Episode 14 DWP- All About Axis Deer w/ Chris Methner

The Deer Wizard podcast has our friend Chris Methner back on the pod to discuss Axis deer and the growing demand for these animals and what the future market may bring.

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This podcast is built around real-world experience, collaboration with producers and veterinarians, and nearly three decades of hands-on work across North America. The goal is simple: provide practical insight that helps producers make better decisions for herd health, genetics, and long-term success. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Deer Wizard Podcast conversation shaping the deer industry. I'm your host, Josh Newton the Deer Wizard. Through interviews, advocacy, and industry news, we deliver field-proven insights to help producers build better herds. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the Deer Wizard Podcast. Axis Deer. Yeah. Axis deer are one of the most fascinating species in North American servant industry. Originally native to India, they've become firmly established in the United States, especially across Texas, where they've developed into a thriving exotic deer market. What started primarily as hunting ranch species has evolved into serious breeding business with producers focusing on genetics, herd development, and expanding opportunities within the exotic served market. Axis also bring a completely different biology compared to whitetails. They're capable of breeding year-round, which changes how producers think about herd management and production. Today we're joined by my buddy from Blessed Bio, Chris Maffner, to talk about the growth of the Axis deer market in the United States, what it takes to raise them successfully, and where the Axis breeding business may be headed in the future. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Chris, welcome back to the Deer Wizard Podcast. Thank you, man. I'm excited to be back. Yeah, no, it's it's good to have you on. Um, you know, we did uh we did a show talking bass. I want to shift gears and I want to talk about some deer. Um this show's gonna be a little different. We're we're not gonna we're gonna touch on some whitales, but uh I want to learn about Axis deer. It's it's uh it's not a totally foreign species to me, but I I'm just not I'm not versed on the the Axis uh deer business and you know really the species. So give us a little background into um your your uh consulting business and and we'll get into the the breeding side of things and where we're at today.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

Yeah, so our on the wildlife management side, we we try to cover just about every aspect of of wildlife management, you know, and and wildlife ranching, um, all the way from the real estate transactions to the development of the property, habitat work, and um everything that goes into that, travel corridors and nutrition and and genetics and um all the way through. And so with that, that's kind of what sprung um you know, selectively breeding access here, because the properties that I manage, I want to be able to offer the best I can of the species, you know, and and access kind of the uh you know, whitetail's king down here, and but access is right below them as far as popularity goes, and and then table fair as well. And so they uh but uh so yeah, so we just you know, as far as wildlife management goes, we try to cover just about every aspect of it.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Nice. Um Whitetail is king, whitetail will always be king. I'm just gonna put that out out for that. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Um that's right.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

So so uh I've seen Axis deer. I don't um I don't know how to evaluate them because I'm not really uh familiar with like the antler configuration. Um walk us through what that looks like when you're evaluating an Axis deer, even maybe the origins of the Axis deer, where it came from, why Texas is the place for it, etc.

SPEAKER_04 3:44

Yeah, yeah. So they uh they came over from India. Um and uh you know they're they're a hardy species, they can browse and they can graze, you know. Whereas you know, whitetail um don't have the proper enzymes to digest grass very well. Uh where Axis they can take advantage of both. And so uh, you know, they've done very well in Texas and and they're very popular, but they uh they generally drop singles versus doubles. But the from what I've seen out of them, the mortality rates are so low, um they keep up, right? And so um when we first started, uh, you know, we I I didn't know much about them other than I thought they were really cool species and and I like them a lot. Uh but we just looked at you know antler traits and said, man, you know, we need some big framed main beam, you know, wide bucks. And so as we dove into it, you start really kind of trying to fine-tune that and figure out what traits make uh the highest scoring animals and those things. And and kind of what we learned is is it everybody judges axis down here at least, or not everybody, but you generally when they describe an axis buck, they say, hey, he's a 34-inch axis buck, which they're just talking about main beam length only, uh, or he's 32 or he's 40 is like crazy exception. Uh and you you would hear a lot about 40-inch bucks, but I've seen they never pulled the tape. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right, yeah, yeah. There's very few, you know, and so um, which, you know, that's one of the traits, right? But well, kind of what we learned is uh, you know, generally your highest scoring bucks have the longest tines and may not have that 38-inch main beam. Um, but uh so we really that you basically you generally have a brow tine and then what they call a caudal, which is a second tyne off the main beam there. And uh finding long caudals was the the hardest trait to to really locate is is something that and and once you start, I don't know if it's just me, maybe I you know, once I started searching for that, yeah, it just now it's the most beautiful trait on the deer to me. And and uh so it's so I was so we started really trying to select it, right? Like big wide frames with long caudals and long brows and breeding those kind of traits into them. And so uh it's it's evolved into that very you know, going from hey, that's a big deer look walking across the pasture to hey, man, he's got 13-inch caudals and you know, and you know, it's this wide, and that's yeah, you know, that's an exceptional animal.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

All right, because I've never scored a an Axis deer. Uh, I'm gonna put the pieces together and then you're gonna fill in the places I miss. So we got main beam lengths, yeah. We got the browtime lengths, we got the caudals, and you have an inside measurement. Where is the inside measurement taken? Tip to tip on the beams? Widest point, widest point, which is yeah, could be the the tips, but it's the widest point. And then how do this like their circumferences? How many of those do you get?

SPEAKER_04 6:56

There's two, yeah. So you in the the base is actually around the the burr. Okay, and then you go up and take another one.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

So the uh the second one's in between the brow time and the caudal, half halfway, I'm assuming. Yeah, okay. So there's not a lot there to score.

SPEAKER_04 7:12

No, no, if you like a hundred and seventy-inch axis is really big, 180 inch is absolutely huge.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Just to give you some thoughts, because they're six, they're just six, they're set. What yeah, they're six points, basically. They have six point points. They're six points, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:28

And there are some with extras, obviously. It's kind of rare, but yeah, uh, but not all, you know. Generally, they're a six-point animal. That's great.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Yeah. Um, so when you uh like I how big are these guys? Like how big are your kind of bigger body males? Where do they weigh in at?

SPEAKER_04 7:47

They're uh like an older mature would it's kind of similar to a white tail. I mean, they're down well white tail down.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

A white a white tail in Texas or Pennsylvania?

SPEAKER_04 7:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Texas, yeah, definitely not Pennsylvania. Yeah, yeah. But they, I mean, 200 pounds would be a large male. Okay. Uh, I think the majority are you the at least that I have are 160 to 180, probably.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

And so those matures would be like four years old or older, basically.

SPEAKER_04 8:12

Yeah, I think more, yeah. They so it's so early in this uh breeding industry that yeah, the largest bucks are still in the pasture.

unknown 8:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 8:21

You know what I mean? And so yeah, and they're they're uh they're very stress-prone animals, even more so than a whitetail. And so you know, converting a pasture uh breeder buck into a you know a breeding facility is not easy, you know. It's uh uh it's a it's an interesting process, but but yeah, so they uh I guess what I'm trying to say is it it's it takes a lot more to breed them than you know just hey, chunking them in a pen and and they're good to go. Like you can go catch this big buck on the pasture and keep them alive and uh with a helicopter and you know, and and get him into a breeder pen, and he's gonna be fine. And so it it uh like I said, the biggest bucks are probably still out in pasture.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Gotcha. Uh what does diet look like in uh in a uh breeding facility?

SPEAKER_04 9:13

Yeah, so it's a pelleted ration. Uh it's actually the same pellet ration we use for whitetail, um a little bit lower protein, uh, but the uh and then we have they graze, and so we have pens with grass in them, and then we usually feed hay year-round as well.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

So it's it's similar, like they seem to do well with the call it the traditional whitetail diet. That's correct. So so it's uh that that's interesting because like I I I try to I try to go through every show and and say CWD one time, um just because like that is the the main impetus of our our uh our pain, I think, from a regulatory side in in the deer world. Um so the conversion, obviously, we've seen a ton of attrition because of chronic waste and disease regulations, especially in in Texas where you are, and so the transition from you know whitetail pasture, um, and maybe adding access in as opposed to continuing in the the whitetail space, I think has picked up a little bit. Is that accurate? Yeah, and so it's an easy transition for for property owners. Sure, absolutely gotcha. Um, have you like uh I suspect uh reproductive work is starting to pick up with artificial insemination and possible embryo work and stuff like that. Are you guys doing some of that? What is that?

SPEAKER_04 10:38

No, we've only live covered so far. Now, there are some guys that have, um and you know, I think success obviously was poor at first, but it seems that with some bottle-raised females, uh at least you know, you hear that they're they're doing better. But for us, um we have collected the very best breeder bucks we can possibly collect and and are depending on live breeding at this point. Yeah. I I think eventually we'll you know start dabbling into some AI work, but really, you know, I'm satisfied with what we are breeding, you know, sour-wise. So I don't really have a uh a need to right now, you know, and and and I'm not sure there's so many unknowns, yeah, but uh, you know, I'm not sure what it does to their cycle, and and there's there's there's enough there that you know, like I said, if long as I'm happy with what I'm breeding, I'm I'm okay with life covering.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Well walk us through the uh the breeding cycle.

SPEAKER_04 11:38

You know, they uh so we didn't I didn't know anything about their cycles uh going into this, but from what I can tell, uh they'll continually cycle as long as there's a sire there. And so like for example, uh I've got a like a 50-acre buck pasture, and I've kicked a couple of the real wild does out there that don't want in the breeder facility. Uh, and and I watched them fawn and you know, somewhere between that 25 to 30 days uh uh time frame, you see are getting chased. And uh so and so I think it's it's year-round. Um and I think it's probably right in there in the upper 20s, you know, is when they'll they'll cycle again. Uh now we what we have done in our breeder program there, you have so with that, you have bucks that are hard horned at different times of the year. And obviously, hunting down here in the summer is is way too hot, you know. It's not desirable, right? And and there seems to be a large deficit in big winter bucks, bucks that are hardhorn during the winter time, normal hunting, whitetail season, you know. And so we've tried we're cycling our doughs or we're putting bucks on our doughs, uh, like in early fall to try to produce make sure their offspring are winter bucks.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

What is gestation? It's about eight months, a little bit longer than white tail. Okay. So like 220-ish. Yeah. 30-ish days. Um, so so it uh sorry. You have winter bucks and summer bucks. I this is foreign to me. What is what is that?

SPEAKER_04 13:23

Yeah, so uh you'll have bucks that are. I mean, like even in my 50 acre pressure, there's bucks that are hardhorn right now, and there's bucks that just dropped antlers, and there's bucks that are 60 grown. That that's the one good thing about it is you know how exciting it is in the whitetail breeding.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

So you just get it 365. You're like, come on, bring it on. Yeah, it's pretty fun.

SPEAKER_04 13:47

But uh, but like I said, on the we are now as as it evolves. I've taken a bunch of bucks that I felt like had potential, make a breeder that were wild-caught and put them in that 50-acre pasture to kind of get them adapted to to our facility or our area, right? And uh and used to you know, some equipment and things going around to where I can convert them into a breeder pin if if need be. Uh, and so there that's why there's so many different growth cycles in there. But uh if we've got it figured out on cycling thoughs and bucks, and hopefully the majority of our bucks will be hardhorn in the winter.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Gotcha. Yeah, I suspect that's desirable. I mean, every everything we're doing for we're essentially doing for stocking and and the and the hunting world, you know, people like all these animals uh eventually will be be harvested and and eaten.

SPEAKER_04 14:44

Um and a big part down here in the white tail and the axis, you know, like for what I do, um, you know, our a big part of what we do is is improving the genetic pool or establishing the genetic pool with improved genetics. And so utilizing bread doughs uh is something even in the axis, that's where most of my clientele, you know, they'll buy they want to purchase bread doughs, uh, and and their bread are you know, these bigger sires, and and just try to improve that genetic pool there, you know, and and so that's a big part of of what goes on there and a big part of the market. Uh, and then usually we'll put a buck on those those, you know. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

So how how how long uh is this uh is this like uh this is relatively new, right? So you know how how long has uh you know access breeding and the capacity that you're talking about been going on, really?

SPEAKER_04 15:41

I think there's probably was uh were a handful of guys doing it for numerous years, but um to this capacity for most people, you know, I don't think five years maybe super super new. Yeah, yeah. There's a few guys that that, like I said, have been doing it for a very long time. But uh, I think we've been doing it for three, and uh, and there's there's not a whole lot of access breeders out there, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

So um so you said 180 is a giant. Uh-huh. We've seen what whitetails can do, we've seen what L can do, we've seen what red deer can do. What's the what's the top in the access world? Where do you see it gone? It's two hundred two hundred.

SPEAKER_04 16:25

Yeah, that would be great. Yeah, yeah. It'll be how big is that? That's huge.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

I mean, that would be just uh talking like 40 45s on the beams and 50 inches wide with 15, 16-inch coddles and same on brows or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 16:43

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that that would just be a you know, phenomenally. That would be a phenomenal animal. But uh, but we'll see. You know, I there's so many unknowns, and and I think you know, a lot of your biggest access bucks right now, this probably the way the white tail was early, early on, you know, that they're they're old. I mean, they're like, I think they're seven and eight, maybe nine. I mean, they're they're older deer. And so even your you know, early maturing genetics, it's gonna take us a long time to to really dial some of that in and um and dial in like we talked about on the fish, the maternal lines, and it that just takes a you know, it takes forever. But it's still it's what's intriguing about it. Like, you know, if you can build an original line that that you believe, you know, you you know how I mean very passionate about genetics, and um if you can build a line that you believe is one of the best out there, that's that's intriguing. Yeah, it is. Um it's something you offer your clients, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Right. Uh do you think like are you like are you actively working and kind of specializing in that that space? Do you think that's where the the future is for you?

SPEAKER_04 17:59

What's that?

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Genetic improvement, access, yeah, genetic improvement and access tier.

SPEAKER_04 18:04

Yeah, yeah. That's I mean, that's it's one portion of it. You know, it what kind of stemmed it for me was um my goal in the long term is to purchase properties, develop it into a wildlife ranch, and sell it as a all in-house, right? That's that's kind of where I want to be eventually. Uh, and with that, I want to stock those properties with something nobody else has, from the fish to the axis to the white tail, everything, you know, and uh and it kind of what I would envision there is it hopefully would take off, you know, it'd be a branded type thing. Like, hey, you know, they put this together, and this is some of the best genetics in all these species that you could possibly get a hold of, but I'm producing it myself, you know what I mean? And so that's kind of what stems it for me. Uh and and in the meantime, you know, like uh my customer base, that's who purchases our bread dough access. I've only been selling, I mean, really, last year was the first year started selling bread doughs. Um, and I there was a I mean, we sold everything we wanted to sell, and I have it will come up just like a whitetail, you try to move them the second trimester, and so here pretty soon we'll be moving bread doughs again, and and we've got commitments on the majority of those. And so it's it's been there's been a really good response to it, which I was really kind of unsure what that would be. Um, but people seem to to want improved genetics on axes, and like I said, they seem to be as far as popularity, right below a whitetail.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

So we're stalking 20-pound bass and 200-inch axis deer.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

One day you're like, You're speaking my language, dude. I like it. That would be awesome. Um so what is uh, you know, as as access deer is is kind of new, there's there's obviously uh established other species to look at and say, okay, here's here's the marketplace for those. How does how is access different? Like, are there similarities? You know, like can we have specialty antler chandeliers with these these access deer, right? Obviously, they have beautiful uh coats, right? They're very different from almost every other species. Um, what are those kind of uh I call them functions, but like what are these uh smaller kind of ancillary uh pieces of the the access business that maybe you're starting to identify that can bring all in to have a little bit better profit margin on the animals?

SPEAKER_04 20:43

Yeah, uh really I haven't dove into that much. I mean, we've kind of stayed on the genetic improvement side, but I've thought uh you know, just thought process-wise is is um I think off air you mentioned that you know how popular the meat is. It's incredibly popular, and then most people rank it as number one. And then is there a way to to uh you know create a processed animal, you know, that you know, for for food consumption? I think that would be something intriguing. I I I haven't dove into that very deep. Uh I could see a scenario where if if you're able to graze um access and grow them, you know, that that may be profitable. I don't know. Um but but uh I I've put a little bit of thought process into that. Just like I said, it mine I primarily stay on providing properties with improved genetics, sure where my whole push is being.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Yeah, and that I mean that makes sense. It's it's um it's it has the most kind of long term viability because it's it's new, right? Um and there there will be, like any other market, there has to be maturation, right? Yeah, the the access uh genetic market will look very different in 10 years uh than it does does today and um texas is a big place and i said now like will these like what is the range uh like do you think physically for for this animal like can i raise them where i am no i you know they don't seem to they do not like cold weather so that they would have a really hard time up there uh but you did mention that i guess a guy a friend of yours has some up on the the new york line is that what you no he sh he he went down to texas and and oh gotcha and uh one here down uh down in texas and brought me some meat meat back and that was the first time i had it so yeah yeah yeah gotcha gotcha yeah so yeah that that would be uh so um so it's a southern range just simply due to to temperature tolerances yeah um and and but most of the axes in texas are are west there you don't see many axes in east texas and and or and there's some south but um but we've you know i'm in southeast texas obviously and so uh they've done very well you know and and i have not had any issues so far uh and so uh but as far as free ranging access go the majority are are kind of in the hill country area and junction sonora uh that's where you see a lot of the biggest bucks rock springs uh out in that country they have them in uh mexico as well I bet they do yeah I don't know for sure though to be honest interesting yeah I wonder um I suspect they do really well over into New Mexico and and you know Arizona Southern California yeah probably yeah I would I would think so um you th you do you think we'll start seeing them stretch east across a lot of the Gulf states um yeah I mean uh like I there's um a few guys in Florida that are kind of tinkering with breeding them you know and and I think that like that state in particular they would just do phenomenal in you know and uh and I could see where uh you know I think their whitetail you know hunting operations do very well down there but as far as an entertainment aspect you know having access as well I think would would be great so yeah I think you've seen it stretch somewhat uh east and and there's a little bit in Louisiana it seems like but not a untremendous amount we do get quite a few calls uh from guys out of Louisiana with wildlife ranches that that won't you know access deer and so yeah I mean I think the popularity's there and as long as the temperatures are conducive to them then and I think they they definitely could spread all over. Yeah I always think about the uh I always think about the Gulf states you know in the Whitale world um like Georgia and Mississippi are are kind of non-existent right it's uh it's all old grandfathered places um there's some big ranches in there but they're not that they're they're existing from 40 years ago and you know they're not they're not into the they're not into the specific kind of genetic improvement that that um you and I kind of specialize in right um it would be interesting to see uh those those states right especially Georgia and Mississippi I mean they have huge whitetail populations you know they're they're million plus states somewhere around there um and if they have the if they have the climate for it I just think the Gulf states generally like they're kind of uniquely positioned. Maybe not this week uh if you're if you're listening or watching uh it's pretty much gold across the country this week and um what'd you say it was 20 20 degrees at your place yeah we were 23 this morning 20 23 um yeah not going to the beach and doing doing any red fishing today in that's right in uh southeast texas but uh I I I think the Gulf states offer a lot in the way of of servid reproduction and and and breeding and and management so it'd be cool to see those those things kind of pick up a little bit um now how does so I I I've seen the I've seen the fallow market kind of take off a bit in um in Texas and and again all this kind of stems around the regulatory environment is there do you think there's uh I know they're different but like is there competition between like access and and fallow as far as like the the the genetic improvement side and the breeder side or what does that look like you mean like competition between the breeders as far as no not the animals physically competing but like as far as like people breeding them and stocking them what do you think those those market dynamics could look like longer term?

SPEAKER_04 26:55

Well most people um at least most of the calls I get it's a most people want whitetail an exotics down here. And it's you know fallow are fairly popular Axis are popular Oryx are popular Gimsbok there's there's a handful of species black buck's another one and a lot of these guys want all of those right and so there's almost a little market for each species it seems like it just kind of depends on what you specialize in and where you sit in that market.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

You know I always felt like in any of those you really I wanted to be at the very top of them I just felt like you know first you want to be able to produce the very best you can possibly produce right but but it that's the safest place to be you know uh I think it opens up you know who you sell to and in your market right other breeders ranches and no matter what these ranch guys I mean they want the best of the best in many cases especially down here you know I don't know about the you know where you're at but it there's a lot of money in Texas and and so a lot of times finances are not the issue you know they pump it out of the ground that's right yeah shows up in the mailbox that's right that's right I like to yeah it's a it's a testament right because like you know people people with resources want to um they want to improve habitat they want to make sure that the legacy of these ranches is preserved and there's there's no better way to enjoy them with you know than with animals. Yeah I mean that's just like that's like the nature of of man I think you know we've been coexisting like since the beginning of time with animals. Yeah no you're right I'm glad you touched on that too because it you're exactly right it's not we've been talking about genetics and stock and species and things but there's so much more that goes into it than that and and I don't have a single customer that's not willing to do habitat improvement and and make sure that that these ranches are developed properly to to house these you know to to habit these species right and and so um there's like I said there's a lot of conservation effort in it and you know preserving the ranch and lifestyle it's a lot of it's shifted uh to wildlife you know and to whitetail and exotics and those things and so the exotic market is blown up down here and some of it has to do with the the whitetail hurting so bad but a lot of it doesn't I mean it's a there's a a strong demand for multiple species in the ranching world you know yeah it's it's um it's interesting when you kind of take a step back and and and look at it you know I think a lot of a lot of times uh game ranching is is misunderstood right and uh specifically on the conservation side there are cases where like we are working to conserve certain species right like that is conservation and uh but the the the second the second order effects of that end up being this like attention to improving habitat which has so many ramifications for almost all other species right like I I I remember this uh this the scene in the show Yellowstone sticks out right where Kevin Coster's the governor of Montana he walks in and he's got his cabinet people there and they're like he like picks up the paper and he says to the guy like there's a sage grouse restoration project and they're putting a solar farm in right and something something about the sage grouse population being you know down you know a million birds or whatever it was and he's like he's like what do you think's gonna happen to the sage grouse when you put the solar farm in and the guy the guy looks back at him and he's he says I'm paraphrasing he says um there's there's no study that says that this is going to affect the the population of the the sage grouse and he and Costner looks back and he's like what do they do with this with the sage to put the solar farm in and the guy's like well they they clear it where does the sage grouse live they live in this in the in the sage trees so if there's no sage trees there's no sage grouse and and then of course he fires the whole panel and he walks out and he's just like you know what's more scary to me than that statement was you thinking that was common sense and or something along those lines yeah and I I always kind of think about that and yeah I think about all the good work that you know various people like yourself are doing to to make sure that these properties are are set up not only for recreation but like that recreation is the the mechanism that provides for for all these other these other animals can you just kind of touch on maybe some of your thoughts on on what that is and what that looks like for you yeah I mean it um as you said it the more um I look at it the more acres dedicated to wildlife management the better right how does that work and uh obviously finances plays a big role in that it just does and and uh and so I think there has to be um a market for all this stuff right and and and and a lot of people I don't think want to hear that you know and you know you're selling animals you're you're doing this or that but that's what drives it and and uh the other thing is is property values and things of that nature right if if we develop a a wildlife ranch and it's stocked properly and it does this and that well there's a lot of value that comes up with that property you know and and you know transactions financial transactions things and so and even the the development of that property right like that's all it's primarily rural uh economic impacts right and so uh or running it from day to day even once the sale's over you know and and so um you know I look at it a lot of times as is you know how do you get the most acres dedicated to wildlife management first off and and what economic impact it has in the rural part of Texas or Louisiana or wherever we're working you know and and I believe it's great you know very uh high mountain and that's what's so scary about the white jelly and down here is you know in my mind uh there's not a greater management tool available for a landowner like if you know if I'm able to bring in bread dough with certain genetics for generations my production is going to be was going to increase tremendously and uh and but there's so much risk with it now it it's I I get every call I get they want those animals but I have to explain like this is realistically this is the risk and you know when you start talking about you know five ten twenty thirty forty million dollar properties um man it you know it's a tough decision for those guys and and it it risks those things and so what happens right like what if you know if the risk outweighs then what happens to that property I mean are they going to are they gonna you know dedicate it to a wildlife ranch and you know with the potential shooting 130 140 inch deer probably not you know and so what happens then you know and all that rural economic impact that could have happened with the full development of that and the running of it and and it functioning as a ranch what happens to all that money you know where does it go?

SPEAKER_04 34:50

Does it leave the rural area you know and does the ranch turn into something else because you can't provide that you know and I think it's that important and so that's scary you know and and I don't know that's where I don't I know we don't want to get into regulations a whole lot but that's that's where it seems to be a disconnect with the governing governoring governing uh departments you know I don't think they understand that you know that all right maybe they do I don't I don't know but that that's that's what's scary to me.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Yeah it's it's a it's a tough subject because you know like Texas is the the home to the largest whitetail population in the world. Yeah y'all got over five million whitetails there. And so there's ecological impact there's conservation efforts there's just like natural hunting heritage you can go through all the list of things and and really I I think to your point like there has to be an economic driver for all the things we've talked about conservation we'll just use that that term and so you mentioned kind of these again these second order effects and so if the guy's not willing to to you know spend the 20 or 30 million dollars to develop this this this ranch not only does it take away from the economic impact of of that local economy right for a long time probably generations but it's got to go somewhere else yeah and so what is that is it a housing development is it a shopping mall and I'm not saying those things are bad I live in a house I've been to a mall right like I'm not saying that's bad but if you look at places that are sparsely populated right in very rural areas you pretty much have a limited amount that you can you can support a a a local economy from right and it's it's either cows right mostly I'm not saying other things won't be there or wildlife and like not a knock against the beef guys I eat a lot of beef cows are boring wildlife is super cool. And like I think all the cattle guys would say that too because they love they love wildlife whatever that is yeah so when you when you look at these regulations it's it's hard to it's hard to know I think we can see pieces of it it's hard to know what that looks like long term and I I think your your reservations are are are accurate right like I I don't know what that looks like yeah um and you're like I know you're in it like what what do you I mean what is the next 10 years for for Texas look like um you know in in this this ranching space like I know it's unknown but like where where does this go?

SPEAKER_04 37:59

Yeah yeah that's a good question you know it's if something doesn't give uh regulatory wise you know the the wildlife management or the wildlife ranches I don't know you know I mean it'll it'll be interesting to see it's it's really tough to say you know I I mean we're talking about tens of thousands of jobs oh yeah like it's not a small thing. Look there's seven you there's generally somewhere around 700,000 whitetail harvested annually in Texas.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

You know I mean it's a gigantic uh economic driver right or conservation driver however you want to look at that it's it's all of that you know and and so I don't know if there's not some uh some common ground found it'll be interesting to see what happens you know I really don't know yeah I I try to I try to read we're we're talking whitetails now um I I try to read some of the the updates coming out of uh Texas Sparks and wildlife and of course everything's you know rules and regs and stuff like that and um I I can't I'm pretty in tune with whitetail management because it's what I do and it's all I do and it's all I've done for a long long time I can't see the long-term vision for what they're trying to do. They I I see immediate reactions I see short-term planning but I don't see long term and and I'm am I missing something or like do is that plan not there's no vision that's I guess what I'm saying yeah it it's confusing because if you all right so I'll give you an example inside the sixth inside the loop of San Antonio with one of the loops all right one of the inner loops there's a park that they hit a positive right there within the so in a breeding facility let me back up a little bit in a breeding facility if a positive is hit there's a five year they go after thing that you know left that facility and come into that facility past five years.

SPEAKER_04 40:15

So we're gonna jump back to this park. All right so they were deer triple teed which is a trap transport uh and translocate uh permit right out of this park within the past five years a couple of times well nothing uh they never went after those deer they never identified the landowners or anything right okay so that's one thing well on a high fence ranch if I'm in a trace period I get a herd plan and they're gonna want me to test 256 white tailed deer that's a flat number or whatever your 100% of your total estimated population and you don't have a time limit you can do it over a hundred years or you can do it in one year right and so uh I was curious what what is the herd plan for that park right and I did an open records request and there is no herd plan for the park. They do not assign herd plans to low fence properties low fence detections and so but they do in the high fence scenario and so it it's really confusing to me. It's just so to your point what is the plan?

SPEAKER_01 41:27

You know I mean if if it's on this end if it's wide open if on this end it's heavily controlled uh if we're looking at a disease that it's inevitable to spread or it's not unreasonable to believe that the spread has already happened it's been detected from Colorado to Florida and all three you know sure majority of the states um what is the plan and does increase testing is that a solution right no that's not a solution in my mind and so I don't know I mean it's it's really confusing to me I I don't see a solution minded science based plan either I really don't yeah it's it's uh of course I think you and I are both emotionally tied to this as well of course and I suspect there's literally thousands of others that um rely on on you know animals to to make their livelihoods go right but like have they canceled the what'd you call it TTT or TTP? T yeah they did they they stopped that so that's done they were like oh well this is easy okay yeah we're gonna paused yeah yeah paused right yeah um I just uh you had mentioned testing I look at testing and like I don't think anybody has like I don't have an issue testing within reason right like I'm I'm willing to comply with whatever regulations are put on me to to safeguard the spread of CWD right and that's I'm loosely defining that um but when you make it so that it's impossible to do that commerce or to make business you just don't you're not gonna do it anymore right you're you're gonna move on to to something else and so like if we if it's good for inside the fence it's good for outside the fence because chronic waste and disease does not know the difference between the fence sides because there are no fence sides. And I think I think you know like there's enough fence in Texas that the state's fenced right like they're they're like I for 40 years like Texas invented high fence. They didn't invent it but you know what I mean um it's synonymous there and I just I can't I can't get past what an I I again as not being a Texan, I I I don't understand the magnitude of this, but I'm starting to I'm starting to understand it. Like this is massive. It's just it's the biggest thing that's ever happened in the state of Texas outside of finding oil. I'm I'm gonna go with that. Um yeah, I I don't I'm just I'm making commentary, but it's it's it's so hard to process, right? Um because like we see we see other states acting in a rational manner, using science-based systems to uh manage CWD, right? And sounds like Texas is in this eradication phase. Well, I'm sorry, we have 50, 60 years of history. CWD, at least as of today, cannot be quote unquote eradicated. At least we I think you and I are both seeing the genetic side of things, and we're saying, I don't know if eradication is possible, but certainly very low prevalence, right? Because like it's okay, it's okay to have some CWD. Like, I just want to repeat that. This is normal, it's okay to have some CWD. You just don't want it continually growing, growing, growing, growing, growing, or spreading, spreading, spreading, right? And so, like, hey, I'm saying this, hey, parks and wildlife, look around, talk to some of your colleagues. There are really good projects going on uh across the United States, you know, like get back in the USDA plan, uh, you know, the HCP plan. It's a good program. It's it was designed by like the top experts in the field. It's working in like, you know, 25 states that it's implemented in, and it provides some some good common sense safeguards. So it would just be really, really nice to, you know, open up my newsfeed on the computer or on my phone and and see something positive as opposed to all these, just every story or every every uh video I see is just negative, negative, negative. And I I I think they're gonna I think they're gonna break the state.

SPEAKER_04 46:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

I think they're gonna break the state.

SPEAKER_04 46:17

Yeah. Yeah, what's scary? Like I look at it as uh you know, CWD can move a million different ways, right? All these different parts. And and there's many of them that go unmonitored. And and some of them there's no way to monitor, right? Like, but you look at the breeders and the the volume of testing, it's like, okay, well, this is by far the most proactive group, right? They're they're monitoring for CWD at higher rates than anybody exponentially in the world. In the world, yeah, exactly. But it's for whatever reason, and in Texas, it's almost like you're held to perfection, right? Like they like we we cut it to zero chance of moving CWD or having positives or those things, and that's what I don't understand. Is that all right, this disease moves so many different ways. There's been 700,000, 600,000 plus uh animals harvested annually for however many years, you know, and those carcasses have been moved all over the state for years. It's just absolutely crazy to me and to expect perfection, you know. And at some point, I think you have to say, hey, we can't expect perfection, right? Like this the spread is inevitable. And and like I said, it's my opinion, it's it's here, it's been here. Uh and so you know, at some point I feel like you have to say, okay, this testing volume isn't enough. That is that's it's enough. Is it gonna catch a hundred percent? No, it's not gonna catch a hundred percent, but it is way more proactive than any other thing this disease moves and helps monitor. And so let's, you know, this is it, this is the mark, right? And like I would like to see the well going back to those release sites, those ranches is the scariest part to me when you start risking those properties. You know, at some point we have to get to, I feel like we have to get to we got to cut that risk out. Like this breeders testing enough. Once it's released, it's over. Right? There's we can't tie up these properties and and devalue them to a certain crazy amount, you know, because of a detection or a possible detection or having to go in and kill a hundred percent of your population over a period of time is and and test it, you know. It's crazy to me. So I I hope that one day it gets there. Who knows?

SPEAKER_01 48:47

Yeah, I'm not I'm not sure who needs to hear it or who needs to be affected by it for that to change. And I'm not up on the internal um politics in in Texas at all. But apparently the right person hasn't been harmed yet. Yeah. Um, but it's coming. If if if they stay the course, it'll happen. And you know, who who knows? They might try to keep it quiet or sweep it under the rug, but that just doesn't that doesn't work in the in the um in the internet age, right? Like there is no, there are no secrets anymore. It's not it's not possible. Um but hopefully some sunlight somewhere gets shined on this thing bright enough that everybody can see it, it becomes exposed, and that there is there is change uh for the betterment of whitetail. Because like, and I'm I am not discounting anybody that's been affected by this or the people, but the thing that hurts the most is the white-tailed deer. And that's what that's what the regulators don't understand. The thing that hurts the most is the the it's the detriment of the whitetailed deer. Because without without hunters, the the white-tailed deer, I don't want to say it doesn't exist, but it doesn't exist in its its form today. Yeah, we can you can point to any species you want in the world that's kind of got to an uh an endangered level, if you will. You know, you can look at elephants and you can look at rhinos and you can look at the big cats over in Africa. Heck, you can look at the white-tailed deer in the early 1900s, and you know, common sense science-backed solutions um changed the population dynamics to make it the most prolific species uh in in North America by far. I mean, you can't go from a hundred thousand white-tailed deer 120 years ago to 30 to 34 million today and and not look back and say, well, here's the things we did. Yeah, and it was common sense regulation backed by science. Yeah, that was it. And so again, hopefully that sunlight shines. Um yeah, that's it's uh I I didn't I didn't know our conversation was gonna go down that road because um you know we started on the uh the Axis tier, which I I enjoyed, I enjoyed that. And yeah, I love talking white tails. I just hate talking about CWD, even though it's like the only the only thing we do. Um but I I hope I hope y'all um start pulling through that and and there's some sort of resolution that that comes out of that that's that's good for uh good for all the guys down there. So yeah, sure. Well, Chris, I uh I appreciate you coming on the show and chatting with me about access. I uh I think I could probably score one, which is which is a good thing. And um I look forward to seeing some uh some big 180s running around in your pastures.

SPEAKER_04 51:56

Yeah, man. I appreciate you having me on. Yeah, you bet.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Ladies and gentlemen, as always, stay tuned for another episode of the Deer Wizard Podcast.