked about earlier.
SPEAKER_02And this comes back to the topic you already mentioned, like shape. I'm thinking like power evo, where there's more of a scallop because some riders were saying I'm getting contact on the inside of my thighs. You know, so that so that's cool. So there's a way to quantify, you know, how much pressure and then optimize the shape of the saddle to decrease the pain, support the force where you want it more. And then also something we haven't talked about yet is the different types of padding. You know, there's mirror technology, there's mimic. What are these different technologies? Just maybe a top line, but what are the different technologies and what are the benefits they deliver?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think, you know, traditionally saddles were made out of some variation of foam, right? Like a foam saddle on top of a shell with some either, you know, originally leather or some sort of synthetic over the top of it. Um, that's kind of where we came from. Um, I would say going back about 10 years ago is when we pioneered the mimic technology, which was a um sort of like a memory foam, sort of uh low rebound. Yeah. So a foam that allows riders to move into the saddle and not get that high rebound pressure where the foam is pushing back at them. But particularly in those soft tissue areas for men and for women.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I would say that really like the the mimic was about what do we is the cutout right for everybody? And so you still want this pressure reduction, but maybe not nothing. And so that's where this low rebound, softer foam idea came from.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a it's a uh a sort of softer foam at the front, but also like you said, uh uh support and without a full cutout because sometimes the full cutout would cause um higher pressures at the edges where the saddle um went from foam to nothing. Yeah. Um so yeah, mimic was a combination of of actually pushing into for a company that made our name with saddles with cutout to then evolve a little bit and say, let's reduce pressure, let's give a a cutout recess, but not a full, you know, lack of support. So uh Mimic really pioneered into that category and it's material but also design. And then I think as we moved into mirror, we kept on that same theme, which is cut out pressure relief without being a full cutaway. And again, there are still people that do well with a cutaway, and we need to define them and make sure that we get them on a cutout saddle. There's other people that really need a bit of support with pressure relief and not a full cutout. And that's part of the discussion and part of the work we're doing to define the right saddle for each individual.
SPEAKER_02I have several things I just want to underscore from what you said. Like the scientific method is like, here's the data and here's the best we know right now, and we'll probably learn more things and continue to evolve and adapt. I think that's really important because a lot of brands I think would say, no, here's the shape, and this is our shape, and that's what we're known for, and we're not going to change. That's not a scientific approach. When you've when we found initially, I think with female riders with pressure like at the soft tissue, the labia, and that area, yeah, uncomfortable because the cutout had a kind of a an abrupt angle where the solution was pioneered. But then interestingly, lo and behold, a lot of men were also found benefit in that. So you know, it there's a there's a experience, there's the scientific approach. What's this growing body of knowledge and how is that evolving? That's one thing I wanted to underscore. The other one is it can if you're listening and you're confused, that might be understandable. There are a lot of shapes, there are a lot of uh padding technologies. There's things that the team has developed. The good news is at your specialized retailer, there are people who are trained to make it simple. Yep. To be able to help understand which one might be right for you and to bring some relief and and improve performance. You don't need to be in pain.
SPEAKER_01And hopefully test saddles too. Right. So you can take them out and ride them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's the that's a critical point there is to you know see your local retailer, or we have great guidance on the website, even to just go through a process to actually end up on a really uh Highly recommended saddle based on a simple website protocol, but your local retailer can also guide you through. And if you have significant discomfort, then a fitter in your local store can go the next level. They may have prep pressure mapping on site, they may have different options to go another level to help define the most appropriate saddle. And like Ashley said, the best is to try it, right? So like we need to say, we can give this recommendation. I think this will work well for you. You tell me how it goes after a couple rides. And if it doesn't, we'll switch it to something else. Right. And I think that's a it's it's something that we need to be pretty explicit about. We need to try the saddles, and if it's not working, let's switch it out and try something different because nobody should just be stuck with a saddle that's causing discomfort or injury. Um if if the saddle is causing harm, let's change it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. That's full stop. Yeah, full stop. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right. So where would you go coming back to our thread of like the fit process? Where would you go next to talk about what happens with fit?
SPEAKER_01When do we start steering a bike, Jason?
SPEAKER_00Well, so yeah, we we are working from the ground up, right? So we've talked about the the shoes and the foundation. We've let's assume that we've built uh an appropriate saddle selection and a saddle position in space. And again, we're really letting the retool software and the rider's experience and their goals help to develop that position. And then, yeah, then we make our way forward to the front end of the bike and we talk about where does the rider interact with the front end of the bike? And, you know, that's shifter brake lever position, that's you know, performing in the drops and on gravel bikes, if they're up on the tops and have a tops position as well as hoods and drops. So there's a lot of variety with how a rider interacts. And I'm speaking just about drop bars here, but you talk about mountain bikes and brake lever positions and shift uh lever angles. All of the cockpit interaction is so critical. And I think that's maybe something that gets overlooked when you think about fitting. A lot of the work is uh thought to be in shoes and saddle and saddle height, and then it's like, you know, do what you want with your shifters and brake levers. Throw it out there. But you know, if the brake levers are in a in an odd position and you have to have to reach for it. Yeah, you have to accommodate the bike. It's another place where the rider would have to adapt their body to the machine instead of the other way around. And I think that's a big part, again, if we really go deep on the front end interaction is making sure that just like at the feet, that the joint alignment is neutral and that the the positioning of access to brake levers, access to shifters, that all of that is neutral and doesn't cause excessive stress on the body. Because any anytime that the body has to go outside of its neutral posture and position, we're burning matches, trying to like go for the shifter or move for the brake levers. So really allowing the body to be neutral and natural. Um, but for the work that we do with elite athletes, we also have the chance to take them into the wind tunnel. We can do um arrow testing to make sure it's both ergonomically neutral, but also as arrow as possible. Um, so yeah, there's there's the biomechanical and and um sort of ergonomic side of the front end, but also we push a lot into the performance and physiology side. Um, with the work we do here at specialized, the wind tunnel and the human performance lab, we test physiology for economy of position to really make sure, especially in the time trial position, that a rider is not, you know, too high or too low and causing undue stress on their body, you know, uh restricting the breathing or otherwise. Um, so we can go super deep with how we optimize the front end for some of our elite pros.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm I can think of actually a rider who I can't remember which rider it was at Red Bull in December. So um, you know, when they go through like a drivetrain change, sometimes levers change shape, right? And so we were talking to a rider who was talking about falling off the front of the bike. I just feel like I'm really falling off the front of the bike. And they, the rider thought it was the saddle. And the saddle's like exactly in the spot that it was supposed to be everything, but it actually was that the levers were a little rotated down because of the new shape and the way that you know everybody measures a bike differently and the mechanics, the way the point that they use to measure a bike on the new shifter was a little different. And so the levers just ended up a little, a little rotated, bring it up. And then writers like, oh my gosh, it feels like my bike again. They rode half the year that way, though. Wow. So, and and that's really like that's such a small example of why we see a lot of riders like year after year, they get up in the Fit Stan every year. Something happens. And you never know.
SPEAKER_02It's like that old adage, you never step in the same river twice. Exactly. You know, because the river's not the same, and you're not the same and you're not the same. The bike might have changed, but but definitely your body has changed in some way. Yeah. So like it's not a one and done, which opens an interesting, you know, area of conversation too. Like you're adapting the adjusting the bike to fit the body, but is there also the opportunity in those moments to talk about like range of motion or something that a rider might do to off the bike, maybe to change you know their body that that the fit process illuminates that maybe they didn't know, like, hey, try some hamstring stretches or something like that.
SPEAKER_00That's the piece of the puzzle that um is really worth uh emphasizing is you know, we can work with the machine and the equipment. Like we make great equipment to help support the rider. We can optimize the placement of the equipment on the bike. But sometimes there is a piece of that rider like doing some work with uh a physiotherapist or um chiropractor or anybody that that could help them to then, yeah, like you said, work on a little hamstring mobility or a little hip mobility or resolve some some tension and asymmetries. Um, you know, with the pros, they have a whole army of people to help with that. But you know, local fitters oftentimes have uh a local professional or a series of professionals that they can refer to. And I think a referral out to uh a local to to um, you know, whether it's medical doctor or whatever the case is to try and resolve some of the things that are that are flagged in a fit, um, I think it's important. At some point it's outside of our scope. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. But a referral where it works. I mean, at the very least, it can shine a light on something that that rider didn't know about their body. And it can show up through the process of a fit, but guaranteed if someone's super tight in their hamstrings, which a lot of us are as cyclists, because it's one position, you know, or hip flexors, another notorious one. These things have effects on our posture, which then show up in all aspects of our life. So if you have a sore back or different things, the fit process could shine a light on something that you can take some steps to, you know, alleviate. And then your whole life is better. Not only are you faster on your group ride, but like you're more pain-free when you're at the desk or driving your car or just living your life, you know.
SPEAKER_01Then you'll love this. Actually, the there are several riders I talked to last fall who were saying their physios have started to encourage riders to either lift barefooted for you know, getting a lot of that foot strength, or there's all this foot strength like exercises and roll on and like uh gathering up towels with your toes. Yeah, I know all those moves. And so um, you know, not only it's like we've seen a big movement, I think, off the bike in normal footwear, there's been a big movement towards kind of this natural footwear. Um and yeah, the wide toe box, wide toe box shape. Exactly. And that's making its way into cycling, whether specialized did it or not. I'm glad that we we are on that that path. But um, even the physios and the you know, pro teams are like, hey, I we should really like strengthen your your literally the base. Yep. So which I think is super cool.
SPEAKER_02I'll take the bait and take it one step further. I love yoga, yeah, you know, and like having ridden my whole life, and I'm not a competitive cyclist now, but I raced quite a bit for a while. Like my relationship to my body was to push it harder all the time, and things like back pain and different pain. I thought it was just the price of admission, you know, until my low back, I had a serious problem after a lot of training in sciatica for a year and a half. I had pain down my leg. Ultimately, it led to understanding much more about my body and identifying those signals of discomfort or pain as actually flags that can help me learn about this amazing organism that I happen to reside within, you know. So things like yoga and just understanding the signals that the body is telling you, the body keeps the score. It really does. We like to be so hard-headed, and particularly I think as endurance athletes, we learn how to get in the pain cave. And that can even be celebrated, the suffer fest, right? And there's an element of that that is powerful and empowering, and there's an element of that that can be really unhealthy. And so knowing and building our own wisdom around where that line is, and then taking the steps we need to truly flourish, you know, not only in one little aspect, but throughout our life, the bike can be part of that path, you know.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02You open the door. So I just walked right in there. I love it.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think it's a really good point, Ben, that like I mentioned a fitter may flag something that's problematic. If there's a an injury or or something that's medical, we need to get the medical professionals involved. But there's a number of times when flexibility is a little bit limited, but it's not like medically problematic. But this person is just a little tight, a little restricted. So I've often recommended yoga or Pilates or some just flexibility routine routine of your choice to really help the body meet the bike, right? Get it moving. And yeah, and so I think I'm I'm a big fan of yoga, Pilates, whatever it is that feels natural and feels good on your body to keep everything, you know, limber and and neutral and natural, so that when you do come to the bike, you're not fighting against some inherent tension that you're already fighting just to get on the bike. We're trying to remove anything that's a distraction from your flow straight. And I think this discomfort or problems on the bike is a distraction from this sort of flow state or this kind of neutral, natural, and high performance uh function on the bike. So, yeah, our entire job is to try and reduce anything that would be noise in the mind or or noise um irritation to the body that could undermine your ability to perform. So, yeah, our job is to remove all of those barriers to performance.
SPEAKER_02Totally, totally. You mentioned a little bit about mountain bikes, and I think it is the case that most people think about bike fit primarily on drop bar bikes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Road and gravel, you know.
SPEAKER_01That's unfortunate.
SPEAKER_02And maybe a little bit in like cross-country mountain bikes, because there's like a ride and you know, race and train mindset that's analogous. So people are thinking efficiency and watts, but but but less in XC than road and gravel, I think. And then as you go into trail or in other disciplines that become more inclined, you know, yeah, towards trail or gravity riding, it it just drops off precipitously. I would just love wide aperture question. Where does fit fit within trail and enduro and and even cross country, like mountain biking? Is it important or not?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean that obviously I'm I'm partial. I think it's critical. Your your body doesn't really care or know that you're on a mountain bike. Like turning the pedals, your body still would benefit from being optimized. Now, optimized for mountain biking may be different from optimized for road biking. Um, but you know, our our fit software is tailored to each category. So we have a trail specific metric that the the software knows. You're on a trail bike and we're targeting that category of riding. Um, so it is critical. I'm not gonna fit a trail bike like a road bike, right? So that's um, and we do tailor the software to support that. Um, but you know, for trail riders, it's it's as much about being natural and comfortable as you're boosting off that jump. You know, you want to be, you want to have a good weight distribution when you're in the air. You want to you want to have suspension that functions and and does what it's supposed to while you're on the trail bike. So the the intent of trail bike fit is definitely uh a little different because we're talking more about weight distribution. It's a different experience.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a different experience. So so it needs to be tuned, but but you see it as as central.
SPEAKER_01I would even take it a step further and say that trail riders are spending even less time having five points of contact and have only four because they are sitting down so much less than somebody who rides drop bar bikes. And so the need to have like your feet appropriately supported for what oftentimes is way bigger power output and all the the you know, g outs and what's happening with with feet in trail bikes is really aggressive and supporting the feet appropriately, and that way you can stay more balanced on the bike and stay kind of in the body position that you want to stay in. I think I think that's like so important.
SPEAKER_02I agree, and I'm glad that you said that it's not the same because obviously it's not the same. Like I ride all kinds of bikes, but in my heart, I'm a trail rider. Like that's what I live for, and it is critical weight distribution for the way you ride on the bike. The position of the bike has a lot to do with how you move your mass over the terrain. And it's cool to know that that's incorporated within the body geometry fit protocol. If you go in to get a fit on trail, that's being considered. They're not going to try to put you in a position that's that's like a TT rider.
SPEAKER_00I mean, sometimes, sometimes in the interview on a trail bike, you know, the the rider might say, you know, I feel pretty good on the bike, but I have trouble getting over that log pile. And I say, Okay, well, that's giving me some insight as to what's going on. But then using the software and using the data that we cap, we can actually see where that rider is in space and know that their weight is a little too far back. So when they get to that log pile, they're stuck halfway, whereas their friends are up and over it. So, you know, that weight distribution is critical to, you know, not perform specifically in a race context, but to perform in clearing the obstacle you want to, getting over the rock pile or the log pile or feeling comfortable in the air off of a jump, whatever, you know, the use case is. So, yeah, the interview and and what the rider struggles with is part of what we try and resolve. We're problem solvers. I struggle to get over that lock, that log pile. Let's try and resolve that with weight distribution more than you know, optimizing for race performance. Right.
SPEAKER_02And then the the last the last question that I have before I open it up to see if you each have something more you want to say, is is there a place and what is the place of fit and body geometry equipment for someone who either is coming back to riding or is new to riding? Like I think a lot of people think fit and these products are for people who are. We've spent a lot of time talking about the Remcos, etc. But what I see these days, which fires me up so much, is that many people are coming to riding often now because of e-bikes like our Libos or or Creos different bikes that we offer because now they can participate again or come to cycling in a consistent way, maybe for the first time, and it's wonderful, right? It's a warm hug that allows everybody into the sport. But is someone in that kind of general description, are they gonna get anything out of a fit or is it not necessary?
SPEAKER_00Uh the wonderful thing about uh the e-bikes and the development in that category is that it does make cycling so much more inclusive, right? So that more riders can get on bikes. But those riders need support just like the elite pros to make sure that this new thing that is so wonderful and really can be supportive doesn't cause any problems. And so we really want to help support these athletes and have the most uh effective saddle height for them, not for the elite athlete, but really an appropriate position for a Como, for Ovado, for you know, riding to work or riding to pick the kids up from school. If if a rider has saddle discomfort or if a rider has knee pain when they ride to pick their kids up from school, they're gonna stop doing it. And so, again, removing those barriers to entry is critical. The e-bike removed a big barrier to entry. It really did um allow so many more people out on bikes and and really thriving in that way. Um, but if there's any trouble with saddle or or body discomfort, absolutely those those problems can be resolved. And um I I hope everybody knows that they're worth um evaluating that and seeing their local professionals to really see if if they can be more comfortable on the bike and and really help resolve any of those little problems. Thank you for that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think it's the pro has spent so much time on the bike they intuitively kind of already know. Like they're we're looking for the last couple percent, right? But somebody who's been away from riding, where the ethos of riding has changed so much in the last 10 years, the way you sit on a bike. I mean, we're we're thank God, not riding um in shapes that they were riding 15 years ago. Um, so I I just think that people coming back or coming to the sport for the first time, like you may not intuitively know that like your neck doesn't have to hurt, your lower back doesn't have to hurt. Uh, your hands shouldn't go numb, right? And so if the opportunity is there to get a bike fit, like there's literally only upside to that. Um, the same is true for buying equipment that's made for riding. Um, I think that it's it's easy to say, ah, I already have shoes or, you know, ah, it came with a saddle. But again, those are things that can kind of personalize your experience to to the bike and it's gonna make it all all the much better.
SPEAKER_02Wise words. Anything that we didn't cover that either of you would like to cover. I think we covered a lot of ground for sure. We covered a lot of ground. Yeah, okay, good. We've already queued up another couple episodes, so yeah, exactly. Yeah, we're we got like three episodes on feet alone. Yeah. Well, hey, if you stuck with us this long, we really want to thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed the show, like us, follow us, please um subscribe wherever you get your podcast. If you're listening and you didn't see it, you can check it out on YouTube. See the faces behind the voices if you like. Share it with someone who you think might benefit from the program. And until next time, ride your bike, have fun, keep the rubber side down.