Listening to Your Life

In this episode, B. Davis sits down with Dr. Jason Barnhart, Professor of Theology at Ashland Theological Seminary, to explore how our sense of calling is shaped over time. Jason shares his journey from youth ministry to the classroom and reflects on how theology, worldview, and life experience all play a role in forming identity.

Together, they unpack what it really means to “listen to your life” and why calling is less about finding the perfect job and more about paying attention to the deeper story God is writing. This conversation touches on career transitions, imposter syndrome, and the tension between who we are and what we do.

If you have ever questioned your direction or wondered how your past connects to your purpose, this episode will help you think differently about calling.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

When you start to listen to your life, and I have multiple call-in exercises that I've done, I've done retreats in this. And what I always do is, you know, I'll throw out a gazillion exercises, which is usually a lot of different questions. Questions about passion, you know, questions of, you know, if you could do anything, and you know, blah, blah, blah, time was of no, you know, these kind of things. Wow, you right, you did money. Yeah, yeah. Sure. People think, oh, is that all that it is? I'm like, no, it's not all that it is. Then I have people step back and go, now go back and see, were there words or phrases that popped up again and again and again? We will call those golden threads. And then start to go, what do you think your life is communicating through those golden threads there? And then a really important part, we don't know ourselves apart from our friends.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Hey everybody, this is CallerID. We're calling about your identity, your direction, and what you're doing with your life. I'm Brandon Davis Wells. Let's dig into what we're really doing here.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Every one of us, religious, spiritual, agnostic, or somewhere in between, operates out of a framework for meaning that shapes how we understand who we are and what we're called to do. Today on Caller ID, I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Jason Barnhart, a theology professor at Ashland Theological Seminary. We're going to have a conversation about identity, career, beliefs, spoken or unspoken, that do help shape our lives and our career journeys. Jason's journey includes years in ministry, walking with young people from early age up through college, and into some pastoral roles, and then into the seminary classroom as well, where he now helps students think deeply about formation and vocation. Also writing a book on friendship right now and exploring why relationships play such a central role in who we are and who we become. Dr. Barnhart, thank you for answering the call.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Glad to, Dr. Wells.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

You know, it's funny. I got called Dr. Wells when I was teaching a college class last year, and I was I didn't correct anybody. I'll just say it that way. They don't need to know. I didn't I didn't say I was a doctor, they just start calling me then. I'm like, okay, that's fine. You know, we've got all kinds of folks out there listening. When when when people ask you what you do, when generally like when you meet somebody, what part of your answer matters the most to you?

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Yeah, it's you know, I'll be honest, I I hate that question. What do you do? Uh yeah, and and part of it is because I've always been sensitive because I've I have friends who, you know, obviously don't profess Christianity as their faith. Uh mean I have a faith at all. And I'll tell you right now, if you want to kill a conversation, you know, show up show up at a bar and you say you're a pastor or you're a theology professor, and all of a sudden, you know, everybody, you know, the guy who's been swearing like crazy, you know, starts to you know pray the sinner's prayer before you, you know, performative.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

I'm so sorry, Reverend. I'm so sorry. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

And so you do the whole thing of, well, you know, I work in the humanities. I do, you know, and then finally you go, okay, goodness gracious, I work at a seminary. Uh uh, but uh if if somebody really really presses me, you know, I I I say that I I teach largely in historical theology, which is the intersection of church history and theology. Uh, and then, you know, if they're not utterly bored to tears just by that introduction, uh I kind of go in and go, no, I just I'm really trying to help students discern uh the story that God has been telling and and the story, you know, that he wants their lives to be located in. Um, and that's my more formative answer. Right. Uh if the person has has stayed with me, you know. If they buy me a drink, then you know, I'll tell you anything.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Right, yeah, all bets are off. Yeah, open book. All right. This is true. I've bought Jason a drink, and that is true. Let's say anything so far. You know, for listeners who wouldn't necessarily describe themselves as religious or they're still figuring out what they believe, how how would you explain why theology or worldview still matters when it comes to identity and career?

SPEAKER_00 4:26

The thing that we all have to realize is that you know, we live in an era that we use the word spiritual, you know, and uh and I there's confusion around that term, but really you can't help but think theologically. We we we all you know are trying to, whether you believe there's no God, whether you believe you can't know that God, whether you believe you do know that God, those are all theological statements. Um and and so and they end up shaping, you know, the urgency or the passion with which we approach you know what we do here. We all agree that we have a limited amount of time, as those of us, including the two guys on this call right now, you know, live in that middle land, you know, and start to kind of look at the first half and go, what's my second half going to be like? We start to realize that. So, you know, when I talk about things like mortality or you know, when I talk about things of of even calling or vocation, you know, these these are theological. They may not necessarily be Christian theological, okay, but but they are they're deeply personal, meaningful impulses that we have that we're trying to navigate. And the struggle that I think for all of us, whether you're Christian or not Christian, and this is what I try to bring to the classroom, is we don't spend near enough time listening to our life, period. And for American listeners, we are we are in a nation that says it's all about progress, but we literally have no idea what we're what we're progressing towards. And by the way, our current political situation just says we're just progressing towards chaos all the time. So we so we're a people that are trying to figure out who we are, you know, in a world of chaos. And I would say the fact of the matter is that whether you have faith or no faith, if you believe that there should be some level of coherence and meaning, you're making a faith statement. Because look around you. The world is as chaotic as it you know as it can be. Where in the world do you get the idea that there should be any sort of coherence or meaning? So something there is is prompting you to kind of explore and go deeper. Uh, and I would say those would those are theological. If you want to use the word spiritual, if you want to use the word religious, those are concerns that I think are just kind of imprinted uh on us.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

That worldview part is important because whether you're trying to make a lot of money, whether you're trying to make an impact on the world, whether you want to be famous, whatever it is that kind of sort of starts to shape your worldview. And none of those things are necessarily bad in themselves, they definitely impact our decisions about jobs and careers and whether we go to college or not, or what all what we want to do. When you think about when you were 18, this is sort of the go-to question here early on. Did you think this is sort of the path that you would take? You'd end up as a seminary professor. If you told little Jason Barnhart back when you were a kid, hey, you're gonna be a theology and history professor at a seminary, what would what would Jason have said?

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Well, first off, I would I would tell that Jason that you're not little Jason Barnhart because uh you are actually taller than the Jason Barnard that you will become.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

Uh because I was making no judgment on on height because we're about the same height.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

So I'm saying little little Jason, you know, you're gonna lose an inch. Uh, you know, but you know, because you're apparently like you know Benjamin Button, but uh shrinking like Yoda, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

I think that iteration of me, and you know, you and I have both served in in college capacities, and we see it, there are just impulses firing like crazy. And part of the reason that you know a person is in college is is we we have we've lost the sense of helping to cultivate any sort of calling or anything. It's all been about you know job placement on the other side. But when they first come in, you know, they're or when I now where I teach at a seminary where we're largely adult learners who many times are our second and third career, they can't even put into words just these impulses, these desires, these passions they have, and trying to figure out how that goes together in some sort of coherent story to be able to tell. And so I would say, you know, I came to college with a I felt this call to to ministry. You know, I'd had some profound spiritual life experiences in my high school years, but I didn't know what that meant. And honestly, you know, I'm in my 40s now and I still don't fully know what that means. Uh but you know, I can one thing I can say is consistent is that I believed that God had called me to something and and I didn't fully know what it was, and and I'm learning as I get older not to hold so tightly to the expression that I live in in the moment, uh, because calling should transcend the expression, it should animate the expression, but it shouldn't just be that particular expression. So for coming to college, I would have thought, hey, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna be a senior pastor of a church. That was an expression of it. I could tell you right now, I'd be an awful senior pastor. Uh, you know, I'm I'm pastoral, no doubt.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

I don't know if that's true.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Give yourself some credit. But I can tell you that, you know, when I am in the classroom when I work with students, that pastoral side comes out. I would have never imagined that. And even when I had the first ideas of doing graduate work and wanting to go further and do doctoral work, my first passion was Christian ethics. I tell people all the time, I don't fully know how I became a historical theologian. I don't. Somehow the winds changed, and I thought I was gonna go to this shore, and my little sailboat went to the other one. I'm happy as can be with this, but I it's it's it's odd how this, you know, I'm from Virginia, first generation college student. How in the world did an Appalachian boy end up in the academy? And I'll tell you, there's often a warring going on between that Appalachian boy and this academy guy here because it's like both of them are who I am. And so trying to figure out okay, at what point do I allow the Appalachian side to come out? And by the way, when you serve in the academy, which is known for never-ending bureaucracy of meetings, uh, the Appalachian side is always like, Can I go now? Can I go now? Let me out. Let me out. Let me out. No, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

I just picture that like Yosemite Sam in a in a in a meeting at the seminary.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Hey, I'm gonna get out. Like, that's what that looks like to me.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

You know, your your your clock your comment about calling an expression of it is fascinating. And I don't know that I've ever heard those words put to it. I understand what you mean, but flesh that out because I think people out there, whether they're following Jesus or they're following Muhammad or Buddha or or no one, I think people often feel called or compelled towards a certain career, a certain field. But for you, what does that mean, like the expression of it too?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

So I I served as the chaplain of the university of Ashton University here in Ashland, Ohio, for a number of years. And one of the joys of my time there was working to get life calling to be uh part of the Ashton University experience. And I worked with a a great lady, her name is Karen Higgins. So she was in the career center, and I was, you know, in the chapel, and she has remained a fast friend. I won't bore with all the details, but you know, through organizations, what we realized was oh my goodness, uh, how can we help students learn to listen to their lives better? And that was the passion. And eventually, you know, it became you know what it is today, where you have this life calling and career center. Here's my struggle, and I love AU. Okay, they screwed it up, they just did because what they did is life calling gets hijacked by career. And so you have a life calling center and you spend most of your time just doing resumes or here's how you interview and these kind of things. And the reality is the data shows that it's these graduates are going to go out, and by the time they're 30, a minimum of several times they're gonna have changed jobs. And the likelihood of them staying in the area of their of you know, the degree they graduated in is, I mean, it's it's highly unlikely. And because we didn't train them to listen to their lives, they end up having sort of this existential crisis in their late 20s because they don't know what to do, they've never listened to their lives, they were taught how to interview for a job in their field.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

So, how does somebody how does somebody listen to their live? Like, what does that look like for people? Because I think that could mean a variety of things. What does it look like to listen to your life?

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Yeah, and it's a great question, Brandon. And it's one of those things of it, it depends on the person that I'm talking to. Some of the stuff that I have done is let's do life charting, you know. What I've what I'll have people do is I'll have them kind of go, okay, let's trace out your have kind of a graph of, you know, here's how many years you've lived. And then, you know, kind of if you could go back as far as you can remember and go, okay, uh, when I was eight years old, is it positive in my head? Is it negative in my head? You know, and then maybe kind of a scale of one, not that, you know, somewhat positive to three, you know, very positive. And then likewise down below, you know, was it negative one, somewhat negative, negative three? And then, you know, as they kind of do that, then connect the dots and then kind of go and say, okay, well, what made you say that that year of your life was negative or positive?

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Quick pause. If you're enjoying this, make sure you're following or subscribed wherever you listen. It helps more than you think. If it's hitting home, take 10 seconds, five stars, share it with somebody who needs it. Just a quick reminder.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

And then to step back and start to go, am I seeing trends? So, for example, if I've if a death happened in my family, and then all of a sudden I start to feel like I just couldn't fit in my job anymore. Well, it could have been, yeah, the job was an issue, or it could have been that maybe I just have had unprocessed grief that I've not dealt with. So it could be that, it could be, it could be journaling. But a lot of it, you know, and you mentioned, you know, my work on friendship, it is really that's why it's been so important for me. Part of listening to your life is learning how to talk to your friends about your life. And we just don't do that. We don't, we are, we are losing the art of good conversation. What we want to do is we are obsessed with results, you know, and I get it. You know, if I'm a parent sending my kid to college, I want them to have a job. I get it. But it's not that that's wrong. It's just the problem is that that's all we seem to expect out of the college experience. Instead of a, no, I want, you know, I want to college was a place at a time, especially liberal art schools like the, you know, like Ashland, where you were challenged to think critically, and that wasn't just an academic thing, that was of a formational thing. As you encounter these new ideas, think about who are you in light of those ideas there. And so the reason I say that, Brandon, is when you start to listen to your life, and I have multiple call-out exercises that I've done, I've done retreats in this. And what I always do is, you know, I'll throw out a gazillion exercises, which is usually a lot of different questions. Questions about passion, you know, questions of, you know, if you could do anything and you know, blah, blah, blah, time was of no, you know, those kind of things.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

No value, right? You money.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Yeah, yeah. Right, sure. People think, oh, is that all that it is? I'm like, no, it's not all that it is. Then I have people step back and go, now go back and see were there words or phrases that popped up again and again and again. We will call those golden threads. And then start to go, what do you think your life is communicating through those golden threads there? And then a really important part, we don't know ourselves apart from our friends. Part of who you are is shaped by friendship. Your friends and many times know you better than you know yourself. Personally, we get lost in the weeds with ourselves because we just live it every day. But a friend can go, oh my gosh, you just now realize. I mean, we had these moments, you know, you just now realize that? Yeah. And so all of a sudden I start that golden thread becomes kind of a larger animating value for me. And the reason that's important is when I go to a job change now, I can go, okay. My my wife is doing this right now. My wife has has lost her job. She is an AI casualty. Um, you know, her entire world has been in marketing and design. And she is looking to make a pivot out of that world. Um, and she's had to step back and go, what are the passion things that originally called me into marketing design? Which by the way, she would say design, marketing, not marketing. She hated the marketing, loves the design. She is one of the most creative people I've ever met.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Um, and she has a book out, by the way, if anyone's interested, that is the record keeper. Yeah, and it is I read some excerpts and it's fan fantastic. I haven't read the whole thing yet, but fantastic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Yeah. And well, and honestly, Brandon, that's a great, that's a great segue here because it was through that journey that she started to go, oh my goodness, there's a love of investigation, of creativity, of developing a story. She started to go, oh my goodness, this these were some of the impulses that called me into the artistic creative world, which was the expression of that kind of compelling or calling.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we don't know who we are without our friends. That's a great point. You're gonna keep going, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

That to me is in our current cultural moment, is is is a huge breakdown of, you know, we just live in a in an era of immense chaos. Um, and I don't, you and I don't need to get into whether it's good or bad or whatever. Right. We all just acknowledge it's chaotic. Sure. And and then what's happening though is we're not listening to our lives, you know. We what we're seeing is that loneliness is on is on the rise. Um, we're we're losing those just embodied connections again. And then we go, I wonder where all this anxiety and disaster came from. It's because a lot of people don't know who they are, um, and trying and trying to navigate that.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

On your journey to where you're at right now, career-wise, was there a moment where you said, Oh, I got it, it clicked. Some people wait for that light bulb moment. And I think for some people it comes when they figure out or they they've started to figure out who they are, but for others, it and really and for all of us, it's a lifelong process of figuring out who we are and figuring out those golden threads. And I love that language for that because I think I'm still figuring that out at 48. Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

One of the things that I found in writing when I work with students on this, because you know, one of the things I think the academy again does poorly is we don't develop a love of writing, it just becomes a burden, I gotta get through it, or whatever. And what I found again and again is that bad writing, even my own, usually comes from a lack of confidence in my voice. For me, and I can't speak this for everybody, but for my own journey, it's because even this last year I had, you know, I've had a little bit of a kind of a crisis moment. And I've been jokingly telling, you know, Barnhart men usually tap out at at 80, you know, so so I'm I'm over the halfway mark, you know, by by my definitely, definitely several years. You know, Richard Rohr talks about Richard Rohr is uh is a uh Catholic theologian, uh spiritual writer, uh in his book, Falling Upward, uh that he says the first half of our life we're trying to find our container, and then the second half of life we're trying to figure out what fills that container. And I like to add on to that and go, he doesn't go here, but I go here of. I think what happens with a lot of Americans is the first half of the life is finding the container, and the second half of life continues to be spent trying to make the container larger instead of going, but it's not filling, it's just it's just you're giving you get a bigger hanger. Um and so and so I think you know, the first half of my life has led me to a place where I like this is my container. You know, I I I am a you know a historical theologian at an institution that I love, and I am beyond blessed to to be where I am. The crisis for me is how do I steward that container? And so for me, you know, one of the things that happens in the academy is it's like how many journal articles have you read, uh, you know, and uh written, or how many conferences did you speak at? And I just go, I that brings me no joy. Uh first off, the idea of I I I'm a generalist by law, you know, I'm not really a specialist in anything. Um, so the idea of me trying to invest a large amount of time in a journal article that five people will read, um, just the the the return on investment for me personally. Is not there. And I really don't approach my job first and foremost academically. That's why I fit in a seminary because we're about formation. The container is I'm a historical theologian. What fills it though for me, I'm having to learn to lean into is I'm formational, I'm pastoral in that. Uh I would rather see deep and profound integration of what I'm teaching with a person's life than just write academically about you know this discipline. And that's hard because the academy doesn't lean that way. Right. The academy leans towards get published, all these things. And I'll get published, but my publishing is not going to be largely academic work. You know, I want to write for the average person in the church, you know, which is difficult, you know, because again, talk about being suspended in this world of even there, I'm a theologian, you know, trying to write for the average person who goes to the church. I'm suspended in that kind of tension there as well. It's really is just a matter of having to go. There's always been a historical theologian at Ashland Theological Seminary. Why in this season am I in that chair? And I always go back to there was a one of my favorite writers was the late Frederick Biekner, who I would highly recommend his memoir pieces that he wrote. He just they're brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

And just but Biekner, by the way, does not does not look like how you would pronounce that, just so you know. It looks like Bushner, B-U-E-C-H-N-E-R, I think, right? But Biekner, thanks, Germans. Yes, yeah. That German or Dutch, I don't know. Yeah, some somewhere over there. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Something like that. Uh, you know, when I see yeah, when I see the name, I think of the old the beer commercial Busch, you know, kind of thing like that.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

So if you're looking for Beakner, yeah, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

And by the way, don't drink Bush beer, it's bad.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

No, uh Bush Latte, even worse. Right. Never, never, don't do it. Just don't do it. Even if they wanted to sponsor this podcast, I would say no, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

But you know, he says, you know, calling is the intersection between your great gladness and the world's great need.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

I used to use this quote when I was teaching, uh, and when I was talking about calling and talking about identity, and I still use it all the time. It's a fantastic say it again, because people like this is the crux, I think, of what people should be looking for.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Yeah. So Biekner says that calling is the intersection of your great gladness and the world's great need.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

It's like eeky guy, right? So I talk about iky guy too. I don't know if you're familiar with that term, but yeah, yeah, something the world needs, something you love, something you can make money at, and and and something you're good at. Like it's it's very similar, except it's even boiled down to glad your gladness and the world's need.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yeah, and I and I think the because obviously I I I think the astute listener would go, well, does that always happen in a job? What I tried to you know counsel students with, and I know you did this as well, is you know, there's you're gonna you won't find a job where it's gonna be a hundred percent in your passion area. Think about it almost as percentage-wise, and go, if you know I am you know diagnosed ADHD this past year, and the entire world goes, we're not surprised. Um, and and so I have a very different way of thinking, very divergent, you know. And what I mean by that is I don't think linear. I tend to, you know, think think of this messy kind of map, and I'm connecting ideas. Well, it probably wouldn't be a great idea to say, hey, Jason Barnhart, you ever thought of being an accountant? Not that you're bad at math. So it's like, no. Uh and so and so could I do it? Yeah, but I'm you know, it would, it would just, it would just drain me, it would just kill me. Uh, and I wouldn't be good for the company, and it wouldn't be good for me. You know, trying to think of this sense of you're not gonna be fully in it, but you should set a goal of something about going that what you do, you find some gladness in it. Um, yeah, and and be open to the fact of that gladness may surprise you. You may have thought it was going to be this and it and it wasn't, you know. And who knows? Maybe I could go into you know an accountant firm, and all of a sudden I go, you know what? I didn't realize how much I love Excel spreadsheets.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

Uh it's just uh I wouldn't be more surprised if I woke up with my head sewn to the carpet. You know, uh Eddie, I I yeah, I that would be a surprise, but you're right, and being open to that, but also knowing when to cut bait, right? Was there ever a yes or no decision that you looking back now realize, boy, that was a great no, or that was a great yes, or you stepped away from something or into something that was a difficult decision. What was that like?

SPEAKER_00 26:56

I won't go in, I won't go into the details of this, but I I didn't want to leave my my role as as the university chaplain at AU. But it was one of those things of the culture was so awful, was so toxic, that in conversation with with my wife Allison, she was just like her phrase would be this is sucking your soul away from you.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Well, I've heard that phrase before too, and from my wife about something, and so I know right where you're at there.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Yeah, and so in and so I I I didn't have another job to go to. There was supposed to be another one, but that was another part of the of the toxic culture. And so I, you know, stepped into the unknown and had no idea. Um, but you know, Allison and I felt, you know, confident that this is what we were supposed to do. And and it was difficult, it was very difficult.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Oh, I remember as an outsider, as your friend, thinking Jason's crazy. He's leaving this this comfortable job that he's good at that people like him at, and he's entering into this unknown. I I remember asking my wife, saying, What's he doing? Right, and everybody has an opinion about everybody's lives. And what I what I learned there was like, I don't know the whole story, and none of us ever know the whole story about somebody.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Well, and here's but here's what I'd say, Brand. I I think every action was legitimate, everyone. And it grieves me because there are some there are some changes that had been made to it that you know, oh my gosh, I was never afforded that opportunity, right? Uh but yeah, I look back and you know, I I think your point of looking back is really important because I when I talk about listening to your life, we need to learn how to this this is such a bad phrase. Uh but but we we need to autopsy the major decisions of our lives. I think that's a good phrase.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

I like it.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

You know, so and and dissect and talk about it. A few things I would tell you. Number one, I was not fully aware of why I was thinking the way that I was. So you know, the diagnosis of being neurodivergent and those kind of things has helped give language to some of the things that maybe I was taking things more personally than I should have taken them, but I didn't have the language for it. But all I know is I was so profoundly hurt that I couldn't imagine being in the room anymore. I didn't run it by friends the way that I should have. Allison and I were on the same page. And I and I'll tell you, I I look back on it and go, it felt right in the moment. I don't know long term if it was or if it wasn't. My path worked out, and there's been some opportunity that you know that there were opportunities that came to me that who knows had would they come to me had I been in that role or not. As a person of faith, this is a place where my faith does sustain me because I go that it's not that I serve a God who goes, I want bad things to happen to you. I serve a God who says I meet you in the bad things, and we can steward these things together.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

That's why etymology is important.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

It it is, you know, but it's one of those things of you and I heard too many Christians who, you know, they try to baptize everything as if it's so Pollyanna, and it's not. It's everything happens for reason. Yeah, and it's like it's it sucks.

SPEAKER_03 30:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

And we're navigating that now. It's like a matter of, you know, did my wife want to be in marketing for her entire life? Probably not. And regardless of, you know, you know how she feels about things or whatever, the decision was made to to let her go, and she didn't have a choice in that. And and so there's just a sense of, okay, uh, I I I describe it as you're you're walking in a fog. And so the fog is is a good image, you know, and I think even better is you know, when pilots are being trained, they need to learn how to fly just by their instruments. When, you know, if you're in a cloud. And I think the instruments, the compass, if you will, becomes what are those values that my life has been telling me? As long as I chart my course by those values, then then I may not end up where I thought I was gonna end up, but but I'll be where I where I should be. It's hard to have those conversations when you're in the cloud. Yeah, the pilot shouldn't get into the cloud and go, gosh, I've never even looked at the instruments before.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

So that's a bad way to fly a plane. I don't want to be on that plane with that guy uh or girl, right? Or lady. Yeah. Uh you ever have imposter syndrome? Does that ever happen to you? All the time. All how do you how do you push that away? Oh my goodness. Because I think we all do, right? Like we we all have imposter syndrome at some time or another.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Well, you know, to to to to the listeners, I mean, I I serve at the institution where I graduated as a student. And so I came onto the faculty, and now I have colleagues who are my professors who, you know, I are now I we're on a first name basis and trying to go, okay, your name is Dan, not Dr. Hawk. But that's a case in point there of such a generous colleague and Dan. You know, this Dr. Hawk easily became Dan to me. He's one of my one of my closest friends. Here's something it sounds so simple, Brandon, but I I'm learning this more and more. Enneagram language, I'm an Enneagram three, so I'm an achiever, you know, I like to present an image. I I don't want you to really see behind it. And so there is a sense in which I I don't like to I fail all the time, I just don't want you to know it. So um so and this is where friendship comes in again, is the power of having people that you can go, I feel like an imposter. And you say it out loud. And I think so much of the struggle is we all have that internal critic in our heads, which is an amalgam of our own voices, voices from our past, whatever. And when you speak it out loud and a friend hears it, oftentimes it's the friend who goes, I'm taking that. That's a lie. I don't do a good job with that. I don't, I just push things down. Ian Morgan Crone, who who's written extensively on Enneagram language, he talks about threes. He says, you know, threes have an emotional experience, but what they do is they file it away into the file folder and the file, and eventually says that that that folder gets so large that it just pops and the papers go all across. And so you're spent scrambling trying to, you know, get these these papers back in the folder again, instead of just going, No, this is this is what I'm feeling right now, because we're talking a lot about you know how I or how you, but we have friends who come to us who are gonna share these things, yeah. And here's what I found is really bad. And I feel this a lot with my male friends, and this is the problem. I think this is why males have a hard, you know, I've written this on on male friendship because it's just been a fascinating thing for me. Is without, you know, I'm not I'm not a gender essentialist that says that every man has to be, you know, a wrestler and every woman has to be a housewife. Okay, I'm not I'm not saying that language at all, okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Uh I'm saying from my own experience, what I've found is when Brandon comes to me and shares something deep, Jason feels the impulse to fix it. Instead of just going, no, when somebody has shared something deeply with you, you receive it as a gift and you steward it as such. And some of that is a you know, learning to listen well, being very gracious and and sensitive with questions, you know, because you know, Brandon, you and I have many shared friendships. And so let's go around that Enneagram thing again and go. We have a lot of friends who are Enneagram fives who are investigators who all of a sudden just start asking you 55 gazillion questions.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

There's one in particular that comes to mind I won't say his name, but yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Oh, yes, oh yeah, same one here. Okay, yeah, and and and you're like, oh my gosh. And by the way, Heart of Gold really, really wants to be helpful. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but there's just there's a sense of like, oh my goodness gracious, I don't want a lot of questions. What you're trying to do is trying to create a space where a person, this is where hospitals, this is what hospitality really is. Hospitality is the cultivation of space between two souls to to mingle, uh, you know, to to kind of come to come together, um, which is freaky language for you know men to hear a lot of times, okay? But but I but I think our inability to have that language is why you know we just have so many identity issues in our country. For me to share vulnerably means that I am entrusting you with the reality that I don't have my life together, which is difficult to be able to share. But then what can happen in those moments back to this conversation of listening to your life is your friends know you well. So, for example, my my case in point of of how I teach here at the seminary, to be able to go, and this is this is this is a real conversation with them right now. Of Jason, do you want to be world renowned? Or do you want to be a legacy professor?

SPEAKER_02 36:14

This is the end of part one of a two-part episode with Dr. Jason Barnard. Next week we'll have episode two.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Thanks for listening to the Color ID podcast. Please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe with all of your friends on all of your social media platforms. Thanks again for signing off by the day as well.