Lessons in Leadership with Linda Rutherford (Part 2 of 2)

In part two of our 2-part call, Linda and I dive into all kinds of topics, including:why someone stays at a company like Southwest Airlines for a long time, mentorship, what growing up in a single parent household meant, mentorship, paying it forward, how to deal with imposter syndrome, women in leadership, Clifton Strengths, and what she looked for in candidates to work on her team. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Know you get into the role and then immediately your shoulders go up because you're like, Oh my god, I don't want anybody to know that they made a bad decision excuse of me. And so I realized I was being particularly quiet in some of the group leadership meetings. And and one in particular, we were in the boardroom, we were discussing, you know, a change. My former leader was sitting beside me. You know, it was lots of discussions in the room, and all during the meeting, I would kind of lean over and I would whisper something to her, and she'd look at me and nod. And you know, the decision, a decision got made, and then you know, we just we discussed next steps and marching orders. And when the meeting was over, I remember saying to her, Well, uh, I you know, I wish that had gone a different direction, but I understand why we're doing what we need to do. And she said, You know, you had some really good points. Uh, too bad nobody heard them. And that was a moment when I realized that I had to, first of all, understanding I had a perspective, right? I have experience and you know, my my upbringing and and and things that gave me uh a certain perspective. And what I had to do was make sure that every time I came into a meeting like that, I had to find the courage to share it.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Hey everybody, this is caller ID. We're calling out your identity, your direction, and what you're doing with your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

A fantastic person. If you missed last week, you gotta go check it out. This week will stand on its own if you missed last week, and that's perfectly fine. But I will tell you, you'll want to check out last week. Also, if you haven't subscribed, if you haven't shared this with your friends, I would encourage you to do this. We're around episode 20, 21 here and trying to gain some traction. I really could uh use your guys' help out there. So uh if you would share this with people, maybe your family in a text thread, share it with your work group, share it with folks that you think might be interested in it. And if you're interested in being a guest, hey, I'd love to have you on here if you have some interesting things to say about identity, calling, career, all those fantastic topics that we talk about every week on caller ID.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

And then I have a wonderful mentor who used to be a chief communications officer and and is now in the in teaching um at the College of Charleston by the name of Tom Martin, and several conversations about you know career pivots and and whether or not we should consider a different opportunity. And he always turned back and said, Lynn, I want you to think about where you work right now. He said, In my view, you're in one of the top five places to do communications on the entire planet. Wow. He said, Is the place you're considering to go right now one, two, three, or four? And you know, I had to be honest with myself and say, No. And so you know that would often, you know, sort of uh solve that uh in my head for me. But no, great help, obviously, to have a mentor like that um to really challenge my thinking. But I those are the two reasons why I ultimately stayed and chose to build and then and then finish out my you know leadership career at Southwest.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

So obviously you value mentors, mentee relationships, and that's something that you've leaned into a little bit here as well lately. Um tell me about the the Betsy Plank Award and what that was about, and and you know, some of the mentoring and and even maybe the approach you took, because I think you know, everybody says they want a mentor, but not everybody knows what that means or or what that relationship should look like. Or, you know, did you go to did you go to folks in your organization that were under you and say, like, was there a direct conversation where you said I'd like to mentor you?

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Yeah, I I think it goes for me, it goes back to I'm the product of a single parent family. So my parents were divorced when I was nine and my sister was five. And my mom had never really worked outside the home. And so she had to go to work for the first time ever. So we were the quintessential latch key kids with the, you know, the house key around your neck on a piece of yarn. And um, and I had to learn, I think, to be resourceful and resilient at a very young age. Um, had to learn how to to contribute to making sure the house, you know, worked. We all had chores, you know, we had chores, we helped with dinner. I my mom's first job was as a receptionist at an acoustics manufacturing company, and I think she made $4.68 an hour. And so, you know, we lived in Section 8, government subsidized housing. So, you know, we always had what we needed. We didn't necessarily always have what we wanted. And so college was not a foregone conclusion. Yeah. And so through lots of uh scholarship help and and federal Pell Grant, I got to have a college education, which was by again by no means guaranteed.

SPEAKER_05 5:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

That I think built in me a lifelong um commitment to pay it forward because other people provided that funding that made it possible for me to have a game-changing education. And so I have always agreed that if I had fun, time, talent, and treasure is what I call it. Yeah, right now I have treasure, I'm going to use it to help others. And so the time I can do in mentoring, the talent that I can provide in teaching, um, and then treasure if I have things, uh, you know, I have an endowed scholarship at my alma mater, uh Texas Tech, and I very much believe in giving back. And so for me, the mentoring is the opportunity to pour into others and help them see their potential, like like many people uh did for me, including getting my colleagues.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

I used to use the phrase time, talent, and treasure when I worked in development with board. Um, and I constantly would say, Look, I know not all of you have the same level of resources or the same skills or the same whatever it is, and I always ask them to at least give one of them. You know, if you have time, donate the skill, you know, if you have time, come and volunteer, come and serve. If you have a a talent, you know, we can find a way to utilize you. And if you have the treasure, then great. If you have all three and you have the the the like that heart for that is important, and I I appreciate that story. I appreciate the vulnerability of sharing. Um, it's not easy for people to to to walk through those things, but it is also out of our greatest uh challenges that we actually can serve in the best way. At least I've always found that to be true.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

And I had a, you know, one of the scholarships that I received was from the Dallas Rotary Club, and one of the benefactors uh of creating that scholarship was a gentleman by the name of Maurice. Um Maurice Akers was former, um, he was the husband of Ebbie Halliday, um, who is known, you know, as a as a very successful and um he would call my apartment in Lubbock, Texas and check up on me. Oh wow, you know, once or twice a month. And, you know, this is all before texting and cell phones and the internet and all of that. So we had an appointed time um that we would uh that we would talk, and I had I better be home to answer the phone. And I felt I felt accountable, right? There was somebody who was looking after me who wanted to make sure I was studying and attending class. I I just felt like he his investment in me was important and I didn't want to let him down. And so, you know, that's a um college experience where I just felt like someone was, you know, in addition to my mom, was looking after me and it meant a lot. And so I didn't want to disappoint.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Southwest has a pretty good reputation and track record with women and leadership. Um, you know, when you were there, did you feel a bigger responsibility as a woman? Like to, I mean, for those coming beneath you, that that like was that a heavier burden, or did you did you relish that? Was that part of the mentoring?

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Yeah, like uh thankfully it's a workplace that that encourages um you know growth and development and and for everyone. Um, you know, it can be a you it can be a bit unusual to see with um in the airline business, but we were fortunate that Claret, uh, as our president and then our president emeritus, I mean, she was one of the first uh uh presidents of a of an airline. And so she set a great example. Now she'll tell you that was never my you know, I never set out to be an example or a trailblazer, but she was, and I think her comfort with her role at her level gave um, you know, encouragement and and enthusiasm, honestly, to and then there were other, you know, there was a head of marketing who was a female, my boss, who was then the head of communications, a female. Um, there was a a leader in ground operations in an operational role, which was pretty unusual. So we had lots of female mentors to look to. And I I knew then that I wanted to also be one, right? I didn't, I wanted to sort of that uh to being a woman uh example um for others to follow. And you know, we have employee groups, um, you know, one specific uh for women, uh, another one for working moms. And I think that, you know, I've been actively involved in those as a speaker, as a panelist, as a cheerleader. Um, and I very much believe in the work that happens there in order to encourage women to see their potential. I do think that at times as a um we may mute ourselves or we may question our capabilities. And I think organizations like this and um like the like the women's support group help us understand how to find our WA and find productive ways to share it in the workplace so that we can uh take on leadership roles like the one I had the, you know, like the ones that I had the opportunity to serve in.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

In any of those roles, that kind of leads me to my next question. Did you ever have bouts of imposter syndrome? Because I think most of us deal with it at some point where you're like, I can't believe I'm in this room, or I can't believe I'm doing this. Did that ever happen? Did you ever feel that?

SPEAKER_02 10:17

And if so, like how did you I you know I I I learned a really big lesson. Um, you know, you get into the role and then immediately your shoulders go up because you're like, oh my God, I don't want anybody to know that they made a bad decision excuse me. Uh, and so I realized I was being particularly quiet in some of the group leadership meetings. And and one in particular, we were in the boardroom, we were discussing, you know, a change. Um, my former leader was sitting beside me. You know, it was lots of discussions in the room, and all during the meeting, I would kind of lean over and I would whisper something to her, and she'd look at me and nod. And um, you know, the decision, a decision got made, and then you know, we just we discussed next steps and and marching orders. And when the meeting was over, I remember saying to her, Well, uh, I you know, I wish that had gone a different direction, but I understand why we're doing what we need to do. And she said, You know, you had some really good points. Uh, too bad nobody heard them. And that was a moment when I realized that I had to, I first of all, understanding I had a perspective, right? I have experience and um, you know, my my upbringing uh and and and things that gave me uh a certain perspective. Uh and what I had to do was make sure that every time I came into a meeting like that, I had to find the courage to share it. So yeah, sure. Do you have do you get into a role and be like, oh gosh, I hope, you know, do I have imposter syndrome? Sure. There's lots to learn. In every role I've ever had, there were things to learn. And so thankfully, I have a self-assuredness that doesn't make me afraid to admit what I don't know. Yeah. And so I've done that through many roles that I've had at Southwest Airlines. And and and I think that vulnerability has actually helped me be approachable uh by team members. I think it, you know, it's a bit self-deprecating. I think that I was hopefully less intimidating to some people, a commitment to always finding the answers if I didn't have them. And then what I realized through that lesson in the boardroom that day was that I had to sort of step through some of that anxiety I had about speaking up and being wrong to find my voice and then share my, you know, share my perspectives and opinions, of course, in a culturally, you know, appropriate way. Right. Um, and and and I and I would do that. Uh, but I think those were, you know, some of the lessons that I've learned along the way.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

I feel like as we're talking, I'm thinking, man, it would have been it would have been really enjoyable to work for you. You seem like you would have enjoyed your work and not taken it too seriously, but you're also in a place that allowed you to be you.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Culturally, definitely, I ended up in a place that allowed me to be me. I think that uh, you know, our CEO right now, Bob Jordan, um, always said to me that he felt like it was unfair when women who were assertive or or used their voice, yeah, you know, were were called aggressive or a word at the end of the B.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Yeah. Other labels, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

It's so I he felt like that was completely inappropriate and actually encouraged us to make sure that you know our voice was heard in the room and and um was taken into consideration. So I very much appreciate that. You know, I wanted to be sure that the opportunities for those who would come after me would be, you know, I I think sometimes in some organizations, women get to a role and they felt like they had to fight for it so hard to get sharp elbows. Um, and I wanted to make sure that that culturally was not something that we practiced at Southwest. You know, in some organizations, they climb the ladder and then they pull the ladder up after them. I wanted to make sure that not only was the ladder there, but that we were holding it to make sure that when others were climbing up it, it was something that they felt like they could do. And I think one of the lessons, other lessons that I learned is my personality is and my strengths are in what's called futuristic and arranger. So I like, I like to do that horizon scanning. Yeah, I like the art of the possible, and I can sort of see that picture.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Is that the Clifton strengths? Is that what those are for?

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

So my first two are futuristic arranger. And I think that type, that style of leadership was exciting for the people that I got to work with because again, the compelling vision, the art of the possible, people get excited about that kind of work. And so I do think it made for a work environment where people kind of came in and felt like they could get their hands dirty. It was okay to make them fail fast, make a mistake, learn from it, you know, move on. And um, and and I really uh, you know, we did a lot of things that were were where we were able to introduce programs, concepts, opportunities to the airline that that I'm very proud of.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

When you were hiring people underneath you for your team, did you a two-fold question? Did you guys use stuff like the Clifton Strength Finders to try to fill out your team? And what were the things, like one or two things that you really looked for that were not tangible things?

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Southwest Airlines is a strength-based organization. Not from the very beginning of my hiring were we necessarily looking at strengths, but certainly in the latter part of my career, we were using, you know, the Clifton Strengths Finders as an assessment tool. A couple things that I would look for is uh an intellectual curiosity. I can read your resume and see if you're you know competent in the interview process. I'm really looking for Southwest fit, I'm looking for an intellectual curiosity, and I'm looking for what I would call a teamwork orientation. So not somebody who wants to come in and be a star grabber, but somebody who comfortably can find their place within a team because Southwest as an organization is kind of built on collaboration and teamwork. And again, nothing wrong with people who like to be strong, heads-down individual contributors, just to say that in an environment like Southwest, I think those people would have been a little more frustrated by that, you know, with how much we sort of move as a group. You know, people sometimes joke we move as that, you know, that scrum in a in a in a fourth-grade subject. Yeah, I love that. But we do like to move together. And so people who are highly collaborative and enjoy finding their place on a team are often those who I think are most successful in our cultural environment.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

I love the strength finder. I love Clifton, I like the Enneagram, I love Myers Briggs. They all can bring something. Uh Lencioni's uh six, I forget what they are now. I just all those things can be such helpful tools for knowing number one who you are, what your team is like, what gaps you have. Uh I remember you know, I took those that test for the Clifton strengths, and for me it came back as woo. Woo was number one. And I worked for somebody who was like, oh man, I can't stand woos. But he also said, but I will give him credit, he also said, but I need those people around me. So he did recognize like that that was that was like his absence, you know, uh his weakness, not not weaknesses, but it ranked lower on his strengths. We'll say I've got time for a couple more. First of all, if if anybody out there wants uh any more reflections from from the podcast, I do a weekly substack as well, stuff we always don't necessarily get into on the podcast, but sort of my reflections on the week and on the interview, you can find that link in the show notes. Uh, and I'd really appreciate it. You can rank you can rate the show, follow it, do all those things that help it grow. Uh, and we're visiting with Linda Rutherford uh and talking all things career and identity. And I will ask you a leadership question. What is something that people misunderstand, maybe, about what it's like to be in senior leadership?

SPEAKER_02 17:52

I think sometimes, particularly in Western culture, there's an expectation that leaders are know-it-alls. I mean, you must have you must know everything, and you know, that's how you got to your to your leadership position. Um and that's not the case. And I see I so I think that's something that people misunderstand is that if I'm an expert in my field, I should be able to be a leader in my field. And I would say that those are two different things. You can be an expert in your field, but the universal capabilities are of a leader are the ability to motivate and inspire others. So to me, what what's the difference between a good leader and a great one? A great leader understands what they don't know and they're okay with it, and that they have the ability to motivate and inspire others. And not everybody has that natural natural capability, and that's okay too. Yeah, but that doesn't, that means that just because you are an expert communicator or an expert finance analyst or you know, an expert operator doesn't mean you necessarily should ascend to be the leader of others if you don't naturally possess the ability to motivate and inspire others.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

You know, what I learned in seminary is a phrase that's that'll preach. And I think that like what you just said is if I could bottle that up and share it with every leadership discussion that we have in this country, I would because it it is so important when I think about from a sports standpoint as somebody who's coached a lot. I mean, I I I coached against some folks and with I coached against some people that knew X's and O's way better than me, or they they they knew um you know baseball better. Or at least it was in the ballpark, right? But the motivational part and understanding how people tick and what makes them tick and how to treat them is is the differentiator. You're right, between good leadership and great leadership. I you know, John Wooden said you don't handle people, you handle farm animals, you deal with people. And I oh I will never forget that. I think you're you're right. All right. Uh this is a question I love to ask people. What brings out when you're at work or in a work setting, your inner Larry David, the thing that like, you know, curb your enthusiasm. It makes you the most frustrated. You're like, I can't believe this happens. And you know, when you were for an airline for a long time, maybe you saw it, some ridiculous expectations probably from customers. I you didn't say that, I did, because I was one of those people at one point. Uh, and then uh, you know, what about your your your Ted Lasso moments where it's you're you're at your at the center of Ikagai, you're at the center of what brings you joy in the world's need.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

My grumpy Larry David comes out when people have a misunderstanding of what communication is. So it's like, you know, um, when people assume communication will solve a business problem, that's when my grumpy Larry David comes out. Because, you know, communication didn't cause the problem, right? So communication probably can't fix the problem, and and that's when I get grumpy. My Ted Lasso comes out when I am working usually one-on-one with a leader, and some spark or light comes on when they realize that they could do, they want to do something, they they or they've or they've achieved something that they didn't think was possible. But because I was there to encourage, challenge, stretch them, whatever that looked like, they got there and a light bulb went off. And that's when, you know, the whole believe idea. And I was like, see, you can do it now. What else can we do? And I think that's probably when my Ted Lasso comes out.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

If I could show you my desk that's in front of me that I have all kinds of things on top of, it is a believe banner right now. So I appreciate that. All right, we got time for a little bit more word association. You ready? Sure. Career.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

Uh fulfilling.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

Success. I love that. Money.

SPEAKER_03 22:19

Calling. Calling.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

It's one that it's one that I think we all struggle with because sometimes people think you have like, I'm called to be a teacher, or I'm called to be a business person, or I'm called to do this.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

I think I I realize now in all these years that I think the the calling, where I am most fulfilled, this is not a one-word answer, is that um is that impact that I have found that I can have on others. And I didn't I didn't know I I didn't know. I didn't know that I could do that first of all, and I didn't know what impact that would have on others, and that's been truly fulfilling.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

When you look ahead, what kind of work are you hoping to do going forward? I know you're you're working on a book. Are there more to come? What are you up to next? And what do you hope to do uh work-wise and career-wise here?

SPEAKER_02 23:14

You know, I think this next chapter does involve a little bit more paying it forward. And so maybe not necessarily, you know, all as I think about, you know, monetarily, but it is definitely using my experience and my work history as a way to pay it forward where it is helpful to others who are pursuing a career in communications or with the airline business or aspiring to leadership. And I think that those opportunities to go into the classroom and teach, to do, you know, corporate workshops, uh, maybe where they're trying to align a leadership team, you know, those are the opportunities that I see uh that will be fulfilling and fun for me uh in this next chapter.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

What do you do for fun? That's one question I always ask people, or I try to always ask people because the first question most people say at a dinner party is so what do you do for a living? And I hate that question. I try not to ask it. What do you what but you know, it's kind of the nature of our conversation. What do you do for what do you do for fun?

SPEAKER_02 24:10

The three things. Uh my husband and I are both foodies, so we love trying out new restaurants. Second, we have a four-year-old Tibetan spaniel, so it's about spoiling uh our dog child. And the third one I mentioned early on, that it's working that way through that travel list that we, you know, there was there was always a desire to travel, and ironic that I worked for an airline, but there wasn't necessarily time to do that. Now I have time. Um, and so we are definitely working our way down our our travel aspiration list.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

You know, Southwest has been uh big in the news lately and big because of the their change, the change in uh seating. I was talking with some friends and my dad about this the other day. I think they've done a fantastic job of communicating the message, at least on ads. What's been the response from folks?

SPEAKER_02 24:57

We operated one way for a very, very long time. So I think you have to expect that when you make a complete operational transformation, there will be some people who are cranky about that. Yeah. Um, because you know, we we are creatures of habit. And so, you know, I think the news cycle passed pretty quickly. I think if you look in social, there's still a little bit of grumbling around, ah, you know, this. I will tell you, I've traveled at least a dozen times since the seating changes in in January, and watching people sitting in the gate area in the boarding and then getting on the airplane, it's been really smooth. And so I am so proud of our employees. First of all, the employees behind the scenes who built the operational capability. That's remarkable. I believe and then watching our operators actually deliver on that promise and those changes every day have done great. Our customers, for the most part, have come right along with us. And this probably the largest transformation that the company has ever been through in its, you know, 53 plus years uh of existence. You're gonna have a few things you're learning and iterating along the way, but the technology works, the employees were well trained and ready for the change, and all the communication was hopefully to set our customers up for success. So I've been really proud watching from the sidelines everything that you know both our customers have learned along the way and what the operation has executed.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Well, I appreciate you answering that. I didn't I didn't tell you I was gonna ask you that. And I just it just dawned on me of like, yeah, that's a thing that's going on. All right, last word. Uh I'll give you the last word. What sort of wisdom or advice do you have for somebody out there looking at you know their career and and you know what's something that stands out to you that you can share with them?

SPEAKER_02 26:40

You know, I um was just on a college campus last week and was asked that question. And I would say that what we have to remember, I think sometimes we struggle with decisions because they feel final. And what I tried to tell some of the folks I was talking with is that, you know, a decision is not a life sentence. And so sometimes we have to make the best decision with the information that we have in front of us. And if we get into that decision and go, ooh, I've made a mistake, remembering that it's okay, we're gonna make a lot of mistakes in our lifetime. It's what you do when you realize you've made that mistake. Do you do you wallow in it? Does it cause analysis, paralysis? Or can we pick ourselves up? Can we be resourceful? Can we pivot? And so that's my advice when I'm talking to people is to remember that you know, decisions can be undone, and that nothing you do has to have, you know, a finality to it. You know, make the best decision you can. Don't keep it, don't let the anxiety keep you from making that decision. But if it turns out not to be a good one, okay, what did I learn about that? And then let's pivot.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

That's Linda Rutherford. Thanks so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Thanks for getting platforms.