Made by Mutant: The Mo Shafeek Interview

In this episode of Within the Donut Hole, we open the case to the beautifully obsessive world of vinyl collecting with a very special guest: Mo Shafeek, co-founder of Mutant.

We dive deep into Mutant’s Wake Up Dead Man vinyl soundtrack release. From the haunting score by Nathan Johnson to the intricate artwork, packaging, and the dangerously tempting variant - the devilish “Eve’s Apple”. This is a conversation about what happens when film, music, and design collide to create physical media.

We talk process, collaboration, and the philosophy behind making something you don’t just listen to but hold. What goes into crafting a release that feels like an extension of the film.

And yes, we discuss how our love life meets our love of collecting records, cassette recorders pressed to our television sets, and of course, Mutant’s Star Wars Revenge of the Sith Lava release. 

@aknivesoutpod

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Greetings, illustrious detectives. Welcome to Within the Donut Hole, a Benoit Blanc podcast. Join us as we investigate the case files of the beloved, groundbreaking cinematic mysteries created by Ryan Johnson. With a tip of the hat, we invite you into an in-depth and at times delightfully mysterious conversation exploring the world of Benoit Blanc. Each episode dives within the donut hole itself, unpacking Blanc's methods, monologues, and mysteries lurking beneath the surface of Knives Out, Glass Onion, Wake Up Dead Man, and beyond, where the truth really sits at the center. It's a new golden age of who doneits. This podcast is properly afoot.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Physical media is dead, or so they keep telling us. And yet, somewhere out there, a record drops, limited, obsessively designed, and sometimes gone in minutes. And suddenly the curious case of vinyl reopens. But it's not just about vinyl, it's about holding a film in your hands and hearing the mystery before you see it, the design, the intention, and the people behind it who refuse to let these stories only live in the cloud. And today we're talking to one of those people. Greetings, illustrious detectives. Welcome back to Within the Donut Hole, the unofficial Knives Out podcast where we dive deep into the films, the music, the mysteries, and all the delicious details hiding in plain sight. I am your host, John Williams, and today we have got such a show for you. Honestly, one of the reasons why I wanted to create this podcast. We are stepping outside of the film itself and into something that I absolutely love. Wake Up Dead Man doesn't just live on the screen, it lives on vinyl. Today we are joined by the co-founder of Mutant, the man, behind some of the most beautiful, thoughtful, and yes, occasionally dangerously limited releases in the game. Mo Shafiq. Mo, welcome to Within the Donut Hole.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Thank you so much, John. That was such a lovely introduction. My pleasure. I don't I don't envy your the the the monologuing you have to write to uh keep things on brand here for this this podcast. So that was very thoughtful and very special.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Excellent. I I love talking. I love talking about films, uh, music, soundtracks, collecting. So of all the things that I have to write today, this is an absolute pleasure. Um and again, thank you for coming on to the show. I'm so excited to uh pull back the curtain on all of your work. I want to start the conversation talking about money, which isn't necessarily, I think, the best way to start a conversation, but it comes down to this my mother, my girlfriend, and mutant. That's where I like to spend it. And in some cases, in some cases, all of it. So thank you from the bottom of my heart for keeping you know physical media alive and kicking.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Well, apologies to the women of your life, also. I'm sorry that you know you you're that meme of the person walking down the street with their girlfriend, and my record collection is just walking by you and tempting you.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

I know, I know. Luckily, she's well into it, and I didn't know this is my love advice for anyone. Make sure that when you find someone to spend your life with, you love the same things.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

It makes life so much better, you know, knowing that she loves going to the cure at the Hollywood Bowl, going to Amoeba, you know, going to conventions. And I'll I'll I'll share a little story with you later about how I bought a copy of a mutant release and didn't get her one.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Uh-oh, was right.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Um so you know, it's actually it's really funny. I'm gonna I'm gonna take this opportunity to go on a little tangent about my wife's relationship to physical media, you know. There was this interesting window of time that my wife, you know, she's we we share similar interests, you know, we both like similar music, though she is a little younger than me, so she has a a more a predisposition to the pop girlies. You know, she was early to Chapel Rome, she was early to Sabrina, she's been in the Ari stan, you know, fan community for forever. And you know, Taylor Swift is she's been into Taylor Swift since self-titled, right? So and here I am collecting records and being all these doing all these things, and my record collection grows and grows, and I make records, and then the collection grows and grows. And you know, I I feel like I may have politely inspired her to, you know, buy a record here and there. And you know, I've I've made records now for almost 15 years. I used to, for those who are listening who don't know anything about me, I used to co-run a record label called Mondo back in the day. And and you know, I we made some pretty collectible records back then. And um, you know, so you know, as as things were winding down there and I would check from time to time on discogs to see what records that I made were worth a lot of money, you know, I I had catalogued all these things. And I went and looked in my collection, and it looked, it turned out that the top ten most valuable records in my collection, seven of them were hers.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Records that she had just bought, apropos of nothing. Like she bought Rihanna's Anti, you know, at Urban Outfitters on discount. Okay. All of a sudden, mid-pandemic, it was worth like $800 or something. You know, worse in quotes, you know, these are all things that just kind of get inflowed inflated. But also, she had bought this. Well, I I had bought for her this Taylor Swift record from FYE, this, you know, now defunct or bankrupt, uh, you know, big box store that used to exist. And uh, you know, because she really wanted the re album Reputation by Taylor Swift, and all they had were picture discs. And I being the snob that I was, I was just sort of like, you can't get a picture disc. Let me see if I can find a color vinyl version of it. And so I found one on FYE.com. I bought it for her, and uh to this day, it is it is the most valuable thing in our record collection is this random Taylor Swift record that I bought for her as a gift that she seemingly maybe or didn't really care about that much at the time. Like, she definitely was thought it was thoughtful, but she was like, Oh, yeah, another record for our growing record collection. You know, like she was happy, she had it on digital, she's been, you know, an iTunes girly forever and all these things. So it is interesting how these things do pass along because now these are all in my office, and I can listen to her record collection all the time, all I want. And when she is shopping for her physical media, I'm also like, well, I guess that's also my physical media.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

I was gonna say, so the the the two collections commingle, but they commingle in your office, which I I believe I can see on your Instagram. I mean, you've got a wall of beautiful records.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Yeah. I've I've I've you know, when when we move into this new house a couple of years ago, I was like, I gotta make room for them. Like I there's just nothing I can't do. I have to so I decided to build something custom and it's been really great, but if I could be real, I've already outgrown it, and it's a it's it gives me a lot of anxiety how many records I have.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

I know. It's a it's a it can it's a dangerous lover of a drug, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

I I wouldn't change a thing and I go through it every now and then and I say like, oh I'll sell some things, I'll get rid of some things, and I find like three or four things in a C of a thousand that I'm like, yeah, I'll get rid of that. And then I'm like, oh no.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

My one in one out policy will never be truly stable.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

It it it it always ends up with you know, turns into Amoeba credit, and then all of a sudden you're walking out with another big bag. Yes, yes, so well, I I am such a huge fan of what you've done. It all feels like an extension of the film, not merchandise. Thank you. Um and I want to know where where did this love affair with film begin for you?

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Oh man, for me. You know, I I talk about this a lot with my mom because uh, you know, I I've been blissfully unaware of her feelings on the subject because she's been so supportive in my life and my love of movies. But as long as I can remember, she would just be taking me to the movies. Like we saw movies all the time. I remember seeing Who Framed Roger Abbott in theaters at like five times with her, always covering my eyes when when the judge, you know, reveals himself. For those who've still not seen Who Framed Roger Abbott. But you know, it it is a it's a world that I've been enamored with VHS, home video, DVDs, going to the movies ever since I was a child. And and and it and never went away. And separately, when I was like a teenager, I got really into the pop punk and music and emo scene. And and I was like always kind of into film soundtracks, you know, like Back to the Future was something that I listened to all the time. But like it would get even weirder than that. It was like not only like the cool stuff, you know, it wasn't even just Alan Sylvestri and John Williams, you know, no pun intended, but you know, it was just this this this whole thing where I would be like, I'd be watching the Richard Greco James Bond James Bond Jr. esque movie if looks could kill, and I'd love the music of that. And I would literally take a tape recorder and I would record the music of it, you know, and it would just like have it to listen to, and there'd be dialogue still encoded in it, but I would just have it and I would just sometimes just want to listen to the closing credits song, you know, from that movie. And you know, soundtrack collecting was just like not really a thing that was accessible to a child, you know. You can go to your Sam Goody or your Sun Coast video and you'd find a soundtrack selection, and those were always, without a doubt, full SRP, you know, talking about cost and and money spent, you know, like you'd go and if you want the soundtrack to Conair, and I'm talking the compilation from the Simon West film that has one pop song but only other other than that, just score, right? Like, that's like a $20 CD, and that's in like $90, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

And then, you know, meanwhile, you'd go, you know, to Best Buy and you can find like, you know, the new fill-in-the-blank pop artist for like on sale for $9.99. You know, it's like twice the price to get a film score. I remember when I bought my first Studio Ghibli soundtrack in 2001, I bought the soundtrack to Spirit It Away because I was like obsessed with the music of Johasai. And I remember just spending so much money to have that, and that was like such a prized possession. And so, like being into film music was like an expensive hobby, but being a film fan wasn't, and I never even saw a connection between the two things, you know, and and and then you know, uh somewhat accidentally, I I kind of just stumbled into a career and that like blended this world, this this mild fascination with film music, my my love of film, but also, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I was uh I worked in the the the music industry as a touring professional, as a as a tour manager, and and so uh being music industry adjacent also just sort of fit the criteria, and then somehow like this became my whole entire world. I kind of found this very, very specific niche and subset that like kind of fit all of my interests all at once.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

That's wonderful. That's wonderful to hear. And it's funny, I I thought I was the only person in the world that did it because you know, growing up as a kid of the 80s, I I did the same thing. I put the tape recorder against the TV speaker because I wanted the soundtrack to John Carpenter's Escape from New York. Oh, yeah. Which still sounds absolutely brilliant today. And I must have just worn that tape out. Anyone who's listening to this who's, you know, considerably younger just must think we're crazy. But that's what you had to do back then. To your point, I mean, you couldn't get that soundtrack. You I had to like get my grandparents to send a check to Germany or something, you know, to get that that on vinyl. And, you know, they didn't have the licensing right to Kurt Russell, so there was a big yellow dot over him on the cover. I mean, it was just absolutely brilliant. Well, congratulations on the launch of Mutant here recently in 2024. The new website looks fantastic. I've been watching you guys design, redesign, and it just, you've got it so dialed in. Obviously, we're here to talk about Wake Up Dead Man and the Knives Out World. When they were releasing the latest film, I was going, Well, okay, what where's the soundtrack? Is are we gonna get it on vinyl and is it gonna come out on Mondo? Is it gonna come out on Mutant? And you know, was just thrilled when it it landed in your house. And I know and and I'm I'm fascinated by this because in my mind, I want to believe, and it sounds like it is, you're sitting around a table discussing projects you guys would like to do, like the soundtracks you would like to work on. Is it as simple as that where you're on a Zoom call where you're all saying, Hey, you know what? I really am passionate about this film or this show, you know, can we go after it? Or is it a case of the the labels or the studios coming to you saying, Hey, we love what you're doing. Would you be interested in this?

SPEAKER_01 13:38

You know, it I it's it's it's evolved, right? You know, the early days of Mondo were certainly like, uh, I've always loved this movie. I'd like to put the soundtrack out for this. And, you know, and then we have to go digging through endless, endless, you know, balls of red tape to find, you know, what plug is going out of what, you know, knot and into what outlet, you know, because uh all the studios and all the labels and all the things that are inter intertwined, it was always such a strange beast. And you know, back then the studios were kind of just like thought it was novel, and they also had bigger staff so they can he humor and accommodate, you know, a bunch of annoying 20-year-olds being like, I really want to put the soundtrack out to Josie the Pussycats. Can I do that, please? And they'd be like, Yeah, sure. I always remember like when we we went to Universal Music Group and asked them to do Jurassic Park, the the guy who was there was like, seriously? All right, sure. You know, like that was his honest, his honest reaction to us wanting to put the score for Jurassic Park out on vinyl for the first time. So and that was in 2012, and so like that that that's how radically things have changed in you know 12, 13 years, is just that like now there's not a single thing that has never been put out, right? Like, and if it hasn't been put out, let me tell you, it's because it is impossible, you know, at this point. There, the all the holy grails are sort of are buried deep within the sand. And if you can't find them, then you can. But there's a lot of people with metal detectors above you. Um so but you know, with regards to like new releases and what we do now, it is very much still passion-driven, like you were asking. Like we are we are a hundred percent just being like, Oh, I watched something really cool. Like, this is a perfect example. Spencer, my coworker, the love of my life, my dear best friend who I used to co-run the music label with over at Mondo, he owned Death Vaults, and then we kind of blended you know, yeah, our businesses back in the Mondo days. Yeah, you know, like he was just like someone recommended to him the new Game of Thrones show, you know, a night of seven kingdoms. And he was not a Game of Thrones guy, but like someone convinced him to watch it and he watched it and he was like, the show rules. And he was just like, I think I want to do something with it. And we were like, okay, go off. Like, you know, like that that sounds awesome. I'm I I haven't seen it, but you know, I would obviously like if you love it, you should and he he's he's on his own path. And he like he figured it out. We were set to the label, they were like, Oh my god, yes, thank you. We've been like hoping someone would want to do something with this on physical, and we're working on it. You know, it's like just like that, right? Like, sometimes it is like right place, right time, you know, general interest. Sometimes it's like, you know, someone reaching out to us six months before a movie comes out and saying, like, hey, would you want to work on this? And we'd be like, Yeah, but we would like to see a screener first, and then we see a screener, or if we like it, we like it, we pursue it, you know? Um then sometimes it is like truly just like kismet, you know, like we happen to see something in a theater or at a film festival, and then we get to talking with somebody and they're like, Oh my god, we'd love for you to work on this, and we're like, Yeah, that's perfect, because we love this thing. And then it's also relationships to bring it back to to the Knives Out series, you know, like we we have because of the Alamo Draft House, we have been friendly with Ryan and Nathan Johnson now since like 2012. And it started with Looper. We, you know, we did this poster for Looper back at Mondo for the premiere of it at Fantastic Fest. And we had it there and we did this thing, and I got to meet Ryan, and it was really cool, and you know, and and then we started talking to his cousin Nathan about the spore for Looper, and then we m built this like insane thing. I don't know if you I mean I'm sure you have it, but but like you know, for the audience who's listening to it, if you like Google Mondo Looper vinyl, you can see it, but you can't really truly understand how how stupid it is. Stupidly complicated. There's like videos of it on the internet of us making it, but like if you've seen the film, you understand that like you know, uh the time travel is involved, and there's people who send back their you know assassination victims to the past and get assassinated and they get shot in the chest, you know, with this burlap sack over them, and and there's gold bars beneath it. And the artist we're working with, this brilliant man named Jay Shaw, he had this concept of like having the gold bars be the actual vinyl record sleeve, but it would be enshrouded in this like burlap sack that we would like have that had a big blast hole in it. And you know, he came up with the idea and then he like dusted his hands off of his hands, and then he like walked out the room and then like left it to me to figure out how to actually make this thing happen. And it was maybe the hardest thing I've ever had to make like physically because it required all of us coming into the office like on a weekend to like hand sand, hand stipple, hand like screen, hand print onto these burlap sacks to weather them, to make them, you know, like to make this thing and then like custom bag them and do all these things. It was like a whole, like a whole process, but like it was so fulfilling and so rewarding, and like unfortunately set a very, very strange precedent for me and Nathan because now Nathan and I like every time he has a new project, he's like, cool. So like are we gonna like you know drop this one out of the out of the space station? Are we gonna like you know, yeah, create you know, are we gonna actually time travel and get vintage? You know, like I'm I'm being facetious, he's the loveliest person in the world, but like, you know, every time we taught with, you know, like we the the galaxy-brained ideas come together. And so yeah, the mutant thing formerly, you know, post-Mondo has been a lot of relationships that we had built in the past that like continue on. So I mean, one of the this wasn't the last thing I worked on, but it was certainly towards the end over at Mondo was was Glass Onion. And that one was like Yeah, that's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

Your packaging, I was gonna bring that up when you were talking about complicated. I mean, I literally like exasperated out loud when I unwrapped it and went, oh my God, it's like the puzzle box. You know, it's it just I mean, it's genius, it's apex moment.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

I I had so much fun on that, and that was also very, very complicated. But that that is just the true joy of of the process, right? Like we and Nathan would just sit on the phone for hours just talking about like what else can we do, what else can we do. And it it's nice to have c creative collaborators like that, you know. Like some people sort of expect you to sort of just figure it all out, some people really do get themselves involved, and some people just don't care, which is fine also, you know. For some people, it is just a thing. But like, you know, Nathan doesn't put out, you know, a ton of records and and the every single one is special, and and it's been so fun to just sort of be like, oh, what can we do with this? And you know, with us, like I said, I've remembering back to like being like, Yeah, we'll watch a screener of it, you know, like and but most times it's just to see about the quality. I know Ryan's movies are gonna be good, like he has not missed. And so, like, you know, that's incredible. But the the the but when I knew that there was another knives out movie, like I I went to go see because I wanted to know what this one was gonna be so that I can start like basically pencil sketching and bouncing ideas off of with Nathan because like I knew this was gonna be like a four or five month process to like figure out what it was. And you know, as I was watching the movie the very first time at the the T Street offices, I was just like, oh my god, like Renaissance paintings and you know, uh and religion and textures and marble and wood grain and red knives and you know, like all these things that were just like so visually evocative. And so we, you know, we went into the lab and spent a couple of months figuring stuff out, and it was a super fun one to do. And and you know, it's been a it's been a fascinating journey just across all three of the knives out movie soundtracks because every single one of them has led to sort of another sort of, oh, this is what you can actually do with this, and and and and also about the like the collaboration thing again, like this time Nathan brought in Zachary Johnson, another member of the family who who designed some of the flowers, you know, uh the paintings of the flowers. I was just so like when I started when when the movies ended the first time and you saw the title treatment with the flowers on it, I just like had goosebumps. I'm getting goosebumps right now thinking about it.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

But just like that, just that that it that title treatment, and I was just sort of like, and then I talked to Nathan, and then I tried recreating the flowers, and he's just like, why don't we just get my brother who can you know made made the flowers in the first place? And then like he connected us, and then he created a bunch of custom flower pieces for us, and it was just like all this stuff where like I knew that I wanted the flowers to be buried underneath all the artwork and a die cut, and it was just like this really special process that like I'm I don't know, now I'm already like. morning the fact that like who knows when the next one will be, you know, or if the next one will happen. You know, it's got to.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

It, you know, it has to. I I worry about that. And that's part of the reason I started this podcast is like, I kind of want to keep, you know, I I kind of want to keep knives out going and be ready for the the next one. I do think, you know, Ryan's done three in a row. He probably as an artist would like to do something else. But you know, they're just so well received. Now, now hang on. I because this was what I was fascinated. So because I was curious to know, you know, are you seeing cuts of the movie? Is it just working purely from the music? Conversations with Ryan? Are you reading a script? Are you seeing storyboards? So before you and and Mutant got to you know work on or start the project, you actually saw a cut of the film.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Oh yeah, absolutely. I saw Glass Onion early too. No, so it's interesting because like music is always the last thing. And it was so funny in the in the brief window that we were a part of the Funko team, I remember so vividly that we were like at San Diego Comic-Con and we got into the Hall Age panel for Marvel. And it was my first time being in the Marvel Hall Age panel. And there was all this amazing stuff. It was the first time anyone had seen any footage from Black Panther Wakanda Forever. They had the trailer the very famous like one with the Kendrick Lamar song on it. And it was just like it was so and everyone like literally the casts were on stage they were crying and hugging each other. It was so amazing and I was like oh my god that movie's gonna be amazing and then we walked out and looked online and Funko were selling Funko pops of uh Black Panther Reconda forever like on model like you know new characters all this stuff and I was just like oh there is a world where like the studios are letting certain people be involved really early for very strategic moments like this. And I was like that's so weird because historically in the music space literally you're being asked like a month before the movie comes out. Wow it's like it's not an exaggeration the music departments bless them like if you ever meet anyone who works in film music just know they're always stressed out because they are always the last people involved that's because like you know historically like the scoring is the thing that happens the last right like you know a composer gets brought in to score over a final cut. Now some composers are coming are are involved in throughout the process you know and sometimes they're they're they're literally from day one and they're scoring on set you know that sometimes they are literally hired guns and they will come in and do all these things it has been very rare that there are definitely on a handful of times that I've seen like rough cuts of movies with temp score etc etc it it has happened. It's not always 95% of the time it is finished movies that have been completely wrapped picture and have fully finished scores. And then sometimes you do get brought in while the thing is like being developed and built and all this stuff. And so it's it's always always very different but like you know you know some filmmakers just finish things on time and well in advance and both Glass Onion and Knives Out and I'm sorry and Wake Up Deadman were you know finished several months before they came out and they had finished their post and they had done their final edits and their final mixes etc so like when I saw Glass Onion it was definitely like maybe like I don't know like four or five months before the movie came out and then Wake Up Deadman was I think maybe three months before it came out. I saw it in the summer before it came out in the fall um and like yeah they were f they were fully finished and and and you know it's not like oh by no means am I being I'm I'm not in that inner circle you know I'm not being like shared scripts or details and all that stuff. But you know once you know the film is a finished thing and they're sure they're showing it to to film press or they're showing it to people or for you know festival consideration etc like that once that movie is like is available then you know or when some movies are available that's when when things can be seen and I'm just so grateful that that anytime that happens because it does happen and it's always like a real privilege and it's always really special also just from a personal standpoint like to see a movie before anyone else has formed an opinion on it is always just like a weird thing. It's so rare you don't even realize it until you've seen a movie before truly anyone else has seen it and you get to be like oh my god I get to like actually form my opinion and not have my opinion be like based on public considerations. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Yeah it's amazing to me though that the music is last because I don't care how wonderful the movie is for me music is oxygen and if you turn the sound off or you watch a movie without music it just falls flat. Right? I mean it just is so important and they're given this limited time to do it.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

So it's a testament really to you know these composers and all the musicians to have to talk to Nathan with regard to his process because I'm pretty sure he is involved throughout you know and with Ryan and and writing music for the film and a lot you know being played on set and things like that. Like there there's elements of that that I'm sure happen because Nathan is so heavily involved. And some composers are like that and that's really cool you know but like yeah most times you know you're literally being you know you're being handed a finished film and you are literally just being like all right well let me see how I can make this work you know and when I say finished film and this is just like a post production thing like and this is something that has come up in maybe some other conversations around the world of like modern film music when it comes to like superhero movies for example right where you'll watch it and it'll be like oh this kind of sounds like something else right and then you realize that like oh yeah yeah like sometimes filmmakers will like put temp music in when they're editing it and then deliver the movie with the temp music to the composer and just be like just do something like that. You know? And then you realize that like went through that process of postproduction and this is something I've talked with a lot of about with a lot of composers is that like beating the temp is like impossible because a lot of times the filmmakers will be like ooh I kind of just like want it to sound as close to that as possible because they're they've already experienced it and they've already fallen in love with the the way the movie feels with that in it. You know it's like Hamnet for example which just came out the Max Richter track on the nature of daylight is at the end of that movie and that's you know a piece of music that that Max Richter wrote many, many many years ago. And that and this is you know maybe sort of hearsay at this point but the implication is that that was in the film as temp music and then they hired Max to come in and score the film and then when he came to write a piece to replace that it turned out the filmmakers were just like actually could we just leave your old piece in yeah yeah that's funny. Which is just fascinating right like you just go like well we've kind of fallen love with this moment with the moment you can't beat yourself like it just it is like the you did the best thing that you've ever done and and we're gonna keep that in there. Yeah so yeah it's a it's a strange world.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Anyway I'm kind of going on a tangent I think I think famously too I I believe that Lucas put some Bernard Herman from Psycho into Star Wars when they landed I got sucked into the you know by the tractor beam into the Death Star and Tom Williams just said you know what we're just gonna leave that in. I'm just gonna do what you know I'm not gonna beat that moment. So uh there's a little Bernard Herman from Psycho uh fascinating I didn't know that it would be it would be yeah to come up with something new over a suggestion. Well it sounds to me like Nathan is heavily involved with the project at Mutant the actual physical release the vinyl you know coming out which is really nice to hear how how much time from the moment you see it to it coming out in what was it January I believe is when you guys dropped the the final release how much time do you guys have to put all that together from the mastering to the art direction?

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Oh man I mean for Nathan's projects thankfully because I get to see the movies early like you know about six months um it was it was we were very very fortunate to be involved and through the process and basically all approved and in production by the time you know sometimes we are literally working on projects still after pre-orders you know like we launch pre-orders get the cover approved but everything else kind of has to get built because like you know we need to get our thing out when the the thing is actually on screens. And again because like music is an afterthought a lot of times it is like a okay but then now filmmakers are going on vacation because they literally have just spent the last three months doing marketing and promotion and post-production so they need a break and then you have to wait for them to come back in order to get your art approvals, you know? So fortunately we we were on the earlier side of things and so we were able to get that all wrapped up before the end of the whole entire process. But yeah no we've been fortunate that like we've had we've had more time on Nathan Johnson Ryan Johnson joints just because by the nature of being brought in early and it's very very special and we're very fortunate but it's not typical you know the average production you know I'm I'm I'm working on five or six projects right now of all varying scales. Some that like are long lead you know like the aim is to have this thing in stores the day the movie's out which is hard. Then there's the thing where it's like you have to have everything finished up and offer pre-order you know in a few weeks and then it'll once it goes into production then you know on in on shelves in three months but like you know it's all done relatively and then there's some things that you literally are just sort of like I've been working on you know a project that for a movie that came out in November and I'm still working on it just because of how long and complicated the approval process is and you just go like all right well this thing just comes out when it comes out you know so everything is different. And and we're we're fortunate that so far to date when working on projects in the the the Johnson family that everything kind of stays on track. And you know we have self-imposed deadlines and we have a window of time where we can be as creative and you know high in this high in the sky idea phase as we want to and then once we realize you know what our actual timelines are in order to have something done in time it certainly helps to have a deadline because otherwise you can just sort of amble about and and take your time and you know you kind of need to have the thing out once people start seeing the movie.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Nothing like a sharp deadline. Well does the music because this particular the Wake Up Deadman release I mean sounds unbelievable on vinyl. I just had finished a two-year remodel I live in Palm Springs and I bought a 1957 mid-century home and literally the final thing I did was I bought are you familiar with Ren Silva? No actually is a company out of San Diego that builds the late 50s early 60s record councils where you lift the top up and there's the record player and the spill built in but it's with you know today's technology. And whenever I want to show off the Ren Silva and it looks like it's from the 60s so it worked in the midcentury modern vibe and it just shows off this really shows off the the glory of the sound system. Does Mutant have to do any kind of mastering or remastering specifically for your you know releases for vinyl?

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Oh yeah absolutely well audio I mean modern audio you know gets delivered in a number of different ways there are some people who are heavily involved in it but you know vinyl is an afterthought and there are some people who are like vinyl is the main thought um and you know but fortunately because we work on mostly studio projects a lot of the times you know these things are being mastered at the same time by the same engineers or different formats right you know we have a single source of someone who was like okay well here's the deal I want to do a digital album a CD album and a vinyl album and we get to be like okay so the the you know every single one of those is very different format right like well let's let's create the best possible versions of each of those and you know develop you know make sure that it's sequenced properly for all the formats or know that like we want to make a listenable record. It's an experience right you know you have four sides to flip around and make sure that it you know it sounds good on every side but also that you know the breaks make sense and you know the splits are all all coherent and then sometimes you're just like well I have like every single track I wrote for this thing I want to release you're like well that's probably better for CD and digital you know like we want to put out a listenable album and not like have a thing that's just kind of overstuffed just to like have every single thing. You know completionist exists and sometimes we want to also make a record that is a true like listenable experience for the for the casual audience. And so with regard to mastering yeah I mean we trust professionals we have we have engineers who will take audio that comes from the source and and set it up for vinyl certainly and then we would get test pressings we review them you know composers review them and listen to them and listen back and provide feedback and notes. Sometimes even film directors get involved in the process too. And then you know sometimes it is as simple as well you know they were already planning on making vinyl they they were smart enough to to get the vinyl cuts ready to go and we are just being brought in to be the partner to to make them happen and the fun stuff is in the creative on the art side rather than the audio side because a lot of times there's there's other cooks in the kitchen who are who are more concerned with the audio stuff and we get to be supportive partners and we get our share of chest pressings to listen to but like ultimately decision lies with the studio and the composer himself or herself.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Excellent well tell tell me a little bit about the collaboration between Mutant and the artist designer Randy Ortiz who worked specifically on the Wake Up Dead Man release Yeah absolutely Randy is an immeasurable talent someone that I've known forever he's worked on a number of record releases for us.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

We, you know, we we we started working together back in like 2012 or 2013 an incredible artist who who worked in graphite he's recently moved to oil paintings and in fact like he kind of like got out of the pop culture scene around the same time around the same time that we were you know getting out of Funko. And so I remember just like looking at his current art releases and none of them were pop culture. There were all these beautiful sort of Renaissance style paintings and I just saw them and they're so gothic and I just had this vision in my head I was like you know I really really want to see like a Renaissance style painting by Randy but about the story. And so you know I spoke with him and he was like super into it because that's his scene but also he hadn't seen the movie and unfortunately we weren't able to share the movie right so I kind of had to just like talk with him and speak with him about what the some of the plot elements and like sort of talk through like what I thought might be a good idea and we went back and forth and you know he did a couple sketches and then me, Nathan and Randy all basically like came to a decision about like what we thought the painting should be and then and then you know because oil painting is like such a you there's no backseas on that you know yeah uh he you know he was like all right like last last chance because I'm gonna start painting this and after that like it has to dry and after that it I you know like you can make like multiple coats on it but like you there's no like revisions and so we have to really be very specific and particular with this one. And you know some of that comes down to like what talent you're allowed to illustrate what what you're not you know like you know there there's definitely different things that come into play with regards to like how you approach artwork with with talent and also with with artists who specialize in you know good likenesses or not like who are bad with likenesses but are good with everything else. You know, you kind of like take every single thing into consideration when you're developing stuff like this. But Randy is is so special and so good at at what he does. And some of my favorite things I've ever worked on both at Mondo and now here have been done by him and I hope I get to work with him again because he's a true talent, an incredible talent and like I can't even begin to you know understand exactly how much work goes into the prep and and you know the scope of a project like a a fully finished oil painting like that.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Yeah it was it was such a thrill I I was able to secure a a ticket to the Amoeba event and drove into town for it and you know got to hold it in line as we were you know all queued up there on Vine Street to go in for the autograph session and they had just boxes of it which was kind of a cool photo. I actually I saw you walk by and video the line.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

And that stuff still still makes me happy sometimes people line up for stuff you know it it does. And I when I showed up I was really going who's gonna be here like I was really curious as to the demographics and I was so happy to see younger younger adults there we go yeah in that line queued up holding vinyl I mean it just made me feel so good to look at Randy's work to open it up to pull it out what you know what am I gonna get signed? What side am I gonna get signed? I mean it was really striking and just perfectly suited for the film for the music now on the website it says packaging by yourself. It was you that did all the packaging now that you've worked across multiple knives out releases is there of a visual an intentional visual continuity between them or are they just all three completely different?

SPEAKER_01 39:49

You know, once we broke from tradition with Glass Onion we felt a little freer and we were we were trying to make it considerate of of having a match and style I have to sort of give a lot of credit to Jay Shaw who who started with Loot Burr and then brought his mind to Knives out and came up with like a house style for that that I tried to bring to Glass Onion but I was when I brought Jay in because he had already left the company at this point he started working at Valve. Jay you know we flew out to watch Glass Onion together and we bounced ideas off of each other and he was gonna do it with me and eventually he was like I don't really actually have the time but I would love for you to sort of work on this your on your own and and you know he was kind of a little more supportive than that he was just like yeah you got this I I I I already tell I'm holding you back. And I couldn't tell if that was him just being like I'm too busy but also like I I believe in you know either way I was very felt very supported. But you know he was you know I I shared a lot of the ideas with him because I wanted to make sure he was co-credited because we did we did sort of bounce a lot of my stuff around each other. And but after Glass Onion, you know we we I've I've tried my best to keep certain elements from the knives out stuff across the board including the similar fonts and similar titling conventions you know it's actually really interesting. Maybe you wouldn't notice this or whatever, but like you know with regards to like he, you know Jay put a Benoit Blanc mystery on the first one and I brought that to Glass Onion and people didn't bat an eye but there was this whole thing where it was like it's glass onion a knives out mystery so a Benoit Blanc mystery is kind of redundant and like we were fortunate enough that creative top down Ryan and Nathan were like no we prefer it this way and also we prefer it to not say a knives out mystery on the vinyl and everyone was sort of like yeah that's fine. And then we got to Wake Up Dead man and the same thing happened where they were like well it needs to say knives out mystery and then we kind of like had our conversations where we were like well the last two didn't say that and then eventually they were like okay never mind. You know and so like we have been able to sort of keep just the title treatments on it. And because and this is sort of a you know to to bring it back to what you're asking like we have actually then now created this dynamic where now each story is a different thing fully you know in the way that maybe Ryan intended more so than everything else right. And I don't want to speak for Ryan and say that any of these were words were he were uttered to me but I'm just saying that like it's just fascinating because like they are supposed to include separate stories with one central character who's in in all of them but like so they should feel different as well right so but the more common production thing that's that's that that we have kept throughout all the the the Nathan Johnson Ryan Johnson collaborations is die cuts that has only gotten more and more complex over time peaking with with glass onion for certainly but like now they're everything has like a window into something else and Glass Onion certainly got multi-layered for sure but I mean it's crazy. But yeah Looper had a die cut Niz out had a die cut and Glass Onion and Wake Up Deadman both have die cuts as well.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

It's yeah the Glass Onion I keep coming back to that I just can't get over it. I mean I literally was just it's amazing how I don't know how you guys pulled it off but it's it's absolutely gorgeous. And I thought okay I'm in Tokyo it's a record store day exclusive I gotta buy this and as I was taking it out and looking at it I looked and I could see inside the slip case there was some writing on the inside of the spine and I'm like well what's this and it was what Bob Bill Murray says to her at the end of the movie that you can't hear. Oh really yeah and I could not believe it.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

So in the face of that is there a small packaging detail that fans might have missed or perhaps something you're most proud of oh God in these yeah you know we're so proud of everything that we've done with these that like it's kind of hard to to bury anything in the midst of them what I would say is that I uh In for this release in particular, or rather for all of them in particular, we had done these like special versions that were for a cast and crew. And, you know, we did a version for Knives Out that instead of having Benoit Blanc on the cover, we had Noah Seagan's character, Trooper Wagner, on the cover.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Um, and so we had this version that we sent to everyone as a gift. And then when it came to Glass Onion, I kind of wanted to do the same thing. So I also made a Noah Seagan, uh Daryl version of Glass Onion. So that's been that's been the like the little detail that I guess that I would share that like we we do make versions that are like not for everyone else. I still haven't done the the version of of that for for Wake Up Dead Man yet, so I kind of have to figure out what I'm gonna do for like a little casting crew gift for that because that would be really fun. Because there are some people who definitely have only the the Daryl version of Glass Onion.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

Wow, that's rare. Speaking of valuable, um well, we vinyl collectors are crazy for colored variations. Um that demand is real. So I have to I have to ask about the philosophy behind Eve's Apple, which last time I checked was not available on the website. Um, not sure if it was exclusive to the event at Amoeba, but thrilled to have that. How did how did that happen?

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Yeah, me, me and you know, well, the first for Knives Out, we did a listening party at this place called In Sheep's Clothing in LA. It was Ryan, Nathan, and a bunch of cast and crew came out and we did this listening party, we will talk, and then I think they did a signing at Amoeba, but the records weren't done, so we did these like test pressings. We did like a bulk amount of test pressings and made that a special gift. And then for Glass Onion, we did this like version that was only for like press boxes that went out in those like you know specialty press boxes that for for like all the you know for for hundreds of people. And we made this like super clear on clear on clear on clear record that's also super limited and collectible for that for that record. And so for this one, when we were talking about it, we were gonna be doing an amoeba signing. They were like, what can we do that's different or custom that's unique to this? And we had put so much work into the artwork that we couldn't really come up with anything that was like completely custom, like the glass onion thing. And so we're like, well, we'll just do a cool color vinyl. And me and Nathan bounced a bunch of ideas off of each other, and we did the settle on the Eaves Apple just because of you know how prominent it is. And and and by the time people had seen the movie, it would make more sense, right? Because the signing didn't happen until after the movie had been, you know, out in the public. So that was a big part of it, too. They didn't want to draw too much attention to any of that, and so yeah, there's there's a lot of things like that where you're like, oh, okay, well, that that needed to happen for this specific thing, and like I wish, you know, color vinyl is a thing that kind of stresses me out. Of all the things that we do here, it's like coming up with color vinyl just because like we kind of created a little bit of a beast by the by chasing color vinyl back when we were a baby label at Mondo and doing like really cool custom limited edition color vinyl. And like I don't mean as a collector, I don't really love or care about color vinyl. Like, if if I only version I can get is black vinyl, I'm totally happy. I just want the record, right? Yeah, um, and so like we still make it, but like I now some people, you know, they made like seven different versions, seven different colors, you know, whatever. That that to me is like exhausting. Like, I'll do a color vinyl, I like the special yeah. But like generally speaking, like I just want to have if people want color, like we'll make a color, but also we're gonna make black vinyl and and and that that'll be it. But for this one in particular, because glass onion was only because knives app was only on black and glass onion was only on clear, we didn't want to like make like a whole bunch of different versions or anything like that. So we were just like, oh, we'll keep it simple. And and this event was coming up, so we did it for that.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

I love the Eve's apple. It's gorgeous, subtle. So I absolutely love having that. I actually had people going, you know, can you get me one? Can you get me one? And I was standing in line on Vine and just looking at that huge box of them as people were checking in. I'm going, sorry, guys. Well, Mo, before we go, I have to tell you this story about one of your releases. When I started this podcast, I said this knives out podcast is adjacent to other podcasts that I've had in my life for a long time. I've hosted a podcast for about 12 years called Music of Bond, and it talk about the music on the James Bond franchise. My girlfriend is a massive Star Wars fan, and she has a podcast called Twin Sons, a Star Wars podcast. Oh, amazing. Those are parallel to the Knives Out World. So we go to conventions. She loves going to conventions, and dare I say, she's got a thing for Hayden Christensen as in Anakin Skywalker Earth Data. We've met him on so many occasions where it's a first name basis, and when he sees us, it's hugs and whatnot.

SPEAKER_01 48:43

Oh, that's really sweet.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

It he is the nicest guy, and I get why people just love him, and he couldn't be sweeter. So him and I always talk music. Well, it was a Friday, it was last spring. We were in Phoenix for Phoenix fan fusion, and literally we were walking in to take a photo with them, and I looked down, and you guys had just released the Star Wars Revenge of the Sith Lava vinyl. I held, I mean, you know, they're keeping these lines moving, but he sl he always stops and you know chats with us, gives us a hug and whatnot. Yeah. And I literally held up my finger to Darth Vader and said, one second. I bought it and I love that I, you know, told the chosen one, hang on one second. That was your vinyl lava release was more important to me. Later that day, she said, What were you doing? And I said, Look, I had to buy this this Newton release immediately. Like, I I'm sorry, dear, you know? And she looks at me and she goes, Well, did you buy me one? And I went, uh, uh, uh oh. And I went down and that thing sold out immediately.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Yeah, it was, it was uh, that was a stressful one. I mean, look, honestly, we've wanted to work on mainline Star Wars for forever, and we were very fortunate to get brought to the party uh towards the end of Mondo, and then back when we started Mutant to Lucasfilm Really Like Us, and so we were like, okay, we'll we'll we'll get started. And you know, I'm really friendly with the Chicanos, and Mick told me he was working on a Star Wars, and so we were like, this is a perfect start. We'll we'll we'll work on skeleton crew, and the studio really wanted us to do Ahsoka, and we were like, okay, yeah, maybe we'll do Ahsoka, and then we were obsessed with Andor, and we're like, maybe we'll do Andor. And so we kind of seemed like we were hanging out in the TV space. I saw the artist Matt Ferguson's artwork for uh Phantom Menace for the in 2024 for the the the the 25th anniversary of Phantom Menace, and we were like, oh my god. So we went to the went to Disney and we were like, hey, if you guys aren't planning on doing anything with this, we would love to do something for it. And they were like, We're already planning on doing something for it. And I was like, Okay, makes sense, that totally makes sense. And then like nothing ever happened, and this just tends to happen sometimes in the in the studio space. They'll just be like, Yeah, you know, like plans change, etc. But then like the next year, all of a sudden they were like, Hey, we're doing, you know, Revenge of the 20th. And I was like, hey, just checking in again, like maybe we can do something for this and for Vanta Menace, you know. And this time they were like, Yeah, absolutely, go right ahead. And so we were just, you know, right place, right time. We asked, I'm glad we asked again. And so we were super fortunate. I've I've wanted to work in in the series. I mean, obviously, even everyone, it's like the some of the most important film music of all time. And yeah, you know, we got we got to do Rogue One with Michael, and I've gotten to do a bunch of stuff with some of my heroes. I've gotten to work on a lot of John Williams things, you know, E.T. and Jaws and Jurassic Park. You know, I've gotten to work on some of my favorite albums of all time, like Back to the Future, and you know, things that were like inspirational to me as a child growing up. And I mean, it's it's Star Wars, man. It's the Star Wars uh mainline Star Wars, are you kidding me? John Williams Star Wars, and so you know, Sith, Sith happened, and there's aspirations to do um to do the other two. And and then if if the if all goes according to plan, maybe we'll we'll do more, you know. Like the the the the the the dream is to to do them all. All the main lines, but you know, we kind of have to choose our opportunities wisely and we have to work within the system that is, you know, fortunately makes room for us, fortunately makes room for us, but we don't really have infinite control over how it all works. So just know that like if you're wondering, like, hey, are those guys do those guys want to do more than just randomly Revenge of the Sith? Yes, we do. And we are we are aiming to find the right opportunities to do more, uh more Star Wars.

SPEAKER_02 52:40

Cannot wait. Well, Mo, thank you so much for your time. Uh we really appreciate it. The the releases, especially this last one, Wake Up Dead Man, is fantastic. Everyone, head over to Made by Mutants website and get some of these releases if you haven't already. They're absolutely beautiful. There's tons of great merch, and just what you guys are doing or what you guys are doing is just absolutely wonderful. So thank you again for your time, and we look forward to having you back in the future here within the donut hole.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

Yeah, thank you so much, John.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

And so, dear detectives, we close the case for now. Thank you for joining us within the donut hole. We hope our investigation sheds new light on Benoit Blanc's peculiar brilliance and the beloved mysteries crafted by Ryan Johnson. If you enjoyed today's inquiry, consider subscribing, leaving a review, and sharing the case with a fellow sleuth. Your support keeps the mystery alive and the conversation delightfully afoot. This has been Within the Donut Hole, a Benoit Blanc podcast.