S1E23 - Dr. Mohsine Bensaid | More Than Your Output: Dr. Bensaid on Language, Faith, and Not Losing Yourself

In this episode of Caller ID, Brandon Davis Wells talks with Dr. Mohsine Bensaid—Ashland University assistant professor and TESOL program director—about identity beyond the usual “what do you do?” question. Bensaid shares how growing up in Morocco, dreaming of pro soccer, and discovering English through an influential teacher shaped his path into language, education, and intercultural exchange. He recounts navigating rigid schooling, pursuing English linguistics and literature, and seizing opportunities that eventually brought him to the U.S., where he experienced higher education as a global “melting pot.” They discuss why language learning and intercultural understanding matter, the value of exploring in college, and how his Islamic faith frames work as worship rooted in integrity and service. The core takeaway: your job shouldn’t carry the full weight of your worth—balance means not losing yourself in any one role.

00:00 Burnout And Balance
00:24 Meet Dr Bensaid
01:00 Beyond What You Do
02:05 Soccer And Family Joy
03:16 Injury Ends The Dream
03:49 Morocco School Choices
05:03 Finding English Passion
09:46 University Culture Shock
12:26 Chasing Exchange Opportunities
15:18 Fulbright And The US Leap
17:39 Higher Ed Melting Pot
19:44 Making Intercultural Priority
20:20 Small Town Initiative
20:54 Why Languages Matter
22:17 Morocco vs US Schools
23:37 Back Home Teaching
26:28 Returning to Ashland
28:20 Networking Lands ACCESS
30:21 Exploring Careers
33:46 Faith and Work
36:43 Final Career Wisdom
39:34 Closing Thanks

Transcript

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 0:00

that is when burnout and disconnection set in. You are more than what you produce, and your value is not measured by your output. So balance is not really about giving equal time to everything. It's about not losing yourself in any one role.

Brandon Davis Wells 0:24

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid's journey from Morocco to Ashland University, from student to teacher to program director and professor isn't just career path, it's a story about language, identity, faith, and helping people find their voice. So today we're going to go deeper than just what do you do. We're talking about who you become and how that's shaped by where you come from. Dr. Mohsine Bensaid, thank you for taking the call today, my friend.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 0:53

Yeah. Thank you, Brandon. I appreciate being here.

Brandon Davis Wells 0:56

Dr. Bensaid and I were coworkers and colleagues at Ashland University, For people who don't know you, how do you usually describe who you are or what you do?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 1:04

That's a tough question. Yeah, I think it depending on the context, but for example, meeting someone at a conference, I would introduce myself as a assistant professor and program director. Just framing where I come from, depending on the situation. But if I'm going to my daughter's volleyball game, I would say, "Oh, I'm Aaliyah's father or Amira's-" Yeah "father," right? Instead of saying, "Hey, I'm a professor at Ashland University." Yeah.

Brandon Davis Wells 1:33

I think that's important. That context is real, right? I, I- always ask people, the traditional American question, and we talk about this all the time on this podcast, especially with men, is "So what..." You meet somebody. "What do you do?" I always like to ask people now, "What do you do for fun? What kinda makes you a more rounded person? What is it that drives you?" Now, what do you do for fun? I would- What do you like to do outside of work?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 1:54

So at the beginning of the podcast, you mentioned where you come from and how that shapes maybe who you are, what you do, down the road, in the future, in your career so on and so forth. Growing up, all I could think of is that I would be a soccer player. Yeah. That was my, dream profession. I didn't really think of anything else. So I did play a lot of soccer growing up. I watched a lot of soccer. One thing that brings me joy right now is watching soccer. I don't feel like I can play as much as I used to, in my-

Brandon Davis Wells 2:26

Yeah, I hear you.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 2:27

younger days but that brings me a lot of joy. I also enjoy taking my daughters to their sporting events. They're both active in volleyball and gymnastics. And spending time with family, travel. Whenever we can, we love to travel and learn about new places, new cultures. It all depends on how much time you have. I think time is that rare valuable commodity that, that, you can never get back.

Brandon Davis Wells 2:51

Yeah. Yeah, time and money are the two things that most of us never have enough of, right? You wanted to be a- pro soccer player. I can relate to that. Not on the soccer side, but I think until I was really maybe a junior or senior in high school I thought I, I'm gonna be a professional baseball player, right? And I thought that was my... That's what I wanted- to do. Don't get me wrong, I still wanted to do that after those years, but I think it kinda hit me "Yeah, I'm probably not gonna be that level." Sure. Yeah. Was there a moment where you said, "Yeah, I guess this probably isn't the thing"?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 3:21

I think that's when I had my wrist fracture- Oh at the age of, I think, 14. And coming back after that, I think it was maybe a few months later and, I was able to tell, even at that age I was able to tell that I wasn't as fast as I was. Once you get those injuries, they haunt you and curb your, your- enthusiasm and your speed and...

Brandon Davis Wells 3:41

Yeah. That happens. Yeah. You've served in a variety of roles. Right now you're serving as an assistant professor of education, director of the tESOL. At Ashland. You grew up in Morocco, right? A- and at- Yes, sir. Yes at 18, is this what you thought you'd be doing? H- and how did you end up in the United States? I'm really curious. I don't think we've ever talked about that.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 4:00

That's a very good question. Okay. I'll start from the beginning. So elementary school, middle school it's all general education in Morocco, right? And then in high school you get to choose a route, right? There's a literary route, there's a science, math route, and then there's the technical, occupational route. So if you go to a technical school, And I was really good at math, right? But I think also as impressionable young people, we tend to listen, and sometimes indirectly listen to bad advice.

Brandon Davis Wells 4:34

Yeah. That's true

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 4:35

and the idea is that, if you go to a math route or scientific route, that's, it's super expensive. It's super hard. You have to have a lot of support, this and that. So I chose the literary route, and one day, I was just, walking down the street, and I come across one of my middle school teacher, and he said, "Hey, what are you doing now?" "How was your high school?" And then I told him what, what I'm doing, and he was disappointed that I didn't follow a scientific route. But anyways, so I'm in high school, right? Yeah. The second year of high school back then in Morocco, you get to choose another foreign language.

Brandon Davis Wells 5:10

Okay.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 5:10

An additional language that you study. So I didn't know what I was gonna do with my life. I had no idea, and I, at that point, I knew that I was not gonna be a soccer player, so My dreams are all crushed. I'm down in the dumps, just like

Brandon Davis Wells 5:22

about 80% of young men, right? In some way, we all thought we were gonna be a pro athlete, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 5:27

So yeah second year of high school, I have no idea what I'm doing with my life, and then I, y- choosing an an additional... in Morocco, you study standard Arabic from grade one and throughout, if you go to public school. So private schools, there's a different story. But third grade you start studying French.

Brandon Davis Wells 5:44

Third grade.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 5:45

I think... Yeah, I think now it's different. Now you start from first grade in public schools. Wow. You study standard Arabic and French. And then in middle school you do En- English or Italian or Spanish or whatever foreign language you choose. But back then when I was a student back in early 2000s, So my second language was gonna be Spanish, Italian, German or English. So I went for English. And I remember this teacher my first years learning English, and he was such an amazing person, not just as a teacher, but also as a human being. For the first time I see a teacher playing soccer for fun with us,

Brandon Davis Wells 6:24

yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 6:25

During gym class, and he was not a gym teacher, but, would come and play soccer with us, and that was wow. I... And, I did come from a different educational system, so now I go to K12 schools in, in the US, and you see how kids interact with their teachers. Back then, a- all the kids are facing the teacher, and you cannot say anything without, their permission. It was very super rigid. And if a teacher, if your teacher finds you outside playing in the street, right? You better do your homework so the next day- he's gonna ask you, he or she's gonna ask you.

Brandon Davis Wells 7:00

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 7:00

You better... And physical punishment was acceptable. So if the teacher hits you in class and you go back home and you tell your parents that so and so punished me for something, th- your parents are gonna doubly punish you, Yeah, right for that. So it's it was a different world. But anyway- Yeah I digress. Sorry.

Brandon Davis Wells 7:19

There's no, I'm not making... There's no value judgment I'm making on that, but it is different, right? That's just a different- world that you grew up in, and that, that context does help shape some of your decisions, right?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 7:28

Absolutely. No, big time. Yeah. And that second year of high school experience in the English class was incredible that, okay, maybe this is something that I like. For the first time I'm thinking, "Okay, this is a subject that I'm not just good at, but it's something that I like." Right? And that's where I was really. The the last two years of high school, that was it. It's English. I like it. I love it. I'm interested in it, but I didn't know what to do with it, right? So I finished high school, and I'm at that crossroads. I don- I don't know what to do with my life. All I know is that maybe my grades are good.

Brandon Davis Wells 8:03

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 8:03

I have family in Europe, and I could go and study in Europe, Netherlands, Belgium. I did apply to an art college in Belgium, and I get admission

Brandon Davis Wells 8:14

Huh.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 8:14

With a little, a grant to go with that, and I also applied for a military school, believe it or not.

Brandon Davis Wells 8:22

Wow.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 8:23

And I get admission to that. Okay. And then I applied for at the same time, I applied for English, and before that actually, I had a lot of doubts.

Brandon Davis Wells 8:32

Oh.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 8:32

And people, my, my cohort, my classmates or former classmates from high school and be like, "Okay you should not you should not study English at the university level. It's too hard. Too hard. You're gonna be competing with kids who went to private schools who speak English at home," all of that. And- And, but it then I didn't know what to do again I'm at that-

Brandon Davis Wells 8:55

Yeah

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 8:56

point zero.

Brandon Davis Wells 8:57

Yeah, and what

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 8:57

your friends- Square zero. Not

Brandon Davis Wells 8:58

sure. We, I've talked about this with a lot of people Mohsine, that what your friends say to you and what your family says to you when you're thinking about careers and choices and colleges and universities or trade school, it matters, right?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 9:11

Oh, big time, yeah. I don't think, I think the things that you say and also the things that you don't say-

Brandon Davis Wells 9:15

Yeah

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 9:16

matter. So when you go to your parents or siblings for advice, they are like, "Okay, you know what? Do whatever you want. It's your life, and we'll support you." But you also want, maybe at a certain point in our lives, we want that direct explicit advice. So but I was not really getting that. Maybe for what it, for good or bad reasons, I was not getting that. But, y- there's a lot of noise, right? You're trying to make a very important decision in your life, but there's a lot of noise and that can compound the doubts in your head in your mind. But anyways, regardless of their my, friends' advice I went and I majored in English linguistics and literature, English literature and linguistics at Ibn Zohr University, and that was an incredibly amazing experience too just because those professors were not really the product of the Moroccan, rigid public system. These are professors who studied in England, in the US and came back and, pursued teaching careers in Morocco.

Brandon Davis Wells 10:15

Culture shock when you went from one s- kind of system to another?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 10:20

Absolutely, yeah. That was, yeah, absolutely. It was completely different. It was great. I had awesome relationship with most of my professors I would say. Not all, but most of them. And these are people who could see, who is serious about their studies and who wants to go to places and-

Brandon Davis Wells 10:39

Yeah

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 10:40

and would invest in those people. And I spent some of my summers actually working for one of my professor's translation business. So I would go to another city and go, and they would give us documents to tran- It was only me and an- another friend. And we did that on the side, yeah.

Brandon Davis Wells 10:55

Wow.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 10:56

And that was amazing. So

Brandon Davis Wells 10:57

Was that your first job?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 11:00

Not really my first job, but it was a different job, different kind of job. Because now I'm looking at what this person does. This is an incredibly smart person, and I can see that these people don't just do one thing. They have different habits. They are, they look for high impacts. This is not, what I saw around me was, like, teachers who teach and go home and, and then come back, and there's a- there's a lesson plan guide that they have to follow that was passed down from the Ministry of Education, and they have to follow that, you know- Yeah to the T. But now I'm looking at different type of caliber in terms of careers. These are people who, conduct research. These are people who go to events outside what is dictated by the curriculum. I remember because... yeah, my first year of college was tough because I had to catch up with some of my classmates. I was not really at that level, but I didn't really back down,

Brandon Davis Wells 11:55

yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 11:55

I think- our cohort, my cohort, and it was also like a new system. My first year was a new system that the university adopted where you can actually finish your degree in three years. And I think we, we started with 500.

Brandon Davis Wells 12:12

Okay.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 12:13

And we finished with, I wanna say, like shy of 100, like graduates.

Brandon Davis Wells 12:19

Wow.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 12:20

So less than 20% were able to finish that, the program.

Brandon Davis Wells 12:25

Wow.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 12:26

But I also remember times where I had to... 'Cause those opportunities, so these professors would come down, didn't, did not really live in my town back then early 2000s. Kenitra, I come from Kenitra northwest of Morocco. It's a coastal city, but it's not really one of the famous cities of Morocco that tourists you know go to. So you have Rabat, you have Casablanca, you have Marrakesh, you have Tangier, but not really Kenitra. So the interaction with people coming from other cultures is not as frequent as in other cities. And also especially with English, there was not really a lot of traction- Yeah a lot of incentives or popularity. Why should people learn English, right? Rarely when you see an English-speaking person, roaming the streets of Kenitra versus other cities. So- Yeah these professors would share opportunities like through cultural exchange, centers in Rabat, the capital. And for me to get there to participate in those events, I had to take a taxi from my home right?

Brandon Davis Wells 13:31

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 13:32

To the train station, and then take a train to Rabat, and then it's, a short ride, but still it's something for someone with zero income,

Brandon Davis Wells 13:40

yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 13:40

A college student.

Brandon Davis Wells 13:42

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 13:42

And then take a taxi from the train station in Rabat to where the center is, and then go and participate in those discussions. And some of the d- and some of the discussions were around, maybe around faith, around, cultural questions. So you have students from the UK, from the US would come and then meet with students from Morocco and have those conversations.

Brandon Davis Wells 14:03

Wow.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 14:03

So I would go probably once a month or maybe every other week just to have those conversations for an hour, right?

Brandon Davis Wells 14:11

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 14:11

And I cherished those opportunities because back then I didn't have, I didn't have... We don't really, we didn't have access to what we have now. Now we have apps like you know-

Brandon Davis Wells 14:19

All

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 14:20

of them a lot of language, you know- Yeah learning apps and-

Brandon Davis Wells 14:22

Duolingo-

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 14:23

Yeah

Brandon Davis Wells 14:23

all the thing yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 14:24

You have YouTube. This was pre-YouTube era, youTube came out I think 2006, 2007. This was- Yeah before YouTube, so That's

Brandon Davis Wells 14:31

crazy.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 14:31

Yeah.

Brandon Davis Wells 14:32

Now I can get on my phone here and say, "Hey, I wanna learn Arabic," right? A- and do a daily exercise, and at least have a- Sure concept of what it is and how to speak a little bit. Sure. Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 14:42

You might even meet native speakers, you know- Yeah on your phone now, right? Yeah. And that would save you the hassle. But also, I think I see the value of doing that because that made me cherish those opportunities.

Brandon Davis Wells 14:52

Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. So y- you, you started in, English literature and linguistics. Your language has always been a major part of your career from even when you finished, graduate school. But move me into how you ended up going from this, in Morocco at university to come to the United States. What prompted that? Why? And, maybe some of the challenges.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 15:17

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So again, like second year of college in Morocco I'm majoring in English literature and linguistics. And then there was a new opportunity that presented itself Fulbright Grant. And I was just, walking through the the corridor of the English department in Ibn Tofail University, and then I see this flyer, Fulbright Scholarship. Okay. It's a grant that you can apply to, and I was thinking about that, and I, started collecting all the documents that they needed. And I knew it was very competitive because it was open to all all English majors, right? So but I did apply. I got that, and at the same time I applied for a scholarship to a different university in Morocco to pursue not just a master's degree, but it's a master's degree that, that led to a doctorate degree.

Brandon Davis Wells 16:08

Oh, okay.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 16:09

It was... Yeah, it was like a combined program where you can, spend maybe four years and finish with a PhD. So there was that, but it was in Morocco versus this, where I would come to the US and I would come as a transfer student, not... So the idea, because the the new the new program that I told you about where you can finish your degree was, it was possible to finish your degree in three years. So this is what I did. I worked so hard to finish that last year in Morocco and earn that degree, and now I finished my bachelor's degree in l- English linguistics and literature. And then I have these two opportunities. A master's degree that leads to a doctorate degree in Morocco, stay in Morocco, in a different city, but still it was not too far from my hometown, or come all the way to the US and finish another bachelor's degree.

Brandon Davis Wells 17:01

What did your family think of this at this point?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 17:05

Oh, that again, Yeah that, that was I think it was all up to me. I don't think they-

Brandon Davis Wells 17:12

Yeah

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 17:12

they thought of it. I, I- which like you said- They could also see the benefits

Brandon Davis Wells 17:16

Yeah, it can be super helpful. So it, It can be super helpful and at the same time-

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 17:20

yeah

Brandon Davis Wells 17:20

you'd be like, "Would you just tell me w- like, what you think?"

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 17:22

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think with my maybe middle brother was like, "Okay, just go to the US. It's fun. It's gonna be great, a different experience. You can come back and do your master's here and, that degree will always, be waiting for you, but this opportunity might not present itself again."

Brandon Davis Wells 17:38

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 17:39

But I think also I was thinking culturally speaking, and again, like reflecting on those events that I attended and seeing how American students, were, exhibiting not just the confidence, but also the love of what they were doing versus, looking at my K-12 experience as a student in Morocco. So I wanted to see something different. I wanted to come and come to the US. And I knew this because I from my conversations with my professors too American universities or, UK universities they're not just universities for, domestic students. There are opportunities to meet people from around the world. You can go to India and study in an Indian school, but most, most likely you're gonna be mingling with Indian schools- Yeah Indian students, right?

Brandon Davis Wells 18:27

Yeah, when I studied-

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 18:28

which is fine, but-

Brandon Davis Wells 18:29

No, you're right yeah, but- I studied at Cardiff the University of Cardiff for a semester, and one of my closest friends was from South Africa, right? And you're like, th- this is- That experience alone opened my eyes.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 18:41

Yeah. And yeah, the US also the, you have the opportunity to meet with people from all over the world, not... as faculty as students administrators. So it is that in a, it is that melting pot in a way, right?

Brandon Davis Wells 18:53

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 18:53

Where, especially in a higher ed environment where there's a lot of tolerance, there's a lot of understanding, and there's also a desire to learn about other people. Yeah. And I don't think you see that in other fields.

Brandon Davis Wells 19:05

Nope.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 19:07

But I think it's embedded in the ethos of higher education to have the open mind to respect and learn about other people's cultures. I met classmates from all over the world, Denmark, Sweden, Norway Nepal Pakistan Vietnam India South America, Brazil, Colombia- Argentina. And I never, met those people before and, it's all in a small- Yeah liberal arts college and that was mind-blowing because I... it's like having the UN in one-

Brandon Davis Wells 19:42

Yeah

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 19:43

one campus.

Brandon Davis Wells 19:44

And this might be a leading question. How can the United States educational system, whether it's higher ed in general, do a better job of making that a priority for people?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 19:59

I think it, it all starts with what principles we value, what principles we see as priorities, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's super important. Intercultural exchange or intercultural understanding, I don't think is one of the top priorities. It might be something that individual teachers do, right?

Brandon Davis Wells 20:20

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 20:20

Because they themselves individually think it's important, especially in small towns, like Ashland, for example. You have to have that individual initiative. Or maybe if you get a wave of immigrants and then the school, the school or the school district starts learning about that population, then they design something. But-

Brandon Davis Wells 20:43

Yeah

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 20:43

if if they're not really prompted by immediate interaction it takes more than just, following what we follow to to develop opportunities that can teach kids about that. But I wa- wanna say one thing about languages. I think-

Brandon Davis Wells 20:57

Yeah

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 20:57

I think we're too, we don't really give languages a lot of importance in our K-12. Yeah. I think we're... We wait too long- To teach kids other languages. I think once you hit middle school, our lin- linguistic understanding is almost fossilized especially if you wanna get to that native language proficiency- Versus other languages. And again, like when I mentioned private schools in Morocco, now there's a huge, And I understand this is prompted by economic stability and success. Whereas in America, if you... All you need to speak is English. You don't need any other language to do well in life, right? In other countries, that's not the case. So the case of Morocco, you have to be fluent in several languages to, to land those important jobs, right? Yeah. If you want,

Brandon Davis Wells 21:43

You make a great point. No, you ma- that's a great point, because I think there's, and I'll say it, you don't have to say it. I'll say it, and it's easier for me to say, is that I think there's a piece of it that probably is patriotism gone wrong or nationalism, whatever you wanna call it here. For us, sometimes it says we... English, this is our..." A- and I say that carefully. But understanding that economically, you're right, it's not as important here for folks to, to know those multiple languages. It is culturally. It is. As we become more of a melting pot, as more people come, like- Sure it does become more important. Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 22:16

Yeah, sure. Now in private schools in Morocco it's very competitive in to the degree that y- if you send your school your kid to preschool, they're learning languages.

Brandon Davis Wells 22:27

Huh. Wow.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 22:28

They're learning English, French, Spanish, Arabic yeah, from preschool. And it's amazing. At the age of... It, it might seem that the kids struggle initially-

Brandon Davis Wells 22:40

Yeah

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 22:40

to but there's a lot of translanguaging that happens. S- kids speak French and English at the same time or, you know-

Brandon Davis Wells 22:46

Yeah

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 22:46

mix up things. But at a certain point in their elementary school career, they start, reaching the- Yeah the proficiency level needed in each of those languages. So by, by the time they hit middle school, they're fluent in several languages. So you get that, and then if you look at middle school in the US, most schools, not all, but most, especially in public school systems. You have kids still, learning the ABCs in French or Spanish, still looking at the basic elements of language.

Brandon Davis Wells 23:18

Pretty basic. Yeah. So you end up here. You end up taking this opportunity in the States. What, how did that go? What was that like? A- and now you're thinking, "Okay. Do I want, do I wanna stay in the United States when I'm done with this? Do I wanna go back to Morocco? Do I wanna go to Europe?" You have options I imagine. What are you thinking at that point?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 23:37

Yeah. I finished my degree in communication. I was not really a superstar student. My GPA was great, but not, I was not... That was not really my priority at that point. I think I was, again more interested in the culture- Yeah interested in learning more about, about the language itself, learning about people. But I did okay, so I finished my degree, my second BA. And then I went back to Morocco and I taught in a, an international K12 school- In Tangier very north of Morocco for a semester, I had, I think, what was it? I think I was teaching first grade class. Yeah, it was first grade class that was very heterogeneous very diverse in the linguistic makeup and the experiences the students had. I had kids who grew up in the UK, and the kids who grew up in Indonesia-

Brandon Davis Wells 24:34

Oh

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 24:34

kids who were born in Belgium. So some kids who spoke perfect English, other kids spoke zero English.

Brandon Davis Wells 24:41

Wow.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 24:41

And all I was given was a textbook, and it was like, "Hey, good luck."

Brandon Davis Wells 24:45

There you go, Doc. And- There you go, Mohsine. Good luck

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 24:48

yeah. During that time I learned that the director was really a manager, not really a director, someone who has zero experience, zero credentials in education.

Brandon Davis Wells 25:00

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 25:01

So I was not really happy with that experience. And also moving back to Morocco not being close to my parents, and at that time I, I just got married to my wife Sarah. I wanted to be close to my family again, and so I went back to Kenitra, and she joined me. She came back and joined me here for almost two years. Joined me in Morocco for almost two years. And then I it was not really long before, after that s- one semester at that international K12 school, I found another job in my hometown as communicational English instructor a- and later director of studies at a language school. So it was it was a school that specialized in business English, so it was a different type of experience.

Brandon Davis Wells 25:49

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 25:50

And my portion of that, that that work was to improve the communicational English program.

Brandon Davis Wells 25:57

Oh.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 25:59

That, that was amazing because I was working with different caliber of people. So we had generals in the Army who were trying to learn English. I had, business people trying to learn English,

Brandon Davis Wells 26:07

yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 26:08

I had adults. I worked with middle grades students, high school students, but mostly adults, and that was an amazing experience. Just, I loved the culture in that school. I think I had more I don't wanna say freedom, but I, I had more space to create, not just teach.

Brandon Davis Wells 26:25

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 26:25

And I appreciated that.

Brandon Davis Wells 26:28

So what led you from there back to the United States?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 26:32

So my wife had to finish her degrees.

Brandon Davis Wells 26:34

Oh, okay.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 26:35

She was still in nursing school, so we had to come back. And I came back in 2010. That was my first time in Ashland. Not really my first time visiting Ashland, but my first time living in Ashland, 2010. And I was not really thinking about staying in, in Ashland. That was not really an idea that I seriously entertained. I was applying for jobs all over, big cities. I did some internships back in the day when I was a student at Denison. I did the, An internship at political center in DC one summer, and I lived in one summer in DC, and I loved DC so that was- Yeah again, just like that melting pot, a lot of different cultures. It was a special time in my life. So I was applying for jobs there, jobs in New York City, all the big cities thinking maybe this is where I wanna be at. But and then, like I got some offers, and you entry-level offers, and then you look at the quality of life, you look at standard of living, compared to the salary that you might earn. And, housing and it did not make any sense to me, so I was like, "Oh, no, this is not gonna-" I'm gonna have a full-time job with some benefits, but we're gonna struggle, so

Brandon Davis Wells 27:49

Yeah. We're gonna sink, yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 27:50

Yeah. And also I was thinking because my two years I lived in Kenitra, and Kenitra is not really a small city. Okay. So it's, right now it's over a million people living- Wow in, in Kenitra. It's densely populated. So and then I was thinking, "Do I really wanna do that too?"

Brandon Davis Wells 28:05

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 28:05

Go into a big city like New York where you might spend one hour just to get to your workplace.

Brandon Davis Wells 28:11

That's rough. I

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 28:11

don't- Is that- it depends on the person is

Brandon Davis Wells 28:13

that really worth- yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 28:13

Yeah. Yeah. Is that really worth it, right? Again, like you get to that point, you're not sure. You're thinking about different things. And I meet this person and she says, "Oh, okay. What did you do in Morocco?" And I said, "Okay. I taught communication English, and I also, helped with curriculum development, this and that." And she said, "Oh, you know what? The ACCESS program at Ashland University, they're looking for someone, and you would be perfect for this job since you can speak Arabic." I was like, "Okay, I didn't see any postings online, but no, no worries. I can go and,

Brandon Davis Wells 28:47

That, that's a good, that's a good point, though, like- "Give it to my team." to folks out there, is that sometimes jobs are, they're posted or they're posted at a point, but your network is almost always your best-

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 28:57

Absolutely, yeah

Brandon Davis Wells 28:58

approach to finding the right fit.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 29:00

Yeah. It's all about building that network. It's not really about applying. I think I would say, I don't know what the research says, but less than 25%-

Brandon Davis Wells 29:08

Yeah

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 29:08

of jobs are People get those jobs through ap- the traditional application, but maybe- Yeah 70 to 75% is through the network, the networks that we build. So I met Christine Reinhart the former ACCESS director, and she was like, "Okay when can you start?" That was her question. She was so happy. Back then we had a very robust ACCESS program with a lot of mainly from Saudi Arabia. And there were a lot of cultural miscommunication- Yeah instances happening-

Brandon Davis Wells 29:41

Sure

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 29:42

between, the ACCESS instructors the leadership. So didn't know what to do with a lot of those students coming from a different culture.

Brandon Davis Wells 29:49

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 29:50

So yeah, and I said, "Yeah, sure. I can do this. Yeah. This is exciting." So that's what really kept us in Ashland. Also, my wife's family is from Ashland, so we wanted our kids to grow up next to family. If you go to, let's say, DC or New York or- Yeah wherever you end up, and then you're really uprooting them from the only family that they have in the US, right?

Brandon Davis Wells 30:13

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 30:14

And then the other family is across the ocean somewhere else in a different continent, so

Brandon Davis Wells 30:21

Your journey is fascinating, and I think you probably have some ideas about what do American students in your... you've dealt with folks from all over, but what do you think American students misunderstand about career decisions or success or calling? Do you have any thoughts on that?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 30:38

I don't know if they misunderstand. I think maybe a different type of understanding. I think right now, especially historically speaking, we're in at a moment where, historical moment where people are motivated by for, solid reasons, motivated by that financial stability. There is that pressure, too, and they understand higher education in the US is not cheap, right? It's a huge investment, and parents want their kids to get it right. You go to the college, you better know what you wanna do with your life, 30 years from now. Yeah.

Brandon Davis Wells 31:10

That's

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 31:10

true. So maybe that's what's lacking at this point, so you have that sense of exploration-

Brandon Davis Wells 31:15

Yeah

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 31:15

that we don't really have. You have students who were there, first year. You might get students who are not sure what they wanna do. We call them deciding students, so they're still deciding. But that's completely fine.

Brandon Davis Wells 31:26

I always use the term exploring. I would tell them w- when I was-

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 31:29

Exploring. I love that

Brandon Davis Wells 31:31

you're a free agent. You're exploring your options. I love that. Yeah. 'Cause undecided even just sounds ah, just-

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 31:36

Yeah. It's pressure. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you're in that moment where you're making that big decision- Yeah and you're staying in that moment. So that pressure stays with you. Continuously.

Brandon Davis Wells 31:44

Yeah. I dealt with a lot

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 31:45

of students there. I love the word, the term exploring. Okay. Yeah. I'm gonna start using that. I'll cite you.

Brandon Davis Wells 31:49

There you go. Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm sure I stole it from somebody else. Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 31:54

So yeah, there's nothing wrong with exploring, but here's the thing. I think we get a lot of students with now, with CCP credits that- They exhausted that exploration maybe, Yeah exploration phase. So when they come they want... they know what they want. And that's fine, I think. There's nothing wrong with that if you know what you want and you love- what you wanna do.

Brandon Davis Wells 32:13

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 32:13

That's fine. But I think there is some value to exploring, especially at the stage of especially during your time at university level.

Brandon Davis Wells 32:22

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 32:22

That's when high school students leave high school, right?

Brandon Davis Wells 32:25

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 32:25

Leave the comfort of home, and now for the very first time maybe in their lives, they are at that, independent stage where they are exploring things. They are, you know, reading about things, they are learning from their professors and, seeing what's out there, and that's okay maybe the first two years when you go, when you take your core courses or general education courses, for example and explore, see what, where you might find your passion, something that you'd be doing maybe 10, 15, 20 years from that time and still feel the passion and be happy with what you're doing and satisfied with what you're doing. I think that satisfaction point is super important maybe we don't really think about, right?

Brandon Davis Wells 33:07

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 33:07

Most of the time, young folks think about, okay, this is a very reputable job or it comes with a high salary or what have you, but we don't really think about that satisfaction. Are you gonna be happy in what you're doing? Are you gonna think it's... When you're, retiring at that stage, you're not really exploring anymore. You're retiring.

Brandon Davis Wells 33:27

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 33:27

When you sit down, af- you're ready to retire, hopefully, have the means to retire.

Brandon Davis Wells 33:32

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 33:32

When you sit down in your, front porch and drink your cold lemonade and- reminisce on your career, and are you gonna be happy with what you did, the difference that you've made, right?

Brandon Davis Wells 33:45

It's a great question. I- has your understanding of career and even significance or enjoy- or appreciating it been influenced by your faith your Islamic faith? Has that been part of your journey? What would you speak to with that?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 33:59

I know, absolutely. I think that as a Muslim, obviously with all faiths, the idea is that you you gotta be doing what's right. What is not just good for you, but for other people leaving the world in a better place than you, you found it at. So there's that idea and also the idea of work is a form of worship. So there is prayer in the traditional sense where you go to a mosque or synagogue or temple or church, right? You pray. But also there's the worship that you embody through the work that you do. And I think that it comes from the idea of being conscientious of a higher being. Again it ties well with the idea of satisfaction. Yeah. Are you really deeply, internally happy with what you've done,

Brandon Davis Wells 34:52

yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 34:53

Or do you feel any guilt, right? There are a lot of career choices that people might choose, no judgment, but, maybe again, like at that age when you're... In that retirement age when you sit down and think about what you did, how would you feel? Do you feel like you, you did good work? Did you help people? Did you leave the world in a better place than you found it? So it, it does motivate me and again, like doing our best. And my father always said this "Even if you don't, even if you don't, do the greatest thing in the world," just like what we, what you do, what you're tasked of doing, "do you do it to the best of your ability?" And if you do, when you put your head down on that pillow and think about the work that you did, if you did your best, then, that, that's all that matters. Maybe if you make mistakes, you can go back and think about those mistakes and see how you can make it better next time. But it's al- always about not really choosing those shortcuts. I think that kind of, marked my career at different, places. And I'm happy to say that, wherever I went, I kinda left that mark where people were satisfied and were appreciative of the work that I've done. So it's not just about I'm gonna work from, 9:00 to 5:00 and I'm gonna do that list that you gave me, the checklist. I'm gonna, okay done, go home. But how can I make this more meaningful for the people around me or for who- whomever benefits from, whoever benefits from that service?

Brandon Davis Wells 36:27

You answered my next couple questions, which is like- Oh. all wrapped up right there. I was gonna ask, like, how do you hope students or colleagues feel after an interaction with you? And you just said it. I don't need to ask it. So- but, I'll give you one more question here.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 36:42

Yes, sir

Brandon Davis Wells 36:43

what final piece of wisdom would you leave with somebody trying to figure out what to do with their career, whether they are Moroccan, American, British, Indian, Nigerian? What is a universal thread that you think you could share with people that you've learned?

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 37:03

That's a really good question. So One thing is be patient explore. Many times, especially in our early years we think that, you have to decide now, you have to... it's like there's a ticking clock, but in the grand scheme of things, I think being patient and doing the hard things. Again, like the short- avoiding those shortcuts. You don't wanna, "Okay, I'm gonna do this because I'm gonna earn this much money now, and I'm gonna be happy," but, work can be meaningful and important, but it should not really, one thing is it should not carry your worth. The full weight of your identity. And I think this is how some people, inflate their worth, who they are with how much money they make, so when it does, any disruption at work starts to feel like a disruption of your worth, right?

Brandon Davis Wells 37:59

Yeah.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 38:00

And that is when burnout and disconnection set in. You are more than what you produce, and your value is not measured by your output. Sure. So balance is not really about giving e- giving equal time to everything. It's about not losing yourself in any one role. So- That's a good word Think about what brings you happiness. Think about what you can do, with passion, do with honesty, with integrity. And deep down you're happy. And it doesn't matter what people, think 'cause even your family might give you bad advice. You might, "Oh no, you shouldn't go to master's. Oh, who goes to master's? And you do not need to earn a master's degrees. All you need is a YouTube channel, and, you can post about your food," whatever. "And make a lot of money." But, again, like at that age of retirement, you're gonna be happy, looking down, reflecting on those moments.

Brandon Davis Wells 38:50

I love this so much, and you know why, Mohsine? Because I have sat in this chair and talked to people from all kinds of different backgrounds and faiths, and almost to a T, they come back to what you've just said. And I think that really hits at the heart of what I want people to get out of this podcast. And because it's also something that I have to remind myself. And so whereas it might be the main- Very good thread of The Caller ID Podcast, it's something that I have to remind myself constantly, and I think it's why people need to keep hearing this message, right? Because-

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 39:23

Yeah

Brandon Davis Wells 39:23

there are times where everything aligns well and I feel good about it, and then when things go astray with a career, a job a relationship, those things don't necessarily define who we are. I appreciate your- I really appreciate your time today. For folks out there if you're interested, Dr. Bensaid works at Ashland University. I know my daughter is one of his students, and she has Wonderful she- Yeah. Thank you very much.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 39:47

Wonderful human being.

Brandon Davis Wells 39:48

Thank you. Yeah. She gets it from her mother most of it- Yeah I'll just say it that way. Thank you so much for your time, doc.

Dr. Mohsine Bensaid 39:54

Yeah. Thank you, Brandon. Appreciate it.

Speaker 40:05

Thanks for listening to the Caller ID podcast. Please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe with all of your friends on all of your social media platforms. Thanks again. Signing off, Brandon Davis Wells