The Meerkat Squad Podcast Episode 4: ADHD, Autism, and Travel

In episode 4 of The Meerkat Squad Podcast, Joris Lechene and Sheila Henson explore the experiences of ADHDers, Autistics, and AuDHDers in travel scenario. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Meerkat Squad where we talk about everything Aud. I'm Sheila Henson, an ADHD and Neurodiversity Coach and Educator, and I am here with Joris LeShayne, a decolonial educator and speaker.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Hi everyone, a pleasure to have you here again, or for the first time for those who are checking us out in the first for the first time. Today is our fourth episode of our podcast. We try to put one out one every month. So this should come out in April. And today our topic is going to be travels. And why travels? Well, because in our second episode we had um we had a conversation where I was talking about uh the experience of autism living abroad as an autistic person, and that there seems to be a surprisingly high um number of autistic people who live abroad. And even though it might seem counterintuitive because autistic people are usually quite reticent and not big fans of changes and not having their habits, etc., but there's the social aspect of things, which is that when you are a foreigner, wherever you are, uh there is much more grace that is afforded to you, and people tend to put on the fact that you're not from here, um, your quirky odd behavior, instead of uh people thinking, well, that person is uncanny and they're strange, they will just say, Oh, yeah, it's someone who comes from somewhere else. So they they will kind of be much more tolerant to your quirkiness, which is actually your autism, but uh you feel much more comfortable, and people tend to be much more patient. Uh so it's a situation that actually a lot of autistic people, without even realizing it, but they feel quite comfortable uh living abroad and because that that explains their quirks and their difference. Uh so when we talked about that uh in the second episode, I think that it resonated with a lot of people. Uh I received some DMs about it. Uh, so we thought we were going to expand on that. Um, expand on the experience of being somewhere that is unfamiliar and unusual for people with ADHD. And because both Sheila and I are in the middle of traveling, I am currently traveling. Sheila is in the middle of preparing for her travels, so we thought, well, let's talk about travels because that's all that's in our minds at the moment, anyway.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

Yeah, definitely. And this won't just be traveling abroad, this won't just be traveling big international travel, even though Doris and I do have the privilege to be able to do that, partially because of our work. Um, but also we travel, you know, to go visit our parents, or we go travel to, you know, you could stay at your partner's house for the night, or any kind of little travel, any situation where you're in a new novel environment is going to bring up these same issues, the sensory issues, the new novelty issues, the planning and remembering things, issues, being out of routines, all the things that we're gonna talk about today. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

So the uh things and also the uh potentially um yeah bad bad aspect or difficulties that we may face with uh neurodivergent people or DHD people um when we are traveling. And so, yeah, so we start with the benefits.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Yeah, let's talk about there. Are really benefits for ADHDers and autistics to travel. Um, one of the things is with ADHD, we obviously need novelty, right? That's part of what keeps us motivated, keeps us energized. But autistics also need novelty. Everybody needs some novelty in their lives, you know, to not get stale and to make sure that we're consistently pushing a little bit out of our comfort zone. If you saw our last episode, um in episode three, we talked a lot about the window of tolerance and expanding your window of tolerance. And travel is a good, hopefully positive way to expand your window of tolerance, bring you out of your comfort zone in a way that is your choice, that you have autonomy in doing that, um, and that hopefully there's some benefit to doing that. If you love trains and you're going to a train museum, maybe it's worth being around a crowd. If you, you know, absolutely love um fairies and you love fairy stories from Ireland, and now you're in Ireland and you get to hear those fairy stories from the people that in the culture that that came from, that's going to be maybe worth being outside and dealing with temperature changes and bugs and things like that because you get to explore your interests. So this is a way that we can, yeah, branch outside of our comfort zone and um and get benefit from that and make it a positive experience.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Absolutely. And if you are ODHD, so if you have both ADHD and autism, it is it is quite likely that traveling is going to be one of those situations where um the autism and the ADHD are going to be in conflict. So um they can become it they can usually, well, the way I experience it at least is that there's usually one side that takes over the other, and when I travel, I say that this is my ADHD side that is taking over because I tend to be uh much more um seeking novelty, much more open to new opportunities, to changing my schedule last minute, to changing my plans to go to a different city last minute, uh, which is something that I know that when I'm at home in London I would experience as something stressful. I would say immediately no, but when I'm traveling and I would say my travel is my ADHD dominant, my ADHD side is dominant, and I'm much more open to novelty, and I don't experience it as something stressful or as an attack necessarily. But that cannot, even though I wish I could be like this all year round, um, I'm also aware that you know there's a moment where after having had to shut up for so long, my autistic side is like, let me take over now. Uh so it can only last for so long. But I try to now make the most of it and try to adapt and have adapt my cyclicality. You know, I I have understood that I'm a cyclical person, and I think that it has to do with uh ODHD as well. I think that everyone is has cycles, and that unfortunately we live in a society that doesn't really value change, and we perceive change as something that you know something failed, something is wrong, because you're supposed to be always your optimal, um, productive, capitalist uh you know, pawn. Uh that's what we're supposed to be. Uh so yes, our society doesn't really deal well with changes and with cycles, uh, even you know, menstrual cycles for women, it's still very taboo, it's something that we don't really uh that we don't feel comfortable talking about, even though well, 50% of humanity experiences that. Um so yes, oh I went on a wild tangent there, but um yeah, so yeah, part of my cyclicality is I think I link it to my ODHD and the fact that yeah, I have phases where my ADHD is dominant and I will want to travel, I will explore things, I would be an adventurer, and then when I get home, I go into phases which I call my social winter, which is a moment where I don't really seek to connect with people as much, and I tend to be in my bubble, even though I do miss people. So that's also the uh paradoxical side of it is that meeting people and hanging out becomes very tiring, but at the same time, I really do enjoy that, so it's always like you know, it's getting me depressed that I don't get to see people, but seeing people would also get me depressed because that's tiring and I need to charge my batteries. So, anyway, that's that's my experience of traveling.

SPEAKER_03 8:16

Yeah, I think a lot of people will relate to the cycles thing, and maybe we can even do another episode where we dive into that more. Comment if you would like to hear more about that, because I know so many Audi HDs, ADHDers get diagnosed with bipolar or cyclophymia, which is like uh rapid cycling bipolar, and then they find they find out later that they're Audi HD because with ADHD we have cycles. Uh, like you said, there's also hormonal cycles, there's menstrual cycles that affect ADHD and autism more. And with Audi HD, those cycles of having more energy and less energy and more energy and less energy are gonna be so much more extreme because of the ADHD and the autism each trying to get their needs met and that sort of exhausting the other side. Um so I do think that that's important, and that is something to think about when you're planning travels. Like if you are a person who menstruates, then you can actually track like when your estrogen is going to be higher. Estrogen is a precursor to serotonin, dopamine. Um, and so you're going to feel probably more open, more social, more able to deal with changes. And when your estrogen's lower, then you might feel more like you want to go into a social winter. And um, so if you are a person who menstruates and you uh predictably, which not everyone does, um, then you can actually track that and plan your travels or other plans accordingly. And if you just sort of pay attention to yourself, there might be seasons where you feel more alive and energized. I'm pretty typical in that when the sun comes out, I my energy comes out, but I know lots of people that are the other way around where it's actually when it's cold, when it's darker, when it's rainy, that's when they feel energized and ready to go, and the sun sort of exhausts them. So just knowing yourself is really important. And traveling is kind of a way to get to know yourself in those ways and what feels good and what energizes you and what drains you.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

I remember many years ago I used to always think, ah, if only the people who know me in London they got to see this version of me. I'm so much cooler, I'm so much uh more fun and more open to life. But now I've come to accept both sides of myself, and I know that one wouldn't exist without the other. So I don't resent it being only phases and not being permanent because I understand that I need one uh to be to be fully the other as well. And I know that when you came last time you came to visit us or me, uh well last time you came to visit London, um you said something that blew my mind that I was uh very interested in, and we don't have that in the in our little plan for today. But could you say a little something about uh micro, what was it, micromania? Or is that oh hypomania? Hypomania, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Yeah, so talking about those cycles, there is something called hypomania. So mania going into like a manic episode is something that people with bipolar experience. Um, however, with ADHD and autism, we do see some people going, it's not, doesn't seem uncommon from my experience. I don't know what the research says. Um I probably should look into it more, but uh, in my experience, it's very common for ADHDers, autistics, and especially Audi HD years to experience periods of hypomania. So periods of time where they do maybe have more energy, maybe they're even sleeping a little bit less, maybe they're a little bit more um careless with their money, all of the sort of symptoms of mania, but to a point that's controllable, manageable, they're still self-aware, um, and so it wouldn't be necessarily diagnosable. Um, and so this is one of those things that people talk about when we're trying to distinguish, oh, is this bipolar or is this ADHD or Audi HD? Um and so, but I do see Audi HDers having this, yeah, hypomania and then sort of hypodepressive followed by a hypodepressive episode, which they might not even feel depressed, they just need recovery time, that rest and recovery, isolation, don't talk to me. You know, I have plenty of um autistic and Audi HD friends who will tell me, like, oh, I have a rule, I only see people once a week, or I only do an outing once a week, and like I'll call and be like, Hey, do you have time to hang out this week? And they're like, Oh, I'm sorry, I already have mine booked for this week, but we can book for next week, you know, just knowing yourself. Um, and of course, it's important to note if you have, if you do experience hypomania, you know, to have someone be checking you to the point of like, okay, is this at a point where it's really hurting you? And maybe you need to look into treatment. Um, maybe this is bipolar, something like that, you should be aware of. But for the most people, these hypomanias is just something that um that just is part of our cycles, it's part of our natural way of being, and we can accept that and put things in place. For example, I know when I get into sort of that state, and I don't experience it maybe to the point that some other people do, but certainly I'll go through periods where my energy is much higher and I I can get a little out of control with my impulsivity. And so I'll do things like have my friends block websites that I might purchase from, um, things like that to sort of like put controls in place because um I can start to feel it coming on. Um, and then when I'm like, okay, I think I'm okay now, and then they can you know un undo that.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

So with with hypomania as well, it may present itself as bipolar light, and um but there is an important distinction, and you were you explained to me that it might be relevant to be sure whether it's one or the other, uh, because the the coping mechanisms and the potential treatments are not the same. So it's important to make the difference, even though it may manifest as very similar symptoms.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Yeah, it's just especially just with the medication. That's what the reason why it's so important. I've just heard from so many people. Um, I was misdiagnosed as bipolar, I was put on uh bipolar medication, it ruined my life. Like that is a statement that I've heard countless times. And again, this is my experience, this isn't research-based, this isn't whatever, but it is something that is in the community that we see. And so that is something that you'll notice is if the medication isn't working, like it's probably the wrong diagnosis, right? Some some of the time. Um, sometimes it's just need a different type of medication. But um, I'm I I'm not a doctor. So uh but it can't that the wrong medication can be harmful. So we do want to be taking our time and being very cautious in diagnosing these things that have these types of medications.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Exactly. And just to be a hundred percent clear, it we are not saying that bipolar medication is is bad. Um, it can be a problem if you are misdiagnosed with bipolar, but that's not actually what you have, then then yes, it can ruin your life. But otherwise, yes, we're not, we don't claim to know better than than doctors. Uh, bipolar therapy.

SPEAKER_03 15:12

Bipolar medication for bipolar people saves lives. Like my brother's bipolar, uh, bipolar one, and uh thank God for his medication. He's very grateful for it. Uh, I think a lot of people are very grateful for their medications, allowing them to live like much happier lives. Um yeah, but it you know, we we just have to be careful about who's taking what. That's all. Anyway, I'm not a doctor, but be cautious. That's my point.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yes, and uh to yeah, to tie it all up, it is more likely the hypomania is more likely to manifest if you are or DHD because of those two aspects. You have an aspect of yourself that will seek novelty and adventure, and the other aspect that will try to get more of um of stability and predictability. So if you have the alternate alternating personalities, let's say, um, then yes, when one takes over, the other one tends to afterwards compensate, and so that may present as you changing changing moods. Uh, and yes, to when you came to visit in London, I was in what I described as my social winter. Um, because I had spent several months traveling, and there was kind of a backlash of my other other sides that was like, okay, well, now you need to chill, and that I experienced it as like feeling quite kind of mellow. It was the beginning of a of a depression, even though it was not a full-on depressive episode, but I did feel you know not my most positive and active. Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:52

Even though you were able to hang out with me like every day for like two weeks, which is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

You were the exception because with you, I don't feel like I have to mask. Uh, to the contrary, you explain me. Uh, you you help me make sense of myself. So hanging out with you was uh it didn't feel like a social effort. Uh so yeah, that's why.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

So touching. Um, but that's something to think about when you're thinking about travel. Who are you traveling with? And who are you traveling to go see? Is that person going to be reliable? Is that person going to be um aware and accommodating of your sensory needs, of your planning needs, of your adjustments that maybe you said, yeah, I totally want to go scuba diving tomorrow. And then the next day you're like, I can't. I my anxiety is super high. I can't, is that person gonna be like, what? But we plan, you know, or are they gonna be like, okay, I get it, or is there some way to get around this, or what can we do instead? You know, you want to make sure that if you're going to be putting yourself out of your comfort zone, it's gonna be with someone who's gonna be supportive of that because it is a stretch, you know, and it is a risk. Um, and so thinking about like how the people make you feel, not just do you like them, because there could be lots of people that you like who don't necessarily accommodate you in the way that you need, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Absolutely. You can have both types of friends, be your friends who tend to add chaos and you know, movement into your life, and friends to be more tend who tend to be more grounding and have a more grounding effect. And both uh, you know, they're both your friends, both types can be your friends, but you need to be aware of uh what kind of personality would you know are the best one for certain situations for the cycle of your mood or for when you're traveling, you may be seeking or needing one specific type of friend more than another, and it's absolutely okay. And being aware of that that can also uh avoid uh help you avoid situations where actually friendships can be damaged because you were in the wrong company at the wrong time, and there weren't necessarily anything wrong with your friend or wrong with you, but just at the time there might not be the kind of energy that you needed to travel with, and that has broken friendships that that's happened to me. So, yeah, something to be aware of.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Yeah. Oh, another benefit when I got to go visit Joris in London, and why I'm going back to London in a couple weeks, and Joris will not be there, and I am devastated. Um, but but when I was there, one thing that was I found was so great was that Joris was open to my interests. Like I was like, I like perfume, let's go check out perfume, and he was just like, Yeah, let's go. And I was like, What? Like we spent an hour in a perfume shop, even though that's not his interest. So that's another thing to be thinking about is like, is this person going to be enthusiastic about what I'm enthusiastic about? Because if like we're going to, you know, Hawaii and that hopefully you're not going to Hawaii.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

You're going to somewhere tropical and you're somewhere where the local uh indigenous people have not specifically asked to not visit because it's destroying their islands.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

Um so let's say you're going somewhere tropical and your plan is that you're like, I want to go look at the tide pools, and I'm just a science nerd, and I want to go see all the different fish and all the different critters around and all the different plants, and your friend is like, oh, I can't wait to go lay on the beach and get a tan. Like, that's not gonna be a good situation. It'll be fine if you say, Well, that's okay, I brought some good books so we can spend, you know, the second half of the day laying on the beach, and you're gonna come with me to the tide pools and you're gonna enjoy yourself, maybe not as much as me, but you will also enjoy yourself. That's great. Um, but do make sure that you have the same ideas about what's fun and what's exciting, because it could be such a yucking your yum if you're like, look at this cool anemone, and your friend's like, ew, like you know, you just don't want that situation.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Yeah. And I think so that like to overall the main lesson from this first segment, I would say, is that you need to be aware that you may have different needs, different interests, and a different personality, a different mood when you're traveling than when you are in your usual place where you live and work. So it's important to be aware of that to accommodate for both aspects of your life.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

And speaking of that, let's talk about self-advocacy because when you know that you need something, one of the things that can be difficult when you're traveling is self-advocating. So not only to the person that you're with that we've talked about, but let's say you speak a different language and you need to find a different accommodation. Like these things can be difficult. And so you might want to think ahead to what you might need. Do some translating, have a few scripts ready in a different language or in your own language. Maybe you needed to have a script ready in English or in whatever your main language is in order to be able to ask for what you need. Maybe at the hotel you need extra. Blankets because you tend to get super cold, or you need to ask for a different type of towel because the texture of that one makes you like schemish or like whatever, you know. So thinking about what you do at home, uh, you know, a few weeks before your trip, sort of paying attention to your rhythms, paying attention to the items that you use, all of those things, and think about what do I really need to bring with me? What am I what am I not going to be okay with not having? Um, and then how will I ask for what I need? How will I ask if I get sick? How will I ask, you know? Um, I when I I lived in Brazil for a while and it was like the first month I was there, I ended up with a sinus infection from spending way too much time in the ocean and the sun. Um, and having to, you know, and my Portuguese is horrendous. And so try having to advocate for like I need to go to a doctor and trying to explain to the doctor what that was was like a big to-do. And luckily I had I have family there that was able to help me through that. But if you don't have that, you know, planning for something like that, how would I talk to a doctor about an issue? Where would I go? You know, you could plan all these things ahead of time.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

When I think about advocacy, um specifically because, well, I am autistic, um DHD, but I the only time where I would say that I experienced my autism as a disability is at the airport. Getting to the airport, packing the whole this whole section is a moment where I am I'm becoming more and more aware. I I didn't realize at first, but now that I'm observing myself and being attentive and and aware of changes, but I realize that I'm much less functioning in those situations because I tend to be highly stressed. Um running late, that's the ADHD. Um I have missed many flights. Um, we talk about uh there's this thing called the ADHD tax, uh, which people talk about, and all everything that people with ADHD have to pay extra because of their ADHD, so because of missing flights, missing trains, and all of the things that incur extra costs or not paying on time, also missing deadlines for payments and stuff like that, which can be directly uh linked to their ADHD, but that causes them to have to spend more money than if they were neurotypical. Uh, so that's there's the ADHD side of things, but then that's when it combines, it compounds with my autism at airports where I'm more likely to be late, to be rushed, but also it's a time where it's very extremely um sensory, you know, stimulating, and there's so much to pay attention to. Uh, one thing that I that always, you know, I'm the each airport is different, but there never seems to be, there's always they they check your your boarding pass five times, sometimes six times, depending on like each different stage of the airport that you get to. And if you're anything like me, you will put it back in your pocket and you don't register where it is. So every time you have to like drop all of your bags because you're carrying stuff, you drop all of your bags, and you like pat yourself and try to find it, and then there's a moment of panic every time because it's like, oh, what if I dropped it? And where is my passport? I've lost my passport, and that happens six times in a row. And on top of that, you have to figure out the the right gate, you have to figure out if you're hungry, you do have time to eat, and all of those things. So for me, I know that airports is now a negative experience for me, and I will like you know, even if even when I arrive on time, but my anxiety levels would be heightened because of all of these things that I need to be aware of and try to juggle with.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. For that specific issue, by the way. My hack is I have a little um like a tiny crossbody bag that all it has is like basically like a wallet and a slot for your phone, and then and I wear that through the airport. So I have like my phone, my pass, my ID, everything like right there. And then I can, but it's small enough that when it's time to get on the plane, I tuck it into my personal item so it doesn't count as like a personal item. Um, and so you could use like a fanny pack or like another just like really small bag where everything is like on hand, because yeah, definitely related to all of that. Like, where did I put it?

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Around your neck is a good really good, yeah, it's a really good tip. I usually I always carry a fanny pack, but in that specific situation, because I'm usually I have backpacks and stuff like that, so that still requires me to drop everything and get it out of my trousers, and you know, so it's mine's just a slide pocket, it's just that's good. Yeah, the way to do it. Yeah, too. So we're talking about self-advocacy, I would say that airports is the also time where I find myself having to disclose that I'm autistic. Uh I never have to do that, uh, and I know it's a great privilege, uh, but I never feel the need to do that uh anywhere else. But when I'm at the airport, when I'm like, I have found myself in situations where I needed assistance. Like, you know, I was just completely lost, and or you know, in a situation that is where it which was just overwhelming, and I found myself having to say, Oh, by the way, I'm autistic, I'm lost right now, I don't know what's going on, I don't know where I'm supposed to go, I don't know what you want from me, I don't know what is wrong. Um, can you help me? So, and that is luckily, in a sense, the only situation where that has ever been a necessity for me to disclose that. Um, but yes, definitely that it it affects a lot of things.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Yeah, I don't know if you're familiar with the um the sunflower, I think it's a sunflower, right? Where you wear a sunflower and that shows that you're disabled. Um and uh then people give you like extra help um at the airport specifically and like or train stations or things like that. Um and that I know a lot of people have gotten a lot of help from that just because wearing that, they feel like they have a little bit more allowance to struggle, you know, like that people aren't going to freak out or think like that they're a terrorist or something, you know. It's like, oh, I oh, this person's disabled. So like having the sunflower lanyard. Um, I had a friend who for a while wore a lanyard that just said, I am autistic, and it had my name as like their like person to call. Like if I'm struggling, call Sheila. And uh so like you can have things like that that make it like a little bit more obvious. I know some physically disabled people carry a cane, even though they don't usually need a cane, because it just shows very clearly, like, hey, I am disabled. Please don't push into me, don't knock into me. Like I, you know, a lot of people with EDS um doing things like that. And then if you need to use like one of those little cars, you know, people will be like, you're too young for that, or blah blah blah, you know, like why are you using like one of these, you know, why are you getting assistance? But if you have your cane, they're like, Oh, okay, like okay. So sometimes those like physical signs can be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Um absolutely, yes. We have, yeah, in the UK, and yeah, it's international, but the the sunflower lanyard, I think it's for all uh invisible disabilities, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Um and this is if I would only wear it at the airport if I had it, but because I don't have a formal NHS diagnosis of autism in the UK, I don't know. I need to look into it actually, but I don't know if I am entitled to it without uh official diagnosis. And pros and cons of getting a diagnosis. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

Yeah, ADHD should still be. I mean, in the US it's it's uh recognized under the Americans with Disabilities Act. I would be surprised if it wasn't the same there.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

All right, yeah. Well, in that case, yes, I would I would get it through my ADHD then. Well, thanks for the tip. And uh for the viewers, I hope that is useful for you too.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

Yeah, and that's just it in general a tip. Um you know, ADHD, even though socially it's not seen as much of a disability, um, it is legally a disability. And so bus passes, national park passes, different things like that can be acquired with ADHD. You can get accommodations through an ADHD diagnosis. Um, again, the social understanding and sympathy that you're gonna get might be different than autism. But for those who are uncomfortable getting an autism diagnosis, um, you know, like a formal one, I know it's always good to at least like talk to a therapist, talk to mental health professionals. Um, but I know a lot of people who've had their psychiatrists, their therapist say you're autistic, but they're like, okay, but I don't want to go get that. I don't put that on my record, you know, da-da-da. Um and so you can just use the ADHD for most of the things that that you would need um the autism diagnosis for.

unknown 30:54

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Right, yes. And and that's the yeah, the moment I think to acknowledge that not everyone has the same level of comfort with the idea of disability. I know that some people, you know, they might be ready to accept that they might be ODHD, uh, but perceiving themselves as disabled is still a bridge too far for them. Uh, and I hope that you know this is a journey that eventually people get more comfortable uh with. Because why do we reject the idea of disability? It's because of stigma, it's because of the way that society is built and make presents disabled people as lesser than, um, less efficient, less productive, less everything. So hopefully we can change the culture a little bit. Hopefully, the culture is changing and people get more comfortable with the idea of disability. On the topic of travel, it's also important to be ready and acknowledge that change a change of environment can make you go from not being disabled to being disabled. Traveling, changes in routine, in environments, that can be disabling events, right? And even if it's temporarily, but that can this the environment can become disabling even if you are not or you don't perceive yourself as disabled in general.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

Yes, and like our next like subtopic is planning. And I have to say, like, I'm always struggling with if I can call myself physically disabled because I have ADHD. And so, of course, the genetics we all know about the crossover, huge crossover between hypermobility, hypermobile EDS, um, MCAS and other histamine issues, POTS and dysautonomia, and then um hormonal issues, PCOS, like things like that, and then chronic migraines, right? So I have like a little bit of all of it, but um it it how bad it is, well, the migraines are pretty bad consistently, but I have medication, you know? But I'm as I'm planning for this trip, you know, I'm always like, am I physically disabled? Because I'm not fully, you know, HEDS like diagnosed, but I am hypermobility spectrum disorder diagnosed. I'm not like I have my allergist told me I have MCAS, but it's not a technical diagnosis. Is it really MCAS? Because I know some people who like can't even eat anything and they have MCAS. I know people who my mom has EDS and can like barely walk, you know, so like I'm like, it's not as bad as everybody else. But then when I'm trying to plan for this trip and my backpack is full of medications, my backpack is completely full of medications and uh health things, you know, tiger bomb patches, and uh, do I need to bring like a belt for my back? And do I need to like I have to bring like a tennis ball so I can like work out my fascia on the plane so that I don't have horrible pain and I have to get this special neck pillow and like my I'm trying to pack light and I can't because my entire suitcase is full of accommodations for my body. And so um, and I know that a lot of Audi HDers are in a similar situation, and it just made me really be like, oh okay, I'm disabled. Also, like just the amount of money that I spent on these things, the medications and the treatments and the you know, whatever. So, um, and it's like, okay, I have to make sure that I get these massages and these things before I go and da-da-da. So um see my physical therapist extra and all of these things. So when you're planning to travel, you might feel embarrassed about how much you have to accommodate for yourself. You might feel embarrassed about the sort of things that you need to bring. I'm doing a class on uh ADHD autism and travel. Doris might join me. I have some videos I'll show with different items that people use, like on a long flight or a long train ride where like a sling for your feet or like a something for your feet to sit up, um, different neck supports, different back supports, different things. And you might feel, or like even having a little pocket in the front in front of you, so you don't have to bend down to get your stuff, you know, while you're in the middle of a flight or a train ride. And so um, you might feel embarrassed to have these like very visible acknowledgements that you need something extra, especially with all these like influencer girls doing like face masks on the plane and like just being extra for the sake of being extra, and you're like, that's I'm I really need this, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Um, and so the other extreme, there's the road dogging trend. I don't know if you you've heard of it, like road dogging flights and you know, not staring in the and so yeah, that's if you're neurodivergent. I mean, even if you're not neurodivergent, that's silly, but also yeah, don't do that.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

Yeah, and I've seen like airport maxing where it's like I'm gonna try to get to the gate right when people are boarding. I do not recommend that for us, okay? I really don't. I go the opposite way. I'll show up two and a half hours early with my laptop having a plan of something to do. So I hate waiting. Waiting. I have ADHD, I'm the most impatient human on the planet. Um, dang it, I keep hitting my mic. Um I have ADHD, I'm the most impatient person on the planet. But when I'm going to the airport, I will have a plan of something I'm going to be working on on my computer so that it feels useful. I go there having not eaten so that I can stop and enjoy a meal at the airport. I know it's expensive. I don't care. It's much worth it. It's very worth it to me to be able to have the peace of mind and like get my snacks and like do all those things there because it's worth it for me to have the peace of mind that I'm there as early as I possibly need to be, no matter what happens. And um, and I have things to do. I'm not gonna be bored, I'm gonna be okay. You know, both of those things need to be in place for me to feel okay. And so um, yeah, I'm not an airport maxer. I'm an airport minimizer. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Well, you've just made me realize that I've been airport maxing my entire adult life. Um, but I also wouldn't recommend and don't do it on purpose, and I would very much like to not have to do that all the time, but unfortunately, that is the nature of uh my ADHD and autism, our DHD. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Yeah, and some of the I've gotten really good at planning, like I'm already packing for my trip two weeks in advance. What were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Yes, yes, that is uh usually my uh the phase that you described before we started recording, what all of the things that you're thinking about that usually happens to me um maybe six hours before my flight. So I tend to not sleep uh before because I just take a lot of time to pack, even though I do it all the time and uh I know what I need, but there's there's so many processes and routines and stuff that need to fall into place that I end up yeah most of the time not sleeping, and so that adds also to the stress of rushing to the airport usually. Um, but on the topic of um well, disclosing and advocacy and traveling, I know that we might be um you know, we we just talked about accepting and acknowledging that we might have different needs in times of travel, and it's already a work in itself to accept that about ourselves, but then we also have to think about potentially disclosing or not disclosing in the context of traveling because if you apply for visas, for instance, um, there's usually questions related to do you have mental health issues, do you have problems that we may want to know about? And then the question is, you know, does that is that relevant? Is my ADHD autism or DHD is that relevant? Do I mention it? Do I not mention it? Is it gonna make it harder for me to travel?

SPEAKER_03 38:46

I think that there's a lot of fear-mongering online about like people, if you if you say that you're autistic, especially, like then people won't let you into a country and da-da-da. That hasn't been my experience when I talk to people, and I know lots of people who are autistic who've immigrated to places like Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, etc. Like that, where there is that um, I know that there is a caution in places where there's universal health care that, oh, if you're going to be like a burden to the system, like unfortunately, that's sort of the mentality that the governments can have. However, I mean, I've even talked to people whose children have like profound medical needs and they were still allowed. Um, it's a matter of, I think there's probably my uh assumption is, and other people might know more about this, put it in the comments if you do, is that there's going to be some sort of thought process that goes on about like, are you going to be able to take care of your needs or your children's needs, or is that going to be a huge um cost to the to the universal healthcare system? Um in the United States, because we don't have universal healthcare, even though thank goodness I'm in Oregon and we have some version of that, um, but most of the United States doesn't. And so um I think it's more of they want you to disclose and they could, if they maybe if they find like my theory is like if they find another reason why they don't want you to come in, they could maybe use that. That would be my theory, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Well, yeah, in the specific case of the US, I still because I nearly I had a whole situation at the airport, and I had to book a different flight because I was refused boarding, but uh yeah, that's uh it's not even related to my DHD this time. So uh, but yes, I had to book a different flight because I was flying to Toronto from Toronto to Brazil, and uh in between those two places, there's this country called the the United States, and it was quite tricky to find flights that wouldn't go via the United States because of political reasons. I do not feel comfortable as a you know black queer person, as also someone with a platform who's been quite critical of uh fascism. Um, I do not feel comfortable having to be stopped and interviewed by uh border control in the US, by ICE or whoever's there, and also because you have to pay for a visa, even if you're only transferring, you're not leaving the airport, but you still need to pay for a visa, which was like$179, I think, this time. So, yeah, that's a lot of money. And but yeah, I still went through the qu questionnaire and like the the form, and they do ask, you know, do you have history of mental health and do you have mental health issues? So there's a whole other conversation around, you know, is does the ADHD neurodivergence and mental health, you know, that's not the same thing, but one affects the other inevitably. And you know, there's there might be the way that you perceive it, but the US government might have a different interpretation of what falls within mental health issues or not. Um, and I would not trust RFK Jr. to uh be very understanding and and and yeah, knowledgeable, especially around autism. So anyway, yes, that would have been that would have been a problem for me uh as a neurodivergent person. That is something that I would not want to disclose to the government of the United States specifically.

SPEAKER_03 42:21

Yeah, it makes sense. Um and so uh yeah, I mean, we have to make those choices, and it's good to research ahead of time, you know what likely happens when you do disclose in this particular country. Just make sure that you're being aware of that. Also, make sure that you're aware of your medications and if they are allowed in that country. There are some countries, I know there's some countries in Asia where all stimulants are banned. Um, my sister had to travel and just go off of her Adderall. Um, and so her and her doctor planned ahead of time for her to taper off the Adderall, or sometimes to take a different medication, like a non-stimulant extra terra or something like that, um, either short term or long term. Um, but you'll want to take time, you don't want to show up in a new country and suddenly not have your medication and be going through any kind of like withdrawals or confusion. Um, so you want to plan for that ahead of time. There might be um alternatives, either like natural herbal alternatives or medication alternatives, or you just are like, you know what, I don't actually need my Adderall on vacation, but I do want to taper off slowly before I leave so that it doesn't feel like it's all hitting me at once. Um pay attention to that. Uh also like even CBD that we, you know, in the United States, it's you can buy it in a grocery store, it's a hemp product, but it's not gonna get you high or anything. Um but people use that for pain management. Be aware of that. Even traveling between states. Um, I yeah, in Oregon I had there was a I had these CBD gummies and I flew to Florida, and as soon as I got off the plane, it was like any hemp products will be like a felony or something like that. And I was just like, ah, you know, there's no marijuana. In it, there's no THC in it, but it was just something I used for my migraines. Um, and it had CBD in it, and I just immediately went to the bathroom and like tossed it in the garbage and like went back out because there were you know the drug dogs everywhere. And I was like, Am I gonna get a felony for CBD? Something that I bought at the grocery store? Like, this is wild. Um, so research before you go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

I had the same a similar experience when I was flying from Peru to um well back to Europe via via the Dominican Republic, because in Peru and also in Chile and in Colombia and in Ecuador, uh, it is part of the culture to have uh coca leaves. Uh coca as in Coca-Cola, but also as in cocaine, right? And um, but it's you you can buy it at the supermarket, and the psychoactive element is as strong as what you will find in tea or coffee, right? So the leaf itself, it's it's it's it's just like a sort of tea, right? So it's absolutely innocuous. But because of demonization and war on drugs and cultural misunderstanding and racism, uh, many countries that are not South American they really demonize um anything related to coca, even if it's not you're not traveling with with powder, with cocaine, but it's still um yeah, very much uh demonized. And I I had bought some and my plan was to bring back bring some back home, give to I was bringing back coffee as well because I know I have friends who really like coffee, and I would the the plan was oh, I have a bag of coffee for you and some coca leaves for you to try, but then I realized oh I might end up in prison for that at the airport, so maybe not. Um I had already bought it, so I had to get rid of it.

SPEAKER_03 45:43

With ADHD, stop, think, do your research, every item. Just stop and think for a second. Yeah, continue.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

Yeah, and on this topic, I'll still on the topic of medication. I think that this is also something to be aware of when you travel and if you travel across time zones, because that changes that changes your routine as well. So the traveling, being in a different place, that changes a lot of your routines, but just moving across time zones that also requires you that requires some planning and being careful. Okay, if if you have to take a specific medication at a specific time, what does that look like when you're on the plane? And are you and what time does that mean you'll have to take it when you're in your destination?

SPEAKER_03 46:31

Exactly. Like when I'm going to from Oregon to London, and so that's an eight-hour difference. So I have it in my calendar already. It says 1 a.m. take vivance, and I'll be on the plane. Um, and I don't even know what time zone I'll be in at that moment, but my phone, because it'll be in airplane mode, will still be in Pacific time, and so I have an alarm at 1 a.m. to take my viance so that I can immediately get on the on to into the right circadian rhythm. Also, I know that melatonin can help for a lot of people to do that. That's really what it's best used for. You're not supposed to take melatonin all the time. Um, but you know, using it on the plane when it would be time to sleep where you're going to use that to try to sleep and to plan out those time zones. Um, another thing with medications is to make sure that you bring extra because you might not be able to get the medication that you're on in a different country. Um they might it might not exist or it might just require you to see a doctor, and then it's hard to get into a doctor. I did the last time I was in London, I miscalculated somehow my birth control pills. And when I went into a pharmacy, they were like, um, we don't even have that in this country. Your hormone levels are so high that you take it doesn't even exist. Um we could give you because I take it for health reasons. Um and so like, and I was like, oh yes, well, that's what I need in order to not be in horrible pain. Uh and I like so and it took forever. I was like, is there any way I could see a doctor? It was like, no, it's gonna be, you know, a month to see a doctor. And I was just like, oh, I don't, okay, that's I'll be gone. Um so I ended up, I was going to Ireland anyway, and I like found cramp bark in Ireland to like I had to do it herbally because it just did not exist. Um and so if anyone doesn't know about cramp bark, learn about cramp bark anyway. So um, but lifesaver. Um but they didn't even have cramp bark in London, so anywhere that I could find. So there was just uh know what you have, bring extra in case your flight gets delayed, in case something happens. You know, I mean when the pandemic hit my friend was visiting, he's still here, it's been six years. Um you never know where you're gonna get stuck somewhere. Um and so you know, take extra, extra medication, if especially if it's something that you know you might not be able to get somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

And again, double check that there's no that it's allowed in the country that you're going to. Some countries may allow certain substances, but you need to have uh proof of uh um, yes, um I'll forget the name. What's the word for for that?

SPEAKER_03 49:03

Um your prescription?

SPEAKER_01 49:05

Yeah, medication. A prescription, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 49:07

Yes, yeah. Yeah, and you know, they say to have all of your medications in their original bottles and to have a note from your doctor, ideally. I've never needed that. No one's ever checked my medication. I've flown to yeah, I mean, at least six different countries, and that's never been something that they checked. But apparently that is something that can happen, and it's just better safe than sorry, because if they confiscate your medication, you're gonna be in trouble. So actually, this time that I'm traveling, because now I know that I didn't really know that before. I was just sort of traveling with everything in my case. Um, anything that's like a scheduled, you know, like my viance or things that I am worried about people not having, um, I'm it's gonna they're gonna be in their original bottle, and then I can just pour it into the my travel case, my you know, medication case when I get there. Um, because I don't I don't want trouble, and I'm gonna have my doctor just write a note and um and have all those prescriptions handy.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

So yeah. And and yeah, and to go back to sort of what we were saying before, um we might of course ODHD, autism, ADHD, they are neurological, neuro, neurological differences, right, and and identities and experiences and political identities, all of that. But um, but it's important to be aware that they will have they will also affect our body, the way our body moves, the way our body works, and so I I it might be difficult to make that connection, but I hope that we can be more and more comfortable understanding that okay, I'm not just autistic in my head, in my brain, it's my body is autistic, and that means that I may need accommodations that are more than just you know that that can be physical, and that all of the medications that I'm on, even if it's not directly connected to autism but or ADHD, but it's still it's a part of of the package that your body is, and so it's important to take that into consideration and to accept it. The acceptance is a difficult part, I would say. So yeah, it's important to keep that in mind.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

Yeah, I think it's really important. The more that we learn about ADHD and autism, the more that we realize that it is a full body thing. Um and it's gonna affect your nervous system, it's going to affect your, you know, it can even affect it can affect your joints, it can affect your eyeballs, it can affect so many things. Uh take my ADHD body basics class if you want to learn more about that. But it really uh is a full-body thing, and um and we need to account for that. We also need to account that we have capacity changes. Our body's capacity changes, our minds' capacity changes, our emotions capacity changes. And so as you're planning for any kind of trip, make a plan B. As you're planning for any kind of trip, think about plan B is of what you're gonna eat. I know a lot of us have sensory issues with food or other food issues, um, just sensitivities with food. Make sure that you, you know, if you plan, I'm gonna go to this restaurant, I'm gonna eat this thing. Okay, what if the restaurant's closed for the day? What if they stop serving that, you know, food that does happen? Make sure that you have something else. I always just keep like protein bars and different things in my bag for me. Little safe snacks, always have like a bag of nuts, something like that. Um, so whatever your safe things are, make sure that you have those around and that you always have a plan B because a lot of the time, especially with autism, if the plan, if there's a plan and it's set and it goes awry, your brain can kind of go. Um, yeah, you can get discombobulated. And so, but if you have, oh, we I already planned for this, here's plan B. It makes me think of like when I was a teacher and a kid would say, you know, can I call my mom and see if she'll come pick me up? And I would be like, Yes, we can call her, but what are you, how are you going to react if she says yes? How are you going to react if she says no? So in case they because they probably had some expectation in their head, and so planning for like eat with either way. So what like if you say, Oh, I'm gonna, um, if I get to the Airbnb and the keys are where they're supposed to be, hopefully you're using hotels, not Airbnb, but sometimes all the hotels are booked because you had to book last minute. Anyway, so then you're um, you know, and the key the keys are there, this is what I'll do. I'll go into my Airbnb. If I get to the Airbnb and the keys are not where they're supposed to be, I already have the person's phone number in plugged into my phone and I can call them immediately. I already have that plan B. And that's why I plan and prep and pack weeks ahead of time so that I can have all of these things. And I also have what if my phone falls in the river? So I have all of my plans in a P in a little. I'll show you actually.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

Oh, in a paper format. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

So I bought this one for this trip, a little, I'll always have like a little one for each trip, and that will have it's gonna have every single confirmation code, every single flight time, the address to every single place that I'm going, restaurants that I want to eat at, potential options for restaurants, the different places to stay if somehow my accommodation goes awry. All of that's gonna be in here and in my phone.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Oh wow, okay, right.

SPEAKER_03 54:18

I know I'm not the autistic one, but I have learned because I have spent nights in airports before. I have gotten to places and my accommodation was no longer available because something went wrong. I have gotten, I you know, I have um, yeah, I uh one time I slept at an airport in Utah, and the janitor was so nice he had a little pullout cot in a closet and he let me sleep in there, and then he went and went and woke me up in the morning.

SPEAKER_04 54:47

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 54:48

I still am so like grateful. Um, so I've made every mistake and I was raised by my both my one of my grandpa was a pilot, my grandmother was a flight attendant, my other grandfather was a flight engineer, my uncle's a pilot, my aunt's a flight attendant. I was raised by travelers, and so as soon as I started to take it seriously, and some of them are autistic for sure, and as soon as I started to take it seriously, I started paying attention to their tips and tricks and and learning all those things, which is what I'm gonna share with you in my class. Join me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

Right, and uh, if you do not have the capacity or the experience of being as dedicated as Sheila, um, there are certain things to still be worried, be careful of uh battery on your phone, make sure that you have you know a power bank if you're traveling, uh travel with a power bank, make sure that you have the correct plugs as well. Because if you change country, it might be a different uh you might need require specific plugs. So try to have that, or try to have one of those universal plugs uh as well, but also a power bank that's also always very important. And also prepare it if your battery is full on your phone, but what if you don't have internet? Because we this is something that is so it's so tied to our phone that we don't even we've lost the the habit of even thinking, well, what if there's no internet on my phone? What if so try to look for plans, see if you're if your uh network provider make sure that you know it's it's still available wherever you're going. Um see if they have some packages that you can purchase of of data available, or look at eSIMs and stuff like that. But also, and if if you don't have internet, make sure that even if you still use your phone, but that you have you take screenshots of everything. That's that's what I usually do. I take screenshots of my boarding passes, I take screenshots of the address of the place I'm gonna be staying. So I know it's not likely that my battery runs out on my phone because I always carry a power bank with me, but it can it has happened that I was without internet and without expecting to not be with internet, and I still knew where to go. Of course, yeah, if you can go the extra mile of writing it down like Sheila, that's that's the the ideal. But realistically, I don't think I'm gonna start doing that anymore. I did that back.

SPEAKER_03 57:17

It's because I I had my phone stolen at a coffee shop once, and so that's uh again, everything I do is because I've done it wrong first. So, and yeah, it's realistically, I love the idea of just being realistic, and if you're not gonna do that, that's great. But even having, you know, something the number to the person that you have, the Airbnb or something like that, you know, like the number to the hotel, some things like that, a few things written down can be helpful. Um, another thing is that you can download maps. So on Google Maps, you can choose uh an area that you're going to be, and you can download that. So then even if you don't have internet, you can still use Google Maps, which is gonna be really it was very helpful when I was driving around the middle of Ireland and there's definitely no internet service and these weird little roads um really saved me there. So highly recommend you do things like that. And yeah, the screenshots, I also, if you're ADHD, if you don't have the autism especially, make a folder in your phone and put all those screenshots into that folder because if you're like me, you have by the time you take that screenshot and then you've already got 5,000 other things in your phone, probably screenshots of things you'll never look at. So make a folder for it. You know, this trip this year, that's the folder with all your stuff in it. Um, yeah, all of those things are gonna help. And also leave behind some stuff with your who someone at home. So your passport number, your um, you know, uh a copy of your driver, like a picture of your driver's license. Like even if you make that folder, share it with somebody so that if your phone, you lose your phone, you can at least call somebody and get all of that information through somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

Yeah, yeah, that's a really, really good tip. Yeah, if you can upload it onto a cloud and if it's safe for you, because we know within the surveillance society that it will be coming, some of us may not feel safe with those things. But if you have a cloud service that you're comfortable with, then that's a really good idea to upload um things um if yeah, if you can, if it's safe.

SPEAKER_03 59:23

Another thing that will save you money in the long run and can help with sensory issues is to instead of buying like travel sizes of things, buy um empty travel size containers and then fill it with the products that you're used to using, the one that you have been using, to bring it along. Because if you tend to be allergic to shampoos conditions, which I know with autism especially, mut many more like of these like allergies or or sensitivities, um, and then the sensory, like you might the smell of the shampoo at the hotel might be absolutely horrible, or the smell of your mom's shampoo if you're at your mom's house, like might be terrible. And so bringing your own products, and if you just have those reusable containers that you can wash out that is going to be more sustainable and save you money in the long run, I have a lovely little collection of them that I just keep in my suitcase. So whenever I am ready to travel, I pull out my suitcase and all those things are already in there, ready for me to fill up.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

Right, and yeah, and on the topic of hygiene as well, I think that it's um it's relevant to think about that and maybe carry a flannel with you if you're gonna be traveling, so that you can like have a like an almost dry shower or something like that, and also knowing that you might find yourself in places where you know this is not your bathroom, this is not your bed, this is not your bed sheet, so you might feel a certain way about or it might affect your ability to maintain the hygiene that you usually have or that you need, um, so that might affect that as well. If if you don't feel comfortable in this certain bathroom, in the specific bathroom that is available to you, then yeah, that might be something to take into consideration and try to mitigate the effects by carrying with you equipment that enables you to take care of your body hygiene uh in any or all circumstances.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:23

Yeah, it one that I recommend that I have clients that use is um Honeypot makes a sensitive skin wipe. They have a bunch of different wipes and things, but their sensitive skin one is good for face and it's pH balanced, so you can use it in your nether regions, uh regardless of what kind you have. And um, and so you can use it literally for every part of your body, and you can get them in a pack or like individual packets that you can just keep in your purse or in your pocket. So, like, even if you're gonna have if you have a 24-hour flight like I had once, you know, it's 24 hours of flying to get to Brazil, then like there's a I need a couple baths in that amount of time. So, like keeping those in my pocket so I can discreetly walk to the bathroom and you know do what I need to do. So, um, yeah, it's a good good tip.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

Yeah, and yeah, and again, be prepared to changes, be prepared to potentially feel uncomfortable in situations, to have your senses and sensory needs and issues uh out of balance. Um, that's usually, you know, if you'll travel, hopefully that's something that you're aware of and that you seek, but you might have to travel for reasons that are, you know, against your will, or you know, and those so those are the things to take into consideration to not add to the stress that traveling might already be causing you.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:45

Yeah, I know I have a lot of clients that are sort of forced to travel for work and have to go to these conferences or things in different places, and they're like, I don't want to be here, I don't enjoy this, I don't, I'm not a travel person. And so just having, you know, a lot of these little things that we've talked about that can add a little bit of comfort, a little bit of sameness, a little bit of joy, hopefully, you know, um, can make a big difference. So hopefully you can actually enjoy travel and get the benefits because, like we were talking about, there really are benefits, and I've heard the claims that it can help prevent burnout. I've heard claims that um it can help, you know, and I I just believe that like having this novelty, even for uh, you know, the most uh same-centered autistic person, like still needs novelty in their life. And so um, like I think I do want to encourage people to do traveling. And that could be, you know, when I was younger, my parents couldn't afford for us to travel. And so it was always the same vacations where we would take a big tent that fit the whole family and we would drive to some beach thing and pay ten dollars for a beach spot and spend a week there, and that was our travel, and and we all loved it, you know. Like there's a lot of different ways to do to do budget travel. I the way that I do it is I have a lot of friends in different places and I go and stay with them, which is what I'm doing right now. Um, and so if you know, if you can figure out your ways of doing it and feeling remembering that people like visitors, you know, most people like visitors, and I think sometimes we'll we will not ask, like, hey, can I come stay with you? Because we think that could be a burdensome, but actually maybe they're really wanting that. And I've learned that from my Brazilian family who will just be like, We're coming for Christmas, we'll be there for a month, and we're like, okay. And I love that, you know, like my mom's always like, ah, clean, quick, but like otherwise, we really love that. So um, make sure that you're actually asking and and taking those opportunities where you can find them.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:36

Yeah, I always say I have like a there are certain aspects of my culture that kind of conflict with my autism, and because I'm I'm from the Caribbean and over there, it's like very like normal and traditional that you if you happen to be in the area where you know someone, you just show up at their place and you're like, hey, how are you doing? Like, you know, I just came to to check in and catch up with you. Uh you know, unprompted and uh unexpected, and I love the idea of people feeling comfortable enough to do that to me. The idea that you know my house or wherever I am is something that people want to stop by and hang out with me. But my autism is like, no, I don't really plans, I'm not available, no, I need to get the house ready and all that. So, you know, it's something that uh I'll have to I'll have to figure out when eventually I move back, um hopefully soon. Uh but yeah, so yeah, the the openness to new new adventures, new situations. Uh again, that can vary depending on your neurotype, and also depending on the time of the day, the year, your mood, your your ability, your your spoons, and and all of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:51

Yeah. Thanks, y'all. I hope that we hear in the comments tell us about your travel, tell us about your best travel tips. Um, I hope you come to my class so that you. Can also share because that there's gonna be like a big just like pot. We can make like a document where everybody puts their best travel tips for different things, and um, I think that that is so fun. Obviously, I'm like going down that rabbit hole right now, and I'm hyper fixated on it as I go and get ready for my trip. Um, and if you're gonna be in London uh in the first few weeks of April, let me know because I Doris won't be there, so you you gotta so I need someone to hang out with. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:29

And uh yeah, so yeah, to recap maybe the this episode, I think that yeah, thinking about traveling, uh that can be that causes changes, that can and cause unpredictability, surprises, good or bad. Um, so that can be an extra burden that we need to prepare for. But also, even if you are autistic dominant and you like your routine, but there can be situations where actually changing your environment, changing your routines can be beneficial. Even if you don't, this is not necessarily what you're inclined to do in situations of stress, but it has, as Sheila mentioned, it has avoided burnout to people, to myself, I can uh I can testify. Um so you may not know it, but travels may have benefits uh that you didn't suspect. So if you have the ability to do it, and of course, you know, adapt to your to your budget and and what is available to you and to your body. Uh, but if you have the opportunity, I would say give it a try, it might be surprisingly uh positive.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:39

Yes. Um yeah, it can increase productivity. And I love someone said inspiration, and that is how I feel when I travel. I just always feel more inspired. I I become more artistic and I become um just more excited about the world and about life, and more um positive. So yeah, I hope that you can all enjoy that. Uh before we end, I'm gonna give Joris the opportunity because I'd like to hear if anyone wants to stick around and hear Joris uh tell the story of why you got denied the plane.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:12

Oh dear, yeah. Uh that was yeah, so I I still don't really know, I don't understand what happened, but basically, so there were two things. So there's still the ADHD involved and the autism involved that I'm going to explain. I my flight was departing from a specific building of the terminal. It was not part of the main terminal, it was a satellite in the middle of the field. It's they call that in-field um departure hall or something like that. To get to that part of the terminal, you need to go on a shuttle. Uh, you need to go on a bus that is that is free. But the problem, the architecture, the design of the terminal makes it so that it was numbered just like any other gates. So you had no way to know that you're not actually boarding, you're not at the gates to board the plane, you are at a gate to get onto a shuttle that will take you to the to the the the the actual terminal building that you're departing from. And I did receive an email that was telling me, are you gonna be on the on a you're gonna have to get on the on the shuttle? So I was aware of that, and it did say you need to allow for like an extra 20 minutes, which I I was aware of, and I had plans for that, and I was I had plenty of time, but again, yeah, because of the signage, it was not very clear still. But I showed up at the gate for the shuttle more than an hour before I it was supposed to close, and I saw no one, it was empty. Usually, when you board a plane, everybody's queuing up, and there's something on the on the on the screens that is saying boarding in process or whatever. So you can check, you can check the destination, you can check the boarding status, you can see other people, you can ask them is this the flight to your destination. None of that, it was empty, and because it was it looked like a normal gate, usually you get to your gate and nothing is happening. You're like, Okay, well, they're not boarding yet, they haven't started the process. So I was fully aware of the time, but what looked like the gate was empty, so I was okay. Well, I have time to go grab some food, which I did, and I came back again because I was still on time and everything was fine. And then the people at the gate, they're like, Oh, uh, you're gonna miss your flight, it's too late. And I'm like, What do you mean? Like, I still have half an hour. What are you talking about? And they were like, Yeah, but this is not the gate, you should have been here an hour ago. And I was like, But I I was here, you saw me, I walked past, and this was empty, so I went, I went up back upstairs. Um, so that was the first negative interaction. They were like, Okay, well, you can try and go on the shuttle, but I we don't think you're gonna make it. Well, you might not be able to make it. That's how they they said it. Um, luckily, I yeah, the the shuttle driver was uh a black person who had heard the situation, so he immediately departed. Uh, I don't think he was supposed to depart, he was supposed to wait a few more minutes for other people for other flights to get on, but we went directly to to that building, and I ran and I ran to the gate. When I got to the actual building, I ran to the gate, I sprinted, and people had already been like they knew that I was trying to board that specific flight, so they were like, run, run, run! So I was like, Okay, well, they're aware of it, so like surely they're gonna hold it for like another few seconds. Bear in mind at this point, I still don't understand why I'm late because I like there on my boarding pass. There was boarding starts at this time, um, and boarding closes at this time, and I was still well within what was written on my boarding pass. And so when I get to the gate, the actual gate, uh, she's like, No, too late, I'm sorry, with that look, like sorry face, but like fake, sorry, on her face. And I'm like, What do you mean? Like, first of all, like what am I supposed to do now? But also, what do you mean? Why am I late? Like, I I rushed and like I was panicked and all that, but I I still don't know why I'm late. So, and then they said to me, Oh, your flight, which was scheduled at 8:30, it has been moved to eight o'clock. And apparently there was so it was moved forward half an hour. So, because I was like, I am not late. The flight is at 8 30, it is eight o'clock, and and the gate closes in 20 minutes. What are you talking about? Why am I not allowed on? And she was like, No, it was actually it it has been changed. That's what they told me, and I'm like, but I didn't receive any email, I didn't receive any communication, there was nothing on the screens, there was no way for me to know. How was I supposed to know that? Um, and I later learned that that was probably a lie, which makes no sense to me, but yeah, because then that created the situation where I had booked via website, kiwi.com, and I called them. I was like, Well, this is the situation, what am I supposed to do? And obviously, they go through the normal process, so they're like, Well, I can see they could see that the flight hadn't officially departed, and I'm like, What do you mean it hasn't departed? I'm telling you, it departed early, and that's why I've been denied boarding. Why are you telling me now that it hasn't like it's past the time that it was initially supposed to? So, what do you mean? And what happened is that the flights actually departed late. I was denied boarding because under the like the guise that it would that it was moved forward, the flights actually departed more than half an hour late. So it was completely crazy. And I I I couldn't, I don't know how I'm supposed to claim. I'm still in the process now. I don't know how I'm supposed to, because I couldn't prove this story of oh, the flight is departing earlier, because there was no trace of it. The on their system, on anywhere, the answer I called the website that I that I purchased the ticket from, I called uh the the airline, and both they were telling me, I don't know what you're talking about, the flight was delayed. So, what are you even talking about? And I'm like, I didn't make that up. That's what was told to me, that's the reason that was given to me why I was denied boarding. I don't know why it doesn't matter what time it departed, I can tell you why I wasn't allowed in, and that was the reason. Um, so that's it, yeah, it's a completely yeah crazy situation. So I was so desperate, I actually went to the police because I was like, nobody seems to believe me. That was told because oh, yeah, because that was the only flight of that airline of Copa Airline. I'm gonna name them because that was unacceptable. That was the only flight departing from uh Toronto that day. So that meant that all the stuff, everybody they went home, they left. There was there's no Copa desk at the airport, there's no one. All I could do was call. And when I called, they were like, I don't know what you're talking about. The flight departed late. Um so I was like, Okay, well, now I'm the crazy person, I'm being gaslit by the this entire situation. So I went to the police and I was like, is there any way you can check the cameras to confirm at what time I got there, what time I was denied boarding? Um, the police officer, bless his soul. Um, I'm not a big fan of the police as an institution, but uh that was the first person. So, what do you say?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:33

Like, but this particular one, like this particular one.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:36

Um, that was the first person who actually listened to me and who wasn't trying to, you know. He took notes, he was taking notes, he was listening to me. So just that, just that makes such a huge difference, especially when I've I've been gaslit. Like, I was like, am I, am I, did I, did I invent it? Am I am I crazy? Like, you know, so he took notes and he was like, at first he wasn't convinced that he was able to check the cameras because he was like, This is a whole procedure, you know, you can't just check the cameras like this, and you know, only an officer, an officer can check, and there has to be serious reasons, etc. Eventually he did go and check the cameras, and he came back and he confirmed, like, you know, that I had I showed up at the test at the desk. He confirmed what time I got on the shuttle, what time I'd gone to the actual boarding gate, and like the the three-minute interaction that I had with the staff where they were telling me no, no. And he even told me one thing that is even crazier. He said that the bridge to the aircraft was disconnected 10 minutes after I had been denied boarding. So the aircraft was there, boarding, the the bridge was still there. I could have, they could have let me on, but they just wouldn't. They didn't want that. And and this whole time I'm thinking, oh, I I was denied boarding because the flight the I missed it, it had already gone. Not only had it not gone, but like the the bridge was still there for a full 10 minutes between the moment I showed up at the gate and the moment that they disconnected the bridge. So even the the police officer was like, Yes, I I agree with you that that's that whatever the reason is, but that's not on, like they they really screwed you over. Um, so at least I have confirmation that I did it, I didn't make that up, it wasn't my fault. But yes, I still ended up having to book another flight. I might have lost, not only have lost the money of that initial flight that I had booked and was unfairly denied boarding, but all obviously the flight that I ended up going on was more expensive and it was departing the next day, so I needed to find an extra night of accommodation in Toronto. So that's a lot of money, and that's not even the ADHD tax this time, it's just I don't know what to blame it on.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:54

That woman, obviously, I was like, that's really the where it is. I mean, I don't know what happened at that first gate, but like at the crux of it, you were there at the gate. The woman didn't let you on. So, like that, and she works for Copa. Is that what you said?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:12

Copa needs to cover your flight, and I they should cover the whole other flight and some you know emotional damages. Like that is ridiculous. No, no, you're not gonna let this go. You're not gonna let this go.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:25

Knowing that I wasn't crazy, that helped a lot, but I don't know. I don't know if I have the energy to fight it. Because yeah, I could make a post and post it on social media and use my platform and stuff like that. But I I'll I'll see. I know that you know that would be the right thing and the fair thing to do, but I mean, I think you could probably just call.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:46

Did you call Copa and you told them what happened and then they were just like no?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:50

Yeah, but that's that's Kiwi with through which I had booked. They kept telling me, Oh, you need to see to ask Copa and to like make a claim, make a complaint, which is which I have done. So the process is ongoing with them, but I don't trust Copa to recognize that Copa did something wrong. That's why I was trying to get the police involved because I'm like, if I have an official, like the authority with the stamp of approval confirming that you know that might threaten them or that you know, if if I decide to pursue legal actions, I mean it's very unlikely, but at least I have some official record records of what happened. Um so we'll see, but I don't have much faith in them acknowledging their mistake or their missed behavior and then compensating for it. We'll see.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:47

I'll help you. And I bet there's people listening who are like, I'll help you too. Is there a lawyer out there that wants to help? Come on. Legitimately.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:55

Yeah, well by the time this comes out, that would have been like a few weeks back. But yeah, let's see.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:01

It doesn't matter. You already filed the complaint on time, so it should be fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:06

Yeah, true. It's in the system.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:08

You talk to the police, you got the they have the recording, like you tell you put in the complaint. I you're good. We're gonna get the money better.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:19

Have mind if you have any tips, if you have any experience and like you know, expertise in this situation, if you know what I could do if all fails, then yeah, do let me know in the comments.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:31

I will say um this is not a victim blaming situation, but this is one of the reasons I do book directly from airlines now, um because there has been uh same with uh hotels, like that was one of the when I said like have not having my accommodation, like booking a hotel through a service and then showing up in the hotel being like, we don't have anything booked for you, you don't have we don't have any rooms open. And I was like, what so um and I've heard of lots of other people having that experience. So um yeah, booking directly from the hotel website, booking directly from the airline, like I highly recommend. Also, I'm a point uh like just a sucker for points, and if you book directly, then you get the points. And so that's I mean that I've now this will be my third trip to the UK on only points. So that's three to three round trip flights um over the la, you know, in over the last 15 years, but still like um I think it's uh yeah, highly recommended.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:32

Yes and no, I would not recommend. I mean, I think it depends on your situation because in this specific case, Kiwi, which was the third party I booked it through, they were the only people who picked up the phone because I tried to call the airline. It was uh also that's something we that would be for another episode, but like the hostility of systems and automations, especially for people with ODHD, how horrible it is. But like, you know, it kept asking me, like, there was a menu of option one, two, three. I it didn't make sense, especially in such a confusing situation that I was in. Obviously, yeah, there there was no option that described specifically the reason why I was calling and what. So, when you're autistic, I think this is an extra hurdle to try to like rationalize and be like, okay, let me think like the machine is thinking, and this is what I'm supposed to do. Because those systems are designed to make you give up. The success rate is determined by how many people don't go all the way to speaking to someone, they try everything they can to divert you to the website to or to just make you give up because you've waited for too long. So, in that situation, that was a horrible experience. I eventually got through to someone at the airline, but the first people who I could speak to that was Kiwi, and they were the first people who were like willing to escalate and like trying to tell me it they weren't massively useful in the end, but overall, I'm glad that I went through a third party this time because of what happened. I preferred to know that you know they technically they handle that, that's also their job. Uh so it's good to know that somebody it's somebody's job as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:12

Yeah, that's good. So Kiwi seems like a reliable one for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:17

Yeah. Well, let's see if they're successful in the claim, but at least somebody picked up the phone, right? Which was not the case for Copa Airline. And oh yeah, one last detail is that they kept asking me whether to Kiwi, Kiwi spoke to Copa, and they were then relaying it back to me. And then also when I spoke to Copa, they were saying, Well, you were advised to arrive at the airport three hours early, and therefore everything after that. And I'm like, Well, you don't know what time I arrived at the airport, that is not relevant. The time I arrived at the airport is not relevant because I was at the gate on time, so but they kept bringing me back to that as if it was my fault, and they were like, We told you to be here three hours early, so that was that's your fault.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:04

I could have sat there for three hours and I still would have been denied at the gate. Like, what the fuck are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:09

Yeah, and but but the way that they were trying to guilt trip me, and that's also well, very hostile to neurodivergent people. Uh, but also, yeah, it's it's just it's just malpractice.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:23

Yeah, yeah. We're gonna, we're gonna thank you everyone for listening.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:33

Thank you. Send Jorah's legal advice and um stay tuned for our next episodes. And um all of my as always like join the Patreon. Um if you have money to pay, we've got extra goodies for you. If you don't, we still have some goodies for you. Um we will hopefully see you there.